Dan Snow's History Hit - The Crusades: Assassins vs Templars

Episode Date: April 9, 2026

For the second episode in our mini-series on the Crusades, we explore the legendary rivalry between two extraordinary medieval orders: the Assassins and the Templars. Separating myth from history, we uncover their beliefs, covert operations and lasting legacy, revealing how truth and legend became forever entwined.For this series, we're joined by Steve Tibble, author of many books on the Crusades, including 'Assassins and Templars: A Battle in Myth and Blood'.Produced by James Hickmann and McKenna Fernandez, and edited by Jhenelle White.Dan Snow's History Hit is now available on YouTube! Check it out at: https://www.youtube.com/@DSHHPodcastSign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.You can also email the podcast directly at [e-mail]. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit history hit.com slash subscribe. The Assassins versus the Templars. It's the alien versus predator of the medieval world. Whoever wins, we lose. One, a group of warrior monks in white mantles marked with those red crosses, sworn to defend pilgrims and fight for Christendom.

The other, a secretive sect hidden in mountain fortresses, striking fear into rulers through targeted, surgical, theatrical killings. Two small players, whose influence, and survival depended not only on their bravery and skill and ambition, but also on the creation of a myth of invincibility by convincing their enemies that this was a fight that they weren't going to win. Today I'm joined again by the crusading expert, the historian Steve Tibble, to look at these two secretive religious orders that have been immortalised in legend and myth. We've got the Nizari Ishmaelis, the assassins to you and me, and we've got the Templars.

Who were they really? How did these these... two groups rise to positions of power and influence. And were they truly enemies? Or just two forces caught up in the brutal, unstable, chaotic politics of the Crusades? Before we get started, you should probably go and check out the first episode in this mini-series, or this actual series. It's on the Crusades. We aired it last week. That's your sweeping guide to those holy wars that swept across the Holy Land for 200 years, pitting Christian against Islam. It's got all the juicy context you need to understand the bigger picture for this episode. So strap in, get those spurs on and enjoy.

Steve, good to see you. Very good to see you, Dan. You've got these two sort of semi-mythical, these legendary orders. Did they, they were contemporary with each other? Did they know each other? Yeah, that's the weird thing about it. On one level, they're both so larger than life that you kind of feel like they shouldn't be history. they shouldn't be real.

You know, it's kind of the aliens versus predator of the medieval world. But the reality is they knew each other, they bounced off each other, they hated each other, they had many different kinds of relationships, and they were in the same place at the same time. It's incredibly weird. Weirdly, I'm guessing, almost quite good for their brand to have a bit of yin and yin going on. Yeah, there's definitely that. There's also a kind of interplay between effectively their method. The kind of brand they projected, which is they are both, on most empirical levels, they're small fish and small fry in a big, dangerous pond.

But they both choose the same kind of Darwinistic approach, which is they're like the tiny animal that has a display and a kind of killer app that allows them to be much bigger than they really are. And it's wonderful just seeing how these two tiny groups project themselves in history. Branding. Love it. Let's get into the backstory. Let's start with the assassins. Where are we? Geography.

What is their nature? Yeah. Yeah. Well, just to be pedantic, start off with, I'm a historian, so, you know, it's good to be pedantic. That's what we like.

We're talking assassins with an uppercase A here. And that's a very important distinction because this is a particular group of individuals. It's a sect, in effect. It's a religious sect. Whereas if you look in the dictionary now, you get lots of references to the, mafia and contract killers.

And I mean, clearly there's an overlap. There's a reason why contract killers are called assassins nowadays. And it's because there is a linkage with this religious sect. But back in the 12th century, which is mostly what we're talking about, they were very much an oppressed minority, a small religious subset. The proper name for them was Nizari Ishmaelis. and so they're an offshoot from Ishmaelism. Ishmaelism is an offshoot from Shiism and Shiism is an offshoot from Islam.

That's a very simplified version of things, but it does mean that there is a faction of splitters from splitters from splitters. So you can imagine to many mainstream Muslims, particularly Sunni Muslims, they would be seen as heretics. Even mainstream ishmaelis were often trying to kill them as well. You know, so we're really talking about people who are on the extreme of their religious beliefs,

but are very strong in that belief. And is there a geographical centre as well? Yes, indeed. So they start off in Egypt where the Fatimid Ishmaeliz are. And they form in 1094, there's a split. Their leader, Nizar, is killed in kind of infighting amongst the Ishmaelis in Egypt. And his followers, instead of doing the sensible thing, you might think, which is to just call it quits and fall in line with everybody else.

