Dan Snow's History Hit - The Mongol Invasion of Europe

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

In the 13th century, a force unlike any Europe had ever seen came thundering across the steppe. The Mongols had already carved out the largest land empire in history - but after conquering vast swathes of Asia, they turned their gaze west. Today, we explore why the Mongols began pushing into Europe and how successful their invasions really were.For this, we’re joined by Marie Favereau, a historian specialising in the Mongol Empire and Islamic history, and author of ‘The Horde: How the Mongols Changed the World’.Produced by James Hickmann and edited by Dougal Patmore.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.We'd love to hear your feedback - you can take part in our podcast survey here: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on.You can also email the podcast directly at [e-mail]. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello folks, Dan Snow here. I am throwing a party to celebrate 10 years of Dan Snow's history hit. I'd love for you to be there. Join me for a very special live recording of the podcast in London, in England on the 12th of September to celebrate the 10 years. You can find out more about it and get tickets with the link in the show notes. Look forward to seeing you there. This episode is brought to you by Speck Savers. Just think about everything your eye do everyday folks. You're working on screens. You're driving in bright sunlight, I wish. You might be squinting at road signs at night. It's a lot. You're trying to decipher medieval handwriting. Not easy. No wonder your eyes can feel strained and tired sometimes. And that's why it's important to give your eyes the same care and attention you give the rest of your health. At spec savers, every eye includes something really clever called an OCT scan. I'd one of these the other day. It's basically a 3D scan of your eye that lets independent optometrists spot potential eye and health issues early. sometimes, even before you notice anything yourself. And here's the best part.

At Spec Savers, they think this technology is so important. It comes with every standard eye exam. So if it's been a while since your last checkup, book an I-exam with an OCT scan from $99. That's Spexsavers.ca. I-exams are provided by independent optometrists. Prices may vary by location. Visit Spexsavers.cair to learn more.

Hi, everybody. Welcome to Dan Snow's history hit. In the 13th century, a force unlike any other that Europe had ever seen came thundering from out of the step. The Mongols. They'd already carved out the largest land empire in history. They'd already reached the Sea of Japan. Now they were heading west. Into the plains of Hungary and Poland, the Mongol armies swept with terrifying speed and ruthless efficiency. They didn't just defeat some of the finest troops in Eastern Europe. They utterly humiliated them. They left kings and entire kingdoms reeling in their wake. In this episode, we're going to explore why the Mongols began pushing into Europe. how successful their invasions really were and what were the lasting repercussions they had for the continent.

I'm very pleased they were joined again by Marie Favreau. She specialised in the history of the Mongol Empire and Islamic history. She's the author of the very brilliant The Horde, How the Mongols Change the World. She talked to us from her base in Kyrgyzstan, where she researches all things Mongol. She isn't to sit in the archives. She's out there on the step doing River.

crossings, long journeys on horseback, and using birds of prey. She's a legend. And here she is, telling us all about the Mongol invasion of Europe. Enjoy. T-minus 10. The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima. God save the king. No black white unity till there is first than black unity. Never to go to war with one another again. And lift off and the shuttle has cleared the power. Mary, so good to have you back on the podcast. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much for inviting me again. I'm so excited. Well, I'm very excited because this is one of the great subjects of history and you are there on the ground, researching it as we speak. Tell me about, well, the step world, the step world that you know, the step world that Genghis would have known, the Mongols.

Perhaps before the great Khan unified everything, what characterized lives of people on the step? Well, I mean, we have some information about 12th century nomads living in the steps. So it's basically like Mongolia now and part of Central Asia, part of Kazakhstan, and also Kyrgyzstan, we're sitting right now. And actually, in 12th century, life was not so bad. We know that people were living with herding and they had enough water. the weather was not that cold or that hot, and it was better than what it is today, we think. So people were strong.

We should really think about nomads at that time as elite people, like people who were doing well, very well. Beyond that, of course, we need to think about people living with their horses. Horses were very important. I mean, they are still today, but at that time, men and horses would live together. they can even be buried together. So it's the connection between nature, animals, men and women, families was like just really special.

So that's how I can define like 12th century nomadic step world. That's so interesting, Marie. So we think of nomadic people now on the fringes of something being denied access to the glories of settled urban life. Are you saying they would have seen themselves as free, rich, they would have regarded themselves as lucky that they were able to traverse across the step and look down on city dwellers, settled agricultural communities. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you have to think that those people see themselves and they are the right to do it as the center of the world. They build up

empires since the Schittian period, since the Huns period. So at least 12, 3 century before common era, we have a lot of information on those peoples, how they were organized. So they have the memories of the nomadic empires of the past. So for themselves, like real rich, interesting life is nomadic life. Power is in the end of nomads.

