Dan Snow's History Hit - The Demerara Uprising and Britain’s Legacy of Slavery

Episode Date: March 28, 2022

The Demerara Rebellion of 1823 was an uprising of over ten thousand enslaved people in the Crown colony of Demerara-Essequibo (now part of Guyana) on the coast of South America. Having grown tired of their servitude, the enslaved sought to resist in the most direct way they could. The rebellion took place on August 18, 1823, and grew to become a key trigger in the abolition of slavery across the empire.Author Thomas Harding joins Dan on the podcast to chart the lead-up to the uprising in the British colony, right through to the courtroom drama that came about as a consequence. They also discuss vital questions about the legacy that the British have been left with and whether generations of those who benefited from slavery need to acknowledge and take responsibility for White Debt.If you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! To download the History Hit app please go to the Android or Apple store.

Hey everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History. I've got Thomas Harding on the pod, best-selling author. We're talking about what he calls white debt, we're talking about restitution, and we're talking about one of the more remarkable uprising of enslaved people in the Atlantic world. The colony of Demerara, the British colony of Demerara, was shaken to its core by an uprising of something like 12,000 enslaved people from 37 plantations in August 1823. It was put down with great brutality and bloodshed by the British authorities. He wrote this book, he wrote this new history, partly because of some discoveries he'd made within his family history recently. He is Jewish, he's descended from Germans who fled the Holocaust, but he has family

members that were killed in that atrocity. And he has received money from the German government, restitution. And as he said, if I was willing to identify as a victim in my father's family to receive reparations from the German government, then surely I'd better understand Britain's role in slavery. Because he discovered that other members of his family stretching back 200 years were involved in slave grown cash crops if he's taking money from the German government should he be giving money to the descendants of the slaves whose work whose labor his family benefited from difficult stuff folks difficult stuff so we're here to talk about restitution we talk about the Demerara uprising. It's going to be interesting.

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all sorts of good stuff. You're going to love it. So go and follow that link. Give it a little click with your thumb right now. In the meantime, though, here's Thomas Harding talking about Demerara and White Debt. Thomas, great to have you on the podcast. Oh, it's great to be here.

I'm looking forward to it. This is so current. How should we think about, how should we make restitution for great crimes of the past? And you're an interesting person because you embody both sides of this argument. When I've been writing my previous books, it's always been about my German Jewish family. And I've seen myself as the, you know, air quotes, victim. My dad's family family they were in Berlin members of the family were chucked out of school they had to flee the Nazis members of my family were murdered in the holocaust and so I've been writing about these stories and then when I wrote

my recent book about my mum's family that's when I learned that they had been involved with the tobacco business in the 19th century and And they'd been importing tobacco from Virginia, from the States, and almost certainly the tobacco had come from plantations worked by enslaved people. And the shoe was very much on the other foot. And that's what got me going, really, trying to understand more about Britain's role in slavery. Honestly, I'm just embarrassed about how little I knew. Well, there's all sorts of amazing books coming out about slavery at the moment, and resistance to enslavement. And your book is one of them. We've seen one that won the Cundill Prize, amazing, about Guyana as well. But tell me about Demerara, the British colony in South America, because there weren't many. the North Atlantic coast, just above Brazil. It was a British colony. One of the more recent additions to the British Empire, it only became officially under British control in 1804, as opposed to the Caribbean islands, which were much older. Because of that,

it had not really been developed in the same way. Recently, there'd been a transformation, when I say recently, by the 1820s, the plantations had been moved from cotton to sugar, and it became extraordinarily profitable. And the people came from Britain, from England, from Scotland, other parts of the country to make their own money. And they were hoping to do very well by it. And of course, it was at the cost of the enslaved people. And you may have known this, but I didn't know this. The transatlantic slave trade was abolished in 1807, but slave auctions still went on after that because it was allowed under the law to buy and sell humans between British colonies. So a man and woman could

be brought from Barbados or Jamaica, brought to Demerara, now Guyana, sold at a slave auction, let's say in 1815, 1820. And then they'd be working in slave plantations and their children would be considered, if the mother was enslaved, they would be considered the property of the owner of the plantation. And so the institution of slavery goes on. But this uprising that you write about is very important because it comes towards the end of that and it almost certainly contributes to the eventual realization in Britain that this cannot continue. Yeah so what we're talking about is an uprising in the August 1823 it was the largest uprising of enslaved people in the British Empire somewhere above 10,000 maybe as many as 15,000 people I mean it's enormousaved men and women took part.

