Dan Snow's History Hit - The Amelia Earhart Mystery Solved?

Episode Date: March 31, 2024

What happened to the pioneering pilot, Amelia Earhart? In 1937, while attempting to circumnavigate the globe by aircraft, Earhart and her navigator went missing. Some 87 years later, new evidence has emerged - a grainy image of what looks like a plane, thousands of feet below the surface of the Pacific Ocean.To talk about Earhart and this discovery, Dan is joined by the aptly named Amelia Rose Earhart, a pilot and former reporter. Could this be Amelia Earhart's missing aircraft and the end to one of history's most enduring mysteries?Produced by Mariana Des Forges and edited by Dougal Patmore.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Get a subscription for £1 per month for 3 months with code DANSNOW sign up at https://historyhit/subscription/.We'd love to hear from you- what do you want to hear an episode on? You can email the podcast at [e-mail] can take part in our listener survey here.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. It's a grainy image from thousands of feet below the surface of the Pacific Ocean, deeper than the Titanic. It looks like an aircraft. Wings, a tail, fins. Could it be the missing aircraft of one of history's most enduring mysteries, the loss at sea of the pilot Amelia Earhart. Amelia Earhart was a pioneer of aviation, a pioneer of women's rights in the 1920s and 30s. She had a number of aviation firsts to her name and in in 1937, she planned her most ambitious flight yet, her last flight, covering nearly 30,000 miles. This would be a circumnavigation of the globe. So famous was she, so celebrated, that the US government spent huge amounts of money sending warships to strategic points along the journey,

even building a runway in the South Pacific for her on an island. She almost made it, with 22,000 miles completed and about three legs left from Papua New Guinea to the South Pacific, from the South Pacific to Honolulu on Hawaii, and then back to the American West Coast. Pacific, from the South Pacific to Honolulu on Hawaii, and then back to the American West Coast. But she never landed on Howland Island, the South Pacific island that she'd identified as the place to rest and refuel. She'd set off on July 2nd, 1937, at 10 in the morning from Papua New Guinea on a 2,000 mile leg, which would take them to Howland Island. But she never arrived. Her disappearance caused consternation at the time.

The US government went to extraordinary lengths to try and locate her or the wreckage of the aircraft. And it has been an enduring mystery ever since. Conspiracy theories have flourished. ever since. Conspiracy theories have flourished. Some say that she lived out her days marooned on a tiny scrap of atoll in the South Pacific. Others say that she was taken prisoner by the Japanese when she landed on a Japanese-controlled island. This new piece of evidence, just published, suggests that she simply ran out of fuel and crashed into the ocean. The explorer Tony Romeo, the CEO of Deep Sea Vision, thinks he has enough evidence now to go back and launch a more sustained search of the seabed. He has this sonar image taken around 100 miles offshore

from Howland Island and now the expedition is heading back out to try and solve this 87-year-old mystery. While we wait with bated breath for news, I'm going to talk to a very special contributor indeed. She is a pilot herself, she has flown around the world, inspired by Amelia Earhart, and she works to provide scholarships to girls to introduce them to aviation as well. Most remarkably of all, she is called Amelia Earhart. She is Amelia Rose Earhart, named by her parents, who were great Amelia Earhart fans, and she must have made all their dreams come true when she didn't just grow into that grand name but emulated her illustrious forebear and led a pioneering circumnavigation of the globe it's great to have amelia erhart on the podcast enjoy

t-minus 10 atomic bombs dropped on hiroshima god save the king no black white unity till Amelia, thanks so much for coming back on the show. Good to see you, Dan. Blue skies. Blue skies indeed. Let's come to the exciting, well, potentially exciting discoveries in a second. But I want you just to talk to me about, well, potentially exciting discoveries in a second. But I want you just to talk to me about Amelia, why we're still fascinated by this story. Tell me about her upbringing. She was born in 1897. Was she born into a family of, well, I guess they weren't really aviators in that period, but were they fascinated by travel, by adventure and innovation? You know, it seems like Amelia's family was one that provided her with a

lot of opportunities in life. They moved all around. She was born in Atchison, Kansas, but it was when she moved to California in her early 20s, I believe, that she took her first flight lesson. And I think it was her parents who afforded her that ability to do something so extravagant back in the 1930s. So the exposure to that type of activity is what got her into it. But then seems like she was the type of person that had that personality and drive to really be an adventurer