So they say, no, we're not going to do this. We're going to go with our line of thinking. And they go off to Persia. So they go all the way from Egypt to Persia. And Persia at the time is controlled by Turks, who are foreign entrance into the region, and they're also Sunnis. So you get this kind of double whammy. So these Nazari Ishmaelis are heretics in.

in Persia, Iran. And they effectively start something that's like the Vietnam War, a kind of a nationalist ideological war against their Sunni overlords. And in doing so, they discover two things, really. One is that they've got a great methodology. You know, so they are tiny a number. They are hated by everybody. They're surrounded.

They don't have the big Turkic armies of, you know, thousands of gans. cavalry. So what do they do? They choose the real Darwinistic approach, which is to be fit for purpose. So they're fittest rather than fatest. And they know, they understand that they can really leverage power by killing one person. So if you have a tiny group of highly committed people, they can get places that an army of 10,000 cavalry can't go to. And you can use that as a really deadly weapon. I think the key thing is they understand that, that a good sniper is better than a thousand guys with shotguns. And then they move from Persia into Syria, which is where we're mostly going to be talking about.

And it's where a lot of the current legends of the assassins come from. The old man of the mountain is a Syrian assassin figure. And the characters that appear in Assassin's Creed and current cultural history are very much from the Syrian assassin Ishmael. background. But they're territorially based. They conquer, they sort of have what castles, they have lands, they collect rent,

do they? I mean, how does that work? Yeah, no, that's interesting. So in Persia they carve out their own little niche in the northern mountains. In Syria, they eventually do the same. They first of all try a different approach. They have this kind of

blueprint where they think they can go into a city, they can influence the individual who's who's in control of the city, and then they can kind of insinuate their way into power. And they try that a couple of times. Once in Aleppo, once in Damascus, big, big Muslim cities. Both times it works for a while. So they, you know, for a few years, they're great mates with the warlord who's in charge.

The trouble is as soon as he dies, suddenly they're heretics who are resented and there's an absolute massacre. So this happens twice Aleppo and then Damascus. And then after that, they kind of realize this methodology isn't working. Let's go for the Persian blueprint, which is move ourselves away from everybody else, find a nice home in the mountains, get a nice bunch of castles and hold out there. And that's exactly what they do. And it's very impressive. I mean, there's even, I think there's talk of up to 70 assassin castles. I don't believe that figure.

I mean, certainly not big castles. But they had a whole network of castles in the mountains of what are now, I guess, Lebanon and southern Turkey, Syria. So they were able to create their own kind of little princeton, principality in the middle of probably one of the most dangerous and crowded places on the planet with this tiny community. So really it explains why they developed the methodology they did.

you know, they're in the most dangerous place on earth. They're small. They're heretics. They're hated. You only survive by being even more dangerous than the guys around you. You're listening to Dan Snow's history. We're going to be back after this break. Right.

Well, let's talk about the Templars. They're sort of slightly warped mirror image on the Christian side of things. So they are, they're not territorial-based, are they? They're not in some senses. They're international. But in a way, the ishmaelers are international as well. They're an idea that head office is really in northern Persia, I guess, even though most of the action we're talking about is in the Holy Land.

So the Templars, bizarrely, occupy pretty much the same time and space. In fact, so closely that they do actually bounce off each other quite a few times. So if you think about it, the Ishmaelis, the assassins are created in 1094. Within a few months of that, the first crusader's launched. So almost identical timing, the Crusades are launched, and you find European knights going out to the Middle East to try and recover the old Christian territories, the old Holy Land places of Jerusalem and Bethlehem and Nazareth and so on.

The key problem for the Crusaders and for the papacy is that when they recover Jerusalem, which is a huge piece of luck, and it's not really something they could have expected. But they do, they capture Jerusalem. But then most of the lads on the crusade go home because they need to go home, you know, they've been on the road for years

and they see it as a one-off event. But for the papacy, recovering the Holy Land is just the beginning. You know, you've got to look after it and defend it. And the only way you can defend it is by having a standing army. And the Templars and the hospitlers, who are another military order,

were an attempt to create this kind of international force. I was going to say peacekeeping force, but it's not like that at all. It's almost mercenary, you might say, so sort of funded from lots, not a national army. It's an international army. It's, I never know really what mercenary means in the Middle Ages. You know, because everybody's got to, you know, a girl's got to live.

They all need to get paid. But they are equally all volunteers and they're there because they love their religion and their community and they're trying to do the right thing. So bizarrely you find just at the same time as the Ishmaelis, Nazari Ishmaelis, in other words the assassins are building up a castle network on the borders of the Crusader states in between what became known as the County of Tripoli, which is Lebanon, and the principality of Antioch, which would be Syria, Turkey. The assassins and the Templars were both building castles in the same region.

I mean, they were crazily close to each other. And actually, for many, many years, for most of the 200 years they were together, the Templars were the only people crazy enough and brave enough to extort money from the world's most dangerous people who are the assassins. So they had this weird, fractious relationship. They also both developed very, very similar methodologies. You know, the Templars like the assassins are very few. number, they're surrounded, you know, they're surrounded by bigger, much bigger Muslim

politics. And they need to punch above their weight. And the thing about the Templars, like the assassins, is that they realized that if you've got only a small number of guys, you have to make everything count. So they pretty much adopted a similar methodology. So with the assassins, you knew that if you, if you piss them off, they would chase you forever. You wouldn't come out of the mosque without having to look over your shoulder because even for decades they would follow you and there would be somebody there to kill you

or your wife or your children. And the same with the Templars except on the battlefield a tiny number of Templars would just identify where your standard was and they would charge at you and they wouldn't always get to you but they're very difficult to stop and it's almost a kind of opposite but parallel. You know so the Templars you knew were in trouble because they're coming right in your face. And with the assassins, you know you're in trouble because they're coming right at your back. And between the two of them, they had this same extraordinarily effective way of effectively creating a kind of a halo effect. So these small number of guys, through the power of branding and fear and leveraging this brand of death,

were able to project power in a way that even much larger groups couldn't dream of doing. Amazing. And the Templars, they could come from all over what we might call Christenum, so all over much of Europe. Yeah, absolutely. And then they'd arrive in the Holy Land. And there would, but people would also, they'd be fundraised. People would be passing the hat around from Ireland to, you know, parts of Iberia through right across. Yeah. Raising money for the Templars.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, relatively small numbers of guys. And in the, in the eastern Mediterranean, you might say they're warmongers. You know, the eastern Mediterranean, these are the guys who are muscular. They're literally the militant arm of the paper seed. They're the ones who are probably Europe's finest soldiers, volunteers who are superbly trained and disciplined. But the same group of Templars in Europe and Western Europe are lawyers.

They're inventing investment banking. They're diplomats. They're schmoozes. They're guys who are peacemongers. Because the last thing they want is for European powers to be fighting. What they want is for European kings. to have enough money and time and peace to be able to go on crusade themselves.

And they also does shuffle money from the west into the east, hence the investment banking. Yeah, people say they invent international banking. Because so someone in Ireland gives a few coins to the Templars, someone in Jerusalem is able to withdraw that from a bank. Yeah, absolutely. By head office in Paris.

You know, they could make those transfers. so has happened. And in some ways, it doesn't look good. It makes them look greedy. You know, it makes them look like they're dealing with money. But in reality, they were doing it just as a way of helping the war effort. And when they were closed down, they were far less rich than anybody expected because it was just, you know, it was money going through the bank. But they were often on the verge of bankruptcy because the money was being spent on castles. Expensive business, expensive business trying to maintain soldiers and castles. Those castles are like aircraft carriers. Extraordinary. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so we've got these two groups. Did they, did they, did they, did they, you mentioned that they were extorting money? I mean, did they, did they explicitly, did they regard each other as a primary enemy or in the ever shifting mosaic of the Holy Land? Did they sometimes find themselves on different sides? Yeah. No, that's a very good point. The, I think it's, I forget who it was, we've said it, Palmerston, maybe, maybe Salisbury. You know, there was, there was an English prime minister who said, her majesty's government doesn't have friends.

it has interests. And both of these groups are very much like that. So the assassins, everybody assumes that they're completely fanatical nutters and against the Crusaders. Whereas in reality,

they often fought on the same side as the Crusaders. They actually allied themselves with the Crusaders in many cases. In fact, there's one wonderful instance where they negotiate so closely with the Christians and with King Amorik of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem that

that they were coming into a very close alliance. The Christians even believed that they might be coming open to conversion, which I actually doubt, but they were certainly cozying up. And ironically, they were philosophically much more open-minded than many of the other people. They were much more open-minded than, say, Catholic Christians or Sunni Muslims at the time. They used to read philosophy. They had Plato by their bedside and so on. I mean, it's not impossible that they would have cozed it up.

And they were becoming so close that the Templars who were their neighbors and extortionists and landlords really hated it. And there was an agreement pretty much signed. And it was just being brought back to the Assassins' castles by their diplomats. and there was a diplomatic convoy coming from Jerusalem back into the assassins' territories, escorted up to the border by the King of Jerusalem, who'd given them cast iron guarantees of safety. And as soon as the Frankish bodyguards peeled off, a Templar force commanded by a guy called Walter de Meenil,

who's like a Hollywood cardboard caricature hitman, He's got one eye. He's got scarring all over the place. This, him and his lads just piled in to the assassin diplomats and budged them, killed every single one because they couldn't bear the idea of their creatures, you know, who they hated but also extorted money from, going into bed with someone else. And the King of Jerusalem went absolutely bonkers and tried to hang Walter and his colleagues. and it almost came to civil war. Luckily for the Templars, poor Amelric or dear Amelric died in the process.

The papacy were just trying to knock a few heads together to stop it getting into civil war. But Walter only survived because Amalric died of dysentery, I think. And so we should come on to the thing that they're famous for, which is the assassinations. I mean, to what extent is this true, or is it their branding or is the stories that were told about them and the whispers that have gone on through the centuries. No, I think it's a lovely one. It's a lovely case study in branding image and how that bleeds into legend. I used the word bleed, you know, in a very real sense with both of these groups because

their brand was based on blood, really. It is a promise of death that they both survived by, which means that what they did is not always obvious how much of it is true because they weren't really in a position to deny it because they rather enjoyed the negative legends. So if you just get back to basics, both groups had a methodology where the sniper rifle is better than the shotgun. So they both realized that by taking out a main man, you could have a big impact and they were both impervious to that themselves because they were corporations rather than families. Most of the political bodies of the political bodies of around them, almost all of them, were family-run businesses.

There was a warlord and then his subordinates. Exactly. And you've got wives, you've got nephews. You know, say in the case of Saladin, you know, you've got him. He's got a favorite nephew. He's got wives. He's got children. You know, which is great on one level.

It's all very cozy. Good at Christmas. But you're very vulnerable. You know, this makes you incredibly vulnerable. If you kill Saladin, who knows what happens to the Iubid Empire. You kill his nephew, who's, you know, he's thinking about, his real favourite, then, you know, something really changes and there's a chance of completely destroying them. Whereas if you kill the old man of the mountain, there's another

one by Tuesday. You know, it's basically a job title rather than an individual. If you kill the master of the Templars, they don't care. I mean, you just get a more angry bunch of Templars with a new master by Wednesday morning. So they have this methodology that exploits other people's weaknesses, but they're not prone to that weakness themselves. And the assassins, the reason why we talk about assassins, you know, just as much in the godfather or, you know, sopranos, is because they really made an art of it. Now, I think it's going too far to say that they invented terrorism or they invented political murder because, you know, human beings are horrible. There's been plenty of it. Yeah, exactly.

You know, Romans did a lot of it. Greeks did a lot of it. I mean, you know. Nero sent assassins to kill his mum. Well, yeah, you know, that's not very nice. But yeah, but it's been around since time immemorial. But the assassins were unusual in making it their primary lever. So Nero, you know, had armies, you know, and he had different forms.

He had pryorians. He had legions. What the assassins had were a handful of guys with daggers. And they made that work. So they would go out and kill people sometimes to order, but nearly always. in their own interests as well. By the end, they were kind of being bossed around a little bit. We'll come to that later.

But they made an art form. So if they're, for instance, when they're cozing up to the rulers of Damascus or Aleppo, when those leaders, one of the levers they have in insinuating themselves into authority, is they can go up to the leader and say, you know, you've got enemies, your enemies can be our enemies. Once they're our enemies, they're not going to be around very long. And literally you find that some of the most senior people in the Islamic world are being killed by the assassins. And it's famous.

