Dan Snow's History Hit - Oswald Mosley & Fascism in Britain

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

This is the story of British fascism seen through the life of its leader, Oswald Mosley. We explore his charismatic yet deeply flawed personality, his relationship with European fascists, and the eventual decline of his movement.With us is Stephen Dorril, a former senior lecturer in journalism at Huddersfield University and the author of 'Blackshirt: Sir Oswald Mosley and British Fascism'. He joins us for an in-depth look at this complex and controversial figure.Produced and edited by James Hickmann.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.

You're listening to Dan Snow's History, and this is the story of British fascism, told through the person, really, of its leader, Oswald Mosley. A charismatic, deeply cynical womaniser who took secret payments from foreign dictators, blamed immigrants for economic woes, and campaigned for their repatriation, whilst advocating for his country to stay out of a European war, ceding much of Eastern Europe to a dictator. I've got Stephen Dorrell, he's a senior lecturer in print journalism at Huddersfield University, and he's been investigating the nexus of intelligence and politics for decades. He's author of Black Shirts, Oswald Mosley,

and British Fascism. Enjoy. joy. Stephen, thank you very much for coming on the podcast. Nice to be here. Tell me about the political culture that he sprang from as a child in his family. What was the politics he grew up with? Well, he was part of a landed gentry. I don't think you could class them as being aristocrats. They were much more countrified than that. They weren't people that took part in the city or the town. They were very much in the countryside, in farming community. However, his father was a rake, basically, a womanizer, unreliable. And I think he took from him the idea of a man of action. And I think he took from him the idea of a man of action.

His mother was the most important part in Mosley's life, very, very close to his mother. And she treated him almost, well, Freud in terms really, godlike, that he was allowed to get away with almost anything. And it produced a very kind of narcissistic personality, very charming, very polite. The politics were kind of very traditional, beginning of the last century, Tory squireship, paternalistic. He doesn't really write very much about the servants and all the people that are

helping him. They were wealthy, although on the surface it doesn't appear so, but eventually would be left by his grandfather something, well, it'd be probably worth about 20 million in today's terms. probably worth about 20 million in today's terms. But I think the most important part of his early life is kind of hunting, fishing, having a good time, really not caring a great deal about the world. And politics didn't play a big part. There was a degree of anti-Semitism around, which was fairly traditional in those circles.

But there's no real evidence that Mosley himself was anti-Semitic in his kind of young life. But I think he just picked up some of those values of being in the countryside. His grandfather was well known locally and even nationally for a bread campaign. But they were never political figures. Was this a man who was radicalised by the First World War? We talk so much, don't we, about veterans on the continent emerging from the First World War, people like Mussolini and Hitler who were radicalised, who were traumatised and radicalised.

Is that how we need to think about Mosley? He served all the way through the war. What happened to him? Do we think that's important? Yes, the war years are absolutely important. He's very much part of that front generation that became fascists, who their ideas, their ideology, views of the world were shaped by the events of the First World War. views of the world were shaped by the events of the First World War. He was kind of a tradition army person, went to Sandhurst, lots of japes. I don't think he took it very seriously.

Joined the guards, but then wanted action. And he joined the Royal Flying Corps and went to France. Now, he makes a great deal of his time in France in the RAFC, but he was only there, I think, 75 days. But even so, it did have a traumatic effect on him. He saw people killed. He saw pilots killed. There were crashes.

And in one instance, when he was training to become a flyer himself, he damaged his leg and nearly lost it. And that had a big effect on him. He had a permanent limp from then on. He was part of that kind of Tory, fencing, boxing, physical kind of things. And I think he's probably thought when he went to France that this was part of all of that. But he left the RFC because of the injury and he went into the infantry and he was in the trenches

and he did see some of the big battles and he saw the destruction of some of the French towns and cities. And it's very clear, and I think we have to take it, that it was true that this had a big effect on him. And it left him with the idea that you should stop war in all instances, that this is so traumatic that you cannot allow it to happen. And so he came out of the war with a belief that he wanted to see things done. And he was part of that land fit for heroes. And of course, it all became disillusionment because it