and be a game changer back in the 30s. And I think she was way ahead of her time. You know, a lot of people who've been talking about the recent possible discoveries of her airplane have compared her to Taylor Swift, saying that she was kind of the Taylor Swift of her time. Everyone wanted to know where she was, what she was wearing, what she was doing next. And I think that's true because she really was one of those women that was pushing boundaries in all directions. It sounds like her parents encouraged her as a kid to not see herself

any differently to her brothers, right? She went out hunting rats with rifles. She wasn't molly cuddled or denied things because she was a girl. No, she was wearing pants. She even was known to have built a roller coaster off the top of her house in Atchison, Kansas that went from the roof down onto the ground. So any parents that would allow that to happen, I think they're all for whatever your daughter's willing to get into. And so she did some schooling, but it was a bit patchy. During the First World War, she sort of served, but in Canada, right, as a nurse. Exactly. Yeah, Amelia had a lot of different interests in her time.

She was a social worker. She was a counselor at Purdue University. She was a fashion designer. She was designing luggage. I mean, she went in so many different directions. So aviation wasn't her only passion, but she certainly started out even working towards a pre-med degree, but eventually changed her course along the way and found her way into aviation. So, yeah, she found her way through a lot of different paths.

And as you said, I mean, she would have been around aircraft a bit during those sort of military adjacent roles as a nurse, but it was in, was it in California you said she took this flight? When was that? Yeah, she took her first flight. I want to say it was in her twenties. I don't know the exact year when she took it, but she was exposed to aviation and she had that immediate reaction kind of like I did after that first flight lesson of, oh my gosh, I have to do this as much as humanly possible. I mean, Amelia Earhart was even the first woman to pilot an auto gyro, which was an early form of a helicopter. So she was really, I think, in it for the right reasons. She was in it because she was pursuing that adventure and really trying to seek out as much

exposure to it as she possibly could because it seemed like she truly enjoyed it. But yeah, it was then in California that she got her start and she was getting a lot of attention, I think, because she represented something different for women back then in the 1930s, sort of a different version of what aviation could hold. I mean, it was a 10-minute flight initially, right? And then she just saved and scrimped and tried to buy her own plane. I mean, that's crazy. I guess you're living proof of this. Just some people just get the bug. Exactly. You get the bug. You kind of figure out whatever way you can get involved that you possibly can. I know that, yeah, she saved up for it. She eventually got sponsors on board to help with her flight around the world and some

of the other aviation activities she was involved in when she was riding as a passenger on her North Atlantic crossing. She was called Lady Lindy because she physically resembled Charles Lindbergh. So the more attention that she garnered while she was going through these early stages of her flight lessons, it seemed like people were cheering her on. And I think then she got more opportunities, more opportunities to get into bigger and better aircraft and eventually attempt that flight around the world. You know, you kind of said it there, but it's a reminder. This period is one of brand new technology, a lot of firsts, like first of flying across here, first flying across there. There were a lot of men doing technology, a lot of firsts, like first of flying across here,

first flying across there. There were a lot of men doing it, but there were some women. So there was an opportunity and it was kind of, I guess, a coming together of kind of a modern phenomenon, sponsorship, technology firms, challenges, the media. Like it seems to me like really just in the British press, there are all these challenges, who can fly across the channel first? Who could fly Japan first? Exactly. And there must have been something in those challenges that Amelia, in her forward thinking, was drawn to. I mean, back then, she was sort of rejecting social norms from early on. She was a big proponent of women doing what they wanted, regardless of gender. And that really

shows in how she pursued her goals. Because in her first North Atlantic crossing, like I said, she crossed as a passenger. But that wasn't good enough for Amelia. She wanted to pilot that aircraft. And eventually, when she did cross the North Atlantic Ocean in just about 14 hours, she actually broke other records. And I think was challenging those boundaries in a lot of different ways. And the attention that she garnered, I think, stuck. Because yes, there were other female pilots at the time, but Amelia seemed to have that really charismatic personality.

