Dan Snow's History Hit - The Mary Rose and Her Ethnically Diverse Crew

Episode Date: June 10, 2021

The Mary Rose, a Tudor warship in Henry VIII's navy, sank in the Solent on 19 July 1545 with the loss of most of her 415 strong crew. Recent developments in marine archaeology have enabled researchers to bring to light fascinating new evidence about the diversity of the crew. Dr Alex Hildred, the head of research at the Mary Rose Trust, is back on the podcast to discuss the cutting edge technology used, and the implications of this new discovery.

Hello everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History. It gives me great pleasure, great pleasure to be talking today to a national treasure, Alex Hildred, about the Mary Rose, one of the great ships of Henry VIII's navy. You know that factoid that the Mary Rose sunk in its maiden voyage? Not true, folks, not true. She served for 33 years before unfortunately on the 19th of July 1545, capsizing in the Solent, fighting the French off the Isle of Wight. She served all those years, and I always assume that people get her mixed up with the Vasa, that other wonderful early modern warship that capsized. Vasa did literally sink metres away from the dock when she was launched. Completely ridiculous. Poor shipbuilding, poor seamanship, all the rest of it.

Anyway, Mary Rose was in the middle of battle. Her gun ports were swamped with water and she went down. Recently, it made headlines around the world. DNA studies came out talking about the composition of the bodies that Ray recovered from Mary Rose with the fascinating new insights that some of these people may have been born far from British shores. Imagine that. It gives me enormous pleasure to welcome Alex back on the podcast. She's been on before. I've visited the Mary Rose. She is the head of research and curator of ordnance and human remains at the Mary Rose Trust.

She, as you'll hear, dived on the wreck years ago. She's been involved with Mary Rose ever since. She has been a leading light in that project that not only pushed the boundaries of what was possible in marine archaeology, but since Mary Rose has been raised, has set new standards for conservation and research. She's a world-beater, and it's great to have her on the podcast. We'll be talking about the new science, but we'll also be talking about Mary Rose itself,

what it was like excavating her, and why she sank, and what happened to most of the 415 man crew who were killed that day in 1545. It's always a good day when I get to talk about Mary Rose. If you like the Solent, and let's be honest, who doesn't? It's where it all happens. Titanic set out on its maiden voyage from the Solent. D-Day saw the bases of the Solent, the anchorages being used to send that vast armada across to Normandy, just 70, 80 miles away. And speaking of which, that's our newest chart-topping programme. It's The Secrets of the Solent, our D-Day special in which we work with historian

Stephen Fisher, you may have heard him on this podcast, to uncover new wrecks, new archaeology associated with D-Day. It's so exciting. I'm really proud of that documentary. It's a documentary that could never have been made in my old career working at the BBC and elsewhere. People just wouldn't have seen the point, but you have all seen the point. That's why you're subscribing to History at Dot TV.

And because of you, because of your subscriptions, we've been able to make The Secrets of D-Day. We've been able to uncover new research and new shipwrecks, veterans of the D-Day landings. Thank you as always for subscribing. If you haven't yet subscribed please go to historyhit.tv and it would be great to have you on board. Let's hope the journey goes a little more D-Day and a little less Mary Rose Titanic. But in the meantime everyone, here's Alexandra Hildred. Enjoy. Titanic. But in the meantime, everyone, here's Alexandra Hildred. Enjoy.

Alex, how are you? Fine, thank you. How about you? Great to have you on the podcast. I'm very good, thank you. It's been a long time no seeing. Looking forward to coming back into Mary Rose soon. Yes, we're open and our new display, Many Faces of Tudor England, is up and running. So we're looking forward to lots and lots of people coming to see us, including you, of course. Well, thank you. Now, this information you released about the multi-ethnic crew has really seemed to strike a chord. Tell me, what's the technology behind it? When you were excavating Mary Rose all those decades ago, did you ever think you'd be able to do this science on them? No, but we always hoped. So we kept the bone assemblage. We tried

with all new techniques. So when DNA first became available, the idea that historic DNA could be viable and not contaminated, we actually did some very, very early trials with Oxford University at the very beginning of that. So we've always been conscious of what we've got and how precious it is, and what we might be able to do with it in the future. But we never really thought we would get so far so quickly. I think it's more recently, there've been huge advances, both in genetics and in the multi isotope analysis, which is what we're talking about here. Let's do the easy stuff first, the bit that you must be so bored of talking about. But just quickly, when Mary Rose sank, how many people were on board? And how many people did it manage to get off?

