Dan Snow's History Hit - Sharpe is Back! Bernard Cornwell

Episode Date: October 24, 2021

Watch out loyal servants of Napoleon, Sharpe is back! In this episode, Dan sits down with legendary author Bernard Cornwell to discuss the return of his most famous and loved character. Dan asks Bernard all the big questions and discovers how Sharpe originated from adversity, where his love of the Napoleonic period came from, what he thought of the TV adaptation and what else lies in store for his venerable hero.

Some things just take too long. A meeting that could have been an email, someone explaining crypto, or switching mobile providers. Except with Fizz. Switching to Fizz is quick and easy. Mobile plans start at $17 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. Hi everybody. Welcome to Dan Snow's History. Richard Sharp is back. Ansono's history here. Richard Sharp is back. Loyal subjects of Emperor Bonaparte, beware. It's always a great pleasure talking to Bernard Coleman on this podcast. He's a best-selling author. He's sold millions of books. He has enthralled generations with his Sharp novels, his other historical novels, and he's written a non-fiction book on Waterloo. So he's become,

in the course of his long career, something of an expert in his own right. It's always lovely to catch up with him, to hang out with him, particularly now because he's brought back his most famous hero, Sharp, after a 15, 20 year absence. Richard Sharp and Patrick Harper march again. In this episode, I was able to ask all the questions I've always wanted to ask about Richard Sharp, where he came from. Does he actually have a Yorkshire accent, or is that just Sean Bean? And what he thought about the TV adaptations. And I remember when I was a kid, my librarian at school recommended

I might like to read this book about Sharp because I liked history. I sat down, and obviously from there, aged 15, 16, read them all. And I never believed that one day I'd have a job which involved meeting up with Bernard Cornwall, drinking whiskey, chatting about Sharp, having a laugh, and broadcasting that conversation to you listening to this podcast. As I've said before many times on this podcast, thank you very much indeed. People often say when they bump into me in the street and they say, I hope you know how lucky you are. And I say, you're damn right I do. I'm very, very lucky indeed.

Not a day goes by when I don't give thanks for all the great fun that I'm having. And particularly on days, like I say, when I get to hang out with people like Bernard. Sip in some Jamesons talking about early 19th century infantry tactics. There we go. What a life. If you love Napoleonic history, then this week obviously is big week. It's Trafalgar week. So we've got our Trafalgar offer running on History Hit TV. You just go to historyhit.tv, historyhit.tv, use the code TRAFALGAR, and for the first three months,

you only pay 50% of the subscription. I mean, it's a tiddly amount of money. It's a tiny amount of money. Think of it as a littleMS Pickle, a little sloop galloping around the battlefield of Trafalgar, taking Collingwood's instructions around all the big ships after guns had ceased firing. Little HMS Pickle is the equivalent of your mini subscription to History. I'm not sure that metaphor works, but let's go with it. So head over to history.tv, use the code Trafalgar. You can watch my new show about nelson's navy you can listen to these podcasts we have the ads and you can have a brilliant time binging all our other napoleonic content like the waterloo program austerlitz the story of the haitian revolution it's all there

but in the meantime here is the legendary bernard cornwall enjoy Enjoy. Don, good to see you again. Nice to see you, Dan. Sharp is back. He is. Do you think you're going to resurrect him? I always thought I would. I always threatened that that would be my retirement project.

So officially, I've retired. Well, I don't believe that for a second. No, I haven't. Right, exactly. Although I'm a bit worried. Uhtred and Sharp now look like they're both easing into comfortable retirement. Well, they deserve it. Well, they do.

But I mean... They've had a long... But we deserve for them to keep going. And I'm sorry. Well, I think... Well, certainly Sharp will keep going. I think there'll be another Sharp at least. I've talked to you so many times about other books and projects. We've never had a chat about Sharp.

Where did he begin, Richard Sharp? How was he born? He was born because when I was a kid, I loved Hornblower. And I read all the Hornblower books. And I can remember reading the last one, I think Hornblower and the Atropos, sometime when I was around 15 or 14. And there was suddenly no more to read. And so I went to the school library and found the nonfiction books on the Napoleonic Wars. And as I read them, I thought, wow, the army is just as exciting as the Navy. And I spent the next sort of 15, 20 years haunting bookshops, looking for what

eventually became the sharp series. And he, someone must write this. And meanwhile, you know, there were the Belitho stories and the Ramage stories. And I thought all these guys are making money writing about the Navy, fighting Napoleon. Why isn't anybody doing the army? And then when life kicked me hard, and I had to find a way of earning a living, I thought, well, let's do it. You were denied a job in America? I was denied a work permit, a green card. And I'd fallen in love with an American

