Dan Snow's History Hit - The Euros

Episode Date: June 12, 2021

England holds the slightly unwanted title for the most appearances in the Euros without ever reaching a final, so why the excitement when it comes back around every four years?Football journalist and podcaster Tom Fordyce joins Dan to chat about the history of the Euros, memorable moments, and what the future might have in store for the competition, which first took place in 1960.They discuss World Cup comparisons, standout penalties throughout the years, underdogs and more.

Hello everybody, welcome, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. Euro 2020 is kicking off. One of the world's great football tournaments. I'm going to a game this weekend, I can't wait. And for people my age, the Euros always have a very special place in our hearts. As you'll hear me talk about in this podcast. Because of the hot summer of 1996. When we were young, England were a half-decent football team.

British music was good. The looming superpower challenge of a resurgent China was sufficiently distant not to cause much worry. We didn't have a supercomputer in our pocket the entire time, stressing us out, eroding our mental wellness. In order to go on a date, you had to talk to the person you fancied. It was pretty intense. Anyway, for the podcast, I've got Tom Fordyce coming on. He's just a brilliant journalist, writer, podcaster here in the UK.

He's got his own brilliant podcast, I'm very much looking to go on called We Didn't Start the Fire. It's all based on the lyrics of Billy Joel's number one hit. It's a brilliant idea. And you may have heard him on things like the Peter Crouch podcast here, one of the biggest podcasts in the UK. He is a big football fan, he's a big sports fan. And I wanted to ask a little bit about what history do we need to know

before we go into these Euros? By the way, that does not mean an in-depth look at the post-Westphalian nation-state settlement. That just means a bit of funness, a bit of light-hearted podding to take us into the weekend and take us into Euro 2020, which is occurring in 2021. That's where we are, folks. If you wish to watch some great history shows or listen to some other podcasts that we do,

please go to historyhit.tv. Lots of people subscribing, tens of thousands of people subscribing there. The whole thing's quite overwhelming, really. I can't believe what's happening. But it's all going very well because of the support from all of you. So thank you very much. But before you do so, before you rush to sign up to historyhit.tv, here is Tom Fordyce.

Enjoy. Before you rush to sign up to history.tv, here is Tom Fordyce. Enjoy. Hey, bud. Thanks for coming on the podcast. Pleasure, Dan. Nice to see you. Very good to see you too. It's big. It's the start of a big tournament. It feels particularly special this year because, I don't know, I mean, big sort of tournaments and big crowded events feel like they were, well, for the last year and a half felt like a long way off yeah absolutely and i think there was probably a lot of doubt that this one was ever going to take place at one point particularly because it's the first euros that

has multiple hosts so we've had european championships before that have been hosted by two countries two neighboring countries but never one as ambitious as this where they're trying to host it across the entire continent. And if you were to design a sporting tournament that was the least COVID proof of all, it would be involving multiple teams in multiple venues in multiple cities with fans. So it's slightly miraculous they have pulled it off, but we are almost there. And with the usual slightly strained branding issues they have, as they've also got with the 2020 Olympics, which will take place in 2021 yet still be called the 2020 olympics these are the 2020 european championships and

if any children are going to be collecting the panini stickers they will still be euro 2020 panini sticker albums despite the fact we're in 2021 do you know what tom in 150 years time there is going to be the biggest fight on history Twitter about people getting footnotes going, hang on, but it was in 2021, now it's 2020. And Twitter historians will die on those hills. They will die on them. They will. I've won to celebrate that attention to detail. So Tom, I love the Euros because I am the generation of 1996. I thought we'd talk about 96. Yeah, that hot summer of 96 when England looked like they were going to win.

It was at home. I'd finished my GCSEs. This is in no particular order of excitement. And Oasis were at their absolute peak. So as a result, I've always weirdly felt, even though I remember the great World Cups of the 80s from my child, being at primary school during them was very special.

Those Shilton, InstaLinica sides. But for some reason, the Euros always felt really big for me. Traditionally, like historically, have the two tournaments rubbed along against each other? Yeah, it's funny you should say that, because I think partly if you are English, then England's luck in qualifying or in the finals themselves at the Euros is pretty, with the exception of 1996, is pretty ropey.

And there's been plenty of occasions where England have actually failed to qualify. So the first Euros that I remember having a couple of years on you was 1984, when France won and Michel Platini, a fabulous midfielder who went on to run UEFA, basically powered France into the final and won that one. England didn't qualify for that one. In 88, England, pretty much the same team that was to get to the World Cup semifinals two years later in Italy, got knocked out in the group stages. So yeah, I think it's partly that. And also, there's something about the Euros where they were more select than the World Cup. So the

first World Cup was in 1930. And it was treated with a certain amount of snobbishness by some of the more established European nations. Of course England didn't bother entering the World Cup to start with, they didn't think it was for them, they thought it was for the Arab East of international football. So the European Championships, the first one of those wasn't until 1960 which is obviously 30 years on from the World Cup and then it was still a very select affair. So rather than these big finals we have now where you can have 24 teams in the finals, back then the finals was pretty much just straight semi-finals. So the qualifying was a knockout process and you'd get to a very short European Championships with four teams. So even when they expanded it from 1980 onwards you would

have European Championships with eight teams. So you could have a situation onwards you would have European championships with eight teams so you could have a situation where you would have more European teams in a World Cup than in a European championships does that make sense because the World Cup was a much bigger tournament so the Europeans were shorter and briefer and with fewer teams but equally there was a period and I think we all sort of default towards the championships of our childhood because those are the ones where they we really get hooked in. But for me, the beauty of the Euros was always that they were like a super concentrated World Cup. So whilst the first few games of the World Cup can be great from a fan's point of view,

because you see teams you haven't seen before, you're also wading through quite an interminable group stage, where the Europeans were almost like going straight to the quarterfinals of the World Cup, where every team was a big team, and every single game was a game you had to see. The tournament was compressed into two weeks. So, yeah, it was a really nice sort of concentrated hit of football.

Now the tournament is much bigger and it's close to the World Cup, more countries. Probably works from a commercial point of view because more countries can take part. There's more games for the television companies. But I would say it's lost a little bit, possibly, of its distinctiveness compared to the World Cup. Yeah, it's interesting.

I mean, I find that about the Copa America as well, is that sometimes it just seems to cut straight to the really big teams. And isn't that weird? Yeah. Euros, well, there's been some obviously very, very memorable teams that have won. I read an article in The Guardian yesterday, England just has to face it. We just don't have the firepower to win.

It's like, how many knockout tournaments do you have to see absolutely rubbish teams progress all the way to the semis and the finals? And actually, arguably, England in the last World Cup, dare I say that. It's like Greece won the Euros. Why do journalists keep going, oh, it's not about your team on paper, right? That's the thing about it. That's why people love these tournaments. Yeah, absolutely right so england have got the slightly unwanted record of having the most appearances in the european championships not only never having won it but never having reached a final they've been nine nine euros and never made the final two but you're right i think the euros even more than a world cup does throw up surprises so that greece one you you referenced there in 2004 i think they

were 150 to one before that tournament began to win it. They had absolutely no established stars. They had no stars playing any of the major European leagues or for any of the major European teams. Yet they... Didn't they beat Portugal in Portugal? Absolutely right. Yeah, yeah. Like crazy. Yeah. I mean, it was impossible. They beat France on the way through as well, who had won the European Championships, the previous edition in 2000, won the World Cup in 98.

But they had a cohesiveness. They had an East German coach who drilled them in the way that East German coaches do. There have also been some rumours subsequently of what may or may not gone on in an Eastern European way, which are clearly allegations and no more. But that was the great shock. The other great shock that I remember was 1992. Oh yeah, that was great. Yes, when Denmark, who hadn't actually qualified for the finals, made it in late on because of the conflict in the Balkans, because of the breakup of the former Yugoslavia. So Yugoslavia were no longer an entity that could enter into international sporting tournaments in the summer of 1992. So Denmark were pulled from the discard pile to make it and then went all the way, beat the Netherlands in the semi-final and then beat Germany as an absolute underdog because this was

the first time that we'd seen a unified German team in a major sporting tournament because of course the Berlin Wall went down in 89 and in 1990 West Germany was still playing as West Germany in the World Cup so it's one of the great upsets. So the Europeans I think does that more than the World Cup and whether that is a reflection of that more compressed nature of the tournament I don't know. Now the tournament format has changed even more it's really hard to get knocked out in the group stage now. So the tournament that we've got coming up, there's six groups of four. So the six group winners will qualify. There's six teams in second place will qualify, plus four of the best third place teams. So this is a sort of reflection of what the commercial side of it.