She was a little mysterious as well. She was known for sort of having this closed-mouth smile, sort of that mischievous look in her eye. But when she did show her big, whole smile, she had a big gap between her two front teeth. And when she really did, she just sort of had this enigmatic way about her that I think people were really drawn to. So Charles Lindbergh makes the first solo flight in 1927, and she makes the first female solo flights, well, just five years later, right? So she flies from Newfoundland to Northern Ireland, as you say, 14, 15 hours, extraordinary. What other records does she get? She becomes the first woman to fly coast to coast in the US? Yes.

She also flew from Oakland to Honolulu, making that attempt. Can you imagine flying back in the 1930s all the way to Hawaii over that expansive ocean? Like I said, she held the first record of a female flying that auto gyro, an early form of a helicopter. So she was really experimenting in a lot of different aspects of aviation. And the way that the public reacted to this was pretty extraordinary. She was the first person to receive two separate ticker tape parades in New York City, where the streets closed down and they're just completely celebrating her for these types of accomplishments. And if you can imagine what it would take to shut down New York City today,

right? It would take an absolutely monumental feat. So she truly was one of the biggest celebrities of her time. You're a pilot, so you can tell me this, because this is not sitting back and you mentioned that Honolulu flight. You're not sitting back and letting the autopilot do its thing. She had to be an engineer. She had to be a pilot. She had to be a navigator, right? It's mind-blowing how complicated that would have been. So incredibly complicated. I mean, we take flying for granted today. We've got autopilot, we've got synthetic vision, we've got so many different forms of navigation and communication. Well, in the 1930s, they were using celestial navigation, which means using a sextant,

which is sort of this protractor-looking device that would allow them to triangulate their position in space between a point on the horizon, a star, and then their particular location. So imagine trusting that to cross the ocean, searching for such a tiny little bit of land. I mean, it's even daunting for some folks to fly in a commercial flight to Honolulu today. So doing it in archaic aircraft like that, which was state-of-the-art for its time, must have been just so challenging. But she did it. And you know, the thing that I find fascinating about Amelia is that even though she had multiple attempts and even some failures, crashing an aircraft in Honolulu on her first attempt to fly over, she would start again. She wouldn't just throw the towel and say, you know what, this isn't for me.

You know, I'm fearful going forward. She would start from scratch and start over and in aviation that takes not only the enthusiasm and the commitment but it also takes a lot of money to do that so she clearly had the heart to really put into these journeys as you say these aircraft that appears primitive to us today i mean there's an open cockpit right so she's doing all this she's steering and then balancing the chart using the sextant all while the wind is whistling around her ears. She develops a line of aviation-inspired fashion. It's so Kardashian. It's crazy. Yeah. I know. I think about it. She was sort of an influencer way ahead of her time, right? She would have had a huge social media following today. But Amelia wanted to design clothing

for women who live an active lifestyle. So she wanted women to wear pants. She wanted them to feel comfortable, but also stylish at the same time. And Amelia was also her own model. So she was modeling her clothing and really living by example. And then the clothing line led into this beautiful line of luggage to really include women in the travel process and get them excited about going out on their own adventures, even if they weren't necessarily the pilot of their own aircraft. It's wild. Okay, so she is one of the most famous people in the world. I guess the danger of these things, you see it with these kind of adventure

people today, there always has to be another bigger and better challenge, right? So I guess there's one big obvious one that she's got left to do. Exactly. And that was her 1937 attempt of a flight around the world with her navigator, Fred Noonan. And their attempt was the second attempt. The first, she actually attempted to go westbound from Oakland to Honolulu. That's where they experienced their crash. They reformulated the flight, went back to the drawing board, and then made a second

attempt going eastbound because that's where the favorable wind and weather conditions were. And Amelia was known to have said right before this around-the-world attempt that this was going to be her last record-breaking mission. She was ready to sort of calm things down. She was 39 years old when she disappeared. She had just married George Putnam, which was her publicist and also one of the financiers as a part of her journey, putting together all these sponsorships. So she had just gotten married to him. And I believe that in her mind, she probably would have had this second phase of her life, coming back to maybe start a family, maybe go in a different direction.

But if she would have made it back from her around the world journey, and unfortunately she didn't, I think she would have maybe set out on different adventures outside of aviation. You listen to Dan Snow's History. We're talking to Amelia Earhart. We are. More coming up. I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Eleanor Janaga.

