Dan Snow's History Hit - My Dad Wrote a History Hit!

Episode Date: March 13, 2022

In this special episode Dan Snow teams up with Alice Levine, Jamie Morton and James Cooper from My Dad Wrote A Porno to chat about all things sex and history. Expect slow thrusting, Henry The Eighth sexual slander and more filth than you can shake a bread dildo at.You have the power to do something incredible this Red Nose Day. Whether it’s a little or a lot, the money you donate will help tackle poverty, take action against violence and bring an end to discrimination. Give now at comicrelief.com/podcastmashup, alternatively Text PODCAST to 70210 to give £10 today.To donate £10 text the word PODCAST to 70210. Texts cost your donation amount plus your standard network message charge and 100% of your donation will go to Comic Relief, a registered charity. You must be 16 or over and please ask the bill-payer’s permission. For full terms and conditions visit comicrelief.com/podcastmashup"If you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! To download the History Hit app please go to the Android or Apple store.

Hi, buddy. Welcome to Dan Snow's History It. What an extraordinary episode of the podcast I've got for you now. This is a mash-up. This is a mash-up for Comic Relief. Here in the UK, we have a festival of comedy. We make fools out of ourselves. We wear red noses. We do stupid things, all to raise money for charity. For this Comic Relief, I have been matched up with My Dad Wrote a Porno. It is one of the world's biggest podcasts. It's hosted by Jamie Morton, James Cooper, and Alice Levine. And each episode features Jamie Morton reading a new chapter of an amateur erotic novel written by his father under the pen name Rocky Flintstone.

You're going to hear him describing just how this podcast began and how this mad journey began. They need no introduction because, as I say, they are one of the most famous trio in broadcasting. It was a great honour to be asked to come on the podcast and deconstruct some of Rocky Flintstone's historical references. He's obviously, as you'll hear, a big fan of history. So let's crack on. This is my Dan Snow's history hit, mashed up with my dad wrote A Porno. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to a very special podcast mashup between my dad wrote a porno and Dan Snow's history hit, all in aid of comic relief. This Red Nose Day, donations will help

people here in the UK and around the world live free from poverty, violence, discrimination, and support them with their mental health. This includes helping people right now in Ukraine and the mass displacement of people in many parts of the world. Head to comicrelief.com slash podcast mashup to give what you can now. Enjoy the show. Hi guys, this is fun. Hey, how's it going? Hi Dan Snow. This is, I mean, an unusual combination. I'm sure you'll agree. I'm not sure it is. In fact, I think the Venn diagram of middle-aged, pornographically-minded authors and fans of military history is pretty complete.

So don't worry, I think we might be among friends. How has it taken us so long? Well, I mean, I've been a big fan for years, guys. I don't know, I've been waiting for the call. Dan, we're looking at you. You seem to be in a hotel room. Where are you right now? What's going on?

Yeah, I wish I was there in person with you guys. Although when I did meet up with you guys in person, I did feel a little bit average the following day. So maybe it's best that we're conducting this remotely. You all got drunk without me. What were you drinking? It was Christmas. It was Christmas and I can't make any further comment. We drank all

of Christmas. Dan was on the baby sham. He was loving it. Yeah, we were all at a Christmas party together and we all got on like a house on fire so we thought we should do a little mashup. And here we are. It's amazing. It's one of those bizarrely crap Christmas party ideas. It's actually come true. It's amazing. Yeah, I know. I'll definitely email you, mate. Yeah, yeah. And it's actually

happening. I can't believe it. I bet you were like, there's no way they'll remember. And then, bing, Monday morning. Cool. So you did kind of verbally promise this one. But you're not at home. What are you up to? I'm in Cape Town.

I'm on my way to Antarctica. I'm going to... Wow. Yeah, I'm going on this huge research vessel into the roughest waters on planet Earth. Stormy seas. And we're going to look for a shipwreck a famous shipwreck endurance shackleton's shipwreck which he which sank in the antarctic and

he had to take the small boats on an epic journey of survival back to civilization and we're going to try and find it on the seabed 3 000 meters down wow that is incredible and this is your warm-up for that this this is my this is my Everest, actually. That will be easy, I think. For the perverts who listen to our podcast and may not be familiar with yours, Dan, although why would they not? It's huge. What's History Hit all about?

Well, it's basically, the good thing about history is everything that ever happened to anyone who's ever lived on this planet. So we go all the way back. But there's plenty of content. Plenty of content. The problem with you is you rely on the pen. You rely on the pen of an overwhelmed human being.

