Dan Snow's History Hit - Scottish Kings' Sex Lives

Episode Date: November 3, 2023

One thing royal families strive for is the common touch. Whilst some have struggled with it, King James IV and V in the 15th and 16th centuries excelled in it. It could be said, however, that they took the term ‘common touch’ too literally, as it wasn’t uncommon for them to have sexual liaisons with their subjects. Who were some of the women they had their many affairs with? And what does this tell us about how liberal life north of the border was back then? Today we’re joined by author Linda Porter, to find out. This episode was edited by Siobhan Dale, and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Discover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world-renowned historians like Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsley, Matt Lewis, Tristan Hughes and more. Get 50% off your first 3 months with code DANSNOW. Download the app or sign up here.We'd love to hear from you! You can email the podcast at [e-mail] can take part in our listener survey here.

Hi everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's history hit, The Sex Lives of Scottish Kings. It's the episode you've all been clamouring for. Everyone is talking about it. This is finally your chance to delve in to the sex lives, the private lives of the Stewart family. This is an episode from our sibling podcast, Betwixt the Sheets. It's our smash hit. It's a reasonably new podcast in which the sex historian, Dr. Kate Lister, looks at, well, subjects just like this, really. As she points out, one thing royal families strive for is the common touch. Well, the Scottish royal family touched plenty of commoners in a sexual way, as you're about to find out. She's interviewing the author Linda Porter to find out more.

Parental advisory, folks. Enjoy. Hello, my lovely Batwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. I am here to warn you, to save you from yourselves, to save you from me, to save you from being upset or triggered or just anything bad happening to you because I like you and I like you being here and that means I have to give you the fair dues warning. Here we go. This is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things on a range of adult subjects and you should be an adult too. Now, if you're still persisting in listening to this and you get upset, well, they're just tough tits, quite frankly, because you just brought this on yourself, because fair dues, you were warned.

Royal engagements were done somewhat differently in the 16th century, especially in Scotland. Oh, no, no, no, no. None of this English stuffiness there. No, no. King James IV and V saw it as their duties to, how do we put it, really get amongst their people, really get in there and allow them to see and in some cases feel their subjects. and allow them to see and in some cases feel their subjects. I mean, these were kings that really went the extra mile to get the common touch. Some encounters were more, how do you put it, transactional than others.

For instance, if you were to browse through the treasurer's accounts of James IV, you would see that a payment was made to one Jane Bare-arse for some kind of liaison that they had. What could that have been? What could the king possibly be paying Jane Bare-arse for? The mind boggles. And who was Jane Bare-arse? Were there others like her? And what became of the people these kings were having affairs with? What do you look for in a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs

by just turning it up and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, what beautiful times. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Jerry. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, with me, Kate Lister. If I was to say to you, royal affairs, what would you think of? My esteemed and powerful legal team have advised me not to suggest any answer to that particular question, so I'll just leave it for you to ponder on. However, when we go back, we're on much safer legal territory, and we are going to go back hundreds of years to the

Scottish throne of King James IV and V to find out about their affairs, and there were many of them, and their army of illegitimate children that they had. What were the consequences of all these affairs? Were there any if you were the king? Probably not. And why was there so much sexual liberation in Scotland compared to the rest of the United Kingdom? Today I am joined by historian Linda Porter who's going to help us get some answers. But before we get into the episode can I ask you a favour? I know I've asked you every episode for the last few weeks, but I'll ask you again. We would love it if you would take a couple of seconds and vote for us at the Listener's Choice Award at the British Podcast Awards.

If you follow the link in the show notes, you could just give it a little click and it'll be over in a few seconds and it would mean the world to us. And if you've already voted, just get out there and press gang your friends into voting as well honestly just get violent we don't mind don't really do that but it would be lovely if you would vote for us we were shortlisted last year and we so nearly got there i think we can do it this year if you help i am ready to do this betwixt the sheets it's only linda porter how are you doing i'm doing okay i've been busy since we last spoke oh do tell a new book coming out next june nearly a year from now but as you know these things take years in publishing yeah but it does have a date now it's coming out on june 6th and it's a biography of margaret tudor henry viii's older sister one of the most maligned and neglected tudor ladies yeah i'm not sure i know much about her actually

well you'll find out a bit more today because she was the wife of james the fourth of scotland see how that all came together just then. Because we are talking about the Stuart monarchs in Scotland. And this is really interesting because the Tudors have a reputation, well, Henry VIII, I suppose, has a reputation for large appetites and sexual proclivities and just generally being a big animal of a human being. But it turns out the stewards could give him a fair old run for his money. Absolutely. I'm probably outdoing him on this front quite considerably. I mean, in some ways, you know, when you think about it, Kate, although Henry does have that reputation, he was funnily enough a bit of a prude in some respects.

