Dan Snow's History Hit - Ridley Scott on Gucci, Gladiator and the Blitz

Episode Date: December 1, 2021

Please note that this episode contains the use of explicit language right from the very beginning.  Ridley Scott, a prolific director and producer, is responsible for some of the most critically acclaimed films of all time. While "Alien" (1979) and "Blade Runner" (1982), are regarded as significantly influential sci-fi films, "Gladiator" (2000) and "Black Hawk Down" (2001), to name just a few, highlight his dedication to epic historical dramas.Drawing from more recent history upon the release of his latest film, House of Gucci, Ridley joins Dan on this special episode of the podcast. Against the backdrop of the true-crime tale, the historic appeal of the Gucci business through the 60s, 70s and 80s and the personal history of the dynasty of the Gucci family, Ridley shares his approach to portraying Italy through opera. Ridley and Dan discuss the secrets of Ridley’s directorial process in relation to historical accuracy, the significance of his inspired relationship with history, what periods he is drawn to portraying and why World War II is particularly important to him. Ridley also shares with Dan what he is working on next.

Hi everyone, welcome to Downslow's History. On the podcast today, we've got Sir Ridley Scott. He's 83 years old. He's got more energy. He's busier. He's got more game than you and me put together. That's depressing, but true. He directed Alien, Blade Runner, Thurman and Louise, Gladiator, Black Hawk Down, The Martian. The guy is a card-carrying legend. He's been nominated for three Academy Awards. Just this year, he's released just the two films, The Last Jewel and House of Gucci. He was born in 1987 in South Shields in County Durham, and now he's one of the most famous and celebrated directors of our era. It's a huge, huge excitement to have Ridley Scott on the podcast.

If you have a certain age, and that age is around 42, 43, Gladiator was a big part of your formative years. That's all. That's just a fact. And as I was watching it for the second time in a day, back in 1999, I never thought that one day I'd get a chance to interview Ridley Scott and ask her a few questions questions exchange a bit of banter but now I have and it was worth the wait that 20 year old Dan would not be disappointed that 20 year old Dan would also be very grateful to you guys because without all of you listening to this I would not be in this position at all Ridley's team would have looked at it and discarded it yes they would have done instead he came on his trip podcast what can I say and that's all thanks to all of you folks for listening. Big thank you to everyone who

subscribed. Lots of you took advantage of the Black Friday offer and subscribed. So we've got record numbers of people subscribing at the moment. We've got big plans for next year. A huge thank you to everyone. If you want to subscribe, you can still do so. Go to historyhit.tv. You get the world's best history channel. You also get all these podcasts without the ads. And I met a guy, I met a guy who might be listening to this exact podcast. I met a guy a couple of days ago, and he said to me that he quite likes the ads because when the ads come on, he listens to the podcast in the bath. And when the ad comes on, he tops up the hot water. That's what he says. So I guess that's good just uh don't tell the advertisers all right but if you want it without the ads you get a history hit dot tv and you sign up there and

you can join us for the adventure in 2022 it's going to be fun in the meantime though everyone speaking adventures here is ridley scott let me ask you are you in a fucking car are you in a cab yes yes i am in a car it's a long story i'm in the i'm in a car in the car park of a an ocean survival training center because i'm going on an exciting history expedition and i've got to learn how to get into a life raft really yes yeah no i'm freezing my little backside off out here. But obviously, I've got to get some privacy because I'm talking to Ridley Scott. So I'm in the back of a car. Ridley, thank you very much for coming on the pod.

Thank you for asking me. Never thought you'd ask me. What can I say, man? Looks like you finally made the grade. Anyway, let's talk about this Gucci film. It's so rich. It's so spectacular. You went to Italy.

You went in style. It looks like you had, it felt like you had a great time. You know, that said, I enjoy it all. That's why I still keep doing it. And, you know, I feel very privileged to be able to still do it. And fortunately, I'm well enough

and fit enough to keep going. So to me, doing my job, you've got to embrace stress. If you don't like stress, don't do my job. Yeah, I can believe it. I mean, did it feel different making this movie? I mean, you went full Italy. You're Al Pacino. You've got Lady Gaga, two classic Italian-Americans.

The fashion, the operatic soundtrack, did it feel different? Well, you know, I usually get pretty good casts, and whenever you're going into any subject new, you have no idea, of course, where it's going to go. And on this one, because they're two very tricky characters to cast, because of the scale of the budget, cannot naturally be anybody other than probably, and I'll say this sounds terrible, but probably an American actor or certainly a top English actor to support the budget, right?