And it was brutally, brutally suppressed by the British militia. At least 200 people were killed during the uprising itself. The uprising lasted a few days. But then there were the suppression efforts afterwards by the British militia where, I mean, they were literally lining people up without any trial and just shooting them. Appalling. And then there were these court-martials that took place after the suppression in the autumn of 1823, took place in the capital of Demerara, Georgetown. It was a court-martial and at least 70 people were found guilty. At least 20 of them were hung, their heads put on pikes

to warn others not to take part in uprisings. So maybe as many as 500 people. It's a very significant event and to my mind, a huge blot on the history of the British Empire. And when you're researching this, how well recorded, attested is this? Is this something that people were embarrassed by in an attempt to destroy archives or is this something that was just seen as absolutely round the mill in the Atlantic world? I'm a white person and I had no idea about this history, neither the history of my family nor the history of what happened in Demerara. But amongst people in Guyana, especially amongst historians, this is a well-known part of history. I was very lucky to be able to go to Guyana and I met with some people who have studied

this history, who have written about this history before. And as you may know, there is a pattern of Europeans going over, particularly the Caribbean to the Americas and white Europeans and kind of writing about this history and not giving credit to others, particularly those black historians, African-Americans. For me, it's very important to recognize the work of other people, which is something that I try and do in my book and recognize their work. And yet, I felt there was new things to say. So up till now, the role of the enslaved people has really not been put at the center of the story and their voices haven't been heard. And one of the extraordinary things, Dan, about this story is we know exactly what they said because during these court-martials, dozens of enslaved people gave testimony. So we know exactly what they said, because during these court marshals,

dozens of enslaved people gave testimony. So we actually know what they said. I can quote them, which is highly unusual to be able to quote people, especially enslaved people from that time. And then it becomes a much more colourful, much more rich story. And then I balance it with other characters who took part in the history. Just quickly, were your family involved in this particular uprising? No. So my family, their link is with the States, with Virginia. And I could have written about there were rebellions in Virginia, Nat Turner and so on. But for me, I really wanted to explore Britain's role in slavery. And so I guess my family's role was the catalyst of the inquiry. But then I wanted to choose a history where I could understand

it from the enslaved person's point of view, where Britain had a really important role. Because I don't know about you, but when I was growing up, I was told about the slavery which took part in North America, the southern plantations gone with the wind, 12 years of slavery and so on. I knew almost nothing about Britain's role in the Caribbean, maybe except for maybe the triangular trade. What I was told was about William Wilberforce and his associates. We're the good guys, we abolish slavery. And so I really want to look at an example, a microcosm, if you like, of how Britain was involved in terms of not just the trade, but owning of the plantations, running the plantations, transporting the commodities back to Britain, and also the

politics of it. How was the abolishing of slavery? How did that work? Who tried to stop it? But also the role that enslaved abolitionists, the enslaved people, what was their role in abolishing slavery? Because I think also that hasn't really been surfaced that much in the past, certainly in the histories that I've read. I was really interested by how much you were able to piece together from people like, for example, Jack Gladstone, who's an enslaved man who took the name of a very famous prime minister of this country. Yeah, so Jack Gladstone, I mean, he's really the hero, isn't he, of the story. He's this very intelligent, charismatic man in his 20s who grew up on a plantation and therefore,

as was the custom, his last name was given as the man who owned it, which was John Gladstone, who was the largest owner, in quote marks marks of enslaved people in Demerara. He had over seven plantations. And he was the father of the future Prime Minister William Gladstone. And he was at the centre of attempts to try and stop the abolishment of slavery. And of course, later on, William Gladstone inherited wealth from his father, John Gladstone. He actually gave speeches in Parliament defending the rights of the enslavers and the necessity of the British government to compensate them if there was going to be the end of slavery financially.

