Dan Snow's History Hit - The Census

Episode Date: March 20, 2021

Here in the UK, it's census time! Today, I'm joined on the podcast by one of the nations favourite family historians Dr Michala Hulme who certainly knows her way around a historical census. The first census was back in 1801 so we now have over 200 years of census information. We discuss why the census was first created, how the census can give us a real insight into how people lived their lives and how the census has changed and evolved over time. Please fill out your census as it provides vital information not just for the government, but most importantly for future historians to understand what was going on.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History. It's census time here in the UK. I think it's census time in the US as well. That's good. We need to keep a note of what's going on in these countries. And I've got Dr. Michaela Hume. She's a lecturer in public history at Manchester Metropolitan University. And she is one of the nation's favourite family historians. You've seen her on the BBC, various other TV shows and all sorts of places. She knows her way around historical censuses better than anybody. First census back in 1801, we've now got well over 200 years of these snapshots of our national life. They're fantastic things. Go and fill your census out, everybody. Vital information in there, of course, for government providing services to all of us

and for our ability to vote, but most importantly of all, to future historians who want to look back, have a nose around our lives and work out what was going on. The first sentence was during the great series of wars against France at the end of the 18th, early 19th centuries. If you want to watch documentaries about those wars, you can do so at historyhit.tv. It's like Netflix for history. You're going to absolutely love it. You go on there, you pay a little subscription, tiny, you won't even notice it. And then that's your contribution towards creating some of the world's best history documentaries. We're getting better all the time. Lots of exciting stuff going on.

So head over to history.tv and get that done. But in the meantime, everybody, here is Dr. Michaela Hume talking about the census. Michaela, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you very much for having me, Dan. I'm a massive fan, so I'm very excited to be here. Well, I'm a massive fan of yours, and I'm also a massive fan of censuses. What's the plural of census? Sensai? Census? Sensai. I mean, I'm a massive fan of sensai. And in the old days, people thought it was weird. Now, of course, everyone loves them because of all the family history stuff, don't they?

They're an astonishing expression of what we can do to kind of measure everyone in the country. Like, they're incredibly ambitious, aren't they? When you go back to 1801, I mean, this must have been a kind of extraordinary idea. You know what? I'm so excited that you love census because I love the census record. And we're quite lucky in our job because we do get excited, don't we, quite a lot when we find a new piece of history or uncover something that we didn't know before. But the census record for me as a historian and a genealogist is such a key document because we can extract so much information from it. And yes, the census record did start in 1801

and it's taken every 10 years. And the first few were just like a head count. So we tend to not use them. Our census records in terms of information really get good from the 1841 census onwards. And we can use them for so many things. So when the census record is introduced, our population statistics become more accurate. Mortality statistics become more accurate. So not only can we use them as genealogists and looking into our family history, but also we can really use them for research as historians. Britain was at war in 1801. One of the longest and most intense wars in British history,

the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars, was that all connected with the need to try and get a handle on what everyone's doing in the country and work out if they're taxing them appropriately and all that kind of stuff and impressing them for military service? Is it connected with war? Yeah, so it is this drive to sort of understand what's going on in the country. Now, we use them, historians and genealogists for research purposes but the government uses them for different things and one of those is to get a sense of who's in the country what they're doing for a job and also what homes are occupied and are unoccupied so what buildings are occupied and unoccupied and you really get a sense of that now

the early census records like I say they're just headcount. So it really is the government just trying to sort of keep tabs on, okay, how many people are in the country? And it really is just a headcount. But from 1841 onwards, we do get more information. So the government now wants to know more information about where we're from, where we live, what we're doing for an occupation. What was the upshot of the first census? Did the government go,

huh, I had no idea so many people were living in Manchester? Like, was there any things that changed? Or was it just a fact-gathering exercise? Yeah, it was purely a fact-gathering exercise. But we start to see, as the census progressed, that they want to know different things. So, for example, on the 1841 census, it's very basic. It's just kind of your name, the address of where you live, your age, and they round the ages down, which is great