Well, there's a crew list not named people but the numbers of 500 are actually listed divided into mariners soldiers and gunners and then you've got the officers and their retinues they bring on board so 500 and we've got remains of 179 individuals of them and that's the total number of skulls that we've got out of that we've been able to sort of build the bodies of about 92 and matched 24 skulls to those. So one of the things, because obviously, if you're doing it anatomically, in order to put a body together, the head on it, you've got to have the whole vertebrae to do it physically. So we've always been looking for a chemical, biochemical or genetic

or an easier means to actually have this three dimensional huge puzzle and try and put faces to bodies, basically. Why do you think so many people did perish on Mary Rose? Because she was, I mean, basically, she really only turned over. It's not as though it's a Titanic thing. She was in 12 meters of water, and she's 12 meters wide. Water entered in through the gun ports very quickly, and she rolled onto one side. You've got two gun decks, both of which are enclosed, and then castles with the front and the back, which are also two decks enclosed. And the only open area is in the middle of the ship in the upper deck, but that's had netting across it to stop boarders coming alongside

and jumping onto the only open space other than the very top of the castles, which are a bit high to jump on. So really, the only people who would have been able to have got off easily would have been anybody who was at the very top deck of the castles by both in the front and the back. And those would not be that many because you've actually got very little area there. So maybe 30 people at each station. The others would have had to cut their way through this very, very fine triangular netting, which if you put your thumbs together and your forefingers and you make a diamond shape, that's the size of the netting. and it's very thick. It's about as thick as your fingers. Why were the human remains preserved on Mary Rose? Well, many things were preserved. Iron, unfortunately, doesn't survive very well

if it's very, very thin, but it's the very, very fine sediments, which basically they're oxygen reduced, so they're almost anaerobic environment. So that really does make most things, especially, which is important for us, especially the organic materials, which you rarely get on land sites. So it's a really good balance for battlefields, for example. Interesting. What sort of human remains have been recovered from battlefields from this period, 500 years ago? Well, you're looking at things like Towton, for example, which was basically a slaughter.

But those, again, were removed from the battlefield and put into various pits and stuff. So not that many, certainly in England. You've got ones in Visby in the Netherlands and things like that. But we're still looking for various battlefields in England. We sure are. So in terms of quality of human remains, is Mary Rose some of the best around for that period? Every archaeological scientist who knows anything about human remains who's looked at the Mary Rose has been absolutely astonished about the condition of them. Absolutely, stonkingly astonished.

And was that clear when you were underwater and starting to find these extraordinary remains? Yes, it was, because it's not just the human remains. Sometimes you had remains of some of the clothing associated with them and obviously their personal possessions if they were, you know, wearing things with pockets and whatever, or belts with tool belts or various other things. So yes, it was obvious that they were in good condition. Alex, you and I have talked so much about this in the past, but what did you particularly enjoy or find it super rewarding to uncover when you were down there on the bed of the Solent? I think some of the most rewarding objects were the personal objects because you actually or find it super rewarding to uncover when you were down there on the bed of a solent?

I think some of the most rewarding objects were the personal objects, because you actually could almost understand the person who perhaps last held them. And you wondered, you'd look at something, something as simple as a wooden spoon, a tiny wooden spoon, and you wonder who held it, and did they make it? And where did they get it? And what life did that object have? And I think those personal possessions were fantastic. But also things like some of the structure. I mean, we came across a partition wall with sliding door that was slightly open. And it had got a wedge actually in the runner holding it open. I mean, you think what is going to be in that cabin?

It transpired that actually it was a cabin belonging to the carpenter. And in the door was our pet dog, Hatch, who has become famous. And all sorts of chests had come crashing from the other side of the ship and got lodged in this tiny little bit of this open door. So it was a really tiny area with so much potential. And then when we dismantled the structure, which you had to do to get into it, you found that there were two bench bunks and on them were all the tools belonging to the carpenter. And underneath them were baskets full of rough wood offcuts or half-finished objects. So it was just magical. It was like going into your great-great-grandfather's tool shed, if you like. And some of the objects that also were exciting were the chests, because when we decided to bring them up full rather than decant them underwater, which obviously took a long time, we realized that they were strong enough to withstand being brought up through the surface of the water by putting them into a modern chest and then lifting them.