It makes them hated in the Sunni community because they think they're heretics, but now they're bloody murdering heretics. And they've got this aura of fear around them. So to the Sunnis, they start creating a kind of negative legend. So they're called Hashashin, assassins, which means, you know, guys who are drugged up junkies. And it doesn't, I mean, it partly means that you take drugs. But it's got a broader context. So it's like, you know, calling somebody a junkie scumbag. You know, it's a very pejorative, socially degrading thing.

So it's a very down market, but also, you know, out of control. You would think from an assassin's point of view that they would rare, against that and they do to an extent but the other issue is that it's so good for them you know it's like your enemy fear you that's your weapon and then they start telling stories about how fearsome and horrible you are it's like well you just lean into it so the the legends kind of build on themselves even and it's actually in everybody's interests so the heretics are kind of they become the other because they have this horrible branding attached to them but from their perspective well you know If that means you leave me alone, then that's job done.

And, I mean, were they particularly good at assassinating people? I mean, did they sort of, did they train? Was it part of their doctrine? Yeah. I mean, sad, we haven't got the, you know, the HR manual. We haven't got the email trail. But you can look at what they did and deduce from what they did, just how well trained the guys were.

And that's the, to me, that's the main reason why we know they weren't drugged up. You know, you can call somebody a hash-ashin, which implies they're on narcotics. And you do that partly because that's a way of explaining why they would do such dangerous, almost suicidal things. And it's a way of denigrating them. Whereas in reality, these guys were not drugged up. They were just very devoted to their community and their religion. They were fanatics, you might say, but they were deeply committed. And actually I found no evidence of drug use with them particularly.

And if you think about it, it's the last thing you would want is to be, you know, stoned when you're going into a meticulous head. Sneaking about. Thinking about, you know. Tramission impossible. Yeah. Where's my next miles bar or something? Because you're all, you know, you've done a lot of hashish. These guys needed their wits about them.

It's the most intricate assassinations that they're trying to do. And they were spectacular, on a good day, they were spectacularly good at it. What's some of the greatest hits? Greatest, well, literally. Yeah. The first one really was spectacular. They had a spectacular, as the IRA used to call them, hit in Persia. Right at the very beginning of their campaign against the Turks,

they managed to get to the leading warlord of the Turks, who was an older guy being carried to his harim on a kind of palanquin. I guess. And one of the guys was in disguise as a Sufi, just managed to get up to him and stabbed him. And it sounds incredibly easy, but politically it just changed everything. And similarly with even, say, Edward I first,

you can catch someone like Edward I first. When Edward was in town, in 1272, the assassins managed to insinuate their way into his household. So one of the guys managed to get to get to Edward became a spy. He was actually paid by Edward to be a spy for him and became Edward's godson. And then attacked him in the middle of the night by surprise while he's still in his princely underwear with his pregnant wife just behind him. And on one level it was a failure. So Edward is super butch, bit of a James Bond figure,

the assassin tries to knife him in the chest, Edward manages to push him away so he only gets wounded on the leg, and then stabs the assassin in the face, killing him in instantly. So you might say, well, that's pretty pathetic. You know, the assassin had him cold, had him unprepared, had unarmoured, he should have killed him, and that's true. But even the mere fact of having got to him, projected power and fear

and Edward left very soon afterwards he wrote his will just a couple of days after that as soon as he was well enough when he recovered from the knife wound and the poison he wrote his will he was a guy who was fixated with mortality because the assassins had got to him once

and you know that you extrapolate from that if they get to me once they can get to me again or his family and that is one of the things always to bear in mind that a successful assassin hit doesn't have to involve death. It just involves the possibility of death and getting close enough to administer it. There was a fabulous series of attacks on Saladin and basically the Templars and the assassins both hated Saladin, partly because he was just so good. He was

so rich, he was so powerful, he was uniting Sunni Islam. And his shtick, really, I mean, Saladin was a a usurper. So he'd taken command of Egypt, which he shouldn't have done really. Luckily, his boss died. But basically he took over and created an empire as a usurper. And he spent most of his time fighting his Sunni Muslim neighbours. But his PR campaign to justify that was to say, well, if you give me all the power, then I can focus on getting rid of the infidels, who are the Franks and the Crusaders, and the heretics who are the ishmaelis. So instantly you've got the Templars and the Ishmaelis and the assassins suddenly have a commonality of purpose.

They both got a nemesis. I mean, it is a nemesis in the real sense of the word. And they both set out to create a series of hits on Saladin. You are consuming Dan Snow's history hits more after the break. And the assassins get pretty close. Well, the legends, there's one about sort of a knife in the tent or something, isn't there? Yeah, oh, it's fabulous. And it's true.

I mean, we don't know how many. And interestingly, the assassins were involved in a conspiracy to kill Saladin in the winter of 1173, 1174. And they were doing that in conjunction with the Crusaders and the Fatimids. So they were getting together. So there's no sense in which they hate the Christians particularly. They're not, you know, like Palmerston, they just have interest. rather than friends. And in some ways, the Christians are more easy allies for them

because they don't care about Muslim theology. To them, the assassins are the assassins. They're not heretics. So they try to kill him in 1173, 1174, but the plot gets blown. The conspirators are crucified. This is in Cairo. 1175 Saladin is in a siege doing what he's normally doing

which is attacking his Sunni neighbours he's in a siege of Lapo and the assassins really go gangbusters to try and get rid of him because they know that once you've tried overtly then you very rarely get a good second chance and they go in really mob-handed so there's 13 assassins head into the siege camp. And they're really clever.

They do it very well. They choose the time right. It's meal time. There's lots of servants, lots of hustle, people moving plates around and everything. And they walk very nonchalantly through the camp, looking apart.

You know, that's the thing about assassins. They don't have a kind of Hugo Boss uniform. They are, they blend in. That is part of their training. They're very good assimilators. And they just wander into the camp. and there's 13 of them they've all got concealed weapons

and then just as they're coming up to the tent somebody calls out and it's a kind of a query it's like wow what are you doing here and you know if you or I were walking down the street and somebody said that

you'd think it was you know a friend or an acquaintance but they don't have any friends so it's instantly they realize something's gone wrong and this guy it's actually an emir who knows them because he's got lands near them and he's used to he knows how dangerous they are. So they've got, I don't know, they've got half a second to make a decision. They can either run or they can go forward and try and kill Saladin. And, you know, being assassins,

you know, they take the let's kill Saladin approach and all 13 of them rush the tent. And it's blood everywhere, blades everywhere. They kill a lot of bodyguards. They kill Amirs. They almost get to Saladin. You know, we're talking centimeters. And then every assail. in his butcher. So they come down. They're wiped out. And that's almost the closest they get to him. But so Saladin is left, you know, shocked by this. All the security is improved. But he, you know, life goes on. And a few months later, he's besieging another Sunni neighbor in Azaz. And the assassins try again. And you'd think they would have given up at this point. But Being the assassins, they never give up.

That is part of the brand. You know that they're going to be around there. They'll take out your grandchildren, if you have any. So three of them, they get a very focused group, three assassins, again, come into the siege camp. Very well disguised, just nonchalant. They blend in with the bodyguards. And again, they actually do get Saladin. I don't know if you've done, you've probably seen lots of pictures of Saladin.

Normally he's dressed quite correctly in very much. gorgeous silks and a turban and so on and very very long flowing clothes which is all true but but what the pictures don't show you is what's underneath and there's layers of mail and chain and leather and on his head under the beautiful silk turban there's on that day there was a steel cap and underneath that is male and underneath that is leather and the assassin still managed to get to him they were trying for his face and neck because because they're exposed and they managed to draw blood. But again, they were cut down before they could really get to him.

And Saladin at that point was, you know, understandably, incredibly shaken. He, we know what he was thinking because we've still got some of his correspondence. But, you know, and he was writing to his nephew saying, for God's sake, you know, really watch out. The knives have been distributed. That's a fine turn of phrase. It's a quote. But you could see he just, he knew his cards were marked. and he you know he's he's a guy with a huge army you know the biggest army in the region so he responds by

marching straight over to masiaf which is you know the big castle that the assassins have got where the old man is hold up and they have this kind of we've still got some of the correspondents they have this kind of hate hate relationship where they're threatening each other but the weird thing is it's so asymmetric that they really struggle to find a conclusion So Saladin knows he's got huge armies, and his armies destroy the assassins' villages. They kill the assassins' peasants, burn the trees, do all of that. But they can't really quite guarantee that they're going to kill every single one. And if there's one left, you get a dagger.