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by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. And was this the first circumnavigation of its kind? I mean, I know there'd been a US team effort that had gone around the world. What was special about this one? She was trying to be the first woman to be pilot in command of a flight around the world. So yes, there had been other attempts, but Amelia was trying to do it in this way that would really show women in aviation that the possibility was out there. She obviously had a lot of clout and a lot of recognition for her previous flights, but there's really nothing greater you can do than fly around the entire planet, especially

closer towards the dawn of aviation. So she really was ahead of her time there. But no, she was following in the footsteps of others who had attempted these other journeys. And this is not her just whizzing around the North Pole. This is not the short route. This is an equatorial route, right? This is 29,000 odd miles. Exactly. This was an equatorial route as wide as it possibly gets. She was flying on a Lockheed Electra 10E, which was this beautiful aluminum aircraft. It had twin engines, so an auxiliary fuel tank on board. So they could go between 4,500 miles and 5,000 nautical miles between having to refuel. But they would stop along the way, and they made it about 80% of the way around the world on their approach towards

Howland Island. They would have these celebratory visits with children and groups that would meet them and celebrate their arrival. And unfortunately, it ended after departing from Papua New Guinea, which was as they were about to venture into the most expansive stretch of the ocean across the South Pacific Ocean. Okay, so they're heading across the South Pacific, heading back to the Americas. They've started in Florida. So they are, wow, okay, so they're heading across the South Pacific, heading back to the Americas. They've started in Florida. So they are, wow, okay, so they're almost there. They're leaving Papua New Guinea, and they're trying to hit this thing called Howland Island? Yes. Howland Island is this tiny little island atoll.

It's fairly a speck in the ocean. And now that I've seen it with my own two eyes from 27,000 feet on my flight around the world, it was hard to find even in 2014 with modern day navigation. It is tiny. In fact, the entire acreage is only about 400 square acres. It's a mile and a half long and a half mile wide. It's never been inhabited by anybody, and it's got a lagoon in the middle. So prior to this flight around the world, the US government actually built a runway for Amelia and Fred to land on across Howland Island. They took a naval ship out there,

built this long runway for them to land on. And there was a naval ship waiting for their arrival. And in 1937, unfortunately, flying in the dark through stormy conditions using celestial navigation, they had actually removed part of their radio equipment before departing from Papua New Guinea. And in order to make that flight, I've heard rumors that they were trying to save weight on the aircraft to have as much fuel on board. Because when you're heading out to a really specific destination in the middle of the

ocean, where if you can't find your original aircraft, there aren't a lot of alternate airports to head to, you want to have as much fuel on board as possible. So by eliminating that radio equipment, those last few calls that we hear from Amelia and Fred coming in about searching for Itasca, which was their home base of the naval ship that was awaiting their calls, unfortunately never came through. And so many theories about her disappearance. And that's, of course, what we're talking about today. Okay. So yeah, talk to me about those last communications. It's July 2nd. So it's nighttime, is it? And so even though they maybe didn't have all their radio equipment, they had some and there were some messages received? Exactly. They were using various forms. They were using Morse code. They were using their radios.

And of course, the information about her flight comes from all these historic resources, the actual facts about Amelia's flight and the movies that have been made about her. We all sort of have this image of Amelia flying through the storms, searching for this island, making those last calls saying, come in, come in. Can you hear us? They're trying to hone in towards this Howland Island base. And they're circling around, making as many predictions as they can about where they may possibly be. But unless you have that visual line of sight to where you're headed, you're really using whatever information is at your fingertips. And there's also rumors that there may have been some conflict between her and her

navigator, Fred Noonan, that there may have been some challenges there in their communication and whether or not he was ready to show up for this section of the flight. And of course, I can't speak on that firsthand, but from the accounts that are said about their preparation, there may have been some outside stressors on top of the already stressful situation of trying to cross the South Pacific Ocean in 1937. So that's, yeah, it's not good for their relationship. They're stuck up there in their cockpit. It's terrible conditions. They can't see where they're supposed to land. And they've got no plan B, right? There are no other islands nearby. No plan B, no other islands nearby. In fact, Howland Island is, I want to say, about 1,600 nautical miles south of Honolulu. And once you get to that point of being near Howland Island, in the vicinity of it,

in order to just turn right back around and head back to Papua New Guinea, I believe they had passed their point of no return. And in aviation, the point of no return is this mathematical calculation that pilots have to make when we depart over an ocean. We have to calculate the point at which we can no longer, in the event of an engine failure, turn the plane back around and glide without power back to the original airport from which we departed.

