Dan Snow's History Hit - The Fall of Mussolini

Episode Date: July 25, 2023

Benito Mussolini, the Italian fascist dictator met a gruesome end during the final days of World War II when he and his mistress were executed and hung upside down as a symbol of the end of Fascist rule in Italy. But, his fate had been sealed much earlier.When Italy's fascist regime aligned with Nazi Germany, Mussolini's grip on power seemed unshakeable. However, as the tides of war turned against him, his leadership faced unprecedented challenges. Military defeats in North Africa and the Balkans weakened his regime, and public support waned as Italians questioned the direction he was taking the country. As the Allies launched a daring invasion of Sicily, the cracks in Mussolini's rule deepened. Fearing complete ruin, King Victor Emmanuel III took a bold step and dismissed Mussolini from his position as Prime Minister in July 1943. But this was only the beginning of the dramatic events that followed.Unraveling the downfall of one of Europe's most feared dictators is Dr Christian Goeschel, Reader in Modern European History at the esteemed University of Manchester. He and Dan shed light on the interplay between the power, betrayal, and consequences of Europe's wartime authoritarian regimes.Produced by James Hickmann and edited by Dougal PatmoreDiscover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world-renowned historians like Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsley, Matt Lewis, Tristan Hughes and more. Get 50% off your first 3 months with code DANSNOW. Download the app or sign up here.PLEASE VOTE NOW! for Dan Snow's History Hit in the British Podcast Awards Listener's Choice category here. Every vote counts, thank you!We'd love to hear from you! You can email the podcast at [e-mail] can take part in our listener survey here.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. Eighty years ago, on the 9th of July 1943, the British, the Americans, the Canadians and their allies invaded Sicily, the Italian homeland. This was the first time since the first days of the Second World War that Allied boots had landed on the home soil of the Axis nations. It was a turning point for so many reasons. Today, I'm going to talk about what that meant for Mussolini, what that meant for Italian politics with Dr. Christian Gurschel. He's a reader in modern European history at the University of Manchester. He's absolutely brilliant. He's been on this podcast before, and he's going to take me

through day by day what the Allied advances meant for Mussolini, the fascist dictator, and Italy. Life came at Mussolini pretty quick. Within the space of a couple of weeks, Mussolini would be deposed from office, removed, imprisoned, and Italy then faced the terrible prospect of being invaded not only by the Western Allies, but also by the Nazi Germans, crushed in a vice. That came to pass in early September as the Allies invaded the Italian mainland and Italy's desperate government sought an armistice, but Hitler's forces were there in too great a strength and occupied nearly all of northern and central Italy.

The scene was set for more brutal attritional fighting that would last to the final days of the Second World War, and Mussolini would play a part in that. He was freed in one of the most dramatic special forces operations of all time, and he went on to be a puppet titular ruler in northern Italy until the dying days of the war. To tell us all about this extraordinary drama that had a very real impact on the course of the wider Second World War, 80 years on, here is Dr. Ghoshal. Enjoy. T-minus 10. The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima. God save the king. No black-white unity till there is first and black unity. Never to go to war with one another again.

And lift off. And the shuttle has cleared the tower. Christian, thank you very much for coming back on the podcast. It's great to be back on the podcast, Dan. So 80 years ago, Allied troops have stepped foot for the first time in one of the home nations of the Axis powers. They've landed on Sicily. Does that invasion send a shockwave through the Italian elite?

Or was there a slow, gradual process of panic setting in through 1943? It is almost unbelievable that we are talking about events that happened 80 years ago. The fall of Italian fascism began, but fascism is still so close to us. To me, as a historian of fascism in Italy, it feels as if these events happened yesterday. So in July 1943, the Allies land in Sicily. For the first time, Allied troops have invaded, or have started inv invading one of the home nations of fascism. Fascism in Italy was the oldest fascist regime that had been set up in 1922. And with the Allied landing in Sicily, the days of Mussolini's fascist regime were numbered. The Allied landing in Sicily