who I married 41 years ago tomorrow. And I simply had to earn a living. And I'd fallen in love with an American who I married 41 years ago tomorrow. And I simply had to earn a living. And I said to her, don't worry, darling, I'll write a book. And that was the first sharp. And I'm still writing sharp 41 years later. Now, I, like all keen, sharp, like all sharp-eyed observers, I was trying to work out chronology and whether you'd tie yourself in knots in previous books that you had to try and undo. Does everything work? Did you always leave it open that you'd be able to slot this one in? No. There are two or three gaps in his career that could be usefully filled. So I'm looking at those gaps. But I mean, originally,

I wrote a series that ran from Talavera in 1809 to Waterloo. And just as I finished Waterloo, along came Sean Bean and the television. And there was plainly an appetite for more sharp. So I wrote a second series, which started earlier. And I like to claim that they dovetail neatly together. They don't. I mean, they're clobbered together.

I mean, I remember inbered together I mean I remember in the first series the original 10 11 books I always said that sharp learned to read when he was in the prison at sering-apatam well then I came to write the story of sering-apatam and I worked out he was actually in prison for three days he is on day learning. He is. On day one, he was doing C is for cat. And by day three, he was reading Voltaire. But it's one of the chapters I'm proudest of. I think it's chapter five of Sharp's Tiger, because you get the impression during the first two pages, a lot of time is passing. In fact, it's only three days. One of your breeding ones is Trafalgar, which I was a big fan of. I was like, I cannot believe it. He's going to hit the

bus Trafalgar when he sails home. Brilliant. Well, I mean, again, I worked out he was going home about then and he would literally pass Cape Trafalgar. So why not? Why not? And actually at heart, you're a sailor. Well, at heart, I'm a sailor, yes. Sharp isn't. No, but the soaring prose when he gets on board a ship is a glorious thing.

Well, I found that also with Uhtred. Whenever an Uhtred book was beginning to sag a bit, I'd let him go to sea and it would immediately pick up. Exactly. We can all feel it. You once told me, now you're in love with, is it Kynwin in the King Arthur trilogy? Very like your wife, I'm sure.

But in all the Sharp heroines, is it the Spanish gorilla that you fell in love with when you were writing her? I fall in love with all of them. There's no point in having them if you don't. You know, I'm very good to Sharp. I've given him a lot of very beautiful women. I think my favourite heroine, which is rather sad, was Lady Grace in Trafalgar.

But I realise that because she's not mentioned in any of the other books, she has to die. And it's sad. So he leaves a succession of dead women behind him because of the other books. He has to die. And it's sad. So he leaves a succession of dead women behind him because of the second series. Yeah, you tied yourself in the knots. This book starts very powerfully on the field of Waterloo. So it's almost seconds after the end of Sharp's Waterloo. There's something about that battle. When you're writing about that, it feels that you are the master of all you survey. Well, it's an that battle. When you're writing about that, it feels that you are the master

all you survey. Well, it's an extraordinary battle. And I mean, I wrote my only nonfiction book about the battle. And the glorious thing about Waterloo from a writer's point of view is that the plot is just given to you. I mean, it's the most dramatic battle. I mean, at 8.30 that night, you still don't know who's going to win. Well, we do, of course. But if you were there, you wouldn't know. I mean, Napoleon still has a chance. And he throws in the Imperial Guard, the undefeated Imperial Guard, and pushes them up that slope. It's an extraordinarily dramatic moment. And it's an extraordinarily horrible battle. I mean, a ghastly battle. And there's a line in this book which I really liked, which sums up,

and in a way it sums up the kind of current problems we have thinking about history and empire and these people are imperialists and they're enslaved. You talk about how the imperial guard came up that slope and they were thrown back down by the dregs of the slums of England and the port towns of Scotland and Wales. And there's a great pride there, whilst also acknowledging the horror of that battle and the craziness of the situation that so many of them found themselves in.