So foolish. I mean, you know, so I go, look, I saw those guys. It looks like hard work to me. So I can go Stone Age to Nuclear Age, Digital Age, and we talk about history. My favourite episodes are kind of ones where we take a big thing going on in the world at the moment, like Ukraine, Israel-Palestine, Boris Johnson being an absolute idiot, and we kind of look at the historical context for those things. How did that all come to be?

But, you know, we talk about sex in Pompeii. We talk about, you know, goodness knows, everything. Everything that's ever happened. So history in its widest sense. Wow. So we really are like the highbrow and the lowbrow here because we just talk about terrible porn. Yeah, the explanation the other way is actually harder.

So for Dan's listeners tuning into this. For listeners that haven't heard of porno, exactly what do you do? Well, my dad dad when he was a builder from Northern Ireland when he retired he thought that he would be like E.L. James and write an erotic novel that would sell millions and he'd become a huge global success um he sold four ebooks but one of the people that he sent it to was me and because it was the most unintentionally hilarious book I'd ever read um I just had to share it with my mates two of whom are here Alice and James and so we basically just read a chapter of my dad's book every week and critique it

comment on it try and give it some context you know elevate the material if we can and the jokes kind of become on us because dad has become one of the most successful pornographic writers in history. Writers, you could say. Writers at all. Exactly. Yeah. So we've kind of created a monster, but a beautiful monster. No, you have. I mean, you're one of the biggest podcasts in the world. You're right. You are part of podcast history. So it's great to have you on history because you have, you have made history on that podcast podcasts it's absolutely oh my god Dan

will be talking about us one day on his podcast about the history of podcasts so with this mashup we thought it'd be a good idea to to mix sex and history and talk about the history of pornography sex throughout throughout time um one thing we wanted to talk to you about is because obviously Rocky thinks he was the first person to ever write an erotic novel. And for context, that's Rocky Flintstone for your fans, Dan. Rocky Flintstone, yes. That's my dad's pen name.

But is that the case? I mean, how far back does pornography go? Is it a fairly new phenomenon or does it go back to the cavemen? James is asking for a friend. Asking for a friend. You will be surprised to learn that people have been obsessed with sex

since the beginning of time. In fact, in fact... No. Yeah, no, this is, this is, it's like huge if true, is that people, human beings, and that's what's so wonderful about history. In a way, some things have changed so dramatically. Obviously our technology,

some of our kind of ideas about the world and religion. But amazingly, so much of what drives us hasn't changed. Our passion to reproduce to have sex to you know enjoy the touch of another human for example to to eat all those things have remained consistent and so sure enough wherever you find human beings writing sculpting carving in the past you find pornography you find um erotica i believe is the posh word describe it that's the posh word yeah we do in the British Museum. That's the posh word, yeah. We do skirt away from that word because it doesn't fit for Dad, but yes.

Apologies. We're going to cancel that. So in kind of ye olde bus stops and bus shelters, you'll find ye olde pornography stuffed layers and layers into the peat. Even before ye olde and before days of yore, actually way back to ancient Rome, which is, you know, the beginning of most people's kind of... They were doing it.

They were doing it then. If you go to Pompeii and Herculaneum, the two cities engulfed by Vesuvius nearly 2,000 years ago, there is just erotica all over those streets. Like, it's bonkers. There's just penises everywhere. I mean, there are. What?

It's funny that you're laughing because I actually think that this was known. Like, it's just, there are just penises all over the shop. So were they all just like 12-year-old boys in maths class? Like, what's the deal? They were just drawing dicks everywhere over everything that they owned. Well, that's a good point, actually.

I mean, historians debate this kind of stuff all the time. It makes sense. And we're glad to join the debate. Yeah, some of it's kind of pure art. Some of it's kind of, you know, around iconography and hope at fertility, a lot of issues around fertility and people wanting to have babies and people wanting to have sex. So, but there are quite a lot of brothels in Pompeii that people discovered. And they show women in a variety of sexual positions, I think you'd describe it as.

I think Rocky Flintstone would obviously, as the expert, be able to probably call them all out and describe them in detail. stone would obviously as the expert would be able to probably call them all out and describe them in detail but you know you also get like murals with information about services like specific services that people would perform prostitutes would perform sex really yeah clients and clients appraisal of women as well so clients talking about particular uh women there's one famous bit of graffiti that says thrust slowly which i you know is definitely a take I think that's, I mean, it's advice that has stood the test of time. You would hear that now. Trust me. It does ring a bell. All right. And then there's another one. My favourite is Euplia was here with 2000 beautiful men. And she apparently we're told in the list of prices, sucks.

