Dan Snow's History Hit - 'Seducing and Killing Nazis'

Episode Date: January 15, 2020

During the Second World War the Netherlands fell to advancing German forces in just a few hours. The Dutch found themselves under Nazi occupation. Many men and women resisted, which took many different forms. Recently the story emerged of three young women who chose a particularly dangerous way in which to strike back against the German occupiers.In this podcast Dan talks to the writer Sophie Poldermans about Hannie Schaft and sisters Truus and Freddie Oversteegen. With astonishing bravery these three young women seduced high-ranking Nazi officers, lured them into the woods and killed them. They also provided Jewish children with safe houses and gathered vital intelligence for the resistance.Sophie tells us their story.

Hello everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. I'm just recording podcasts and films for the History Hit podcast on the TV channel, historyhit.tv. We just had James Holland back in, I mean, second world war legend, for a proper grilling about the air war. We've had Hayley Nolan talking about Anne Boleyn. We're going to be discussing whether or not Hitler did in fact die in the bunker in Berlin. Of course he did. We're going to be discussing whether or not Hitler did in fact die in the bunker in Berlin. Of course he did. We're going to be debunking the conspiracy theories, what we're going to be doing. So all sorts going on today. But I'm here to talk to you about a very different podcast.

This one that's coming up, it features the Dutch historian and writer Sophie Poldemans. She tells the most extraordinary story of three young women who joined the resistance after the Netherlands fell to Nazi German forces 80 years ago this spring. These three young women, Hanni Schaft and the sisters Trus and Freddy Overstiegen, with astonishing bravery joined the resistance, carried out various tasks, but one of them was to seduce German officers, But one of them was to seduce German officers, take them into the woods and kill them. It's really one of the most extraordinary wartime stories that I've heard. You can go onto History Hit TV.

You can use the code POD6, P-O-D-6. You get six weeks for free of History Hit TV. If you go over and sign up with the code POD6, P-O-D-6, we have hundreds of documentaries on there. We've got new ones going up all the time. We've got record numbers of subscribers coming at the moment. So thank you very much to everybody. We're really trying to build the world's best history channel and we couldn't do it without you. It's very, very exciting. So use the code POD6. Thank you also, if you want to, for listening to my whining and pleas about rating the podcast. It's so annoying when podcasters do it, but you got to do it. Thank you for giving it five star ratings and writing kind reviews.

Really, really appreciate it. Hundreds of you have done that. It's very generous. It's very generous. I really appreciate it. In the meantime, everybody, here is Sophie Polamans. Sophie, thank you so much for going on the podcast. It's very nice to be here thank you you have written a truly remarkable story so tell me about the subjects of this book it's about three teenage Dutch girls Hannes Haft and the sisters Truus and Freddy Overstegen. And they were very young teenagers. They were only 19, 16 and 14 at the beginning of World War II. And then when Nazi Germany occupied the Netherlands in May 1940, they were faced with the question what to do, to adapt or to resist. And it's very remarkable that these three girls literally took up arms in order to combat the enemy. So they joined the armed resistance and that's what makes this story

so unique. How do you join the resistance or rather how did they join the resistance? What was the process? Well of course it started very gradually and the three girls didn't know each other at the time yet. They met in 1943. So Hannie Schaft, she was actually a very shy girl growing up in the city of Haarlem. And Haarlem is about 12 miles west of Amsterdam. And then she studied law in Amsterdam, because ideals like justice and peace were instilled in her. And then, well, already in 1939, so when Holland was not even part of the war yet, but when Nazi Germany occupied Poland, Hany decided to send parcels to Polish officers through the International Red Cross. So she started very early. And actually, the overstay sisters, they grew up in the same city of Haarlem. And they lived with their mother, who was divorced at the time, which was unique for that time frame.

And their little stepbrother, they grew up in a tiny worker's house. And they already offered shelter to German Jewish refugees in 1934. So that is actually six years before the beginning of the war. So that's how it started with these girls. And then gradually from smaller things, they joined the arms resistance in 1943. What did they do in the resistance? Well, they started out small, like Honey started in Amsterdam when she was studying.

