Dan Snow's History Hit - The Irish War of Independence

Episode Date: July 11, 2021

11 July 1921 the truce that bought the Irish War of Independence came into effect. The negotiations that brought about the end of hostilities, between Irish representatives led by Éamon de Valera and Michael Collins and the British Government led by Prime Minister David Lloyd George, and would eventually lead to the breakaway of the 26 counties that make up the Republic of Ireland in early 1922. The peace was brought about as all sides in the conflict reached exhaustion but had they failed it could have lead to a significant escalation in the violence as the British Government attempted to pacify Ireland. Historian, author and podcaster Fin Dwyer joins Dan for this episode of the podcast. Fin takes Dan through the events of 100 years ago; the violence in Ireland, the divided opinions and loyalties on all sides, the end of the war and the beginning of negotiations. 

Hello everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History It. Big important anniversary episode this. The centenary of the truce in the Irish War of Independence. 100 years ago on the 24th of June, the British government reluctantly decided to propose peace talks with the leader of Sinn Féin, the Irish nationalist force that was fighting British crown forces in Ireland. David Lloyd George wrote to Eamon de Valera, the leader of Sinn Féin, as the chosen leader of the great majority in southern Ireland, and he suggested a conference. It was thought that if de Valera accepted, it might get this terrible war finished. If he refused, it would legitimise a British escalation, a more draconian, aggressive response to getting the war done, getting Ireland pacified. de Valera agreed, and the two sides

decided on a truce. It was signed on the 9th of July 1921, and it came into effect on the 11th of July. Negotiations continued and eventually over the winter 100 years ago 26 counties of what would become today the Republic of Ireland broke away from the United Kingdom which then changed its name to become the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland because of course six counties in Ireland remained part of the union. This is obviously a huge series of events and anniversaries, so we have been covering them in some detail on History Hit, as you will have heard. You can go back and listen to all the episodes about Ireland and the War of Independence there, some really good episodes, particularly the one on the anniversary of the British troops

opening fire in Croke Park in Dublin, the original Bloody Sunday. You can go to historyhit.tv and listen to all those. If you pay a small subscription, you get all these podcasts ad-free. You also get all the documentaries, hundreds of hours of history documentaries, more going up all the time. So please head over to historyhit.tv and do that. In this podcast, we're talking about what was going on 100 years ago, the violence in Ireland, the end of the war in the South, the violence in Ireland, the end of the war in the South, and the beginnings of negotiations. We are talking to the great friend of history here, Finn Dwyer. He is a historian, he's an author and podcaster. He has got his phenomenal Irish history podcast. He's done spinoffs on the Great Famine. He's doing an Irish War of Independence spinoff as well at the moment.

He's a brilliant podcaster, and it's always great to get him on this pod. Great to have him back. So please enjoy this special centenary episode with Finn Dwyer. Finn, great to have you back on the pod. Thanks very much for having me back, Don. Great to be here. So we talked just over a year ago, I think, about, I guess we were clarifying the details, like, is this a war of independence? Is this a civil war within the United Kingdom? What does that United Kingdom mean? But now we're approaching the end of that war in 1921. What was going on now in the summer of 1921 on the ground in what would become the Republic of

Ireland? I think for certainly a lot of people, they were approaching what was two years of warfare, different type of warfare, maybe than people had experienced, say, in France during World War One, that had been a guerrilla warfare. At the same time, it was incredibly taxing on the population. People are suffering police raids quite a lot in certain counties where Republican sympathies have been strongest. There'd been atrocities, for example, the city centre of Cork had been burned down, several towns around the country had also been burned. So I think on one level, you've got a population whose war weary. At the same time, that conflict has intensified, certainly through late 1920, you have events like Bloody Sunday in Dublin, where the British Army and British authorities, Crown forces, I suppose is a good way to put it, had opened fire in Croke Park on the same day the Republican movement had killed several key figures in the Royal Irish Constabulary in Dublin. And you have a situation where events like that have led to an intensification of the conflict. But in 1921 then, I think it's fair to say the Republican movement was on the back foot. You have a series of developments from the Crown Forces side, where certainly people like Neville McCready, who's the commander in chief in Ireland, while they are potentially looking at an end game, they are certainly outwardly at least adopting quite an aggressive approach.