And similarly, with the assassins, you know, they don't like their villages being burned and their people killed and their castles attacked. So they reached a kind of strange impasse. During the negotiations, the assassins tried another crazy hit, it seems, where one of them was hiding in a walnut tree where Saladin was riding. So he was habitually riding along this path. There was a walnut tree that he rode under. And the assassin was hiding up in the tree. Jumped down when Saladin rode under.

And this is part of the story I love because it does show that they're humid as well. and they're a bit rubbish, like ordinary people like us. And instead of getting to Saladin, the guy hit the horse's bottom and then bounced off, before he was hacked to death, obviously. Well, he was close. In the traditional way. But he got in close again. And it's interesting that after that point, there's nothing ever put in writing.

And we know Saladin still hates him because we've got his letters, you know, and he hates him forever. But they never fall out again. There's clearly some correspondence missing, which is secret. correspondent saying, okay, you know, you back off. You back off from me. I'll back off from you. And actually, when he did treatise with the Crusaders, for instance, he included the assassin's lands and protected them. So there was clearly some kind of understanding. So to your earlier point, they didn't get to him. Some of the attacks were almost a bit laughable.

You know, the horse's bum doesn't go down well. It's not James Bond. But it's the remorseless nature of it sort of succeeds because it inculcates a whole sort of atmosphere of fear and power that they shouldn't have had. They're just, there just basically a few under-resourced peasants, really. And yet they managed to survive and intimidate. And I guess in the same way, the Templars just make themselves as good as you mentioned before, they make themselves really good nights. So if you're facing them battle, you think, oh, at the very least, we're going to fight on our hands here. Yeah. And that that can be half the battle sometimes, it's persuading the other side not to fight you.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And if you look at the year after, so 1177, the year after that assassin bounced off the horse's bottom, the Templars were there doing what the assassins had tried to do. There was a battle called Montgisar where Saladin had invaded the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem with a huge army. And the crusaders were very intimidated. They hadn't realized how big Saladin's army was. and when they found out, they basically had to hunker down in castles. Over time, over a couple of weeks, Saladin relaxed because his guys were so in control, he just kind of allowed discipline to go down a bit, and people were out foraging.

And the Crusaders came out. They saw they had one chance where his army was quite disorganized, and they managed to face off against Saladin. And interestingly, what they did, the army, I think, was commanded by. reynald de chateon who we can who's a fabulous character that you know we've come across him in the kingdom of heaven you know a famous crusader pirate but but his his elite troops the ones he put in charge were the templars and there was a single templar squadron it was 84 men just 84 so they're facing an army of up to 20,000 but these 84 guys all of whom are templars are focused on Saladin standard you know they can

see it and there's something very deeply personal about it you know that's the one time in a battle where you can really take the battle to the enemy commanders in a very literal way and the templars just launched themselves at saladin standard and managed to carve their way through one of the guys got to within a couple of meters of saladin he ran he had a racing camel he managed to run away on the battlefield and his army was was destroyed they had real trouble getting back to Egypt. They basically disintegrated because it was November. The weather was awful and they just got

terrified and destroyed over the next 10 days. But it was pretty much the closest the Crusaders ever got to him and it was a Templar squadron that did it. It's that same commitment to death. It's the promise of death that a Templar

squadron brings with it. What about decline? Because they both, and like everything, they declined. Yeah, no, absolutely. They're clearly they're very small groups of people. And we're talking, in the period of the Crusades, we're talking about almost 200 years. To me, the weird thing is they both survived as long as they did.

But as you say, you know, they did get destroyed or overcome. So the assassins in Persia came across somebody even nastier and more difficult than themselves in the face of the Mongols. So, you know, in the 1250s, The Mongols appear in the region. And they are incredibly remorseless. When they first arrive, the assassins are quite pleased. And they cozy up to them and they say, oh, there's a nice Sunni town over there.

You'd probably like to go and kill, you know, and we'll help you with that. So they thought it was an opportunity because I think they thought anybody who's killing that many Sunni Muslims can't be all bad. But then they started to believe their own propaganda, you know, which is always very dangerous. and one of the Mongol generals fell out with them. And for his pains, he was butchered by an assassin. So sort of, you know, good, full marks for trying. Don't kill a Mongol war.