for me because I'm in my late 30s. But on the 1841 census, I would have been 35. So yeah, so they round the ages down. And it's very basic. When we start to progress, for example, when we get to the 1851 census and we start going to the 1851, 1861, they want to know more things. So they want to know now if you have a disability, that's important to them. They also want to know not just, for example, whether you were born in the parish or, quote, in foreign parts, they now want to know where you were born, where you're from. And most interesting for me, I think the real change in the census is the 1911 census, because that gives us so much information. I mean, that gives us, for example, how many rooms are in your house. So for the first

time, if you haven't found a photograph of something, you can get a sense of how big was the house that somebody lived in, for example. Also, for the first time on the 1911 census, you get to see the person's handwriting. So you get to see their own hand, which is interesting. Before that, the enumerator would have just gone round, would have collected in the records and would have made sure that they were filled in, not always accurately because often literacy rates weren't great in the Victorian times. So they weren't always filled in accurately. But the 1911 census gives us so much information. It tells us how long people were married. It tells us how many children were born alive, how many children had died. The 1911 census is, for me, the real turning point

in terms of extracting information from censuses. And ask about what it tells us about people in a sec, because that's what you do so brilliantly on your podcast and you talk about so wonderfully. But what does it tell us about government? Why does the government want to know all this stuff? Does this show that the government is transforming from a aristocratic clique of dudes who just wish to make war more efficiently into something that cares about well various things but one of them is the well-being of the people that live on these islands well due to the nature of the government in the 19th century, don't forget this whole laissez-faire, taking a step back approach. I would probably say, knowing what I know about

the Victorian times, because my whole PhD is how the Victorians buried the dead, so I spent a lot of time looking at mortality statistics. Knowing what I know about the Victorians, I would say that the government really didn't start to care about the needs of the people until it affected them, which is we're now moving into the second half of the 19th century and suddenly the middle classes and the aristocrats are worried that they're going to get sick. So they think, oh, I know, let's start to introduce some reforms. So those lowly working classes that are making us ill will now clean themselves up and we'll get rid of back-to-back housing and we'll do all these things so knowing what I know I'd say

the early census records are probably not the government trying to care about the people I hate to be sceptical probably not but the later censuses may be that drive towards thinking about okay where are people living what sort of homes are they living in? What sort of things are they doing for occupations and so forth? Because it's so interesting. It comes in at the same sort of time as Ordnance Survey, which for people listening abroad, the Ordnance Survey is the greatest and most wonderful British invention and institution, bar none.

It's the highest quality mapping on planet Earth and it maps every single inch of this country and it even marks pubs on its maps for everyone to go and check out. Can I just say, that's so funny actually you mentioned the Ordnance Survey because I'm aching today. I am actually doing what's called a trig point challenge where I go and I find all the highest Ordnance Survey points on my Ordnance Survey map and they're all trig points. So yesterday i did kinder scout so i literally cannot move out of this chair because of the ordnance survey maps i'm a massive fan of ordnance survey maps dude you can join our team any day if you love

ordnance survey and censuses since i then you are on team history i also by the way should say i live in the new forest so the highest point near me is about 12 meters tall. So I'm up for a trick point challenge any day of the week. Okay. So we've got this government that's like increasing an ambition to kind of note everything down and work out what's going on in these islands. Now tell me about the people. You've spent years looking at this. What are some of the things that just strike you when you're looking back now over more than 200 years of the census returns, what are the big things? How have we changed and how should we think about the people that lived our forebears? That's a really interesting one. And there's so many directions we could go with this. I mean,

I've been using the census a lot with my students. And we've been looking at, for example, people from the BAME community that lived in Manchester at the end of the Victorian period and into the Edwardian period. And I think a lot of people wrongly assume that our BAME community really grew after Windrush, and that's not the case. So census records, because we know where people came from, we can actually discover, well, our community was more diverse than what we may necessarily think. So for example, I've been tracing members of our BAME community who worked on the docks, who owned inns, who were interpreters. So this gives us an insight,

because the census lets us know where people are from, we can actually get an insight into how diverse our communities were, for example, previously to what we may have thought, which would have been Windrush. So it's great in that respect. It's also great, for example, the suffragettes use the census brilliantly, absolutely brilliantly, as a political protest device. So they deface the census record of 1911. Emily Davidson, because she wants to make out that she lives in the Palace of Westminster, famously hides in a crypt and gets caught. And they actually put on the census, hid in a crypt in Westminster Hall. They won't put that she actually resides in the Palace of

