Dan Snow's History Hit - Refugees, Sexual Violence and the Fall of the Third Reich

Episode Date: August 8, 2020

In this episode, Dan speaks to award-winning political correspondent and commentator, Svenja O'Donnell, about her remarkable grandmother's personal story of migration, sexual violence and murder during the fall of the Third Reich. Svenja's beautiful, aloof grandmother Inge never spoke about the past. All her family knew was that she had grown up in a city that no longer exists on any map: Königsberg in East Prussia, a footnote in history, a place that almost no one has heard of today. But when Svenja impulsively visited this windswept Baltic city, something unlocks in Inge and, finally, she begins to tell her story. Svenja retraced her grandmother's footsteps all over Europe and uncovered a desperately tragic secret that her grandmother had been keeping for sixty years. This remarkable story highlights the human side of the momentous tectonic shifts we speak about from history. 75 years ago this year millions of people, like Svenja's grandmother, were displaced in Europe, victims of terrible regimes and grueling conflict. Subscribe to History Hit and you'll get access to hundreds of history documentaries, as well as every single episode of this podcast from the beginning (400 extra episodes). We're running live podcasts on Zoom, we've got weekly quizzes where you can win prizes, and exclusive subscriber only articles. It's the ultimate history package. Just go to historyhit.tv to subscribe. Use code 'pod1' at checkout for your first month free and the following month for just £/€/$1.

Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth, now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks, or wherever audiobooks are sold. Hi everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. Svenja O'Donnell is a fantastic journalist.

I've been a big fan of hers, she's a friend of mine. I've been a big fan of hers for years. She has a very cosmopolitan background, as you'll hear. She's got Irish, German, brought up in Paris, lives in London now. And she's just written her first book, Inger's War. It turns out that her remarkable grandmother, seems she's very close, had a dark story of forced migration, sexual violence, murder, terrible hardship, all at the end of the Third Reich, during the collapse of the Third Reich 75 years ago this year. After an offhand remark from Svenja, our grandmother started telling her this stuff and this book is a result of those conversations and historical research. It's a remarkable story of the human consequences of the gigantic historical, the tectonic shifts that we talk about so often on this podcast millions and millions of displaced people were moving around europe 75

years ago this summer brutalized suffering victims of terrible criminal regimes and appalling conflict if you want to watch any documentaries about the second world war the place to do so is history hit tv it's like netflix for history we've got all the back episodes of the podcast we are growing bigger bigger all the time uh if you want to head over to history hits tv you can use the code pod one pod one you get a month for free and then you get another month for just one pound euro dollar whatever currency you're paying in pretty sweet if you go to the history hit dot if you go to history.com slash shop you can buy a special historical face covering so if you go to historyhit.com slash shop, you can buy a special historical face covering. So if you want to have Winston Churchill's jawline, you want to have Abraham Lincoln's jawline

when you're going to the shops wearing face coverings to protect other people, you can do so at historyhit.com slash shop. Go and check it out. In the meantime, everyone, here's Svenja O'Donnell. Enjoy. way. Svenja, it is very, very special to have you on the podcast with this remarkable project. Just tell everyone, give everyone just a sense of what this story is about. Well, this story started when my grandmother started confiding in me a few years ago and telling me the story of her past, which she'd always kept back. It's a story of a woman who lived World War Two on the wrong side. She was a German who was born in what was then Königsberg, now Kaliningrad. And I'd like to describe it as

a story of what happens to the people in the middle. So not the heroes or the villains in a war, not the main actors of a war, but the people who find themselves trapped in events beyond their control and to me it raises a question of what would we have done in the same circumstances a question that remains a gray area even today and so your your grandma i mean it's so i always find it fascinating talking to friends um with with at least that part of the world because growing up in in my in my little bubble grandparents were heroic figures who were on the quote unquote right side of the war and did and did heroic things and we and of course we didn't explore their trauma but we they they were able to gain great happiness from recollecting those days and and

they knew they were on the right side of history as it were and and for friends like you with with your heritage it must be completely different I mean were you aware before your grandmother confided in you were you aware that there was a dark untalked about past there or did you just not think about it well my mother my mother, you know, moved from Germany when she was 18 and rebuilt her life in France. I grew up in France. And in France, when certainly when you were a child of the 80s and the 90s, like I am, you learn that everyone's grandparents were in the resistance. And of course, I was very conscious of being the one half German child in the class. My mother always told me that her family had not been Nazis. But, you know, when I grew up and I became a journalist, I was very sceptical of that. My grandmother never

