Dan Snow's History Hit - Rival Queens: Elizabeth I and Catherine de' Medici

Episode Date: July 22, 2021

The relationship between Elizabeth I and Catherine de' Medici - the two most powerful Queens of their time - is one of the most intriguing and captivating stories of the 16th century. In this edition of our sibling podcast Not Just the Tudors, Professor Suzannah Lipscomb talks to Dr. Estelle Paranque about her new book Blood, Fire and Gold, which explores how these two formidable women wielded and negotiated power, and were united only in their dislike of Mary, Queen of Scots.

This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History. It's that time of the week when we check out what our sibling podcasts are doing.

This week, it's not just the Tudors. Professor Susanna Lipkin's smash hit pod, in which she talks about the Renaissance, 16th century, early modern, late medieval. I don't know what period it is. Anyway, it's not just the Tudors, but there's a fair bit of Tudors in it, as there is today. This episode is about rival queens. It's done really well on Susie's feed, so I thought I'd bring it over to this one, give it a wider airing. Rival queens, Elizabeth I and Catherine de' Medici. This is Elizabeth in her European context, which I think is really interesting, and also addresses the fact that in this period in the

16th century, there were some very, very powerful women in positions of authority in Western Europe. And that itself is pretty interesting. The guest is Dr. Estelle Perenc, who has been on this podcast before. She's an absolute legend. She's a nuclear reactor of energy in a good way she's absolutely brilliant so it's great to have her on the pod again if you wish to listen to previous episodes of this podcast if you wish to listen to them without the ads I can understand that you don't listen to the ads I get it you can do so by subscribing to History Hit we've got a tv channel there with hundreds of hours of documentaries got big documentary on the end of the Anglo-Irish War, Irish War of Independence.

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You get 30 days free if you sign up right now. But in the meantime, everyone, enjoy this episode of Not Just the Tudors with Susanna Lipscomb and Estelle Parank. Estelle, I imagine listeners are familiar with Elizabeth I, but could you introduce Catherine de' Medici for us, please? Yes, of course. She was a French queen, but she was also from Italy. She was half Italian, half French. From her mother, she was French. And from her father, she was Italian. And she's obviously from the famous family, the Medici. And she was from Florence. And she was not meant to be queen. I think that's why it's so extraordinary about her.

And she married Henry II, he was Henry Duke of Orléans in 1533, a great year with the birth of Elizabeth and the marriage of Catherine de' Medici. And then she became Dauphine of France and then she became Queen Concert of France. And then even after that, her husband died and she became a sort of Queen Regent and then she became the Queen Mother of France. So she's a very important 16th century French figure. She has an extreme dark legend around her brain

and her life is full of drama and scandal, but also you learn so much from her. And what were her dates? When was she born and when did she die? So she was born 13th April 1519 and she died on the 5th January 1589. So she was very young when she married. Yes, she was. She was 14 years old. And in a way she was really lucky because her husband was the same age. So it was two teenagers getting married to one another.

And she fell in love with him. So she wasn't that lucky because although he becomes Henri II, Henry II, and she is his queen consort from 1547, because Francis I died in the same year as Henry VIII. And she's queen consort then to 1559. And the dates so align with the dates of the Tudors. It's interesting, just after Elizabeth becomes queen. And then he is the one who died in a jousting accident, as a result of a jousting accident, when Splinters enters his helmet. Yes, absolutely awful. And I don't know if it's really true, but one can say

that she always had like strong feelings, almost intuitions, I think we can say it this way. And the day before he was going to participate in this jousting tournament, she had a nightmare that something very bad was going to happen. And he was fighting this very important Lord, Gabriel de Montmorency. And at first he just lost and he just like fell off his horse, but nothing happened. It was just his pride and his ego that was badly hurt, but himself was fine physically. And Catherine ran to him and said, please stop now, just stop stop but he wanted to really impress his mistress his royal favorite the love of his life Diane de Poitiers and so he was like no he ignored his wife and I said I want to try again and he wanted to win and she begged him please don't do it don't do it I really have now

a very strong bad feeling and he completely ignored her. Diane de Poitiers said nothing and in a way we can see that she encouraged him. She lied that the fact he wanted to impress her and being the center of attention let's face it she loved it. So he tried again and this is where he got badly injured and Catherine again was the one like screaming that they needed the best surgeon of Paris, who was Ambroise Paré. So she said, we need Ambroise Paré. So he arrived. And the story around the death of Henry II is quite amazing because something I didn't know, they took prisoners from La Bastille and he wanted to reproduce the wound in the eye to see if he could save him. So he tried. And so each time he was putting a splinter in someone's eye

