Dan Snow's History Hit - The Mary Celeste: Ghost Ship

Episode Date: April 2, 2024

In 1872 the ghost ship Mary Celeste is found sailing across the Atlantic without a single crew member left onboard. Theories over what happened on the Mary Celeste range from insurance fraud to a violent mutiny... this week, Maddy and Anthony discuss what they think happened to the ship's crew.Edited by Tom Delargy. Produced by Freddy Chick. Senior Producer is Charlotte Long.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Get a subscription for £1 per month for 3 months with code DANSNOW sign up at https://historyhit/subscription/We'd love to hear from you- what do you want to hear an episode on? You can email the podcast at [e-mail] can take part in our listener survey here.

Hi everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. On the 4th of December 1872, a Canadian-built merchant ship was discovered adrift and deserted in the Atlantic Ocean off the Azores. Her name was the Mary Celeste. Sometimes, folks, very rarely, things break through the glass ceiling and they just worm their way into our consciousness. They become a motif. They become a cultural trope. The Titanic hitting an iceberg, the black hole of Calcutta. Well, the Mary Celeste is one of those things. The ghost ship. How many times has your friend come out from checking out a bar or a nightclub and he says,

it's like the bloody Mary Celeste in there. Well, let's see what the Mary Celeste was in fact like in real life. In this episode, we are using one of our sibling podcasts, the superbly successful After Dark podcast. They've just been nominated for all sorts of moral awards, so well done to them. They have done an episode on the ghost ship, the Mary Celeste, so we can see what truths lie beyond the myth. You're going to love this episode of After Dark. Enjoy. December the 4th, 1872, and we're standing in the captain's cabin aboard the British brigantine, the Dei Gratia, currently sailing in the Atlantic Ocean. We've just passed the volcanic archipelago of the Azores and are heading for the Portuguese coast.

Our captain, David Morehouse, is absorbed in his work, pouring over maps spread across his desk when a crewman knocks and enters. The captain, he says, is wanted on deck. Something odd has been spotted. He won't say more. We follow Morehouse up onto the deck. It's freezing out here beneath a grey sky. Surrounding us on all sides is an even greyer sea. Several of the crew have gathered here and wait anxiously for Morehouse. Someone hands him a telescope, though the thing they're all watching is close enough that he doesn't need it. A second ship, another merchant Brigantine it looks like, is coming towards them. No, at them. Its sails are partly set, though torn in places, their ropes hanging loosely.

The vessel is lurching oddly, and a quick scan through the magnifying glass shows Morehouse there is no one above deck. The captain hesitates. He needs to stay on course he has goods to deliver and a living to make but he also knows that this whatever this is is now his responsibility the day gratia he understands cannot pass without investigating further and so he sends two men aboard the pair crossing the sea in between the ships in a small rowing boat before climbing the side of this mysterious hulk. As they do so they catch a glimpse of her name, Mary Celeste, painted on the stern. Aboard they are met with silence save for the creaking of the cabin doors that swing open and shut with the lurching of the waves. The main hatch cover to the ship below is closed and secure. Though they notice two smaller hatches are open, their covers discarded on the deck. Then there's the lifeboat, or rather the lack of it. It's missing.

Inside the hold is three feet of water. It's got into the cabins and soaked belongings, personal items left in situ, a sheathed sword under a bed, galley equipment stowed neatly. Then there's the supplies on board. Water, food, and around 1,700 gallons of alcohol, its cargo. The ship's papers are missing, as are the captain's navigational tools, but there's nothing to suggest any violence has taken place here, no disaster spelled out in smashed crockery and splintered beams. The captain's log, left open on a table, has a recent entry. Nine days ago, the Mary Celeste was near the coast of Santa Maria Island, almost 400 nautical miles from where she is now. So what's happened to those on board?

And what, wonders Morehouse, should happen next? Hello and welcome to After Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal. I, as usual, am Dr Anthony Delaney. And I am Dr Maddy Pelling. And today we're taking you back to the high seas. We love a ghostly ship here on After Dark and the mysteries that are surrounding them and that have ignited conversation and debate with audiences over the last century. So this is a really interesting case, Maddy. It is. It's a case that has absolutely confounded people for well over a century. We're in the 1870s here. So it's a case I think lots of our listeners would already know about. So the Mary Celeste is, of course, a famous ghost ship where her entire crew

seemed to have disappeared without a trace. And at the moment that it's discovered in the 1870s, it sparks this worldwide speculation in the media, in Britain, in and America across the British Empire. And it seems to be a puzzle that actually has no answer. And even today, people are still debating it. Gives a bit of an idea of the context of the time of the 1870s. What's happening? Well, in Britain, Prince Albert has been dead for a decade at this point. But Victoria in 1876 will be crowned, titled the Empress of India. So the British Empire that she sits at the head of is arguably at its height at this point, I think it's fair to say. And there are trade routes all over the world. And very importantly, there's merchant ships of all nations travelling well-worn routes across the globe now. And that is the

context for this story. We're dealing with a ship that is a merchant ship. The Mary Celeste is an American ship rather than a British ship, but the Dei Gratia, the ship that finds her, is a British merchant ship. So that's the world that we're coming into. I love this idea of busy seas, which even from the 18th century, but certainly into the 19th century, that has ramped up. And those trading routes that you're talking about are particularly busy. They're international. They're far more international than they had even been in the 18th century. And that's saying something because they were busy and international even then. But what's interesting to take into account that amongst

those ships coming and going, what's not unusual or not wholly unusual is the idea of a ghost ship or a phantom ship. And these are vessels that are now and then found sailing the seas with no living crew aboard. And there are plenty of examples that pop up in history and in folklore. And actually the history and the folklore gets a little meshed, doesn't it? So can you give us a few examples of some of these historical myths that have grown up around some of these phantom ships? I sure can. But the important thing to say here is, like you say, Anthony, this was not unusual in reality as well. So if you were sailing some of these trade routes, you could come across a ship without a crew. The crew may have vacated in a rush for whatever reason.

The threat of piracy along some coasts, faults with the ship itself, maybe mutiny. And people would decant into lifeboats and leave the ship. And if you were the next ship who came along and found it, the best thing to do would be to sink it, to sink that ship. So I think that's kind of amazing in and of itself to think in this world, in the 1870s, there are just ships adrift in the ocean with nobody on them. That seems kind of mad. So you can understand how that then translates into stories.

And if we're thinking in terms of broader maritime histories, certainly to do with the British and the British Empire, it's the 18th century that we see this real boom in maritime travel, whether that's military or for trade. Obviously, in the 18th century, it's a bit of both, a lot of both. And that's when we start to get the origins of some of these stories. So we have the Flying Dutchman. Any fans of the Disney Pirates of the Caribbean will know it well. And this is a legend that dates to, I think, the early 18th century, possibly earlier. From reading a little bit about it, it's most likely a reference to the Dutch East India Company, which was a rival of the British East India Company and British

trade interests around the globe. And it's sort of, I suppose, a phantom threat, something that you would sort of look out for on the ocean. You'd be worried about meeting the Dutch, maybe coming into conflict with them. And the Flying Dutchman becomes this sort of symbol of maritime threat. But we have loads more. We have in 1748, there's the Lady Loverbond, which is a ship wrecked off Goodwin Sands, which is a famously treacherous stretch of ocean in the, I think it's in the English Channel, is it off the coast of Kent, I think? And supposedly this ship is wrecked and then it appears every 50 years after that, people see it. In Canada, we get a ghost ship that runs the Northumberland Strait, which is this

stretch of water between Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick. And it's regularly seen by various different witnesses on fire going across there. I like that. A little bit of dramatic flair. It's standing itself out from other ghost ships. You can't beat a bit of a flaming burning ship. Well, of course, the fear of fire on a boat is very serious. It's very real. A lot of ships in the 18th into the 19th century i suppose are carrying things like gunpowder the mary celeste is carrying alcohol uh industrial strength pure alcohol we're not talking a few bottles of red wine here if that goes up in flames if that explodes there's going to be significant damage if you're in the middle of the ocean you've got nowhere to go nowhere to escape to it's a really serious problem and i think again that comes in not only is it dramatic and sort of spooky and makes for a great sort of phantom you