really talked about the war or much about her past. There were a few things dropped here and there. So when she started telling me about her coming of age, which she was 15 when war was declared, I had a fear that there were going to be Nazis in the closet, so to speak. And instead, I discovered a story that was perhaps much more ordinary, And instead, I discovered a story that was perhaps much more ordinary, but heartbreaking. A story of, first of all, good people, fundamentally good people who perhaps did not do heroic things, but who tried to live their lives as best they can, who had to deal with the fact that the world as they knew it had changed irrevocably very very fast indeed and he then had to rebuild

everything from scratch it's it's a story of refugees essentially of women who are always sort of left behind both in their accounts of war but also by the turn of events they were sort of left at home to cope with the repercussions um And I think from a German perspective, it's a story that is not talked about enough, partly because of Germans' reticence to talk about their own identity, because Germany has done a huge amount of work on owning and facing up to the atrocious crimes of the Nazi regime. But at the same time forgetting that whole slice of trauma that so many people, particularly German women, endured. Why did your grandmother start talking to you? What triggered that?

I was a correspondent in Moscow, and I went to Kaliningrad, which I knew my mother was born in when it was still Königsberg, it was still German and I called her you know we weren't particularly close at the time but I called it to mark the occasion and you've got to understand my grandmother was someone who had very carefully curated her life she was fairly emotionless she was very controlled and when I told her where I was she didn't know about my trip she started crying And it was the first time that I'd heard her express emotion, really. And I think what followed was she started talking to me about reminiscences of our childhood. And gradually, when she faced further traumas in her life,

she lost her husband, the rest all started to come out. if she lost a husband, the rest all started to come out. At what stage did you suddenly realise that this was worth researching, donating years of your life to writing this book? So I think when I started to realise that this was really a story about women and women overcoming the hand they're dealt with in life. When she started talking about this great love story that she'd had with my grandfather during the war, when I realised that there were not Germans per se in the war,

there were just two kids who happened to be on the wrong side of it, who did not want to be involved in these events but were. on the wrong side of it, who did not want to be involved in these events, but were. And when I realised that her aloofness and her reserve was due to things that she'd experienced in the past, I suddenly realised that we were not just dealing about a story of East Prussia, and though that's fascinating in itself, a dry story of a land that the world has forgotten, fascinating in itself, a dry story of a land that the world has forgotten, but a very personal story of a woman who has dealt with her past with silence, as so many women have.

So let's talk about that past. She talked to me about what her and her community, through the beginning of the war, the beginning and middle of the war, how did they respond? How did they survive, flourish, suffer under Nazi German rule? And also, sending loved ones, what trauma was there even before the arrival of an external enemy? I mean, were they losing loved ones on distant battlefields? Well, I mean, one thing I should say is that Königsberg was, there were many German communities across Eastern Europe,

but Königsberg was very particular in that it had been German for seven centuries. And it was always sort of mythologized as this embattled German frontier land because of the events that followed World War I and the creation of the Polish Corridor, they were already isolated. So the Nazis seized upon that land as a kind of symbol of, you know, embattled German culture. In reality, you know, they felt pretty detached from

the main Reich. You know, Prague was as close as Berlin, for example, it was to get to Berlin or to get to Western Germany took a very long time was very difficult. So their culture was rooted in the East. When it comes to the war, at the beginning of the war, they had a pretty easy time of it. Because they were so far removed, it felt almost normal. But when young men started to be enlisted, they were usually sent to the Eastern Front. And the Eastern Front, certainly from about the end of 1942, became one of the worst battlegrounds that you could possibly be on. The conditions, largely because of Nazi mismanagement, were horrific. The soldiers were ill-equipped. They were not used to the cold. They were sort of real sort of cannon fodder,

they were poorly trained, they didn't have enough food. And I think the Eastern Front, which became sort of famous in itself in sort of stories of war for absurd loss of life, is best encapsulated by the Battle of Stalingrad, where this entire battalion of the army was sacrificed when their own general who led them knew that this was absolutely pointless. And then Hitler effectively ordered his government to lie about their fate. So a very large number of men were captured,