Do tell. But in Scotland, they were perhaps a bit more upfront and outgoing in more ways than one about their sexual proclivities. You've got to remember that when Henry VII came to the throne in 1485, the Stuarts had been on the throne of Scotland for over 100 years. So they're an old dynasty in comparison to the Tudors. And one of the kings I'd like us to talk about a bit more, because I think he's my favourite of all the British kings, James IV, not just because of the sort of absurdly awful and in many respects romantic manner of his death on the battlefield of Flodden in 1513, but because he was such, in so many ways, the epitome of a Renaissance king. A polymath, hugely interested in absolutely everything from sort of dentistry to fairly ordinary women and once described by a famous Scottish historian as a sort of classic wencher. That's a nice term. And it's nice for this programme as well. It's what you want to hear

about really, isn't it? Yes, it is. But of course, he came to the throne, James IV, in just as dramatic, if not more so, circumstances than Henry VII had done just three years earlier. Because in 1488, James IV came to the throne as a 15-year-old in revolt against his own father. Oh, that's some drama. It is, yes. He actually died on the battlefield in mysterious circumstances. He was pretty obviously assassinated. And his son is supposed to have worn this iron belt around his waist, adding weight to it every year as a penance. But I think that was more a PR thing.

I mean, for one thing, you can't go wenching with an iron belt around. And it might not be that quick to take off. I'm sure there's some sections of society that would be all about that. But in general, no, that would be more of a hindrance, wouldn't it? It would when you think about it. Yes. So in England, you have this man in his late 20s who has a vague and dubious claim to the throne, establishing a new dynasty. In Scotland, you have a boy of 15. He was 15 just three months earlier. He was born in the March. just three months earlier. He was born in the March, so he was 15 in 1488, whose family life had been quite different from that of any of the Tudors. His father, James III of Scotland, was a remote and not very sort of medieval kingly man. He wanted to make peace with England, which didn't go down well with the Scots at all. It may have been a good idea in practice,

but it wasn't popular. And he liked staying in Edinburgh and listening to music. He'd been married at the age of 17 to a 12-year-old, Margaret of Denmark. So, you know, James IV was brought up by his mother with his two brothers in Stirling, while his father stayed in Edinburgh. And in 1482, there was a huge revolt by James III's brother, so James IV's uncle. And this sort of really cast a wedge between the royal couple, because in order to sort of safeguard both her husband and her son, Margaret of Denmark did a deal, essentially, with the erring brother, the Duke of Albany.

And this meant that the young James IV really saw very little of his father in the age between 10 and 15, and was either induced or encouraged, and I think perhaps because he felt it was the best thing, to side with the nobles who were in revolt against James III. And eventually, of course, this did lead to his father's death. And so he came to the throne as a very young man, well-educated, having been brought up with two brothers who were both younger than him, of course. His mother died at the age of just 29, but she does seem to have been a big influence on him. And he didn't have any kind of real political background or training, though he had been well-educated. He spoke umpteen European languages. If you ever see a portrait of him, he has an extraordinarily

intelligent and sort of lively face. There's this famous portrait of him holding a hawk. He loved to hunt. He loved music. He was very interested in science. As a king, he supported a lot of military advances. And he loved women, quite evidently. He's a busy boy then.

A busy boy, yes. Perhaps because as a teenager, as indeed was his son, James V, whom we'll talk about later, his interest in females was seen as a sort of useful distraction by the political class who wanted to keep him in check. You know, it uses up a fair amount of energy, wenching, after all. I'm surprised he had the energy for it. It sounds like he's up to so much stuff. Well, yes, but he was that kind of man, restless, charismatic. He could ride, it is said, 100 miles in a day, not on the same horse, obviously, which might have dropped dead

under him. And he was, for many years, one of the most eligible bachelor kings in Europe. And so he sort of looked for a wife. He would have quite liked to have married one of the daughters of Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile. But after a while, they said to him, terribly sorry, but we haven't got any daughters left by this point. They're all married off to someone else. And it was always pretty much on the cards that he would marry the elder daughter of Henry VII, although she was a great deal younger than him. the elder daughter of Henry VII, although she was a great deal younger than him. But until the marriage took place, and it didn't take place until 1503, he'd had a series of mistresses, some of whom were of noble background and who were clearly attractive young ladies of the court, who'd been kind of dangled in front of him by fathers and uncles who saw this as a good route

to retain power and influence. The first mistress that we know of was called Marion Boyd, and he had two children by her, a son and a daughter. Oh, wow. That's quite serious. Oh, yes. In the mid-1490s. Then he moved to a lady called Margaret Drummond and had a couple of children by her. In about 1500, he began a liaison with a lady called Janet Kennedy and she lived with him quite openly even though there were marriage negotiations going on at the time and they had a son and daughter who survived and two other daughters whose names we don't know but we do know that one of them died so that by the time he married Margaret Tudor, who came north to marry him at the age of 13,