So I was already working with Adam Driver on The Last Duel. And from that, while we were making the last duel, I said, Adam, I have a very good piece of material that you should read because you may want to consider it. And he was surprised. I asked him because we hadn't finished the other one first. But I need to get there quick because these guys get snapped up. Then, of course, when I'd seen the Gaga or Stefania do The Star is Born,

when I knew I was already prepping, we were writing Gucci at that point, I was thinking that could be her. If she goes for it, that's her. So when we got the script, which I thought was honestly good enough to show, I sent it to her. That's it. So, you know, it's like putting your money on black.

You're going to go for that. I hope that they say yes. And that's, that's what happened. Once you get those two, then I can go to Al Pacino, say, can you,

will you play Aldo? And you just spread it around and ask him. That's all I do. But it was so, it just felt so Italian. I mean, the performativeative smoking those guys give like a master class in smoking but yeah it was it was everything about the film you just seem to embrace it well I mean not only that you're jumping into a period that we all probably adores the 80s and I mean I had I've always had a good time you know so and sometimes my good time has been too good so I've actually had a good time, you know? And sometimes my good times have been too good. So I've actually had to rein in often.

So I've had an interesting time. So I'm a student of the 60s, 70s and 80s. So I knew exactly what to do and where it was. So it was like digging out old memories and actually putting them on screen. So it was a lot of fun. Yeah, and then there was the, I loved the contemporary soundtrack alongside the opera. It was the clothes, it was the drinking, it was the cast. Hang on a minute. Also it was the sex scene, Ridley. I mean, that was an intense sex scene. There were lads on

stag nights. There were rugby players running out of the cinema, covering their eyes, shrieking at having to watch that sex scene. Oh, well, not only that, I think I planned the sex scene oh well i not only that i think um i planned the sex scene you mean the one in the trailer in her father's office yeah so the i said to her um this is gonna go this is where you two really come together and i think marisha gucci was probably at 21 a virgin and she was not a virgin she was you know, was a girl about town. I don't mean she was extreme way, but she was, you know, she'd been around, had a few boyfriends. And so in a way, I think the first initial attraction by Maurizio to her would be the fact she was so attractive and would be the fact that she was a kind of free spirit, which meant she was pretty free with her sex with him.

And I love the sex scene because it evolved and it went on for about, I think, a couple of minutes. But as I was watching it, I figured it was actually, it should be, it's opera. So I put on Puccini so this on the sexy it becomes almost comical and then it becomes satirical and i i think then you segue into church music was sex to marriage of course and then you get church music which is the preamble for george michael's thing so you gotta have faith so i thought that was the perfect union of music and picture. Yeah, I loved it. And as so often, you know, passionate sex to marriage to deep unhappiness and harbouring murderous thoughts.

There you go. That's the trajectory right there. But why this film, Ridley? How do you choose? How on earth do you, Ridley Scott, choose what you're going to make your next film about? Well, first of all, I thought it was a kind of interesting, classy drama because if you want to parallel it, it would be paralleling with a 15th century, 16th century family like the Borgias or the Medici. Same thing. There's self-destruct from the inside out.

They turned themselves inside out and couldn't agree about anything and got destructive and murderous. And you find it hard to believe that could happen in the 20th century. And by God, it did. She lost it because she could not realize the murder occurred six years after the divorce. after the divorce. So she carried the hatred of how he'd actually destroyed the family business. It was not her business,

and it wasn't hers to own, but she felt it was her life and her business and her daughter's life and business that he'd destroyed and they'd lost it. So it was a retribution. And it was extraordinary that she must have been obsessed, obsessive. I'm amazed.

I'm sure he did have her warned for harassment many, many times. You listen to Dan Snow's history here. Talking to Ridley Scott. More coming up. What do Tudor men like their women to look like? They should have broad shoulders, fleshy arms, fleshy legs and broad hips. What did 17th century Londoners think of coffee?

A syrup of soot and the essence of old shoes. And what did executioners wear? A lot of these guys, they were clothes horses because it's a big public spectacle. All the eyes are on you. I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb, and in my podcast, Not Just the Tudors, we talk about everything from monasteries to the Medici, sex to spying, wardrobes to witch trials. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. Subscribe from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. get into the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research from

the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings, Normans, Kings and Popes, who were rarely the best of friends, murder, rebellions and crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Really, I think people listening to this podcast will obviously be a big fan of your science fiction, big fan of all your movies, but the history in particular is something that people will be so familiar with, whether it's Robin Hood or Gladiator, the seminal film of my student days. We used to watch a lot of Gladiator when I was at university. How do you choose a period, a story?