Lloyd George, the prime minister at the time, is still outwardly at least adopting an aggressive approach to the conflict. There had been attempts at mediation, I suppose you might say, and the idea of a truce. But I think if you're in Ireland through early 1921, you're living in a situation of escalating violence and there's no evidence at all this is going to come to an end. And certainly for a lot of members of the IRA, when a truce is eventually called in July 1921, they're absolutely gobsmacked that this has happened. So I suppose it's a very difficult place to find yourself in if you're just a normal person and there's no end in sight, I think, for most people.

Should we think about it as a kind of classic counterinsurgency that we get quite used to later in the 20th century? You talked to me last time about the crown forces sort of pulling back to the big cities abandoning rural outposts inland revenue not working the kind of justice system breaking down what does it look like out in say west cork or mayo like what's going on on the ground it varies massively from place to place but if you go to a county like tipperary which had i suppose from one of the earliest points in the war, witnessed a very intense period, like what most people regard as the start of the wars and ambush at Solihed Beg in Tipperary. what would have been the traditional law and order, the British authorities in Ireland,

ceases to exist. So people won't go to the police if they've got any kind of an issue. They just won't go and deal with the police. The police are coming under increasing attack from the IRA in the county. Then in 1920, you get the establishment of Republican courts, where the Republican movement starts to set up what's essentially a parallel government. So you have this, I suppose, disintegration of one governing apparatus and the attempt of the Republican movement to replace that. Now, they're not always successful. It's a movement that's living on the run, essentially. It's got huge financial problems. It's trying to fight a war against the British Empire at this point, which there's no question is better armed, better resourced. But there is certainly a breakdown in law and order from a British perspective and government ceases to function. For example, in the summer of 1920, when they

tried to hold the summer assizes across Ireland, where you'd expect the normal crimes to be heard, quite serious crimes, they more or less collapsed all across the island because one people aren't going forward bringing crimes to the authorities people won't sit on juries no one essentially wants you to partake in them and even you get the situation where solicitors I think a group in society which most people would accept are very much part of the status quo they actually start using the republican courts set up by the Republican movement because it's becoming, in some parts of the country, the de facto authority. So you touch on places like West Cork, in parts of the Barra Peninsula, the Republican movement are essentially the government of that area. And then in the first half of 1921,

the violence reaches its peak, doesn't it? And the British government goes, again, it's scary how it's a forerunner really of many of the counterinsurgencies of the 20th century, but it goes for massive internment, doesn't it? From late 1920, the British government are looking at the situation and I suppose there's two options opening. Are they going to go to some sort of negotiated settlement? What would that entail? And then the alternative is this heavily militarized solution obviously there's all sorts of complexities in Ireland in terms of Ulster the six counties in Ulster that will become Northern Ireland are already on their way to forming what will become the Northern state but in the 26 counties you have these huge military operations now it's a huge it is obviously comparative to the war of independence but where thousands of troops are being used in these huge

streeps through particularly places like cork where they're trying to catch ira flying columns they come very close on a couple of occasions where they encircle tom barry one of the most famous ira commanders his flying column is encircled across barry and they have to fight out a bit and even though it's essentially an escape on the part of the IRA, it becomes a huge victory in many ways, or a propaganda victory. And that's where the war is in many ways being fought out. Militarily, there is no question the British Empire could have defeated the Irish Republican movement in 1921, if you just look at purely on a military level. But politically, they're being outmaneuvered by the Republican movement. They've got a huge groundswell of support, particularly in America,

which is very significant. But also they have to factor in these quite substantial Irish communities in British cities who are obviously their brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers are back in Ireland. There's letters coming back and forth and these people are also affected by it. So I think certainly Neville McCready, who mentioned before the commander-in-chief of the British army in Ireland a man who's actually appointed because he understands politics compared to maybe some of the other generals who had been appointed to Ireland didn't really get politics McCready did and he warns the British government going you can't fight your way out of this what military means unless you're basically going to get into a pretty horrific war. And you're talking about the type of war that had been fought

against the Boers in South Africa, where they would have to open up concentration camps and internment camps for huge numbers of the population. In Ireland in 1921, you'd be talking to 22, 23, that's not really feasible really feasible again because of those connections to particularly America the US government would have objected to this but also newspapers in England could come to Ireland and that's a big feature of the war of independence in Ireland obviously it takes a long time for journalists to get from Manchester or London to South Africa and get stories back they can come to Dublin on a day trip and they can go to somewhere like Balbriggan and see a town that's been burned by the crown forces. And I think that is a very important feature. And also the Republican movement are very good at operating on this

political level and they do outmanoeuvre the British government at several turns in terms of developing this international support. And what about support within Ireland in terms of people that were inclined to not take sides, be neutral, not care? Is it just the nature of insurgencies? They provoke massive overreaction by an imperial force or, you know, whether it's the Americans of Vietnam, the Brits in Ireland, this old, you know, hearts and minds question, which alienates the communities living in those places. For sure. I'm making a podcast series on the War of Independence at the moment. And I was just researching there. There's these things called witness statements that were collected in the 40s and the 50s

that there are memories of people who fought in the war. A member of the 3rd Tipperary Brigade, a very famous IRA brigade, talked at the time that basically the British army or the British authorities, if they had focused on trying to invoke sympathy for the policemen that had been killed, that could have been a huge problem for the IRA. But what they tended to do was respond with overreaction, often brutality against the entire population, blaming the entire population, assuming that all Irish people are somehow sympathetic to the IRA, that this polarizes the situation and makes people

essentially want independence because the current situation was becoming intolerable for many people. Obviously, and it's something that's very hard to factor in, is how many people want to sit on that fence. And there's considerable numbers of people who, certainly if you're living in Ireland in 1920, you have no idea what the future holds obviously in retrospect or in hindsight it's obviously easy to go oh well independence was going to follow that wasn't though obvious in 1920 even in as I said the first half of 1921 and there's a lot of people who are factoring in a future where Ireland remains part of the British empire at the same time you have to look at the republican movement to go are these people going to come to masters so I think you have a lot of people sitting on that fence and naturally the

way history is written and composed but whatever about being written by the victors or the losers or whatever the people who sit on the fence have a very very quiet voice when history is written even though there's probably most of the people are those people, right? I hate making these dodgy parallels, but I'm so struck by the big attack in May 1921 in Dublin where the IRA attempts to seize Dublin, to seize government organs within the capital. It's just so reminiscent of the Tet Offensive in Vietnam. And like the Tet, it's actually a tactical setback. The British government recapture all the sites

and take people prisoner and kill IRA soldiers but again is there a political element there which does that help to convince the British government my god they're operating within Dublin itself we're just not going to win this yeah I think there is that thing first of all someone being shot in a rural police station in a place that very few people have heard of is one thing. The Dublin Brigade of the IRA storming the Customs House on the Quay, a very famous building that dominates the city centre at the time, is another matter entirely. It also is that thing, you're bringing the war right to the heart of Dublin, I think a city at the time, I suppose outside of Belfast

anyway, considered to be the most loyal and the heart of the British administration in Ireland. At the time, the IRA was really at the pin of its collar by the summer of 1921, but this is demonstrating an ability to fight on. How long more they could have fought on is something that historians debate over hugely because by that point, the weapons are increasingly in short supply as is ammunition ammunition but also flying columns in rural Ireland are really on the run they're finding it much more difficult for them to seize the initiative which the IRA had done in 1919 and in 1920 in particular there has been a flip but the attack on the customs house I think kind of pushes back against that narrative. Yeah I find it so fascinating it's one of those insurgencies where everyone's convinced that they're losing at that point. It seems to me from talking to you and listening to

your things that both the British government and the IRA are fairly convinced that they're not winning in the early summer of 1921. Military strategists within the British army, I think probably identify a path to victory. Now, that's a path to victory where you suspend politics. So whether that's realistic, as I've outlined, that would have involved huge numbers of troops being flooded into Ireland. What we now associate with things like the Black and Tans would have to have been in the halfpenny place compared to what they would have had to have done. You would be waging war on a population. And also there's debate within the British government about what to do. There's a liberal wing of the government that wants some sort of negotiated settlement. Within the Republican movement in Ireland, again, you have this division.

You have people that are on the run. They're not blind to the situation. They had failed to import the large numbers of weapons they had wanted to so like for them that situation you'd have to have been wondering where the future lies in that so yet you certainly have a situation where the future is very uncertain on both sides and how this can end i think both sides would have fought on there's no doubt and you can see that in the irish civil war that follows us and that you've got a section of the IRA more than willing to fight on for what they believe the war is being fought over. I suppose a good point is that when the truce is called and it's called from politicians in Dublin and the word is sent out then to IRA commanders

across the country, they are generally astounded by this news that they're getting. And if their later reflections, which are obviously written in hindsight, are not to be believed, they weren't necessarily that happy about this. They believed that there was unfinished business. And in those last days before the truce is called, in the hotspots of the war, those attacks continue. It's such an interesting example of the Clausewitzian idea of all mouths Zedong talking about war and politics and their relationship because, yeah, the British Empire could have kind of won some hideous, protracted, Carthaginian counterinsurgency, but politically, there would be no coming back from that. Whether they lost Ireland in 5, 10 or 50 years, it was

over. British rule in Ireland had been delegitimised by this war, if it hadn't been already. In hindsight, it's very difficult to see how they could have come back, even in where the war had gotten to in that summer of 1921. It was different to other rebellions. There had been more violent rebellions in Irish history. You could argue the 1798 rebellion, for example, was far more violent. but the level of participation and passive participation, I suppose you could call it, where huge numbers of people in the population just won't use, for example, the police. So how do you win back that support? Now, on top of that, had there been an even bigger military campaign on behalf of the British authorities following

into late 1921, into 1922, as you say, it's very difficult to see how you get out of that situation without making the situation worse. It's not like the 17th or 18th centuries, right? These quote-unquote pacified Irish people can have the vote. It doesn't work, right? It's incompatible with a sort of democracy to crush entire people and then hope that they're going to be peacefully incorporated into a modern democracy. It doesn't want to happen. For sure. And I think the global context is also important. The beginnings of Indian independence are also starting around this time. You also have the fact that the Irish American emigrants, that generation that emigrated during and after the famine, have now become a very

important group in American society. That is very, very important because by 1921, America has essentially arrived in the world stage through the course of the First World War. You've had Woodrow Wilson preside over the Paris Peace Talks or become the power broker there. preside over the Paris peace talks or become the power broker there. You can't afford to alienate those. Anyone in the world can't afford to alienate a power like the US. But also there was Irish Republican representatives all across Europe, in some countries in South America. They had contacts with Indian nationalists in India. But again, the most important one being that presence in the United States. But also even, they had to factor in the hundreds of thousands of Irish people living in British cities at the time. And there had been attacks in England. Now, they were very limited, but there had been attacks in England. Probably one of the most famous events of the entire war in England, which was Eamon de Valera's escape from Lincoln jail in 1919 as well. So the war wasn't removed from necessarily the corridors of power in London in the way that

other wars relating to colonial and anti-imperial insurgencies had been. And as you say, the press coverage, also the King, a little bit like Louis Philippe in 1848, I guess it was. He's like, I don't want to shoot my way out of this. I'm not going to cling onto this throne over the corpses of Frenchmen. And it seems like the King George V was of a similar mind. Yeah, certainly he makes a very, very important speech in Ireland. He comes to Ireland in June to open the Belfast Parliament.

Ireland had been partitioned in the summer of 1921. And there's supposedly going to be two home rule parliaments or essentially self-governing parliaments, one in Dublin and one in Belfast. Initially hoped that this would kind of kill off the independence movement. That hadn't happened. But the one in Dublin never opened because Republicans win the elections or no one really contests them in the 26 counties. The one in Belfast, though, does open. and he does come to Belfast to open it and makes this speech where basically he puts out the peace feeders. Now he's obviously only doing it on behalf of Lloyd George's government and with this we often think it starts in July 1921. There had been attempts since late

1920 to try and bring the war to at least a truce. And a lot of this is, it's like any peace process. You have the key figures of Eamon de Valera, Michael Collins dancing around, Lloyd George, and particularly then you've got people like Andrew Bonar Law, the hardline Tory element in the cabinet who seem to just want war at all costs or any cost. obviously lloyd george skilled politician that he is is aware he's watching obviously within cabinet and wider society then in the summer of 1921 he flips and decides okay there's a huge debate exactly about what irish politicians at the time agreed to and didn't agree to because within 12 months there was

a civil war being fought over these issues so this has become quite controversial but certainly Eamon de Valera the president of the Irish Republic had arrived back from America in December 1920 and that allowed these talks to really begin but then George V's arrival in Ireland in June 1920 allows I suppose the king to say it it's taught at the time as well the fact that the king said it and not Lloyd George made the republican leaders in Ireland believe that it was being said more in earnest Lloyd George had said a lot of things in the previous 10 years he had gone back on his word several times whereas the king saying it in public to a degree kind of bound them to a certain course of action I think that was felt as being very important.

You're listening to Dan Snow's History Hit, talking the Irish War of Independence and it coming to an end 100 years ago. More after this. Have you heard of the teenage werewolf prosecuted in 1603? Did you know that the 17th century British government relied heavily on female spies? And do you want to know about chin-chucking and thigh sex? Of course you do. I'm Susanna Lipscomb, and my new podcast, Not Just the Tudors,

is a deep dive into what I like to think of as the long 16th century. We'll be talking about everything from Aztecs to witches, Velazquez to Shakespeare, Mughal India to the Mayflower. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. Subscribe to Not Just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Land a Viking longship on island shores scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the

poisoner's cup in renaissance florence each week on echoes of history we uncover the epic stories that inspire assassin's creed we're stepping into feudal japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. So you mentioned the Spits and the British government and the King having a little bit of a role perhaps as well. Where do you think the impetus is coming on the British side to make peace? I mean, I find Lloyd George such a fascinating character because he's a guy who

makes his name as a radical against the Boer War in South Africa, the kind of vicious pacification, counterinsurgency you see in Ireland in the early 1920s. He's now presiding over that effort. He's being advised by Jan Smuts, who famously was involved in the Boer War as well. Where's that impetus coming from? Who decides within the British government and why that it's over? I suppose I'm bound to say it comes from events in Ireland. While the Republican movement, and I think this is an important part of it, if you're looking at the world from the perspective of a British government politician in 1920, this future is very uncertain. India, obviously, is far more important than Ireland in terms of

resources, prestige within the empire, et cetera, et cetera. And that is now there's talk of an Indian independence movement. In terms of events in Ireland, though, militarily, the IRA has made the country ungovernable. They may not be able to drive out necessarily the British army through military conquest, but they certainly can make the country, as I say, ungovernable. So I think what it is, is essentially a government faced at that crossroads where are they willing to stand over who knows how long, how many years of brutal war. Also the arrival actually of Jan Smuts in London is a very important event because Smuts is also trusted by Irish Republican leaders because of his history in having led the Boer fight against the British. He plays an important role. And then obviously he's trusted in Britain because he had

played such an important role in the First World War and the War Cabinet. There's also the international conditions. I always go back to that. I do think it's very important. Had this happened at another time, 50 years earlier, at another time where Britain wasn't in such a position where it was so focused on international events, I think you could have had a more prolonged conflict because there were certainly British politicians who were, I would say, up for that. Of course, you're right. It's just like George, I guess, in smarts, accepting the reality of facts on the ground. This is kind of an unwinnable war, or if it is winnable, it's an unwinnable peace. It's so interesting as well, I guess you're right. It's a bit awkward having

just fought a massive war, fighting German Empire under Kaiser, fighting for Belgian independence, fighting for national self-determination, to suddenly find yourself engaged in a kind of crushing counterinsurgency, you know know and just feels out of keeping with the time that you're in it doesn't work yeah for sure because the irish republican movement had made this point right back to 1916 the 1916 rebellion this contradiction that britain would go to war over belgium but would stand over the subjugation of Ireland was this contradiction. Now, they do try and bring that up at the Paris peace talks in 1919, and Britain warns the US and everybody else that this is an internal issue for the United Kingdom, and it's nobody's business to bring up the issue

of Irish independence. At that point, Woodrow Wilson does go along with it, as do everybody else. The French aren't interested in Irish claims because they basically see the Irish Republicans in their view of events and I don't think this is in any way accurate had sided with the Germans in the first world war because they'd taken arms from Germany but I think while the Republican movement can't make that point in Paris it hangs over the situation that you can't present yourself as the defender of democracy on one level and then go and do what would have been required in Ireland on another. And I think it also comes down to the reality of the situation. Again,

I'm what you might describe as a cynic when it comes to these things. And I do think that it was about power politics ultimately and the ability to fight that war. I just don't think it was there. Unquestionable how much the British population would also have wanted a war that would have seen hundreds of thousands of people being sent to Ireland, casualties. And also this has been fought against people who are very, very like people who live in British cities and are the relatives of people who live in British cities. That would have had an impact too. And who they've been brought up to think of as fellow citizens, whatever the critique of the active union between Britain and Ireland. But these are British people who have fought alongside Irishmen in trenches and seen them as fellow

citizens until very recently, probably. So at the end of June 1921, 100 years ago, Lloyd George asks De Valera to come to talks things move along quite quickly just quickly talk to me the timeline these couple of weeks in 1921 yeah you initially have eamon devil era and lloyd george and there's letters exchanged they're actually all online you can read those letters online and they basically thrash out parameters devil era comes back to Dublin and this is where it gets very controversial in Ireland because what happens initially are purely, I suppose, preliminary discussions to see if serious negotiations could take place.