and he was 30 by that time, so it's a big age gap. Margaret Tudor was one of the most splendid of all progresses in Tudor England. It's overlooked because it took place right at the beginning of the century, but she was her father's public emissary and to show in person the strength of the new Tudor dynasty. So that everywhere the poor girl went, she had to change her clothes and makeup before she went anywhere on public display, which is a hell of a thing to do at the age of 13. At 13? Could you even imagine that? Finally, she got over the border to marry James, whose mistress, Janet Kennedy, was expecting their third child at the time. And had only just been sent off up into northeastern Scotland to a castle that she'd been given.

How much Margaret knew about James's sexual past, we don't know. I think it's a little naive to assume she didn't know anything about it. she didn't know anything about it. You know, young noble and royal girls who marry at that time are often presented in historical novels as people who, you know, don't know one end of a penis from another, to be frank. But I suspect in reality, they were given that kind of information, albeit perhaps in rather basic form by ladies of their chamber, etc, etc. They would have had to, without getting too detailed on this, there must have been some kind of sexual activity on the wedding night, because otherwise the marriage could be annulled, you know, it wasn't thought to be a proper marriage or anything.

We don't know whether there were any of these kind of raucous beddings that used to take place. It would appear not, because in the details of all the wonderful feastings and the ceremony itself, which is a very beautiful one, it took place in Holyrood House, which was then an abbey being converted into a palace, essentially. But Somerset Herald from England, who wrote about it, said at the end of the evening, the king had the queen apart and they went together. That is all we know about the wedding night. But we also know that while James didn't fully abandon Janet Kennedy until later on, and he did go to visit her in the autumn while she was in the final stages of this third pregnancy,

he didn't make any attempt to get Margaret Tudor pregnant initially. She had her first child when she was 16. Right. Okay. It's interesting. Which I think shows both a good deal of common sense and restraint on his part. He did have another mistress, a more distant cousin. Almost every third person in Scotland had the surname Stuart. Yes, it gets very confusing. Lady Isabel Stuart. And she gave birth to a daughter called Janet, who was for a while the governess

and lady guardian to Mary, Queen of Scots. She was, of course, her aunt. I was just going to ask you, what happens to this fleet of illegitimate children that are now wandering around Scotland? Ah, now that's just what I was coming to. Because you see, most of them were still in Stirling Castle, which was Margaret Tudor's dower castle. Why are all these children wandering around? She must have known. She seems to have. We don't know whether she threw a tantrum or whether they had hastily, the last of them being moved out. Lady Catherine Stuart was moved out to Edinburgh Castle at about

the time of Margaret's marriage. But certainly they weren't there when James took Margaret on a progress to show her to the Scottish people. Though they were there, some of them were there subsequently. And again, whenever the king and queen came, that's been moved out in a hurry. He was an affectionate and conscientious father, James. He acknowledged them. He made sure the girls had good marriages and the boys had an excellent education. And his eldest son, Alexander Stuart, became Archbishop of St. Andrews. Wow. Okay. That was a standard route for illegitimate children of royalty and nobility to go into the church, of course. So he was an affectionate and conscientious father well before he married Margaret Tudor. And as an indication of the perhaps breadth of his taste for the

backgrounds of the ladies that he bedded, there is a record in the splendid Scottish treasurer's accounts of a payment to someone known simply as Jane Bear Arse. No, there isn't. Yes, there is. Oh my God, that's amazing. Yes, I mean, it doesn't leave much to the imagination, does it? Is it bear as in nude or is it bear as in grizzly bear? And either one of those.

Oh no, it's bear as in nude, B-A-R-E. Wow, Jane Bear Arse, that's incredible. Do we know, how much did he pay her? To be truthful, I can't remember. It wasn't a huge amount. The ladies got remunerated on the basis of their social class. Not surprising, but I don't think Jane was sort of at the top end of the social class. Let's put it that way.

We're going to guess that Jane Barehouse maybe wasn't one of the nobility. I think not, no. But it is a lovely insight both into these sort of sexual activities of James IV and also of his cheerfulness in acknowledging these women. Yeah, there's no shame there. No, no, there isn't. They didn't see it as shameful, I don't think. Another interesting aspect of all of this, and Janet Kennedy, the third of his main mistresses, is a case in point, is that the whole idea of marriage. I mean, this is a pre-Reformation Catholic country.

