Dan Snow's History Hit - The Assassination of Franz Ferdinand

Episode Date: June 27, 2022

Europe in 1914 was a tinderbox of imperial tensions and the spark that would light the conflagration would be the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. But there is much more to this story than simply the murder of two royals on the street of Sarajevo. Archduke Franz Ferdinand was an often misunderstood figure seemingly hard and old-fashioned. But in private he was a dedicated family man and husband who had married for love against the wishes of the Emporer and he and Sophie had endured snubs and humiliation at court because of it. He had travelled the world and hoped to reform the Austrian-Hungarian empire he was supposed to one day rule. Sue Woolmans, historian and author of The Assassination of the Archduke: Sarajevo 1914 and the Murder that Changed the World, joins the podcast to discuss the real Franz Ferdinand. She guides Dan through the life of Franz Ferdinand and the incompetence, bad luck and chance on the day that would lead to the death of the Archduke and begin a century of conflict.Mixed and Mastered by Dougal PatmoreIf you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! To download the History Hit app please go to the Android or Apple store.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. Here's a favourite episode from our archive. Enjoy. Hello everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. I am just still brushing the straw out of my hair. I'm cleansing the alcohol out of my kidneys. I'm rubbing the sleep from my eyes as a result of the wild bacchanal, the party that was the Chalk Valley History Festival. Saw a lot of old friends, a lot of historians, a lot of History Hit subscribers. Thank you for coming up. A lot of listeners to this podcast. It refreshed me. Well, in the short term, it broke me, but in the long term, it has refreshed me because it has reminded me that people are out there listening to this. I'm so happy and thank you. It was great to meet you all. Welcome to all our

new subscribers. Thank you to all the people that subscribe to history.tv it was a really fun weekend i hope wherever you are listening in the world you had a good weekend we have got a very special episode of the podcast today because it's the 28th of june which as everybody knows is the day on which archduke franz ferdinand drove into sarajevo survived one assassination attempt, tragically, was felled by another assassin's bullet. He and his wife Sophie were killed today in 1914. Also, the Treaty of Versailles was signed five years the day later on. So in some ways, the First World War began and ended on this day. The assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand is an extraordinary tale of bad luck and bad decision-making,

a tale about which you can't help thinking what would have happened if anything had gone differently. Was that gigantic conflict between Europe's powers inevitable at the start of the 20th century? Or could the world have been very different today? A Middle East still governed by the Ottoman Empire. Eastern Central Europe dominated by some loose confederation of Austro-Hungarian rule. A massive Germany.

No Poland. Some feckless Romanov drinking himself to death in the Kremlin. Who knows? Who knows? Anyway, that's history for you folks. On this podcast, talking about this fateful day in 1914 is Sue Woolmans. She's a historian. She's a friend of mine. She's a colleague of mine. She works at BBC as a day job. It's fantastic to hear on the podcast. She's written a book on the

assassination of Franz Ferdinand and she has a healthy fascination with the Habsburgs. Who doesn't? Who doesn't? What a family. They make the sexy Coburg und Goeth look boring trust me so get ready for all you need to know about the assassination of archduke francis fernand if you want to watch first world war material we've got plenty on history hit tvs more going up all the time so please go to history hit dot tv subscribe and join the revolution join all of us all the cool kids are now subscribing to history at dot tv that's just the truth in In the meantime, though, here is the brilliant Sue Woolmans. Enjoy. Sue, great to have you on the podcast. It's lovely to be here. Thank you for inviting me along.

Well, it's great to have you. Now, who is this Archduke? And, well, tell me a little bit about his slightly complicated relationship with the Habsburg Emperor. Oh, it's very complicated. He was the nephew of the Austrian Emperor. He was the eldest son of the Austrian Emperor's brother, and he wasn't supposed to inherit the throne. The man who was supposed to inherit the throne was Archduke Rudolf, who was Emperor Franz Josef's son. Unfortunately, they didn't get on very well. And without going into all the politics of it all, Rudolf committed suicide. And this catapulted the Archduke Franz Ferdinand into the line of succession. He wasn't expecting this. He was taken very much aback by this. He spent an awful lot of his teenage and early 20 years educating himself, trying to find out how to be an emperor, looking at the politics around the world and just generally doing his homework.