That is very important because they see themselves at the center and then we're going to talk about that. If they go out of the step it's for a lot of reasons, but certainly not because they need to plunder cities or something. They are rich.

They have gold. They have sealed. they have copper, they have minerals, they have a lot of stuff. So step is rich also in terms of all those materials. So it's a different world from the one we imagine usually. Marie, you're selling me this life. I want to be a nomad. I don't know what I'm doing here in my stupid house. Okay, so we think of them as warriors. Is it the nature of being nomadic, of being in the saddle, of being able to live close to nature on the ground, close to food sources? Were they a mighty potential military force, if only they could be sort of unified and worked together in big enough numbers? Well, that's a very good point. Yeah, you can see them as warriors. I mean, they were

warriors, because they have what warriors need at that time. They have horses, but also camels, so they can go fast. They have metallurgy, so they can build up weapons. They have the strongest weapons ever. They have iron swords. They also are extended archmen, and they can just practice on their horses. So they are excellent warriors, but their life is not dedicated to war. That's the important point, because they are also very good at trade, a lot of other things. So it's also family life. So yeah, sure, if you look at Eurasia in 12th century, they're probably among the best warriors, but it doesn't mean that they live for war. The legend is that they were disunited, so that military potential was potential, until they were united, unified, brought together in large numbers by this figure, Genghis Khan.

We won't go too much into his early life and his extraordinary legend. We've done that before on this podcast. But tell me, it is true that he emerges and is able to unite these groups as never before, or is their precedent for this? Well, that's a very important point. Actually, it's true that they were their fragmentation among those groups. So we can call them tribes or peoples. They like to call themselves peoples. But then the truth is they have been united before, but under other names. You've heard of the Turks.

It's the name we all know, right? The Turks are in Turkey today, but back then they were in Mongolia. So they were the Hun, the Kunnu, before the Kitchens also. So there were a lot of empires before the Mongols. The thing is, Jinghis Khan built up something new, something bigger that we're going to talk about. And he was able to actually sort of use this previous kind of legacy of empire, nomadic empires, to make it his own and to use the name Mongols as like a label for all those nomads. who had also their own names, right? So, yes, he's a unifier.

He will build up some unifying state at the end of the 12th century. But this happened before. It's just under Jingkishad, it's going to be bigger than ever. And does he do that by, has he got a persuasive, charismatic message? Is he just defeating other tribes,

making them kneel to him? Is it marriage? What's the process? Good point. So, of course, he's a good warrior. Of course, he will act as a good, like, military leader, but it's not enough. You have to convince people. So he's also, even in his young age, very clever at building alliances, either with political friends, but also it will build

up a very strong couple with his wife birthday, which he married very young, and she's going to help him to build up alliance, and they will really together create a network of secured alliance with other nomadic leaders. Genghisor, we also in Mongolian calling Jingis, Jingis Khan, was very clever at negotiating, you know. When you know you're not strong enough on the battlefield, you have to negotiate. And he's very good at that.

So he's a very good diplomat. He's good at trade as well. So we will use everything to show he's the best. He's really an able leader for all the nomads of the great step. And is it an unwilling confederation? Are these disparate groups just like, fine, we've been bought off, or he's outmaneuvered us diplomatically, or he's conquered us? Or does he take decisive action to forge a new kind of confederation on the step? Does he try and erode tribal loyalties to build a successful loyalty to something different? Meritocracy, integration of different tribal

units. Does he really try and forge something different? Yeah, that's important. We know that that he used to this legacy I mentioned, but he's going to build up something new. So first of all, his own name. So actually, Genghis Khan or Genghis Khan is a title. It means probably something like universal Han. Someone was like an emperor like Caesar. But this title is unknown, unseen before. He invented it.

Or someone suggested it to him and he picks it up. So he's using administration, like ideas of the past, but he's going to be able to do something new. He's also very clever at integrating people because you have to think that at this period of time in the Middle Ages anyway, people are more important than lands. If you have territories, but you have nobody just to pay tribute, to pay taxes or to grow stuff and do agriculture, it means nothing. So you really need to have more people. So he's going to be very good at integrating new peoples into the rank of the army, into the administration, and he's very open with that. So you don't need to speak Mongolian to give an example.