but their families were told they were dead. Eventually, the truth leaked out. But the extent of the sacrifices, they were willing to erase a part of their own army from existence so as not to lose face. The other thing we should, of course, talk about is that Königsberg had, compared to places like Berlin, a small, but a very old and thriving Jewish community. And although that has been gradually rebuilt in the last 20 years or so, it was, for a while, entirely obliterated. But you're right, I'm reminded that Immanuel Kant came from Königsberg, so it was, we credit them, the most German thinkers. And so did your grandmother remember that element of the Holocaust,

the Jews being removed? Did she talk about that? She did. She, when we spoke about it, I sort of trod sort of rather carefully around the subject. She started talking about it because she talked about, she went to finishing school in Berlin and she had a sort of schoolgirl passion on her roommate there.

He was this extremely beautiful, talented girl. Bear in mind, this is in about 1940. And who she found packing her bags and crying one day and asking her why she was so upset. This girl turns around and says, well, don't you realise I'm Jewish? Which highlights two things. How, firstly, how naive she was. And she said herself, she was so stupid that she didn't realise, you know, the reality of being Jewish, even in 1940 in Germany. But secondly, that a lot of Jews who were, you know, German, first and foremost, stayed that late until it was too late to go. And the thing that really devastated her was that she couldn't remember that girl's name.

And when I asked her, fairly forthrightly, you know, did you know, did people know what had happened? She said, well, I think people deep down knew atrocities were happening, but they did not want to see. And I think that, for me, that underlined a really important point, is that, you know, your neighbours start disappearing. You can tell yourself a story that, oh, you know, they've been resettled out east or, you know, again, the realities of the of the death camps

was was was kept sort of secret for a while but it doesn't take a huge leap of the imagination to know that that a very major line in humanity has been crossed but if you accept that then you have to question the premise of your entire life, the entire life that you've built, the life that you've taken for granted. In the case of her father, you know, this, this business, this success that he built. And, and then, then you're on very shaky ground indeed. And of course, to speak out back then would have meant arrest at best. So I think it's very, I always thought as a child that you know of course I would have been one of the people who would stand up and be counted I think reality is is very very different when when does the war start to impact her even more directly well her her lover my

grandfather who she had a teenage romance with, who, you know, she had secretly become engaged to, had managed to defer his enlistment. He was someone who loved jazz and hated war, didn't want to fight. There came a point where he couldn't do so anymore. So in 42, at the end of 42, he gets sent off to the Eastern Front. And that's when she starts seeing war with very different eyes. She notices, when she's still in Berlin at the time, going around her daily life, that there are very few men there. So it's something that had never struck her before. She starts listening to updates of the war.

And the following year, after Stalingrad, you know, a real shift happens in the broader German population. Everyone realizes that this mythical Battle of Stalingrad is a lie. And they start tuning in much more to foreign radio stations who are reading out names of German prisoners of war. Obviously, this was a crime punishable by death. So she starts tuning in. She starts trying to listen. Her parents start trying to listen.

This idea that this regime is a sham and it becomes much more of a reality. When it really hits home is in late 1944, when she's back in Königsberg, and the Red Army breach this supposedly invincible border, and make one just one day incursion in the village of Nemezdov, which of course, the Nazis use for a great propaganda value, describing massacres, which, you know, atrocities no doubt happen, but it's very hard to verify them. But then people know that it's over. It's too late. Unfortunately, the government has also decreed that they are not allowed to leave. Again, we have this mythologizing of East Prussia,

this idea of the last stand. If you're a good Nazi, a good German citizen, you will stay and fight to the very end, whether you're my grandmother, who was a young woman of then 20, or a small child or an elderly man. So people are trapped and they're waiting for the Russians to come. And, you know, it's worth noting that while conditions were terrible for German soldiers on the Eastern Front, the German army committed atrocities on an absolutely enormous scale in the Soviet Union. So they know that revenge is coming. And unfortunately, they are the first territory to lie in the Red Army's path. just territory to lie in the Red Army's path. So they were fairly lucky in that in January,

suddenly this order to stay is lifted. By then, they're surrounded by land. So there's no escape that's possible by land. The trains to the west are being turned back. The Russians are about four hours walk away which is you know ridiculously close and they everyone flees for the coast there are two ports in the East Prussia region where large steamers military transport vessels are scrambled to collect civilians but also most importantly soldiers because even then they were trying to kind of prioritize munitions, even though everyone in the army pretty much knew the war was lost. So these, bear in mind, it's January, in a state which is now a Russian excavation, it's in the Baltic, so the temperatures are extremely cold. Many, many people are very elderly or very, very young. Many people die on the road to the coast because, you know, you make your way by this cart.