So she would go to, also in Haarlem, when she was still living with her parents, she would go into all kinds of public places, like theatres and swimming pools, and she would steal identification papers for Jewish people in hiding. So she would give these identification papers to the resistance and they would forge them and make sure that her Jewish friends would get those papers. would get those papers. And yeah, it really started with small acts. Also, when Jews were not allowed in parks anymore,

Honey was very fierce about that. And she said, well, if they are not allowed to go through the park anymore, I won't either. And then she still was studying law. But then in February 1943, all students at the Dutch universities had to sign a declaration of loyalty. And that meant that they had to be loyal to the German regime. And that was way too far for Hany. So she did not sign. And that meant that she could not study anymore,

so she moved back to Haarlem with her parents. Then she really wanted to do more than just the identification papers. She really wanted to offer armed resistance. So she told people around her, okay, I want to do more, I want to resist more, if necessary, with weapons. That was the summer of 1943. And then she registered with the Council of Resistance. And that is the Dutch group, or the resistance group in Haarlem, where Klus and Freddy were already members. And that's where they all met?

That's where they all met, yes. But what did they do to resist? Well, they would provide Jewish children, for example, with safe houses, so they would really bring them from one safe house to another. And because they were women, they were not very suspicious at all. So they could easily ride around town on their bicycles with Jewish children on the back and bring them to safe places, for example. But other things, they would blow up railway tracks with dynamite. And then later on, it was the really heavier stuff is that they would actually dress up nicely. They would wear makeup, very heavy makeup. And they would pretend to be so-called moffen girls is what we would call them in Dutch.

In English, you would say kraut girls, kraut from the German sauerkraut. And those were girls who had relationships with German officers, for example. So they would just pretend to be these girls, dress up with lots of makeup, and then go into bars, pick up these high-ranking Nazi officers, lure them into the woods

here in the city forest of Haarlem in order for them to get killed by the commander of their resistance group the council of resistance and later on they themselves would shoot Nazi targets on several occasions often riding their bicycles and liquidating or killing them. That is extraordinary. It sounds extremely dangerous. Did they come up with that? Or was it a common practice at the time? Was it a tactic employed by the Dutch resistance? Well, they didn't themselves come up with it.

I mean, it was part of their resistant uh resistance group and the the strategy uh the council of resistance so the the resistance group that they belong to consisted of um approximately seven main members and sometimes they would cooperate with other regional groups um and these three girls were the only women in the group. The commander of the group was called Frans van der Wiel. And he deliberately put these three girls on this task of the seducing part and then the killing part. Because, well, they could really use their youth and their femininity and their sexuality in their advantage and really in order to get these Nazi targets. How many times did they kill German officers?

How many people did they kill? Well, we don't know the exact number. They never revealed the exact number. And well, Truss, for example, Truus and Freddie both survived the war, and I personally knew them for 20 years. So I talked quite a bit with them. But they described the missions, but they never revealed the number. Truus always said, well, it was already bad enough that we had to do it in the first place. It's not important what the number is. And Freddie was always very fierce. And she said, well, we were soldiers. And you cannot ask a soldier that question. And we were

soldiers, little ones, but they were. So we don't know the exact numbers. But of course, I mean, they were terrified at the beginning and extremely nervous. And yeah, they really had to shoot someone. I mean, nobody is born to kill. You said you knew them. Were they proud of what they did? Yes, obviously they were proud, but they were extremely down to earth in the sense that they didn't see themselves as heroines at all. They really saw this as the only way of achieving justice. So really, in order to live up to their ideal of a livable world,

yeah, they really had to shoot to take out these Nazi targets and traitors. And yeah, because it had to be done that's what that's why they did it um and they never that's really the admirable part that they never saw themselves as heroines so that's really really something did they ever did they get away with it did they did they come under suspicion um because, well, of course they were women and they were not that suspicious. But nevertheless, in the beginning, actually, when the three girls met, Truus and Freddie actually had fled to the eastern part of the country in the Netherlands, to Enschede, to the eastern part of the country in the Netherlands to Enschede, because they were wanted in the area of Haarlem, because their profile was known. I mean, of course, it wasn't

the days with internet or anything, but they had been seen, so they had to flee. And they were working as nurses in a hospital in Enschede at the the time and then when honey joined um the council of resistance her assignment um was to actually go meet these girls um because frans van der riel the commander thought okay these three girls will make a great team because they it was it's really interesting they were uh three girls from completely different backgrounds and completely different characters. Honey was the intellectual and a bit chaotic. And Therese was very down to earth and kind of a tomboy and a natural leader. And, well, Freddie, she was still so but and very feminine and really fierce as well so

it's really three completely different girls but they yeah they they made a a great team um honey schaft had beautiful red hair she was really known as the girl with the red hair also to the germans and then so one point, she dyed her hair black, and she would wear glasses made out of window glass. So they would really have to disguise themselves, because it was extremely dangerous. They carried out quite a few missions, and before they would shoot their targets, they would really try to get as much information from them as possible and pass that on to the resistance, of course, in order to save lives.

land a viking longship on island shores scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in renaissance florence each week on echoes of history we uncover the epic stories that inspire assassin's creed we're stepping into feudal japan in our special series chasing shadows where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. Was it known that women were shooting German officers? Well, yes. At one point, gradually, it was known. And Hanne Schaft, I mean, the Germans also called her really the girl with the red hair. They thought that she was really a terrorist.