You don't need to be from the biggest lineage. If you are able, if you're clever, if you offer your service and you're loyal, then you can get into this first Mongol states. And that says it produced something new. new people. He's also, I think, very clever at understanding the world around him at the time when you don't have Google Maps and Media's information, right? How do you get information about the world around you? So he has fantastic spies and messengers that he can send everywhere and he knows who is the powerful neighbors he has to fight with. Who is the interesting

neighbors he might trade with and so on? So that's also part of his, I say. think state building process. So he's a military genius like someone like Napoleon Bonaparte, but his legacy seems to endure because his empire holds together after he dies. So he's, this state building really does mean that his regime, his what he's created will last for generations. Yeah, you might. I mean, I think he has maybe some genius like Napoleon, but he has, I think, different views of the future. I mean, Mongols really consider past, present and future as all connected, it's part of their spirituality or religion, like they have to step religion, where what you do is also for future generation. And I think in that sense,

he was really, really a clever leader, and he thought about the future. And when he had four sons with his first wife, birthday, I mentioned, and he planned for his four sons, territories, peoples, like states. He was really thinking about the future. This is, Why, partially, its work remain, you know? Also, Mongols, as nomads, as previous nomadic empires, are very, they adapt themselves to the world. So they are not rigid. It's not a rigid society. So they know that, okay, maybe today you're in power, but what about tomorrow?

So you always have to be able to be flexible, to understand the world around you, to, if you grow, if you're like, you have more people, you have to extend. but it means you have to change your institutions. So it's a very lively state that Genghis creates and that his successors are going to support for generations. It's funny you say that. He sounds very pragmatic. He's happy to adapt. Is that something to do with that nomadic way of life? You know, that when the pasture runs out, you go somewhere else. If the weather's block in the past, you go somewhere else. Who cares? Don't worry about it. Whereas us settled people are busy trying to stop our walls falling down and our house subsiding and keep our hatch of soil fertile? I so agree with you. That's absolutely true. It's really come from this

nomadic way of life. So you have to adapt. What's going to be the weather tomorrow? You know, what about if it's going to get cold or the wind? You have to move according to that. And it's not in your hands. So you have to adapt to external conditions, like weather conditions. But also, you keep some identities. So that's what I think is fascinating. It's like they remain themselves. There's something you have to keep as your own. identity, although you move, although you change, you remain Mongols, right? You keep your ancestors, you keep your house, you know, they live. It's a nomad live in a tent that we call York or Gere in Mongolian. It's a round tent for usually six to eight people. It's your place.

It's your house. It's a mobile home. You keep it with you and you move with it. And I think it's a real good symbol of this nomadic life. You have something that is you and your family. You move with it, so it's still you have your identity, but you move to other territories, you adapt to new weather conditions or new political conditions. So that's this combination between being yourself and adapting that also helps this incredible civilization to go on for centuries. Let's run through some of Genghis's extraordinary conquests. First of all, you charge into northern China. Yeah. Wow. That's. Two things. It's not that necessarily he, Jingy's wanted to attack China, I mean, northern China.

Actually, China was at that time separated into, let's say, three big areas, northern China, southern China. It's not, they were allied with Jingy's song. And the central, western China, the Tangut, Jingis had some fight with them and integrated them first into his own empire. Then he attacked Northern China. Northern China at that time was led by people that we can say are not with Chinese. They are kind of menschu peoples. They had some sort of nomadic backgrounds. So for someone like Jingis and the Mongols, they are like people who come from the north.

And for them, these people either you submit them or it, Otherwise, you negotiate, if they refused, and what happened, they didn't, they just refuse to negotiate, but you have to fight. So it's the way they see the relations with Northern China at that time. So it took them time, it was hard because in Northern China, Beijing, and you know, there's a lot of constructions like the wall, although it's a bit different from the wall, the way you see today, but they were a lot of settlements, big cities. And for Mongols, it was new to attack big cities. So they really had to sort of change their military forces and way of envisioning war. And it took them at least 10 years to just get really into Northern China. And then it will take them almost 10 more years to really submit it that integrated Northern China into their empire.

As you say, that pragmatism comes for again because they turn themselves into brilliant practitioners of positional warfare, of siege warfare. they absorb new technologies, don't they? And welcome specialists or force the specialist to work for them. The siege of Zhongdu, the siege of Beijing that you mentioned that city, is one of the most appalling and terrifying stories in medieval history. Absolutely, yes, yes, yes. And you know what? They attacked for the Tangut, which I mentioned, you know,

so it's central China, central western China. In Tangut's kingdom, they had engineers who helped actually the Mongols to besieged Beijing. to like being able to do this siege warfare that they didn't master it originally. So they integrate into their armies and all those engineers from the first subject they have. They integrate them. But it's true that it's a bloodshed in many ways. But the idea is not to kill everybody and to destroy everything. It's to really build up an empire and to get people to accept that the new power is a Mongol power.

Yes, because there's a myth, isn't there? The Mongols, where there's a nihilistic force that just killed everything all the time. And that's a sort of orientalist view, is it, nowadays? I mean, Romans used spectacular violence when it suits them that English did in Ireland. You know, the Mongols presumably used violence to demonstrate the pointlessness of resisting them, but wanted rich cities to keep on providing tribute. They didn't want to destroy everything. Yeah, exactly. And that's why historians like me work a lot with my colleagues working on Roman. empire, for instance, and we really try to understand what's behind the conquest, you know, what they want, and it's clear that they don't want to destroy. They want more taxpayers. They want more tribute. They want people to be able very early on to become their subjects. And once people become their subject, but they have to be protected because they become subjects, right? And they are not like enemies. So that's a very different vision than the one we used to have in the early 20th century or 19th centuries. And that's why historians now are producing very new narratives about

Mongol Empire. You listen to Dan Snow's history. We're talking about the Mongol invasion of Europe more coming up. This episode is brought to you by Speck Savers. Just think about everything your eyes do everyday folks. You're reading. You're working on screens. You're driving in bright sunlight, I wish. You might be squinting at road signs at night. It's a lot. You're trying to decipher medieval handwriting. Not easy. No wonder your eyes can feel strained and tired sometimes. And that's why it's important to give your eyes the same

care and attention you give the rest of your health. At spec savers, every eye exam includes something really clever called an OCT scan. I'd one of these the other day. It's basically a 3D scan of your eye that lets independent optometrists spot potential eye and health issues early. Sometimes, even before you notice anything yourself. And here's the best part. At spec savers, they think this technology is so important, it comes with every standard eye exam. So if it's been a while since your last checkup, book an eye exam with an OCT scan from $99. That's specksavers.ca.ca.a. I exams are provided by independent optometrists.

Prices may vary by location. Visit specksavers.cair to learn more. The best spouse for a Habsburg is another Habsburg. That was the motto and the master plan of the family, that through strategic marriages and in breeding didn't just gain power, they became Europe. I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb, and in a new series on Not Just the Tudors, I'm coming face to face with the emperors, kings and queens who shaped the continent, not to mention their own jaw lines.

Power, scandal and naked ambition. Delve into the dynasty that ruled half the known world on Not Just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. There was then the big extraordinary attack to the West. Now, the name of this empire I have never successfully pronounced. So I'm leaving it to you, the expert, talk about the empire that Genghis Khan topples next. Yeah. So in the West, you have two empires.

One is called Karahitai, okay? It's a bit smaller than the Chinese one. but it's like where I live now in Kyrgyzstan, it covered really the center of Asia, where you have cities like Bukhara and Samarkhan, so rich Muslim cities. Here, I mean, Jenghis did a very good job because he negotiated with the cities. The cities were mostly Muslims. The power, Karakitai power, was Buddhist. Jenghis said, in my empire, you know, there's some sort of religious toleration,

as long as you pay taxes and you're loyal to the power, you can practice your religion. And that was really well accepted, really well understood by the people. So many cities open their doors. So they get into Central Asia. Then after you have this big empire, I think you mentioned, I mean, that's what you have in mind. The one we call Jhore, Zem Shah. But that's the idea. Shah is the name we know because it's like the title of the king in Iran, the Shah of Iran.

It means king. Now, the Mongols entire, so it's around 1218, 1220s, they really get into Iran, actually. And then there, you have the biggest Muslim power at that time. We all heard of Abbasid in Baghdad, the Caliph, right? But they are not so powerful. They represent a lot. The Abbasid dynasty is something that comes from the 8th centuries. It's very powerful in political terms, but militarily speaking, it's very weak.

And the strongest Muslim power, the power in Iran at that time. And the Mongol attacked them because I can tell you it's for one single simple reason. The Shah in Iran refused to trade with the Mongols. He said, no trade. I kept the road. I don't want your caravan. I don't want your gold. I don't want your merchants, and they killed even the Mongol merchants.

And that's how the war started with the shock in around 12, 18. And it was a very tough war, a very bloody war, as we heard. But the Mongols at that time were good at attacking cities. They had the experience of China. They really well prepared their campaign, and they get into Iran up to Baghdad, actually, up to the Middle East, on two years. So that's just really impressive in military terms. It really is one of the most impressive campaigns in history, isn't it? And you get the impression by the stage that the Mongols are so good at this. They move incredibly fast. Just explain to us

how they move so fast. They move faster, don't they, than German armored spearheads during the Second World War. How do they manage that speed? They prepare a lot. That's the thing. It's not as they just really think about their plan. They have also scoot troops they sense ahead. So they need to know the terrain before. They need to know where they go.

Mongols are very, also are special because you know what? They fight. So two things are special with the Mongols. First, they fight during winter time. Winter times is not a usual time for war. Everywhere in the world at that moment. In Middle Ages, you fight during spring

of summer. Not winter. So this is something that people are not expecting at that time. Like people are riding suddenly during winter. So they are good at that. Also, Mongols are very good because they don't use mercenaries. They have their own troops. But they also move with their families. I said they are nomads, you remember.

And they use their tents, the Uyorks, the round tents, right, with the family and the herds and the animals. So they are self-sufficient. So the Mongol army is part of the Mongol people themselves. The families go to the battlefield, not up to the battlefield because women and kids usually stay away of the battlefield, but they are not far away. So it means that the warriors, they have food, they have also comfort, they have their home, not so far. This is super special.

This is something you cannot find with any other armies in the world at that time, the whole families. And also, because they are nomads and I also said they have animals, they have herds, they have horses, camels, but they also have goats, sheep. They have to respect the animal life. So it means they don't fight all the time. And they are very good at balancing moments of fighting and moments of calm, rest, relaxing, political discussions, diplomacy and so on. So it's a very specific way of leading world war. And finally, these Mongol people, they are not so numerous. So I'm happy you don't ask me how many they are at that time because it's very hard to answer.

But several thousands, I mean, maybe up to at that time in Central Asia and Iran, the Mongols were, let's say, 100,000. But we're not sure, right? But few, very few people, but very connected, very loyal to their part. power. There's a lot of solidarity among them. And in front of them, there are people who are fragmented. Muslims are fragmented. Christians, we're going to talk about them, are very fragmented. They use mercenaries. Mercenaries, you don't pay them, they go away. Mongos are different. You know, they work differently. So I think that's also why they advance so well and so quickly. And this is a great advantage for them. And they go even further. In 1223, you see not Genghis himself,

but two of his best generals. They're pushing into what we'd now sort of call, well, the Caucasus, would you say, and meeting the Rus, who would be fair-skinned European people. So they're reaching Europe at this stage. Yeah, and that's something that probably was not planned or not expected. So they won Central Asia and Iran. They arrived in what is Iraq today, and they are in thousands Caucasus, Azerbaijan, basically.

But then the discussion goes on. They have nothing against the Rusch, we call them the Rus' at that time, you know, because it's like Russian principalities. It's very fragmentary states. So they have nothing against them. The problem is the Russian or Rus' princes help their enemies, other nomads. We call them Kipchak. We know them under these names in the sources. These Kipchak guys are the inmates of the Mongols or the nomads, right? And they are close to the Russians. They are their allies. Mongols wrote to the Russian Rusch princes and they say, look, you're protecting our enemies. Just go away and it's okay with us. But if you protect them, then it's war. Then you become our enemies as well. Of course, the Rusz decided to, not all of them and most of them decided to fight the Mongols. And that's when happened the first big battle between Mongol armies and Rus slash nomadic Western nomads

in 1223, in Calca, we call it the Calca River. So it's like in Ukraine now, actually. And they met there, and the Mongol just destroyed them, like completely. They were really very efficient, very dedicated to their goal, and they showed their forces. Jingis was not there, so that time it remained in Central Asia. And as you said, it's the biggest than most seasoned generals attacked. So we called them Jibé and Subedeh, and to these two guys, we know them well in the sources, and they just destroyed the Russians' armies and more of that, actually.

They figured out there's a lot to gain in those territories, which a Mongol didn't expect or didn't, we're not super interested in the beginning. When they came back to Jingy's, they say, we have to go back there because they are rich lands, it's interesting, and we have to finish the work. This battle, we fought, okay, we are the winner one time, but we need to integrate them into our empire. So that's a big enough longer story. And they wouldn't be the last people to cast the eye across Donetsk and think it was full of valuables worth looting. Okay, so they've got, as far as eastern Ukraine, there's then a bit

of a pause, isn't there, but then that push towards Europe restarts in the 12, mid-1230s, would you say, how does that play out in the mid-1230s? Okay, in mid-1230s, Jingis already passed away and is a successor. It's a third son, a good day, and he plan to continue his father's work. The Mongols decide collectively.

Of course, you have a king, Han, Khan, but it's also the organized assembly, and they really decide together. They decide to go on, as I said, because it works while, and they want to be certain that on their frontier, on the Western Frontier, they won't have enemies anymore. So they attacked again in the mid-1230s,

and the idea was not just to conquer Europe. I mean, for them, Europe doesn't mean anything in a way. I mean, also because, as you know, it's fragmentary kingdoms. What they want is to get into the Russian principalities. They think that this area is a troubled area that they need to sort of pacify. When do you start hearing the Mongols mentioned in the European sources, in the European archive? What stage do they start going, hang on, we've got a big problem here?

At that time in Europe, actually the main enemies and the main topic was crusade. The idea was really to organize new crusade, get into Middle East, and there was this fight since two centuries between the Christian and Muslims, to put it very simply, in the area. But then when the Mongol came, actually the first Christian kingdom who heard about the Mongols Georgian kingdom. And there you have a queen, Rusudan. Her name is Rusudan. She's a very famous Georgian queen. And she informed the Pope and she tried to inform all the Christian kingdoms that the Mongols are very dangerous enemies, that they are not Christians and that they are much more dangerous than the Muslims.

and that if there's a crusade, the crusade should be oriented against Mongols, not against Muslim states in Middle East. In Europe, people were puzzled. They didn't know what to think. Vert of all, they had not so much information about the world beyond Middle East, like what's in Central Asia. They have just basic ideas. So they tried to get more information about Mongols.

Also, they knew, and that was true, that they were some Christian in Central Asia, even up to what is China today. And that's true. Those Christians, we call them Nestorian Christians, Eastern Christians. And among Mongol armies, even around Jenghis Khan, they were Christian men and women. So, although it's not Orthodox or Catholic Christian, it's Nestorian Christian, they were. this Christian presence. So that's puzzled the Europe, because they thought, are those people our potential allies, or should we consider them as barbarians and enemies just like the Muslims? Basically, we have, we see two different camps. Some of the European kings, a famous one is

Frederick II, really thought, okay, those people are our enemies, we have to fight them. But others around the Pope, especially missionary orders like Franciscan and Dominican orders. So now maybe those people are not our enemies and maybe we should work with them for tomorrow's world in a way. So when we've seen the sources, I really do. Like in a way, we have very negative description of Mongols, like abhorians, crazy people coming from hell, tar tar, as they say. So people from hell, you know, the river of hell.

Hell, it's called Tatar River. And others say, no, those might have been like special Christians, and we need to work with them. So we have really two cats at that time in Europe. There's more Mongols invading Europe coming up after this. That was the motto and the master plan of the family that through strategic marriages and, in breeding, didn't just gain power, they became Europe. I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb, and in a new series on Not Just the Tudors, I'm coming face to face with the emperors, kings and queens who shaped the continent, not to mention their own jaw lines. Power, scandal and naked ambition. Delve into the dynasty that ruled half the known world on not just the Tudors,

from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so let's come back to that extraordinary year of 1241. You've mentioned that the Mongols are going to launch into the world. We're going to attack King Bella in Hungary. They also, is it just on the way or just a bit of a side hustle? They absolutely humiliate. they just rins the forces of Poland as well? Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, the Mongols, they attacked at the same time different armies from Poland, from Hungary, from also other part of what is Germany today. They are very good at attacking different armies at the same time. They coordinate very well. And in front of them, there are people who are not really, really strong alike. So they humiliated them. You see armies, which are very numerous armies, but completely overwhelmed by Mongol. Also, Mongol military tactics, the way they tease the enemy, the way they pretend to withdraw

while actually they just hide and attack again. They don't know how to fight them. They don't know how to fight the Mongol. They are completely lost. As they don't know Mongols, they also don't know exactly how to, I can have. put that, you know, with my colleagues in anthropology, we work on violence. Perception of violence and exertion of violence is very different culturally. So they don't understand the Mongol violence. They think it's a different type of violence. It doesn't mean they are more violent than the

crusaders, for instance, at the same time. But they are differently violent. And this is super stressful for these armies, you know. They are really worried. And also, Mongols argue that they are hunters. So they consider the enemies are maybe sometimes like animal they would hunt. So they know how to split, like you have a big group in front