So once you pass that point of no return, you have committed to get to your destination. So I could imagine that Amelia and Fred were probably circling until that fuel ran out, circling and trying to visually locate Howland Island. But now that I've seen it in broad daylight, like I said, tough to see if there was any cloud coverage at all. So to be able to spot it in darkness, when it's not like looking down on a cityscape as you're flying into a location in a commercial aircraft. Now we can almost spot our own homes now, right, from commercial airplanes. This was darkness. So the only light that they would have been able to spot was from

the naval ship and the runway lights that were waiting out there for them. And there's a, the Itasca radio log records the messages that were received. It says fuel running low. We cannot see you. Just must've been a terrifying last few moments in that aircraft. What do we know about what did happen? Well, what we know is that those last few radio calls sounded very desperate. You could hear the desperation and the fear in her voice. And the way that I believe the Lockheed Electra was set up was that Amelia was flying up in the cockpit and Fred was in the back of the plane using his information to sort of use a string line to actually send notes of their future navigation up to Amelia. So he would clip the note on the string, send it up to the front of the plane.

She would read it and then make those adjustments to where she was flying. So imagine piloting the aircraft, maintaining altitude, airspeed, and heading, right? Trying to find any sort of location about where you are, but then you're receiving new information, plus making those radio calls at the same time. And when I've listened to those radio calls in the past, it is a feeling of desperation. There's a feeling of, you want her to find it so badly. And just imagine that at some point, the fuel runs out. And when there's no land to land the aircraft on, you go down in the ocean. And that's one of the many theories, of course, that could lead up to the possible information about where Amelia actually ended up. But that's the theory for me that really has the most resonance, that searching for that island, you run out of

fuel and you go down in the ocean, which is about 16,000 feet deep in that part of the world. And you're a pilot. Would you have any ambition or attempt to glide in and land on that ocean, or is it just going to be a crash? Well, in modern day aircraft, when I did my flight around the world in a Pilatus PC-12NG, which is a state-of-the-art Swiss-built single-engine aircraft, you do have the option of ditching the aircraft. So you pitch to a certain glide ratio, you have certain configurations that you get into, and you plan to ditch the aircraft, open the door prior to that ditching so that then you can hop out, get in your raft, and wait to be rescued.

Back then, I'm not sure if the aircraft that they were using, the Lockheed Electra with that aluminum frame, would have sustained a ditching in the same way. The technology that's here today, of course, is a lot more rigid and a lot more structurally sound. But back then, an impact, especially in the dark, maybe not having as much technology with the rafts they were using, who knows? But no sort of raft has ever been found. basically show no sign of any material other than the tiny bits of leather and small bits of metal that may be linked to Amelia, but have never been definitively linked to the actual aircraft. The US government launched the largest air and sea rescue to that point in history. It was an incredible effort and nothing was found. There are, as you say, the theories. People think she

landed on an island and maybe died a castaway, or she was even interned by the Japanese landing on one of their islands. Yeah, there are so many theories about Amelia, and I'm not sure why she sparked so many of these theories. But because she was such a popular figure, I think just like today, everybody has their opinion on everything that happens in the news. But yeah, there are theories that she landed on Nicomororu, which was an adjacent island atoll. But then the question is, well, where's the

aircraft? There are theories that she was captured by the Japanese. There's even a theory that Amelia was brought back to the United States somehow and took on an alternate identity. None of those I've really ever bought into. And like I said, now that I've seen Howland Island with my own two eyes, I can see how hard it would have been to spot in 1937. So in my mind, it's the most likely result to what happened to Amelia Earhart. But now that this new information has come in, I'm just incredibly hopeful. And I think it's incredible that the Deep Sea Vision team is out there. And I wish them nothing but the best of luck because I hope Amelia's legacy and mystery is solved during my lifetime. It would bring a lot of closure to the name. Tell me about this new evidence, which suggests that she did just ditch in the sea. Yeah. So this new evidence,

