Dan Snow's History Hit - Richard III: How to find a Lost King

Episode Date: August 25, 2022

In August 1485, King Richard III was killed at the Battle of Bosworth. In 2012, having been lost for over 500 years, the remains of King Richard III were discovered beneath a car park in Leicester.Joining Dan on the podcast today is the very person who led that successful search to locate the grave of King Richard III. Following seven and a half years of enquiry, Philippa Langley identified the likely location of the church and grave, instructing exhumation of the human remains uncovered in that exact location.Philippa shares the adventure that marked the first search for the lost grave of an anointed King of England.This episode was produced by Mariana Des Forges, the audio editor was Dougal Patmore.If you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe to History Hit today!To download the History Hit app please go to the Android or Apple store.

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Philippa Langley, she was the person central to the discovery of Richard III in the car park back in 2012. central to the discovery of Richard III in the car park back in 2012. They found a king, one of the most maligned, infamous, talked about, studied, argued about kings in English and British history. Richard III, defeated by Henry Tudor at the Battle of Bosworth, killed at that battle. We don't know how, and tossed into a grave nearby. What happened to his body that day, or just after that day? Monday the 22nd of August 1485 has been the subject of debate ever since. Well, it was a subject debate that now seems to have been solved thanks to Philippa Langley and her pioneering research, meticulous research, that took her to a car park in Leicester.

And you'll hear all about that in this podcast. I'm talking to Philippa Langley, A, because she's brilliant and it's a subject I've long been fascinated by, and B, because there's a new movie out. She is on the big screen. She's being played by a proper actor. It's called The Lost King,

and it's the story of Philippa, the amateur historian who defies stodgy academics and all this kind of stuff to find rich the third's remains. You can imagine what they did to it when they sprinkled a little Hollywood magic on it. That's fine. That's what they do. In the meantime, here is Philippa herself to tell you in her own words how it all went down. Enjoy. Philippa, thank you very much for coming on. You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Philippa, you're now one of the most famous people in the British history scene. There's a movie about you, you've been in documentaries, you've talked about this. But take me back to before all that, when you were just a pioneering researcher intent on finding this lost grave. Why this mission? Why did you pick out Richard III? I was researching Richard III for a biographical screenplay. So it was Richard's life that I was really interested in. And so I was heading to Bosworth as part of that research. And I was a member of the Richard III Society. And they said, go to Leicester because there's some things to see there. So I did. And I went to car parks around New Street area because this was part of the large Greyfriars precinct priory where Richard had been buried originally after the Battle of Bosworth.

And that's kind of what started my journey because I had an intuitive experience in the northern end of one of those car parks and it sounds strange to say but it felt like I was walking on his grave. Okay so tell me more about that experience. Yeah well this was in 2004 and it's difficult to explain it feels like you know when you get goosebumps and you say, oh, someone's just walked over my grave, that sort of thing. It felt like that. So it was a nice warm spring day and I felt cold. And when I got home, I told my friends and family about it and they sort of said, look, don't dismiss it. Maybe it means something. So the following year, I actually went back to the car park because I wanted to check if it was real and I went back to the same spot this northern end of the social services car park

and had the exact same experience but this time I saw a hand-painted letter R on the tarmac clearly for reserved parking but this brought about a change in my research focus because I went from researching Richard's life to now looking at his death and his burial. When you thought I'd love to try and see what's under this car park how difficult was it from getting there to putting a spade in the ground? What was the bureaucracy? What was the sort of the friction you experienced? There was a lot, but I think we probably need to just jump back a little bit, just so I can give you some context of where everything was at at that point, because it will give you some idea of why the search for Richard was not something that people were jumping up at.

Because when Richard was killed in 1485 at the Battle of Bosworth, he was buried in this small priory church in Leicester called the Greyfriars. And about 50 or so years after that, after the dissolution of the monasteries, his grave became lost and it was said that his remains had been thrown into the nearby river Soar. So over a period of time, the Greyfriars precinct where the church was, was built on. And by the 1980s, it was said that the church was under a bank building and road, and the king's remains were in the River Soar. So it was a very difficult situation because these stories were so strong and so powerful that they'd even erected a plaque on the bank building to say this is the location

of the church in 1990 so where I was was really outwith the area. And had you identified the car park as a potential spot for his where did you think he was going to be buried within the church? identified the car park as a potential spot for his... Where did you think he was going to be buried within the church? Well, because he was a high-status burial, it was very likely that he'd be buried in the choir of the church. So if the church was located in Greyfriars Street, under this bank building and road, then it's very unlikely that we'd ever be able to find his grave.

But then something quite remarkable happened. There was a dig in 2007. And this was one of the big moments for me, because the dig took place right next door to the bank. And it was a commercial dig, they were going to build some flats or something, but they found no trace of the Greyfriars church. And this was in the northeast corner of the Greyfriars precinct. So that then logic and reason determined that the church must be further west. And further west was the social services car park and the other three car parks. So that was a huge moment. Tell me though, if it's one thing to think that someone might be

under a car park, it's another thing to get a digger out and start digging it up. What was that experience like? There was a long process. I mean, I visited that car park in 2004. And by the time I founded the Looking for Richard project, the research project, it was 2009. So you can imagine there was a lot of things, there was a lot of steps I went through to get there. But the most difficult thing was we were in one of the worst recessions in living memory since World War II at that point. And I approached Leicester City Council with a pitch because what I had done, as I'd realised that I needed to bring in television,

because a historian that I was working with called Dr. John Ashdown Hill, I'd asked him to contact Leicester in terms of potentially getting a dig underway for the search for the King's grave. And we'd received absolutely no response whatsoever. I think he'd sent it to the local archaeological team and we heard nothing. So I knew I needed something powerful to get people interested. And that's when I brought in television, got a production company interested. And then I took that pitch to Leicester City Council, who were the landowners for the social services car park. And luckily for me, they thought it was a really interesting idea.

They thought whether or not we found Richard, it could help put Leicester on the map a bit. So they supported the search and gave me permission as the client to not only undertake an archaeological search, but I could also do a ground penetrating radar survey and bring a television crew on board to do the documentary. So they were amazing. That was in September 2010. And what was the response like from historians or archaeologists or people that you came up against in the world of history? I think you have to remember, if we go back to sort of pre-2012, before the dig, this story of the King's remains being dug up and then thrown into the nearby River Soar was, it wasn't a story, it had become fact. And most of the leading historians had confirmed this in their books.

So that was the biggest single difficult obstacle that I had in trying to get people interested, because they all thought, well, you can go in search of him, that's great, but you're not going to find him because he's in the river. So we had to try and show them the research that we had, which explained that the bones in the river story didn't really have evidence to support it. And it did look like a myth. That one was huge. Yeah, that was huge. And trying to get academics interested with that story, so well known, was very difficult. Did you experience snobbery? You were, I guess, a quote-unquote amateur,

and you were part of the Richard III Society. So you were, I don't know, was there some difficulties around that? Not with most people, there wasn't, no. But there were a handful who were a bit difficult. But I just had to ignore it and get on because the most important thing was getting the dig underway. So yes, there was people who needed a lot of comfort because they felt working with an amateur might be damaging their reputation, but the research looked good. All of the research that we'd done supported doing the dig. And I think that's eventually what persuaded everyone to get on board in terms of the archaeological team and the university. But how exciting was it after all those years of preparation?

But what was the dig? Was it a digger? Did you do it by hand? How did you go about it? The city council, who were the landowner had confirmed their interest in the project in September 2010. But because of this recession that we were in, they couldn't fund it. So as the client with permission to dig, it was my responsibility to get the funding in. And luckily, there was an organisation in Leicester called Leicestershire Promotions. And I went to see them. And in July 2011, they funded the dig. We needed £35,000 for three trenches, and they fully funded it. So it was great. That was really easy. The dig was underway. And all I had to do now in 2011 was the last of my research, which was a ground penetrating radar

survey. I did that in August. And then the results came out because obviously what you're looking for with a ground penetrating radar survey is to try and see any sort of walls or any I think we can identify as a potential church underneath the ground. And the survey showed nothing, absolutely nothing. So that coupled with the bones in the river story, everyone was now backing away. Everyone was saying, okay, this is a wild goose chase. This is just ridiculous. And I then lost the funding and the dig was cancelled. And the first dig was due to go ahead in April 2011, so it was all cancelled. However, luckily, at Leicester City Council, who were my lead partner, I had the most amazing woman there, Sarah Levitt,

who was heading up this for the city council, who believed in the project. And she said, look, Philippa, I will give you the August bank holiday Monday dates for 2012 for a new dig, but you're going to have to get all of the funding in and no funding. And then that's it. We're cancelling you. We can't put any more time towards this. This is when I then had to do a whole new funding round. And it was tough. It was really hard because I tried everywhere. I would call the big businesses in Leicester and say, look, we're looking for Richard III in a car park and it's an archaeological dig. We're bringing in TV. Do you want to help us? No. And I even got the local business commercial organisation to try and help. They couldn't get

anyone on board. So I'd gone to the Richard III Society and their chairman, Phil Stone, put in £5,000 of his own money to get us underway. So that was great. So then I went back to Leicestershire Promotions and they would put in about £15,000. I then went to the University of Leicester, they would put in £10,000. But then Leicestershire Promotions, they pulled some of their money, they pulled £10,000. So I was less struggling where to find this money. And that's when we did an international appeal to members of the Richard III Society around the world, international appeal to members of the Richard III Society around the world, not thinking for a moment that they'd be able to fund the shortfall because I needed at least £15,000. And it was incredible, Dan. I remember sending the email out on the morning and literally

within minutes, I had emails pinging back saying, I can give you money and I can give you, you know, funding. And within two weeks, I had £17,500 from the Richard III Society members. And they became the principal funder for the search for Richard III. Without them, it would never have taken place. If you listen to Dan Snow's history, we're talking about Richard III in the car park. On Gone Medieval, History Hits Medieval podcast. We're here to spoil you with the big topics. Possibly one of the most important Anglo-Saxon discoveries

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We'll travel the medieval world in search of the stories you haven't heard and get under the skin of the ones you do know. Subscribe to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts. This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone, including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face

as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. So talk to me about the dig. How long did it take? Well, after we were fully funded, we literally had a few weeks to get ready for the dig. After we were fully funded, we literally had a few weeks to get ready for the dig. And we started the dig on the 25th of August, which strangely was the anniversary of when Richard III had been buried in the Greyfriars Church. And the first discovery that we made were some lower leg bones. And they were discovered in the northern end of the social services car park beside the letter R. And because it was the first discovery, obviously the archaeologists said,

look, you know, we don't know if it's a burial. We don't know what antiquity they are, what age they are. So we just cover them up and we move on. And we did. We had a two-week dig, and by the middle of the dig, we seemed to have found the church of the Greyfriars and that was in the northern end of the social services car park. Exactly where you thought it was going to be and then tell me what you found in the choir of the church right where you thought it might be. Well the funny thing was the archaeologists decided to open a trench three further east

from where these bones had been uncovered, quite rightly so, because the choir of the church is located in the east. So the further east they could go, more chance they thought of hitting the choir. And so they opened Trench 3, which was in a school playground and car park next door adjacent to the bones. And they found lots of graves and they found what was the choir of the church so there was the most enormous excitement about this trench because everyone thought this is probably where the grave of Richard would be so in terms of the bones that were found in 1, they felt it was too far west, and they were probably the bones of a friar in the nave of the church. But because I was the client of the dig, I instructed exhumation of those bones

because I thought I want to know who they are. And I had 800 pounds left from the international appeal, the Ricardian international appeal, and said to the archaeologist, you know, will that cover this exhumation? And he said, yes, absolutely. So we could then do that exhumation. And strangely, another happened chance with that because the archaeologists really wanted to exhume in Trench 3. But we had Simon Farnaby, the presenter coming along for the television documentary, and he needed something to film. He was only going to be there for three days.

So they said, okay, well, let's film these remains in Trench 1, because then we'll have something to film. So we did. And that's when the discovery was made. How do you mean, that's when it was made? Well, it was decided to exhume these remains while Simon Farnaby was there so he would have something interesting to talk about. So we started that process and this started on the 4th of September and it was quite difficult because Leicester soil is very heavy, it's very clay, full of rocks and stones. And so it started on the 4th of September, but it went into the 5th of September before the full exhumation could be done.

And so we uncovered him on the 5th of September. As you were exhuming that body, was there anything about it that made you think this could be a high-status burial, the burial of Richard Plantagenet? No, funnily enough, quite the opposite, because it became clear that he hadn't been buried in a coffin. And it looked like quite a hasty burial. So at first, it didn't seem that it was going to be Richard or anyone of particular note, because the osteologist who was exhuming the remains, Jo Appleby,

she'd been able to exhume part of the skull and part of the lower leg bones and there wasn't any battle wounds. But mind you, with armour, we didn't really expect any on legs, but there was none on the front of the skull. So it didn't seem at that point to be a contender what changed well what changed was I'd actually left the dig for a little while I'd gone for lunch as a few others had and so I didn't see all of this happening but Jo started uncovering more parts of the remains and she uncovered the skull and lifted the skull out and could see that there was battle injuries on the side and the back of the skull. In particular, a massive cleave wound at the back of the head, which did look like a very big battle wound. But also she started gently uncovering the spine and where the spine should be, she was going up straight, but she couldn't find it.

So then she had to go to the left or the right and discovered that the remains had a spinal abnormality. Came back from lunch and there was big smiles. I'm sure everyone welcomed you back to the car park. Not quite. They didn't tell me because Simon Farnaby and the crew were there. They said, we're going to bring you over and show you something, Philippa. So it was pretty tough, actually, because it was all done live on camera. And it was a big shock for me because when Jo Appleby, the osteologist, was uncovering the remains and showing me them, she showed me the battle, what looked to be battle injuries on the skull. And that was very convincing. But then when she showed me the spinal abnormality,

she said that, you know, these remains look like the remains of a hunchback because he was hunched in the grave. And I could see that he was hunched in the grave. So that totally, totally threw me because all of the research we'd done into Richard III, all the people who had met him during his lifetime and described Richard had not mentioned any sort of abnormality in his lifetime. When he died, there was a Warwickshire priest called John Rouse who had said he had one shoulder slightly higher than the other, but he'd left gaps to fill in later which shoulder was higher than the other. So long story short, when they got the remains out of the grave and got them back to the laboratory, they then realised that he wasn't hunchbacked. He didn't have kyphosis, which is a forward bend of the spine, but he had the sideways bend of the spine, which is scoliosis. So the reason that Joe had said, look, it looks like a hunchback is because the grave had been cut too short for him. So his head was lifted up in the grave and was on his chest. So it was really ironic of all the graves in all the world to be cut too short. It had to be Richard's. What was it like afterwards? The world went bonkers. It was just an amazing

time. And your documentary went out with the most watched history documentaries of all time in the UK. Was it exciting to be part of that? It felt miraculous, didn't it? What was it like? I think by the time we got to the announcement because the DNA discovery was one of the major steps in getting the Looking for Richard project underway because it'd been done by a historian and genealogist called Dr John Ashdown-Hill so the fact that his discovery of Richard's mitochondrial DNA was proved correct and accurate. That was really exciting because by identifying Richard, part of the project which we had agreed was that he would be reburied. And a lot of people were then saying, well, no, we don't want him reburied. We want him to be an exhibit in a museum. But

because we had agreed previously that he would be reburied, we were able as a team to be able to say no. So it was incredibly exciting and the world went mad. And I think what surprised me was the interest because he's a medieval king. He died over 500 years ago. You don't really expect that amount of interest. We knew there would be some, because obviously, you know, there's a lot of people who research medieval history and who are interested in this period, particularly the Wars of the Roses. But it just went absolutely global, absolutely international.

So it was quite odd in that sense. Why do you think there was so much interest? I think it was a number of factors. I think firstly, it was a car park and to find a king in a car park is an unusual story. But I think it's also who it was. And I think the fact that Shakespeare wrote one of his tragedy plays about it, people say it's a history play, but actually it's not. It's the tragedy of Richard III. And it was the printer of the first folio who changed it to being a history play.

But the fact that Shakespeare wrote about Richard, I think, then made people more interested to find out about the historical Richard. And the discovery of Richard has really helped that. It's been, I think, the most remarkable counterpoint to Shakespeare, because we now sort of have the historical Richard with us again. And there's now so much more conversations going on about the historical individual and research that's been kicked off since his discovery. It's really exciting times at the moment. Philippa, you've been an inspiration to so many people. People have been looking for Alfred Henry I. Everyone's looking for kings in various places and much else besides.

And your story is what keeps them going. What can you say to all those people listening who you've inspired? I mean, obviously there was skill, there was expertise, there was luck. What would you say to all those people who are out there hoping to emulate you? I don't think I'd include luck in that statement, Dan. I know we didn't have time to go through all of the background research that we did with the Looking for Richard project. But by the time we got to the social services car park, the research really did look good. So it sounds like one lesson is get your research, get your ducks lined up.

Yeah, definitely. You have to do that. You really have to do that. You've got to show that there's a really good case. And I think, for example, you mentioned Henry I there in Reading, and that's a good example in point. I remember doing talks in Reading and around sort of that area. And they asked me, they said, look, Philippa, we've got Henry I, and we'd like to look for our king to see if he's still there. And when you look at the research, it was always Henry was thought to be under a nursery school building. But actually, all of the research that I've looked at and that I've done, I think he's in the car park. He's in the car park of the prison there at Reading. And strangely, honestly, you really couldn't make it up. We did a ground penetrating radar survey. And right on the

area where I believe the king's grave is, they marked letter K for king. So there might be another king in a car park, but this time not under R, but under K. Philippa, well, watch this space. What's it like watching somebody play you on the big screen? It's that sort of weird fantasy we all have. That must be a very odd thing. It is odd. It's very odd. Sally Hawkins is the most incredible actress. And I don't for one minute think that anybody, you would think that somebody of her calibre and stature as an actress would think about playing an ordinary person like me. So that is odd. You don't think also that a film is going to make it because a lot of films, you know, the scripts are made

and a lot of them don't get made. So I kind of thought, well, it's a great idea, but it probably won't happen. And yet here we are. It's ready for release on the 7th of October. So it is quite odd, very odd. The film is The Lost King, folks. Go and watch it, everybody.

Philippa Langley, thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Thanks, Dan. I feel we have the history on our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone. This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say,

don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts.