Dan Snow's History Hit - The Koh-i-Noor Diamond

Episode Date: April 16, 2023

The enormous Cullinan Diamond will be on display at Charles III Coronation, but the diamond that's missing - the Koh-i-Noor - is the one that everyone's been talking about. Its splendour captured the eyes and imaginations of rulers for centuries, from the Persian conqueror Nader Shah to Queen Victoria. But how did this symbol of Mughal power and prestige come to hold a central role in the British coronation ceremony? Dan is joined by journalist and historian Shrabani Basu as she traces the story of the diamond, navigating the epic twists and turns of South Asian history, the power struggles that have shaped the region and the bloody colonial history that brought the Koh-i-Noor to Buckingham Palace.Produced by Mariana des Forges and James Hickmann, and edited by Dougal Patmore.If you want to get in touch with the podcast, you can email us at [e-mail], we'd love to hear from you!If you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe to History Hit today!Download the History Hit app from the Google Play store.Download the History Hit app from the Apple Store.

This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. Hello everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History. The coronation is coming up and there is controversy, not about what is in the service, what's been left out.

The Koh-i-Noor diamond, mountain of light in Persian. It's one of the largest cut diamonds in the world, over a hundred carats. And it was, for the last, well, over a hundred years, part of the crown jewels of the United Kingdom. It's one of the most famous stones in the world. It always was, right from its beginning. It was owned by various rulers on the Indian subcontinent, then in Iran and Afghanistan, and it passed to the British as they expanded their domination of India. Queen Victoria was made Empress of India, but she was a slightly reluctant one. She wrote to her eldest daughter, Victoria, the mother of Kaiser Wilhelm, and she said in the 1870s, No one feels more strongly than I do about India, or how much I opposed our taking those countries,

and I think no more will be taken, for it's very wrong and no advantage to us. You know how much I dislike wearing the Koh-i-Noor. Well, she was certainly wrong about no more territory being taken in the subcontinent. The British Empire in Asia expanded into places like Burma after she said that. But she was ahead of her time in realising that the Koh-i-Noor itself would attract great controversy. Today, various groups in India and further afield ask for the diamond back regularly. It was at the time, and it still is, I suppose, a symbol of Britain's violent seizure of a vast empire in India. It's been worn by the sovereign's consort in coronations since the early 20th century, but Camilla will not be wearing it.

It's been left in the safe. It seems that this event is already controversial enough without busting out the Koh-i-Noor. Who can blame King Charles? In this episode of the podcast, I've got Shrabani Basu. She's a journalist. She's a best-selling author. She's been on the podcast before. She talked about her book, For King and Another Country, Indian Soldiers on the Western Front, 1914 to 18. She's a great commentator

on Indian history and the British Empire in India. It's great to have Shabani back on the podcast. Here are her thoughts about the Koh-i-Noor. Enjoy. T-minus 10.

The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima. God save the king. No black-white unity till there is first and black unity. T-minus 10. The Thomas bomb dropped on Hiroshima. God save the king. No black-white unity till there is first and black unity. Never to go to war with one another again. And lift off. And the shuttle has cleared the tower. Shabani, thank you very much for coming back on the pod.

It's lovely to be here, Dan. Thanks for inviting me. Tell me about diamonds. I mean, India was a great source of diamonds traditionally, wasn't it? It was. It was the one big source before the South African mines were discovered. So all the diamonds actually came from India at this stage. And of course, you know, everybody loved diamonds. So it was the big thing. You had these mines in South India, the Golconda mines. The diamond we're going to talk about today, that's where it came from. Tell me about the diamond, the Koh-i-Noor.

Right. Well, it didn't have that name. When I go back to the history, apparently the history of this diamond is like 5,000 years old. It was mined in South India near the Golconda mines. It actually floated up on the beds of the Godavari River. So it is on the riverbed. They say it was mentioned in ancient Hindu texts, so 5,000 years old. But we'll park that for a moment and sort of take the facts as it were. We know where it was mined. And then the story goes that it was probably used, this big chunk of rock was in a temple as the eye of the idol, you know like the third eye, so it was on the forehead of this idol. And then you have the invasion from the north of the Muslim rulers. They desecrated a lot of temples, so they probably got

the Koh-i-Noor from one of these temples and took it up north. And it would have been the Delhi Sultan, so the Lodhis, the Tughlaqs. And it stayed in the north till, of course, Babur, the founder of the Mughal dynasty, he gets this diamond. And then we have a mention of this large diamond, the size of a hen's egg. It is probably the Koh-i-Noor, though he had other diamonds as well. And of course, this goes down the Mughal dynasty till we see it with Shah Jahan, one of his descendants, the famous Shah Jahan, who made the Taj Mahal, loved architecture, loved jewellery, and liked to put precious stones in his monuments. And he put the Koh-i-Noor in the peacock throne, which was in Delhi. Tell us what the peacock throne, which was in Delhi. Tell us what the peacock throne was.

Well, this was this elaborate gold throne with gems and jewels with the wings of a peacock and the head is where the Koh-i-Noor was apparently kept, the head of the peacock. This is seen by travellers and everybody knows it. But even at this time, it's not actually called the Koh-i-Noor, it's called the Mughal diamond or just barber's diamond. So it has different names and that's how it's referred to. So it stays with the Mughals until, of course, we have this date, which is 1738, when a warlord from Persia, and he's Nadir Shah, he invades Delhi. Now the Mughals at this time, their power is declining. But of course, the peacock throne is still there. The Kohinoor is still there. And Nadir Shah loots Delhi, plunders Delhi, kills civilians. It's very violent. And then, of course, he takes the Mughal treasures and takes them away. And he

is the one, when he looks at this big diamond, he says, this is the mountain of light. It's the Koh-i-Noor. So he is the one who actually names it the Koh-i-Noor. And that name has stuck. And it's interesting because we Brits talk a lot about our own role in the destruction of Mughal India. But the Nadashan invasion and sack of Delhi, I mean, that was devastating for the Mughal regime, wasn't it? It was brutal because civilians were killed, massacred, and all the treasures were taken. So the Koh-i-Noor, the peacock throne, the other diamonds, there's this other large diamond called the Dariya-e-Noor. All these were taken to Persia. The Koh-i-Noor now moves

to Iran and it stays there. But of course, he's a warlord. So the wars are continuing and he is assassinated. In 1747, he's dying. And of course, he's got the Koh-i-Noor strapped on his arm. He wears it as an armband. And his general, his name is Ahmed Shah Abdali, he takes the Koh-i-Noor from him and he takes it away. And of course, this general then goes all the way to Afghanistan and he goes to Kandahar. And there in Kandahar, he changes his name to Ahmed Shah Durrani, and he becomes the ruler of Afghanistan for the next few years. So now the Koh-i-Noor moves from Persia to its new home in Afghanistan. Was the diamond famous outside the subcontinent and outside Iran at this point? And indeed, was it famous there? Did it already have an extraordinary reputation?

It did, because travellers would write about this diamond. There were so many accounts, starting from Babar Nama in Babur's own memoirs to other travelers who would visit the court. It is described. It was in the peacock throne. It's gone to now Iran. So it is a much coveted diamond. And so when it's come to Afghanistan, again, it's got this history where it goes missing,

it's lost, it's found. It ends up in a cave where apparently there's a mullah who's using it as a paperweight. So all sorts of stories. But these rulers of Afghanistan, the Durranis, now they are eyeing the Punjab because they want to expand their kingdom. So of course, we now have the next players in the game, and these are the Sikhs. They are going to clash with the Sikhs and the Sikh kingdom. And of course, the big person in the Sikh kingdom is a man who has one eye and his face has smallpox marked, but he is known as the Lion of Punjab. And so the Afghans have to take on this Sikh general. He was actually

a general in their army. His name is Ranjit Singh. And of course, he imprisons Shah Shuja. Ranjit Singh expands the Sikh kingdom. It goes to Kashmir. So it covers Punjab and Kashmir. And now he arrests Shah Shuja and imprisons him in Kashmir. And he wants the Koh-i-Noor. He desperately wants his hands on this diamond. He does a bargain with Shah Shuja. He says, I'll release you if you give me the Kohinoor. And so the Kohinoor now goes one more journey. It now goes to Maharaja Ranjit Singh, and it's now moved from Kandahar to Lahore, and that is its new base. So Ranjit Singh, so he is an extremely able commander he's carved out this empire in what is now northern India and Pakistan and beyond but he now faces an enemy as well

doesn't he Shramani of course it's a real bloody history I mean the one thing you can say Dan about this diamond is that it does not have a tag saying one careful loaner because it has passed through so many hands and there's just so many people who want it, who will do anything for it, blinding, torture, assassination, name it, it's all happening because of this diamond. Every jewel in every myth, whether it's Norse mythology or Greek mythology, every jewel has to be cursed. Is there a little curse going on here? It doesn't seem like whoever is in possession of this hangs on to it very long. Oh yeah, it was famous as a cursed diamond. I mean, there were two ways. They said one who possesses this will rule the earth,

and the other was it's a cursed diamond. We have literature about cursed diamonds. We have Wilkie Collins writing Moonstone, etc. So also the romance of this cursed diamond, you know, it continues. It's just legends and folklore that goes on. Yeah, it's a shame it's so ambiguous. If you get this diamond, you're either cursed or you rule the world. I mean, okay, great. Thanks very much. There's no two ways about it. Yeah. Okay, so Ranjit Singh has this diamond. Tell us about him. Is he ruling the world? He is. Well, he's, as they said, the Lion of Punjab. His territories extend from Lahore to Kashmir. But of course, he dies in 1839.

And once more, there is carnage after his death because there's bloodshed, all his successors, everyone is killing everybody and there's plotting. And eventually, it's 1843 when this five-year-old little boy with large eyes, he is the one who inherits this throne. His name is Maharaja Bileep Singh, and he's going to wear the Kohinoor for the next five years. He wears it as an armband. It's trapped on his plump little arm, and that's how it is. And Shubhani, has it been shaped and polished and made to look all nice? At some stage from that temple in southern India to the present, it must have been all fancied up.

It is. So it's a rose-cut diamond. It hasn't been cut. The descriptions are that it is the size of a hen's egg. So it weighed about 190.3 metric carats. So it's a large chunk of rock. It's trapped, as I said, as an armband on Dilip Singh, onto this little Maharaja.

But of course, there is so much violence. There is now the next players in this game. And of course, it is these men in red coats with muskets and arms and enter the British. I've heard of them. I've heard of them. I've heard of these guys. Yeah, so they are there. And of course, Punjab is so important to them

because this is the 19th century, early 19th century. We have the great game with Russia. Afghanistan is important. And Punjab is crucial because that's going to be the focus for Afghanistan. So they are looking at the Sikh kingdom. And of course, they go to war. And of course, because the Sikh kingdom after Ranjit Singh is going to pieces, the five-year-old Maharaja there, it's just perfect for picking.

So there we go. We have two wars. And the second Anglo-Sikh war is 1849. The Sikhs are defeated. And this 10-year-old Maharaja signs the deed. It's the Treaty of Lahore. So one of the terms is, of course, the kingdom is annexed, the treasury is annexed, and one of the items is that the Kohinoor will be handed over. And the exact wordings, I'll read them. It says, the gem that the Kohinoor will be handed over. And the exact wordings, I'll read them. It says, the gem called the Kohinoor, which was taken from Shah Shuja Ul Mulk by Maharaja Ranjit Singh, shall be surrendered by the Maharaja of Lahore to the Queen of England.

So it's written there. It's one of the clauses of the treaty. And this 10-year-old has to take it off and give it. So it was a famous thing. Like it was something that the Brits, they didn't just want Punjab, they wanted this diamond as well. They want this diamond because everybody wants this diamond. And the new governor general, he's in his 30s, he's a fairly young man, Lord Dalhousie. He has his eyes on this diamond and Punjab. And he writes to his bosses in the East India Company and he writes about the Kohinoor. He says, the Kohinoor has become in the lapse of ages, a sort of historical emblem of conquest in India. It has now found its proper

resting place. You can see from his words that this diamond is so coveted. It's traveled, as we said, from this temple in South India to Persia, to Afghanistan, to Lahore. And now the Brits have it. So it's put into a little bag and he's going to send it in a little, actually purpose-built little kid bag. Sewed together by Lady Dalhousie. And he himself, he goes to Lahore to take the diamond personally. So he travels up from Calcutta, takes the train to Lahore, puts this diamond in the pit bag and actually has it sewn onto his waist. He's going to travel like that. He is so scared that there's going to be an attack. Somebody else will want it. It's got such a bloody history.

So he takes it. He's taking no chances. It's trapped onto him and he carries it to Bombay himself on his person before it's then loaded onto the ship in several caskets and finally arrives at the offices of the East India Company in Leadenhall Street in London in 1850. Can you imagine how stressful that was for the captain of that ship to get the navigation right? And oh, my goodness. Everything. I mean, imagine Dalhousie. It was a long train journey from Lahore to Calcutta with the diamonds strapped to him. I mean, everything about this diamond was like so stress inducing.

It's a wonder they really wanted. But it was a lot of stress as well for anyone who got it. And then to hold on to it was the next thing. well for anyone who got it and then to hold on to it was the next thing. In this episode of Dan Snow's History we're talking about one of the most famous jewels in the world all coming up. Why were medieval priests so worried that women were going to seduce men with fish that they'd kept in their pants? Who was the first gay activist and what on earth does the expression sneezing in the cabbage mean? I'll tell you, it's not a cookery technique, that's for sure.

Join me, Kate Lister, on Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast where we will be bed-hopping throughout time and civilisation to bring you the quirkiest and kinkiest stories from history. As promised, there will be sex. Anne has said that Henry is not skilful in copulating with a woman and has neither vigour nor potency.

Anne Scandal. Everybody just descends onto this crime scene and it's being pulled apart by members of the public sort of as quickly as they can excavate the bodies. And moments which shaped society. Pointy boobs then became a thing and were still a thing into the 1950s. What more could you possibly want? Listen to Betwixt the Sheets today wherever it is that you get your podcasts. A podcast by History Hit.

This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts. OK, so the diamond comes to the UK. Does Queen Victoria, does it get handed over to her personally?

Of course, yes. It was meant for the Queen, so it's handed to the UK. Does Queen Victoria, does it get handed over to her personally? Of course, yes. It was meant for the Queen, so it's handed to the Queen. But it's handed on a day that she is really upset because she just got the news that Lord Peel has died, a former Prime Minister who she was very close to. This is Robert Peel. She is distracted and distressed, and this diamond is given. So she receives it, but actually she doesn't write too much about it. It's just a mention in her journals, which is very unusual because normally she would have written a lot about it and we'd have had a hundred opinions about the diamond, but she just mentions that she received this. But of course it's 1850 and the next year we're going to have this big exhibition, 1851, the great exhibition. It's decided that the Koh-i-Noor is going to be the

centerpiece of this exhibition. It's going to go on display to the public for the first time. The posters are there and the crowds, they come milling to see this diamond. It's put in a sort of cage, but horror of horrors, it only gets a two-star review because the Crystal Palace, where this great exhibition takes place, is open glass. So this diamond, which is rose cut, which is a different sort of cutting, it's not the sort of European cutting, it doesn't actually glitter. It doesn't catch the light in such a way. So everyone's a bit underwhelmed. The Queen is also a bit disappointed. They tried their best. They put it on a dark velvet cloth. They put lamps on it to make it shine, but none

of it really works. So after the exhibition, it's taken and the queen gives it to Albert and Albert is like, what do we do with this? How do we get this right? He consults jewelers and diamond experts and he decides to have it cut European style. So now a hammer and chisel are going to be brought to this diamond. What? And it's going to be cut. And horror again, it loses half its weight with the cutting. So from 190 carat, this big hen's egg is now reduced to a quail's egg. It's become 90 something carat. That's it. It's lost half its weight, but it does shine.

So it's given to Queen Victoria. She's happy to have it, but she has mixed feelings because she does realize that Dilip Singh has been through a lot. Well, what's happened to Dilip Singh in the meantime is actually really tragic, because when he was nine, when all this was happening, his mother was torn from his side and imprisoned. So this young prince is nine years old, his mother is taken from him. And the next year, his kingdom is taken from him. And then he himself is taken from Lahore. And he's sent away 200 miles away to Fort Fategar, where he is now to be looked after by a Scottish doctor, a very kindly man called Dr. Logan and his wife, Lena.

you know, lonely. He's just a child, plays with toys by himself, very English upbringing. And when he's 14, he decides, he says, I want to become a Christian. He wants to give up his faith. He is a confused young boy. His mother is not there to guide him. Kingdom is gone. On his 11th birthday, he actually really tragically, Dr. Logan wants to give him a present and says, can I have some of the treasures back and give him a few jewels, a few bits and bobs to please him and so they bring these out and they give it to him and he says that on my 10th birthday I wore the Kohinoor so it's really sad and it does make Dr. Logan and his wife who were very kindly people feel terrible about it they never want to bring up the Kohinoor to Dilip Singh. But meanwhile, Dilip Singh now decides he wants to travel to England.

So at the age of 15, he travels to England and it's going to change his life because now he's going to meet Queen Victoria and see the Kohinoor again. And that's quite a story, Dan. Wow, he comes face to face with the Kohinoor again. Yeah, so it's actually, this story is told by Lena Logan, Lady Logan. And she says it was absolutely embarrassing because the queen was actually very anxious about the Kohinoor. And after it's been cut, she wants to show it. She wants to know what the Leipzig, this young boy, feels about it.

She's very fond of the Leipzig. And she keeps asking Lady Logan, does he talk about the Kohinoor? What does he say? She's really curious. Can I show it to him? And Lady Logan says, well, okay. So there's this one day, 1854, Dilip Singh is dressed to the nines like a Maharaja. He's wearing all his Indian clothes and jewels. His portrait is being painted in Buckingham Palace by Franz Winterhalter. This portrait actually hangs in Osborne House. It's a beautiful portrait. So while this portrait is being painted,

the Leap Singh is modelling in all his fabulous clothes, looking really handsome. He was a very handsome young prince. Suddenly, Queen Victoria enters the room, followed by some guards, and they're holding a box. And she opens it, and it's the Kohinoor. And she gives it to Dilip Singh and says, what do you think? Do you recognize it?

Dilip Singh, he looks at this. He can barely recognize it. It's this little stone now. It's shining. It's cut differently. His face sort of changes when he looks at the new diamond. He walks to the window and holds it up in the light. Lady Logan thinks for one moment that he's so upset he's going to throw it out of the window and she is really anxious and very

embarrassed and then he just turns around, he takes the diamond and he bows and he gives it to Queen Victoria. And he says, as your humble servant, I hereby present my sovereign with the Kohinoor. So it was a really embarrassing scene. And well, Queen Victoria takes the diamond and she now wears it as a brooch. No qualms about that. How does it end up in the crown jewels? She wears it as a brooch. Even when she goes into mourning, it's there on this black outfit of hers. And she loves wearing it on special occasions.

She always mentions it in her diary that, you know, the Maharaja and so-and-so came, I wore this and I wore my Kohinoor. It is very prominently worn. And then, well, it's after her death in 1901 that this Kohinoor is now placed for the coronation of her son, Edward VII. It is now worn in the crown of Queen Alexandra. So that is the movement when it goes to the crown.

So it is placed in her crown and that tradition continues. So it is always worn by the queen consort. After Edward VII's death in 1911, it is worn by Queen Mary in her crown at the coronation of George V. So again, queen consorts are wearing it. And so for those who said this diamond is cursed, there was this theory that, well, as long as it's not worn by a male monarch, you're OK. So Victoria was a queen, so she was safe. And if the queen consorts wear it, that's fine.

So I think it continued to be worn and it ends up in the coronation crowns. And then it passes to Queen Elizabeth. So when George VI, at his coronation, she has a new crown and the Koh-i-Noor is placed in the center of that. And that is where it stays. The Queen Mother wears this at the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II. So 1953, she wears it. Well, of course, it's housed in the Tower of London, where everybody can see it. On her death in 2002, it is placed on the coffin. Once again, the Koh-i-Noor is there front and centre, sparkling. And of course, it leads to lots of controversy. People don't like it back in India. How interesting. And so let's come to the controversy in a minute. But

presumably, if tradition continued, it's not the sovereign wears it, it's the consort. And we now have a female consort again. So Camilla should be wearing it at the coronation. Well, this is exactly what came up. So once the queen died and suddenly all the crowns were on display again, there was this murmur which became more than a murmur. Everybody realised that the next coronation, the queen consort will be wearing the Koh-i-Noor in her crown in all possibility. So it really

became a controversy. And in India, one of the politicians from the ruling party said that if this Koh-i-Noor was worn again, it would bring back the painful past of colonial history, etc. So there were a lot of murmurings and also, of course, the demand once again, bring back the Koh-i-Noor started all over again. Now, why is the Koh-i-Noor more sensitive than much of the other loot captured by the Brits over the centuries, some of which have found their way into ceremonial jewellery and events? What is it about the Koh-i-Noor, do you think? It's really interesting because, you know, as far as jewels go, there's a lot that was taken as loot,

and these include Tipu Sultan's treasury. Tipu Sultan, the Tiger of Mysore, he was defeated by the East India Company, Arthur Wellesley's army, 1799. His treasures, his golden throne, all of these were taken, his swords, his throne, even his tent, they were all taken here. And the beautiful bird of paradise, which was on top of his throne, that is with the royal estates. But these things, these treasures are all locked away. They're in

the vaults. You don't see them. I think the history of the Koh-i-Noor, the way it was taken, the way it was coveted by so many rulers from all across, that gives it this romance. And then the way it was seized from Punjab from this young 10-year-old Maharaja whose mother was taken away. So this whole tragic history to it brings it to the fore. And then, of course, the Koh-i-Noor is worn when it's placed in the crown. It is there for people to see. It is very much on display, front and center, glittering in the crown. It is, you know, the jewel in the crown, the jewel, the most famous diamond in the world. So it attracts that

attention. It becomes the symbol of colonial rule, much more than the other treasures do, because you don't see them. You don't see them glittering on this crown. So when it went out on the Queen Mother's coffin, that's when a lot of the murmuring started. When Prime Minister David Cameron went to India, he was asked repeatedly, you know, give back the Koh-i-Noor. And they said, no, there's no negotiation. It's staying there. If we start returning things, the British Museum will be emptied. So all this comes up. But I think the main thing about the Koh-i-Noor is it is the symbol, it is the one symbol of colonial rule, where it was taken. And of course, it's one rock, it's a diamond.

The fact that the royal family, the British government, have retired the Koh-i-Noor for this coronation, what do you think that tells you about the state of relations between Britain and India and the nerves, the awareness of Britain's imperial legacy? Oh, absolutely. I think Prince Charles is quite sensible. The last thing he would want is more controversy. I mean, goodness knows there's enough. He would not want any focus going on the Koh-i-Noor once again and all the controversy if Camilla was to wear this. So I think they took the decision that she would wear Queen Mary's crown, which has a replica Koh-i-Noor and the actual Koh-i-Noor will not be placed on it. Instead, there will be these diamonds from South Africa, which were worn as brooches by Queen Elizabeth II. So those will be placed on the newly structured Queen Mary's crown.

And so that takes the Koh-i-Noor away from, you know, being front and centre and on display. But of course, I mean, the marmering will continue, but I think it was a sensible decision not to wear this. And of course, there's so many other things. You know, there's a trade deal at stake, so you don't want bad relations with India at the moment. Post-Brexit trade with India is important.

This trade deal is hanging on the edge and they need to complete it. So I think the government advice would also have been keep that low. Let's keep the bling down. Let's not ruffle any feathers. Wow. Do you think one day the Kowloon will end up heading back to the subcontinent? And by the way, if so, who gets it? Is it Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Iran? Who gets the Koh-i-Noor? I don't think it'll ever go back. I think it's here now for good. At the end of the day,

A, there are too many contenders for it. So, you know, Iran would want it. Afghanistan, the Taliban actually claimed it in 2000, which is quite, you know, hilarious. And then Pakistan says that after partition, Lahore is part of Pakistan. So that's where the diamond had its last place. So way back in the 1970s, actually, when Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was prime minister, they put in a claim for the Koh-i-Noor, which was dismissed. And India, the cases keep coming and going, you know, every now and then there'll be a case saying, bring back the Kohinoor. It's like background music that keeps going on. But I don't think it'll ever go back. What I do think is that people get really annoyed that they have to pay to go.

I mean, this jewel was taken at gunpoint. It was not a gift. Everybody knows that. And it is the most famous diamond. So I think people really get annoyed with the fact that they have to pay to go see the Koh-i-Noor if they want to see it. So I feel that maybe if it went to one of the museums, one of the national museums where the public could see it,

that would probably be a better home for it. So, you know, the V&A or Queen Victoria's crown is already there in the V&A. This could join that. And then people can go and see it. And well, that's just my theory. So interesting that the story of the Koh-i-Noor is absolutely not yet over. It could keep moving. Oh, yes, it would. It's just like it kept moving. Well, it's been sitting in the tower for many years now. Let's see how things shape. But I think it could, under pressure, it won't go back to India.

It definitely won't go to Pakistan. I mean, if anything, India has the claim on it because the diamond did come from the Golconda mines there. It was part of the Mughal Empire. The Sikh Empire is also seen as largely part of India. But the point is, it's too controversial and it's just better off here. But it might move to a different place. Well, thank you so much for talking us through that. The controversy doesn't look like it's going anywhere, Shrabani. It's not going anywhere anytime soon. No, we're not getting rid of the bling yet. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast. That's fantastic.

Thank you. It's lovely to be here, Deb. This is History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas, and the courage to stand alone, including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers in the First World War. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, Sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. Join me, Alex von Tunzelman, for History's Heroes. Subscribe to History's Heroes wherever you get your podcasts.