And they knew that she was working together with these two other girls. So yes, they were really wanted in the area, yes. Did all three of them survive the war? No, Truus and Freddy did. But unfortunately, Hann Hannischraft was arrested and she was executed by the Nazis not even three weeks before the end of the war. So that is a very horrible story. She was arrested at the regular checkpoint

and then she was riding her bicycle and she had to open the bag on the back of her bicycle and then the German soldiers discovered illegal newspapers. So that's actually the reason why she was arrested at the time. The Germans had no idea who she was. And then she was brought in for questioning and she had to open up her purse. And then the Germans discovered that she had a gun in her purse. And then they were starting to think and then they discovered her red roots coming out of her black, her dyed black hair. So they thought, oh, this is the girl with the red hair, the girl that we've been looking for for so long. And yeah, that's why she was executed.

Wow. So she was that notorious? Yes, yes. She was very notorious. And actually, well, it was only three weeks before the end of the war and both allies and the Germans had agreed on not shooting anyone anymore, in particular women. But yeah, unfortunately, none of the parties would stick to that agreement. And yeah, sadly enough, Honi was executed. What about the other two? What were their experiences like after the war? Were they traumatized by what they'd been through, what they'd done?

And also, how were they treated? Yeah, well, Honieschacht, when she was executed after that, she became the icon of female resistance. So she became really famous. Everybody in the Netherlands knows who she is. Really an icon like Anne Frank. she is, really an icon like Anne Frank. Truss and Tredi survived the war, but they really had to fight for recognition. And that was partially because they were women and the role of women was underestimated and

really thought that women are not capable of killing, let alone in an organized resistance group. So, yeah, they were a little bit bitter about that, especially Freddy could be really fierce about that. And then there was also another part that the Council of Resistance, their resistance group, consisted of several communist members. group consisted of several communist members. So especially in the Cold War, that was politically very sensitive. And both sisters have actually been shot at in 1951. They were unharmed, luckily.

But so years after the war, they were actually being shot at because of their communist or their ties to this resistance group that had had communist members. So they had to really fight for recognition. And well, they received finally in 2014, so decades later, they received a war distinction cross by our prime minister, Mark Rutte. But yeah, really extremely late. Dries was always, well, like I said, very down to earth. And she would really tell our prime minister, well, Mark, you were really kind of late with this. She could really get away with that. But they did get the recognition in the end.

And Freddie was always, well, she lived a more secluded life, really focusing on her family. That was her way of dealing with the war. And, yeah, she was bitter about not getting the recognition. And then when Freddie died last year in September 2018, yeah, especially the American media really picked up on that. And she became really famous then. But yeah, during her life, she really lacked the recognition that she was looking for.

Like you said, they were bitter, but they were, of course, extremely traumatized. Because they did shoot people after all. It's a huge dilemma. I mean, even though these were major war criminals, they were extremely young. And they shot people. They took people's lives. Fathers of children and mothers of children, because they also shot some women. And they had nightmares and depression.

And every year around our liberation day, May 5th, they would always have extremely bad nightmares. day may 5th they would always have extremely bad nightmares truce actually went to an institution for a while and freddie never or hardly ever spoke about the war she was only opening up yeah the the last years of her life so nightmares depression and what we would nowadays call PTSD was really part of their lives. But they never expressed any regret to you? No, no, never. No, they never regretted what they did. They were always very fierce about, yeah, that they really believed that this was the only way. There was no functioning judicial system for them. This was the only way to achieve justice well sophie thank you very much that was a truly remarkable story what is the book called the book is called seducing and killing nazis uh honey truce and freddy dutch resistance heroines of world war ii

so you can't miss the title seduceducing and Killing Nazis. And that's because of their particular strategy. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for having me. I feel we have the history on our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone. And finished. And liquidated. One child, one teacher, one book book and one pen can change the world.

He tells us what is possible, not just in the pages of history books, but in our own lives as well. I have faith in you. Hope you enjoyed the podcast. Just before you go, bit of a favour to ask. I totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money.

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