I think you can't ever read that battle or read about that battle without having a huge admiration for the British infantry. And Wellington himself said it, that, you know, he said it was the infantry that always got him out of trouble. I know, he said it was the infantry that always got him out of trouble. I mean, he said some very rude things about them as well. I mean, when he called them the scum of the earth, he had good reason, but he said far more complimentary things about them. And he himself ascribed the victory to the British infantry, of which he had too few. Although, in fact, the Dutch-Belgian troops fought very well as well. And yes, I mean, it was the pride of the French army coming up against the county regiments of England,

and the county regiments won. And I detected as someone who has lived in America for now decades, that felt like it was important to you, that heritage. Yes, and i mean i i feel that i've lived through the war and certainly lived through waterloo i've written two books on it and yeah i'm very proud of it and very proud of wellington you listen to dan snow's history i'm talking to bernard cornwall about sharp More coming up. our modern world. I'm your host, James Rogers, and each week, twice a week, I team up with fellow historians, military veterans, journalists, and experts from around the world to bring you inspiring leaders. If the crossroads had fallen, then what Napoleon would have achieved is he would have severed the communications between the Allied force and the Prussian force, and there wouldn't

have been a Waterloo. It would have been as simple as that. Revolutionary technologies. By the time the weapons were tested, there was this perception of great risk and great fear during the arms race that meant that these countries disregarded these communities' health and well-being to pursue nuclear weapons instead. And war-defining strategies. It's as though the world is incapable of finding a moderate, light presence. It always wants to either swamp the place in trillion-dollar wars, or it wants to have nothing at all to do with it.

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and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. Now that you've become something of an expert, because you've written a non-fiction book, you've written so many books, are there bits of the early books, and you're like, oh, that's embarrassing, Sharp's Rifles, where did you get things wrong? Well, I'm sure I've got things wrong. I mean, you can't write 21 books, or is it 22 now,

without getting some things wrong. But no, there's nothing I'd rewrite, except I wouldn't say that Sharp learned to read in the jail at Serangapitam, maybe. That's the only one thing. Has Sharp changed as you've changed? a patan baby. That's the only one thing. Has Sharp changed as you've changed? I think he must have done, yes. I mean, he had a huge chip on his shoulder at the beginning, and a bit of that is still there, but it's been worn smooth. I mean, he's very confident as a senior officer. He knows what he's doing. And in that sense, he's like Wellington. He knows exactly what he's doing and what needs to be done. And will do it. Is he also like the author?

Oh, Lord, no. No, nothing like. In this book, you talk about the capture of Paris. This gives you an opportunity to use your gag about the capture of Paris, which I think is one of the best gags I've ever heard. That is usable in polite company. Well, yes. I mean, in fact, Paris officially surrendered on the 4th of July. And I'm very grateful to my new countrymen for celebrating it every year. And in fact, I'm not sure it was on

the 4th. I think it was officially signed on the 7th. But the British usually say that they entered on the 4th of July. And Sharp, of course, is one of the first to enter. There's a quite interesting bit about the restoration of art I thought was fascinating. And you make the point that we talk a lot about the Monuments Men in World War II, which about stealing Europe's art collections and stealing it from the Jews. Tell me, was Napoleon doing the same thing? He was gathering all the art in the world? Deliberately. I mean, he gave orders that all the great treasures of Italy were to be taken to Paris. And then he did the same in Prussia wherever he went but I mean he had whole units that were going around with wagons taking down the great artworks and they were all taken to Paris and the Louvre was renamed the Musée

Napoleon and the Allies swore to return it all which they did in the end or most of it. swore to return it all, which they did in the end, or most of it. One or two paintings remained. I think they still have the wedding at Cana in the Louvre, which they stole from Italy. But almost all of them were returned. I mean, it was literally thousands of paintings, sculptures. I mean, it was the artworks of Europe. The treasures of Europe were all taken to Paris. And the Parisians got very upset because they thought they deserved them, they should have them, but then they all went back. And that was something that Wellington personally... Yes, oh yes, very much so, supervised and arranged. I mean, the four great horses from

St. Mark's were taken, and they were put up on top of the first Arc de Triomphe, not the one in the Champs-Élysées, but one opposite the Louvre. And they had to be taken down. And I mean, each one weighs two or three tons and returned to St. Mark's. Who in turn had stolen them from Constantinople? But there comes a limit to how far you can return this stuff. And the extent to which Napoleon still had the loyalty of some of his veterans and there was a fear about violence.