It costs five, effectively, you know, of the Roman currency, like five quid, basically, for her to suck you off. So we know that. So good old Euclia. Her name has become immortalised. Yeah. So do you think there was something more respectable about drawing penises on everything than, as Jamie says,

now when you see it on a bathroom door or a textbook? Yeah, I think we do, right? I think that because we're so weird about sex we think of ourselves as really really kind of liberated but also we're really weird about sex so it's really funny and interesting that your podcast is like one of the biggest podcasts in the world but like why not everyone is obsessed and fascinated by sex and wants to talk about it and listen to other people talk like I find it very emancipating listening to you guys talking about it and you know it's not it's not shame it's not like so and yet everyone's like oh what a surprise oh goodness me like why is that a surprise that's mainly us down to be fair i was gonna say our byline for the podcast should be you think they're really liberated about sex but they're actually just

really weird about it i think that probably does sum it up we do try and be uh sex positive and open-minded but throw three prudes in a room and you know you don't know what's going to happen we have been called by the americans the ron harry and hermione of pornography um that's brutal you know it really is i thought the romans are kind of famous for their orgies and stuff how much of that has been overstated throughout time or is it just one big as dad would say fuck fest one it's one big fuck fest you know the answer is it's very hard to be sure um a lot of historians and chroniclers at the time like they do today use sex and like sexual deviance as a way of kind of criticizing and trying to destroy someone's legacy there are obviously reliable accounts of the imperial palace

people having orgies there but you know there were those like in france was a big court case a couple years ago about that guy from the world bank you know, there were those, like in France, there was this big court case a couple of years ago about that guy from the World Bank. He was in, like, there seemed like quite a lively orgy scene among the elite in France. You know, I'm reading that as my, like, doing my kids' nappies at five in the morning thinking, something's just gone wrong here.

Like, I'm living in a new forest surrounded by dirty nappies. That's a fascinating point, though, about early sex shaming. That's kind of a mad thought. That's crazy. We think of that as such a fascinating point, though, about early sex shaming. That's kind of a mad thought. That's crazy. We think of that as such a contemporary phenomenon, but that's always happened. Oh, yeah, definitely. So Tiberius, the Roman emperor, was said by a biographer.

He used to be a kind of young, virile soldier, like hero of Roman empire. He got a bit old and a bit sort of fat and greedy. And he used to apparently get young boys to swim in his swimming pool at Capri and nibble on his genitals. And that was a sign by his biography. Like, it could be true, but it also just could be them saying,

look, he became a sort of depraved old man. Yeah. The bit that bothers me is nibble. The nibbling, yeah. No, there's no suggestion it was any more. It's just kind of like a little sort of fishy-like kiss. Fishy kiss? There's one for Rocky.

He gave him a fishy kiss. And so, yeah, it's tied up with politics. Sex is about politics and control and power. And I guess it always is. Well, which is a bit like Belinda Blinked, you know. It's a business tool in many ways to sell some pots and pans. So there's some sort of equivalent. So I'm just trying to find some equivalent with Belinda Blinked.

James is right. Certainly when we started reading these books, there were lots of discussions around the protagonist, Belinda Blumenthal, who is the sales director of Steals, Pots and Pans. For those that listen and for those that don't, this just sounds like weird white noise. But, you know, she shags her way around the world. She uses her sexuality as a tool. It's something she loves. It's something she really enjoys enjoys she's in control of it and lots of people were not sure how to feel about that so yeah i think it's it's just something that we're still talking about now which kind of blows my mind yeah it's really difficult with history

and this belinda is a great example of this but it's like we're told that people like caston the great who by the way the horse thing is a complete and utter myth and a like disgraceful misogyny but she was sexually active like any other monarch she had lovers, usually monogamous series of favourites of lovers, or of a famous French aristocrat in the 18th century. And it was said these women were sexually voracious. And what we don't know is whether they were unusually sexually active and happy with that and having a perfectly normal and lovely time, or whether that is just trying to sort of delegit delegitimize them take away their power or their influence like it's very hard for us to know that's what makes it so fascinating is you kind of you're trying to