Westminster. So the suffragettes famously scribble on occupation,ragette I did Michelle Keegan's family tree and her ancestor on the census record put under occupation suffragette and the suffragettes were kind of of that opinion where they felt that because they weren't getting the vote because women didn't matter that they shouldn't write anything on the census. And don't forget, they could be prosecuted for that. But they did it as a political gesture to the government, sort of two fingers up to them because they wouldn't give them the vote. You're listening to Dan Snow's History Hits. We're talking about the census with Dr Michaela Hugh more after this. Join me, James Rogers, each week on the

history hit World Wars podcast. I meet world leading experts and the veterans who served to get to the bottom of our global conflicts. We're re-examining the stories and the strategies we think we know, as well as those secret and forgotten wars, to truly put the world back in the World wars. Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt, and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series, Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive,

but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. In terms of other forms of protest i mean obviously religions recently people being encouraged to put no religion when that option isn't necessarily given by the government yeah absolutely so religion is actually a good one there is a separate census a religious census that does take place in the middle of the 19th century but religion is quite a good one because

i use this quite a lot obviously i've already mentioned i'm a bit of a sadth century. But religion is quite a good one because I use this quite a lot. Obviously, I've already mentioned I'm a bit of a saddo, so my PhD is all about death. So I've been using the census to say, right, okay, what religion were people? Now, don't forget, the census doesn't actually tell you whether somebody is Roman Catholic or not. You would have to use a religious census for that so it doesn't give you that sort of information but it's been interesting for me to look at for example using the religious census of 1851 of if you were a particular religion when you were buried if you were buried by the state as a pauper if you were a Roman Catholic were you buried a Roman Catholic and

that wasn't always the case so I use a religious census a lot for things like that but the census in itself doesn't tell you what religion somebody was for that you're relying on birth marriage and death records or you're going to be relying on the 1851 religious census which was interesting because it showed that there were more pubs than churches which the government were really panicked about so you'll find that there was a real drive after the Napoleonic Wars finished to build more churches, because they were so concerned with what was happening in France that they felt if they built more churches and people were going to church, that they wouldn't revolt. So we do see a drive for more churches at the beginning of the 19th century. Isn't it now funny that the pub is now

seen as the dashboard of how healthy a community is? You know, it's the measurement of every village to have a pub and it's the politicians wringing their hands over the closure of pubs. It's funny, isn't it? Okay, so talk me at 1921. Let's go back 100 years because we are living through a pandemic and they had just lived through a pandemic in 1921, the survivors had. What do you think the census tells us about, well, I guess the First World War, of course, and the flu pandemic? Yeah, we are definitely going to see a lot of change in the census. I know already that the census is going to be different from the 1911 census. So we're going to have sections on the census now about education. So the government

are now interested to know how educated people are, whether that be part-time or full-time. So the government are now interested to know how educated people are, whether that be part-time or full-time. We know that some things have disappeared. So I mentioned before about how many children were born alive, how many died. That's now gone. But we do have things like divorce are now included on there. So have you been divorced? Which will be interesting.

We also know, for example, for children under the age of 15, they're going to be asked whether both parents are still alive or whether they've died. In other words, is that child an orphan? And we know that for the first time as well, the RAF units that are stationed abroad are now going to be included on the census. I am expecting a lot of change on this census. For example, in 1918, women have gone some way to getting the vote. So I'm not expecting that we're going to have any suffragette defacing the census on the 1921. But I'm expecting to see a lot of widows. And I'm expecting to see families that maybe on the 1911 census are fragmented by the 1921 due to the pandemic and obviously due to the First World War. I'm expecting that possibly we're going to see more women in employment. We know that women didn't tend to stay in employment after the First World War. They tended to go back to doing what they were doing before. But maybe we are going to see

more women in employment. Our census is still useful now that we have all these other ways of gathering information, sociology, gigantic surveying data. Is there something still unique about a census and do they have a future? I think they're definitely unique and I think that they do have a future. It's very difficult, isn't't it we're quite lucky that we still get to research or and define records in a time where people still wrote things down on paper my concern going forward is that obviously and I give my students a letter from the 19th century and they're like oh because they're not used to the handwriting everything's on a computer and once that computer goes then we've lost that record sort of thing in the present.