And then you and most of the infrastructure had already been destroyed by a bombing raid the previous summer. Once you arrive on the coast, it's a free fall and you have to cram into these boats. And of course, their route at some point came just behind a tragedy that remains one of the biggest naval casualties of civilians in any war, which is the sinking of the Vylim Gustlov, carrying 10,000 refugees, mainly refugees, women and children, torpedoed by a Soviet submarine, which of course sank, killing almost everyone on board. And they saw that. And so I think the reality of that flight and leaving everything behind, I think that's when they realised their lives as they'd known them

were irrevocably over. I mean, you know, they went through the bombing of Cummingsburg, survived, still kind of carried on, were trapped. And then in January, they realised, right, this is the life as we knew it will never be the same again. Where's your grandfather at this point? My grandfather at this point has been missing, presumed killed. It turns out that he is a prisoner of war in a Russian camp where he remains until about 1946. Of course, one of the things about German prisoners of war in Soviet territory is that many of them stayed there until as late as 1950 or even beyond.

They became these kind of pawns in the post-World War II reparations. So she doesn't know where he is. She's a single mother, effectively. And her parents are fairly elderly. They were quite old when they had her. And are completely, left completely sort of helpless by events. So she has to take charge. And this is, you know, a young girl whose main skills were learned at finishing school.

So she's not very well equipped for life. Land a Viking longship on island shores. Scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series, Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows

or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge

beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. And so they get to the coast, it's chaos, she's got all these dependents what happens then well she flirts her way onto one of the boats um they have tickets but every you know the the boats are sort of the tickets are only for about a tenth of the capacity of the people waiting there so everyone is trying to get on there she spots an officer who she is a very beautiful woman who she noticed him looking at her.

She flirts with him, hides her parents and her child. He invites her to shelter in his cabin and says, you know, I've got to go for a couple of hours. You'll be fine here. By the time he comes back, he finds her with two, you know, her two parents, a baby and some neighbours that they'd spotted on the quay. But, you know, as she puts it, she described this encounter very clearly. It's incredible sometimes that people of that age can have such clarity in recollecting details. When he came back, he looked at her and she said, ah, c'est la guerre in French as a sort of, you know, with a shrug. So she kept a little bit of sense of humor.

So they cross and this ship takes them to an island, which is still German, which is now off the Polish coast, called Wolin. And they have this extraordinary interlude where it's a sort of no man's land because people know this can't stay in German hands forever. But because of its weird geography, you know, it can be sort of kept German for maybe another three, four weeks. So her father seeks out an acquaintance on this island and tells him, you know, we don't want to go further west yet. We have to stay. And they stay in this woman's house.

And it turns out she realizes that this woman who takes them in and, you know, they have these amazing kind of dinners with, they use up all the coal in the house, all the food, everything. She's about to leave herself. She realizes that this is her father's mistress. This place was a famous spa destination

where he used to go to treat his arthritis every summer and she's realised that that's where they were staying. Eventually, they need to leave again and one of the tragedies at the time is that it's very hard for refugees to go to Western Germany because they're starting to close the borders to them. That's largely because food is running out. Because the Nazi food supplies were largely dependent on food imports from occupied territories, which have, of course, now all dried up.