How is your eye drawn to things? Well, it can be modern. I mean, Black Hawk was something interesting. Hannibal was something interesting. People forget there's a good film called Black Rain which was done in Japan Thelma Louise was interesting I think they've all got

subtext of scale and Thelma Louise was a subtext of scale and the rights righteousness of women and how you know it was very early me too statement right there's always a a central fuse in the middle of all my movies which are worth exploring and and so it doesn't

necessarily have to be about anything my people say what's your plan and i said my plan is there is no plan i tend to be like a child in a cot staring at the next toy thinking, oh that's nice, it's a nice glittering red ball, I'll go for the red ball. And so when you've got a film like Robin Hood or Black Hawk Down or Gladiator which kind of depicts events from history or history adjacent, what's your relationship like with history? What's your relationship like with historical advisors? Do you listen to them? Do you want to stay as close as possible to the story? Or do you jettison it? Go, look, it's too boring. I'm taking the story in a different direction.

No, I think first thing is you get the history right, you get the history credible. And so even on the Roman epic, I tend to be, again, like a kid, I tend to look at picture books rather than reading pages of text. I look at a picture because I'm very visually driven and visually orientated. I've offered good pieces of research information, which mostly is a lot from paintings with history, normally looking at painting. Particularly Bonaparte's history is covered brilliantly

with many, many, many great painters. And the paintings are so interesting in terms of how each person and character in them are captured. They're clearly accurate. So Napoleon is so easy to research because he's got a mass of information. The Roman Empire, also you've got a lot of information from history, from statues. I found all of Commodus' armor from a statue of a Roman emperor.

In fact, it was Comm common in this elaborate armor. From that, the gentry took that armor and created that armor. So you look at the real thing, and then from there, you then start to evolve the story. Because I think in terms of human behavior, people don't change that much. The big footnote on that is we simply aren't, we forget historical lessons we've learned

and we keep repeating bad behaviour. So we don't learn by history at all, which is shocking. The clothes change, the weapons change, we don't learn shit. So you mentioned Napoleon. I'm thinking immediately of David's painting of him crossing the Alps on his rearing up horse. Is that what you're doing? Are you the modern version of David's painting of him crossing the Alps on his rearing up horse. Is that what you're doing? Are you the modern version of David,

except your paintings move and talk and last for hours? Well, no. I mean, I think if I wasn't doing this, I'd be a painter. Frankly, I'd be a painter and architect. I'm a pretty good designer. And so, you know, it's all art. And I happened to evolve, you know, well into the moving art form. But from moving art form, all my research is done from books,

from every whatever source, it don't matter. And I can, fortunately, I can really draw because of a very prolonged period at art school. I was four years provincial art school and three years at the Royal College, seven years doctor's training. So I can really draw. So I plan the films.

I draw them on paper. As we do it right now, I've been doing a doodle. See that? Can you see that? No. I doodle. I do lots of telephone doodles while I'm talking and I draw all the time it's it's a it's a knee-jerk thing so when I'm reading

a script I'm constantly seeing it in my head and then I'll draw it afterwards from that that will become an instruction sheet in picture form so a storyboard can be almost two inches thick for a film actually just to come back to gucci film for a second it must be different is it different when there's people still alive today in your films that the history that you're portraying is so recent there'll be people alive who are depicted in that film who might watch it that that is always a degree of respect if you can to bear in mind that i've always thought that every time they do the kennedy assassination i thought it was a kind of pretty insensitive because he was such a political savior and a political hope and a political hero but when the gucci when you murder your husband

and you go to prison for tax evasion i'm sorry you are public domain yeah yeah well your public domain at that point tell me what's next what's the big story that you have yet to tell well i think it's been done many many times i was a big cowboy fan because i learned to ride early on and so i was obsessed with wanting to be a cowboy. And I've never got to that. And I love to do it. And the film I'm obsessed by, with all its inaccuracies, is based on a very good book by Alan LeMay called The Searchers. And, of course, it's a big film in American culture and history

with John Wayne. And what's interesting about it is it touches, the entire story is about the apartheid, the effect that the girl is taken by the American Indians, therefore he's going to go after the girl. His intention is to then kill the girl because she's been with an Indian. So I think that carries a marvelous edge to the cultural idea of the West. Because if you do the West, if you do a cowboy,

to me it should always be about man against the wilderness. I think when the West was fought and won, people were fighting the wilderness as well as the people who didn't like us there. And the people who didn't like us there were dead, right, because we were going to fuck them up. And the people who didn't like us, they were dead, right? Because we're going to fuck them up.