But also what he really had to do was to marry and have an heir to continue the line of succession. But what he did not want to do was to marry somebody he wasn't in love with. He really needed the support of the woman he loved, to quote Edward VIII. And he had fallen in love very early on in life with somebody who was a Czech countess, the Countess Sophie Chotek, but she wasn't aristocratic enough, royal enough to be thought of as his wife, to be accepted as his wife. And this created an awful lot of problems with the emperor. Basically, the romance carried on and it carried on and it carried on. The emperor carried on living and eventually they decided that they really had to get married. Franz Ferdinand went to talk to the emperor about it. The emperor said absolutely no and this led to quite a lot of aggravation between them and a lot of to-ing and

fro-ing about what would happen next. The emperor was particularly concerned that Franz Ferdinand would commit suicide and then he'd have two suicides on his hand. Eventually, it was agreed by the emperor and the rest of the court that Franz Ferdinand could marry his countess, but it would have to be a morganatic marriage. A morganatic marriage means that she cannot take her husband's title. Their children cannot inherit the throne or, in fact, anything royal. And so this was agreed, it was agreed in 1900 and they got married in 1900 and until we get to the assassination point, they really did live happily ever after. But what you had here was the heir to the throne with a wife who was not equal and therefore could not share in his duties as heir to the throne.

So there was no sitting next to him in a box at the opera. There was no doing any royal visits or anything like that. She had to stay permanently in the background and she was constantly, constantly snubbed by the court. She had a very sort of calm aristocratic air. She could ride through this. Franz Ferdinand himself could not. He just got angrier and angrier and he kept away from court and really he kept away from his uncle, the emperor, and it caused a lot of tension between them. And also you had a crusty old emperor who was reactionary. I mean, he was in his late 70s by this point. He didn't want to look forward.

He wanted to stay firmly where he was. And at the beginning of the 20th century, you really had to start looking forward. And Franz Ferdinand was looking forward, thinking about how he would run the empire, giving his uncle advice. His uncle didn't want advice. And so with his attitudes and with his wife, there was always going to be tension. Franz Joseph, his uncle, was one of the longest serving monarchs in the history of the world. So he was pretty old and crusty, as you say,

by this point. And the sad thing about Franz Ferdinand's assassination we're about to talk about is, as you say, he was looking forward. He was one of the only guys who had interesting ideas about how they might reform the Habsburg Empire, deal with their neighbours in a way that made war unlikely. So it was his removal, actually, that was catastrophic on two levels. Well, exactly. First of all, he had, when he was younger, he travelled the world. He'd seen America. He'd seen how America was run with lots of states

that looked up to the government in Washington. And he thought about the Habsburg Empire made up of an awful lot of diverse religions and cultures. You had Catholics and Muslims and Protestants, and you really had to try and make the empire work. They're all fighting against each other, really wanting to be in charge, particularly countries like Hungary. They wanted their fair share. And Franz Ferdinand could see that if he didn't start thinking about how to give them a fair share in ruling, they're all going to rebel and all hell is going to break out. So he had a

plan of trying to make it a United States of Europe. Now, I like to think that this is really the beginning of the European Parliament, because his ideas influenced very much his successor, who again was another nephew, whose own son became very, very important in the European parliament. But I'm probably digressing here. Well, no, it's very useful and important because all of this is important context for this trip to Sarajevo in Bosnia, right at the southern edge of this vast, sprawling Austro-Hungarian empire. Why was he there? And what was the special significance? Because he was there with his wife for once. She was not in the background. She was on a state visit, wasn't she? Well, it was not an official visit. He was going there as an observer of the military

manoeuvres that were going on in the hills above Sarajevo. He was the Inspector General of the Army. He didn't have to go. He went at the request of the Emperor. He was very well aware that he was going into a powder keg of a country. Bosnia itself had been annexed by the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1908. So they were really running Bosnia. Next door were the Serbians who wanted not only to run Bosnia and Serbia, they wanted a greater Serbia. So you had a lot of political tension in this area.