never happened. And that was what really shaped his politics. Yes, I'd love to dwell on that for a second. Because I think there's sort of hints of that today in some of the right-wing critiques of liberal democracy and mainstream politics. That land fit fear, they come back going, right, we've seen such terrible things that we now have to put aside silly, the silly everyday concerns of these sort of dithering politicians, you know, committees and sort of proper parliamentary scrutiny. We need to do bold things. Having sacrificed so much, having cradled our dying friends' arms, you know, absolutely, totally legitimate in the experience they've been through and responses to those things,

that they sort of start to regard the necessities of humdrum civilians or political, the machinery of that, as sort of almost as treacherous as betraying the memory of the that the enormous the enormity of the sacrifice that their generation had been through i think that's partly true but i think that comes later uh when they themselves become disillusioned i think they come back with the hope that things can be done. And I think in the case of Mosley, he'd worked in the Ministry of Munitions at the end of the war. And he saw that actually you could do things because this was about planning. It was about state intervention,

that the state on a massive scale, they had to for the war, had intervened in politics, in industry, etc. And I think that was also an important influence on him, that he expected post-war that you could, for instance, build houses on a kind of industrial scale, that you could resurrect the economy and do that. And initially, he was optimistic. And there were a group of young Tories, conservatives, and he was very young because he was 21 when he became an MP,

who had that faith that it could be done, especially in Lloyd George, who they regarded as some kind of hero because of what he had done with the Ministry of Munitions and with government towards the end of the war, gradually realised that the Tory party just wasn't going to do that. It wasn't capable of doing that. And he became radicalised and he saw in, much like Mussolini, socialism and nationalism, ideas from Joseph Chamberlain of social imperialism, that you could resurrect Britain post-war. And that's kind of where he went.

You might think he'd draw the lesson that many British people drew after World War II from that same kind of state intervention, doing things, building things on vast scale, which is you become a believer in the Labour movement, the socialism. But he's sort of culturally such a Tory. In fact, he marries, doesn't he, one of the daughters of one of the great Tories, Lord Curzon? Simi Curzon, yes. He joins that kind of aristocratic branch

and he takes part fully in that. And he's a notorious womanizer um you know he had that uh the stare he would uh go into uh parties and social events and he knew the leading lady um people who who ran these parties and he kind of stare at a woman and apparently they fell at his feet. He was a very impressive character. But I think we have to accept there's something genuine in his desire to do something. And of course, he joins the Labour Party because he thinks that's the party that is going to achieve something. It's not only the Labour party joins the ilp independent labor party and he's taken up by the most radical section which is those around glasgow and scotland who are pushing

a very radical agenda and they like him perhaps not on a personal level but they like his ideas, he's interested in ideas. And he pursues those. And of course, he takes up Keynes. And he is the first real national politician to take up the ideas of intervention in the economy, which puts him at odds with people like Snowden in the Labour Party, who are not going to intervene on the kind of massive scale that Moseley and the ILP want. So he's married to the daughter of one of the most famous sort of Tory earls in the world. The king and queen went to his wedding. He's living an aristocratic lifestyle. However, his fellow travellers politically are the more radical, extreme wing of the Labour Party.

He believes in intervention, economy, building homes and things like that. He's also, at this point, a sort of pacifist, passionately anti-war. He's anti-war. He's not a pacifist, because he would build up the army, etc. But he would kind of not take part in anything in Europe so like today's I don't know what he'd do about Ukraine probably he would not be wanting to get involved because he would think it would lead to war but on top of all this is also that during the period when he was in hospital during the first War, when he damaged his leg, he became a great reader. And he was into Carlisle and the great men theory of history

that individual men can intervene into history and create events. And he was one of them i mean that's not unusual because i think tony blair also was into that kind of idea a number of politicians so all through this he does think that he is the one that can achieve greatness and um you know bring in planning, change the economy and do things. And I think that's partly grown out of his upbringing and the way that he was brought up. It's helped kind of put this idea into his head. Yeah, never underestimate the ability of the British public school system to churn out kids who feel they're great men of history.