sent shockwaves to Mussolini and his regime, but it also sent shockwaves to Mussolini's principal ally, and that was Adolf Hitler. Yes, and with enormous repercussions on the Eastern Front and movements of elite units from the effort on the Eastern Front to Italy, extraordinarily important. Was his position weak even before the Allies landed in Sicily? What was his grip on power like? Mussolini's grip on power had started weakening already in 1941, 1942, when news from the Italian war theatres were negative in the extreme. There was a brief let up when the Axis troops seemed to be doing well in North Africa, 1941, 1942. Italian military performance was disastrous. But let's think for

a minute about the home front in Italy. The home front in Italy was crumbling. The fascist regime was increasingly corrupt. Daily rations were a mere 1,000 calories per person, hardly enough for anyone to survive. There was a flourishing black market. People, including members of the fascist party, started grumbling. They started complaining. They started lamenting the fact

that this regime was no longer fit for purpose. And at that moment, the Allies have landed in Sicily. The Allies are working their way up to invade the Italian mainland. Then some fascist leaders and some military officials, also the king, they all start getting cold feet. It is mid-July 1943. getting cold feet. It is mid-July 1943. The Allied invasion of Sicily isn't all. The Allies also increase their bombing of Italian cities. And it is on 19th of July 1943 that the Allies bombed Rome, very much the center, the epitome of Italian fascism. And what happens on 19th of July 1943 is that Hitler cites Mussolini to a meeting in northern Italy. Hitler is lecturing Mussolini, you have to do this, you have to do that in order to win the war.

You must fight back against the Allies more powerfully. You must mobilize the home front. And then as Hitler is lecturing, Mussolini, a messenger, enters the conference room with a message, the Allies have bombed Rome. Mussolini is shown up as a totally incompetent leader. He does not visit the bombed out parts of Rome. It is the Pope who visits the working class areas of Rome, which have been heavily bombed. Again, the days of fascism are numbered in the summer of 1943.

Does Mussolini go to that meeting with Hitler? Was he hoping to let Hitler down gently and tell him that perhaps Italy would be seeking accommodation with the Allies? What's Mussolini's hope at that point? Mussolini didn't have the guts to confront Hitler. Mussolini had been fantasizing about having a separate peace with the Soviet Union. For Hitler, this was total anathema because for Hitler and the Nazis, war against the Soviet Union was the essence of Nazism, the conquest of living space in the East, the genocidal reordering of Europe along racial lines. Mussolini didn't have the guts, he didn't have a plan on how to talk to Hitler, which certainly contributed to the disappointment of so many leading fascists and Italian military leaders.

They thought Mussolini is no longer the competent leader. But this is a man who had been supported by the generals, by the king, by the bureaucracy, and by the fascist party for 21 years. And it was 21 years after Mussolini had been appointed in 1922 that it dawned upon fascists, Mussolini can no longer lead us. What an interesting contrast this is to Nazi Germany, where there was no real opposition within the Nazi party to speak of against Hitler. There was an Italian army, you mentioned the Soviet Union, there was an Italian army fighting the Soviet Union against the Soviets, against Stalin,

and that had pretty much been destroyed, ceased to exist by the beginning of 1943. So an appalling setback there and in North Africa as well. Italian military performance in Eastern Europe on the Eastern Front was extremely poor, as was Italian military performance in Northern Africa. There is a misunderstanding I would like to clear up here. Very often we think Italian soldiers were cowardly, Italian soldiers didn't want to fight. That wasn't quite true. Italian soldiers were led some severe Italian war crimes committed on the Eastern Front, some severe Italian war crimes bordering on genocide committed in Northern Africa during the Second World War. No, no, well, that's certainly true. The myth of the Italian coward. Any veteran that I've interviewed has always said that the fights in North Africa against

the Italian army were on a tactical level could be extremely, extremely fierce. So Mussolini comes back from his meeting with Hitler. He doesn't go and visit the bomb sites. He has let down many of his erstwhile supporters by just completely failing to stand up to Hitler. What does the Italian elite do next? What the Italian elite does next is extremely important. So there are different parts of Italian elites. Let's start with fascist leaders. There is Dino Grandi. He was Italian foreign minister and for most of the 1930s, he was the Italian ambassador to the court of St. James's to London. Grandi and other fascist leaders, including Mussolini's son-in-law, Ciano, the former Italian foreign minister, they start to develop a plan. They work together with the king, with members of the army, with leading generals.