and trying to remove it and see if he could save the king. So he was practicing on prisoners and they all died. But at first he didn't get the splinter in the right way. So he was like, okay, this one, we need to let him go. You know, he's going to die, but who cares? Give me a second one. And Catherine was the one who accepted like she agreed she was like yeah give him like a dozen of prisoners if it needs be at that time she just wanted to save the king and then at the last one he managed to get the splinter in exact same angle and he realized

there's no way I can save him basically by, by trying to save this prisoner, he killed him. And Catherine, she screams out of despair. He died of agony like 10 days later. That's a pretty grim story, but very evocative. And it gives us a sense of Catherine. I mean, you're painting a picture of a woman who's utterly in love, despite the fact her husband appears to be in love with someone else, and who is ruthless. Would that be fair? That's completely fair. Actually, you know, there's so much discussed about Catherine. Whatever we think about her, she's a Medici. So the fact that she's ruthless, you know, like it should not come as a surprise. But at the same time, she's extremely smart, extremely intelligent. She knew how to work her way through the games of court. What I mean by that is she had to buy her time.

She had to find a way to make it work for her. And she had to swallow her pride. And she was humiliated for years and she took it. And she was like, it's fine. It doesn't matter. Diane de Poitiers was invited on the Privy Council with Henry II. Catherine de Medici never had that honour. But then there's a shift as well.

At some point around 1556, 1557, she became closer to Henry II because what happened, I think, is that Henry II realised that his wife, despite the years of humiliation, remained completely devoted to the dynasty. And actually, he made a regent in 1557, 1558. So there's the battle where the English lost Calais. And they lost Calais because of what Catherine managed to get more money in Paris to send it. But she gave an amazing speech. She talks with her heart. And it's a beautiful speech. And she manages to get the money for her husband, the finances that he needs. They lost the war, obviously, but they got back

Calais. And we know that then it's going to be like a massive rivalry between Elizabeth and Catherine for years to come. So as Elizabeth I comes to the throne in 1558, we have in Catherine a woman who has already had years of experience at court and is 14 years older than Elizabeth and has born sons, which of course Elizabeth won't go on to do. But at this stage, could we say that Elizabeth and Catherine have much in common? Let's think about their upbringings. Yeah, they do. Another thing that really struck me when I was writing my book is the way they were so similar, because you would think they're so different. And as you said, you know, one completely embraced motherhood, but as a way of gaining power. Catherine viewed power for queens through motherhood, like many

queens. And Elizabeth had a total different view on that so i think that's a big difference between them but in terms of similarities you have to remember that both of them were not meant to be queens for both of them it's just fate that made them so powerful and even catherine the death of her husband should have marked the end of her political influence it was not the case. She managed to get it through. So again, fate struck many times for her. And same for Elizabeth. There was obviously Edward who was supposed to reign and he was young. There was no reason to think that he would not have a long reign. Then there was Mary I. She could have had some children with Elizabeth II. So

there's this big fact that they were not born to be queens one was an orphan at three weeks old the other was a bastard at three years old so again they knew and they were used as pawns they were completely also disregarded like ignored and what i love about those two women is the fact that when you don't have power, when you are caught and you have many enemies, you see two women who are completely humble, obedient. They're almost discreet in those years. The mask for both of them completely fell off when they both become queens.

It's almost like it was a joke. Catherine has her revenge on the mistress. As soon as Henry II died, she's like, get out of all the royal properties. I'm taking back Chenonceau, which was one of the best French castles of all times. She takes everything back and she makes sure that she has no power left. And Elizabeth did the same in many ways, like try to appoint people who are more loyal to her,

disregard people who have been loyal to Mary. And little by little, they show that this humility obedience was an act those two women are nothing like a humble discreet obedient woman and we see that in the way they're going to rule at the same time yes because i suppose effectively when might we consider the reign of Catherine? I mentioned she's Queen Consort 1547 to 1559. But that is not the zenith of her power, is it? When would we say that she really has power? When Francis II is going to die in December 1560 is when she manages to become Gouverneur de France, so Governor of France. She doesn't have the title of regent for Charles IX,