of you and they know how to split the groups. So they separate people from each other. They know how to create panics among the enemies and they use all this. And they have to do it because mongos are not very numerous, as I said. They are outnumbered in fact. So they have to

use tricks, you know. That's what makes it so extraordinary. So you imagine at the Battle of Lignitz when they defeat these German and Polish troops, heavily arms of knights, the Mongols seem to withdraw in all these knights charge after them and spread themselves out, and then they're just absolutely hunted down in individual groups. For people familiar with the Battle of Hastings, some of those stories about the retreats at the Battle of Hastings that Duke William of Normandy does there as well, that same sort of thing. But clearly unbelievably well-drilled, well-organized troops, they fight these two battles

in the same month against the Poles and the Germans and then against the Hungarians. I mean, it's got to be one of the most remarkable months in European history, April 1241, and they just crush these two massive European armies. Yeah, you're right. But then what you see also in source is that from European side, people just disagree among themselves.

Who is chiefs? Who decide? And it's exactly the same problem you see with Crusade. It's like there's no clear year. You don't know who's in charge, who's more powerful in terms of even prestige, you know. On the Mongol side, it's very clear. It's a two main organization. So you really know who's the general is in charge with 10,000 warriors.

And then there's someone in charge with 1,000 warriors and one in charge with 100 and one in charge with 10. And they are super respectful with, you know, hierarchy. and that's what you need, you know, on the battlefield. So I think it's a very deep way of fighting also. So that's a climax. But it's interesting because, of course, it's remained like some sort of traumatic moment for the European leader, but some of them already thought, well, we have to negotiate with the Mongols.

So already you have this idea that not everybody wants to fight them. I think it appears clearly that Mongols are not. there to destroy everything. They don't want to do tabula raza, you know. They don't want to destroy cities or plundered everything. They have something else in mind. So people think it's good to negotiate. Also, there's another good strategies. And I have to say it's not coming from European leaders. It comes from the people. The poor people who have, you know, in Hungary and other places, they have to fight. It's very hard for them. They are scared. They just hide. And this is very clever because what happened is at some point Mongols want as I said they want taxpayers they

want an empire they want people to pay tribute and there's nobody anymore and they panic a little bit and they start asking people in Hungary and Poland please come back to your villages please come back to your farms we're going to treat you well we're going to give you good statues but people are not you know they of course are not stupid and they hide in the forest and they wait and so it's also one of the reasons why the mobile at some point decided to leave the area because they cannot sustain themselves there and they cannot really transform those people into subjects because people don't want to. They just refuse, you know, to be the subject of the Mongols. Interesting. But after these crushing victories, they get to the Mediterranean coast. They get

to Croatia. They see the Mediterranean. They do. But then they go there because they are still after this king, Belad the force, so the Hungarian king, run away and the Mongols are after him. And Mongol's idea is like you would have really to negotiate with leaders. Either you kill them because they don't want to negotiate, and that's what happened with Abbasid Caliph in 1258, or they agreed to negotiate. It happened with Armenian leaders who said, okay, fine, we're going to find some common ground, and that's okay. But for them, the leader, the king, is the key person.

So that's why they go after him. But they won't have him. I mean, it's interesting because it's a failure from the Mongol side. They would never capture this famous Belade of force, you know. They go to Croatia. They go behind him and they cannot catch him. So in terms of the Mongol presence in Europe, obviously Europe's occasionally slightly tricky to define.

Its edges are not that clear. But you end up with a long-lasting Mongol. empire, that doesn't include Poland and Hungary, but it does include what we might call today or take me through it, the Caucasus, Russia and chunks of Ukraine and Belarusia. How big is that empire over the next couple hundred years? Well, yeah, part of the Mongols decided to stay in the area what is South and Russia today. We call his wheat historian, but it comes from old sources, Golden Horde. Ord is really a Mongol, Turk or Mongol word. And golden means. imperial. And some of Mongol royal families, so actually from the eldest son of Jenghis,

really wanted this area because it's excellent for nomadic life. You have a very excellent grassland and it's also close to Europe. So trade potential was clear already for the Mongols there. So they built up this sort of state within the states, as we can say, this golden Horde and will, it's going to remain very stronger during three centuries, up to the, almost up to the 16th century, actually. It's interesting because, indeed, they include the Russian principalities, but early 14th centuries, you already see the differences between the northern parts, which would be Russia today, northern principalities, and the south would this basically great part of Ukraine today,

Kiev, Crimea, this all area. It was part of the Golden Horde, so it was part of the Mongolian pirate. It was a very important part, but it was seen as culturally different from the northern principality, from Novgorod, from Vladimir, from Moscow, what's going to be Moscow principality afterwards. And you see that taking shape slowly in the end of 13 and during a whole 14th century under the Mongols. Mongols consider them as their subjects. they don't attack them. They don't have bad relationship where Slavic, to use a very general term, subject.