read these sources you're trying to work out nearly all written by men like what are the men trying to do with that Belinda is just the latest of many high-profile women who've been written about what is Rocky trying to do with that? I mean, we ask ourselves that constantly. What was he trying to do? And on the other side of that, was Elizabeth I's reputation of being the virgin queen to kind of give her more power, if being seen as sexually promiscuous or active was to diminish a woman? Was this virginal depiction of the queen to elevate her status? Yeah, that's really difficult i think she was trying to say first of all i'm marrying england i am faithful only to england like so

so i'm it's not some also the idea of like a foreign prince because you often marry foreigners so she's like i'm not going to marry some french guy right my sister married a spanish prince like philip um i'm going to remain chaste and pure for england yeah and i'm not going to be kind of yeah it's like the idea that in a court full of men that she remains, like, untouchable. Like, it's super weird and difficult when you think about it, but that was definitely part of her mystique. And was it true?

Like, was she a virgin, do you think? Or do we not know? Well, we don't know. I think she... We don't know. She definitely formed really close male friendships with Glimmery when she was younger. She had favourites.

I mean, she may have done a bit of shagging, but sadly, we don't know. I love that we think that Dan't know. She definitely formed really close male friendships, particularly when she was younger. She had favourites. And she, I mean, she may have done a bit of shagging, but sadly, we don't know. I love that we think that Dan will know. Like, nobody knows, but Dan knows. Dan's like, yeah, she shagged. Actually, she shagged. She shagged. Unlike her dad, of course,

who famously got married six times. And people often think Henry VIII was a great shagger. In fact, I think that possibly the opposite is true. I think he had problems in the sex department. In fact, yeah, there's a brilliant story. Anne Boleyn at a trial, such a weird moment. Anne Boleyn's brother was on trial for having sex with his sister, incest, right?

And many of the best and the brightest in the land were gathered to watch this trial. And Henry's lawyer went up to him and said, don't read this out to everyone, but this is apparently something that Anne told you. And he looked down and went, what? Henry VIII can't get it up and is crap in bed you know I'm paraphrasing the entire room just burst out laughing like it was just a great moment that a human that's something that actually

happened during the trial that's utterly utterly humiliating so he struggled um to have sex I think but many of his forebears didn't obviously Edward IV was a the dad of the Prince of the Tower, was an absolute shagger. It was said that he... Top shagger. I mean, top shagger. Top shagger. Hashtag top lad. Apparently, one of the reasons that the people of London

let him back in was because the women of London wanted to jump back in his bed when he thought he was involved in a civil war. What services to shagging allowed him back in? Basically, basically. I mean, he was a beautiful young man, but he really let himself go. I mean, he went for it, he was a beautiful young man, but he really let himself go. I mean, he went for it.

Fair play. He gorged on everything life had to offer. I love the way Dan talks about these people like they're old mates. He's like, God, yeah, he was a great lad. Beautiful, beautiful. Really let himself go. But what a top guy.

But this is why historians basically gossip about dead people, right? And so just like, you know, when we run out of people to gossip about ourselves, we can draw on everyone in the past. That's what makes life so enjoyable i'll tell you what alexander great what a weirdo so um dan's just down the pub with all his mates and then you go down you're like oh they're all in his head he's bought pints for five different people no one's

sat there all right let's go he's on the bull's really... This is getting a little close to the bone, guys. But he, ironically, Edward IV, the shagger, kicked his cousin, Henry VI, off the throne. Henry VI was, poor thing, one of our sort of less alpha kings. And he and his wife had to be joined by a sex coach. They had trouble procreating for years, and they had to get some advice in, I think. And both of them would have been virgins

and it would have been quite complicated. I actually think my dad says that his dad had to consult a doctor when he got married because he didn't know how to have sex. And I'm sure he's going to be over the moon that you've said that. Sorry, dad. But we're living in a kind of time now

which is post-Rocky Flintstones. So everybody has the manual they need to work out how to do it. So it's fine. People won't encounter those problems. Public service. What were the early examples of contraception, like condoms and things like that?