who was only nine years old. I mean, she doesn't have the name, but she is the one ruling. And even when he becomes of age, she's still very much in power. The things are going to change drastically around the death of Charles. So even slightly before his death, he's starting to push her back. He's starting to say, I'm the king. Mama, let me do it. You know, I can handle it. And with Henry III, it's when Henry III is like, I'm not a boy. And he's also her favourite son. Okay, so in case anyone's getting confused here with all the names, we've got Catherine de' Medici has several sons. The first to become king is Francis II,

who dies after a very short time as king. Yeah, 18 months. Then we have Charles IX, who rules from 1560 to 1574, who is her second son. And then we have Henry III, who is her third son. And she does have a fourth son as well. The Duke of Anjou, who is going to be like a big story with Elizabeth. He's going to be the one who's going to almost maybe get a match with Elizabeth I.

So we have this period where Catherine is the mother of successive French kings. She's queen consort, then she's just a political advisor under Francis II's reign because he's married to Mary Stuart. And it's obviously her family who's going to take over the guises are very very powerful during his reign she's still a political advisor so she's in the privy council and she still advised her son but he didn't listen to her as much as she would have liked let's put it that way but then from 1560 I think like her power is really really grew until 1574 and then from 1574 she's still a political advisor but she's more than that because she

forced everyone to call her the queen mother of France so she created her own title for herself basically you have the king of France the most important like person usually like the ruler of France the queen mother was second and the ruler of France. The queen mother was second and the queen consort was third. But I would say that her influence is going to diminish under Henry III's reign. And it's completely diminished around 1586, 1587, where Henry III and herself have completely different ideas of how to deal with the political climate. He just stops listening to her, basically. And she tries to still have influence, but to be fair,

her influence is completely undermined by the fact that he doesn't listen to her anymore. So I would say that 1560, 1574, so basically the reign of Charles IX is when she's the most powerful in France. So given that you're writing or have written a book about Elizabeth I and Catherine de' Medici, clearly you think that the nature of the relationship between them matters. Why does it matter so much? It matters so much because I

think that when we look at Elizabeth I, usually, we look at it only through English sources. And we only look at her as well with her massive rivalry with Mary, Queen of Scots. And I'm not saying that, you know, Mary, Queen of Scots was not a rival to Elizabeth. I'm saying that actually the greatest rival she had was Catherine de' Medici. Because Catherine de' Medici, she was not imprisoned for 18 years she had true political power she had massive influence over her sons so I'm saying that their relationships you have to imagine that actually especially from 1560 to 1574 you have almost two queens ruling in a male dominated world And what's interesting is the interaction they had with one another

and also with Philip II, who was a threat. He was the most powerful ruler in Europe at that time. And he was a threat to both of them. And they both tried as well to make sure that he was a friend and a lie and everything. And then everything is going to change massively for Elizabeth and Catherine is going to really try to remain in his good book so what I'm saying is also like those two women exchanged dozens and dozens of letters they used the ambassadors to discuss with one another and I think we're missing so much from Anglo-French

relations when we don't look at those two women. And focusing only on Mary Stuart and Elizabeth, we miss the role of Catherine de Medici in that relationship as well. And we tend to forget that Catherine de Medici was more powerful than Mary Stuart at that time. I think you're right. I think the relationship between the two has been forgotten. So how did they see their relationship? They're not quite a generation apart. How did they characterize it? So basically, first of all, when Catherine de Medici became powerful, so it's in 1560, so it's almost 1561. And Elizabeth has already been queen for two years. But she sees Elizabeth as a young queen, mostly inexperienced,

queen for two years but she sees Elizabeth as a young queen mostly inexperienced someone who needed to marry someone in Catherine's mind there was no way that as a woman you could remain single without child in 16th century it is not how she saw power but at first they started really badly their relationship and I think it's because of the loss of Calais. Elizabeth is always going to try to get Calais back. And there's this massive animosity that is going to come from that. And Catherine, she's going to win her first battle, in a way, her first fight with Elizabeth. Because Elizabeth is going to use the first religious civil war in France to send money, to send support to the Huguenots, the French Protestants, to undermine the French. And she's going to get New Heaven, Le Havre. The English and the Huguenots are going to

