Dan Snow's History Hit - Queer History

Episode Date: October 12, 2020

Sacha Coward joined me on the podcast to discuss queer history. We talked about Luisa Casati, Queen Anne, the Gay Liberation Front, and other stories of non-heteronormative relationships.Subscribe to History Hit and you'll get access to hundreds of history documentaries, as well as every single episode of this podcast from the beginning (400 extra episodes). We're running live podcasts on Zoom, we've got weekly quizzes where you can win prizes, and exclusive subscriber only articles. It's the ultimate history package. Just go to historyhit.tv to subscribe. Use code 'pod1' at checkout for your first month free and the following month for just £/€/$1.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. It's the start of another week. It's exciting, we've got lots going on this week. It's the anniversary of the Battle of Hastings this week. So we've got a bunch of medieval history podcasts and TV shows on the channel coming at you, including a big original documentary on the Battle of Hastings, involving some of the best historians currently working in the field. This podcast is about something completely different. This is the excellent Sasha Coward. He's a queer historian. He's a broadcaster. He works in museums. He does tours of queer history around London.

And he's an absolute legend. He's coming on the podcast because it's the 50th anniversary of GLF, which was the forerunner of Pride, as you will hear. I'm going to talk about queer history. History Hit TV is having one of its insane autumnal sales, because this week is the anniversary of the Battle of Hastings. So because of that, we've launched our huge new documentary, our original content, on that Battle of Hastings, the tumultuous year of 1066. You can see that, lots of other 11th century content. If you go to historyhit.tv, it like the netflix for history and if you use

the code 10661066 you get a month for free then you get three months which is one pound euro or dollar for each of those three months so you're deep into 2021 and you're only paying a dollar a month crazy so head over there and check it out head over there and check it out. Sasha, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. It's delightful to be here. Thanks for having me. You should probably tell us what queer history is. For a lot of people, that might sound a little bit threatening or a little bit alien. And I guess I might as well prefix this by saying I'm going to use the word queer a lot. Some people feel a bit uncomfortable with that word. And I completely understand why a lot of people who are part of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender community also feel uncomfortable with that word. So I grew up and the word queer was kind of an insult as well as an

identity. So it was kind of reclaiming something which was used as a negative and a way to talk about people who might define as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, anyone that isn't heteronormative. might define as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, anyone that isn't heteronormative. And this is applied to history, it's applied to art, it's basically just a different lens to look at history through. I think the big thing for me is even though we call it queer history, it's just history. Like it's still the same thing, it's still going to follow by the same rules and if you're into history you are also into queer history whether you know it or not it's just stories that focus or ways of platforming identities of people that we haven't spoken about very much when we've told history before in the kind of academic textbooks and a lot of the documentaries up until today often lgbtq people queer people don't get a

look in so this is just kind of way to try and balance it out by focusing on those people's stories. One of the reasons we're talking to you this week is because it is the 50th anniversary of the GLF. Talk me through the GLF. Who were they? What were they? Well, they were the Gay Liberation Front. So we're sort of talking about in the UK, the early origins or some of the main origins of queer activism. So this was groups of lesbian, gay, bisexual people coming together and basically trying to change the landscape of the world around them, trying to make it fairer and safer for everyone. At this stage, we would use the word gay as kind of synonymous for all of these different identities. Nowadays, we might include trans. We talk about intersex, non-binary. It's become a much bigger club, a much more inclusive club. But at that time, the word gay kind of was a

shorthand for all of those identities. So they were a group of people who came together, particularly gay, bisexual and lesbian men, to start talking about the rights and campaigning for the rights of queer people in the UK. We often talk about Stonewall. So if you've done any historical research into the US, Stonewall is their big moment. It's that big queer moment where suddenly there was a kind of tension point, a breaking point. And this allowed the conversation around being lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender to suddenly come into the this, and organisations like the GLF and also CHE, for example, were also really, really important in kind of platforming this and putting forward an agenda which include all of us.

Extraordinary bravery. At the time, it was either still technically a capital crime, or it was certainly immediate social professional ostracism. Hugely brave. I mean, I realise that as a person who calls himself a queer historian, a folklorist, a museum worker, who is able to be out about my identity, I really am standing on the shoulders of giants.