That's agreed and then those negotiations start in the autumn and winter of 1921. But crucially, Eamon De Valera, the President of the Irish Republic, does not attend these. Instead, a negotiating team headed up by Michael Collins is sent to London. De Valera didn't want his fingerprints on that one. Many a person has ended up in a fight over this, I would say. A lot of people would say that Eamon de Valera had a very good sense about what way these negotiations would go. He had got the measure, I suppose, of Lloyd George and that he knew ultimately when push came to shove that Ireland would be partitioned and that it would fall short of a republic, which would prove controversial in

Ireland. Collins goes to London with other republican leaders. They negotiate a treaty. It's negotiated under the threat of war obviously because if these negotiations break down there would be a resumption of war and that does hang over it they agree it but when it comes back to dublin very crucially eamon de valera says that is not what you went there to negotiate for that's not what i'm going to stand up for and it goes before the republican parliament in dublin the doyle when it's passed eamon de valera walks out and this C8 for. That's not what I'm going to stand up for. And it goes before the Republican Parliament in Dublin, the Dáil. When it's passed, the Aimee de Valera walks out and this is the start of the Civil War. That is one interpretation of it. I think it's a much more complex story though,

because contrary to like Neil Jordan's film of Michael Collins, it's a much more complex story. For example, when the IRA, the army that has fought the war of independence meet in March 1922 to discuss it, they overwhelmingly reject the treaty. So I think sometimes it can be reduced down to small numbers of people sitting in smoke-filled rooms as to why Ireland ended up in a civil war. And that's not the case either. Eamon de Valera defends his position in part by saying as a president, he shouldn't go because it's a negotiating team and he's the president of the Republic. It does beg the question though. And certainly in London, they face a very skilled negotiating team. Winston Churchill is one of those on the team. And obviously Lloyd George himself is at times

present. But I suppose you move from the truce right through to the treaty within like five six months what's interesting is actually on the ground in ireland while you have a truce ireland remains very tense in certain communities and there's also a bit of a breakdown in law and order so i'm from a town called castlecomer where there was coal mines strikes break out in that town like for example in late21, while this truce is on, because who is the authority in the country at the time? Is it the IRA or is it the British authorities, which seem like they're on their way out of the country? Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt,

and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. But the truth is it Fetter? It's the end of the fighting.

Was it held? Did British troops return to their barracks? Yeah, like I suppose the point that I'm making is more that tensions remain and you do get tensions over military outposts and who's going to occupy them and things like that. But overall, the truce does hold in the 26 counties. However, the situation in Belfast, and I suppose we haven't

really touched on that, but Belfast had actually become the most violent place in Ireland during the war. The war in Belfast is different to what it is in the rest of Ireland. It's heavily influenced by sectarianism. Catholics, for example, have been driven out of the shipyards, the major employers in the city in 1920. And the truce in 1921, it doesn't really last very long. It doesn't hold in Belfast and sectarian attacks continue. Many people would say that the War of Independence as such continues on in the North until 1922, before you kind of get a calming of the situation there. And it's a very different type of conflict there, though, where you have quite extreme violence

between catholic and protestant communities it shouldn't just be reduced down to sectarianism but obviously that's a huge fault line particularly in belfast but the highest number of casualties during the entire war happen in belfast far more than say dublin or cork which are often certainly more famous in terms of histories that are written in Ireland today, Belfast is often kind of forgotten. I suppose maybe in part because the legacy of that aspect of the conflict is still not resolved today. So I think that makes it maybe that one that's more difficult to deal with. I completely agree there.