When did they kind of start being introduced? People have used the most really difficult condoms over the years. I mean, lamb intestines. Oh, wow. Oiled paper. I'd go the oiled paper over lamb intestines i mean that's not saying anything i don't know i think i'd go lamb intestines i think it's funny other lads are all like i think you might get the feels more would be uh that's very interesting maybe because i'm

a vegetarian i don't know that's absolutely it maybe maybe the three of us just all went oh i don't know about that piece of meat putrid meat is what you would do for the feel i guess for his pleasure yeah fine you're adding the putrid there i mean intestines are never the sweetest smelling of meats we're having too much of a nice time we should pause for a second this is a great sex education slash history class two lessons which aren't usually a hybrid. But we are here for a very special reason. Yes, this mashup episode is specially for Comic Relief. Other shows involved include The Football Ramble, The Guilty Feminist, Homo Sapiens, Off Menu,

Films To Be Buried With, and loads and loads of other great podcasts. So you have the power to do something incredible this Red Nose Day, whether it's a little or a lot. The money you donate will help tackle poverty, take action against violence and bring an end to discrimination. Give now at comicrelief.com slash podcast mashup or text podcast to 70210 to give £10 today. Text costs your donation amount plus your standard network message charge and 100% of your donation will go to Comic Relief, a registered charity. You must be 16 or over and please ask the bill payers permission.

For full terms and conditions, visit comicrelief.com forward slash podcast mashup. I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Alan Orjanaga. And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries. The gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research from the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings. Normans. Kings and popes. Who were rarely the best of friends.

Murder. Rebellions. And crusades. Find out who we really were. By subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Wherever you get your podcasts we have a character in the books called the duchess uh the duchess of epsom actually actually first question is there a duchess of eom? I don't think there is, no. Thank God, because there'll be a huge defamation suit coming.

She, in her country pile, she has a room dedicated full of dildos. Different types, different materials, different sizes. Anything you can imagine. It's a confection. We were interested to know what the history is of dildos. Kind of what maybe some of the earliest dildos were i think she has a wooden one were there wooden dildos in the past things like that go on dan talk to us about dildos yay well yeah i rarely talk about anything else really

you know it's quite because we find quite a few phalluses penis shaped thingsshaped things. We found them from the Stone Age. Although, then again, penises look like lots of other things as well. So there is a temptation to, like, find a little blob of something from the Stone Age and go, there's two people shagging. It's like, I mean, it's got lumps and bumps, but, I mean, I guess it could be. So we're a bit, it's also really difficult to kind of work it out. But there have been dildos that are found through history.

Amazingly, lots of people seem to make dildos out of bread. Oh. What? Yeah, I know. Stale bread? Fresh bread? I think the key thing to remember, folks, is before today, we were a materially poor culture.

Most people didn't have much stuff, so you just had to use whatever came to hand, right? Danny, you sure it wasn't just a baguette? Yes. These archaeologists have found a baguette went filth. Absolute filth, clearly. A huge dildo. Yeah, huge dildo.

Yeah, so dildos are very common and women would make their own dildos. There's an amazing one I once saw in the 18th century. It looks like an egg whisk and it was sort of a vibrator. That's like when you get mechanical vibration introduced as well. They'd whisk themselves off. Wow. Whisk themselves off. mechanical vibration introduced as well they'd whisk themselves off wow that sounds like there would probably be a lot of fatalities from the the early vibrator do you mean the end was like a whisk

or like the mechanism the mechanism you know when the mechanism right fine okay we're on the same page good okay it's a workout and a great time for yourself i was thinking i guess it's trial and error but for the the error involved in the early ones oh wow so again this idea that we're living in our most progressive time perhaps not because perhaps the idea of female masturbation is now more of a taboo than it was in the past yes i think there've been times when it's been very too i mean the eighth the 19th century i know the victorians come in for a hard time and they're they're on the whole it was both a time of prudishness but also you know lots of sexuality lots of pornography loads but I mean the 19th century, I know the Victorians come in for a hard time and they're on a whole, it was both a time of prudishness but also lots of sexual activity,

lots of pornography, loads of Victorian porn. But they, like Florence Nightingale, writes extensively about trying to avoid masturbating. I mean, it was like a fucking sun up to sundown. It was her personal Everest. And she was like, you know. Yeah, it was like, it's like Jerry Maguire.

It is a struggle that you will never ever know and so she never succumbed to it well no I think she did that's the problem so she did she said and then she hates herself and beats up about it oh god oh Flo Flo just it's tough tough times and you you mentioned Victorian pornography is that just like oh look at that ankle look at that is it a real close-up of an ankle bone? Do you know what? Actually, this is niche content, but I actually really like Victorian pornography

because it's just like, it's just brilliant. It's brilliant photographs. Dan, we're recording. We're recording, Dan, just so you know. It's just live, yeah. So it's just photographs of like brilliantly human-looking people. They haven't worked out that they need to like, it's not like modern pornography

where it's not what most of us actually look like and the things we do it's just like Victorian pornography is like amusingly normal looking people just like shagging or like going for a bicycle ride and like with nice scenery in a little photographer's studio or like lifting weights or doing some flower arranging and and it's like you know they've got loads of body hair and they look like you know so it's kind of it's great I really it. I just love the idea of flower arranging being a big part of the setup. I'm less concerned about the bodies. I'm more like, yeah, that's fun for me. Like, oh yeah, we know the classic, the plumber came around to fix a sink.