So the population is almost starving. They therefore end up in an area that's still controlled by Germany, Denmark. And here again, they have a stroke of luck. They go to the south of Denmark, which is still, you know, holding people in a fairly disorganized manner. And they get, they have a spell in a school where all these refugees are put up. My mother, then a very small child, almost dies because these places are very bad, sanitation, you know, insufficient food. insufficient food and they are taken in by a Danish woman who takes them into her home and they're very, you know, she saves my mother's life effectively. They're happy there for a couple

of months and a few months and then eventually obviously Denmark is liberated and the East Prussian refugees, a lot of them who had ended up in Denmark, are put into internment camps. And that's where one of the most fascinating stories and most tragic stories I think that I discovered in my research begins. They escape the camps, but the people who didn't, which is the last, the vast number of East Prussian refugees, who, again, are mainly women and children, get put into these camps where they have no access to medical aid at all. And very controlled food rations. Now, Denmark was one of the luckier countries in World War Two in that they never really endured great food rations. Now, Denmark was one of the luckier countries in World War Two in that they never really endured great food privations. They were, you know, much better organized, clearly. And refugees in these camps are given a ration of 2000 calories a day. Now,

that in itself is not much, but it's not starvation level. For comparison, the wartime ration in the UK was about 3,000 calories. But you can survive on 2,000 calories. The problem was, overwhelmingly, they were with small children. And children under the age of eight were given a third of that ration. So about 665 calories. And what happened is that the children started dying in droves of preventable diseases. You know, diarrhea, you know, there was never an epidemic per se, but all these diseases that you would not have suffered from or would have been treated with medical aid, but also would not have happened if they'd received adequate nutrition. And thousands of children died in these conditions.

And for me, that was, it was a very hard fact to process because I'd always seen the Danes as the good guys in the war. You know, they famously saved almost the entire Jewish population. You know, my grandfather knew, had spent, you know, was part Danish,

had spent many years in some of his happiest times in Denmark. And to know that the sins of the fathers were visited on the children of these refugees in such a kind of, such a deliberate way was quite hard to take. And it gives you an idea of the amount of revenge

towards the broader German population, which is understandable in a way, but still shocking. Where was your mum at the end of the war? Where was your mum and your grandmother at the end of the war? Where was your mum at the end of the war? Where was your mum and your grandmother at the end of the war? They ended up in northern Germany as refugees. Now, it's strange to talk about German refugees in Germany,

but effectively that's what East Russians were. I mean, most of Germany, especially northern Germany at the time, had extreme food deprivation. I mean, most of the population, the rations after the war dropped to a thousand calories a day at one point. I mean, people were starving. So when you had all these incomers from the east, even though they were Germans, they were seen as, you know, people who were exploiting the system the system who didn't belong it was hard enough for people to sort of survive um it was also a place that was almost entirely destroyed so the infrastructure didn't work as i said even the food supply chain didn't work anymore um and the men those who who came back, had come back wounded, deeply traumatized.

And it's also a huge time of reckoning for the German population, because the extent of the Nazi regime's atrocities are laid bare for everyone to see. So no one can claim at this point that they no longer know what Germany had done. And so, you know, as a German then, even a German child like my mother is effectively a pariah in the eyes of the world. And to rebuild an identity in the way that Germany did, is actually quite remarkable. Is there anything that your grandmother couldn't talk to you about? Yeah, I mean, she revealed this great secret that she'd kept. You know, she was a victim of a rape by someone who ran the black market. She had become pregnant and had born a child who she gave up. And she told me about that after a long time.

And I questioned her before because she kept talking about the most terrible time being after the war. And I kind of wondered what that was about. And this finally came out when I least expected it. I was doing something completely different at the time. She was sitting at the kitchen table and she suddenly told me about this. I think... Land a Viking longship on island shores. scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the

poisoner's cup in renaissance florence each week on echoes of history we uncover the epic stories that inspire assassin's creed we're stepping into feudal japan in our special series chasing shadows where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. There are new episodes every week. Clause the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists,

entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. She told me about it once. I think it was the first time that she really talked about it. She couldn't talk to me about that child. I found out a little bit about what happened, but I think she felt judged by two things. It's a classic story of rape, really,

and of women being blamed, where she went to see this man because he'd helped her procure morphine for my grandfather's mother. He was very ill. She knew he was a little bit flirtatious. She'd been in his shop on his own she'd accepted a glass of wine and he'd taken advantage of that and and um whether he drugged her drink or she

drank too much but you know especially at the time this is a story which would have uh brought brought very little sympathy for her. The other thing is she felt unable to love the child that she bore from this rape. And I think she felt that was a failure as a woman not to love a child that you've born is something that she still struggled to deal with and couldn't really talk about in depth even though our generation you know is much better equipped to deal with these kind of emotions but I think for women of that time um the fact that you've been violated and then that

you've somehow failed in what was then seen as your primary function to be a nurturer, a mother, was very, very hard to process. When you were having these conversations with your grandmother, were you the journalist? Were you the acclaimed writer that you are? Or were you a granddaughter? So this is one of the really interesting things, actually, that I found when researching this book. You know, I've been a journalist for many years. I've delved in many people's tragedies.