In theory, you couldn't be divorced. Yeah. But in practice, the church seemed to allow marriages to come to an end or just quietly be overlooked. Oh, interesting. Because Janet Kennedy had been married before she became James IV's mistress, which she did at the age of about 20. And she had also been

mistress to the Earl of Angus, who was a much older than her, but very prominent nobleman. You know, she was actually married at this time, but later on, James married her off to someone else conveniently. Eventually, she kind of left this second husband as well. So it seems to have been quite fluid. We're a bit loose and fast with the old marriage laws up in Scotland around this time. They were, yes. Do you know if that is exclusively for the king? Is the king allowed to be fast and loose with marriage laws? Or is there evidence that other people could do that? No, not so much. It's more people a bit further down the social scale, probably with money and influence. Whether there were payments off to the church about all

of this, I don't think we know. But I mean, certainly further down the scale, I imagine what happened there was often what happened throughout the centuries in England, that you had this so-called sale of wives. And you took your wife to market. Often all of that stuff was pre-arranged. You knew who was going to bid for her. So it's a bit like what happens in the mayor of Casterbridge, and that was 18th century. You know, you knew who was going to bid for her. So it's a bit like what happens in the Mayor of Casterbridge, you know, and that was 18th century. Crazy that really happened. It is. But if you couldn't afford all the legal stuff and the church wouldn't let you, people did find a way to deal with this kind of problem.

So anyhow, by 1503, James is married to Margaret Tudor. Yes, who probably wasn't best pleased to discover that her dour castle of Stirling was a royal nursery. This was dealt with, at any rate, in what seems to have been a reasonable and kind fashion. You might wonder against this background, but the marriage was actually quite successful. Oh, really? I mean, I wouldn't say they were madly in love with each other, but it was a marriage that became one of affection and respect. OK. And James realized that in this 13-year-old girl, he had the opportunity to mold a queen who could become a regent. Right.

If necessary, which, of course, he did 10 years later. And he certainly was an indulgent husband. He showered her with furs and fine dresses and jewellery. On the morning of their wedding, she got given Dumbarton Castle, which was another of these wedding gifts. Given a castle. You got quite a few castles. And thereafter, you were supposed to get the rents and all of that that went with them.

But that went badly wrong for Margaret many years later. But that's another story. And she must have known what her husband was like. He doesn't seem to have been quite so blatant about mistresses after he married her. Well, a bit of discretion. It's only polite, isn't it? It is really, yes. But he treated her very well. There was always a rivalry between him and Henry VIII. Henry VIII, one can't substantiate this, but there is some reference to the fact that he'd always resented his elder sister because she was married by proxy in 1502 and thereafter had to be viewed as a queen before

she actually went up to Scotland and therefore took precedence over him. And he seems to have remembered this for all of his life. And he viewed her lively husband as a rival, of course. And James was trying to establish himself as a major European monarch, which he succeeded in doing. One of the other aspects of this period, which I think is often overlooked in the whole of British history, but certainly at this time, Scotland was a forward-looking country, a European country, particularly with links to Scandinavia, of course. These sort of links are overlooked, I think, in our history. But James IV was himself half Danish, of course.

As was Charles I later on. We tend to overlook these things. And yet they do have some bearing, I think, on the sort of people that we're talking about. But anyhow, Margaret had her first child at the age of 16, and it was a boy. So there was huge celebrations. Well played, Margaret. Yes. she had a terribly difficult delivery and in fact most of her deliveries were difficult her life was thought

to be in danger for quite a while and her husband went on pilgrimage to one of the main pilgrimage sites in scotland which was something he liked doing anyhow to pray for her recovery and she did recover but the child only lived for about a year. It's terribly sad. If you read the treasurer's accounts, you can read the satin coats and sort of beribboned pillows and all that that they ordered for him. And that's really all that we have left of him. And thereafter, Margaret gave birth about every sort of 18 months or so. And none of the children survived. There were four, in fact. Oh, my God. Two other boys and a girl.

Until in the year 1512, she gave birth to another son who would become James V, and he survived and would survive to become king, in fact. And I think what's often overlooked in all of the hoo-ha about Catherine of Aragon being unable and Henry being unable to produce an heir is that north of the border they had just the same difficulty. Same thing, I was just thinking that. Exactly, yes. But of course, Margaret was 17 years younger than her husband, whereas

Catherine of Aragon was nearly six years older than hers. And James sounds much nicer than Henry VIII. I think he was, actually, yes, as a hubby, he was a lot nicer. But of course, things went disastrously wrong when Louis XII of France, who was, you know, the Scottish and the French had this old alliance. It's a very, very old friendship, which goes way back into the Middle Ages. And Henry VIII and his father-in-law, Ferdinand of Aragon, were then at war with France. And Louis XII called in essentially this favour from James and said, you know, you need to essentially attack your brother-in-law. So while Henry was in France, James, with a huge army, numbers vary, but at least at one stage it was about 30,000 people. It may have been less than that at the time that he actually met the English in battle.