But what about like, I'm arranging my peonies. Alice is Googling as we speak. Yeah, I'm like, I think this could make a comeback. It'll be amazing how many of my guests, when I'm talking to them remotely, end up Googling while I speak. This is not my first time I've heard that. You just see that glazed expression. Alice isn't actually Googling. She's just setting up her OnlyFans account,

which is just her and the flowers. I feel like if you're into it, other people are into it. That's all I'm saying. Alice, if you think about it, they were using studios because the camera's quite unwieldy and the lighting rig and everything. So we're using studios where you do your family portraits.y and the lighting rig and everything so we're using studios that where you do your family portraits so all that kind of victoriana that we're used to like a nice pleasant countryside scene or flowers or the little pedestal with the little you know hanging basket off it that you get when

your great great grandma or whatever went for her family they just they chuck the porn in afterwards use the same set and that's why you get these yeah these kind of really weird scenes yeah okay this is already the most educational episode we've ever done and i imagine the least you've ever done or this is me it's this top content have you guys since um james started googling victorian porn he hasn't spoken damn just give me five more minutes and also we can't say i'm just beginning to think that rocky's just hiding loads of easter eggs So we can't say... Can you turn your camera back on, bud? I'm just beginning to think that Rocky's just hiding loads of Easter eggs in the books that we're not getting. He's a historian, basically.

Yeah, essentially. I actually... Folks, I've been listening to your podcast for years. I completely agree. My dad is a real history buff, actually, because he went to the same school as the Duke of Wellington. Do you mean at the same time? I think they missed by two or three years. He was in upper sixth. Yeah, yeah of Wellington. Do you mean at the same time? I think they missed by like two or three years.

He was in upper sixth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure, sure. He was a lowly year seven, Alice. He couldn't possibly approach him. Yeah, he does pepper the books with references that honestly sometimes go over our heads. You see, I giggle at the parts

that you guys don't even know is funny. So you're getting double giggle from me. That's the thing. When you guys are like the Siege of Mafeking, you skip over to the next funny bit. I'm still roaring about that. know can we talk about that specifically because i still am not really sure what the relief of mafeking is i might just like give us a bit of context of how it appeared in the books if that's okay so um this happens in book two chapter nine to be exact everybody um bella shook her head as her clitoris became wet sir james increased the

pressure and his fingers slid through her nub bella drank her chardonnay and saw belinda return braless from the ladies talk about the relief of mafeking thought bella i'm matt lewis and i'm dr eleanor. And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries. The gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research from the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings. Normans. Kings and popes.

Who were rarely the best of friends. Murder. Rebellions. And crusades. Find out who we really were. By subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Wherever you get your podcasts. What's he on about, Dan?

As ever, I'm not absolutely sure I know exactly what he's talking about. But the reference to Mather King, it's always called the Reef Government, Mather King. Basically, it was a siege in the Boer War in about 1900. It went on for 217 days. It had everything the Brits love. Quite a few toffs, a hopeless stand against the odds. They were surrounded by the Boers, who are these white South Africans, these descendants of Dutch settlers in South Africa.

The Brits and the Boers were sort of fighting it out for control of South Africa. And it was very celebrated because Baden-Powell, you might have heard of. Oh yeah, the Scouts. The Scouts, yeah. He was in charge. And through sort of plucky heroism against the odds, the Brits kind of held out and they were then relieved. And because the war was going really particularly bad for the Brits at this time, it was bigged up. They gave out those Victoria Crosses and it was sort of made a big thing of. so for a certain generation mafeking became a kind of byword for plucky british underdog success and so for someone schooled in that kind of 1950s 60s 70s everyone would have heard about that it would

have been absolute and then the boy scouts were founded partly as a result a few years later but it's interesting now no one's ever heard of it anymore right so it's this is this is porn written by a certain generation for a certain generation i would suggest but i think you guys already knew that so we're just the wrong people to be reading it is what you're saying it makes perfect sense for somebody in their 60s guys your podcast is listened to unironically by people in their 60s no wonder emma thompson loved it so much yeah i don't know if you know that but yeah this is that's just that's just how prose works for that generation. I'm so glad we've cleared that up once and for all. So it's a byword for being an underdog, basically.