They are trying to find a polite way of telling Mussolini that he has to step aside. What they do is that they ask Mussolini to convene the Grand Council of Fascism. This is a body that hasn't really met at all given Mussolini's high standing within the fascist party but the fact that the Grand Council of Fascism is convened at short notice after Mussolini's return from his meeting with Hitler in July 1943 is telling. So on 24th, 25th of July, it's a very long meeting. The Grand Council of Fascism meets in Mussolini's residence in the center of Rome. Funnily enough, the room where they meet is called the Parrot Room, Sala del Papagallo. It's a sweltering afternoon. People are sweating. Late July in Rome, Mussolini is quite blasé. He thinks, well, the Grand Council of Fascism doesn't have any real

power. It is only an advisory body. And then Grandi presents a motion, which is essentially a motion of no confidence in Mussolini. There is a vote and 19 members of the Grand Council of Fascism vote in favor of the motion. There is a long debate. The meeting goes on until the early hours of 25th of July. Some diehard Mussolini supporters vote against the motion. The motion is carried. Mussolini goes home. He's very tired. He's still quite blasé. He doesn't quite grasp what has happened. He thinks Grand Council of Fascism doesn't have any real power. I'm still the Duce. Then Mussolini is summoned by the king, Victor Emmanuel III, who until then has protected Mussolini, the king, the monarchy, they have backed fascism. But the king

realizes that if he doesn't act now, the days of the monarchy might be numbered as well. So Mussolini goes to the royal residence and on the advice of the king's staff, Mussolini is wearing not his uniform but a civilian suit. The king tells Mussolini, Signor Mussolini, you are fired. After 21 years of service to our country, I've decided that it's best to let you go. I've appointed Marshal Badoglio as your successor as Prime Minister of Italy. Thus ends the fascist regime in Italy after 21 years. Why did Mussolini not have access to troops, garrison, loyalists who could just ride roughshod and ignore this? Is this a kind of logistical question or did Mussolini have a catastrophic collapse of his own confidence? Did he almost go quietly at this point? Mussolini have a catastrophic collapse of his own confidence? Did he almost go quietly at this point?

This is a constitutional question. Mussolini never becomes, unlike Hitler, he never becomes the unquestioned leader of Italy. Italy remains a monarchy. Italy remains a kingdom. The king remains the head of state for most of the 21 years of the fascist regime from 1922 until 1943. The monarchy and the king, they fully back fascism. The monarchy thinks fascism will bring us law and order. Fascism will allow Italy to punch above its own weight. So there is a lot of collaboration, a lot of understanding between the monarchy and fascism. But Mussolini never manages to become head of state. He always has to report to the king. So the troops, the army, is the royal Italian army that has sworn an oath of allegiance, not to Mussolini, but to the king. So Mussolini doesn't have the power to do anything about the king. He simply is unable to confront the king.

Hitler is extremely disappointed. He thinks Mussolini is weak because Mussolini doesn't confront the king. Hitler is extremely disappointed. He thinks Mussolini is weak because Mussolini doesn't confront the monarchy, but Mussolini simply didn't have the power to do so. So do we have to be careful about, this is a separate issue, one for the political scientist powers, but we have to be careful about calling Italy a fascist dictatorship then in before and during the Second World War? Italy is definitely a fascist dictatorship because the king remains a figurehead, but the king backs fascism. It is definitely a dictatorship, but it is a problem if we start calling Italy a fully totalitarian dictatorship, because there are some

limits to Mussolini's power. And in 1943, the king starts to take on the reins again. Let me go back to the story. Let us go back to the story of what happens on 25th of July, 1943. Mussolini in a civilian suit is told by the king, you are fired. I have appointed Marshal Badoglio as your successor. What happens afterwards? Mussolini is ushered out of the king's rooms. afterwards. Mussolini is ushered out of the king's rooms. Outside the king's summer residence,

a Red Cross van is waiting and the Carabinieri, the royal military police, arrest Mussolini. Thus is the end of the fascist dictatorship in Italy. Mussolini is taken to various sites. He's now a prisoner of the King of Italy. 25th of July is the day when the fascist regime formally ends in Italy. It formally ends for the time being. What happens is that throughout Italy, people start smashing up busts of Mussolini. They start defacing images of Mussolini.

They start chanting, well, fantastic that this regime is gone. While other Italians who have been members of the fascist party are very sad. They think this is really, really a betrayal of the reactionary king, of the reactionary armed forces against fascism. The period between 25th of July and 8th of September 1943 is widely known as the 45 days. This is an extremely tense period in Italian history. Nobody knows what is going to happen. How are the Germans going to react? Hitler is furious when he hears about Mussolini's dismissal. How is this new Marshal Badoglio going to act towards the Allies? What is he going to do about the fact that Italy remains allied to the Germans? Initially, the

Italian army fights alongside the Germans from 25th of July onwards, but there are many within the Italian army who want to push for an armistice with the Allies. This is also what Badoglio is doing. Trouble is, there are German troops, as you say, they're fighting alongside the Germans. There are German troops all over Italy. It's kind of hard to have an armistice if your senior military partner has got tanks and men all over your country. The German army has started infiltrating Italy already before 25th of July 1943, before Mussolini's dismissal. And Badoglio and his regime have to tread very, very carefully.

They must buy time in order to negotiate an armistice with the Allies, but they must also try to keep the Germans on side for now, because the German army is certainly capable of disarming the Italian troops stationed in Italy. So it is an extremely tense moment, and it is only a matter of time until a profound decision has to be taken by Badoglio. Let's not romanticize Badoglio's regime. Badoglio's regime is not a liberal democracy. Badoglio's regime is an extremely authoritarian military dictatorship. People still do not have the right to assemble freely. People still do not have the right to go about their lives as they wish. And of course, the Second World War is still raging in Italy. The Allies are doing their utmost to prepare their landing on the Italian peninsula.

You're listening to Dan Snow's History Hit, talking about the fall of Mussolini. I'm James Patton Rogers, a war historian, advisor to the UN and NATO, and host of the warfare podcast from History Hit. Join me twice a week, every week, as we look at the conflicts that have defined our past and the ones shaping our future. We talk to award-winning journalists. ISIS, this peculiar strain that we all came to know very well in the mid-2010s, really got its start because of the US.S. invasion of Iraq. We hear from the people who were actually there.

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and crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. So the Allies are victorious in Sicily because the timings here are so important, aren't they? When do they launch themselves at the Italian mainland? The Allies start landing on the Italian mainland shortly after 8th of September 1943. They start landing around Naples from the southern tip of the Italian peninsula. It is extremely difficult undertaking and making a landing on the Italian peninsula. It is by no means easy, but this all happens while there is this interregnum in Italy. There is this military dictatorship led by Badoglio, who, by the way, has committed grave

military dictatorship led by Badoglio, who, by the way, has committed grave crimes against humanity. He's the one who ordered the use of poison gas against the Ethiopians during the 1935-1936 campaign. So presumably the Allies are saying to Badoglio, you're not a counterparty, we're interested in doing business with it. They're saying we want unconditional surrender, are they? And he's trying to somehow save some vestige of that Italy that he recognises and has fought for. Well, the Allies make a compromise. They negotiate with proxies of Badoglio because for the Allies, for the British and for the Americans in particular, it is really important to get Italy on side. It's really important to remove Italy as Nazi Germany's principal ally.

It's really important strategically for the Allies to make sure that they can fight their way towards Germany by opening a southern front. So the Allies make compromises by negotiating with Badoglio. And the armistice is finally signed in Sicily in early September 1943 in a nondescript place called Cassibile. And one of the British officers present there was the later prime minister, Harold Macmillan. Initially, the Badoglio regime kept quiet about the armistice. It is announced on 8th of September 1943 when all hell breaks loose in Italy because the Germans on 8th of September 1943 on Hitler's personal orders formally invade northern and central Italy. So on the same day in 1943 you've basically got the British and Americans and their allies invading Italy and you've also got the Germans invading Italy on the same day. Italy becomes, on the same

day in early September 1943, one of the most important war theatres in Europe, if not in the world, invaded, formally invaded by the Germans in the north and the centre, and by the allies in the south. In that situation, the king completely abdicates his responsibility because instead of staying in Rome, leading the government, leading the Italian nation, the king decides to flee. He flees Rome, he escapes from Rome, and he goes into the zones held by the British and the Americans in southern Italy. So Italy becomes a divided country, the north and the center, until a line below, slightly below Rome and Naples, that is dominated by the Germans and the rest of Italy occupied by the Allies,

that becomes known as the Kingdom of the South, where the monarchy continues to rule over Italians under British and American supervision. So Italy becomes a divided country. And we have to go back to Mussolini. Mussolini has been in prison. He was taken to an island off the coast of Sardinia, where political prisoners of fascism had been held before. Then the Allies and the Italian government, they think it's going to be too dangerous if we leave Mussolini off this island and the coast of Sardinia. Let's take him to the Apennine Mountains. Absurdly, Mussolini is then imprisoned in a skiing resort. The former fascist dictator is imprisoned in a skiing resort. The Germans find out through intelligence the whereabouts of Mussolini. And on 12th of September 1943, in a daring mission led by the SS,

they free Mussolini. They use a glider plane to land on the Apennine mountain resort and they fly Mussolini away to an airfield from where they take him to Vienna. Mussolini is a fallen man. Photographs of his so-called liberation by the SS show him in a creased suit, in a civilian suit, he has lost the aura of being a fascist dictator. He is a broken man. But the story of fascism in Italy is not over yet. Because he's set up again, Hitler amazingly sets him up as a, allegedly as a head of state, doesn't he? Hitler decides that the best way to keep northern and central Italy under control is to restore Mussolini as the head of the so-called Italian Social Republic. Sometimes it's known as the

Salo Republic because the government offices are no longer in Rome, that's too close to the frontline. Mussolini has lost prestige, he has fallen from power, Hitler thinks he can't rule because the government offices are no longer in Rome. That's too close to the front line. Mussolini has lost prestige. He has fallen from power. Hitler thinks he can't rule from Rome again. Let's put him up somewhere on the shores of Lake Garda in northern Italy, which is also conveniently close to Austria and Germany in case the Allies should make a quick advance. So Hitler decides, we restore Mussolini as head of the state of the so-called Italian Social Republic in northern and central Italy.

German troops are the masters of northern and central Italy, but Hitler decides in order to allow Mussolini to save face, in order for Italy to be ruled as efficiently as possible, it's advisable to restore Mussolini as head of the Italian Social Republic. Others within the Nazi leadership have different schemes for how to rule northern and central Italy. The Wehrmacht think, let's just occupy northern and central Italy. Let's use all of the resources we have, including manpower. Let's loot everything from the Italian war economy, while others within the German foreign ministry think it is more prudent to have Mussolini as a nominal head of state to give Italians nominal sovereignty, because in that way, the Italians will be more likely to collaborate with the Germans. What was Mussolini's state of mind? He's been snatched from his mountaintop

prison. He's been humiliated. Does he do much as titular head of state or is he a sort of broken man? Mussolini is completely humiliated. Hitler humiliates him. So by Mussolini's liberation, the Nazis fly him to Hitler's headquarters in East Prussia, the Wolf's Lair. And Hitler refuses to greet Mussolini with the Heil Hitler salute, with the fascist greeting. He simply shakes hands with Mussolini. Hitler thinks Mussolini is no longer my equal. I can humiliate him in public like this. Mussolini is indeed a broken man, but he tries to crack on. Mussolini genuinely believes, as do many other fascist officials who work for this squalid Italian Social Republic, they believe that their duty is to redeem Italy's honor, to make many sacrifices,

to please the Germans in order to be taken seriously again by the Germans. So this is an ultra-fascist regime. There are no longer any constitutional limitations. This is an Italian social republic, not a monarchy. So Mussolini is now, at least on paper, the absolute head of state, the head of government. lot of tennis. He spends time with his lover, Clara Pitacci. The Germans open all of his mail. They tap their telephone. And outside his office, there is an Italian guard and an SS guard. So it's clear that Mussolini is no longer a free man. But let's really take it seriously. This extreme violence, Mussolini and his cronies meet out against anyone standing in the way of German occupation. The violence they meet out against anyone standing in the way of German occupation, the violence they meet out against Italian Jews in northern and central Italy, the violence they meet out against those Italians who courageously decide to organise an armed resistance against the

Italian Social Republic and against the German occupiers. So for the people who are lucky enough to live in the Italian Social Republic and against the German occupiers. So for the people who are lucky enough to live in the Italian Social Republic, this is still a functioning fascist state? The Italian Social Republic is a functioning fascist state which expels all Jews from Italian citizenship in 1944. It is a racist anti-Semitic regime that hands over most of the Jews living under its sort of rule to the Germans. It is a regime that does not stand in the way of German plans of mobilizing hundreds of thousands of workers for essentially for forced labor to the Reich. So the Germans conscript hundreds of thousands of Italian men as forced laborers and take them to the Reich, where Italians are housed in squalid conditions in camps where they are treated extremely poorly. But this is not all. Many

members of the Royal Italian Army refuse to fight for the Italian Social Republic, they courageously say, we are not going to fight for this state. So what happens to them? What happens to the Italian officers and soldiers who refuse to fight for the Italian Social Republic? They are taken prisoner. They're not taken prisoner of war. The Germans refuse to give them the status of prisoners of war. They called them the Italian military internees. They are sent to camps in Germany where they are housed in ghastly conditions. And many German officials, Nazi officials, but also some ordinary Germans, think it's time to show some revenge to Italians, to treat them extremely badly. Because what the Nazis think about Italians is they have betrayed us. They have stabbed us in the back. There's a Nazi conspiracy theory that Mussolini

was removed from power through a concerted plot organized by the monarchy. So there is a very strong feeling among Germans, not only Hitler, they think we must show some revenge. Italians are squalid. We must pay back what they did to us. The war on the Italian peninsula is so brutal, it's often forgotten about as people focus on the Eastern Front and Northwest Europe, D-Day and beyond. The Allies edge north up the Italian peninsula and Mussolini and the little tiny rump of his fascist states survive until the last days of the Second World War, don't they? Mussolini and his cronies survive until late April 1945. Mussolini, he's not powerless. He simply doesn't use any of his influence to ameliorate the fate of Italians.

Think about the German war crimes committed in Italy in 1943 and 1944. Think about the so-called massacre in the Adiaten caves on the outskirts of Rome, where the Germans execute, they shoot at close range, more than 300 Italians. Think of German reprisals against the partisans. Think of German reprisals against villages in northern and central Italy, where the Germans basically murder everyone who's living in these villages. These are extremely brutal war crimes. Nevertheless, Mussolini, because he's backed up by the Germans, he and his cronies, his radical fascist cronies, they survive until April 1945. And what happens in Italy between 1943 and 1945, it has been called the civil war by some historians. Essentially, there is a patriotic war where Italians try to fight against the German occupiers.

But there is also a more civil Italian element to this war that many anti-fascist Italians try to fight against the German occupiers. But there is also a more civil Italian element to this war that many anti-fascist Italians try to fight against Mussolini and his radical fascists. And then some left-wing Italians, they also think this is now the time to fight a class war against the bourgeoisie. It is clear that for the vast majority of Italians, the top priority is not politics, but survival. But nobody living in Italy between 1943 and 1945 remains untouched by military decisions, by top level political decisions. characterized by food shortages, characterized by the frontline approaching gradually, 1944, 1945. For some, it is a moment of liberation. For example, there is a huge triumph when the Americans liberate Rome, when the stars and stripes are hoisted on the balcony of Palazzo Venezia,

where Mussolini has given his grand speeches, including the one declaring war on Britain and France, then on the United States. But 1943-1945 is also a period in Italian history where you see a strong armed resistance bringing together people from totally different political camps, liberals, socialists, some monarchists. They all want to get rid of fascism.

They all want to get rid of the German occupation. I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Alan Orjanaga. And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries. The gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research from the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings. So it is violence and repression that keeps Italy together. German violence aided by the violence meted out by Mussolini and his fascists. Tell me about the violence that finally overtook him. me about the violence that finally overtook him. Unlike Hitler, who commits suicide on 30th of April 1945, because he refuses to surrender to the Allies, Mussolini decides to run away.

Mussolini doesn't want to commit suicide. Mussolini decides in late April 1945, when the Allies are outside the gates of Milan, to escape to the Swiss border. He's trying to get to Switzerland. He thinks, well, it may well be that we have lost the war, but that doesn't mean that my life is over. Mussolini is under no delusion. He knows exactly that he'll face the music. He knows exactly that if he falls into allied hands, he will be put on trial. He's trying to avoid that. But he also knows that if he falls into the hand of the partisans, he'll be summarily executed. So Mussolini joins a military convoy, a German military convoy. He's wearing a German army coat when partisans stop the convoy outside a lake on the outskirts of Milan. One of the partisan leaders immediately recognizes this man is Mussolini and he has Mussolini shot.

Mussolini is accompanied not by his wife, but by his lover, Clara Hitachi. She is also shot. The partisans who shoot Mussolini decide to take the corpses back to Milan. Milan was the place where fascism had been founded in 1919, where the fascist party had been founded in 1919. Milan was the place where Mussolini had spent his last days before escaping to the Swiss border. The corpses of Mussolini and Clara Pitacci and some other fascist leaders who have been shot by the partisans are attacked by people in the square called Piazza Loreto. Then the corpses of Mussolini and his girlfriend, alongside the corpses of other fascist leaders, are hanged upside down in public. It's a grisly scene,

and there is almost a carnivalesque atmosphere. People think, well, this is the unglorious end, this is the squalid end of Mussolini and his cronies. Given the squalid end of Italian fascism, its utter defeat, the catastrophic consequences of fascism for everybody in Italy, why is there some nostalgia today for that period in Italian history? There is some nostalgia in Italy for fascism because almost immediately after the end of fascism, Italian political and intellectual elites start developing a very powerful story of the good Italian versus the evil German. Undoubtedly, the crimes committed by fascist Italy almost pale into insignificance if we compare them to the Holocaust committed by the Nazis, if we compare the fascist

death toll to the Nazi death toll. But that is not to say that fascism was a benign dictatorship. If you look at the brutal genocidal violence the Italians meted out against Libyans and Ethiopians. This is certainly not a benign regime. If we look at the political violence meted out against Italians, if we look at the anti-Semitism meted out by the fascist regime against Italy's Jews, this is not a benign regime. But the comparison to Nazi Germany, the most racist, the most violent regime that helped Italian elites to portray fascist Italy as a more or less soft dictatorship. And there were no allied trials of major Italian war criminals. We had the Nuremberg trials in Germany.

We had the Tokyo trials in Japan. in Germany, we had the Tokyo trials in Japan. The Allies decide not to put Italian war criminals on trial because Italy is strategically so important. Italy, after 1945, is a country where the Communist Party is polling extremely well. It's doing extremely well. The British and the Americans simply do not want to humiliate the Italian nation by organizing major war crimes trials. So this amnesia of fascism is partly a product of the Allies, but it's also partly a product of a concerted effort of Italian politicians, of Italian diplomats, and of Italian intellectuals. There is a nostalgia still for fascism in Italy. It's more than a nostalgia if you consider that the current prime minister belongs to a so-called neo-fascist party.

There has never been a profound distancing of the Italian neo-fascists from fascism. The popular stories about fascism still abound in Italy, whereby Mussolini is essentially a decent chap who wanted the best for Italy. But if you look at the history of the fascist regime, if you look at the history of the Italian Social Republic, this man and his regime completely destroyed Italy from within. Some conservative Italian intellectuals started talking in the 1990s about the death of the fatherland on 8th of September 1943, when Italy declared the armistice with the Allies. Well, the Italian fatherland died much earlier, maybe when Italy decided to enter the Second World War as Nazi Germany's principal ally. A terrible decision, as we've been talking about on this podcast 80 years on.

Thank you very much for coming on and talking to us, Christian. How can people follow your work, buy your books? Thank you, Dan. There is a book I wrote, it's called Mussolini and Hitler, the Forging of the Fascist Alliance. Thank you very much for coming on and talking about it. Thank you very much for coming on and talking about it. Thank you Dan. you