get this town. And Elizabeth is going to use this town to say to Catherine, because Charles is too young, give me back Calais and I'll give you back New Heaven. And Catherine is, you can almost imagine her smiling like thinking you young queen you really think that I haven't been close to power for so long you're like completely underestimating me because what she's gonna do Catherine is gonna go talk to the leader of the Huguenot or the prince of Condé isn't it more important to be French than being Protestants or Catholics so something that Elizabeth is gonna try to say in her own country for so long and say, I will pardon you, roll pardon, but you get the English out of this country. And Condé is going to turn his back

on Elizabeth, who could not believe it, you know, after all the support she gave him. And she's going to continue to give support to the Huguenots later on but it's a massive betrayal for her so once Catherine got New Heaven back then she's like so what you were saying you wanted Kelly come and get Kelly you know if you want it so bad so the relationship started like that and then they realized that they couldn't keep on that level and even people think that she wanted war and she was like a snake she wasn't she was extremely smart extremely shrewd politically and diplomatically she used tactics and she realized okay you're single i have three sons let's talk now about marriage negotiations and that's when in 1564 we have a change in their relationship where Catherine is basically going to woo and

pursue Elizabeth until 1582-1583. She's never going to stop until she doesn't have any sons to give which is a bit pathetic sometimes when you think about it because she tried so hard and Elizabeth is gonna play with that. She's gonna play with the fact that Catherine wants her so bad to make sure pathetic sometimes when you think about it because she tried so hard and Elizabeth is going to play with that. She's going to play with the fact that Catherine wants her so bad to make sure that the French are never her threat to England, to make sure that she can treat Mary Stuart the way she wanted to treat her because the French would never try to completely destroy their relationship with Elizabeth for the sake of Mary, Queen of Scots. They were not going to do that, as long as they thought that she wanted to get married with one of them. So she played that card a lot. But why was Catherine so desperate to marry one of her sons to the English

Queen? Because she wanted to have another throne. Charles IX is King of France. So in 1564, Elizabeth dismissed it in one audience. She was like, he's too young. I don't want him. Let's not even talk about it. In 1568-69, Catherine tried again with her ambassadors. And she said, he's grown up. He's now like more of a man. Would you accept him? And she said, no, I'm still not interested. So Catherine gave up, married him to someone else, Elizabeth of Austria, the second daughter of the Holy Roman Emperor. And she's happy with it. But then she's like, I have another son, Henry III, and you might like him.

And actually Elizabeth is like, ooh, I'm pretty sure she saw the painting. And she's like, OK, so we have someone more dashing. And she thought about it. And then it's Henry who refused. Henry's like, no, I'm not going to marry a public whore. And he said that at court. And Catherine was like, oh my god, he didn't mean that. She didn't want the English ambassador to report that. It was a mess. And basically, Henry III just refused flat out marrying Elizabeth. And what happened is that his mother

managed to get him elected King of Poland in 1571-72. So what she wanted is to have all her sons on thrones. And then she has the last one, Francis, Duke of Anjou. And she's like, okay, him then. And then it's when Elizabeth really played so well. She really managed to make them believe many, many times that she would do it. And you have to understand that it's quite amazing to make a man believe that he's going to get married to you for almost 10 years. And then at the end, you're like, no, not going to happen. It is a story on its own, but it's not just a story about this man and Elizabeth. It's a story about Catherine and Elizabeth, because there's Catherine who doesn't want to give up so even in 1581 when Elizabeth is never going to happen we have letters where

Catherine still tried in 1582 1583 and then obviously he died in 1584 and then we have what I call like almost a third phase of their relationships where Catherine is done with Elizabeth. She's tried so hard to be good to her, nice to her. And at that point, they become true rivals. And when Elizabeth ordered the execution of Mary, Queen of Scots, Catherine is completely disgusted with Elizabeth and she never forgave her. And she thought she was the most awful queen ever. They stopped communications even between them. So I guess we can imagine that Catherine, as you said, would not have imagined that Elizabeth would go unmarried, partly because she herself had had those 11 years of not having an heir

and knew the humiliation she faced as a childless woman in the 16th century in a position of power. She knew that having an heir was crucial. Yes, exactly. And actually, even in her letters, she was like, I'm sure you want to have a son. It's like having a son is like the only thing you should want. And Elizabeth never really replies to that, never really engages with this and Catherine insisted and she said I want to be the grandmother of your son I want to be your mother which then Elizabeth kind of like pushed back a bit because she liked playing the game of like one day she would say yes I'm happy to be your daughter and sometimes she was like let's put some distance

you're my cousin and sister you know like the normal formal things that you would say between kings and queens and so you're right but for Catherine it was also a question of she couldn't imagine a woman not wanting to have children but she also I think was extremely envious that Elizabeth was queen regnant and almost had this choice the power that came with being queen regnant meant that she had the choice of doing what she wanted, something that Catherine couldn't because she was not royal blood. So the only way for her to defend her status and her place at court was through her sons. But Elizabeth didn't need that. And I think there's almost jealousy and envy because what is really power if it's not choice? You're listening to Dan Snow's History.

We've got the team from Not Just the Tudors on. They're talking about Elizabeth I and Catherine de' Medici more after this. This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes.

Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. What type of queens would you say they are? How would you characterise them individually? I think they're extremely similar. In a way, they were female kings. They were the true equals to kings, both of them. Catherine is extremely, extremely intelligent, as intelligent as Elizabeth, I believe. And they both were like the equals to Philip II. I think in a way, we try always to look at them differently because of the difference between being a mother and being a virgin. We tend to forget that these two women, either through motherhood or remaining single as a choice,

they really, really challenged the male-dominated world they were living in. And you can see it as well as their relations with their counsellors. So Catherine had the same counsellors as her sons, right? So all privy counsellors were also hers. And she had private... When I say private, I'm not saying anything weird, just personal relationships with them, where she was also giving orders and seeking advice,

which Elizabeth was doing with her own privy council. So I think there were queens who were true survivors. They survived a lot. They went through humiliation, both of them. And they were true warriors. At the end of the day, they both fought for their countries. And I think Catherine is often remembered as someone who, again, dark legend with what happened you know in front with the religious civil wars but actually she truly truly cared about France and you can see in her letters and people who say well it's not true she just wanted to kill Protestants when you look at her letters it's not true it's just the complexity of what was happening and obviously the Catholic

League with the Gizis and all of this that created so much tension in our country that forced us sometimes to be also ruthless. But they could both be good queens and both could be completely ruthless when they made decisions that were not great, basically. One thing Catherine is often charged with, one of the ways that she's vilified, is this idea that it is her responsibility

that thousands of Protestants died in the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. Can you tell us about that massacre and how it started? So the massacre happened after the wedding of Henri de Navarre, who was King of Navarre, and Marguerite de Valois, who was Catherine de Medici's daughter. So everyone was invited, all Huguenot leaders, most of the Huguenots, the Protestants, were invited to the capital for the wedding. And obviously, a wedding at that time, it's going to last a few days. It's not just one day and then you go back to where you're from. You know, you stay there for a few days. There's lots of alcohol, lots of festivities, celebrations, as you can imagine. And obviously all the Catholics, Paris is this very strong Catholic city.

And you have the Guises and you have their supporters who are also there. And what happened was there's a massive rivalry between the Guises and the Huguenot leaders. Most notably at that time was Gaspard de Coligny. And they blamed him for the death of their father in 1562, the Duke of Guise. So the sons are going to set up a revenge and they're going to attack him in the streets in Paris in the evening. revenge and they're going to attack him in the streets in Paris in the evening and Collini is going to defend himself and he's going to manage to flee and arrive at the royal palace to get some help. He's badly injured and from that point the Guises are going to keep attacking other Protestants but not just the Guises, it just becomes in every taverns, in every street, all the tensions that

you can imagine between Protestants and Catholics, these people have been at war for 10 years. And there's never been real peace in their minds. So can you imagine like with all these tensions, and with mobs as well, you grab one Protestant and you kill him and you beat him up. But I also want to say so what happened in Paris, absolutely awful. I've been like 1000s and 1000 Protestants and Huguenots were killed during that night. But I would like people to understand because often when I talk to people about what happened, everyone is so horrified and they're right to be. But I would like to put that back in the context of 16th century France

where actually Catholic towns were also destroyed and killed by Protestants. And there was lots of little massacres all over France. Death was so much part of their daily lives of 16th century people. And I'm not justifying it. I'm just saying that the massacre in Paris was extremely shocking. But at the end of the day, it was not something that had never happened before. And that was never going to happen again. I mean, I think the matter of religion, we have to address that. Catherine

de' Medici, in January 1562, becomes the first ruler of a Western European kingdom to grant legal recognition to two forms of Christianity at once, that she grants a legal toleration to Protestants, which then is kind of restricted a year later. And we go through this cycle of changes. But it's a complex one, as you say, because if we fast forward to 1572, we have this huge St. Bartholomew's Day massacre of 10,000 Protestants killed in Paris. Maybe we should start by thinking about what do you think Catherine's relationship was with Protestantism as a Catholic? And how did she square that relationship with her relationship with the Protestant Queen? That's a good question. I think for any monarch, so for Elizabeth I is the same, you have to differentiate. And I know a lot of Christians are not going to like that.