And Franz Ferdinand was very aware of that. His wife, well, as I've said, it was a very happy marriage. And she was originally just going along as moral support, as company, nothing more than that. So she wasn't going to make any public appearances. Then the governor of Bosnia, General Potiorek, got wind of the fact that Sophie was going along. And suddenly he said, oh, can I have a visit? Can we have a visit in Sarajevo? And Franz Ferdinand graciously gave in. And so what happened was Franz Joseph thought, well, this is going to be a very good idea for the empire. I'll say yes to Sophie being allowed to be sitting next to Franz Ferdinand in a car and standing with him at social engagements.

So it wasn't planned that way, but that's how it came about. And in fact, while Franz Ferdinand was up in the hills above Sarajevo watching the manoeuvres, Sophie was around Sarajevo visiting churches and orphanages, doing all the things you would expect of royalty today, churches and orphanages, doing all the things you would expect of royalty today, giving out money, patting children on heads, giving out sweets, really making a huge success of what she probably would have done when she was empress. Instead, things went a little bit differently. So he watches his military manoeuvres. He heads into Sarajevo. Was he warned not to go? into Sarajevo, was he warned not to go? Well, he wasn't specifically warned not to go. There were rumblings of very vague warnings that came from the Serbian government, particularly Pasic, who was the president of Serbia at that time, I think. But these got to

the military police in Vienna, who vaguely sort of mentioned it to Potiorek, who was the governor general of Bosnia, who was well aware of all the dangers that were facing Franz Ferdinand. What Potiorek really did not tell Franz Ferdinand, which would be very relevant had he known, was that the day he was to visit Sarajevo, which was the 28th of June, Sunday, the 28th of June, was a day called St. Vitus Day, which is very important to the Serbs. They call it Vidovan, and it commemorates a defeat against the Turkish army back in 1389, I think. So it's a really important day for the Serbs. And Bosnia is made up of Bosnian Serbs,

Croat Catholics, and Bosniak Muslims. So it was really the wrong day, and he should have been told. He wasn't warned enough. Now, I, Sue, do not want to get us both involved in a two-hour discussion of Balkan politics, particularly when it comes to Serbian self-determination. But just briefly, the Serbian minority within Bosnia looked at next-door Serbia and thought, oh, wouldn't it be nice to be part of a greater Serbia? If we get rid of the Austro-Hungarians, get rid of these Habsburgs, we could join our brothers in Serbia. And this was an age of nationalism. It was an age of this

idea that these ethnic groups were distinct and ought to be together in one sovereign entity. You've explained it perfectly. And really, there's not much more to add to that, except that for people of today, if they can sort of envisage what the old Yugoslavia was like, that is basically what they got. Yugoslavia was like. That is basically what they got. Yugoslavia was formed at the end of World War I and was given the Serbian king as its ruler rather than being part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. And so what all these Bosnian Serbs, now I'm saying Serbs, I'm not saying Croats, I'm not saying Muslims. saying Serbs, I'm not saying Croats, I'm not saying Muslims. It was the Serbs. And Serbia is a large country compared to all these other countries in that particular area. So it was the Serbs that wanted to dominate. And that's exactly what happened at the end of World War I.

And this leads us to the Civil War in the 1980s. But you don't want to go into all this because we'll be here forever. We'll be here forever. So Franz Ferdinand decides to go on an official visit on a holy day for the Serbians. And waiting for him in Sarajevo is a group of Serbian-supported, now this is the big one I get in trouble for, terrorists slash freedom fighters, slash freedom fighters, who are sort of waiting for their opportunity, are they? I always call them assassins. That gets you out of that little complication. Yes, they're waiting for him. They are supported by, now we can't say they are supported by the Serbian government. We can say they are supported by the Serbian terror organisation, the Black Hand.

Some of the assassins actually belong to the Black Hand. Some of them belong to the junior branch of the Black Hand. What they do have is guns and bombs provided by the Black Hand in Serbia, which they have brought from Belgrade to Sarajevo. And they are all basically hanging around in Sarajevo along what is known as the Apple Quay. It's a long road that runs all the way along by the side of the Milyaka River. And I apologise, I have pronounced that wrong. It's a bit like the Thames. Let's look at it in English terms. It's a bit like they're on the embankment by the Thames, all waiting for Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie to go past in their

car on the 28th of June. In this new Danso Notes history, on the anniversary of the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, we are finding out exactly what happened. More after this. happened. More crusades. Find out who we really were. By subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Wherever you get your podcasts. So, Franz Ferdinand, is he a bit nervous? I mean, the stories of him wearing lucky chums, you've done all the research.

Where do you come down on this? Well, I wouldn't say he was nervous. He had been nervous going there. And when they arrived, they'd found that the welcome was actually very warm. Franz Ferdinand was obviously welcomed by all the officials. Sophie herself, having done her visits around Sarajevo, had found the whole community very warm and accepting of them. They felt much safer at the end of the visit than they had at the beginning. And in fact,

Sophie said to a member of the clergy at a dinner the night before they did their visit to Sarajevo. She said to them how much they had enjoyed themselves in Sarajevo and how welcome they had felt. So by the time we get to the morning of Sunday, the 28th of June, they're feeling pretty okay and pretty secure. I cannot prove, but I think one of the reasons Sophie was particularly keen on going with Franz Ferdinand was that there was a sort of feeling of honour amongst assassins back at the beginning of the 20th century. And they didn't shoot a woman. They wouldn't shoot women. They wouldn't shoot children. So Sophie probably had in the back of her mind the fact that if she sat next to Franz Ferdinand in that car, he would be safer. And that's exactly what she did.

So that's one of the reasons she was there sitting there next to him. She didn't have to go through all these dinners and things that he was supposed to do. If she felt at all nervous, she could have hidden herself away. But she didn't do that. Did he wear lucky charms? He always wore lucky charms. He was a slightly suspicious kind of person. And he always wore a selection of was a slightly suspicious kind of person and he always wore a

selection of lucky charms under his shirt so he didn't specifically wear a bunch of lucky charms on the day that was just what he wore religious lucky charms presents from family all these things meant a great deal to Franz Ferdinand he was quite an emotional man you look at him and you think oh gosh he's stiff and photos show him as stiff and miserable looking. But actually, he was warm and kind. He loved his wife, he loved his children, he loved his stepmom. He was an all-round good bloke. But also, this was an era in which political violence was more normal. The previous 20 years, it's seen a Russian czar, Greek king, Italian king, French president killed. People had a few pops at Queen Victoria. Assassination was, it's seen a Russian Tsar, Greek king, Italian king, French president killed.

People had a few pops at Queen Victoria. Assassination was, it feels like late 19th, early 20th century. It was more of a recognisable part of public life than perhaps it is today, certainly in the West. Absolutely, totally. And he accepted that as part of the course. To support what I said earlier about Sophie sitting next to him, the assassin who threw a bomb at the Grand Duke Serge in 1905, he'd been trying to assassinate Grand Duke Serge for about a year,

but every time Grand Duke Serge went past in a carriage, he had children or his wife with him. So usually they didn't attack somebody like Franz Ferdinand when he was with family. So I think they probably did feel safer that morning. But yes, you are entirely right. There'd been an awful lot of assassinations and some pretty terrible ones like that of Alexander II, who was blown up by a bomb. And there were more to come as well. So he drives into Sarajevo. He drives along the Apple Quay. Tell me what happens next. So they're driving along quite happily at a reasonably slow pace. And they get much further into the main area of the town.

And just as they come to the main area of the town, the first of the assassins actually does something. There's a couple before him who do absolutely nothing. They stand there kind of frozen. And what he does is he throws a bomb at the car badly. He misses getting the car 100%. His bomb hits the back of the car and then rolls under the car that's following and explodes. But it explodes not particularly well, doesn't do a great deal of damage, doesn't kill anybody, which is a good thing. It gives minor injuries to the people in the car, damages the car, but it doesn't actually do any major damage. Franz Ferdinand rather rashly stops his own car and gets out and makes sure that the people in the car behind aren't dead. Then he gets back into the car and they basically put their foot down and rush to their destination, which is a building

at the end of the Apple Quay called the Town Hall. It's a huge Moorish building, which many people will have seen being completely destroyed by the civil war in former Yugoslavia. It's an iconic, beautiful building. It has been rebuilt since, but most people will have images of it up in flames after that war. So they arrive and they get out of the car and the mayor, who was in a car in front of them, starts his speech welcoming Franz Ferdinand. Franz Ferdinand himself explodes in temper. He was a man with a temper and he said, how dare you speak to me like this? Your city is throwing bombs at me. And he was just about to carry on raging at this poor official when his wife, Sophie, just puts her hand on his arm. That's all she had

to do to control this man with a bad temper. And he stops. He lets the mayor continue his speech. Franz Ferdinand is even able to give his speech quite calmly, despite the fact that there's a few drops of blood on it from the poor people in the car behind him. And he even manages to address the assembled dignitaries with some Serbo-Croat. The event goes okay. What happens after she leaves? When they get into the town hall, it's basically a cup of tea and a meeting of officials while Sophie goes upstairs and meets some of the Muslim ladies. While she's upstairs, Franz Ferdinand's officials desperately try to talk him out of going anywhere in the car. But he says, no, no, I'm going out there. I'm going to show myself again. And I'd like the car to go back to the hospital so that I can see the injured people.

And so they plan that the car will go back along the quay. The original plan had been to turn right and go into the old town of Sarajevo, which is full of ridiculously narrow streets. I mean, narrower than a country lane in this country. They get ready to go. Sophie comes back down the stairs to Franz Ferdinand and he says to her, I'd like you to go on to our next destination, but not travel in the same car as me. She, of course, says, Francie, I'm going with you. And there was no talking her out of that. So they get into the car. And there's one problem here. They have this new route that's going straight down the quay, but nobody's actually bothered to tell the drivers of the cars. I mean, ridiculous. So off they go. I mean, it's not very far. It's only about 300 yards. They go down the quay and then the cars start turning right into very narrow streets,

Franz Joseph Street, it was called. And at this point, the governor general, who is in the car with Franz Ferdinand and Sophie, gets up, shouts at the driver and tells him to back up and go back onto the quay and drive to the hospital. So this is a big old car with huge gear stick. The driver has to stop, literally stop and change gears. As he does this, he's unfortunately stopped right on the corner of this street. And also on this corner is a man called Gavrilo Princip. He's one of this team of assassins. He knows by now that all the other assassins have sort of disappeared and his colleague

who threw the bomb has been arrested. He is unfortunately the most militant of all the assassins and he really wants to go down in history as a Serbian hero and in front of him is Franz Ferdinand and his wife and Princip fires probably two shots maybe three I don't think he really fires very accurately but luck was on his side one bullet goes through Franz Ferdinand's neck hitting a major artery the other bullet goes through the side of the car and into the bottom of Sophie's stomach and also hits a major artery at this point Sophie turns to Franz Ferdinand and says what has happened to you? And then she slumps into his lap. He looks at her and he says, Sophie, Sophie, don't die. Live for our children. Potoyorik, the governor general, instructs the

driver of the car to turn around and go over the nearest bridge and take them to Potoyorik's residence, which is the Muslim town hall known as the Konak. So that's probably a five-minute drive away. They arrive at the Konak, and at this point they have to lift the bodies, bleeding bodies at this point, out of the car, up a flight of stairs, through a huge hall, and up another huge flight of stairs before they can place Franz Ferdinand on a couch and Sophie on a bed. They're all very confident at this point that Sophie has only fainted, so Franz Ferdinand gets the most attention. He's spurting blood, unfortunately, from his mouth and is unable to say anything. His closest aide begs him to just give him a message for the children,

and Franz Ferdinand is incapable of doing that. He dies on the sofa. They then turn their attention to Sophie and realise that she's been dead for quite some time. She actually died in the car. And that's it. They are both dead. You know, you tell it so well. Every time I come across this story, I'm so struck by the number of times that history could have been different. I mean, I know everyone loves a bit of what if, but there's no greater what if than this. The car stopping, going the wrong way. I mean, Prince Ips happens to be standing there.

It's just crazy, isn't it? Oh, even now, yes. I'm completely struck by the what ifs of it all. It's like it was fate, really. It could have been so different if some thought had gone into the day, if some thought had gone into, I think, a lot more security. And if really, Potiorek hadn't been in charge of Bosnia at that particular point. He was not a very good Austrian official of any description. And he goes on to serve in the First World War and is absolutely hopeless. But he's a very bad governor general. He's very bad at thinking about security. He had very minimal

security within Sarajevo on that day. He could easily have drafted in more police or brought some of the military down from their manoeuvres. And then not to tell the driver of the car which way to go is just beyond belief, frankly. And really, if I had been Franz Joseph, it would have been, well, not off with his head, but certainly he would not have ended up serving in the First World War. He would have been dismissed as a governor general completely, but that's not what happened in those days. Well, there weren't many officers in the Austrian army who covered themselves in glory in the First