Yeah. Actually, Dan, while we're on this train of thought, there's some other stuff, Rocky's reference that we wanted to kind of get your take on, a few other excerpts in the book. There's a very famous one about the Titanic. Oh, yeah. Jamie, if you'd be so kind. Do you want me to read it? Yeah. Okay. This is in book one, chapter 12. Her nipples hardened

with her feeling of freedom, and they were now as large as the three-inch rivets which had held the hull of the fateful Titanic together. I love that line. It marries maritime archaeology, maritime history together with nipples, which is something that I've, you know, it's so daring. Algorithmically, Dan, that was created for you, really, that line. Literally, it's like the people invented the TikTok algorithm, obviously the best algorithm in the world. I've just fed that into my feed, basically.

They know me so well. Also, there's a lively debate, actually, about Titanic's rivets, which I will, Trish, if you've got time, I can share this with you. We've got time. He's jumped headlong. Is this a subreddit? Okay, fine. In fact, yeah, close your mentions for about a week after this one because they're going to come.

People are going to go nuts. Basically, there's a lively debate about whether the rivets were of a high enough quality and whether the Titanic would have survived if they'd used steel rivets in the bow section, for example, and whether they were like in a hurry and they used lower quality iron rivets. And guess what? Lower quality iron rivets, they had too much slag in them. Way too much slag. Oh, man. Watch out.

They had too much slag in them, and so they were a bit weaker. And so the thought is that they've looked at the Titanic on the seabed, and she smashed into the iceberg, which carved that huge gash in the hull. And some of the plates obviously then loosened because these rivets kind of popped out. Now, if you say this to people in Northern Ireland, in Belfast, you need to get on a plane and get out of there very, very quickly. But there is a body of evidence that suggests when she was being built in Belfast, you need to get on a plane and get out there very, very quickly. But there is a body of evidence that suggests when she was being built in Belfast, they did use these iron rivets too

much slag. So really, what dad's saying is that her nipples were hard, but not maximum hardness. Or is it a political statement? Because he's from Northern Ireland. So is he saying there is this discussion, there is this debate? And so is he saying, no, they will rock hard because the rivets that were made were rock hard. Don't come for the rivets. I think that's exactly what he's doing. And as the expression goes in Northern Ireland, the Titanic was fine when it left here. Some Englishman drove it into an iceberg. And I think your dad's come down hard on that side. But I think for his next draft, he might want to replace that

with like a depleted uranium rivets or something like that. And use a kind of anti-tank missile reference there. But you know, it's up to him. I'll be honest, Dan, when he tries to use a contemporary reference or tries to bring it up to date, it doesn't go well.

But yeah, we can definitely suggest something. I mean, this is making me really think that the joke is on us, guys. Because if there are all these legitimate reasons why dad has put these metaphors... References. References in his books, then fuck, he is a genius.

Do you worry that having Dan here is the first time we've ever fully understood your dad? Well, we thought that we'd destroy Dan's podcast. He's destroying our podcast. This has backfired horribly. You have no idea how often I act as a translator between my friends and their parents. Dan's podcast. He's destroying our podcast. This has backfired horribly. You have no idea how often I act as a translator between my friends and their parents. I understand him so much more now, Dan. Thank you.

It's an obscure reference to World War I aviation, but we can, yeah, let's move on. I think what he means by that is, I love you. Yeah, exactly. Well, we were laughing, well, we were laughing, like, very early in the book when Dad wrote that somebody's breasts fell freely like pomegranates, which we found hilarious. And the pomegranate has kind of become the unofficial symbol

of the Belinda Blinked books. But pomegranates actually are quite a well-known symbol for sexuality and fertility, right, throughout history? Yes, they are absolutely and you think of persephone and the pomegranates when she's carried off by hades down to the underworld and and she's progress but we've got so many slang terms for breasts your dad you know he's in a very rich tradition and i there's amazing uh social media tiktok account run by a woman called kate lister who's a a brilliant academic and she the other day put through a

posted video with a list of things that breasts have been called. We've got the 18th century love hillocks. The Tudors called them duckies. Duckies, I like that. The one I quite like is Cupid's kettle drums. Oh, wow. That's amazing.

Yeah, that's a good one. Really unpleasant, 1970s lung warts. Oh, my God. Why would they call them something that is, you know, infected and... Yeah. It's wrong. Who on earth was calling them lung warts? That's disgusting.