Censuses, I think, will be useful because it's going to give us information that maybe necessarily we wouldn't ask. And it's all on one document. It's quite personal information, isn't it, that we wouldn't ask. Now, I don't know how the government uses census records. I don't know if they use it to form policy in the present. One would imagine they probably do. But definitely, there's a 100-year closure on the census. Historians 100 years from now, I think, will find this census

really, really useful. And don't forget, the census we're filling in now has changed again. For the first time, for example, the LGBT community are going to be featured on the census. It's not just are you married or divorced or whatever. So it's been more inclusive. And I think in 100 years from now, it's going to give people just a sense of what it's like to live in 2021. Okay, last kind of bit of political question, we'll come back to individuals. Are they a bit of a battlefield? I know they are in the US because they're about voting rights, they're about constituency sizes. I mean, censuses are a kind of critical part of a functioning democracy as well. period that I study. I think they're definitely going to be used for that. It may be that we change the way we vote because of this. I don't know, to be honest, Dan. I'm not quite sure how they're going to use it in terms of the present, but no doubt they'll use it for something.

But a headcount important in a democracy. Since I was a kid, no one ever heard of a historical census, but now everyone's on them all the time because of family history. So they're all searchable online, I guess. And your grandparents, great-grandparents, they're all there, right? Oh, it's brilliant. So literally, if you can find your ancestor on the 1911 census, you can more or less go back to 1841. You're quite lucky because Snow is quite an unusual name. Obviously, you struggle more if it's a Smith or an Evans or a Jones, but you can go back to 1841. The 1921 census won't come out until January 2022 because there's this 100-year closure. The 1931 census got destroyed by a fire, so we're not going to have anything for that. It wasn't taken in 1941

because obviously we've got the war. So there is a bit of a gap. So it'll be the 1921 and then the 1951. We do have something in between called the 1939 register, which was taken on the eve of the war to find out what everyone's doing and where everyone is. But yeah, this census record, I think is going to be really important. And like what you you say you can find your ancestor in 1911 it's then really easy to go back not just people I use it to search buildings to search places I do address searches now yes they are online the census records but a lot of the major providers it does cost but for most people if you've got a library card when libraries are back open you can go into your local library and you can search them for free because they pay for the database so they are accessible you can sit in your living room and watch you on the telly dan

and go all the way back 100 and odd years just from your living rooms fascinating stuff what about you go on tell me about how far back have you gone is that what you're saying family how far back are you gone oh you're so down with the kids uh yes so i've gone pretty far back i think i've gone back to 1700 and something it was kind of one of those like you start doing yours and then you go back so far and then everybody else goes oh like you know your neighbor down the road oh can you just help me out and do me tree and then you go back so far and then everybody else goes, oh, like, you know, your neighbour down the road. Oh, can you just help me out and do me a tree? And then you kind of put yours to one side when you hit a bit of a brick wall and then do everybody else's and then forget to go back to yours.

So at some point I shall go back and revisit mine. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much coming on the podcast to tell me about the importance of the census. We should fill this in to be good citizens because we want to make sure our descendants can check out what we're up to. Tell everyone why you should fill in the census. Yeah, you can fill it in

because you are a good citizen like Dan or you can fill it in because there'll be nosy people like me in a hundred years from now that will want to know everything about you. So please fill it in just for historians and genealogists a hundred years from now. Historians, people that gossip about dead people.

Literally. Right. Thank you so much, Michaela, you star. And make sure you fill in your census, everyone. How could people find out more about you and listen to your podcast and everything? That'd be great. Yeah. So if you want to find out more about me, you can check out my website, www.michaelahume.com, or I am on social, which is Michaela underscore Hume. Brilliant. And you've got so much going on.. I strongly advise you go and do that, everybody. Thanks for coming on the pod. Thank you. I feel the hand of history

upon our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone and finished. Hope you enjoyed the podcast.

Just before you go, a bit of a favour to ask. I totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money. Makes sense. Just before you go, a bit of a favour to ask. I totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money. Makes sense. But if you could just do me a favour, it's for free.

Go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. If you give it a five-star rating and give it an absolutely glowing review, purge yourself, give it a glowing review. I'd really appreciate that. It's tough weather, the law of the jungle out there, and I need all the fire support I can get. So that will boost it up the charts.

It's so tiresome. But if you could do it, I'd be very, very grateful. Thank you.