know coming out of the mist across the waves but i think it is very much rooted in those real fears in the 19th century obviously we have the mary celeste which we're going to go on to talk about we also have in 1878 so six years after the maryeste is discovered, the HMS Eurydice, which sinks off the Isle of Wight in the English Channel. And it's cited many, many times into the 20th century. It's seen by a Royal Navy submarine in the 1930s. And get this, Queen Elizabeth II's son, Prince Edward, claims to have seen it in 1998 while he was out on the Isle of Wight filming for an ITV documentary. Love it. We need to get him on. Does he say this in the documentary or he says this afterwards just anecdotally?

I think he was out filming a different documentary and anecdotally said when he was out there. This is online. This is like a well-known story. Yeah, fascinating. So the tradition of ghost ships, phantom ships are alive and well, well into the 20th century. And the Mary Celeste in particular, I think it's fair to say, is endured in our cultural imagination even to today. And people still debate what happened. what happened? So you mentioned some of those individuals that are on board, but who, give us an idea of the broader cast that we're going to be dealing with in this episode when we're talking about the Mary Celeste. So we've already met some of the crew of the Dei Gratia. That's the ship that discovers the Mary Celeste adrift. We've met their captain, David Morehouse. Now on the Mary Celeste itself, we know that it left New York Harbour and it's heading for Genoa in Italy. And its captain was one Benjamin Briggs. Interestingly, on board, he had his wife, he had their two-year-old daughter, and he has seven crewmen. I find

this quite unusual. I mean, not to say that women weren't sailing the seas in the 18th, 19th centuries, but there's something quite domestic about bringing your wife and your child. Yes, yeah. So before we get into a little bit more detail about who Benjamin Briggs is and who his family is, I do have a photograph of him to show you. For listeners, we will put this up as usual on our social media. You can follow us on Instagram and take a look at this image. Anthony, I want you to describe Benjamin Briggs for me, please. I mean, are we allowed to say this about history people? He's a bit of a ride.

I think he's quite handsome. Yeah, he's a good looking man. He has an awful beard. It looks like a theatrical prop. He looks a little bit like Leonardo DiCaprio, a little bit like a kind of a younger Leonardo DiCaprio. He's very square faced. He has a great set of eyes and I'm well done to that man. His hair is slicked back. Apart from there's a few little tufts over his ears, which need a little bit of attention. He's wearing a suit, which you can just about see. He's got a kind of a half smile on his face. And as I say, a beard that looks something akin to a miniature schnauzer accessory. Yeah, he looks very competent. I would trust him to sailorship. Definitely. And I think that is exactly spot on. So he was known for being fair, for being calm,

for being very competent. He looks like that. Yeah, he does. Yeah. And I think that really does come across. He has a very direct gaze in this picture. He's looking straight at you. And I think you can really feel some of his personality. So he was born in Massachusetts in 1835, and he married Sarah Elizabeth Cobb, who was the daughter of a vicar. And he was the father to little Arthur and afterwards, little Sophia Matilda. We know about him that he was really devoutly religious, hence the marrying of the vicar's daughter, I suppose. And he was also a firm believer in abstinence. So he's a teetotaler and lived quite a sober, sombre life, I think it's fair to say. He had a lot of experience at sea, so he'd captained several ships before the Mary Celeste.

And I think that's important when we think about some of the theories that come up around this ship. He also was used to bringing his family with him. So he'd actually taken Sarah, his wife, on their honeymoon. He'd sailed to Europe in 1871, so a year before the Mary Celeste is found adrift in the Atlantic Ocean. We know that he was actually thinking about settling down on the land and buying a hardware store. But at the last minute, he purchased a share in the Mary Celeste with a view, I suppose, to taking his family with him on some of the voyages that would happen. He actually modified the cabin of the Mary Celeste to accommodate his

wife and a small child, which is interesting. So it's a very domestic setup, I think. And I wonder if that was part of the appeal of this job for a 19th century man in this period. It's an opportunity to go out and see the world, but there's an air of respectability. Someone who is religious, someone who is sober, who believes in abstinence, bringing your family with you during your work as a merchant at sea, it feels respectable. It feels a little bit cosy, I think. I feel sorry for objectifying the poor man now because he's such a stand-up 19th century guy. But listen, okay, let's just recap what we know so far. So we have the Mary Celeste who has been abandoned.

It has sailed from New York Harbor in 1872, and it's on its way to Genoa, right? Yes. 400 miles east of the Azores, I think you said, that's found by another ship, the Dei Gratia. And on board, everything seems fine. So there was a captain's log, I think you said it was nine days before,

and all the food and the water is all in good supply everything seems okay yeah so they have six months worth of food and water still on board which suggests you know they haven't taken any of that with them if they've if they've left the ship why is that all still in place there are there are real mysteries here morehouse the captain of the day gratia is trying to work out what to do and he because he's a merchant captain of a merchant ship as well and he's very aware that the mary celeste is carrying a huge amount of alcohol as its cargo and that he can potentially take some of that and deliver it on behalf of the mary celeste deliver the ship as well and claim a reward that was was a typical thing to do. So

it was understood that you would be able to claim back some of the value of the cargo of the vessel itself and that there'll be a sort of heroic award for well done, you've brought the ship back. So he decides to split the small crew that he has. He has a similar size crew to the Mary Celeste, I think seven people on board. He splits that crew between the two vessels, and they're a British crew, so they have to look for the closest British-held territory, which is Gibraltar. Gibraltar, of course, is the spit of land on the tip of the Iberian Peninsula with Spain. And it's been an important strategic outpost for British maritime power in particular since at least the 18th century. And it still is in the 1870s. So he sets sail with the Mary Celeste, not exactly in tow, it's being sailed separately. It's

still in working order. There's nothing wrong with it. So they sail both ships into harbour at Gibraltar. Interestingly, and I just love this detail, when they do that, the journey from out in the atlantic into gibraltar goes really badly and they are beset by absolutely terrible eerie thick fog and i just think there must that must have been quite a terrifying moment not only to have found this really really sinister abandoned ship you can't work out what's gone on the people people have disappeared. It's all very odd. And then you part the crew that has to then go on board and sail it in, and they have a terrible time and they're just surrounded by mist and can't see anything. Atmospheric. Yeah, I like the idea of, well, it's not just an idea, I guess it's recorded,

but I like this idea of them entering into Porta Gibraltar through this mist and fog. And it kind of adds this almost heroic element to it. And I know that there was a lot of media attention around their return and having found this phantom or ghost ship. And that just really adds to the story because that's what the press are going to try and sell is the story. Okay, so we get to Gibraltar. Can you tell us what happens next, Maddy? On the 17th of December, over a month after the Mary Celeste had been found drifting in the Atlantic, an inquest into the fate of its crew begins in Gibraltar. At its head is Sir James Cochran, the Chief Justice for the territoryritory and a formidable man. Aiding him

is Frederick Solly Flood, the Attorney General of Gibraltar, a man described by one historian as arrogant, pompous and narrow-minded. Hearing the testimonies of Morehouse's crew, Flood decides a crime must have taken place. As the New York Shipping and Commercial List reports to its anxious readers back home, the inference is that there has been foul play somewhere and that alcohol is at the bottom of it. Flood's theory is that the crew of the Mary Celeste must have sampled the alcohol they were transporting, leading one or several of them to violent action against the ship's captain, never mind the fact Briggs was a well-known teetotaler, or that the alcohol aboard was industrial strength and likely to kill any who drank it in any quantity. Flood's mind is made up, and sure enough, when the results of the examination of the vessel he orders come back in, so-called evidence of a struggle is abundant.

Notches on the ship's bow, he claims, show something sharp has been brought down upon it with force, and rust on the captain's sword is, he's convinced, in fact blood. The same appears on a railing, together with a deep groove caused, he claims, by an axe. A month later, Flood's report concludes that some of the crew had got drunk, murdered Briggs and his family, cut the Mary Celeste's ropes to simulate a collision or similar, and escaped to an unknown fate in the only lifeboat. He even goes so far as to claim Morehouse and his crew, who had found her, were hiding something and possibly knew more than they were letting on. But when rudimentary analysis of the blood samples returns negative, Flood is unable to prove his theory and has, reluctantly, to release the ship to its investors. To be continued... We're talking Vikings, Normans, Kings and Popes, who were rarely the best of friends, murder, rebellions, and crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing

to Gone Medieval from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. What strikes me about that, first of all, is the human need, and we cover this in After Dark quite a lot, actually, either directly or indirectly, the human need to fill unknown space where we have to make sense of something that is potentially unknowable. And so we have this factual gap where we know a ship left New York, and we know a ship was found. But what happens in between, we don't know. And there is, even in the 19th century, there is this desperate attempt to fill the gap.

And we see that in the press as well, don't we? In some of the attention and speculation that they are bringing to trying to explain what has happened to this particular ship. Yeah, there's an absolute explosion of media interest in this, as you can imagine. And I wonder if actually a lot of that drives Flood's own motive, his ambition for finding something a bit more sinister, if he is maybe enjoying the attention that Gibraltar's getting. It's a prestigious posting there in many ways in terms of the British Empire, but I can't imagine it's a particularly exciting one. And here's his moment

when the global news is turned onto Gibraltar, onto him. It's a moment to step into the spotlight, I guess. And I think the media storm that builds up around this, I don't know if this is fair, but I think it possibly encourages him to look for a more salacious story than is really there. Because his facts are fast and loose. I mean, something on some wood on the ship that looks like it's been hacked. Well, I mean, you know, something on some wood on the ship that looks like it's been hacked. Well, I mean, that could be anything. They could be cutting the head off a fish. They could be, you know, it could be any kind of workaday activity that's going on there.

And then this claim that there's blood on a sword, which you said was most likely rust. And in fact, wasn't it reported in the newspapers that it was rust or potentially blood? It was all kind of quite confusing because they were trying to fill in these gaps or potentially blood there's it was all kind of quite confusing because they were trying to fill in these gaps yeah there's so much speculation and i think it's interesting that you say a lot of these marks could have been left by sort of normal everyday activities on a ship and i think it speaks to a kind of illiteracy that people on the land had at this period if you weren't someone who'd been at sea, if you weren't used to being aboard a ship, you don't know how to read that object when it comes into

harbour. You don't know what's happened on there based on what you're looking at now. There's just no way that you can tell. And these details, there was a scuff here, there's a cut mark there, they get picked up, as you say, in so the globe newspaper for example runs with this story it says there are no signs of the vessel having suffered from bad weather so they're going with a story that this is some kind of human element that's caused this it says a harmonium in the captain's cabin and the music books were all in their places untouched by salt water a little vial of oil was standing by a sewing machine and a reel of cotton and a thimble not yet rolled off the table so there's this sense of almost a theatrical scene and interestingly a domestic scene as well thinking about the captain's cabin his family being

there they're playing on this idea of the innocent wife and child that may have fallen prey to the murderous crew but the same journalist for The Globe picks up on things saying the sword was in its scabbard, it was rusty, but there were marks of blood having been wiped off it. He says there are marks like cut marks on the top gallant's sail and both sides of the vessel's bows. He talks about that this is all evidence of violence and he makes the point of saying at the present moment, no trace has been found of the lady or child. So very much everyone's caught up in this narrative that Briggs and his family have been murdered. You can see, again, it's that human need that you talked about of

filling the gap. It's an exciting story. It's quite gothic. It fits in almost with the tone of penny dreadfuls back in Britain that people are consuming. It's a ripping yarn from the high seas that has all these different elements. It's got a ghostly element. It's got a murder element. It's being reported as though it's fact in the papers at the time. And the thing to bear in mind, as we've discussed here before, is often there's this concept that the following that true crime has in our own time period is a very new thing. But of course, it's not at all, particularly when you're looking at Victorian England or Victorian Britain more generally. There is a real idea of gathering clues from people in the general public who are not linked to any kind of crime solving or any type of policing or control of the law, that they might be able to

unpick these clues and answer the question about what actually happened to the Mary Celeste. Absolutely. Armchair detection at its best is a huge thing in the 19th century. And we have episodes already out and coming up that deal with the sort of birth of this phenomenon in Britain in the first half of the 19th century. In terms of the Mary Celeste itself, lots of different theories are bandied about. So we have this central idea that there's been foul play of some sort, that Briggs and his family have been murdered, or that some combination of foul play has gone on, that there's been some mutineers and Briggs and his family have escaped perhaps with some other crew members. We don't know. We don't know. The lifeboat missing is a huge question mark in this case.

Have all the crew got onto the lifeboat and just simply abandoned the ship? Is there something wrong with the ship? It appears, as I say, to be in working order. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with it. Then there's the question of natural phenomena. This is another area of huge speculation. So there's debates that perhaps there's been an earthquake and the ship has been damaged in some way, or they've all panicked and decided to get off the ship. There are even theories of giant octopus attacking the ship and giant squid. It's from the sublime to the ridiculous we know from the captain's log that nine days earlier they're in good weather everything's going well so there's no storm at least at that point the final communicate that

we have with briggs that may have caused this it's a true mystery bring Bring us into port then, Maddy. Let's take this story home and see what happens once all of this settles a little bit and the legacy this has left for us for generations afterwards. I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Eleanor Yonaga. And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries. The gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research. From the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings.

Normans. Kings and popes. Who were rarely the best of friends. Murder. Rebellions. And crusades. Find out who we really were. By subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit.

Wherever you get your podcasts. Even with the ship safely stored in the harbour and available for inspection, finding the truth of exactly what had befallen the crew of the Mary Celeste had proved almost impossible for the authorities in Gibraltar. The apparent mystery of the case would soon garner even more media attention, with many contemporary newspapers choosing to run with Flood's version of events. Murder on the high seas, after all, was bound to sell. Speculation abounded. Had she been maybe over-insured? Was this an inside job? Had Morehouse and his men pirated the ship for their own ends before killing her crew and bringing her into Gibraltar? Was Briggs in on a scam, floating somewhere in a lifeboat and biding his time to claim a payout. Had he, as one historian in 1925 claimed,

suffered a fit of religious mania and killed everyone on board before taking his own life? In 2006, a televised experiment by University College London's Professor Andrea Seller concluded an explosion on board the Mary Celeste was the most likely explanation. Building a model of the hold and setting a blast, Seller was able to show that had the alcohol on board or fumes from it caught light, it would have left no scorch marks behind, but would have been terrifying enough to cause all those sailing in her to rush for the lifeboat and the relative safety of the open water. Whatever the truth of the Mary Celeste and the fates of Briggs, his wife, small daughter

and the men in his command, we might never know. Though the story remains a compelling one and has passed time and time again from the realms of reality to myth-making. After all, who can resist a ghost ship sailing alone on a winter's ocean? Not me, and not the After Dark listeners either, if the HMS terror is anything to go by. It is a fascinating case, and it's a turbulent history in many ways, because there are so many ups and downs to it. There's so many possibilities to it. What ends up happening is you cannot tell the history of the Mary Celeste because it's untellable. And

that said, I wasn't aware of the experiments that Professor Sella had carried out for University College London. That seems quite compelling to me. I don't understand the science behind it, obviously, but it seems to me... However, speaking of compelling, the historian in 1925 who said that there was a religious fit of mania and Briggs had killed everybody and then taken his own life, that seems a little far-fetched for me. Yeah, so I was reading about that. And in that case, he later redacted that theory and actually apologised to Briggs' surviving family. Because don't forget, Briggs was not only father to little Sophia Matilda, who was on board, but he was also father to Arthur, who was a little bit older.

So he was left with relatives back in the US and obviously survived and lost his entire family in this disaster. So there are presumably today descendants of Briggs out there. Oh, that's amazing. And yes, so the historian in 1925 actually apologised to the surviving family. I think for me, putting this story back into its context is the most interesting. Why did this story at this moment cause such anxiety? And I think so much of that is maybe caught up in ideas of not only the British Empire, because don't forget the Mary Celeste is not a British ship. It's found by the British, it's investigated by the British, but it's a ship coming from the US to trade in Italy.

it's investigated by the British, but it's a ship coming from the US to trade in Italy. There's something there about competing empires, about global trade transforming the world. And yet, that seems such a huge, almost incomprehensible scale. It's such a juggernaut of industry and commerce. But the Celeste story shows what happens at a human level when that goes wrong. Whatever happened aboard that ship, something did go wrong and human beings made a choice to behave in a certain way. And all we are left with is the result of that and the evidence that we can interpret as we like. And I think it must have caused so much anxiety in the Victorian world, in the 19th century world.

I think it's really interesting what you said about it being essentially an American history, because I don't think of the history of the Mary Celeste, the little we know of being American. And you're so right. Like for me, because of the involvement of the Dei Gratia, it very much feels like a British history. And of course it's not. And that's really important, actually. And even having listened to this, it's not until now with you kind of hammering that point home that I'm like, oh yeah, that's crucial that it's American. And then it's these two

superpowers, even in the 19th century, particularly by the end, it's these two superpowers meeting on the seas and navigating that way together. Yeah, there's something in that as well. I think as well, what people loved in the 19th century and what people still love today is the fact that it is a mystery. It's a puzzle. There are so many different clues and you can pick them up and discard them as you wish to make your own theories, to sort of make your own adventure in that sense. We can think about the notch marks on the bow. As you say, it could have been cutting a fish. It could have been a million things. But there are still people who read that as evidence of some kind of a struggle. The rust on Briggs' sword under his bed in the captain's cabin,

is that potentially blood? It was tested in the 19th century and they decided it wasn't. Can we trust that testing today? Is that scientifically accurate? I can't see that it would be blood that would then, why would the sword have then been sheathed and put back into his bed? It makes no sense. But you know, I think there are all these different theories that still excite us. They still engage our minds to really think about this and to come up with our own story. So I'm going to ask you very quickly, Anthony, what happened to the Mary Celeste? What is your theory? What do you think happened? I think the alcohol is key, but not in the fact that they had drank it. I think it would have been virtually impossible to survive drinking

it. No, it's industrial strength alcohol. You would be very, very ill at best. So that theory that some of the crew had maybe drank it just is implausible to me. But this idea, again, coming back to Professor Sella, this idea that maybe something caught fire and had an explosion of some sort that ripped through the entire vessel and prompted everybody to abandon ship, that seems most likely. I have a question. The only thing, again, I don't understand the science of this. I know that Professor Sella's findings say that nothing would have been scorched. I don't quite understand that, if there's essentially a fireball going

through. The answer, Anthony, is science. Ah, okay. Well, that's why I don't understand that. It's not a science podcast. i think that theory is very plausible i think they left in a hurry i think possibly the whole crew left together yeah i think there are the two hatches that have been ripped open maybe by an explosion maybe people panicked trying to get out of the hold the doors aren't fastened they they're swinging wildly, you know, with the motion of the waves when Morehouse's crew come on board to investigate. The fact the navigational tools, Briggs's navigational tools have been taken, they are missing from the cabin, suggests to me he's had enough time to grab his family. The crew have all assembled on the deck. He's grabbed some tools to think, OK, we'll get into the lifeboat and then we'll go from there and of course presumably they were lost at sea

because they never resurfaced anywhere really it's a story of human tragedy as much as human ingenuity travel mystery yeah and again again, as you've said previously, that's why it endures. No, it's fascinating. And again, it just comes back to this one idea of the Dei Gratia finding the Mary Celeste, abandoned, no crew on board. That in itself is haunting

and it's why it lingers and it's why it stayed with us. So I think on that, listeners, we shall draw a halt to today's episode. We have been seeing your emails, by the way, with all your ideas for either local cases or specific episodes that you wanted to look into. And they were so, so good.

We have long, big lists that we're working through. We are planning content based on the things that you've been sending us. Keep writing into us. Keep telling us what you want to hear. You can follow us on social media where Anthony and I every week share images associated with the episodes that are coming out. So you can see some of the artworks and the photographs that we describe. You can write to us and tell us your theories on the Mary Celeste. We want to hear

them. If you liked this episode, then please leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts, because it helps other people discover the podcast too. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you again next time. you