Somebody that wasn't getting anywhere near them. 1960s, top bollocks. Oh, okay. Yeah, makes sense. And another one from just before the French Revolution, the apple dumpling shop. Oh, that's nice. That'spling Shop. Oh, that's nice. That's very nice. I think that's nice.

It's better than Top Bollocks, for sure. I'm trying to think what else Rocky's called them over the years. Fan of tits, of course. Yeah, the money tits. He did once describe someone's breasts as falling like the Lehman Brothers, which I quite enjoyed.

Oh, yes. That was quite a good one for Dad. We presume rapidly, dramatically, unexpectedly. Unexpectedly. Bringing down the global financial system. Yeah. The power of the breast. I like the way your dad is obsessed with the Norse gods.

Yes. In a big way. I think they're more sex positive. I think the idea is, unlike the christians who we can all agree i've got an issue around sex you know the virgin mary and all this oh yeah norse gods is his other nearest pantheon of gods that he's comfortable with he's like yep we'll have that it's only about a thousand years old i can borrow that one and i guess he'd say quite sex positive and transgressive and naughty which would suit his canon yeah i was

intrigued when you said that obviously you're going to the antarctica to recover a shipwreck it kind of jogged my memory that my dad did use another famous shipwreck in one of the books and i just want to know if this is possible he said that um in the in the steel spots and pans office one of the brushed antique brass knobs on the door um was beautiful it had beautiful gold threading around the bulb bit and was stunning to touch and see rumors had long circulated that it had been recovered from the mary rose but who knew for real i mean the mary rose is a what a tudorhip. I think we managed to discern that from when we did that episode. So the Mary Roses was Henry VIII's favourite warship.

And it sank, famously, they left the gun ports open and it sank in 1545 and then rose up from the seabed in 1982. So again, for your dad's generation, that would have been an absolutely amazing event. It was one of the most televised events at that point. And for someone of his age, it would be this amazing moment watching that ship come up from the seabed just out of interest though because that's just the doorknob on her office at steals pops and pans how much do you think that object would be worth off the mary rose yeah given its fame oh

that's a very tough question i i mean no one's ever you don't really buy stuff off mirrors because it's all been sort of you know protected and so i don't know how you'd end up it's like saying if you could sell like a part of the crown jewels what they're worth i don't really know but i think it would be worth a brass drum i mean look brass corrodes in seawater as we all know so it's very unlikely to have survived on the bottom of the sun for 400 years okay but it is conceivable that was buried in mud when it sank, so let's just go with that. Okay. And then it's conceivable the museum sold it off

because they were short of cash and they somehow got round the regulations. And so I think it would go for 100 grand, 200 grand. I mean, it'd be very, very valuable. Wow. To then use it as a working door handle feels like a bit of a disgrace, really, doesn't it? As you say, it should be in a glass cabinet. Do you is such a good point i hadn't thought about that yeah legend has it

came from the mary rose well if it did it's one of the most precious items in british history you absolute maniacs what are you doing uh he does say no one knew for real i think we know for real it can't have happened you may know this about um jamie's dad dan but he's he's often covering his back so he will make these sweeping claims and then put in a little caveat that's like but you know it was myth so you can't have me for it in case the estate of the mary rose exactly he obviously felt safe having the brand name mary rose isn't that he normally avoids those like the plague mary rose is public domain it's more than 70 years after the death of the designer, right? So he's fine.

Brilliant. Well, Dan, this has been so much fun and very enlightening. I have to say, we've learned a lot, as to be expected. You've probably not learned anything. I've had a masterclass in broadcasting and podcasting here, guys. What can I say? I don't doubt it. I've learned from three absolute legends.

If this doesn't spawn a kind of mini- of porno hit or you know my dad wrote a history book i think that would be a real shame um but likely we'll just see you drunk at christmas party won't we i hope so but if your dad wants to write viking warrior porn i can be historical consultant no problem at all you've got one subscriber enjoy the antarctica dan hope it all goes well i hope you've got your stash of Victorian pornography to keep you company. Yeah, good. I've printed it out.

I'd run out of colour on my printer, but that's fine. Not a problem. And I'm going to come watch you guys at a live show. So thank you very much for having me on, man. It's so great to see you guys. Yeah, come to the Palladium. And as this is your last chance, Dan,

anything else you want to say about sex? I've just told you every single thing I know about sex and sex and history I'm out I feel the hand of history upon our shoulders All this tradition of ours our school history our songs

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