Moved south and crossed the border, a cold stream across the river there, and set up camp in Northumberland. Much to the panic of Catherine of Aragon, who'd been left as regent down in the south of England, and she sent the Earl of Surrey, who, interestingly enough, had escorted Margaret Tudor to her wedding. And had been full of bonhomie with James IV to the point that poor Margaret felt very excluded as a 13-year-old and wrote a letter to her father saying, I wish I were with your grace now and many

times more, which is very sad. But she did settle in well after that. But anyhow, this same man, by this time about 70 years old, who escorted her up to Scotland and sort of drank wine and generally, you know, feasted with James IV, was the commander of the much smaller force, which met James IV. It's just literally about six miles over the border from Coldstream in the far northeast of Northumberland. It isn't actually at Flodden. It's given that name because that's where James was first camped. It's at Branston Hill. And you can still see the battlefield.

It is extraordinarily evocative if you know what happened there. Because it was a terrible slaughter. Worse at times than the battles at the Somme. And the Scots, who had a wonderful commanding position on a hill, had had to move quickly to get there. And James had all of the gear. You know, he had the latest cannons, the latest military advisors, blah, blah, blah. What he did not have was manoeuvrability.

And he was tempted down the hill into this bog at the bottom. Ah, that's a mistake. Where the flower of the Scottish nobility died with him. The Flowers of the Forest is not a contemporary Scottish song, though it is about Flodden. It was written much later, though the tune may be considerably earlier. And Margaret, there are sort of dramatic chronicle stories about how she begged James not to go and everything. She was a very supportive wife. And I suppose she knew the risks because in those days, I mean, Henry VIII canted around on a horse over in Northern France and never saw any actual fighting at all. But

James died fighting with his men and his body was identified the next day by Englishmen who knew him. And the news was brought to Margaret, who was then 23 years old, pregnant again. Oh dear. then 23 years old pregnant again oh dear with a another son whom she gave birth to the following spring and she had been left as regent by james the fourth with one important stipulation that she didn't remarry because he realized how this would divide and fracture the scottish nobility it's one of the things james the James IV succeeded in doing while being involved in all these other many activities, some obviously more sexual than others, was in uniting the nobility under him and around his court.

And he was, I think, rightly afraid of what would happen. On the other hand, Margaret was left in charge of her son and the government at a time when she was pregnant and progressively could not really attend council meetings. She was viewed with suspicion because she was English and a Tudor. And she did, I won't go into this too much more, but you need to understand it for James, what happens with James V subsequently. She did remarry disastrously to the Earl of Angus a year after her husband's death. It was a desperately unhappy marriage, and I think she realised very soon what a mistake it had been.

But she seems to have felt that she would be damned if she remained single and damned if she married. May as well marry her. And that perhaps the protection of a husband was to marry. But it cost her the regency in the end. I'll be back with Linda and the Scottish Kings after in human history. We're talking Vikings, Normans, Kings and Popes,

who were rarely the best of friends, murder, rebellions, and crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts. I want to go back and pick you up on Jane Bearass because I've been wondering as we're going through,

where would a king meet a woman like that? I can understand James meeting the nobility and socialising, but that sounds like what they would have called at the time, a common woman. So where would he have even met her? Because the Stuart kings went out and about. They were highly visible to their subjects. And unlike Henry VIII, who would have fled if you got in about half a mile of him, you were allowed to touch and greet them and all that sort of thing. So in rambling around, because of the Scottish justice system, which was a series of assizes, really, they were called ayres in Scotland, A-Y-R-E-S, but they were like mobile assizes. The king often presided over these because it was an absolutely important tenet of Stuart monarchy that you were visible to your subjects and you were seen to rule and dispense justice. This didn't mean that you couldn't keep as magnificent a court as you could afford in Edinburgh and Stirling or wherever.

Of course, it's a small population, tiny in comparison, even with England then. Parts of the country were difficult to travel in, anyhow. The Highlands, where Gaelic was still spoken in, James IV was the last Scottish king to be fluent in Gaelic. But the Highlands were nearly always in revolt. You know, if you want to put a lid on this kind of powder keg, you do need to be visible and to be seen to be understood and a loving monarch to your people and all that because i've had various people in scotland when i was up there some

years ago speaking about the book that you know is the basis for what i'm talking about now crown of thistles various people said to me well why are you king of scots and not king of scotland and it's because the scots are your people. Scotland is a place, but you are King of the Scottish people. And that's why. And that, I think, is how James met these women, you know, while traveling around. I mean, he may have met some of them while out on pilgrimage as well. He liked to observe the niceties and was, you know, within the standards of his time. Both he and his wife, Margaret, were not slavishly pious, but they did observe all the proprieties and everything,

at least on the religious front. So I think that's how they met. Because, no, I mean, you can't imagine Henry VIII... God, no. ...sort of having some meeting of a lady, not a noble background that he met on Ashdown Forest or somewhere like that, you know. It just didn't happen.