Like, I'm aware how easy I have it comparatively. And I wouldn't be able to do the work that I do today. I wouldn't be able to talk about the people that I talk about today if it wasn't for these incredible, well, I'll call them heroes that came before us, all of these men and women who had to put their lives and their livelihoods on the line and really, really risk everything so that people like me get to talk on the podcast today. It's interesting because you're someone who's broadcasted and spoken and been part of exhibitions and museums about queer history. Are we able to talk confidently about people's sexual orientation or identity in the past? Yeah, and it's a really important thing to talk about because obviously those words just didn't exist. So in the past, people wouldn't

be referring to themselves necessarily as lesbians or as gay men or bisexual, transgender. They just wouldn't be using those words. They either had different words or the very understanding of those identities was just different. You know, they didn't have space to have those kind of conversations. So I get a lot of fear. So for example, I do cemetery tours. I do them with my friend Sheldon Goodman. We did one for Brompton Cemetery where we were asked to come in and explore the stories of LGBTQ plus people in those cemeteries. And we did get some response of people saying, is it okay to, you know, metaphorically dig up the stories of dead people and start labelling them with labels that they would never have used? And you are walking a tightrope. It's a really difficult place to be because those words weren't there. At the same time, I would posit a few things that there are lots of words that have changed

throughout history. The word marriage. So the word marriage today means something very different to what it meant in ancient Greece or Tudor times, but we still call it marriage. And that's just maybe I'm being a bit sneaky with that example but our job as queer people who are doing history is try to be as faithful to the lived experience so the lives of people who can't tell their own stories I never in my tours say this was a gay man this was a bisexual woman because that wouldn't be accurate but what I can say is the way this person lived their life, the way that they expressed their identity, the people they loved and the people who loved them show that today they might, they might have used these terms. And as an LGBTQ community, their stories, whether they use those words or not, are really valuable to us because we can see ourselves reflected in the past. But it is,

yeah, it's a really nuanced, complicated conversation to have. Speaking of the cemetery, tell me about Louisa Cassati. So she was a contessa and she was basically the Lady Gaga of her day, if I can take a bit of a liberty in saying that. She was extreme. She didn't want to be beautiful, this is a quote. She wanted to be a living work of art. So she was known for having these parties where she would descend down the spiral staircase with two cheetahs on diamante leashes with a live snake around her neck. She would dress as a chandelier. She would sometimes pretend to be a statue. And so her guests would walk around nibbles going, where's Louisa? Where's Louisa? And suddenly she would spring to life just to scare them. She was a really bizarre, artistic, creative, bohemian

character. And the reason we tell her story in the tour is because she kind of had room in her life to love everyone. The fact that they were men or women was kind of irrelevant to her. So famously, she went to the Isle of Capri, where she went around with a group of women who were known as the Extraordinary Women, and were very early parts of what women who were known as the extraordinary women and were very early parts of what would later be known as the lesbian movement and she basically met an artist called romaine brooks who would probably have described herself as being a lesbian although again that's open to interpretation and they had a very intense friendship which resulted in them painting each other nude and with romaine's girlfriend becoming incredibly jealous.

There are lots of stories of Louisa. Basically, she loved a bit of spin. So at a party, she would flirt with anyone and everyone. And the more outrageous she could be, the better. So her story is fabulous. And she has this tiny little urn. You'd expect to have a huge headstone bedecked in jewels. But she has this little urn,

which people still leave like makeup and photographs for her because she actually died in Primrose Hill in poverty so she has this it's just a great story to tell this huge character that many people haven't heard of who inspired fashion designers all the way to today and had this amazing bodacious bisexual lifestyle and then kind of retired into obscurity now she's one of those people that when I tell her story I never feel bad kind of talking about her this way because her whole life was about spectacle she wanted people to know who she was how she dressed and what she did. What impact does you telling these stories do you think have on well on everybody but particularly

perhaps people who have been through their own battles, have been through their own issues with coming out and acceptance within a family or community? It's why I do it is because of that. I want everyone to enjoy these stories. So whoever you are, however you are identified, please, please enjoy these stories. But in particular, it has this special connection with people who are part of this community. So when I was a kid, I have always been a nerd. I love museums, I love old stuff. Never happier than sitting in the British Museum or the Natural History Museum sketching at the age of seven or eight. That was just pure joy. But I do remember about the age of 14 or 15, going around the British Museum on a school trip and just seeing all these images of

men and women in love, cuddling, hugging, marrying, showing affection, and just suddenly realising that I love museums, but they didn't necessarily love me back. And what I mean by that is there's this weird kind of relationship you have going on where you're like, I never see myself. So as a teenager, and I think a lot of queer teenagers feel this way, you go, well, then I must be a weird aberration. And if I can't see myself anywhere in any time of history in any place then I guess I'm on my own I guess we're just the weirdos and so when you start to discover wait a second there was this incredible you know contessa there was this king this queen these people who were living lives that are not the same as ours but they kind of show an element of

similarity that you go wow we have always been here our stories have always been here and we're not these bizarre freaks we are just part of that rich fabric of human history so that's why i do it i love to see on our tours we have people who may never have come to the museum before or to the graveyard the cemetery whatever tour we're doing because they've kind of felt a little bit like this maybe isn't a place for them, that maybe people like them aren't in a place like this. But when you kind of extend that invitation and say, hey, we're going to try and tell stories that you will connect to, it really does bring it to life. I've seen people cry and get very

emotional. I've seen people come up afterwards and be really thankful, particularly older generations saying, we never learned about this at school. I never read about this in the books. It's really just, it's so validating to hear that people like you exist. You mentioned kings and queens. Well, we've been talking a lot recently about Queen Anne, haven't we? After the movie, The Favourite came out. Have you got any insights into Queen Anne, haven't we, after the movie The Favourite came out? Have you got any insights into Queen Anne and her orientation? It's a fascinating story. And again, talking about labels, I would never describe Queen Anne or Sarah Churchill as being lesbian, bisexual.