Well, there was some violence. I mean, the one that astonished me was the sort of reprise of the gunpowder plot. And they actually managed to stuff Wellington's house, the cellars, full of gunpowder. I mean, I use the event or I change it somewhat because I think, in fact, they'd actually managed to set fire to it, and they managed to extinguish the fire before it went out. So yes, there were at least two attempts on Wellington's life. The famous one, I can't

remember now the name of the Frenchman who shot at him, and he was put in prison. And Napoleon, in his will, left the man 10,000 francs, which I thought was a bit nasty. And so that strange atmosphere in Paris must have been quite fun to write about. It's the enemy's capital, it's an occupied city, but you don't know if you can trust the loyalty of the civilians. There was a lot of resentment, as you can imagine, because suddenly your city is under occupation by British and Prussian troops, and the Russians and others are yet to come. There's an event I left out when the Russians arrived, which is sort of after the events of Sharpe's assassin. They gave orders that the

Pont d'Austerlitz be blown up. And Wellington just thought this was a nonsense. I mean, what's the point of blowing up a bridge just because it celebrates a victory over your country? And bridges are useful things. So he gave orders that one red coat was to stand guard on the bridge, in the centre of the bridge, and he told the Russians if one British soldier is injured, it will be war. And they sent their senior officers to order the red coat off, who stoically answered, I'm waiting for orders from my corporal. And the corporal never gave him orders, so he stayed there

and the bridge is still there to this day. It must have been extraordinary, the competing powers in Paris at that time. Yes. And what they all noticed, what the Parisians noticed, is that all the other powers, the Prussians, the Russians, the Austrians, were festooned with medals and the British soldiers didn't have any because they didn't really use medals at all. I think the first general medal given to the army was the Waterloo Medal, and it hadn't been struck then. That's right. And you mention that in the book.

You say it might be good to give these lads a medal. Yeah. They do, in the end, get one. And then what's, I mean, am I allowed to ask what's next then? Are there plans? Well, I think I so enjoyed being with Sharp again that I think we might stay with him for a bit, although I'm going to take him back to the beginning of the Peninsula War.

Oh, insert. We're one of the gapsides. So he'll be back to being a very junior lieutenant and probably still very angry. Might there be another go at doing TV about Sharp? There's talk of it, but I don't know whether it'll happen or not. I mean, one, I think Sean Bean was the perfect Sharp, and I can't quite imagine another actor doing it although maybe they'd be just as good who knows but I loved Sean Bean's depiction of Sharp and I still to this day when I'm writing Sharp I hear Sean's voice. Oh do you? I mean he really was the perfect Sharp. Wasn't

there some question about whether Sharp was born in London or? Oh yes. You've moved him around have you moved him around a bit? Well, even in the early books, I always say, did you join the army in Yorkshire? So there's a Yorkshire connection, which I think, you know. And who cares? Who cares? I think the other thing is that there's no way of getting around the scale of Sharp.

You know, it's a thin red line. It's the extent of these armies in the age of musket. It's quite hard to pick without it getting pretty expensive. Exactly, yes. There is CGI. CGI is horribly expensive too. I mean, when they made the original series, they used the Ukrainian army, which is evidently quite cheap to hire in case you ever want to hire an army. But, you know, it's still very expensive. You have to hire them and feed them and everything else. And I think they did a magnificent job. I always say that they have different constraints I mean if I'm writing a sharp book and I feel the story is flagging I can wheel on 40,000 Frenchmen and have Sharp defeat them but if

you're making a film you can't you know you just simply can't afford 40,000 extras so the usual answer is to bring on a rather more beautiful heroine than usual. Why do you think we're so drawn to that period? Why aren't there War of Spanish Succession sharps knocking about? That's a lovely question. I don't know. I suppose, you know, why do we have a Trafalgar Square and a Waterloo station? Because it was a, I'm not going to say it was a high moment in our history, but it's certainly a moment where an immense amount of pride was caused by it.

And I think it's simply that. I think it's just that once we were good. Now, we've got some questions from our fans, your fans. These are drawn from a range of fans who are all very excited that you have written Sharpie. What is the weirdest place you've done a book tour or where your books are sold well and you've gone and done an appearance there? Probably Rio de Janeiro, which was wonderful, absolutely wonderful. I mean, for some strange reason, the Brazilians are very, very fond of Bernard Cornwall's books.

And I like to say I hold the record for an elderly British male being kissed by young Brazilian girls. It wasn't a bad experience. Do you show anyone your sharp manuscripts before they're sent to the publisher? Yeah, my wife. Judy's not really that keen on warfare and military history. And I heard a friend of hers say, "'Do you read Bernard's books?'