No. He was terrified about venereal disease anyway, Henry, wasn't he? Yes. Well, and then any kind of disease. I mean, poor Anne Boleyn, when she was possibly dying of sweating sickness, of course she didn't. She was sent back to Hever. And Henry very generously sent her his second best physician. Cheers, Henry. Presumably because he was keeping the very best one for himself. So poor old James, James IV, dies in battle, which is very impressive, really. He was right there in the thick of it. It was a terrible waste.

How old was he when that happened? Oh, 40. So, you know, middle-aged, but still by suited standards, but still very active. And he was known for his physical bravery as well and his general prowess in arms. I mean, he knew that it was hopeless when he gathered the royal guard around him. They, of course, had all the latest gear. But the English had this dreadfully effective weapon in closed quarters fighting, the bill, which was a hedging implement. But you can imagine the damage you could do with that.

And so he died on the field. You know, his throat was gashed and he had an arrow in his face as well. implement. But you can imagine the damage you could do with that. And so he died on the field, you know, his throat was gashed and he had an arrow in his face as well. And he probably bled to death. But yes, it is extraordinarily sad. It's a bit like if you were to go back to Edward II, because he died in such tragic and dramatic circumstances, people didn't want to believe that he was dead. You know, there were rumours that he had fled the field and was now wandering in Europe and all that kind of thing, but this is not the case. So tell me about James V then. Is he a chip off the old block? Is he a wencher? Oh, very much so.

Oh, he is? He is indeed a wencher, yes. He was red-haired, though face-wise he probably resembled his mother more than his father. He was a handsome man. I mean, they both were. He was known as the Red Fox. And he used to go out at night, you know, essentially seeing what the talent might be out there. But of course, he had the most awful childhood. He and his younger brother, the posthumous son, died later on as well at the age of about two. They were removed from Margaret's care when she remarried. were removed from Margaret's care when she remarried.

She didn't see James V for several years, actually, because she came down to London to spend a year with her brother. She did give birth to a daughter by Angus, the rather infamous and wonderful Lady Margaret Douglas. She ended up in the Tower of London, having unwisely agreed to marry without Henry VIII's consent. And she was actually, at the time, his heir. Oh, whoops, whoops. This wasn't very well received, as you can imagine, it was before the birth of Edward VI.

James V grew up, of course, with a series of regencies. Initially, his fairly distant cousin, another Duke of Albany, if you're not a Stuart, you're an Albany in Scotland, and he was born in France, came over partly because the French kings thought it would be useful to have a person in that kind of position there. John or Jehan, as he signed himself Stuart, Duke of Albany, did his best for James V and attempted to bring the warring nobles of Scotland together. But he wasn't there for a long enough period of time. He kept coming and going back to France. And eventually, when he left altogether, there was just almost a complete free-for-all. Angus, who was still Margaret's husband at that time, her second husband,

wanted the regency, but he and Margaret had fallen out big time by then, and she would have done almost anything to stop him getting it. And this was really bad for young James V. His education was neglected. He did see his mother from time to time and appears to have been very fond of her. And her one aim in life after her first husband died was to ensure that her son got and maintained the throne, that he was not pushed out by rivals, that he could eventually rule when he came of age. And she stuck to that despite all the criticisms that had been made of her with absolute conviction and succeeded in the end. She did briefly regain the regency in 1525, but then it was decided that they'd have a kind of rotating regency passing sort of every four months or so between some of the leading nobles.

And they rather naively started off with the Earl of Angus, who didn't wish to rotate. Why would you? No, why would you? Well, so he held on to James and the regency. James hated him. He hated his stepfather. He thought, you know, he had no right to the position that he had. He wanted to rule for himself. He was only in his early teens at the time. And again, Angus clearly tried to distract him with women. James V, rather like his father, early developed a taste for women. Now, he had at least nine mistresses that we know of.

And some of them seem to have been sort of at the same time. You can tell from the dates of the children they gave birth to that, you know, some are in the same year. And again, he looked after his children as well. They're terribly confusing because they're all either called James or Robert. James's favourite mistress, however, over the years was a lady called Margaret Erskine. Tell me about Margaret. Well, Margaret, so far as we know, is a rather nasty piece of work. Oh, dear. She harboured the idea of actually marrying him. And occasionally Scottish kings had married noble women. It wasn't unheard of. Basically,

they preferred to marry either Scandinavian or French women if they could, because it was more dowry and prestige. James obviously thought about marrying her, James V. By this time, he's in his mid-twenties, but he wanted a French bride and he wanted the daughter of King François Premier, Princess Madeleine. It's true that she was consumptive and actually died within six weeks of finally arriving back in Scotland with him, but she was what he wanted. Margaret Erskine took this being cast aside very ill. It would have been a slight impediment in that she was already married. That would hinder things. Well, given what I already said, however, about the fluidity. So the women as well can just kind of shed a husband.

So it might not have been that much of an impediment, but James decided that she wasn't important enough. She held a grudge ever since. She'd wanted her son, who becomes the Earl of Murray, Mary Queen of Scots' half-brother, to essentially be nominated as the heir, and he never was. And eventually, poor Mary Queen of Scots ended up as Margaret Erskine's prisoner when she was forced to abdicate. She played the long game there, didn't she? She did, yeah. So anyhow, James, by this time, has numerous mistresses.

God knows how many illegitimate children, at least aboutames by this time has numerous mistresses god knows how many illegitimate children at least about eight by this time that we know of there aren't any jane bear arses in his well there's none that have been recorded recorded no there may have been some but we know of the greater ladies but not ladies of that sort of background they've got some amazing names like who was euphema Elphirstone? Oh, Euphemia Elphirstone. Yes, she was one of his mistresses. Mother of the first Robert Stuart. I think he was one of the half siblings

dining with Mary, Queen of Scots when David Rizzio was stabbed. Oh, hellfire. Right, okay. Euphemia was a fairly good Scottish name. I've never met a Euphemia before. At least she wasn't called Margaret or Catherine. True, true. James V was met a Euphemia before. No, she wasn't called Margaret or Catherine. True, true.

James V was determined to make a good marriage. He wanted a French princess. He married his princess, Madeleine, in a splendid ceremony at Notre Dame. And by that time, he had sufficient control of his country because he became a very competent monarch, like his father. He's often dismissed and quite often disliked. He's given the episode of the most unpleasant of all the Stuarts. I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Alan Orjanaga. And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research from the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings. Normans. Kings and popes. Who were rarely the best of friends. Murder.

Rebellions. And crusades. Find out who we really were. By subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Wherever you get your podcasts. Well, if he was, there could be reason for it in his his background but i don't think it's fair or true anyhow and this is often said to be a very romantic match you know it was a huge wedding it was known that she was unwell right princess madeline who was 16 year old she she had tb

she survived the journey to scotland but barely, and died within six weeks of arriving there. And it's often been put in chronicles and historical fiction that she died in James's arms. But as you probably know, royalty didn't do that kind of thing in those days. It's very unlikely that James was anywhere near her deathbed. And, you know, while he wasn't Henry VIII, you didn't deliberately expose yourself to, you know, they were superstitious, didn't know what they were. They knew pretty much that she had consumption, even if they didn't know that it was TB, as we understand it. We don't know where he was when Madeline died, but she did die. And he didn't waste a lot of time. He wrote a letter to his father-in-law, which essentially

said, sorry, dad, and who else can you suggest? I'm paraphrasing it, as you can tell, but that is the gist of what it said. And so it was suggested that he marry the tall, elegant, and very recently widowed herself, Mary of Guise, the daughter of a prominent family from Northeastern France. She had had a very happy marriage. It wasn't an arranged marriage to the Duke de Longaville, but she had been happily married and his premature death upset her considerably. What upset her even more was a letter from Francis I saying, guess what, you're going to be Queen of Scotland. But there wasn't anything you could do about it. You know, and eventually leaving her son with her mother to bring him up,

she set off to Scotland and was received. She was a gracious woman with a great deal of presence. She made all the right noises about how lovely Scotland was, so she probably didn't see it that way. She and James had several children. They had two boys who died within days of each other before they had Mary, Queen of Scots. And theirs appears to have been a rather passionless marriage. It was a political marriage. James V continued to have mistresses through this time. I was just going to ask if he was still... Yes, no, he did. I don't actually think we know the names of many of them, but it is known that

after the Battle of Solway Moss, which James V watched from a hill, he wasn't going to get done in like his father did, but it was just as serious a loss almost in 1541. He did probably visit a mistress before he went to see his wife in December 1541. She was then pregnant with a child that would turn out to be Mary, Queen of Scots. And James, although he didn't know it then, was dying. It's often been said in the past, you know how Victorians have this sort of thing, that he grew depressed and sort of just gave up the ghost. But he almost certainly picked up something like cholera or dysentery from being with his army. Because armies were full of disease. And one of his leading nobles had died

of cholera during this campaign. and James probably picked it up. And in those days, if you got something like that, you didn't last long. And it's fortunate that he didn't pass this on to Mary, her unborn child. Yes. And eventually he took to what would become his deathbed in Falkland Palace, which is, again, well worth visiting for anyone who's never been there. It's got fantastic portraits and beautiful architecture and grounds and died his daughter was six days old he'd been told of her birth obviously he and his wife were grief-stricken by the deaths of their two sons

Margaret had actually comforted her son and daughter-in-law Margaret got on well with Mary of Guise and she came back to court and was fairly well revered. But this is autumn of 1542, because Mary, Queen of Scots, was born on December the 6th, 1542, and her father died six days later, having never seen her. And the famous saying that is attributed to him about the Scottish monarchy, it can we alas, and it'll gang we alas, which may be a reference to Marjorie Stewart, the daughter of Robert the Bruce, who was married to someone called Stewart, and therefore you get the Stewart name subsequently. It may be a reference to her or to the maid of Norway.

But what is supremely unlikely is that he managed to gather his wits enough to say anything that memorable. Because if you're dying of a horrible rampage of disease you tend not to come out with this kind of stuff don't you but that is how Mary Queen of Scots came to the throne and her father and grandfather who are often overlooked because they're Scottish you know rather than English I think are just as interesting I had no idea certainly had had exciting sex lives as you can tell I'm quite surprised by by how much freedom that they had. I think it's brilliant that they could kind of be married and then, oh, did I have a wife? Did that sexual freedom extend to the wives?

Is there any record of them having lovers? Yes, it did. Because, I mean, Janet Kennedy, perhaps the most loved mistresses of James IV, was married when she first of all became the old Earl of Angus's mistress and subsequently when she became James's mistress. She'd been married very young at the age of 16, which was quite common for aristocratic girls. Well, she was lower aristocracy, but it was still quite common. But, you know, the fact that there was a husband was not an impediment on anything.

And eventually she married someone else and dispensed with him after a while. She lived well into the 1540s. In fact, I have a feeling that she died in 1545 and outlived even James V. He was only 30 when he died, of course. Very sad because it was a reign full of promise. He had a brilliant court. 30, that's no age, had a brilliant court 30 that's no age is it

no it's no age at all i mean it was claimed that his health had been weakened by all these sexual liaisons he'd had as a teenager but i think it's more likely that you know he caught something very nasty while on campaign with the troops well if he'd been trying to have sex with people with that weighted belt thing on him or or was that not him? Well, that was James V. Oh, right. Okay. Oh, well, then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And no, well, it would have been nasty for them, I should think.

God damn. If you were at the receiving end, it would be difficult. I mean, we've heard of chastity belts. It's almost like the male version. That really is lying back and thinking of your country, isn't it? That one. You've been so enlightening to talk to you i had no idea about these absolute scallywags well they are that's a good word for them but what i like about them as well is they weren't just like debauched you know horn dogs running around they seem to have been really good at their jobs as well yes they were and they were by and large, perhaps is a bit of a feeble word, but they were considerate and not irresponsible towards the women

that they bedded and the children who had been given birth to. James IV's eldest illegitimate son, Alexander Stuart, died with him. Wow. He died beside his father. That's amazing. He was a bookish, short-sighted boy. Not good in battle. He died fighting with him. Wow. He died beside his father. That's amazing. He was a bookish, short-sighted boy. Not good in battle. But he did die fighting with him.

Oh. No, probably not. Of course, God knows how many people were short-sighted in those days. It's not surprising you kept on killing people. Do you think that's sometimes like, you think how many people today wear glasses and contacts and like back in the day they wouldn't have had that. Everyone must have just like walking around in a haze most of the time yes not being able to see you have been so

much fun to talk to if people want to know more about you your work and these scallywag kings where can they find you i mean i'm on twitter and i'm now on threads can you believe it that's not launched today didn't it yes as of today i am on Instagram and I have my own website, www.lindaporter.net. Much of what I've told you today is based on my third book, which came out in 2013. And it's called Crown of Thistles, The Fatal Inheritance of Mary, Queen of Scots. And it covers James IV, James V and Mary until she came into England. And if you like, it's her backstory. the fifth and Mary until she came into England and if you like it's her backstory but it did alert a lot of people to the fact that you know you don't have to be Scottish to be interested

in Scottish history absolutely part of the British Isles history after all absolutely oh Linda thank you so much for joining me today you've been an absolute tour de force okay thank you Kate lovely to talk to you again. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Linda for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcasts. And if you'd like us to explore a subject

or if you just want to say hello, you can now email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. We have got episodes on Barbie as a feminist icon and the history of superstition all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Siobhan Dale and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit. you