And then we get the passing of the treaty through the British Parliament, which means that the beginning of 1922, I think it's a question that 99.9% of UK citizens would not get, which is, what is the date of the foundation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? It's a very new country, in fact. Like all these Brits like to walk around talking about how old it is. It's only 100 years old next year. For sure. I suppose it is that thing that it's the exit of one part of it. It is that thing that Great Britain and Northern Ireland, people often wonder about that status. I even meet people who would come over today, people from Britain who often think that the 26 counties is still somehow

in the United Kingdom. And it can be quite a difficult conversation trying to explain that. Yeah, yeah, it's not uncommon. It's not uncommon for people to think that it is a devolved government like Scotland or something like that. Oh my god, jeepers creepers. What day is celebrated or is it a difficult celebration or commemoration? Like it is such a messy process and in a way an incomplete process but what day will be marked as the 100th anniversary of the birth of the republic the whole commemoration of the war of independence i suppose has been one that a lot of people anticipated a lot of tension around just because there's certainly Sinn Féin has become the most popular party in the 26 counties in the last couple of months and they obviously have a very different interpretation maybe than say a party like fina gale who have

a very different interpretation of these events a lot of people predicted quite uncomfortable i suppose commemorations as to these interpretations now covid has obviously taken the mass participation out of these events there's not been these huge parades or anything like that. I think still in Ireland, what will be remembered is the Easter Rising of 1916. Even though obviously that is defeated, I think that is going to remain probably the most important day in the political calendar. If you talk about commemoration, the really difficult one for Ireland is actually just yet to come. and that's the civil war because the war of independence almost immediately leads to the civil war within six months of the formal end of the war of independence I suppose you have the civil war

and that's a much much more difficult thing to discuss because as I mentioned you have two parties Sinn Féin and Fianna Gael, who were on opposing sides and have radically different interpretations of it. And then even Fianna Fáil, the third party in Ireland, would have been against the treaty. Sinn Féin obviously would have an interpretation of history against the treaty. Fianna Gael would have been for the treaty. And I was actually talking to someone about this recently, and I think there'll be a lot of attempts not to really have major commemorations. There'll be academic conferences no doubt things like that but whether that's really publicly celebrated and you know that is because the Irish Free State and

it's an uncomfortable part of our history the Irish Free State with the government of what is now the Republic of Ireland within like two years or a year and a half of being founded was committing war crimes in Kerry against the Republican movement and the Republican movement committed atrocities back and that's a very difficult hard conversation to have following on from we've celebrated the revolutionary period where Ireland made great strides forward for example electing one of the first women to parliament having the first woman who's a cabinet minister and countess markovich but and i think it's the same in all countries talking about the darker aspects of your history and the more polarizing aspects of your history is very difficult it is there isn't much clean cuts uh well in fact maybe we should say that

in countries where there are clean cuts national days and celebrations then there's something a bit fishy going on i think that's definitely true and celebrations, then there's something a bit fishy going on. I think that's definitely true. I don't think there's a universal interpretation of history. If there is one, you should be worried. Yeah, exactly. And actually in Australia, Canada, USA, which are three countries I'm quite familiar with, those days are becoming ever more contested.

So maybe Britain and Ireland. We're actually four of us here. Everyone will join us in sort of ambiguous commemorations of the past finn man thanks so much for doing that tell everyone about your extraordinary it's a monster your podcast project for this big anniversary i've been doing a podcast series on the war of independence so if you know nothing about the irish war of independence it's a great place to jump in each episode focuses on the lives of different people involved in the war, whether it's been people in the IRA, people who would have been from the Irish Unionist community. Hopefully it's an accessible history.

The idea is that if you know nothing about Irish history, it's a good place to start. And you can find it at irishhistorypodcast.ie or irishhistorypodcast on iTunes or whatever. It's a good place to jump in. I think anyway, but I suppose I'm bound to say that. Well, I'm not bound to say it and i agree totally it's brilliant and so thank you very much for doing that and thank you for coming back on the pod man see you soon thanks very much dan i appreciate it i feel we have the history on our shoulders all this tradition of ours our school history our songs this part of the history of our

country all were gone and finished thanks folks You've been in the whole episode. Congratulations. Well done, you. I hope you're not fast asleep. If you did fancy supporting everything we do at History Hit, we'd love it if you would go and wherever you get these pods, give it a rating, five stars or its equivalent. A review would be great. Thank you very much indeed. That really does make a huge difference. It's one of the funny things the algorithm loves to take into account so please don't ever do that can seem like a small thing but actually it's kind of a big deal for us so i really appreciate it see you next time you