They have rather good relationship with distance, you know, nomadic people that don't live in cities. Settlers, they live in cities and villages, and sometimes they go and visit the nomads when they need for political reasons or for trade. So they have a lot of exchange, but they don't live together. How interesting. It's like that you go and find the tented nomads

and pay your Jews to them. But we have accounts, don't we, from the 14th century of Mongol raiding parties, riding as far as Germany and appearing in place like Prussia. It just jars with our traditional sense of European history, I think. It's astonishing how powerful this empire was for a long time. Yeah, but we had this negative view of Mongol that was developed after 16th century, in fact, in Russian context.

And after that, in imperial context, because nomads are like people you cannot control, so we didn't like them in those colonial empires in the world in 30th century, 19th century. But back in 13th century, the relationship on the Western frontier was not so bad. Of course, there were a moment of fight and raids, but usually it's because they backed up some rulers. So as they consider the Russian roost sovereigns or the rulers,

if a Russian prince would ask Mongol help. Mongol might decide to help. But it's an internal fight, you know. It's not that like Mongol on one side against Slavic people on the other side. It's like their subject of fight and troubles. Mongol like a police man, you know, sort of at some point say, okay, let's settle down the issues. What we want is to be paid on time and respect for our Han emperor. So I think for today, what is fascinating, like you see this state's empire, but it's a state, right,

where there's a combination of nomad with this very specific economic way of life and settlers, cities and villages, and different religions as well. And they maintain some kind of peaceful relationship. And that's super special for middle ages or early more than period, even worse. you know, where you see fighting all over the place because of prodigious ideas and so on. So Mongols maintain some sort of not so bad, I would say, relationship among their subjects. And that's interesting to study. Yeah, different kind of imperial power.

Can I end by asking you, what do you think the effect on Europe, not just those parts of Eastern Europe that were sort of occupied for generations, but on the rest of Europe, what was the effect on Europe of these Mongol invasions and then having Mongol power so close? Of course, we cannot jump from 13th, 14th century to nowadays. There are a lot of things in between, right? But I think Mongols just sort of show that the world could be more multi-religious or multiple whatever than people expected. Like, for instance, if you look at the Kingdom of France, we knew already there are Muslim communities and Jewish communities, and we have all the Christians, right?

But now we see that it can be even more complicated than that. And then they also see that the trade can go on beyond Middle East and we can do trade with Central Asia and Far East and China. So they open up Europe to something else. They created some expectations for sure. People like Christopher Columbus, they were inspired by people like Marco Polo and people of the 13, 14 centuries, which try business far, far away and discovered crazy products and just so many different peoples

that they'd never expected before. So they show a different world to the Europeans, I would say. And they also show that people can be mixed more than it was seen or expected before, I guess. And also very important, Mongols. So during their conquest already, you know what? They draw maps. They want to map their empire. They want to understand territories and they want it on paper.

or on silk, so it can be painted on silk, you know, or on laser, but they want to understand the world. And during Mongol period, there's a huge progress in world knowledge, like geography. So for European, after the Mongol, I would say the impacts, for me, biggest impact that they understand better where they sit in the world, what is around them. And beyond religious belief, beyond Greek-Tolemian geography, where you see monsters, everywhere. They have a much clearer knowledge of distance, geography, roads, merchandise they can negotiate and stuff like that. So they completely change perception of the world. I would say that's the biggest impact in my sense. Well, it's hard to think of a bigger impact. Maris, thank you so much

for coming on one day. I'm going to come out to Central Asia with you and film as you gallop around and learn about the Mongols, getting your hands on and taking research into all sorts of fascinating in different places. Thanks for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me and welcome anytime. Thank you so much to you for listening to this episode of Dan Snow's History, It. We could not make this podcast without you. That's actually true. So make sure, if you want to keep it going, that is, to hit follow in your podcast player right now. You'll get new episodes dropped into your podcast library automatically by the power of tech. You can listen anywhere you get your pods, Apple, Spotify, even BBC sounds. Imagine a world.

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