But unfortunately, you can't forget that these people were human beings. And I'm saying that because I think we tend to forget that. And I know that as historians, particularly, don't really like to talk about feelings, emotions and stuff. But I do believe that they played a huge role in how people reacted to power or how people were going to use power. So I think here with Catherine, we have to look at two different levels. And I'm going to answer your question on two different levels. The first one is her personal level from the letters I've read. And I'm sure like there may be more letters to discover that might tell me I'm wrong. And then I'm happy to look at them and you know, and change my mind. But so far from the letters I read on a personal level, I think Catherine, as think Catherine,

as any Catholic, she was not welcoming Protestantism and Protestant ideas. But she also didn't want to always fight against those ideas. So she always wanted to find a compromise. And I think that if it hadn't been for basically a question of a struggle to power and for politics, I think it would have been very much easy for her a struggle to power and for politics I think it would have been very much easy for her to say yes okay fine we can do edicts of tolerance and grant the freedom of conscience because at the end of the day you look at Catherine and she wants to have peace in front it's not good for a country to not be stable and she knows that it's not good for a dynasty it's not the first level which is linked to the second level as well

then i'm very close to other academic historians who are looking more at politics because of course everything is influenced by politics and again by the games of power right because you have Catherine who is going to be challenged by different factions but But the truth is, when you look at the Huguenots, they never challenged the royal authority like the Catholic League did or like the Catholic side with the Guises did. They never wanted to replace the Valois dynasty. And so it's why I think it means that she has no problem trying to get one of her sons married to Elizabeth because if it's good for politics if it's good for the alliance for the dynasty it doesn't matter and also I do believe that personally she didn't have something against

Protestants and I'm going to tell you why because you talked about the Saint Bartholomew's Day massacre in 1572 awful night a dark legend came from it. Everyone said that Charles IX and Catherine de' Medici are responsible for it. Now I'm gonna ask people something because I think that we need to all reflect on this. If you're Catherine de' Medici, what do you gain by having a massacre at the wedding of your daughter? A wedding that you have bloody worked hard, so hard, so, so hard for in the last two years. A wedding where you had like to have meetings with someone you really disliked, Jeanne d'Albray, the Queen of Navarre. You managed to get a treaty, you managed to get a peace alliance, you managed to get a wedding to celebrate this and then you're gonna plot for all these Protestants to die. But what do you gain?

All the Protestants are not in Paris. There are lots of other Protestant strongholds in France. You don't want another war and it's gonna be the start of a new religious civil war. And also we have to look at what Catherine did during that night what did she do what was her reaction she opened her house to Protestants she opened her house to Sir Francis Walsingham and his secretaries now I'm not saying it's black or white here did she know that the Ghezis wanted revenge on Collini yes. How could she not have known? Obviously, she knew the hatred between them. But did you think it was going to be one fight between two families, between two men, one murder, maybe? And even then, she tried to save Coligny with Charles. They asked again for

the best surgeon in Paris, who was still on Bois Paré, to save him. So did she know that something might have happened? Yes. Did she think 100% it's going to happen during that night? No. Did she think it would create tensions? Yes. But I don't think she imagined for a minute that everyone was going to lose control because what happened is basically that everyone lost control.

And so I don't understand how... Well, I mean, I do understand because then it's like 18th and 19th century historians, writers, where there's extreme xenophobia against Italians. And having Catherine de' Medici as an Italian, she took the blame for everything. But it's not based on contemporary 16th century sources. And so that's what we need to reassess, really. contemporary 16th century sources. And so that's what we need to reassess, really. This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone, including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you.

Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. And in fact, have already done so. In Nîmes, there had been a massacre in 1567, which is known as the Michelade, which is a massacre of Catholics by Protestants. And Alan Torshin has argued that given the relative population of Nîmes and Paris, the Michelade is proportionately as bloody or nearly as bloody as the events of 1572. And so we shouldn't think also that it's only the Catholics who are being bloodthirsty at this time. We shouldn't think also that it's only the Catholics who are being bloodthirsty at this time. Exactly. It has always happened. Then the question is, could Catherine and Charles had stopped it or prevented it? I don't think they could have, because then it would have meant not having the wedding. And Catherine really wanted peace with Navarre.