And so we could do a controlled excavation on land. And this is where many of the longbow chests were brought up. And some of those were nailed shut. chests were brought up and some of those were nailed shut so there were elm chests that were nailed shut at the Tower of London when they were last packed and we picked them up from the armory within the lower deck of the ship and we're bringing them up and you opened them and they were 50 longbows this beautiful shiny wooden U object nearly white on one side and hazel color on the other these perfect weapons of war that had last been packed to go on the Mary Rose 430 years before, or over 430 years before.

And I know that those are some of your favourite objects because I've seen you actually demonstrate your skills at archery using reproductions of the Mary Rose longbows. So those were absolutely wonderful. But almost everything had its joys, and they're all special. Remind me, how many dives did you do? It almost seems like we did thousands of dives. But actually, when you count them up, they're probably only about 500. I mean, we were on board for 79 to 1982, and 82 is quite a short

season for the archaeologists. And we stayed on board two days out of three and dived probably six times maximum in those two days and then almost one week a month we couldn't dive because of the tides so if you add it all up it's probably about five or six hundred but you know we were living the project so it was our whole reason for being so it seems like so much more you know like I'd say it seems like thousands but it's probably only about 500 dives. You're listening to Dan Snow's History here. We've got Alexander Hildred talking about the Mary Rose and her crew. More after this.

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There are new episodes every week. Did you know that you were involved in something just epic? Or has the rollout of the museum, the raising of the ship, the extraordinary reception you've had, has that all come as a sort of surprise? Or did you think from the beginning this is going to be as big as it eventually did become? I'm not sure if I would describe what I felt when we were excavating the Mary Roses being epic. We certainly knew it was something which was amazing and would change people's lives in the same way that it changed or a similar way that it changed our lives because we were learning so much about the past and about that particular ship.

And I think we always thought, certainly the full-time team, that we would raise a ship. It was without question, no matter what hardships they were, what difficulties. For me, I never thought we wouldn't. And I always thought we'd build a museum. What I think has been astonishing is the way this new museum has transpired, where you've got the ship on one side, like a doll's house view with the two gun decks and the storage deck and then castles at the bow or castles at the stern, some of the bows missing. And then exactly opposite, you've got these 30 meter long galleries, which have the objects placed exactly opposite where they were found in the ship. So you can walk along the gallery and look into the ship in one side,

and then look at some of the objects that we recovered from that space, exactly opposite. And I think that is absolutely magical, because that's as close to making it come alive as you can. So it's almost like swimming down the main deck during part of the excavation, except for you can see more. And I think when some of the divers came back and saw the new museum, people who hadn't been instrumental in building it, and they did say, my word, it is just like revisiting the site again. And I think that's magical. And I think now that we've got projections where we project into the spaces so for example I mentioned the carpenter's cabin we have the carpenter sawing

and his dog in the cabin projected onto the timbers of the hull and that is as much as making it alive as you possibly can so I think that's been astonishing it's it's the way that it's come to fruition and how grand I think it is, and how well it represents the site and the ship. So let's talk more about that cutting edge engineering and science. The ethnicity of these crews, the things we've been able to learn about these individuals, what is that? What can you tell me about the men that served aboard Mary Rose? I don't think we expected to have with such a small number of crew that we actually looked at regarding this isotope analysis, that we would find such diversity within eight individuals. So to find that three of them, possibly four, were found or came from places which

were far warmer than England, and one of them genetically, his father came from North Africa, he was born in England. That was astonishing. Now, perhaps we shouldn't be astonished because there are actually quite a few records that suggest that Britain at the time was fairly multicultural in places like London, in places even like Southampton. And when we hear about the attempts to recover the Mary Rose,