Absolutely. Although he did rebel against that i mean he was into japes he rebelled and he could have been thrown out a number of times i mean he was somebody really without constraints he kind of felt i think that he was entitled to do this he could he could get away it. But he was a complex person. He did have great charm. Everybody who met him said he was very polite. And he listened. But at the same time, I think he was expecting them to kind of, at some stage, kind of hero worship of himself. Well, Stephen, I think that sounds perfectly consistent. You know, classic British gentleman,

listen very politely, fastidious manners, and then absolutely crush you if you have the temerity to disagree or take a different course. So he ends up, he becomes, he goes from the Tory party, he becomes independent, he becomes a Labour MP,

he sits for Smethwick. Whilst he's Labour MP, he says some very rude things about fascism. He does, because I think he comes from a very British background. You know, foreigners, these foreign ideas are not something that he's into. And of course, in this period, Mussolini is regarded very highly, including like Churchill who think he is a great man and he's mostly more into British figures

like Joseph Chamberlain and he's interested in those ideas and he doesn't really take up many ideas that come from Germany or from Italy it's very English his kind of fascism that develops, and it's an interesting mixture. Unlike a lot of British fascists, and even on the continent, he does have ideas, he does have theories, and he does read,

and he is interested in ideas. But they are, as you said said they're a melange they are a strange mixture which i think he realizes when he gets towards creating british fascism that they don't all fit together and it's problematic i think it's really interesting this debate like why does britain not fall to fascism in in the mid-20th century but i think the british context really important right is that britain's got the biggest empire in the world so so there are places on the british political spectrum that already exist which are enormously celebrated some of the things that fascists in europe like national rebirth national strength and power well britain's got the biggest empire in the world. So there is a domestic British context for Moseley holding the views that he does.

There is. And of course, when he gets to the late 1920s, he realises that the great hope of the Labour Party for him, that this was the movement that would change things, isn't going to happen. that this was the movement that would change things isn't going to happen. That the Labour Party is kind of on the right of socialism and the left and people like Snowden are too close to treasury orthodoxy and they're not going to make the great changes. So he's becoming disillusioned.

There are arguments. I mean, he's not a cabinet minister he's a he's a junior minister uh but he's making all these waves and he's expecting to be heard and he's not and there's no reason why they should really um but he's becoming uh around to the idea that you probably need a movement rather than a party, that he's not somebody really for a party discipline. Although he has huge support inside the Labour Party amongst younger members, and there is this idea that maybe he is the future,

and that possibly he will become in the future, in a decade or whatever, the leader of the Labour Party, but he's not willing to wait around for that. It's all about action now. So he leaves the Labour Party, takes with him some of the socialists on the left, and he's moving in many different circles, like Harold Macmillan is interested, and there are people on the right, and he produces the new movement, the new party, which has elements of fascism, but it's not fully developed.

And is it this new party, presumably this is coming now from the shattering of the political system as a result of the Great Depression. There are new ideas, there are people questioning allegiances and orthodoxies all over Europe, and that's happening in Britain too. That's true. And there are people in the beginning of the new party who go to Europe, and they start to see what's happening in Italy and other places. Initially, it is very Italian orientated. And they take in the propaganda that Mussolini is putting out about draining the marshes, creating industry and all these kinds of things.

They are really enamored with that. And they bring that back and they tie that in with various ideas that moseley has been developing has and they develop um in some ways one of the first kind of modern parties in that it uses the media and it uses radio and it uses film and uh one of the backers is wed allen from northern ireland who owns a big uh poster company i mean around the country that these massive posters uh for the new party and so it's developing a kind of modern movement what's the policy platform why has he left and feels he has to pursue this new party well social imperialism um as you said it's developing the empire there is this massive resource there that

moseley thinks can be exploited even more um nationalism and uh elements of Keynes' state intervention. At this stage, there is no element, really, of anti-Semitism. And in fact, there are quite a few Jewish members. Mosley is seen as this young, thrusting, action-orientated person who wants to do do something and he kind of drags people along with him and they are enthused by him and you see these um big meetings where he can really rouse the crowd and he is he's clearly one of the great speakers you know he's one of the great half dozen speakers of the 20th century in british politics and he can rouse the crowd towards the end of that period when you get towards 1932 there is a counter reaction against it and some people are starting to see

in it incipient fascism and you're starting to see some violence at meetings particularly in Birmingham and other places and Mosley kind of enjoys it. He kind of throws himself into the crowd and takes part. I think there's a kind of thrill about all of this. But it all ends in disaster, really, that it's just too late in that the national government is coming in. And in many ways, the national government, as elements of fascism itself, it's right-wing, very nationalistic,

and it takes away some of the things from the new party. So when it comes to the election, it doesn't do very well. So they have a retrenchment and they start to talk about what do we do. And out of the discussions in the summer of 1932, when they do send emissaries to Nazi Germany and to Italy, they come back and they have these internal discussions, a small group of acolytes, and they decide on a British fascism. And one element of that, which they do discuss, is about antisemitism, whether they should take that as a policy. They do. And the reason being is for the most cynical of reasons. being is for the most cynical of reasons uh mosley isn't i don't think personally is anti-semitic he sees anti-semitism and he takes the examples he's seen in france of the problem with fascism it has all these contradictory ideas on the one hand it is very

modern but it also is archaic on the one one hand, it is urban, but it's about the countryside. And within this group, there are lots of different views. There are very pro-Nazi ones. The Nazis are seen as the modern movement. And there are others who are Italian supporters who see Mussolini as the way forward. And they can't combine them together in a coherent kind of ideology. But Moseley decides that anti-Semitism is the way that you do.

There is an occasion where he meets with some of his backers in the new party, and there's a disputed evening where Sif and other leading Jews are there, and they ask Mosley about what he's doing. He says to Sif, you know, don't worry, Marcus. It's not about Jews like you. You're good Jews. It's about those bad Jews that are creating unemployment

and exploiting the British. Those are the only ones who are after your OK kind of thing. So it's a kind of very different anti-Semitism to the Nazis, which is biological. This is a more cynical approach, and there are good and bad Jews. And out of this in October 1932, the British Union of Fascists was formed. In Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries. The gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research. From the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings.

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Wherever you get your podcasts. We should say you mentioned the general election in passing, but the 1931 general election, the new party lose all their MPs, including Moseley's seat. And so that's what provokes this sort of back-to-the-drawing-board look. When you say this cynical, so anti-Semitism, it's a matter of seeing what they think will stick. What will gain them votes? Let's turn up the dial of anti-Semitism. And in what other

ways do they kind of embrace European fascism? Like, what other things does he reach for? Well, I think it's more about anti-Sism is the glue that sticks the all the different ideas together which everybody within the movement can combine and move forward but it is very cynical to the extent that they know that this is the plan but they're not going to launch it immediately there is going to be a build-up to when they do actually launch

anti-Semitism as the policy. They want to create a movement, set up branches, et cetera, build it up, gain the support of some industrialists and backers, and then at the moment they release it. And they partly know this because of people who've been to Nazi Germany. And the Nazis are, and this only becomes apparent perhaps later, three years down the line, are totally obsessed by anti-Semitism. The support from the Nazis will not come unless it is an anti-Semitic party. Not only is it an anti-Semitic party, but it has to be one that is involved in actions against Jews. You have to be dirty down on the street fighting, as it were, for Hitler.

not concerned really about anti-semitism and they kind of pass that by when they see Mussolini they don't see Mussolini they talk about the industrial policy they talk about a European fascism that there will be a network of European fascist parties that Mussolini will kind of put together with congresses, etc. And this is going to be a movement across Europe because Mussolini is not enamored with Hitler. He wants to be the leading fascist. So initially, they go with the Italians. Italy is providing And Italy is providing finance and they send out couriers to Rome who stay there and are financed by Mussolini. And gradually money starts to come into Moseley, who controls it through very secret banks accounts. At which point MI5 start to get interested. They pick up rumours about this and they start to monitor events although they know nothing about the links to Nazi Germany.

So it starts off and they immediately get support from some financial backers. They have money from Mussolini and then of course Rothemeyer and his newspapers start to back this new movement of youth. One of the ideas is across Europe that the young are disillusioned, they want action, and fascism is the new young movement. As well as the anti-Semitism, is there a strong man? Is there a protector? Is there a, we need to get things done, which we've been hearing a lot in astonishingly in

the last few years as well in our world, which is this idea that these problems are intractable unless we have someone with the kind of personal energy and charisma to blast things through. Is that something he's developing in the UK? I think that is a very strong element of why this is fascist, that there is the leader, and Mosley is the leader. He is the one, and everything centres around him. It's set up as a kind of military organisation based on ideas from the First World War, really, when they were in the military. And the people around him were all people from the First World War. They were all in the military or the Royal Flying Corps,

and they see it as a kind of military operation. And this is the thing that they really take from Hitler and from Mussolini, that it is about the one person. They are very, the people around them are very loyal, hero worship. And there is a kind of strange spiritual element to all of this. There is talk of, you know, where does fascism go in the end? What's the point? Where is it going to?

And they talk in very spiritual terms of, you know, kind of the white light, that there is a kind of paradise at the end of this, cult-like in some ways, I think. And they believe in it, totally. And there is this core group, and he does present an elite within it, as did Mussolini and Hitler.

And they are ultra-loyal. And they are willing to commit acts of violence. And I think some of them think this is going to be necessary to break through the logjam, break through the old parties. It's a movement of youth, which Rothermere takes up and exploits and pushes in his newspapers. takes up and exploits and pushes in his newspapers. Where do we get the so-called black shirts? Where do we get these paramilitaries that begin to look and feel very much like the units that we see in Italy and particularly Germany in this period? Well, there is a twin track approach by Mosley. There is the kind of more overt Italian fascism side, which the authorities know about. And that is, if you could have such a thing, a kind of respectable fascism. And then underneath this is the more secret side where some people have gone to Germany and they are negotiating with the Germans about support, but it's secret.

And this is where the black shirt uniform comes from. That after about 35, the Italian support subsides. Mussolini thinks that Moseley isn't going anywhere. It's not going to happen, partly, I think, because of the success of the national government. And so they lean more towards the Nazis and they seek money from the Nazis. And they said the Nazis will only give money if they have evidence that there is an anti-Semitic campaign. anti-semitic campaign and so there is a an agenda to start an anti-semitic campaign and hitler gets more and more interested although he probably personally doesn't like

mosley that much but part of that is taking on board more nazi ideas of being on the street, being engaged in battles, etc. And they take up the uniform and becomes much, much more militarized by 1936. This is done through his second marriage. Simi has died and, as we said, mostly remains a womanizer. And he takes up with Diana Mitford of the Mitford sisters. And she is besotted with Mosley and supports him 100% in his politics and what he's doing. And, of course, her sister is Unity Mitford who goes to Germany

and Diana and Unity see Hitler more than any other foreign visitor Unity I think saw him something like 90 times and Diana saw him something like 60 times and I spoke to Diana I saw her in Paris And I spoke to Diana. I saw her in Paris.

And I went to interview her. And I said, you know, what was it like being with Hitler like that? And she said they very rarely talk politics. There's a lot of gossip about the British aristocracy, what was going on, everyday events. And she liked him a lot. She would often see him by himself. Unity was there sometimes, and they built up this relationship. She was also very close to Goebbels.

I had some of the Goebbels diaries translated, because most of the Goebbels diaries translated, because most of the Goebbels diaries have not been translated, they are really fascinating because you see this person on one level is into art, opera, culture at a deep level. And, you know, you see him a couple of hours later in his office talking about how he got rid of the Jews. And, you know, you see him a couple of hours later in his office talking about how he'd get rid of the Jews. And she's seen him, and I asked about that and about the funding. She denied it initially, but then I happened to have the documents

from Germany and showed, and she just said, so it must be true then. And it was. They were giving substantial amounts to Mosley by the end of 1935, 1936. Of course, Diana and Mosley get married on the day after the Battle of Cable Street. And Hitler turns up with the rest of the Nazi hierarchy. He gives them their blessing. And from then on, it's really a kind of more Nazi, British fascist movement than the Italian movement had been.

Yeah, I can't believe Hitler went to his wedding in 1936. But you've mentioned the Battle of Cable Street there, which many people will be familiar with, the name of it anyway. Tell me about October 1936. Why did it happen? There was pressure from the Nazis. If you're going to get funding from us, then show us that you're doing something because you're not doing anything in kind of election terms. The support is, you know, they had something like 50,000 supporters in 1934 on the back of the Rosamere They had something like 50,000 supporters in 1934 on the back of the Rothamir campaign in the newspapers.