which was so exciting, you know, when the news came out, I think I got a phone call or a text from every single person in my life being named after Amelia Earhart. Of course, everyone wanted to know, did you see the news? And yes, of course, I keep the Google alerts on for everything related to Amelia Earhart because as her namesake, who's not related to Amelia, but does share this common connection through her name and also being an around the world pilot, of course, it's fascinating. So when Deep Sea Vision and Tony Romeo and his team came out with this new information saying they're scanning the ocean floor and suddenly they find this anomaly, right? They show this shape that so definitively looks like an aircraft. I think we all just stopped in our tracks, right? This looks like an airplane.

But upon further investigation and further research, a lot of people are now showing that it does look like an aircraft, but it doesn't necessarily look like a Lockheed Electra because of the certain shape and the sweep of the wings. But we can get a little deeper into that. But this new information does give hope. I know that when that team goes back out there, I think they have that same sense of adventure in a way that Amelia did, right? Even though her adventure was piloting the aircraft, their version of adventure is searching for Amelia to close this loop and maybe solve one of the world's greatest mysteries. And how deep did you say this potential wreckage is? I want to say it's about 16,000 feet underwater.

So when the team heads back out there, they'll be bringing additional equipment to even get that far down in the ocean. It's deeper than the Titanic. So they've got quite a ways to go. But the shape of the plane that was identified, or what could be a plane by the deep-sea vision team, one of the big arguments that people are saying now is that, yes, while it does resemble the shape of an airplane, what you look at is on the wings. The wings of the Lockheed Electro were actually pretty straight across. But what looks in this radar

and sonar image is more of a swept wing, which is the wing sort of pushed back. And then also, we don't see those two big radial engines that were located on Amelia's plane. Those were also made of metal. So the question is, where did those go? Well, this doesn't dispel me from believing in this search continuing. My fingers are crossed that this is it because anything is possible at those depths of the ocean. But those are some of the arguments that some of the critics are saying, this may not be it. So I'm trying to listen to both sides

and really keep an open mind about all of it. We should finish by answering the question that everyone will have listening to this. You are called Amelia Earhart. You are a great aviator and explorer in your own right. But your parents didn't know that when they named you that, right your parents didn't know that when they named you that right you didn't change your name by deed poll this was the name you were given

and you've just grown into that name and become an aviation legend so how does that all work well Dan yes my parents named me Amelia Earhart it's been a bit of a burden especially through childhood I sort of had to grow into it as you can imagine But I think what it did was, from a very young age, it really allowed me to show up and answer the question of, what does Amelia Earhart mean to you? Now, when I was young, I would go to my parents and say, okay, we have the same last name. You named me Amelia Earhart. Are we related? And my parents initially thought that we were. I did a first genealogical search that showed that I shared a distant common relation to Amelia. But then right before my around the world journey, I learned that I was in no way related to Amelia Earhart. So I had a difficult decision to make. Do I keep pursuing this goal

of honoring Amelia through an around the world flight, which I had raised a ton of money to do, borrowed a four and a half million dollar aircraft and comprised a team of close to 100 people around the world, along with my co-pilot Shane Jordan, to make this flight come to life. I had to ask myself, even though I'm not related to Amelia, do I still want to do this journey? And the answer was yes. And that's because I love flying. I decided to instead relate to Amelia Earhart and the legacy that she set out towards in the 1930s and do it in my own modern day way. And the cool thing is when we circled over Holland Island 77 years after Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan's disappearance, we handed out scholarships to young girls, 16 to 18,

all across the US who earned scholarships to learn how to fly. So my connection to her is deep. And I really think that my parents giving me this name as a role model, it really truly worked. I'm not suggesting it for anyone else to give their parents or any crazy ideas. I can't say that if I had children, I would name them Amelia Earhart or some other famous name, but it certainly set me out on a track to live a really adventurous life. And I absolutely love it. I got to get home early and tuck little Achilles, Einstein, Newton, love it. I got to get home early and tuck little Achilles, Einstein, Newton, Marie Curie into bed. Yeah, exactly. You have to be careful. Yeah, you got to be careful. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and filling us in on Amelia Earhart and this new discovery.

Thank you.