So you've got a very powerful choice as to what that story will be. There's a character I love who is a great Indian scout who's called Kit Carson. And Carson in National Park, there's a Kit Carson National Park, which is thousands of acres of marvelous pine forest. And he was a guy who, you know, began as a scout and an Indian fighter that eventually fought to save the Indian culture and tried to make, as it were, their adjustment to where they were going to get put in the best possible way. So I like that idea of the thing that we did to the American Indian was just as bad as you can possibly imagine. And I want to get that as the subject of the movie. What about the Second World War? Your dad was in the Royal Engineers, I think. You have Merchant Navy connections. I've got Merchant Navy connections as well. I guess we're all still world war your dad was in the royal engineers i think you have merchant navy connections i've

i've got merchant navy connections as well we all i guess we all we're all still living in the shadow of that war what's that war mean to you and you are you interested in working with the second world war what i'm doing funny if yeah we're doing something right now which is about the battle of britain i mean a lot of stuff like that is done, and I think it should never be forgotten. And therefore, if it's repeated, God bless you, because we should never, ever forget. I'm a war baby. So I sat and got bombed every night in the Blitz because we were in London.

And in London, my mom would take us, and we'd sit under the stairs because we got a direct hit and make cocoa and sing, oh, McDonald had a farm. That was it. And it was like, in the morning, there'd be two houses missing on the street. And, you know, Mrs. Roberts got hit, and Mrs. Smith got hit. And so then I went, I was standing on a troop ship

in Germany in 1947 with a little gas mask, a label in case I got lost. I was being sent to the hook of Holland to be met by my father's drive. My dad was a high up in the army, and I was sent over there with my elder brother, and we went to Germany. I lived in Germany during 1947, 52. 47, that's 18 months after the war after war and then I was right there in 52 when we returned to England

and I think by being there and moving around in the schools, I was so backward academically but those are the days where parents would go you'll be fine, you'll catch up and of course there's no way you're going to catch up so I was academically

really backward when I came't return to England. Don't beat yourself up about it, man. You can still do something with your life. Yeah. No, I can draw. The one thing I could do was really draw. That's my saviour. Are you getting better as a director as you get older?

Now you've got all this experience under your belt. Yeah, you do. Yeah, well, not so much your belt. Yeah, you do. Well, not so much necessarily better. I think you do. I think you refine process. You make decisions faster. I mean, I did Gucci in 42 days and were $5 million under budget. Under.

I'm lightning Lopez. That's amazing. I mean, because that looks like a long film to make. It's a huge variety of locations and textures and places and people. Yeah, there's a lot of naval studying in this business. And I think half of it comes because they don't know what they're doing. You know exactly what you're doing, Ridley. Thanks so much for coming on.

Everyone go and check out Gucci. It's a great film. Great. Keep doing it. Okay. Thanks, man. And you. And you. Thank you. All right. Bye. Bye-bye. Gucci it's a great film God bless you keep doing it okay thanks man and you and you

thank you alright bye bye bye bye I feel we have the history on our shoulders all this tradition of ours

our school history our songs this part of the history of our country all were gone and finished thanks folks for listening to this episode

of Dance Notes History as I say all the time I love doing these podcasts they are the best thing All work out and finish. Thanks, folks, for listening to this episode of Dan Snow's History. As I say all the time, I love doing these podcasts. They are the best thing I do professionally. I feel very lucky to have you listening to them. If you fancied giving them a rating review, obviously the best rating review possible would be ideal. It makes a big difference to us. I know it's a pain, but we'd really, really be grateful.

And if you want to listen to the other podcasts in our ever-increasing stable, don't forget we've got Susanna Lipscomb with Not Just the Tudors. That's flying high in the charts. We've got our medieval podcast, Gone Medieval, with the brilliant Matt Lewis and Kat Jarman. We've got The Ancients with our very own Tristan Hughes.

And we've got Warfare as well, dealing with all things military. Please go and check those out wherever you get your pods.