the salvage team was headed by an Italian and they were Africans within the salvage team that raised some of the guns from the Mary Rose, the salvage team was headed by an Italian and they were Africans within that, the salvage team that raised some of the guns from the Mary Rose and the team that in fact tried to raise it within weeks of it having sunk were Italians who led the work. And also Southampton was a great port. And so with all of these port cities like Bristol, Southampton, London, you do have large enclaves of foreign people. And we know from things like wills, marriages, baptisms, etc, that there were foreigners living in and around these major cities. So we shouldn't be astonished. But I think it is just the number, you know, we thought that

perhaps the carpenter because he had some Spanish coins in one of his chests, and there were Spanish ads on board. And we thought, well, perhaps he was Spanish, and it transpired that he came from the carpenter because he had some Spanish coins in one of his chests and there were Spanish adzes on board and we thought well perhaps he was Spanish and it transpired that he came from somewhere that was much warmer and could well be somewhere in Spain and similarly somebody that we thought could be Italian because he had a tiny little casket panel that's only made in northern Italy although it was over 100 years old when it was left in his chest. And he certainly also came from somewhere foreign. But to actually find the definite evidence that genetically you've got somebody from North Africa, whose father was from North Africa on board, a second generation, I think is quite unexpected.

And also with the complete wild card, who was a man who was wearing an arm guard, an archer's wrist guard of leather with the arms of Catherine of Aragon and Henry VIII intertwined. And isotopically, his teeth tell us it's actually what's preserved within the teeth from the groundwater, from the food that he ate, the type of food that he ate as a child. And that's encapsulated in the teeth. And that says he came again from somewhere which must be either further east and south than England or North Africa again or maybe even sort of the Atlas Mountains in Africa and this is a sort of work that will only be refined and will get more

more specific so what you can do now is you can look at how far away they're from the coast what sort of food they were brought up on the groundwater that got absorbed through their teeth as youngsters and you sort of get the best fit of all of those and once you start mixing that with genetics and things you can get a far more detailed picture so i think we're only going to find more multicultural crew and it's just the fact that within eight you find four that are foreign is actually quite telling. Mary Rose and the work that you do keeps making headlines. Will it ever stop or have you got more of these up your sleeve? The real wealth of Mary Rose is the ship as a container, the story of the ship itself. You know, what can we learn from detailed study of the timbers, repairs and various other things?

But it's the wealth of objects. So with 19,000 objects, every one of those can tell a story. You know, where is the wood from? How was it made? Who made it? Where had it traded from? Who owned it? What was the life of that object?

So there is such a huge wealth of objects and that every single one of those can supply new information. I think with the human remains, you know, that's been something that because we're all people, you know, we're specifically interested in that. And there are things like, you know, facial reconstruction, we can now take, say, photogrammetry, a series of pictures of the individual skulls, and then give them to, say, universities who do facial reconstructions using computers. And you could then look at the faces of 179 individuals from the mid-Tudor period. And, you know, that's really like making the crew come alive.

So they're just such huge opportunities. And I think it's that mix of science and art and history and the fact that it's underwater. You know, it's an unbelievably magical story. And I think it will continue to give and to supply people with information and to tell new stories. Well Alex you've always inspired me your enthusiasm for Mary Rose is undimmed despite years of working with the wreck and with all the objects so thank you very much for everything you do we're all looking back to get into the museum tell us how people find the museum find the website find this research. So we've been open again for a few weeks now.

We still have the Many Faces of Tutoringland exhibition going. And in July, for the anniversary of the sinking of July on the 19th, we will officially open a new display on the sinking. So this is going to be a sinking experience, a slightly immersive experience. I promise you won't get wet, but I do hope, Dan, that you'll be one of the first people who comes and joins us in our new sinking experience, which is basically an addition to the front of the museum. It's changing the front view galleries. So you can find us and information about booking tickets, etc. at www.merryrose.org

and come and see us in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard. I will save the date. I love a voluntary sinking experience. Alex, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I feel the hand of history upon our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs... Hope you enjoyed the podcast.

Just before you go, bit of a favour to ask. I totally understand if you don't want to become a, bit of a favour to ask. I totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money, makes sense. But if you could just do me a favour, it's for free.

Go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. If you give it a five-star rating and give it an absolutely glowing review, purge yourself, give it a glowing review, I'd really appreciate that. It's tough weather, the law of the jungle out there

and I need all the fire support I can get. So that will boost it up the charts. It's so tiresome, but if you could do it, I'd be very, very grateful. Thank you.