I wouldn't use those words. All I can go off is, so I used to work in Greenwich at the National Maritime Museum, which is right next to the Queen's House. And if you go in the Queen's House and you walk in and look up at the ceiling, you'll see that these nine panels that are empty. And I always thought that was just the design, but it turns out they used to be filled with these beautiful, ornate paintings by Horatio and Artemisia Gentileschi. And these were then given by

Queen Anne to Sarah Churchill, and then they were then taken to the Marlborough estate. So that's where you see them now. So, okay, it's a bit of an iffy metaphor but this was a relationship between two women that was so powerful it brought down the ceiling and whether you go okay that was definitely sexual that was definitely romantic for me is almost irrelevant because it was powerful like it shaped politics it was the talk of the court it you know, the people were talking about what was going on with Anne, what was going on with Sarah. Does Sarah have too much influence over Anne? What is causing this? And if you read their letters and remembering that at the time, yes, women wrote romantic letters to each other. That was seen as very normal. That wasn't necessarily a profession of romantic love or passion. But still, if you just take these letters like out of context and read them,

they're two women that care about each other a huge amount. And then the fact that if you have seen the film, the film doesn't claim to be accurate, by the way. It's a fantastical image of a real space and time. You see that these two women fall out on a huge level. And you have the level in which that Sarah Churchill probably or possibly starts spreading rumors and even helping to hand out pamphlets about Queen Anne which talk about dark deeds in the night and things going on in Queen Anne's bedroom there's a lot of gossip about the relationship between Queen Anne and Sarah

Churchill, as well as other women. So do you go off on that and say, well, definitely, I can therefore say Queen Anne was bisexual or a lesbian? No, I've not met her. I've not had that conversation. To be honest, she probably wouldn't tell me anyway. But I can infer that for Queen Anne, relationships and friendships with women were incredibly powerful. So just on that level, I can say that a lot of my friends, particularly my lesbian and bisexual female friends, will really resonate with that. They'll know about writing letters. They'll know about the rejection that happens when a female friendship goes awry.

So there will be something there. It's not about saying this is definitely this. Queer history isn't about stamping a label on it it's about saying hey let's just take a moment and look at this maybe from a slightly different perspective presumably queer history is kind of hiding in plain sight whether it's london venues whatever it is yeah it's it's everywhere i mean we have like i said before we're woven into the tapestry of humanity. So if you go on the tube today, maybe not at the moment, it being, you know, difficult, but if you wander the streets at any time in London, you will see all kinds of people. And in many ways, the world has always

been that. It's been cosmopolitan in different ways at different times. But you know that, you know, if you were to take a snapshot of the history of the world today, it would include all of these lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender voices. And so, you know, if you took that same snapshot in the court of Henry VIII, yes, you're going to find those voices. The challenging thing is, and I guess we've touched upon it, is these voices don't necessarily shout, they whisper, and they don't, they're not direct. You never get a letter that says, you know, hello, I am a gay man and I am in the court of Henry VIII and I love another man and this is certain, so and so and so. You never get that. You get this elusive kind of trail of breadcrumbs that you follow and then you make an inference.

And that's the challenging thing. But then I would argue, and maybe you agree or disagree, Dan, that history is about at some stage making inferences. It is difficult to come down to that clean cut, this is the hard engraved fact. You just have to take all your evidence and sort of present a case. And then it's in that open court where everyone else can go, well, I think, or I disagree, or have you read this? But yeah, I think it's always there. And if you don't look for it, you'll never find it. So you have to be out there looking for it. And if you don't look for it, you'll never find it.

So you have to be out there looking for it. I completely agree, buddy. And well done you for looking at it. So where can people follow your work? I am on Twitter far too much. And you may have to block me because I can be quite inane. But it is Sasha, that's S-A-C-H-A, Downspace Coward, C-O-W-A-R-D, like Noel Coward, who is my great, great uncle,

which is one of my favourite claims to fame. Sasha, Dan Space Coward. And I've also got a website, so I put stuff up on there and get about a fair bit. I love talking about the stuff I love. And thank you for talking to us today. That was fantastic. Thank you, Dan. Hi everyone, it's me, Dan Snow. Just a quick request. It's so annoying, and I hate it when other podcasts do this, but now I'm doing it, and I hate myself. Please, please go onto iTunes, wherever you get your podcasts,

and give us a five-star rating and a review. It really helps, and basically boosts up the chart, which is good, and then more people listen, which is nice. So if you could do that, I'd be very grateful. I understand if you don't want to subscribe to my TV channel. I understand if you don't want to buy my calendar, but this is free. Come on, do me a favour.

Thanks.