It seemed to be taking off. Then it starts to tail down. So Mosley is under pressure to do something, and Cable Street is part of that. They've been campaigning in that area, a very high concentration of Jewish refugees, and they're starting up an anti-Semitic campaign. But when it comes to it, it's a case of really that

Mosley runs his men up to the top of the hill and then stops. Because, I mean, Cable Street is a myth in a way, because there was no battle between the British Union of Fascists and the defenders of Cable Street. The battle was between those defenders and the police. One of the police commanders went to Mosley as he had his troops lined up, ready to go in for this battle and said, well, if you do go in, we can't guarantee that we'll be able to protect you

because there are a lot of there are a lot of people there ready for a fight um so moseley backed down as he always did because he was very much law and order and he would not go over a certain line if the police said he would always say i'm backing the police on this the forces but it's also i think he was worried he didn't want to get arrested because the next day he was going to berlin for his marriage and meeting with hitler um so there is a part of mosley that does want to jump in he he he likes the fight he's's a fencer, boxer, all this kind of stuff. But there's also a limit that he is part of a British tradition that is not like the Continentals,

that you are going to engage in serious kind of street fighting, which I think Hitler knew street fighting, which I think Hitler knew was one of the reasons why he never totally backed him. There is an element in Moseley that is fake, that isn't fully committed. It's a bit like the speeches. You can read accounts of people who went to the Earl's Court meetings and things, and they were swept up by the emotion that he could generate.

But they came out and they kind of thought, what do we do now? Rhetoric has a certain attraction, but then it kind of dissipates very quickly. And what is the left? It's so interesting that the Brits in the early 19th century always used to call Napoleon an adventurer, didn't they? That was like a sort of the insult, he's an adventurer. And Hitler certainly was, Mussolini certainly was, but perhaps deep down you're right, Mosley wasn't. He was actually kind of an establishment figure, whereas for Hitler, failure meant absolute penury, embarrassment, shame, sort of just nothingness.

So he had to keep going, he had to rip everything down, whereas deep down, perhaps, Mosley didn't want to destroy everything. I think that's true. I think there is that element of it. I mean, the people around him were, there were the aristocrats, middle class, et cetera, but there were a lot of kind of ordinary working class people,

totally committed. And I don't think he was willing to kind of sacrifice all he got. Again, Hitler saw that. He wanted them to get into the streets. I mean, there are some correspondence about you really got to get into the streets. I mean, there are some, there is some correspondence about you really got to get into the streets and it's street fighting and all that kind of thing

that is going to move you forward. And that's just not in the British tradition. And you say there's fighting between the policemen and the people who lived in the neighbourhood because initially the policemen tried to protect the rights of Moseley's men to do their march, to write the freedom of Moseley's men to do their march, to write the freedom of assembly and all that kind of stuff.

Yes. I think if it actually had happened, and certainly his I-Corps of the British Union fascists were ready for it, and they were going to do it, and it would have been very violent. Now, of course, one of the myths of Cable Street, which has been around for a long time, but it's very apparent in recent years when people love this, they're starting to recognise that things weren't as we've been told, or it seemed. The usual story is that this broke the back of the British Union and fascists. But it's not true, because in fact, it increased support for the BUF. Their support post-Cable Street went up, and people were more attracted to the BUF.

They got more members, partly, I think, maybe because they didn't engage in the fighting. They thought they were responsible fascists, as it were. And so they started then to campaign more at the East End. And that's when some of the worst violence happened. And there was the smashing of shop windows and attacks on people. And it became very unsafe to go through the East End if he were Jewish. I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Alan Orjanaga.

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They reorganize with the idea that they would come back and they start a much more like local campaigning, creating local branches ready for maybe an election. And Moseley has made some alliances. I mean, he knows the Duke of Windsor and had threatened to use his stormtroopers, as it were, during the abdication crisis. And Churchill was involved with that. And he made alliances with some of the extreme right, which involved leading aristocrats and a few MPs who were appeasers. Moses' strategy was to keep Britain out of the war, out of the European war. He was campaigning for that, And of course, that had very strong

support amongst the British population. The British population did not want to go to war. And if there'd been an election, they would have probably thrown out the parties. So he saw an opportunity. When war came, he saw this as an opportunity, that he would be the front person to kind of stop the war. They did put up candidates. It didn't do terribly well, but the campaign was building. There were people like Beaverbrook, who was against the war, was prepared to negotiate peace. And there were others within the aristocracy,

even within the royal family, were willing to do this. So there was seen as being some kind of potential. And Moseley also set up a secret part of the BUF. In case there was war, in case they were interned, there would be a secret organization that would keep the movement going. There were attempts to make links to Germany and Italy to see about if there could be some kind of alliance, because essentially, he would allow Germany to do whatever he wanted in Europe as long as Britain was allowed to keep the empire, which was not unusual because that was actually what Hitler was suggesting to some of the appeasers and some of what was regarded

as the Peace Party. Gradually, this was seen as a threat. And of course, in May of 1940, when the British Army is losing in Europe and Churchill is in, there is this huge tension within government. And there is this weekend where the records go very thin. They've obviously been weeded. And there is evidence that Churchill has a wobble that maybe we do have to negotiate. And at the same time, Churchill is using the threat of Mosley with Roosevelt over aid from America. from America and it is in the record he says look if you don't help us I could be overthrown and Mosley will be in power and then the Germans will win and he's used as a threat so he still has a role he doesn't have a big movement or

whatever but potentially because of the German successes, he is suddenly becoming back to the forefront. And so action is taken, which is the interment of the BUF 700 and of Mosley himself and Diamond, which is a decision that they find difficult because Mosley had been an MP. They really don't like the idea of interning a British MP. And also Mosley uses the law a lot because they tried to intern half a dozen BUF members in September when war was declared, and he immediately went to court and got them freed. They think he will do the same and will embarrass the government.

And he hasn't really broken any law. They don't have much evidence that he is in contact with Nazi Germany. MI5 have been monitoring the movement and they know about the funding from Italy. They know about some funding from Italy. They know about some contacts with the Europeans, but they have no evidence at all about any funding from Germany. But they do take the decision and he and his wife spend much of the Second World War in Brixton prison. They do. They seem to cope quite well. There was lots of kind of smear stories about him being in luxury

and champagne going in and all these kind of things. But in fact, Mosley didn't drink. So it was always wider than mark. And he took the opportunity to read, think. He was already thinking about kind of post-period. I mean, Hitler kept Mosley in his back pocket. The possibility of an invasion of Britain was still on the cards into 41, 42.

The idea would have been that Mosley would have played a key role. They probably looked to Lloyd George as the person who would be kind of prime minister, but Moseley would be an important figure. And they had contact with some of the BUF people who had gone to Germany at the beginning of the war. at the beginning of the war. At the end of the war, he came out and it was kind of thought that British fascism was over.

That was it. Initially, he was a denier of kind of the atrocities, et cetera. They really couldn't believe in that. And he thought that they were made up, et cetera. I think gradually they came to recognize that it was true. But they had made plans for the revival. I mean, anti-Semitism during the war was still there.

And in some ways was even stronger than it had been pre-war. But he wasn't intending to build an organisation around anti-Semitism. He had this idea of Europe a nation, that European countries would come together against Russia, against the United States, and they would be made up of sovereign nations. In some ways, a bit like extreme right Maloney in Italy now. But it was much more of a crusade. And part of that was you needed a movement to back you, to have some standing in Europe.

So he created the union movement which was really a relatively minor neo-fascist grouping of former supporters who again were utterly devoted to him there were a couple occasions where they kind of may have grown posed something of a threat particularly when there was the jewish terrorism over palestine and british soldiers were killed there were riots liverpool which they tried to exploit but it was never any kind of major political force and his time had gone then and i think he realized that. And he created this European crusade, and he would go on fairly, well, open and secretive meetings to Europe where he would meet neo-fascists from Italy, Spain,

you know, Otis Skolzany, former SS people, and they were creating these international and European-wide neo-Nazi networks. Quite what that is about, it's hard to ascertain. I mean, I spoke to some of the Mosleites, and they are split between, there were a group of mosleyites most of the dead now but um who were willing to talk to me because they wanted to get mosley's name out to his ideas etc and by any means possible and then there were others much more secretive if you were against

mosley they would not talk to you they were the keeper of the records. But some of them said that, you know, Mosley would come back and they would have meetings, etc. And then he would disappear off. And they had no idea what he was doing. He would never tell them what he was doing. It was all very secretive. And that carried on throughout the 1950s. And he moved initially first to Ireland, where he was under surveillance,

but much less surveillance than he would be here. He had money, which was invested in Switzerland. He used for his campaigns. He was wealthy. And then he moved to France, where he used to dine with Duke of Windsor, where he used to dine with Duke of Windsor, and they would reminisce about the 1930s, and Windsor would say he had supported him in the 30s and wished he'd done more to support him.

But I think it was a bit of a facade, really. I'm not sure that Mosey was up to much. And then, of course, there is the Notting Hill riots of 1958, which he saw as the opportunity. And this was the great man would come back, would step in. Immigration was the big problem. He campaigned hard in Notting Hill, but his election result was disastrous.

That was really the end of Moseley as any kind of political figure. So he campaigned on the platform of reversing Commonwealth immigration into Britain, sending migrants home. Yes. Again, I think it's probably incredibly cynical. He saw that as an election opportunity. I think deep down, he just didn't believe in those kind of things.

But he would use it to attempt to gain power. Well, I think cynically using immigration as a way of gaining political power, thank goodness that's been consigned to gain power. Well, I think cynically using emigration as a way of gaining political power is, thank goodness that's been consigned to the past. Yeah. He was also a Holocaust denier. I mean, we should say he started, I mean, all of the sections since the Second World War, I've just been listening to, sitting here listening to you thinking, I'm just very, very glad that in that era people didn't have access to social media, because this all sounds like very fertile, conspiratorial, sort of international networking territory for people to reach out and build networks of unsavory people and ideas.

Yes, I think you're right. And for mostly, I mean, the problem with British politics in one way is that no third party has ever succeeded because of the electoral system. The new party attempted to break that through the use of modern media. It was the first political party really to do that. But even so, it spent a lot of money on it. It didn't work. It couldn't do it.

Of course, in the 1950s, he didn't have that kind of money to do. Unless you have huge resources against the two main parties, you're just going to get nowhere. But social media would have undoubtedly helped. So he was spurned, ignored by the major press etc and i do know that because i spoke to an mi5 officer who whose responsibility was to cover the union movement in the mid-50s and he went to the meetings and he sat there with special branch we took We took notes, et cetera. We listened to him. And he said he was still impressive, but he said it didn't add up to much. It wasn't a threat.

There was nothing there. He said he went back and he wrote up the reports, put them in a file, and they went on the shelf, and that was the last of it. From the mid-'50s, he was never regarded as being any kind of threat. From the mid-50s, he was never regarded as being any kind of threat. There is the strange episode in 1968 of the Mountbatten alleged coup against the Labour government. Cecil King is recorded in his diaries that he's in touch with Moseley and perhaps it's time for the great man to come back.

I mean, he's still there hanging around, but that really wasn't going to happen. His ideas also didn't really resonate very much. The British fascists that came up, the British National Party, the 60s, the National Front of the 70s, tried to get away from Moseley. They regarded him as being the old man and old ideas. So he didn't resonate there.

And in Europe, fascism had new kind of people to take on, Nietzsche and Evola and others. And Mosley wasn't. His ideas were thought to be a bit old-fashioned. They were much more psychological and spiritual in the way the ideas that had been taken up in Europe. And his were much more practical, planning, economic kind of ideas. I mean, it's interesting now to look at them and I mean they were never really taken up except some were taken up by the Labour Party in 1945,

the idea of planning and state intervention but not quite on the scale that he thought of. And, you know, fascism now on the extreme right have a lack of ideas. They don't really have any kind of ideology or any idea about what to do about the situation other than use, immigration and apathy and disgust with the system and things so his ideas have really kind of disappeared interesting thank you so much indeed for coming on the podcast talk all about it so much food for thought in there um do tell us uh what your book is called black shirt oswald mosley and british fascism well thank you very much indeed for coming on the podcast to talk about it. Okay. Thanks. you