You know, some of them have covered wars, I've covered intensely personal stories. And while some of them have deeply moved me, I always managed to sort of do it with my sort of professional hat on. At times when talking to my grandmother, so for example, when she told me about this rape, which effectively was the reason why her love affair with my grandfather didn't survive the period after the war. She was pregnant by the time he came back.

I thought, oh, part of me thought wow this is an incredible story you know this is such a sort of deeply moving person and then i had to something you have to stop myself and thinking so this is this is a you know my own flesh and blood my grandmother who's clearly and she was shaking when she told me this you know a good 60 years later and and I had to you know I had this continual conflict I think the other thing about delving into the past especially your own family's past is that I completely underestimated the effect it could have still today not just on me but on my mother and my uh and her and her sister child my my grandmother had of a long and happy marriage after the war and I I think I had underestimated the the depths of emotions and that that that these things can

cause I mean I'm lucky in that my family, you know, were very supportive and loved the book. And for my mother especially, it helped to understand her mother, who she had quite a difficult relationship with, in a way that she hadn't before. But I'd underestimated the past's power to wound. And it shook me because I'd never really allowed myself to think of my family, because they were Germans, as refugees or victims. It made me look at the refugee crisis that we're seeing today in quite a few parts of the world, unfortunately, in a completely different light. You know, these are not foreign people. These are not foreign people these are not alien people these are people you know this

could be you and me uh for a twist of events that could spiral out of control in a very very short time now that you've been through this process do you think there is a healing power in getting all this out and talking about all this um or do you or how or do you think it is or do you think it's forcing your mum people around you to to acknowledge trauma in the past that perhaps they they didn't really want to like what's the what's the effect been on you and your wider family i think it's had a you know after a few difficult uh first months it's had a, you know, after a few difficult first months, it's had a tremendously positive impact. I had a conversation with my godmother the other day, who is also a German who was born during the war. And, you know, she felt it was the voices of her you know, her mother, of herself, that kind of finally these voices were being heard. I think, you know, many, I've had sort of

correspondence from many women who've read the book who have been victims of sexual assaults, and who, because usually they were of an older generation, hadn't really felt able to speak about it. And he now realised that it's never too late, even though, yes, it can wound, just to acknowledge that this happened to you and that you were a victim is, I think, very cathartic. But I think more broadly, I see something more urgent in the questions that it's led me to reflect on.

You know, my family were good people. They were fairly ordinary people whose main fault was to struggle and to be slow to process the enormity of the change that had been thrust upon their country, and who were sort of fairly slow to act upon it. And when they realised it, it was too late. And I think that, you know, the rise of populism that we see in some parts of the world today, should lead us to reflect, you know, when is it, when have things gone too far? When has a line been crossed? What is that line? And yet, would I really be, you know, strident in my opposition to it? And I don't think any society, sadly, is immune to the kind of horror

that Germany went through. through well that's a cheerful thought to end on Svenja and Dora thank you very much indeed um that your book is um a stunning achievement uh and obviously makes me wish I was very close to my grandma it makes me wish as everyone I'm sure is saying at the moment makes me wish that I'd applied the rigor of a journalist and a writer to in talking to my grandma and interviewing her as you've done for yours and your family as well as all of us are very lucky to have had you do that because um they're the richer for it but so are we so are the general public um so congratulations the book is called the book is called Inger's War Inger being my grandmother's

name and it is on sale now everyone make sure you go and get it and read it. Thank you, Svenja. I've never had the history on our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone and finished and liquidated. One child, one teacher, one book, and one pen can change the world.

He tells us what is possible, not just in the pages of history books, but in our own lives as well. I have faith in you. Douglas Adams, the genius behind The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians.

Get Douglas Adams' The Ends of the Earth now at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. you