World War, but we don't know what happens next. The Austrians released an unbelievably punitive list of demands to the Serbians who agreed to nearly all of them and not all of them, and it triggered a series of alliances that led to the outbreak of the first world war really again just such a turning point in world history and it all came down to the shenanigans and wrong turns and cars stopping and people in the wrong place in sarajevo 107 years ago yes and also and also I think, unfortunately, to a complete misunderstanding of Franz Ferdinand, the person, and to some extent he is to blame for that because he didn't have the PR that a lot of the other rulers and crown princes at that time did. For example, if you look at the Kaiser, everywhere you went in Germany, there were these cutesy pictures of the Kaiser with his

wife and his adorable children and grandchildren. Franz Ferdinand did very little of that. He gave off this impression of being a difficult, grumpy man, and he didn't try and soften his image. And I think perhaps had he been emperor, I think Sophie would probably have softened his image. She would have ended up being a consort. She would never have been empress because he swore that she would never be empress on the Bible. She would never have been the empress, but she would certainly have softened the image and the children were adorable too. and crusty and grumpy as Franz Joseph, when really you had a man who would have granted some form of independence to Bosnia and Herzegovina. And so he would probably have made a particularly good emperor and his successor also had similar feelings and thoughts and beliefs.

So it could all have ended so much differently, so much more differently. Just to finish up, their funeral was a bit of a sad affair, wasn't it? It was a sad affair because, as you will remember I said at the beginning, she was still seen as not equal to him. So they were put into the two best coffins they could find in Sarajevo, not up to royal standards by any means. They were transported back to Vienna together. So she received all the same honors as Franz Ferdinand until they got to Vienna, where they were only allowed to lie in state for less than 12 hours. less than 12 hours. She was put on a beer that was a lot lower than his was to denote her status. The funeral itself was very quiet. In the 14 years that they had been married,

they had made quite a lot of friends around Europe, including our George V and the Kaiser, people who would have actually attended the ceremony had they been allowed. But the whole funeral service in Vienna was kept very quiet. The children were not even allowed to go to it. And Sophie was not allowed to be buried with her husband in the big Kaisergruft, where all Habsburgs were buried in the middle of Vienna. Franz Ferdinand knew that would happen. So what he had done is he'd actually written in his will that they would be buried together forever in a property they owned outside Vienna called Archtstetten. And there he'd created a small, peaceful chapel

where they would be able to lie next to each other together at the same height, I must add. The court decided that once they had their terribly short funeral service in the center of Vienna, then off they would jolly well go and the court would have nothing more to do with them. This caused actually a rebellion amongst the courtiers, most of whom certainly liked Sophie and had grown more appreciative of Franz Ferdinand. They led a rebellion. They actually followed the coffins to the station in Vienna, and then they all travelled on to Arztstetten for what was really the proper funeral service, the family funeral service in the chapel at Arztdetton with the children attending. And that's where they lie today. And their car can be seen in a museum in Vienna. There's lots of pieces

of the story that you can still go and visit today. Thank you so much for coming on this podcast. Sue, what's the book called? The book is called The Assassination of the Archduke. It's published by Pan Macmillan in the UK. It's published by Pan Macmillan in the UK. It's published by St. Martin's in America. And it's published by a whole host of other people around the world as well. Well done you. Thank you very much, Sue. Thanks for coming on. An absolute pleasure and honour. Thank you for asking me. I feel we have the history on our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all work out and finish.

Thanks folks for listening to this episode of Danston's History. As I say all the time, I love doing these podcasts. They are the best thing I do professionally. I feel very lucky to have you listening to them. If you fancied giving them a rating review, obviously the best rating review possible would be ideal. It makes a big difference to us. I know it's a pain, but we'd really, really be grateful. And if you want to listen to the other podcasts in our ever-increasing stable, don't forget we've got Susanna Lipscomb with Not Just the Tudors. That's flying high in the charts. We've got our Medieval podcast, Gone Medieval, the brilliant Matt Lewis and Kat Jarman. We've got The Ancients with our very own Tristan Hughes. And we've got Warfare as well, very own Tristan Hughes and we've got warfare as well

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