And she said, "'I skip the battles,' and I shouted out, "'It's a bloody quick read, darling, isn't it?' But she does read them loyally. And she gives good advice? Yeah. If she says, I didn't understand that, I'll go back and look at it. So, yes. Well, I think I know the answer to this, but Sharp or Napoleon,

who would you rather fight for? Oh, Sharp. He's careful with the lives of his men. Yes, unlike Napoleon. Okay, this is the big one that we need to get to the bottom of. Could an infantryman carry a musket fire three rounds a minute? Yes. John Moore, when he was a lieutenant, fired a musket five times in a minute.

But the British, yes, they could do three shots in a minute. What about riflemen? No, riflemen couldn't. Is that because you have to wrap the ball? You have to wrap the ball. It's really hard to push it down the barrel. What they could do, they could do what they call tap load. I mean, if they were under really severe pressure, they would just put the ball in the rifle and hammer it in the bottom and fire it. And then you're getting up to three shots a minute. But

of course, you lost a lot of accuracy that way. But tap loading was quite common. But the idea was that the accuracy of the rifle at longer ranges was a very potent weapon. Very potent, yes. And the French hated them. And for some strange reason, The idea was that the accuracy of the rifle at longer ranges was a very potent weapon on the battlefield. Very potent, yes. And the French hated them. And for some strange reason, the French never adopted the rifle. Although there is some evidence that there were some rifles around, but they never deployed them on the battlefield the way the British did.

Do you know, apparently, which Bond actor appears in the Sharp series? Daniel Craig. You certainly do know. If you could go for a pint with Sharp, I don't know, this is a weird one, because presumably Sharp lives in your head. If you go for a pint with Sharp, what would you ask him? To forgive me, probably. For beating him up a lot, sending him a lot of campaigns. If you could be a fly on the wall at any event in history, what would it be and why? Well, there's two. I mean, one, I actually would quite like to be a fly on the wall at Waterloo.

There are still so many questions, and it would be nice to be there to answer them, but I want some kind of guarantee from the people who send me back that they're going to keep me alive. But I certainly would quite like to see Waterloo. What particular question do you want answered there? Well, what time did it start? Yes, good one. It would be a very good one.

And the other one is what formation did the Imperial Guard use yes attack was it a column or was it square i've read a lot of tiresome things about that yeah it's very tiresome but i think if i had a choice for one event i want to go back to the premiere the first performance of hamlet of the globe oh of course your first love tre. Treading the balls in Shakespeare. Yeah, see Shakespeare himself come on as the ghost. And we know he did that, do we? Yeah, we know he played the ghost, yes. We know quite a lot of it. He played Peter Quince in The Dream, the ghost. But I would really love to be there for one of them. I don't care really which one, but Hamlet would be pretty good.

Is your reluctant gift that you can write so beautifully about fighting and secretly all you want to do is write about Shakespeare? No, I'm quite happy writing what I write. Okay, here we go. So I don't know if you watch Game of Thrones. Ned Stark versus Sharp, who would win a fight? Oh, Sharp, he's got a rifle. Okay, this is a good one. In Wellington's army, would you rather be a cavalryman, infantryman or artilleryman? Oh, infantry. Even though it's a dangerous business. They're all dangerous.

Yeah. How many more Sharp novels do you think we're going to be lucky enough to get? At a guess, three. Three more? That's a guess. Might be four, it might be one, might be none. What's been so fascinating about your career? You've jumped around doing different things and are you locked and shut from the future or do you think

you'll be gifting us with another period of different characters? I hope so. Okay. I mean, I'm not dead yet. Wow. I feel like it sometimes

but I'm not there yet. Busy man, that pen, that word process is going to be smoking. I hope so. We hope so too. Thank you very much,

Bernard Cole. Thank you, Dan. I feel we have the history on our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone and finished. Thanks, folks, for listening to this episode of Dan's Science History. As I say all the time, I love doing these podcasts. They are the best thing I do professionally.

I feel very lucky to have you listening to them. If you fancied giving them a rating and review, obviously the best rating review possible would be ideal. It makes a big difference to us. I know it's a pain, but we'd really, really be grateful. And if you want to listen to the other podcasts in our ever-increasing stable, don't forget we've got Susanna Lipscomb with Not Just the Tudors, that's flying high in the charts. We've got our Medieval podcast, Gone Medieval, the brilliant Matt Lewis and Kat Jarman. We've got the Ancients with our very own Tristan Hughes. And we've got Warfare as well, dealing with all things military.

Please go and check those out. Ready to get your pods. Some things just take too long. A meeting that could have been an email, someone explaining crypto, or switching mobile providers. Except with Fizz. Switching to Fizz is quick and easy.

Mobile plans start at $17 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca.