Dan Snow's History Hit - The British Republic

Episode Date: February 6, 2020

Paul Lay, editor of History Today, has written a great book about the rise and fall of Oliver Cromwell's Protectorate (1653–1659), England's sole experiment in republican government – and one of the most extraordinary but neglected periods in British history. Having won two civil wars, conquered Ireland and Scotland and seen off Charles II, in 1653 Oliver Cromwell assumed the title of 'Lord Protector of the Commonwealth of England, Scotland and Ireland. But, as Paul explained to Dan, crafting a lasting, stable and legitimate alternative to monarchy was a lot more complicated....

Hello everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. It's a funny thing, I spend a lot of time in my life reading, studying, thinking about the 18th century, about the late 17th, which is we like to annex into the 18th century, the birth of the scientific revolution, the glorious revolution, the financial revolution that comes at the end of the 17th century. I spend a lot of time thinking about the Tudors in the 16th and the early Stuarts of the early 17th century, but there's been a blind spot in my education, and that is the extraordinary experiment with republicanism that England, that Britain saw in the middle of the 17th century. Let's not forget that during the civil wars of the 17th century, King Charles was beheaded.

The first crowned head of state to go through a legal process and be executed anywhere in the world, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one, but I think it was. And the challenge to replace him with a stable, legitimate republic was a significant one. Particularly because Cromwell, the protector who assumed dictatorial power shortly after Charles was killed, launched an incredibly ambitious series of reforms, moral reforms and imperial projects in the Western Hemisphere. So all in all, he took on a lot. He took on a lot. And as you'll hear, parts of it didn't go so well. For example, convincing the Brits to behave in a moral fashion

the writing was on the wall there buddy i could have told him that but you can watch this interview with paul lay he's a great friend to the team of history here he's editor of the very brilliant history today he's a fantastic scholar historian in his own right and he's written a wonderful book called providence lost about the rise and fall of cromwell's protectorate we had a a really good chat and I certainly learned a huge amount, as I did from reading the book, which I did over Christmas. So it was a real treat. You can watch this interview with Paul on History Hit TV. It's like Netflix for history. That's right. We've got hundreds of history documentaries up there. You pay a subscription, you go and watch. But if you use the code POD6, P-O-D-6, because you're a podcast listener, you will not have to pay a subscription you go and watch but if you use the code pod6 pod6 because you're a podcast listener you will not have to pay a subscription for six whole weeks it's six weeks

free you can check out the whole thing you can binge watch the whole site you don't have to subscribe if you don't want at the end of it so uh please go and check that out for free and in the meantime have a listen to paul lay paul it's a huge honor to have you on the on the podcast Paul Ley. Paul, it's a huge honour to have you on the podcast because you are in charge of history today. Indeed. And now you're usually in the seat that I'm in, you know, and now you're the historian. You're in the hot seat.

I'm very impressed. I don't know how you had time to do it all. But talk to me because I don't want to mention Charles I, Charles II. We're only going to talk about the protectorate, right? This is a, so what is, Charles, is it February 1649? When is he? January. January. 13th of January. Okay, end of January. And then to 1660. This is a period of history that I know the least about of any other period of history. Am I typical of British people? And is that a deliberate, is that a conspiracy

by the man to stop us learning about when we were a republic? Well, there's no doubt that it is probably, in fact, almost certainly the least known, important, crucial, defining period in British history. It's of huge resonance, everyure in the whole Brexit scenario, the kind of issues that are raised at this point about the relationship between the constituent nations of Britain, about the relationship between

Parliament and its people, about religious fundamentalism, there are all kinds of things going on. Foreign entanglements. Foreign entanglements, the birth of empire. Global Britain. Absolutely. You know, and there's an idea too, I think, of English exceptionalism that's there as well. So there's all these things that are obviously, I don't like to do too much relevance, as you know, but there's certainly resonance there. And yet, mysteriously, people know almost nothing about it. mysteriously, people know almost nothing about it. And this became apparent because the original idea behind this book was based on a series of books

about years 1066, 1485, 1215, because Dan Jones, a historian, had written a book for the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta, 1215, so round about 2015. And he asked me, would you like to write a book on a particular year? And if so, which year? And I said, well, 1657 would be the one. And people said, well, 1657, what happened in 1657? It's the year in which the crown was offered by Parliament to Oliver Cromwell. Seems like a big deal. Which is a big deal, among many other things that happened in that relatively small period.

We're talking about a decade, essentially. And so I started to write this book, and Dan said, you know, this is good, let's go. But in writing the book, or beginning to write the book, I realised that the introduction was going to have to be this long, because no one knew anything that happened after the execution of the king, and the actual book itself was going to be this big. The introduction was going to be very, very long. So I said to the editor there, a person called Richard Milbank, head of Zeus, to say, to say why don't we just write an accessible narrative history of the protectorate for the you know that most elusive of people the intelligent general rego you know um and so that's what we did and in doing so it was quite timely in a way because much of the resonance that

we've just talked about was there and was becoming more apparent as the months went on and the years went on about writing this book and As for your question about conspiracy I Don't think there's a conspiracy and I'm not much of a believer in conspiracy, but it's curious as to why it's so little known People know that a king was killed in 1649, in January 1649. They know that a king returns in 1660 with Charles II. And they'd almost certainly heard of Oliver Cromwell. But actually what happened during those years is a complete mystery to most people.

Yeah, maybe not conspiracy, but is there a sort of Whigish interpretation of history where you go, where this felt like a limbless, like a branch on a tree that didn't develop, you know? So you go, absolutist, Charles I, Charles II comes in,

a bit more reticent, his brother gets kicked out, glorious revolution, development of constitutional monarchy. So that feels like a narrative. And then this, the Republican experiment feels like a radical discontinuity,

which doesn't then, well, according to my conspiracy, doesn't lead on anywhere. Well, it doesn't. And I think there's also that desire to see Britain as this stable, continuous nation of well-balanced, rather than like revolutionary France or even the United States or places like that. Absolutely. And that's a very whiggish interpretation although of course the whiggish uh ideas come through the cromwellian ring rather than through the monarchist one and but there does seem to be i was still struck by the antipathy that's there toward crromwell the person. He's a deeply complex person. I'm by no means a

Cromwellian, nor particularly a supporter of the Stuarts. I'm fairly ecumenical in this business, and I can see why, for example, Cromwell is a despised figure in Ireland. It's very, very difficult to talk, to have any sensible debate about Cromwell in an Irish context because there he is as a figure of essentially a national foundation myth. So it's very difficult to do that. But even in this country, and not just among people with the Catholic event or anything like that, people are very hostile still to him. And that's slightly puzzling because during the 1930s, for example, Cromwell was often regarded or compared to European-style dictators, for example. We always reflect, history is always contemporary history in that sense. But it's

very, very difficult to argue that even if the ambition was there, certainly the means in early modern Europe is just not there at all. Okay, well let's start. So we got, so on February the 1st, there's no king in England. Who's in charge? Well, the army is essentially in charge. And there's a rump parliament, it's a very small parliament, there's probably around about 15 or so active members of that.

And the army is essentially in charge. But the most prominent figure, though not actually the leader of the army, is Cromwell. He is the person who I think has the most loyalty. He has this following. He's a genuine believer in, I think, religious liberty. There is a genuine... To extend beyond the kind of Presbyterian-dominated parliament, he is a genuine believer in liberty. There is a genuine... to extend beyond the kind of Presbyterian-dominated Parliament, he is a genuine believer in liberty. He takes on side people like Baptists, he's himself an independent, he's essentially a Congregationalist. And so there's a genuine desire

for religious liberty there. And the army of which Cromwell is not the head, but he's the most influential, powerful, most respected member, is in charge. And it regards itself as a religious force. They refer to themselves as the saints. the new Jerusalem, the elect within an elect nation that seeks to transform, just as Israel is the paragon of the Old Testament, then England will be that in the new. OK, so two questions. Political complexion, has the army extended its influence right across the isles at this point? right across the Isles at this point? Well it hasn't at this point but it is about to because in 1650 Cromwell along with his ally John Lambert and some would argue in this particular instance Lambert is the most important figure wins a crushing victory over the Scots at Dunbar on that most fateful of dates for Cromwellians,

the 3rd of September, that's in 1650. And it's very much against the odds that through almost reckless ambition in terms of military tactics, they defeat the Scots, surprising them in battle. An incredible, which is regarded by Cromwell, by Lambert, and by the saints of the army as a miracle.

It's called the miracle of Dunbar. And this is a sign that God is with these people. They are doing God's work, just as they did in the civil war against Charles. The providence of God continues just as, and they think in a very Elizabethan worldview, I think, Cromwell and his followers. And what I mean by that, and remember that so far as we know, the only book that Cromwell read outside the Bible, of which he had an intimate knowledge as did most of his contemporaries,

was Walter Raleigh's History of the World, which is a kind of manifesto of English Elizabethan providentialism written, of course, in the wake of the Armada, which again is this great symbol of divine providence. And they win at Dunbar on 3rd September 1651. This confirms this them as God's elect within an elect nation. And then a year later they crush Charles II, who has been crowned as Charles II by the Scots, as he comes down to Worcester again on the 3rd of September 1651. And from then on, they have secured their hold on the entire island of Britain and Ireland too. And so

there are sporadic places, always the Highlands of Scotland, of course, and certainly there's opposition in Ireland, but essentially, so far as rule is there, the military is in charge. And Cromwell, by this point, is by far the most significant figure in the country. I always find, I mean, that's the first time since Edward I that all the constituent parts of the Isles have been brought together. I find that... By force. By force, yeah, sorry.

And I think that alone is worthy of, you know, it's funny that people don't talk about that, just in the military and political context alone. No, it is extraordinary. But as to why, I've no real idea. I mean, obviously, the Irish dimension is controversial for obvious reasons, but there's an unwillingness there within Scotland. I don't really know how it's done in the wider sense. It's not that historians haven't written about this stuff. This is one of the most remarkable things, and I think it's the real motivation behind this book,

is that I studied under people like Barry Coward and Michael Hunter and really wonderful historians. But I've always been puzzled by the fact that over all the periods in British history over say the last 40 or 50 years, the best work or certainly among the best work has been done on this period. There are generations of superb scholars who have written on this and this is a synthesis of their work essentially. I mean I make no bold original claims for this book. But what I've tried to do is to open a door or a window onto this remarkable work so that people will read Providence Lost,

and then they will seek out the work of the real scholars, the real historians of this period, because there's plenty of accessible work. But I think on the protector itself, I think there are two books for the general reader. One is Barry Coward's textbook on it, which is very much a textbook, very good work, but a textbook. And there's one by Ronald Hutton, which is on the British Republic, which again is a small, almost pamphlet. But there's very little work for the intelligent general reader on this subject in fact i think this is the only one so when i was in durham cathedral doing a podcast on the survivors of the but just defeat dunbar it was quite interesting because there durham when it because the church authorities just didn't want to talk about when durham cathedral had been deconcentrated

used as a prison you can still see where the stains from the urine is on the floor. And so I wonder if it's a little bit like Louis and Charles, is it Charles X after the French Revolution, Dave Altruist, where there is an element that just people hope by not talking about it might go away. But then Charles II quite liked talking about his escape from Worcester. I mean, he wasn't embarrassed. He didn't treat the interregnum of the Republic like something that wasn't to be talked about. No, and there's plenty, as you'll discover in the book, when it comes to the end of it, there's plenty of continuity between the figures involved in the protectorate and those who did a deal with, I mean, most famously, there's General Monk. We'll come to General Monk, absolutely.

But there are other people like William Penn, for example, who cut a deal, essentially, with this and transfer their allegiances and power and do very well out of it. OK, so we've got Cromwell is now the overlord of the British Isles, the Isles, Britain and Ireland. Goodness knows, it's difficult to call them anything these days. And he is, what's he do? 651. So what's the army still in charge? What is what is his plan to match his military successes with a kind of lasting constitutional arrangement? Well, the phrase that Cromwell uses again and again is healing and settling. And what we have to think about this is when he talks about healing and settling,

and settling. The constitutional reforms, the constitutional projects and the religious project of the moral reformation of England are entwined. You simply cannot separate those two things, they are combined. This presents itself as most extreme or most obviously religious with the nominated assembly, which is the first real parliament that Cromwell has. He's not called, he's not protector at this point. There's a nominated assembly of which he's the primus inter pares. And this is the idea, not of John Lambert, who's the second in command at this point, but a person called Thomas Harrison, who is a member of a group called the Fifth Monarchists. And they believe that there are going to be five monarchies on earth before the millennium appears, before God returns to earth. Those being Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. Rome being both classical

Rome and the papacy. And there will be a fifth monarchy and this, if all goes well, will be in England. And England, so you can see this deeply religious providential thread running throughout this. And so Harrison becomes the kind of ideological figurehead of this assembly of, and it's called nominated because the members of this assembly, the MPs, will be nominated by various churches, or at least that's the plan.

In the end, they're not. They're appointed in a much more haphazard and one would say more corrupt way than that. But it's modelled on the Jewish Sanhedrin, quite explicitly modelled on the Sanhedrin. The fifth monarchists are often represented as dominating this. It's actually not true, it's actually not a bad Parliament, it's lampooned in some way because it's known as the

bare-bones Parliament after one of its more obscure members who's a city leather-trailer I think called Praise God Bare Bones or Praise God Barbon which is a very puritan name. I forget the full extent of his actual real name but it's in the book and that's something to ponder and wonder at. But it's actually a reasonably effective one but there is obstruction from the more mainstream MPs, the Presbyter MPs, and it ends as almost all of Cromwell's parliaments do, by the eviction of MPs by military force, and Cromwell will turn up and say, oh, I didn't realise this was going on, and present himself as good. There's a

wonderful phrase by Blair Worden, who's the great historian of this period when he says that Cromwell is practiced at not knowing. He always seems to be not quite there or just gone when a dramatic event happens and yet one can't help but wonder with great reason just what hand he's playing and there's definitely this kind of elusive figure of Cromwell, this political figure, what goes on in the background is always there. One of the great sources, the great source for Cromwell that we haven't got, we'll never have, are his dialogues with God and those are the ones that I think there's this constant practice of Cromwell's to go into prayer, to go into retreat and have this one-to-one dialogue with God. It's actually very, very well done in a play by Howard Brenton called 55 Days, which is set during the 55 days before Charles' first execution.

the 55 days before Charles' first execution. And you have these imagined conversations between Cromwell, but he's always searching for the answer to what would God want me to do. You say we don't have that source. Did he write down transcripts which are now lost, or did we just not have it because it wasn't recorded? Well, it was just a private conversation. It's just in the head. It's a shame.

Okay, so bare-bones Parliament's gone. What's next? Well, as Thomas Harrison recedes into the background again, John Lambert comes to the fore, but not as a military figure this time, although, of course, the army's always there in the background, but as a rather original political thinker. as a rather original political thinker. And he composes the first written constitution in the world,

which is called the Instrument of Government, which essentially tries to settle the Republic on firm or firmer foundations. So essentially it replaces the old trinity of king, commons and parliament with a sort of kingly figure or a sovereign shall we call it, a council and a parliament and that's the new settlement. Now who is going to be the king-like figure? The original offer is that it should be Cromwell, that there should be a kind of house of Cromwell.

But Cromwell resists this, and instead he's offered the title of Lord Protector, which obviously has some semblance in English history. There is a tradition of it, but it's essentially as a guardian of a future monarch, as you know. But he takes on this title of Lord Protector, which is controversial. And he takes on a mantle of royalty. You know, there's no great ostentation at this point. You know, he goes to the opening of Parliament in Puritan black,

although actually, ironically, black is actually quite expensive. The Puritan wear is actually quite expensive, relatively, because black's a difficult colour to achieve at that time. But he takes our kind of mantle of monocanism, which really upsets his loyal Republican figures, people like Henry Vane, Thomas Heselrig, and of course Milton, who responds and asks questions about, you know, this man who was the greatest among us.

You know, we keeping an eye on you and we watching how this unravels. But by this point, Cromwell's in charge. But by this point Cromwell's in charge. His council, which is often made up of his family members, people like Desborough, people like Lambert, his sons around, particularly Henry have this very very small elite, a Puritan elite that's gathered around the sources of power in White Hall and Parliament and it's beginning to resemble a kind of Puritan aristocracy's pushing it but there's no doubt that these are now important, intertwined, interlocked figures, and there's a kind of regime about it. But it's on this foundation of the instrument of government.

So speaking of aristocracy, how's the Isles? How have they been governed in practice? I mean, are traditional, some manorial practices still going on, but different people, or is there now government, state paid for troops in every town and village i mean it's it's early modern britain um the the military presence i mean this is a place that's recovering from civil war remember um it's had famine it's had all kinds of stuff, but it's getting towards stability. And I suppose there's, with most people, there's a kind of Hobbesian kind of belief in the strong arm of government. This is a strong government.

It's secure. Who are its agents in the regions? Well, pretty much remains the same groups of people as before and we'll come to this in a way but there's a great deal of continuity because however much they may be against Anglicanism for example the church being and the prayer book continues to be used in those parishes people adhere to the old ways. The old Elizabethan settlement, essentially, remains the one in which most people practice on a Sunday. The courts probably work a little bit better because there's a lot of lawyers in Parliament.

There is some measure of reform. So actually, in terms of justice, in terms of the daily business of life, very little changes, in England at least. Great landed estates broken up? Not particularly, no, no they're not. There is an act of oblivion that takes place, that's dated post Worcester, if there's no resistance there there's no great problem there's obviously suspicion of Cavaliers the most fierce zealous Cavaliers will often be abroad they've gone to France wherever they

happen to be and there's an exiled court of their with Charles which all takes place after Worcester many people escape after the Battle of Worcester in 1651. And there's a network of agents, but there's a lot of passive people. The classic work, I suppose, of the passive cavalier is something like Isaac Newton's The Complete Angler, whereas it becomes a kind of retreat. They can live with this government. They can settle with it. It's not persecuting them in any way they're not going to be able to advance themselves

but they can settle back into this kind of if they're wealthy enough into this kind of rural idyll remembering a merry England before describing my next five years as Brexit Brexit plays out and I sit on a riverbank chilling absolutely

that's entirely there. You can become, you know, and there's an entire tradition of there, I suppose like the kind of George Herbert tradition of poetry as well that's there, that is a kind of passive resistance I suppose. But there's no great

action, particularly at this time, against royalists. So Republican England, it doesn't feel radically different at the coalface to Stuart England. Well, I think essentially what's happened, and I mean, here's a Brexit parallel. I don't like doing this, but here's one. And I mean, here's a Brexit parallel.

I don't like doing this, but here's one. Basically, when the king is executed, they've made a decisive decision to make England a republic. But they don't know what to do next. People have spoken. And the next 10 years is essentially a failed attempt to discover what to do next and to deliver a settlement that satisfies everyone and that's the problem republic means republic it does it does indeed so let's get the republic done yeah let's get it out of the way and then we can anyway uh so okay so we got so they're getting

the republic done domestically but but actually in your book and and from my my passion as a sort of my interest in maritime history, it's what happens outside the Isles now as well. I mean, is it too simple to see this as Cromwell gaining control over the Isles and then keeping that momentum going, moving into the Atlantic and then also into Europe as well? Yeah, I don't think it's too simple to say that. I mean, that's essentially what happens. You have the stability.

You have a very large, highly trained, highly motivated army. And precedented in British history, this army. It's essentially the beginnings of the British army. I mean, this is where the Grenadier Guards and the Coldstream... It's embarrassing. It's awkward. It's awkward. Trigger warning for any Guardsman listening. And, of course, the Navy is immensely strong,

and it really doesn't have much to do. After the Treaty of Westminster, there's peace with the Dutch, who've always been a sort of trading threat, despite their shared Protestantism. And there are essentially two major powers in Europe, which is France, and there is the major global power which is Spain, Black Spain as the Puritans regard it as. And so once Britain and Ireland are settled to as much as they can be, there's a desire to use this army and particularly this navy.

What do we do? What do we do now? And they look back, as I've already mentioned on those great tales of Raleigh, of Hawkins, of Drake, these people who went out into the new world and singed the Spaniards' beard. You know, I mean, this is their idea. You know, look what God has given to us so far. God is totally behind us. This is the great opportunity now

to take on the Catholic powers of Europe on a global scale. And there's a sort of debate that happens. Should it be France or should it be Spain? But Spain is always going to be the one. Cromwell himself is almost pathologically anti-Spanish, anti-Habsburg. And so there's a desire to go out into the, to have some kind of campaign, some kind of design in the Spanish New World, so that this elect nation of saints takes on the Antichrist in the New World, and it's going to be on a global scale.

Now, there have been precedents for this. As I say, there's the Elizabethan sea dog tradition. Round about the late 1620s until the early 1630s, there's a group of adventurers who are essentially a at Charles I's personal rule, which is the 11 years in which Charles rules without Parliament. And they have this providential Puritan worldview and they want to settle an island called providence which they name providence island which is just off the coast of nicaragua it actually belongs to colombia now but it's right in the heart of spain's new world um and it fails it's a it's a failure it's taken back by Spain at the third attempt in 1640, just as the Civil War is taking place. It's never been a happy place. It is, for example, the first place in the British Empire

where slaves outnumbered free people. So we're right at the beginning of the English slave trade here. It's not easy to equip in the way that Barbados is, which is also being settled at this point, which is out in the Eastern Caribbean. This is right next to the Spanish fleet, which is there in Hispaniola, which is there in Cuba, and is there obviously on the mainland. And it's a hell of a deal. There are lots of English traders out there who are happy to deal with the Spanish, and the Spanish are happy to deal with them, despite whatever the King of Spain forbids,

or whatever any regime in Britain looks down upon, because money is money. And, you know, these people are more concerned with profit than they are with prophecy or providence you know that's that's just the way they get they're happy to get their hands dirty um and this fails but the idea of this taking on the new world remains a strong impulse among a certain type of Puritan. And there's an interesting figure who's the catalyst to all of this, who's a person called Thomas Gage. Thomas Gage is born into a recusant family, and like many sons of well-to-do recusants,

his father wishes him to become a Jesuit priest in Douai. But he doesn't follow that path. Against his father's wishes, he goes down to Spain and becomes a Dominican. And in doing so, he eventually ends up in Central America. As a Catholic, he takes on a Spanish name, he's a brilliant linguist this figure. He says he's going to the Philippines which is then the capital of Spain's Empire in Asia but he doesn't. He steps off in Central America and becomes a real observer of the indigenous people there. The Pokémon Maya

whose language he speaks. And he writes this up in his travelogues. He becomes one of the first, well, I think the first person to describe tamales, for example. He talks about chocolate as a drink and warns people, you know, this drink will make you fat. He speaks these languages. It's an extraordinary journey to the heart of this place. And I think the only non-Hapsburg citizen to be there in the New World like this as an observer and as a practitioner. But eventually, over this long period, doubt set in. He has some kind of religious doubt. He goes back to Spain. He goes back to Britain, England, and then eventually settles there and has some kind of conversion experience to the Church of England. And he actually

turns on Catholicism. And he gets into contact with John Thurlow who is Cromwell's spymaster and eventually Cromwell himself and he describes in this remarkable travelogue called The English American his experiences there but he also says, look the Spaniard is vulnerable there

and I know how we're going to do this. And he suggests an attack on Hispaniola, which is now Haiti and the Dominican Republic, a large island. He says it's vulnerable. Didn't Drake take it himself? He doesn't tell you how long Drake took it for, but he does say, you know, if we're the inheritors of this English providential tradition, we've got to go out there. There's another person who also talks about this, a person

called Thomas Modiford, who also suggests a project of this type. And he is thinking about attacking the mainland there, perhaps the Spanish main around what is now Colombia, Panama. But eventually, after a few meetings, and Lambert's against this, Cromwell's for it, speaking crudely, they decide to embark on a project which eventually comes to be known as the Western Design which is to take this very large navy out into there and attack and take Hispaniola, the island of Hispaniola. Land a Viking longship on island shores

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a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. And how does it go? It doesn't go well. It is really the first catastrophe that the regime has faced. And there is a sense in which Providence, this providential idea, has really become hubristic. They don't prepare the fleet well at all. They're warned by several agents who've been out there in the Caribbean, old Caribbean hands that say, you know, you've got to get the water.

They've got to have water. They've got to have resources. They've got to have proper tropical clothing. And this is largely gnawed. And it's very, very poorly provisioned, which is not something one expects of the Cromwellian regime so far, and the army, which has had very efficient quartermasters for its people. And it attacks Hispaniola, And it attacks Hispaniola and it is defeated very, very easily.

The ideas of foraging from the land, for example, which armies are used to in places like Ireland, for example, simply doesn't work on Hispaniola. They're not used to the kind of tropical rain. They're not used to the scarcity of water. They find out that some of the rivers are poisoned by copper. There are all kinds of disasters that go wrong. And it fails. There's a second prize they get, which they consider a bit of a booby prize.

It's called Jamaica. Yeah, I've heard of it. Which, of course, ends up very well, which which is interestingly enough, the last private possession of the Columbus family in the New World at the time. And for that reason it's been rather neglected. The Spanish aren't really that bothered about it. There's a small force there. But the force under William Penn and Robert Venables takes that island and then Penn races back to England and Robert Venables takes that island.

And then Penn races back to England to try and proclaim some kind of good news. Venables follows him. They arrive home. They're put in the tower when news is finally realised what's happened. Venables ends up in pretty much disgrace. Penn, funnily enough, becomes a major figure during the Restoration. But it's a disaster, and it's the first disaster that they've faced. And Cromwell is there thinking, you know, why has God withdrawn his will?

has God withdrawn his will? What's gone wrong? And his conclusion is that the moral reformation has not been sufficient. There has been rebellions.

There's a rebellion called the Penrodic Rising in the west of the country that's preceded this, which is, we talk about royalist conspiracies quite a lot in the book. But this has led to a model of what becomes, the response to this is the model

of what becomes the rule of the major generals, which is notorious action, whereby the country is, the England of Wales, this is, is divided up into regions on a sort of county basis and handed over to a major general to administrate. Now, one of those things is to, is as a response to the Royalist uprising,

which peters out, it's really nothing at all. But the regime becomes concerned, whether rightly or wrongly, about this. And it introduces a decimation tax that, as the name suggests, takes 10% of the earnings of property and assets of royalists. and assets of royalists. And this is one of the means of imposing this, is the rule of the major generals, who work in alliance,

or try to work in alliance, with the local gentry, the local establishment that we were talking about before, you know, JPs, Justice of the Peace, various things like that, who some are sympathetic, some are not. And so there's a lot of resentment fostered around this period between local elites and the people imposed upon them, who are often criticised as being low-born. And some of them genuinely are quite low-born. One is a thimble maker, for example, who's suddenly running three counties or something.

And there's a lot of resentment about that, about breaking the old traditions, which the regime hasn't done up to that point. And there's a lot of resentment about this. But the real thing that's resented by the wider population is the kind of moral reformation. Things like race-horsing and race meetings have always had this kind of cavalier aspect.

Is this the bit we have to talk about Christmas? Well Christmas has long been banned before that. The ban on Christmas goes back to about 1644 or something I think and is made official in 1647 as I remember. But they simply don't do anything about it. But Christmas is still practiced widely, Christ-tide as they call it, to take away the Catholic mass there. But this is resented, you know, the kind of licensing of pubs, and it's resented by a lot of JPs as well, you know, this brings in income, they don't want to have to process all these various people who aren't really doing anything particularly wrong.

And so this causes real resentment. So the big enemy is what? Gambling? Gambling, fornication, drinking, you know, the usual stuff. Although, you know, Cromwell and his brother, you know, they drink, they smoke. They're not particularly Puritan. They're not the most zealous of puritans in their kind of social life they like music for example they've even got some erotic art in the in in their in in hampton court in various places but it's it's resented in a way

it's it's fairly low level resentment but it's lingering there and it's burning away and it's not something that people like, but this is the moral reformation, this is the moral reformation. And as the saints come to the fore, and there are a few things that happen, you know, that really reveal the fractures of the regime between those who want a kind of old settlement. They can see things getting out of hand. There's resentment at the role of these major generals in parliament. There's resentment in the wider population towards this. And there's a demand among some people who we might call, this is being very crude, but we might call the civilian faction among the regime. Some people call them the kinglings, to try and settle the nation on something like the ancient constitution.

Because there's great fears, after 1657, for Cromwell's life itself. There's an assassination attempt by a person called Miles Syndicum, which is in a sense the other gunpowder plot, in which it's all there. It's known about by Thurlow that the pitch and tar is there above Cromwell's chambers. He's going to be killed and it's discovered and this is a very, very real part and it focuses minds on the succession. If Cromwell goes, all bets are off. Who is going to succeed him? On what basis is there to be a succession? Because what we've got at the moment is something like they think as far as the instruments of government goes a nominated person who's elected but there's no sense in which this should be done before or should be done after Cromwell's death it's all very very uncertain and there's a great deal of

uncertainty and there's a great deal of religious uncertainty because at this roundabout the same time just before the gunpowder plot of the syndicate plot there is a very very controversial event when a Quaker and Quakers at this point are not the nice people who hang around in that meeting houses that we know these people are dangerous free-thinking figures, atheistic, considered by some people. I mean, my God, even allow women equal rights. This is this advanced kind of fare. And there's a figure called James Naylor, who becomes one of the most prominent figures. The leader, of course, of the Quakers is George Fox.

The leader of course of the Quakers is George Fox, but they've acquired a terrible reputation among the magistrates and the JPs because of their refusal to doff their hats and various other things. But they're strong in the army, they've often been strong in the army, and James Nehley himself was a quartermaster in John Lambert's regiment. But what he does is he commits an act of blasphemy by riding through the streets of Bristol in imitation of Christ on a donkey. He's got long, long hair. And he's arrested for this. It's quite obscene. There's no doubt that most people see this as blasphemous.

He claims he's doing Christ's work, but this is serious blasphemy. And there's been events like this, but this becomes the one that people focus on. And he's eventually tried before Parliament. Parliament decide to put him on trial. Now, there's a problem here because the blasphemy law, this is what he's been accused of, has been reformed by the government so that the most you can get is six months imprisonment. I think even third-time offenders only get banishment and there's people in there, particularly Presbyterians, who want this man killed, executed. But unfortunately there's no law there, so they have to try themselves. And it's terrible lack of due process takes place. And eventually, and it shows the divisions

between two sides, between those who are Presbyterian and hardline Presbyterians in the religious divides, and those who are more for liberty, such as John Lambert. And Naylor is eventually the punishment. He's settled as a flogging imprisonment, and he has a bee burnt onto his head. It's pretty brutal stuff that happens to him, but he's spared a death sentence, which some have been calling for. And so all these crises are happening at the same time. We've got the major generals have gone for election for the second parliament, and they've

not found quite the support they expected. They've gone to the country, do you back us or do you not, and they found that they don't really back them quite as much as they thought because they're living in little bubbles among their own in their places and not talking to the people on the ground, so you have that problem. This is compounded by this withdrawal of Providence, this doubt and uncertainty that's happened, this religious division that's become apparent in the Naylor trial, and this terrible fear of what will happen

when there is no longer a Cromwell. How do we deal with this? And that's the great problem that the regime faces. Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt, and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series, Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed

not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. I've got to scooch forward. I could go on and talk about this all day, but where does Cromwell,

when he does eventually die a year or two later, does he die quickly or what arrangements does he make for what should succeed him? Well, he doesn't. I mean, I think this is the problem. He is the civilian faction of whom a person called Roger Boyle, Lord Boyle, who is from the Cork family of Boyles, has worked out a kind of constitutional plan to offer Cromwell the crown. And Cromwell does consider this quite strongly. He can see the issue of the problem because the succession in itself is you know do you have an elected king do you have an elected protector do you have a heredity

protector or a hereditary king now i think most people uh if it's to conform to the ancient constitution as it's called would want a hereditary king. And that's the position that's what becomes the humble petition and advice offers him. And he does consider it. He goes off again, one of these dialogues with God, and he comes back and he tells them, you know, I cannot build Jericho again. What God has destroyed, I cannot rebuild. So he turns it down, he

maintains Lord Protector, but this huge problem remains. And when Cromwell dies on September the 3rd, again 1658, there is no real settlement as such. There's a kind of mystery about it. It's believed that he nominates Richard, who's his eldest son, who's completely unprepared for this, the most unprepared adult head of state that Britain's ever had. That's going some.

That is going some. Now, Henry, who is a much more able figure, I think, and has been running Ireland, would be the more obvious person. But then if you nominate the younger son, that's not going to satisfy those who seek the hereditary principle. So there's all kinds of things going on. We don't know whether Thurlow, the spymaster was told that by Cromwell that Richard was nominated Nominations never a good confessor Queen and there's a lot of sketchy kind of moving of hands and never good pointings. Yeah, but whatever Which does become the second Lord protector?

Still all this uncertainty about succession and in fact the Royalists in exile, those who think, well the game's up, you know, this is it now. But Richard doesn't really have the loyalty of the army, he doesn't have the army at all, and the army sort of spirals out of control with its demands again. People like Heselrig and Vane are on the march again. People like Milton are causing trouble. John Lambert, who's been off the scene since the Instrument of Government disappeared, he's suddenly being talked about again. And there's this radical army. And to cut a long story short short eventually Lambert and George Monk

who is the head of the Scottish army essentially face off George Monk enables the rump to return and eventually eventually it's seen that the only way out of this mess is a return of Charles. George Monk is a remarkable figure, isn't he? Because he marches south from Scotland. His forbearance has played a decisive role in British history because he could have, in his post-Dalek Nando the Great, he could have fought his other generals, established his own...

Why do you think he decided that he could... putting personal ambition aside and effectively facilitating the return of Charles II? I think it was the only option left. I don't think there was. It was so spiralling out of control. The city of London was in a mess. Money was fleeing. The country was in a bad shape.