We know that a dynastic alliance is something that creates or should create peace. So I think that's why it's very interesting to stop thinking about this massacre as how Catherine was awful because a lot of people think in 18th and 19th century world history saying that Catherine was behind it with Charles and honestly I think it just born from pure xenophobia against Italian people and Catherine was half Italian so that was why. Now one thing that plays into their relationship with each other and their relationship with religion was their relationship with the third party, Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots, because she's Catherine de' Medici's daughter-in-law

because Mary had been married to Francis II and she's Elizabeth I's cousin. So how do they both feel about Mary? So what's very interesting and not very surprising from my point of view is both of them really disliked Mary Stuart from the very beginning. So Elizabeth has obviously disliked Mary Stuart because Mary Stuart was using the Court of Arms and the title of Queen of England quite early on. As soon as Mary I died, she had a very hard time to make Francis II stop using the Court of Arms of England. He agreed,

but then he died. And then Mary basically continued using the Court of Arms and the title of Queen of England. So that really annoyed Elizabeth massively. For Catherine, the relationship is a bit more complex. We have to understand that Catherine met Mary when she was about six years old, the time when she was sent to the French court. And Mary Stuart was raised with Catherine's children. And until then, you can think, oh, okay, so that's quite nice. But very soon, Mary, and we don't have literally no answer of why she decided to do so Henry II really liked Mary Stuart Queen of Scots so when she grew up he thought she was wonderful and you know she was extremely pretty extremely charming to some extent very intelligent as well but Mary

really liked Diane de Poitiers so Diane de Poitiers being Catherine's greatest rival. When I say really liked, I mean really, really liked her. And Diane de Poitiers really liked Mary Stewart. So Mary Stewart would be invited for tea and spending time with Diane de Poitiers. And Diane de Poitiers criticized a lot Catherine to Mary. And Mary, as a teenager, you know, as you can imagine when you're a teenager, Mary really was impressed with Diane and Diane was beautiful. And she repeated stuff that Diane de Poitiers said, but she said she thought about that too. So she basically that Catherine was just the

daughter of a shoemaker from Florence and that she was not a proper queen and everything. So Catherine heard and realised that Mary didn't think much of Catherine de' Medici. At that time, again, Catherine did nothing, absolutely nothing, because she's always smart. She doesn't let her emotions take advantage of her and she doesn't react on the spot like many people do. And also she didn't want to compromise the marriage between Mary and Francis. But when Mary and Francis became king and queen, she also realized that Mary was really trying to overshadow Catherine. Catherine didn't like that either.

Mary was really influential and she was calling the shots with Francis II. Francis II was in love with her, completely in love with her and would do anything for Mary. But when he died died that was when as always Catherine gets her revenge in 1561 in March so you just have to imagine that she had some time to grieve the death of her husband and Mary asked to remain in France to be made queen dowager and she had some lands because of her Gis family and to remain there and Catherine refused and said you should go back to Scotland you're queen of Scotland and Mary said I don't really want to go back there. Mary left for

Scotland but Catherine never forgave that kind of behavior she never did. She also thought that Mary made some bad decisions she tried not to get involved too much. And when she became a prisoner in England, she tried to help her. You know, at that point, it's not because she liked her. It's about pride. You know, you're French and she's half French and she was Queen of France. And you don't want your country to be undermined by the way they're treated. But she didn't do much because she just really wanted Elizabeth to agree on a marriage with one of her sons but when there's no sons as I said in 1584 Catherine is really going to try to make sure that Mary is freed and it's not going to work obviously and then she's going to send lots of ambassador and special envoys when

there's going to Babington plot and then when she realized that Elizabeth is literally ignoring everything they're telling her to do you you know. And Catherine finds it's not about Mary, it's the fact that she finds it absolutely disrespectful for the French rulers. And also she's disgusted. She even said like, no queen has ever done that to another queen before. And so she thinks it's horrifying that Elizabeth thought that she was above another queen and that she could do that. But at the end of the day, neither of Catherine or Elizabeth like Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots. So in the end, when Elizabeth agrees to have Mary, Queen of Scots executed and Mary dies in early 1587, these are in the last couple of years of Catherine's life.

And so the relationship with Elizabeth has by that point completely deteriorated. the relationship with Elizabeth has, by that point, completely deteriorated. Completely. Catherine hates completely Elizabeth I. She stopped all correspondence apart from one letter. There is no relationship. There's only hard feelings, extremely hard feelings. But not only that, so you're right, the last two years of Catherine's life, Elizabeth is going to become closer to Catherine's favourite son, Henry III. They're going to make a secret alliance and she's going to advise him.

And can you imagine for Catherine, like her influence over her favourite son, her golden boy, you know, he's literally the love of her life even before Henry II. And he's going to choose to listen to a woman she completely despised. And that's the end of it.

That's the end of Catherine. She's going to die like that. And I think it's quite sad. And then by 1589, so after the victory over the Spanish Armada, Elizabeth has no female rival anymore. They're all gone. And this is why we can see that there is a second reign of Elizabeth I. How interesting. Finally, why is it important to have this perspective on Elizabeth I that puts Catherine at the centre of the story?

I think it's important to understand that Elizabeth was unique as a ruler without being unique. She was queen regnant, but she was not the only queen regnant, you know, in 16th century Europe. And I think that when you look at Catherine de' Medici, who chose a different path, chose motherhood, who chose to do things maybe more by the book and to follow sometimes the rules a bit better, I think you learn why Elizabeth was unique without being unique and why her reign needs to be looked at from a continental point of view as much as from an English point of view. Because you can't really understand her reign by just looking at her decisions that she made in England.

You have to look at all the threats she was facing and you have to also to look at what type of rivalry would push her to make some decisions. And you have to also to look at what type of rivalry would push her to make some decisions. And when you look at the French perspective, or the Italian perspective, or the Spanish perspective, you have those answers, which shows us that really, it's all about being a European queen and your relations with your neighbours is going to impact your reign, it's going to impact decisions you make for your country. your reign, it's going to impact decisions you make for your country.

That Elizabeth I would never have thought of herself as isolated in Europe is crucial for our understanding of her, that actually the decisions she was making were determined by what she could see another queen doing. She may have not been a virgin queen, she may not have been a queen regnant. But someone like Catherine of Radice, that little bit older than Elizabeth, such an important figure in her life, must change how we see Elizabeth herself. Exactly. And also, not just that, Elizabeth really paid a lot of attention on what was happening on the European continent. She didn't want England to be isolated. She wanted England to be a very big political player, which she managed. But she managed through her trade relations with the provinces that were going to fight against the Spanish, but also her own relationship with Philip

II and her own relationship with Catherine de' Medici. So I think on different levels, you have the personal level of a queen who's going to look at another queen who's a bit older and made so many different choices than her. But you're also going to have a look at a queen who completely understands the power dynamic that we're playing and how, in order to become important in that small part of the world, let's face it, Europe is a small part of the world, and what she needed to do and how she needed to play the game.

In a way, you know, sometimes I think she did well and she didn't. She's the last Tudor. It's the end of her dynasty. It depends on what is the goal. Is the goal to continue the dynasty or is the goal to make a name for yourself by being different? Yeah, I always think for Elizabeth, it's, you know, après moi la deluge, it's like after me the flood. Who cares what happens after me? I was great.

You know, there's a bit of truth for that. And I think it comes from all the hurt she went through. She had to take a revenge on life. And I think her reign is also that. And for Catherine, I think she saw it differently. Honestly, I'm very glad that Catherine didn't see her last song, Henry III Die, because she worked so hard to continue the dynasty. Can you imagine? Like, 11 children, 7 children who became adults, and then all of them, it's the end of the Valois dynasty. Can you imagine for a woman who really believed in continuing the dynasty and in motherhood, seeing that? I think it would have been completely awful. But I think for Elizabeth, it was a revenge, a revenge on her younger years, definitely. And so we have the end of the Tudors and the end of the Valois.

Estelle, thank you so much for sharing with us this relationship between these two queens. It's been really fascinating. Thank you so much, Lisanna. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone and finished. Thanks for listening, everyone. That was an episode of Not Just the Tudors on my feed. Professor Susanna Lipscomb is a complete legend. She's one of my greatest friends and colleagues in the world of history.

If you enjoyed it, please head over to Not Just the Tudors, wherever you get your podcasts, and subscribe, and rate, and review, and all that kind of thing. Share it with friends. It just makes a really big difference to us. And we're really, really grateful for you guys doing that. Thank you very much. This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone.

Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts.