Dan Snow's History Hit - Notre Dame

Episode Date: August 3, 2025

Join Dan Snow in the heart of Paris as he kicks off his summer series exploring Europe’s greatest historic sites. From a leafy Montmartre café to the towering Gothic Cathedral of Notre-Dame, Dan teams up with local historian and guide Achille Couderc to uncover the deep history of Paris’s Île de la Cité—birthplace of the city. They explore the story of the Notre Dame through the ages - a witness to coronations of kings and Emperors, revolution and a devastating fire in 2019.This is your essential Paris listening before your summer getaway. Upcoming episodes in the series include: Edinburgh Castle, Napoleon's Paris, Pompeii, The Tower of London, Knossos and The Acropolis.You can book a tour with Achille! Email: [e-mail] for more information.Produced by Mariana Des Forges, edited by Dougal Patmore, and the production manager was Beth Donaldson. Join Dan and the team for a special LIVE recording of Dan Snow's History Hit on Friday, 12th September 2025! To celebrate 10 years of the podcast, Dan is putting on a special show of signature storytelling, never-before-heard anecdotes from his often stranger-than-fiction career, as well as answering the burning questions you've always wanted to ask!Get tickets here, before they sell out: https://www.kingsplace.co.uk/whats-on/words/dan-snows-history-hit/We'd love to hear your feedback - you can take part in our podcast survey here: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on.You can also email the podcast directly at [e-mail].

Hello folks, Dan Snow here. I am throwing a party to celebrate 10 years of Dan Snow's history hit. I'd love for you to be there. Join me for a very special live recording of the podcast in London, in England, on the 12th of September to celebrate the 10 years. You can find out more about it and get tickets with the link in the show notes. Look forward to seeing you there. Hi folks, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. You find me sitting at a street café. I'm shaded by leaves and the canopy. It is a perfect blue sky day here in the vibrant historic neighbourhood of Montmartre in Paris.

We're having a slow morning up here watching Parisian life go by and this is something that Van Gogh, Picasso, Renoir enjoyed in this part of town on these cobbled streets with its vibrant cafe culture and its art galleries. We walked up this morning, me in sensible footwear, Mariana the producer, wearing Birkenstocks. We're here because, well, no excuse needed really, because life is beautiful, life is short, and where else do you want to be at the height of summer than in Paris? City of lovers and poets, and frustrated military conquerors. And actually lots of you have been in touch and there are many of you who are planning on coming to Paris over the coming weeks, either from the UK or elsewhere in Europe or from Canada and the US,

to live out your dream European summer vacation. And for those of you who are looking for a podcast before you set off, to give you a bit of history, a bit of context, a bit of inspiration, well this is your podcast folks. I'm going to be your guide to Europe this summer. Over the coming weeks I'm going to be traveling around, I'm going to team up with local experts to bring you the stories behind some of Europe's biggest and most important historic sites. We're daring to cross beneath the portcullis of the Tower of London. We're climbing up to the mighty

Acropolis. We are entering the Colosseum. You should see it Maximus in Rome. And we're wandering the ruins of Canossus. So if you're looking for a travel guide or you need a bit of summer escapism, this podcast is your essential summer listening. It's difficult for a Brit to admit, but where else are you going to start your European tour? Other than in Paris, the city of light. First up, we're going a fair way back in history. We're going to go to the world's most famous cathedral, those gothic towers looming 70

metres into the sky. One that has captured the imagination of writers and artists for centuries, including one Victor Hugo who wrote a little novel about a hunchback who lives in one of those bell towers. I'm talking about Notre Dame. But first of all, me and the team are going to finish our coffee here. We're going to walk down to the Seine, past the Moulin Rouge, and we're going to meet a local historian and guide, Achille Koudarque, to explore the heart of the city

and tell its incredible story. This podcast is for those of us fellow travelers who wish that there were more plaques, more interpretation on historic sites. We got you covered. Let's do it, folks. Bonne découverte. Let's do it, folks. Bonne découverte.

I've come to the heart of the city, the geographical but also historic heart. I'm right by the banks of the river Seine, but the Seine here is very narrow because it's just one branch of the river. The other branch is just a few hundred meters away to the north. This is an island that sits in the middle of the Seine. This is the reason that Paris is where it is. This island was a crossing point.

This island was defensible. This is what attracted humans to first settle here, trade here, and defend themselves here. This is called Ile de Cité. It's the birthplace of the city. And this is why, if you love history, this is one of those acres of planet Earth where the history is so densely packed,

it's amazing we can walk around it at all. It's up there with Jerusalem, it's up there with Rome. Just think of the people that have stood on this little island where I am now. Julius Caesar conquered it. This was the island that was attacked by the Vikings, maybe even the semi-mythical Ragnar Lothbrok. This is the island that was visited by a who's who of the people of medieval Europe.

Richard the Lionheart, William the Marshal, Louis XIV would have crossed these bridges and Napoleon crowned himself. Charles de Gaulle came straight here when he took part in the liberation of Paris in 1944. Today, the island is dominated by Notre Dame, the cathedral of the city of Paris in 1944. Today the island is dominated by Notre Dame, the cathedral of the city of Paris. It's a masterpiece of Gothic architecture but it's actually a symbol as we've really learned since the fire in 2019 it's a symbol of Parisian resilience, of beauty. There's a big open space in front of the

western end of Notre Dame and it's now full of people craning up to look at this magnificent building. You can look up at those two towers that are so famous, that huge rose window in the middle, the legendary gargoyles. Every brick, every layer of this building tells a story about the history of Paris, and also the history of architecture, of engineering in the medieval world. This church has witnessed so many of the significant events of French history over the last 850 years. It has seen coronations and revolutions and world war

and dramatic restoration. This truly is the center of Paris. So this is where I'm going to meet my wonderful guide, Achille. Achille, how are you? Hi, Dan, how are you? Good to see you. It's good. Despite the heat, it's very good to have you here.

It's hot. But look at this building behind us. We've got the bells ringing out. Still got some scaffolding on the roof for after that terrible fire, which we're going to talk about. But tell me, I guess, where are we? Why is this enormous church here on this? Because we're right next to the river as well,

so why is it right here on this little island? Well, that's actually the best question to us, because it questions of why Paris was created in the first place. We're on the Ile de la Cité, literally the city island, and this is where the city started some 2,500 years ago. And as always, the point of being on an island is to define yourself and to have also control

over who crosses the river so you can make them pay, plus you can use fluvial commerce, so it's perfect. Same reason why London was in the Durea-Ribae River. And so when the Romans arrived, that is interesting because Julius Caesar, he described it as the muddy city, Lutetia, and this is where the name comes from. So the Romans, they continue building on here once they control the city and on the left bank. But so here, because it's the city island, you had the Palais du Roi,

the Palais de la Cité, where the king resided until when they moved to the Louvre in the late 1300s. So for about a thousand years, he had the king here, and he had all main bodies of administration. He had the Hôtel Dieu, which was the main hospital in the Middle Age in Paris, and of course, he had the first Roman cathedral right here. So it was packed, everything was packed onto this little island. Yes.

It would have felt very medieval. Very medieval, yes. If you want to have a sense of what medieval Paris looked like, you need to go to the left bank in some little streets. For example, the oldest house in Paris is the house of Nicolas Flamel in the Marais. And Nicolas Flamel you might know at least from Harry Potter because he is in the Philosophers' Stone or the Sorcerer's Stone for you Americans listening. And he's the one who supposedly made the Philosophers' Stone, the one turning everything in gold right now.

And his house still exists, and it's a restaurant, and you can go check it out. And the one other holdout from the medieval period is this gigantic church right next to us now. When was that started? So construction broke in the 1160s. Now it's unclear exactly when, but in the 1160s with the nations of the King of France, and it started on the urging of the bishop at the time, Maurice de Sully. It's more of an expression of how Paris is exploding in terms of wealth and population. At that time, Paris is transitioning

from a small medieval city to a massive cabal. It will go in the 1300s in the 25 000 inhabitants making it the largest city in northern Europe and the largest if you just exclude Italy. So you need more space for more people just like when people build new stadiums. Think of like people moving out of the old Arsenal Stadium to go to the new one because you have more people attending. Well the old cathedral could not have that many people. Notre Dame was built to have 5,000 worshippers at one moment which at the time would be one-fifth of the city that could go in for for example Christmas Mass. Incredible and I mean it took centuries. Literally centuries.

It's probably never been finished but to get to a point of sort of completion, it was, for how long? So we estimate that it ended in the mid 1300s. So about 180 years after start, although the first round was finished after 70 years. They arguably could serve and did serve as the cathedral after 70 years. It's just that after that time, they had new techniques,

they had new ways of making, and they had new crafts, they had new appetite, and more money, because after that time, you had, for example, Normandy and Languedoc, who became part of the royal estates, which meant more money for Paris, more money, more people working, so you could do more elaborates, and this is- We know that story.

Yeah, yeah, okay. So that's interesting. So actually this is a reflection of the increasing power and wealth of the French crown, particularly as they gobbled up the land that had been plantagenet, that had been ruled by the kings of England out to the west. So more than just things that belonged to the other kings, it's really the gulped out things that belonged to their vassals. Vassals that were very independent in the feudal system contrary to the imaginary that we have of the king

and everyone is really obeying the king. No, they would all be minding their own business in their own corner. So the king, having more and more land, meant that he was more and more powerful and he could impose more and more his power over his own kingdom. And it was not just a theoretical one.

And building Notre Dame was a way of stating how powerful he is. Like maybe you've read or seen the show Pillars of the Earth in this the author makes it clear how the construction of cathedral is much more than just a religious show it's a show of wealth of power and of the whole region around the cathedral right because that's why they are so tall this mystery tract and blew everyone's mind when they approached the city and they? Because that's why they're so tall. The Swiss were tracked and blew everyone's mind when they approached the city

and they can see that from far away. Think of that opening scene in the Handwreck of Notre Dame. You can see it from far away over the clouds. That was the effect wanted at the time. Was it very innovative in its construction? It was, and you can actually see it in the facade itself because if you look at the bottom part, see how bulky it is?

It reminds more of a castle than a Gothic cathedral. But the more you look up, and we're going to go around, and you'll see how more lavish it is, especially on a tracet, which is the part that is perpendicular to the rest of the church, it's more and more lavished because people developed more and more skills throughout the hundreds of years. And you can literally see right now, by looking at it from the side,

the evolution from early Gothic at the bottom to the Gothic, the Réunion, at the top. And I find that brilliant because we can see the imprint of all these periods of time adding up. Amazing. And you're staring up, this building is spectacular today. There's people taking photographs of it, peering up at huge queues to get in. How spectacular this must have felt then to medieval, well, people living in the countryside or even people living in Paris when it would just, it would have dwarfed every other structure in the city. Completely, it would have dwarfed everything. Although it's worth noting that at the time,

people would live in buildings of like three, four, sometimes five stories high, because there was lacking space and you need to be inside the walls of the city to be protected and have the commercial rights inside. Right, so on this island, actually would have been extraordinarily dense in fact. Exactly, it's very tiny, very filthy also, streets, because people would just like throw everything out

in the streets, hoping that they would end up going in the river at some point. So animals are doing their business on the streets. There's garbage, there's household waste. Yeah, people would throw their pieces in the streets like that. Better not be in the middle of the street. That's why people would walk on the side so that people would throw them. And if you're just directly under the window, you have less risk of receiving something.

That's why in French we have an expression, when someone is in a high position, we say that he is holding the high pavement, meaning that he is high on the road. Okay. Tenir le haut du pavé. Meaning that he's safely on the pavement. Yes. Everyone else has to walk in the middle of the street.

Exactly, and when someone is meeting them and you have to choose who's... Well, you have the higher status, so people need to go and go in the middle of the street. Exactly and when someone is meeting them and you have to choose who's well you have the higher status so people need to go and go in the middle where it's riskier to receive poop on your head. And the scent which was standing beside now would have been disgusting with the tanneries were here they would have been I mean it would have been toxic. I mean in a way maybe not as toxic as it was in the 70s with all the industry releasing all its chemicals in there. But for our modern standard, disgusting into the like feces and excrement and all sorts of human

and animal exorcients would end up in there. But one thing is nice about the sand is that it's a strong current so it pushes everything out. It's not a dormant river. And by the way, now the river is sane enough for people to take a swim. Today, it's opening for swimming in the sand. So now let's look at one of the most famous facades in the world. You've got these two magnificent towers.

You've got a gigantic rose window in the middle. Lots of carvings. Are those kings or are they apostles or are they saints along there? Those figures along the top of the dome. So that's very interesting. There has been a big misunderstanding about them. They are the kings of Judea, so the kings that are listed in the book of Kings. But during the

French Revolution, people mistook them for kings of France and they were brought down and destroyed. Oh really? Because they thought they were kings of France. Now you can find the original statues destroyed in the Musée de Cluny, which is the medieval art museum in Paris. And it's a beautiful one. I highly recommend you go check it out, because most of the original statues are there. And then I suppose the thing I remember when I was a kid

was these gargoyles, which are fabulous, particularly on Notre Dame. What's going on with them? Do you know where it comes from, the word gargoyles? No. Well, it comes from French, gargouille, like a lot of English words. Gar, it's the throat. And gouille, it's gar.

How do you? Clearing your throat? Yeah. Let's say clearing your throat. And so do you remember what they served for originally? Their purpose. Where they drained with rainwater. Exactly. They were taking out the rain so they would not in your throat. And so do you remember what they served for originally, their purpose? Where they drained with rainwater. Exactly, they were taking out the rain so they would not fall on and cascade down the precious ornaments on the facade and take it out far away from it,

so that the water would not damage the stone, because everything in Notre Dame is made of limestone, which is abundant in Paris, but very very fragile to erosion and also very porous to pollution that's why it's so nice they've been restored. So gargoyles they serve that plus they're beautifully embellished for several reasons. First of all the medieval art is fascinated with monstres. The figure of the monstres is which come from monstres in French which means point out and monsters they populate every book I, you've probably seen them everywhere. They are fasting with weird creatures. And they're supposed to scare off evil spirits away,

especially the devil. Well, they look devilish themselves, but I'm glad they're on the right side. And there's another thing interesting about the gates right here is that if you look at the gates and the doors especially, they have these beautifully intricate ironwork. Like it looks like it's ivy on it, growing naturally from the beautiful wood of the doors themselves.

Now, it was so well made that people thought that no humans could have done that. And then rose during the middle age in Paris a folktale about the smith who fooled the devil. So this young guy, this young Smith wanted to work on Notre-Dame but it was too young. So the head of works said to him, hey if you can make the whole ironing of all the doors in 24 hours, then you're in. Of course knowing that it was perfectly impossible and he was young and daring and so he said I'm gonna do that. And he tried but of course in the middle of the night he felt overwhelmed and said I'm never gonna do that and when you say I'm never gonna be able to do that who arrives trying to say that they're

gonna save your ass the devil arrives and say hey I can help you I can make the most exquisite iron work the world has ever seen and every credit will come on to you I only ask for a tiny, tiny thing, your soul. The guy accepts, of course, or else there's no story. And in the morning, everyone's baffled because there is this exquisite work. And everyone's like, how was that possible? And everyone's reviewing this young guy.

But when the devil arrives to take his due, the guy ends up falling into the cathedral and he will live for the rest of his life because the devil cannot go inside. And it probably is one inspiration behind the 100 Bac of Notre Dame, having to live his whole life inside, not being able to go out, seeking asylum from the cathedral.

And so he's the guy who made the devil work for God. Should we go in? Pleasure. The interior is absolutely fabulous, so let's dive in. Lead on a chill. We're in Paris, folks. This is our guide to one of the world's greatest cities. Back in a minute.

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Hit. Home. Okay, that is unbelievable. I have not been here since I was a kid and that is beautiful. Isn't it? Oh, I mean, this long nave is extraordinary, isn't it? Yes, this long nave here is typical of Notre Dame because the length was unparalleled. Now, by the way, for everyone that might not know that, it comes from now in Latin, which means the ship. Because if you look up, you'll see that it looks like

it's an upside down ship. Yes, it does. That's why. And then you have the second part of the church, which is the transept, which makes like a cross. Another thing interesting is that Notre Dame is not perfectly aligned. This nave is not perfectly straight.

Is that right? Yeah. If you look straight on, you cannot see the sun exactly raising up, which is odd, because usually churches are made to be exactly parallel with the sun. And is that because of the shape of the island? It's because of the shape of the island, plus, and this is where people disagree on,

is that intentional or not? It's probably not intentional, but they say that it's because the head of Christ on the cross leaned on one side. And so that's why if you look at a plan of Notre Dame, you will see that it's actually slightly tilting by the choir, which is the back, but it's also the most important part.

Can we just first of all talk about some of the history, some of the events that this magnificent church has witnessed, and my personal favorite, and the one that I am still remembering fondly as a sliding doors moment in history, and it could have gone either way, is the coronation of the young boy, Henry VI, King of England, who became Henry the,

something, King of France. Third. Henry III, actually, and then, because of his father, Henry V's conquests, for that brief moment, England and France were nominally under the same king. And if it had that endured, well, history would have been a better place.

We would have all been one big happy family. Anyway, that must have been extraordinary. That took place in this church. It did, yes, it did because Paris was under the control of the alliance between the English and the Bergens. At the time, first of all, Henry VI is the grandson of the King of France, Charles VI, the beloved, then called the Mad King.

Because you always need one. Yeah, he thought he was made out of glass. Poor thing. Disaster. You do need one Mad King at any point to make real medieval history of your country. And so he's French, and his mother is French, so he's English-French, which means that he had a claim, and I'm sparing you all the details,

but that's why the 100 Years' Worth started. Both the English king and French king had claims on each other's kingdom. Again, it's very complex and it's not that interesting, especially if you're really nerdy about incest. Which we are. Of course. And we believe that the Plantagenet house had a better claim than the House of Valois, and therefore what happened here in this wonderful church on that special day was that they were on the right side of history.

And it would have enjoyed had it not been for Joan of Arc, who emerged at this time, and the fact that Henry VI was the worst king in British history. The Pucelle d'Orléans, the Virgin of Orléans, she was known 15 years old, and yet she became the leader of the French army. Now of course, when you're said that you're called by God, for the enemies you are called by the devil. That makes sense. That's why it's so fun whenever both sides are claiming that they're fighting for God.

One technically must be wrong, which I mean you're saying that Plantagenet had a better claim, but Vatican recognizing that Joan of Arc was a saint, technically for all Catholics in the world Joan of Arc was on the good side. Okay fine, well we can agree to disagree on that one. But it is amazing isn't it to think of the historical events that have taken place in this track, it's extraordinary isn't it? Now let's go have a look at the Crown of Thorns. What claims to be?

What claims to be,, of course. What is important about the Crown of Thorns, if you want to go see it, please be careful that it is a relic for worship, and so please do not just go there to amuse yourself. Even if you don't consider it to be the truth, respect the ones who do. And it's only on display on Fridays afternoons. The rest, it's hidden. You can only worship it for two hours on Friday afternoon. So the Crown of Thorns story is quite interesting. So it goes all the way to Helena, the mother of Constantine. And she was a passionate Christian, wasn't she?

Yes, but she was also, she can be considered the first archaeologist in the world. Yes, she dug up Jerusalem and stuff. Exactly, and she found, or claimed to have found, the Crown of Thorns. And then it stayed in Constantinople, which became later on Istanbul, until the Crusaders took the city and then you have Baudouin II, who was a Catholic king there. He was being attacked everywhere by his own Orthodox subjects, yes, and he had to raise money and so he literally pawned the Crown of France to a Venetian merchant and hearing that, Saint Louis, the King of France, who was as the name implies a beggar, he went above and beyond to buy it.

He spent 220,000 livres, tournois, which would be half the annual treasury of the Kingdom of France acquiring it. And then he built the Saint-Chapelle, which is not too far, and I encourage you to have a look at it, it's gorgeous, as a big chasse. A chasse is a place where you keep a relic, so it's a chapelle that is built to be like a giant chasse for this, and was meant to be for his eyes only. And you have to wait hundreds of years, the 1800s, for the chronophones to be displayed in Notre Dame for everyone to worship. And we are right now in front of the beautiful modern creation where it is displayed on Friday afternoons.

But since we're recording that on a Tuesday, it is not here. As far as relics go, they don't get much bigger than that. I mean, it's a pretty big deal. Here we are just behind the Pietin. While you were talking about a coronation, let's talk about another one, which is even more famous, I'd say, for everyone that heard of Napoleon.

Oh, yes. You have probably. Of course, that took place in here, didn't it? Yeah, it did. It did. And if you've seen this very famous painting of his coronation, where, by the way, he's crowning himself, yes, baddest power move ever, well, he's doing it in Notre Dame. But it's hard to recognize it because Jacques-Louis David, the painter, had instruction of disguising Notre Dame

so it would not take away from the grandeur of the future emperor. That's why it doesn't look really like Notre Dame, except if you look at the Pietà, and the Pietà is Mary holding the body of her dead son, which is exactly the one that we're seeing. I've never thought about that, because the painting actually looks like they're in a kind of more rounded classical setting, almost like the sort of Roman Senate or something, doesn't it? That's interesting. That's also something very interesting, it's because Notre-Dame didn't look like this also.

It's because it was much more of a modern church, inside a modern cathedral. So if we'd come in here in the Gothic period when it was built, would there have been a riot of colour? It's very, very white now, very plain, isn't it? Oh yeah, you would have colours everywhere, you would have paintings, murals everywhere, because remember, people could not understand Latin at the time

nor could they read so they could read on the walls what would happen in the Bible and It's way more appealing for people at the time to have colors It's funny how most movies about the Middle Age tend to have everything's gray everything's gray, muddy and people are desperate and you know, it's cold and winter is coming and you know it's... and you just want to hear Jon Snow talking about how cold everything is and how dark and how gloomy. But when you look at Middle Age, it's actually very, very colorful. I recommend if you play video games to Plague Tales, which is a French video game set in

the Middle Age. It's very good and it shows you this plethora of colors and culture at the time and it's it's really nice and This takes us to another very important part of this story of Notre Dame is that the Notre Dame we're seeing today is a reconstruction the Notre Dame we're seeing in the Notre Dame we all envisioned is the one of Violaire le Duc the one who restored Notre Dame in the mid 1800s. And he demolished everything that Notre-Dame had been seeing in terms of addition, reconstruction throughout the centuries since its first Gothic construction. Right, so what, it had a complete refurb in the mid 19th century.

It had throughout actually. So that means that Notre- Notre Dame has continually changed throughout the hundreds of years that will follow from the 1300s till the 1800s and it will become a Baroque cathedral under for example Louis XIV. They will hide the pillars, most of the gothic beautiful looking pillars. They were hidden because they were seen as hideous by people of the Renaissance and later on and all the statues inside were hidden or demolished or moved away. So Notre Dame didn't look at all like that at first glance. And it looked more like the one you're seeing in the painting.

Interesting. So by baroque, do you mean when Louis XIV, did he just cover it with some crazy gold and flowers shapes and just go, I love that. So it was once kind of over the top baroque interior. Oh, yeah, we can actually see still some, if we go have a look, we can see some parts that are still left of the original Baroque statues, especially because they are commemorative of people dead. So they could not be destroyed later on that easily.

But you find that everywhere. No church was left alone. And then presumably during the French Revolution, which was when there was a massive rejection of the Catholic Church and its institutions, did this remain as a church or was it taken over by the revolutionaries? So this is interesting. So we've been discussing outside the facade and the kings mistaken for kings of France, but inside a lot of the religious symbols were taken out because this was transformed into a cathedral of the religion of reason, the church of reason, which today sounds like a cult, but at the time it's

something made from the philosophy of the Enlightenment and this idea that we should not be bound by the conservative notions of the past religions, we can take everything that is beneficial of the philosophy of the religions, and then make this new humanity-oriented humanist religion, which was the religion de la raison. How fascinating. So during the revolution, would Robespierre come in here and listen to sermons about science and philosophy and things like that? So I don't know about Robespierre to be fair about him specifically, but yes, it stayed

for example a Roman Catholic cathedral for a few specifically, but yes, it stayed, for example, a Roman Catholic cathedral for a few years, but then in 1795, the Catholic religion was banned. And this made this one a reason church, if you want. A church of reason. Yes, and it rebecame one later on when Napoleon reached more and more power to the pinnacle of the restitution to Catholicism, that is the coronation of Napoleon with the presence of the Pope. So Napoleon tries to win over some more conservative elements

to his regime by restoring Catholicism, by bringing back some aristocratic elements to France. Exactly, Napoleon in a way wants to make the best of two worlds, claiming that he's continuing in a path of the Republic by having, like broadly speaking, representative, parliament, et etc., while having the aristocracy and the legitimacy of the Church behind him. And of course, the Pope is more than happy to come to crown him, because he's like, oh, this is my shot at reclaiming France, this huge kingdom, which was called the first

daughter of Church, back into the Roman Catholic Church. So the Pope comes all the way here, Napoleon grabs the crown at the last minute and crowns himself with his eye of love. And in terms of the changes, you also need to know that during the reform and the religion wars in France, because we did have huge religion wars with the Saint Bartholomew,

well, you did have Protestants who marched in several times in Notre Dame and destroyed precious religious items from the Gothic era as a way to oppose the papal and opulent display of religious symbols. So just on the other side of the channel Cromwell's Protestants used to stable their horses in the great cathedrals of England sometimes. So French Protestants burst in here and would strike down images and pay. Okay, interesting. Except that they were minorities.

So that was seen as like terrorist attack to them, right? They would place a bit of bombs, which of course served as an excuse to the St Bartholomew with tens of thousands of deaths later on. The St Bartholomew masques, yeah. Okay, so Notre Dame, when you enter this building, even before the fire and restoration, it's draw about a second, it's an ever-changing landscape in here. There's no sense that what you're seeing now is what Louis XIV or Napoleon or Rôte-Pierre

or Victor Hugo would have seen. But tell me about the 19th century. After Napoleon, what happens to this building? So after Napoleon, Notre Dame is still, it has stayed the cathedral of Paris. So the cathedral, by the way, is the seat of the bishop. So it's the most important church of all the churches in the bishopry. And it is getting old, and it has all these layers of history onto one another. And this is where you were talking about Victor Hugo,

and it becomes very important because his impact with Notre-Dame de Paris is comparable to the ones you were making about in your episodes about pirates with Treasure Island on the imaginary of what piratesrots were like, it stated what people wanted to see because people didn't want to see the Notre Dame that was layers upon layers of history and this what we call the historicity of a place or of a piece. They wanted to see the quote-unquote original Notre Dame and this is when you had a big call out for projects in the 1830s. Remember Notre Dame de Paris is published in 1831 so it's right after that you have a call for the renovation, restoration.

You do have this sense of, this very romantic sense of patrimony that is starting to take form in the mental collective in Europe that we need to preserve what the past has left. Yes, as the industrial Revolution is sweeping things away. Exactly. And so the book of Victor Hugo is a catalysis of that. And then so that's where we strip back to its more original, if you like, Gothic beginnings. Medieval. Yes. It looks a bit more medieval.

Exactly. It looks, it feels medieval. Let's talk now about how it was recreated. Because a lot of places here, you can see on top of the pillars right here, the floral effects. We have no record of them being here. Maybe they were there, maybe they were not. But it's more about like trying to get the feeling

of genuineness than having strong historical evidence. And what is very interesting is that Violet Le Duc, throughout his works, he pretended that he found through quote unquote archaeological digs on site, more and more evidence of, oh yeah, that was like that, even though it was not like that. The best part is, like, when he remade the spire, he used modern techniques, and how he legitimised that,

he said, well, but if builders at the time had had these techniques, they would have used them. Yeah, I love it. In Britain, nearly everything that we think of is ancient is actually made up by the Victorians. And I'm glad to hear that's the same is true of France as well. Paris isn't going anywhere, folks. There's plenty more coming up after this. Summer is finally here, but for those of

you just like me who are counting down the days until the leaves turn golden, the nights start drawing in and it's finally acceptable to spend a whole weekend binge watching True Crime in your PJs, After Dark, Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal can transport you there right now, twice a week, every week. Tudor Murder, Ancient Ghosts, Victorian Mysteries – our podcast has you covered. I'm Maddie Pelling. And I'm Anthony Delaney. And we are friends and historians who love to find out about the darker side of history.

Join us on the scaffold for Anne Boleyn's final moments. Step inside Tutankhamun's tomb, which is apparently cursed. Watch a jury deliberate the fate of the last three women to be hanged for witchcraft in England. Find us every Monday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts and now on YouTube. After Dark, Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal is created by the award-winning network History Hit. hit. Now speaking of restorations and debates around how you restore rebuild preserve, tell me about 2019 that must have been absolutely shocking. First of all what happened? I don't I haven't

checked in with this. Why did this building burn down? Well that's the big irony of that. They were actually restoring the spire built by Viola Le Duc. So they were restoring a spire that was only built just over a hundred years ago. Exactly, exactly. And trying to copy the original medieval one that had been demolished, it's still unclear exactly today what happened because probably the people in the know know but they don't want to say what happened. What we know is that the fire started early in the evening, probably because of malfunction of a machine. Up in the roof?

Up in the roof, yes. And because it's very old wood, this one was very, very old, 800 years old. Wow, what a shame. That started, the blaze started real fast. And then I remember I was in Paris at the time, just going outside and you could see it from everywhere. And every Persian was outside. I remember not really grasping at the moment what happened.

I remember feeling like, yeah, but I mean, it's stone. So it's sad for the roof, but the stone don't burn. But then on the news, everyone was saying, yeah, but stone don't take well this kind of heat. And it's going to dislodge. And how bad? So the roof burns off. How badly was the fabric, these wonderful columns and walls

that we're surrounded by now, did they suffer as well, cracking and shifting? A lot was saved thanks to the bravery of firefighters who went into the blaze. Not saving people this time, but saving precious artifacts and relics. For example, the Crown of Thorns in Notre Dame was saved by firefighters. So were countless, countless works of art and relics in Notre Dame by people rushing in with the roof Falling on their head. You have to imagine the scene, right? There was actually a movie about that if you want to imagine that you can see the movie

it's a pretty accurate reproduction of that and Everything every furniture here was destroyed burned down. Everything is remodeled but most of the statues were saved, spared, most of the glass as well. And just quote-unquote needed a good scrub off and actually that was in a way bad for a good because it gave enough time for real restoration that Notre-Dame hadn't seen well since the 1800s and since then we've had the invention of cars and industry and laws of fumes so So we're seeing here much wider Notre Dame. Yes, it's very wide.

Yeah, it is. And the glass is very, very clear. Lots of light shining through today. That was 2019. 2019, yes. And so it took about five years. About five years, yes. That was really quick because... Do you guys want to come build some high-speed rail in the UK? Well, I guess it's really the symbol of it. The president, Macron, really went on TV to say, we're a people of builders, we're going to rebuild it,

which was really such a good spirit and movement all throughout the country, no matter your faith, no matter your origin. Another point is that Notre Dame received literally hundreds of millions of donations from all around the world, which helped in paying the best of the best all year long, all day day long so you had works 24

7 for five years which explained how it could have been done so fast actually it's not really finished the exterior still as we saw outside there's still a lot of work going on but the interior is absolutely extraordinary there was some big debates weren't they about putting a glass roof and using steel and and I suppose updating you know this debate around Notre Dame, how it's always changing. In the end, just looking from here, it looks like they went with quite a conservative sort of replacement. But am I wrong looking up?

Tell me what they decided to do. I'd say even more than a debate, it was a political breakdown where every party went in. Personally, I was in favor of doing something bold and new because why not? And these people, these builders, they were building something new and daring and bold at the time. Of course they were back in the day. No one told them, no, stick to Roman, because people did that at the time and we don't want this horrible new thing that would be called later on Gothic.

So I understand the appeal for something like that, but I would say that it's more an appeal of So I understand the appeal for something like that, but I would say that it's more an appeal of staying into the fantasy of Notre Dame as it was constructed in the 1800s, rather than a real aim at restoring the original quote-unquote Notre Dame, because if you had done that, then you would have repud colors everywhere, because we know that Notre Dame had colored walls everywhere, and not this pristine white marble or limestone here that is reminiscent of Greek temples which were also by the way painted so it's really all about the reconstruction of our luck on the past. I know that French society has been so divided you know over religion and monarchy and and socialism and conservatism and I know that Notre Dame has been part of that debate over the years with atheists who refused to come in. Did the fire and the restoration, is this now back to being a kind of a national monument? Is this a place for everyone now?

You know what I would say? I would say so, yes, despite all the debates, etc. This is why I love this place, because it really was brought up in the public discourse as a collective work. And one thing for me that is the most important, and we're debating about this conservatism or like restoration all of that I'd say what is the most beautiful about Notre Dame is that it allowed people to live from their craft and to revive old precious craft that people had forgotten and people didn't care in this day and age of like buy for a way and now this cathedral is an M to not just the past it's an M to the current state of French art and craft. And for me, that is the most beautiful.

What a wonderful answer. Thank you very much. If people want to come on one of your fabulous tours, how can they get in touch with you? Well, it was a pleasure being with you, Dan. And yes, that would be lovely to have some of your listeners on my tours. They can book me privately through my email,

which I guess is going to be in the footnotes of the episode. Just shoot out an email to me and I'll answer and we'll try to accommodate. I do a whole variety of tours in Paris, of course not just this one, I do museums and food tours, etc. So thank you very much for having me. Well, it's just been a dream coming to Notre Dame since the restoration, since those extraordinary innovations. So fast, the scale of it is amazing.

It looks fabulous both inside and out. And I love the fact that it sits right here on the Ile de Cité, the heart of medieval Paris, a wonderful place to think about the city's history more generally. We're going to head into the shade now because I've never been so hot in my life. We're going to chill out and have a little limonade. And then we're going to go out and record another episode for the series because that's what we do for you folks. We deliver, we work hard. This one is going to be all about Napoleon's Paris. You know I'm not coming to Paris without talking about the French Emperor himself. He was the man who transformed Paris, he turned it into

the center of an empire. He wanted it to be a city of such grandeur, filled with gigantic monuments like the Arc de Triomphe that people would think of it as the center of the universe. And even though he fell a bit short, this city map, its layout, its texture, its vibe, is still largely a product of his remarkable ambition, megalomania, you can decide. That podcast will be on the feed later in this series, which is running throughout August. Make sure you follow so you don't

miss an episode. If you're listening to Spotify, let us know in the comments where you want us to go. If not, you can always email us, ds.hhathistoryhere.com. We will go wherever you send us, within reason. See you next time. you