Charles was there available. And I suppose to a certain extent through the adoption of a regal manner and regal kind of institution I mean if you think about Cromwell's funeral it's credibly ostentatious affair this idea of royalism probably doesn't seem so bad anymore. And the vast majority of the population has not been converted away from the prayer book. They're happy with the ancient constitution as long as it can be secured. The one thing that's attractive about Cromwell's regime, that's Oliver Cromwell's regime, is that it's stable. It's strong and stable in that Hobbesian sense. And so people can live with that, whatever their own personal

predilections may be. But once it's suggested that this settlement is there with Charles II on the old bottom, as they call it, then it no longer seems so repellent. And, of course, people cross sides. I mean, obviously, George Monk becomes Albemarle. He's often there. Great lands, not just in London, but in the north of England and the United States as well. America then is.

And people like William Penn, who was the admiral on the Western design, who's been very, very close to Cromwell, is there with Charles as he returns. So, I mean, you know, typical, I mean, this is just part of history, it's a big shift, you know, the Vicar of Bray scenario is always there. and that's the return but of course it isn't settled what happens people talk about it being a revolution but a revolution in what sense that Britain has endured here

is it a revolution in the sense of like a French revolution or a Russian revolution of fracturing or is it a wheel coming full circle is it that kind of revolution it's probably a bit of both in a sense, because no king ever really has the kind of power again that Charles I had. But it still takes years to work out what is the full settlement. And as you say, in 1688, 1689, 1690, there's elements of that. But it's not settled in 1660, 1661 at all.

Yeah, so the Republic, what is your, I mean, you've gotten to a bit there, but just briefly, what is your sense of what the Republic means in British history after that? Does the Republic loom very large in the events of the 1690s, British history after that? Does the Republic loom very large in the events of the 1690s, in the Hanoverian succession in the early 18th, in the increasing importance of Parliament, for example, in the 18th century? A bit like Magna Carta's relationship with the birth of Parliament, what is the relationship between Britain becoming a sort of constitutional balanced government and the Republic? Well, I think what never disappears again is the power of parliament the parliament really is this this important institution there's been significant

legal reform there and i just there is a faction what more than a faction I suppose, that's there, there is committed to the Crown in Parliament rather than just the Crown. I mean hence the division ultimately of Whigs and Tories of where they stand. What has happened, I suppose what eventually happens, is that so far as the Whigs are concerned, what becomes the Whigs, there is the idea that a king or a monarch cannot act illegally. And yet there's also, I suppose, on the Tory side, what becomes the Tory side, there is this sense that one cannot act violently against the king. And so you have this strange, what T.S. Eliot calls, the fire and the rose. You have this strange melding. I mean, you might even say, you know,

people learn to, just learn to differ. Who knows what is the full unraveling there, but it takes a long while for what has happened in the mid 17th century to really work itself out in the system. But what he does mean, of course, and I think there's a strong role for this, is there's no revolution in the modern sense in Britain.

And I don't think we can really call what happened in the mid-17th century a revolution. I know people do, but I don't think we can really think of it in the tradition of the French, the Russian, or even the American Revolution. Do you think it's, final question, do you think it's too simplistic to look at what's interesting about Britain is that it goes through radical change, social change, political change, without there being this revolutionary event? Do you think it's too simplistic to say that

from Charles II and the kind of aristocratic elite, the aristocrat, for the next 200 years that follow, 300 years, that they remember, there's memories of that, and therefore pragmatism will, there's a pragmatism in that British elite that you don't see amongst the ultras of France, of Prussia, of Russia,

who eventually go to the wall. Perhaps. It's a very difficult question to answer that, what is different? I've thought about it a lot. There's not a revolutionary tradition in Britain really, particularly, because it happened too early. And I think what I've tried to present in this book is one thing above all, is the fact that we are living in the mid-17th century in a deeply religious age. As I said at the beginning, you can't disentangle the religious from the political.

They are the one thing. It is not a post-Enlightenment revolution. Not at the one thing. It is not a post-enlightenment revolution. A Rousseau revolution. Not at all. And in many ways that's quite a good thing. I don't think, as it worked out, which is completely contingent, of course it is, and I don't want to suggest there is such a thing as English providence, but it worked out pretty well in the end. Mainly because, and this may be one of the reasons why it's relatively ignored, is the fact that it actually had relatively little consequence

or appears to do, or at least it's difficult to work out what those relevances and resonances are in the modern. I always wonder if that, you know, the House of Lords blinks in 1832, in 1911. I always wonder if that's a sort of, you know, in a way that the continental counterparts don't seem to be able to. And I wonder if that sort of sense of pragmatism might be related to the 17th century.

Could be. I'm probably drawing too much. It could be. There is a sense in which, you know, in a two-party system, and that may well be breaking up at the moment, whether that's weak Tory, whether that's Tory-liberal, whether that's Tory liberal, whether that's the Conservative Labour

there are kind of two strands that shift and change I mean we might be going into something quite different now who knows but traditionally it's been that sort of shift of between the two that almost represent opposite poles of human nature but we all embody in some way that's a rather providential way of looking at it but there you go that was Paul lay thank you very much Providence lost it's in the title the rise and fall of Cromwell's protectorate good luck with it yes and don't forget history today as well no absolutely everyone subscribe to history's day the best what do you describe subscribe to History Today, the best... What do you describe? The best history period of the world for the...

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