No one now wants to see a big team go out because it's bad for TV viewing figures. But if you want upsets, there's an argument that you want the big teams to fall early because it clears a path for the minnows. Do you know what, Tom? I'm a bit unfashionable about this. I quite like seeing the big teams stay in. I'm just like, when a minnow, it's like in Wimbledon, everyone's like, yay, someone managed to beat Federer. And then they go and get obliterated in the next round, like in three sets. It's like, hold on, man. I'm all for epic upsets,

but it's quite nice that your Germanys get a little second chance because it's tough. Do you want to see a final where it's Turkey versus, you know, I don't want to be rude about anyone, or do you want to see the big teams go all the way, big players? Yeah, yeah. I think the Wimbledon example is a very good one because I've sat there at Wimbledon multiple times

when either Nadal was getting beaten in the first round or Federer went. And for a brief few moments, for one evening, there was ecstasy around centre court, number one court, whatever it was, and huge excitement. And then you're absolutely right. You get to the second week and you would miss the superstars because a quarterfinal would be less exciting and more one-sided. because a quarterfinal would be less exciting and more one-sided and maybe it's like that like in the world cup of 2002 where you had turkey and south korea as semi-finalists well yeah in theory great stories and the south korea because they wanted the host probably was a good story but it did make for slightly one-sided and much duller semi-finals even though that game where italy was beaten yeah do you remember totti sliding in? It was a great game. I mean, I loved the fact that Italy were beaten,

but actually I was like, okay, actually I want Italy in the final. I want Italy in the final. Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe the organisers know what they're doing. I think, I mean, at a World Cup, you still saw Germany go out of the group stages last time. But yeah, the odds are stacked

in favour of the big teams at the Europeans now. But let's talk about 96. I'm ashamed. I should say, actually, in 1996, I had a Danish girlfriend, which was brilliant. And she was telling me all about how Denmark won and the whole country just went bonkers. And so I thought in 96, well, this is our time.

It all makes sense. You know, here's me with my Danish girlfriend. It's like she's passing the mantle. And then, obviously, there was the catastrophe. But let's talk about the tournament, what it meant you think for well british because obviously there was a game you know scotland were part of that story very much and what it meant for british football i was thinking about this yesterday and it was so big at the time for all those reasons you've mentioned because it wasn't just a football tournament it was albeit the end of the cool

britannia period, but it was that sort of last two or three years before that tournament, there was a sense of something building, wasn't there? In Britain, particularly in England. The tagline for that tournament was football's coming home. So here's a little quiz for you actually, Dan. So the song that we're all thinking of around Euro 96

was not actually the official song. Can you remember who did the official song? It's been consigned to the dustbins of football and music. Oh my god, poor them, poor them. No, tell me, who was it? It was Simply Red. Oh my god, I guess it was Simply Red, exactly. Yeah, Mick Hucknall, my god. I think it was called We're In This Together maybe, but it was... Yeah, totally, yeah. But it it was Badil and Skinner who captured that sense of emotion and throwing back all those years to 1966 the first major

tournament that England hosted since then and a more attractive style of football because Terry Venables had taken over after and sort of the unlamented reign of Graham Taylor who is let's say his football was slightly more industrial you're right it was a lovely hot summer there was a sense that British music was coming to the fore again after all these years of grunge. There was an optimism in the country. The sun shone. The group stages were fantastic for England because they obviously beat Scotland with the famous Gazza goal where he flicks the ball over Colin Hendry, spanks his volley in the net and then lies down and does the dentist chair celebration, which reflected the wild celebrations the England players had enjoyed on a pre-tournament bonding trip in

Singapore where they had had large numbers of spirits poured down their necks in a dentist chair in a bar but you mentioned the Graham Tully but I mean all those great teams whether it's the England rugby team that won the world cup but they managed to marry Gaz's flair with the ice cold professionalism of Shearer, just smashing in goals. And that's when teams seem to work, when you have both of those two components. Yeah, absolutely. And that team, I think, as well, were still coming together as that competition began.

So they started off with quite a disappointing, dreary draw against Switzerland. Played actually quite badly in the first half against Scotland before turning it round. Won that game. And then, of course, there was the penalty shootout against Spain. Yeah, lucky to get past Spain. Lucky to get past Spain. Stuart Pearce's penalty and that famous image of Stuart Pearce roaring at the Wembley crowd in redemption for his miss in Turin in 1990 in the World Cup. And then, of course, that semi-final. And I still find it impossible to think about that semi-final

without thinking about Paul Gascoigne's near goal in extra time which would have led to a golden goal so the game at 1-1 that's when all the drinking booze bullet tournament was less funny when he was obviously just a meter or two short of his pace yeah it just it's one of those ones that there was a really nice documentary that came out four or five years ago now five summers ago about that team that team. And they showed that, let's not call it a miss, but he's probably a sort of the width of a toe away from sending England to the final, isn't he? And I still find it impossible to watch without my right foot, just my right leg stretching out and my toes arching out as if I could somehow travel back in time and divert this ball into the

German net. It's one of those tipping, one of those sliding doors moments. Maybe not just for England, but maybe for Gazza as well. I don't know. Maybe he was always set on the path that he is now on. But you wonder if he had been the hero as England won their first major tournament since 1966 and done it at Wembley. I don't know. Maybe he would have taken a different path in life.

Oh, maybe. Maybe. It was nice to see, as a Forrest fan, it was nice to see Stuart Pearce having his moment of celebration. Yes. You're listening to Dan Snow's History. I'm talking to Tom Fordyce about Euro 2020.

More after this. Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt, and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series, Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer.

Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. And then we all remember, of course, the Southgate penalty. And for years, Southgate was it's one of those weird things. Southgate was this kind of national embarrassment. And now he's like, he's just, he's the wunderkinder. Yeah. And I wonder as well if the experience he went through in that tournament has helped him as a manager.

When England got through against Columbia in penalties in the last World Cup, he, more than anyone else, must have had an understanding of what his players were going through as they stood in the halfway line and they made that long, lonely walk all the way to the penalty spot. Because you can often see, can't you Dan, I think in the body language of a player approaching a penalty, whether they fancy it, whether they're going to score. And that night at Wembley in June 1996, Gareth Southgate walked the ball like a man walking to the executioner's chair, didn't he? His head was down, his shoulders were slumped. Even when he placed the ball on the spot,

there was no conviction in anything that he was doing. You compare that to the way that Shearer marches up to the ball, smashes the ball down the spot, strides backwards, bang. Everything about Gareth Southgate told you that he was full of fear and doubt and worry. So, mate, listen, maybe that helps him as a manager now. Maybe if England find themselves in a penalty shootout in these Euros, then his experience will help these younger players. I just can't stand watching them, I'm afraid. Being English, I know we've had one or two recent ones that have gone our way,

but I just can't really cope with it. Speaking of Southgate and England, is it heretical to say that England were flattered by their run in the last World Cup? England certainly had a very pleasant draw, let's put it that way. If you were to offer a route to a World Cup semi-final that involved Colombia and Sweden, you'd certainly have taken it. The other way to flip that round is, and I sometimes find myself haunted by these what-if moments, Dan, much like the Gazza one. There was a moment in that semi-final against Croatia where Harry Kane has a chance to make it 2-0 and his first shot saved and he almost

squeezes the rebound in and their keeper makes an incredible double save. I think if that had gone in at 2-0, England might have made it through the final and then you never know. You know, we're now used to the idea of France being worthy World Cup winners. Well, when France first won the World Cup in 1998 and they beat Brazil in the final, they were rank outsiders for that one because this was a Brazil team that had the original Brazilian Ronaldo in peak form, that had Roberto Carlos and players like that. And France ended up winning that final 3-0. So sometimes you can change history.

You can shape history, can't you, by just just being the winner just be able to dictate the narrative afterwards so I don't know I don't know if you're if you watched the world cup with your children how involved your your children got in it but my memory of that penalty shootout against Colombia is as soon as it went to penalties both my boys starting to cry and me doing that paternal thing of saying boys it's not over yet it's not over yet and them just getting the words out between swords but you told us that every time it goes to penalties England lose and then obviously the redemption I think is Eric Dyer stepped up to take his penalty me holding them both in my arms boys this is it ball hits the net

pegging it into the back garden Dan waving them waving them both in the air, and then glancing left and right over the fences in the adjoining gardens and seeing the same scene being mirrored. The sort of three or four men with their tops off running into the garden, punching the air, children being thrown in the air. Nice neighbourhood, man. Nice neighbourhood. Yeah, it's a football mad one, yeah.

Are England, this is, I can't believe we haven't asked this already, it's a history podcast for God's sake, are England historically bad at penalty shootouts? Yes, yes, amongst the worst. And that's why that win over Colombia was so epoch-making because most people were like my boys. They were convinced that as soon as it went to penalties, England were going to lose.

And you can go all the way through, can't you, from the World Cup semi-final in 1990 to the European semi-final against Germany 1996 losing to Argentina the World Cup in 98 it just goes on and on and on but listen you know the way those penalties were taken by England's players in that last World Cup it didn't speak about doubt it didn't speak about having the burden of history on their shoulders. There was a confidence and almost weirdly, I think, a matter of factness about the way that some of those players knocked in their penalties.

So our generation are scarred by those defeats of the past. But I don't know if this team and this generation are, because 1996 to them, a lot of them weren't born in 1996, which is quite terrifying for the likes of you and me. But, you know, it doesn't quite carry the same weight for them, I don't think. Because this podcast is listened to all over this United Kingdom and further afield, what about the other home nations? It's this curiosity of world football that England, Wales, Scotland in particular,

if they were together, the British team could be quite powerful. But obviously that will never happen. They would be unsupportable, wouldn't they? In a strange way. Yeah, this is Scotland's first major international football tournament since the World Cup of 1998. And in my calendar, Dan, on my desk here, I've had for a number of weeks the date marked of,

let me find it here. There we go. The Friday the 18th of June, 8pm,land v scotland yeah it's a big one so it should be huge this is how much technology changes doesn't it for that game in the 1996 european championships when england played scotland in the group stage a friend of mine who had pretty much equal split between english friends and scottish friends had quite an unusual setup to watch the game so they got two televisions this This is before TVs were all wall-mounted and flat screen. Two TVs, put them back to back in the living room and had an England end and a Scotland end.

No way. So I don't know if anyone listening wants to try and recreate that, but I think that's probably the most authentic way that you can watch this old rivalry at home. That's an absolute classic. Okay, so historically you've been to all these tournaments. You've done the punditry. I mean, what about the record of punditry?

Are you guys ever right about who are favourites, who's likely to win? Or is it like economists who don't ever predict the next bloody crash, which just ignore you completely? Yeah, I think if you stick to the sort of broader picture, you're generally on safer ground than if you go for the specifics. Aren't you in the predictions game?

It is difficult because of the number of teams and because football, unlike a lot of sports, let's say if you contrast football with rugby, it's really hard to pull off an upset in rugby because of the way the game is played. With football, you can have one or two inspirational players and they can carry you, maybe not necessarily to win a tournament, but very, very deep in it.

Well, Maradona won, it's always said Maradona won the World Cup with a pub team. Yeah, which I think is harsh on some of those players. But certainly the Argentina team that Maradona got to the final in 1990 where they got beaten by West Germany, that was an inferior team to the one which won it. And you take Maradona out of that team and they don't win it. If you take Michel Platini out of that French team in 1984, they'd still be a great team,

but they probably aren't winning the Euros. So, yeah, I think football is more likely to have upsets than rugby. If you think about when Amino plays one of the giants in the Rugby World Cup, if you think about when someone comes up against the All Blacks, there's almost never an upset. An upset is England beating the All Blacks in the semi-final last time out. But if you have, for example, Tonga against the All Blacks, or if you have Italy against the All Blacks, the upsets don't happen. There's a cold logic, isn't there, to rugby. Whereas football, you can get upset. So maybe that makes the prediction game harder. And also, and this is a slight cliche of punditry, the difference between the top teams now is so much smaller than it used to be, partly because so many players play in so many different countries so there is a knowledge about different teams and different

tactics and different styles of play that have led to a narrowing of the gap at the top so you could conceivably make a case I think for seven or eight teams at least to win these Euros where had you gone back to the 2019 Rugby World Cup you were hard-pressed really to make a solid case of maybe more than four teams at a stretch actually winning it? Okay, so last question, Bud. We've had the attempt at a breakaway league that collapsed within hours earlier this year. Where are we with national team football? How important is it? How does it matter?

Is it going to be pressured, do you think, by club football in the years to come? And how do the players view it? You think as an outsider, pulling on a national shirt must be just the best thing in the world. That's a really good question. And that is probably the existential question for international football.

Because there are some people who would argue that the Champions League certainly has a higher quality of football than international football because you have those conglomerations of talent from around the world in one or two teams, whether it's Real Madrid or Barcelona or Chelsea or Liverpool, whoever it might be. There's a concentration of talent in those teams that you may not get in international football. I would argue, and I think also commercially, international football does not make as much money,

you and I think also commercially international football does not make as much money partly because the qualification games tend to be more one-sided and it's all about the major tournaments which are every two years whereas obviously Champions League is is an annual thing but there's something so special about these tournaments and I think if you go back again to how we started this conversation with your memories of 1996 with my memory the first World Cup I remember was 1982 and I had a little scrapbook which is still knocking around i'm sure in the attic of my parents house somewhere there is something so special about your first tournament as a child the fact that they often come either in the summer term or close to summer holidays the fact that the games are often on at a time when you would

ordinarily never be allowed to watch sports on tv you could get in from school and you can watch a game at five o'clock or you can stay up late and watch a game at eight o'clock and for this period of an international tournament everyone's talking about it. The kids who are into football, the kids who aren't into football, it's the topic in the playground, it's the panini stickers you're swapping and I don't think you forget those and I think they stand out in a way that maybe domestic and European football doesn't always stand out because there is so much of it. So I hope there will always be a place for these international tournaments. I think there will be. They're very, very special things. And for those of us like you and I who are obsessed by sport and who, in that slightly strange way, sometimes mark our lives by major sporting events,

whether it's World Cups or Europeans or Olympics or Rugby World Cups, whatever it may be, they're a really nice way of remembering particular summers, remembering particular years, those games you watch together, whether with friends in the pub or with your kids and with your parents, those sort of shared experiences. European tournaments and World Cups bring nations together in a way that domestic football just can't. Agreed. Agreed, mate. Listen, how can people follow you through this exciting summer of sport? So I'll be doing different things this summer. As you know, I do my own slightly curious history podcast called We Didn't Start the Fire, which is a romp through the post-war world dictated by the lyrics of Billy Joel.

I love that podcast. I'm very proud to be coming on that podcast. Ah, I thought you would be. And I cannot bloody wait. It's so clever. It's just such a clever idea. I have got the lyrics forever etched in my head now, Dan. So obviously we've done so far,

Happy Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnny Ray, South Pacific, Walter Winchell, Joe DiMaggio, and many more. So yeah, that's where I'll be. I also do a podcast with Joe Marley, which you very kindly guested on recently, which is a lot of fun. So if people want to hear a bit more of my witterings, they can hear me in those places.

I love the fact that you're there to keep Joe Marler faintly on track. Faintly is the right word. It's just so good watching you guys interact with each other. I enjoy it. Well, Joe doesn't really interact with anyone, but you attempt to interact with him like a destroyer interacted with the ship Ohio as it was being dragged into Malta Harbour during Operation Pedestal,

that kind of interaction. Thanks, Tom, you're absolutely ledge. Enjoy this summer. You too. It should be a great summer. I feel the hand of history upon our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country...

Hi, everybody. Just a quick message at the end of this podcast. I'm currently sheltering in a small windswept building on a piece of rock in the Bristol Channel called Lundy. I'm here to make a podcast. I'm here enduring weather that frankly is apocalyptic because I want to get some great podcast material for you guys. In return, I've got a little tiny favour to ask. If you could go to wherever you get your podcasts, if you could give it a five-star rating, if you could share it, if you could give it a review, I'd really appreciate that.

Then from the comfort of your own homes, you'll be doing me a massive favour. Then more people will listen to the podcast, we can do more and more ambitious things, and I can spend more of my time getting pumummelled. Thank you.