So there is a lot to interrogate here. Part of my journey in this book was to tell the history, but also talk about the legacy today. What does it mean today? And I was able to track down the four times great grandson of John Gladstone, the politician, slave owner, father of William. And we had some really interesting conversations about what does this history mean to him? And what does he do about it? His name is Charlie Gladstone. What did he feel? Well, I mean, I think he's burdened by this history and it's a work in progress, I think. I mean, for me as well, but I think very much for him. And it started with,

he really didn't want to talk about history. He wanted to look forward. He considers himself a progressive person. He runs these events and festivals in Wales at a place that he lives, Hardwick Castle, with his wife. But he was also incredibly honest, I thought, in sharing his emotions. And he said that in his words that he was disgusted by his four times great grandfather, at times he'd wished that he hadn't inherited the name. So I think he's really struggling with it. And he understands that he needs to do something about it. And it's not just an apology, an acknowledgement, which he says was important, but it needs to be more than that. And I thought that was really interesting. And I think what we're seeing in Britain is an increasing number

of families who have direct connections with slavery, investigating their own histories, understanding what they are, educating themselves, but then also taking steps to do something about it. And, you know, I think this is a wider problem within society. I mean, I call it white debt, because I think this is not just people who have direct links. You know, I think there is a wider problem within society. I mean, I call it white debt because I think this is not just people who have direct links. You know, I think there's so much wealth came to Britain as a result of slavery, so much. And anyone really who was brought up in this country, particularly if they're white, I think benefited indirectly at least. But there are also people like Charlie Gladstone who have a direct link and it looks like they're beginning to deal with it. Listen to Dan Snow's history hits. We're talking about the uprising of enslaved people in Demerara. More coming up. Hi, I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb. And on my

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podcasts. It's a therapy session for you, because my ancestors, I mean, they're a bunch of black arts, all of them. I mean, we had East India Company men, we had West Indian planters, we had Ulster colonialists. I mean, like, I'm a shambles. I've got a First World General who led his men at the Somme. That's just bad. So seriously, how are you dealing with it? What's your approach? Well, I think like everybody, like you've just mentioned, I am slowly, first of all, I think the first thing is acceptance.

And the hardest one for me, I can laugh about the ones hundreds of years ago. I can sort of maybe shrug them off a bit more and find their attitudes extraordinary part of it for me is the fact that my canadian family i love my mum's forebears and i met you know grandparents great grandparents you know they settled land in north america and that was not empty you know i was brought up to believe it was empty unproductive land, and these hardworking Scots arrived and brought forth nature's bounty and improved their lot, and then their kids would be farmers, and their kids would go to university, and eventually, you know, we'd climb the American Dream, and you could end up as kind of

professional middle classes, and it's all great. You know, now I'm increasingly aware that that land was, you know, Abenaki land or other people's land. And it's very difficult. It is my entire childhood. I played in those fields. So I am behind you, dude. I'll tell you that much.

The thing is, I've been asked to apologize by descendants of people who died under my great-grandfather's command on the Somme. And I kind of have apologized. I don't think it's my fault. But obviously, if that's something that is going to help you, that's great. However, I don't think it's my fault, but obviously like if that's something that is going to help you, that's great. However, I don't think apologising is that,

as you say, it's white debt. It's like you apologise. What about giving up my nice comfortable house with my nice posh things? I mean, that's where we get down to brass tacks, right? I think we have to be careful about equating atrocities, you know, the Holocaust against the Jews, slavery for African people.

However, I think there's some lessons to be learned. And I spoke to this woman, Alexander Schrift, from Germany, whose grandfather was the guy who ran Slovakia and was responsible for transporting 70,000 Jews to the death camps. And I had a conversation with her and I said, how do you feel about that? How do you deal with it? She said, look, when I was growing up, we didn't talk about it. And it came up, he was seen as the martyr because he was one of the few people to get hung after the war as a war criminal. And people kind felt sorry for him and like why did he get picked on

kind of thing and she would then start asking questions and challenging it and i said so does that mean that you feel responsible for what he did and she said i can't feel responsible i wasn't alive however i can be responsible for not talking about it i can be responsible for not acknowledging it and if there is a silence i would then be complicit in that. For me, that was really helpful, trying to separate what our responsibilities are. And now she talks about this thing about intergenerational trauma and guilt, and she's very committed to doing something about it. And when I was talking to people in Guyana, look, it's really straightforward. I mean, they said, look, if the Jews received compensation from Germany for what

happened, why shouldn't the descendants of African enslaved people? And Dan, I personally have received money from the German government. And I think that's a fair question. You know, why aren't they? And look, it's not just about checks. You know, it's more complicated than that. People say, you know, it's really complicated. The logistics are really hard. When I raised this with my own family, they were like, well, you can't change history. And some of them were quite angry. You're going to damage the reputation of the family. And who are you to talk about these events in history?

You're applying today's values to yesterday. You know, all these kind of common excuses. And as someone who's really interested in history, I think it's fascinating how stories can get weaponized by people. And I've seen that that my own family but the vast majority of people my family were really keen to understand this history and they wanted to explore it and do something about it i think the problem is exploring and speaking out like your german contact then it's different if you're sitting in a big old house paid for ultimately

and i think look our subsequent generations are going to feel that about industrial farming and about- Climate change. Exactly. So all of our pension funds are invested in these people. And my mum and dad live a comfortable old age because they bought some shares in bloody Exxon 30 years ago, I expect, or some pension fund manager did. So this is a really difficult conversation. It is. but it's also interesting how the power of history affects us today isn't it yeah you know that history isn't this dry cold subject it has real consequences and i can even see it when i call people up who

might be descendants from people who own slaves the nerves and the anxiety i mean it shows you how vibrant and vital and how much of a grip history has on our consciousnesses today, on our emotions and our anxieties, our hopes. Yeah, well, people who think history is dead and buried have never been to Palestine, Israel, Northern Ireland. Right, exactly. The Donetsk Basin. So just come back to this Demerara Vox. It's such an extraordinary example.

It's been sort of forgotten. How close does it come to being an organised alternative structure for the colony? Was it just a shriek of outrage? Or like the neighbouring uprising on the wild coast, the Dutch wild coast in the Seven Years' War, was there kind of the outlines of an alternative African formerly enslaved republic emerging? Yeah, so I'd say yes and no. So it wasn't a spontaneous shriek. One of the really interesting things about the Demerara uprising is how well organised and considered it was. You know, Jack Gladstone, he was one of the rare people who could travel around the colony because, you know,

if you're enslaved, you're not allowed to leave the plantation, the punishments would be terrible, beatings in the stock, you'd be sent to the colonial jails. Because he was the head cooper, he actually transported these huge barrels of sugar to the harbour in georgetown they're called hogs heads these huge barrels of sugar and because of that he was able to mix and understand and hear the news and the rumors and so he was very aware about the other rebellions and uprisings taking place across not only the british colonies but you know haiti and as far afield as north america and he'd also would have heard about the drastic consequences how these were brutally repressed how people were killed and massacred. And so he had made a decision early on, and it had been a conversation with his associates, to try and be nonviolent, not to try and hurt any of the white colonists. Yes, seize their weapons to try and disarm the oppressors, but to be non-violent. And so this took a lot of organizing. The other thing which is really notable is how widespread it was. Over 30 plantations took part.

As I said earlier, at least 10,000, maybe as many as 15,000 people took part. So it was definitely organized, very much considered. They also agreed to rise up across the colonies so that the militia couldn't just pin them down at one spot. Again, you know, quite a smart idea. However, they didn't get as far as taking control, setting up a government, distributing land, raising taxes, because it was so quickly oppressed. And part of the reason that happened

was because they were betrayed. But also it was because the governor of Demerara, this guy called John Murray, this really noxious man. He has the black hat of the uprising. He's the shadowy figure. He was the governor. He himself owned plantations in the colonies and also in Berbice next door. He decided to brutally suppress the rebellion and then organize these court-martials.

But it had been his inaction, this whole thing had been triggered because the British Parliament, worried about slavery, had sent word to John Murray and the other governors in the Caribbean to what they called ameliorate, to reduce, lessen the terrible conditions of slavery. So whipping of female enslaved people was to be banned. Enslaved people should be allowed by right to attend church because they weren't often on the weekdays and so on. But because John Murray had refused to implement these new codes, this is what triggered the rebellion because of course

that had leaked out and the enslaved people heard about it. So it's interesting to compare it to the other rebellions. You said earlier that it was one of the key catalysts for the abolition of slavery 10 years later when the act was passed in Britain. I would totally agree with that. So there were other rebellions in Jamaica and so forth. But what happened by the 1820s is the anti-slavery movement in Britain was really at a low ebb. It had been at its high point around 1807 when the slave trade, the Atlantic slave trade had been outlawed. But since then, it become this kind of slightly arcane conversation about how do you bring about full emancipation? How do you compensate the slaveholders? What amount should be given? It had become almost an actuarial discussion. And the defenders of slavery had

mounted a very good campaign to protect their interests, what they called their interests. But what the Demerara uprising did, it did two or three things. One is, because of it being so brutal, when the news reports arrived in Britain, the newspapers covered it extensively. So the conditions, the horrible atrocious conditions became very public. The second thing is, one of the supporters of the enslaved people's causes was this missionary called John Smith, this white missionary. And he almost became a bridge for the British public. They understood how horrible things were through this missionary, John Smith, who was accused of fomenting the rebellion and was found guilty and sentenced to death. He ended up dying actually in prison, but he became like a martyr. And then the third thing was, I think, this respect for the

enslaved people themselves, how they had organized themselves, as we're talking about, and sort of being non-violent, about being very coordinated. And this really reignited the anti-slavery movement in Britain, so that over the next few years, the tide really turned against the slavery interest, so that by 1833, when Parliament actually started looking at this, and there'd been thousands of petitions signed by hundreds of thousands of British people calling for the end of slavery. The campaign really was in place to actually end and abolish slavery. And is there a model for restitution like the German model? Has there anywhere been any models around slavery in the Atlantic world, in the US or

elsewhere? The answer is yes and no. So I mean, at the end of the Civil War, there was an agreement by the Northern powers, the government, to actually compensate the enslaved people in the States, you know, 40 acres and a mule. That sadly was overturned during reconstruction. Tani Hisakoza has written a really interesting article, 2015, published in The Atlantic, which is definitely worth looking at. You know, other people have been compensated. For example, the Japanese in the States were compensated after the mass incarceration during the Second World War, and there was a restitution there. The Caribbean community, CARICOM, has written a very interesting plan. They call it the Ten Point Plan, published in 2014, I think, which you can just search online. The African Union has also looked at this. So there have been definitely attempts to look at this. But, you know, on a practical level, it's already happening.

So you look at the States, Georgetown University students have already agreed that part of their tuition should go towards reparations. The Jesuits have agreed to put aside some money for reparations. I think $100 million, some enormous amount of money. The University of Glasgow in this country has agreed, I think, to raise 20 million pounds in combination with the University of West Indies, the Bank of England, Lloyds Bank, Green King. There's certain institutions in this country who are really looking at their own personal responsibility and talking about what they can do about it. So these conversations are already happening, partly at the governmental level, but happening also at a lower level, institutional level, and also at the family

level. I mean, there's even a Facebook page, which, you know, people post, I need my car fixed, or I need help with my tuition fees, and people will just post a few dollars. So, you know, it's happening at these different levels, which is really interesting. I love it. It's interesting. My Canadian cousin has got First Nations heritage in him. So his mum's side, they have Anglo and French Canadian blood, but also First Nations, which means curiously, he is eligible for free tuition in Canadian universities. And he comes from quite an affluent family. And so that's an interesting situation as well. We're all wrestling with this. The whole acceptance of the money, my great uncles, so my uncle Hans was this incredible figure. He was German Jewish. And at the end of the Second World War, I mean, he was

in the British army. They came over in the 1930s to get away from the Nazis. Then he joined the British Army. At the end of the war, he was part of the first war crimes investigation team, and he tracked down and arrested the commandant of Auschwitz. I wrote this book called Hans and Rudolf about this. But he was eligible for restitution from the German government, and he refused it. I'm not going to take that dirty money. You can't just use money to wipe away your sins. So in my family, it was quite a hot topic. Do we accept the money? Is there some kind of compromise? Are we giving something up? So different people had different responses. It's not even an easy emotional solution, even if it's agreed. So it's highly complicated. But just because it's difficult and complicated doesn't mean that shouldn't be attempted. But it starts with an omission of responsibility. And unbelievably, the British government, the royal family has never, ever apologised. There's been tokenistic things about we regret, and I think Prince Charles recently talked about the atrocity of slavery, but there's never been a formal apology. And surely we should start with that.

Yeah, yeah. That's powerful stuff. Thank you very much, Thomas Harding. What's the book called? It's called White Debt. Brilliant. Go and get it, everybody. Thank you very much.

Thanks, Dan. It's been a really, really, really interesting conversation. I feel we have the history on our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the end of this episode of dan snow's history i really appreciate listening to this podcast i love doing these podcasts it's a highlight of my career it's the best thing i've ever done and your support your listening is obviously crucial for that project if you did feel like doing me a favor if you go to wherever you

get your podcasts and give it a review give it a rating obviously a good one ideally then that would be fantastic and feel free to share it we obviously depend on listeners depend on more and more people finding out about it depend on good reviews to keep the listeners coming in really appreciate it. Thank you.