Don't call a Mongol. Yeah, exactly. So let's guess what happens next. So the Mongols then go absolutely do lightly. And they charge in. And I know the word genocide is heavily overused nowadays, But the Mongols did pretty much a good job of doing it. They went through the assassins in Persia and just absolutely wiped them out.

Women, children, household animals, domestic pets, everything. And they really did destroy the community. The assassins in Syria were kind of left out on a limb, really. I mean, like head office has just been taken out. But the Mongols kind of followed them down. in 1260 the Mongols invaded what was the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem in the 12th century

and they met the Mamluks there was a huge battle in 1260 at a place called Angeloot one of the big ones the truly decisive battle absolutely yeah I mean there is this thing where you know the idea of the decisive battle is much denigrated

but that was one of them exactly if there ever was one the Mongols were definitively turned back their army was absolutely destroyed and again the assassins kind of breathed the sigh of relief and it's like oh fabulous you know business as usual now we've got rid of the Mongols

now we can go back to intimidating people but the trouble is anybody nasty enough to beat the Mongols that has to be even more dangerous and that's exactly what happened there was a Mamluk Sultan called Baibas he was a superb commander

not a nice guy you know not holiday companion but he was he was really, really tough. And he basically just put the screws on the assassins. He ended up taking over their castles, destroying them. He didn't kill everyone because he was rather more subtle than the Mongols. He realized that they had value. And ironically, the value that he saw was the value of their legend,

which they'd already tried to promote, which is, you know, I've now got a group of people who will kill for me and will do it on command. That's exactly what he did. So when we were talking about King Edward or Prince Edward, as he was then, that was a hit commissioned by Baobars. Because Edward was there with a tiny army, but Baibars recognized that he was a superb general.

And the last thing he wanted was Edward to go home, get England's resources behind him, and then come back with a proper army. And similarly with a lot of the crusaders, whenever Baibar's had a problem with an enemy, whether it was Muslim or Christian, he would chuck a bit of money, a bit of small change at the assassins

and say, you go and kill that person. And if you kill that person, I'll let your community live for a couple more years. So it's a sad ending. They became creatures and creatures that survived only by other people's blood. But they did survive. Whereas the Templars do not survive, do they?

So the Crusaders are kicked out of all the Crusader kingdoms. So then the Templars are left. giant fundraising apparatus, clever international banking system, lots of property around Europe, but no army to pay for. Yep, exactly. And it's a bit awkward.

The R word, redundancy. They're a very expensive, they're a luxury item with no job to do anymore. And the first person to realize this was the King of France, Philip the Fair, or unfair as they would say,

but it's like they had kind of painted themselves into a corner. You know, the Templars had one job and that was to defend the Holy Land and they blatantly hadn't done that. And so by 1307 you have a French monarchy who's cash strapped could really do with a bit of, you know, a bit of land, bit of money. And they also have a methodology of intimidating minority groups. So they've already, Phillips's already put the screws on the local Lombard bankers twice.

So they've been accused of crazy things and then had their money stolen. and the Jewish community has been rounded up, had all their money extorted and then expelled. And after he died, actually, his son found a leper conspiracy. He found that lepers had been conspiring with Jews and Muslims to poison the wells of France. You know, all crazy trumped-up stuff. But it's a good way, I mean, I said that in a non-moral sense,

it was a good way of extorting money from people who were temporarily powerless. And the Templars being redundant and quite inflexible and a bit arrogant as well fell neatly into that kind of sort of, you know, vend diagram of people I can get money from. And he accused him of doing super crazy things like Satan worship, being traitors to Christendom, you know, a lot of just threw everything at it. It was like the biggest tabloid story of the 13th century and just closed the order down. So it's a very sad end for the Templars actually, because they, you know, they had failed to win the Holy Land. I have to say it's an unwinnable, you know, that's a corporate objective you couldn't fulfill. And they had brought some of it on themselves by being so arrogant. But they deserved to be better remembered.

You know, at the moment we remember them as, you know, kind of Satan worshippers and treasure hunters and things, which are just childish stories, really. Wow. Fascinating stuff. Thank you so much, Steve, for coming on talking about. You've just written a book called Assassins and Templars. It's a great story. Thanks coming on. Thank you, Dan. Really loved it. Have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history?

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