Dan Snow's History Hit - The Parthenon Marbles

Episode Date: December 21, 2021

The permanent home of the Parthenon Marbles, also known as the Elgin Marbles, has been the subject of a heated, decades-long debate. Currently housed in the British Museum, Greece has been proactively campaigning for their return since the 1980s. But, how did this controversy start and why did the marbles end up in London, to begin with?In this episode, we find out with the help of Nick Malkoutzis and Georgia Nakou, two Greek journalists and contributors to Macropolis (www.macropolis.gr). You can also hear more from Nick and Georgia on the English-language podcast about greek politics and society, The Agora.Please vote for us! Dan Snow's History Hit has been nominated for a Podbible award in the 'informative' category: https://bit.ly/3pykkdsIf you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! To download the History Hit app please go to the Android or Apple store.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History. You'll have seen in the news recently, on the television news, on the internet, elsewhere, people are talking about the Parthenon frieze again. What people in Britain until very recently knew as the Elgin marbles, the beautiful adornments taken from the Parthenon in Athens by Lord Elgin in the 19th century, shipped to Britain, and now showcased in the British Museum. These have been controversial since the moment they were removed by Elgin and brought to Britain. Why did he do that? Did he have permission to do it? What are they doing in the British Museum? And should we give them back? And by we, I mean, who's we? Who decides whether or not they're sent to Greece? What should we do with artistic and cultural treasures that are in some ways a legacy to all mankind, but in other ways

have a particular connection to a place and a time? They were sculpted in 5th century BC Athens at the height of the Athenian Empire, a place bursting with self-confidence, energy, wealth, and imperial might. Perhaps not uncoincidentally, they were transferred to London when London was experiencing its imperial apogee as well. And Londoners and Brits in general found it very exhilarating to compare themselves to the ancient empires of Greece and Rome. To help us navigate all of these issues and talk me through how the Greek government has been proactively attempting to recover these treasures since the 1980s, I'm joined by Nick Malkoutsis and Georgia Naku. They're two journalists, they're contributors, they're lovers of Greek history, and they're both contributors to macropolis.gr.

It's their English language website for everything Greek, Greek politics and history. You're going to love it. And they've also got their English language podcast all about Greek politics, society, history, and everything called The Agora, obviously. Thank you very much to Nick and George for coming on the pod. And actually, by the end, folks, we hammered out a pretty good compromise. I think we solved it. Solved this thorny issue in Anglo-Greek relations.

Done. See? Get people around a mic. Have a positive chat. Leave your emotions at the door. Don't worry about anyone having to vote for us. And all problems can be solved. There you go.

If you wish to watch programs about the British Museum, about ancient Greece, about any kind of history, really, we've got it. Bear in mind, we've got the best history channel in the world. It's called History Hit TV. It works everywhere where the internet works. You just type in historyhit.tv, historyhit.tv, and you get taken to the Netflix of history. There's a hundred documentaries on there, loads of podcasts, all sorts of things going on. You will then pay a very small subscription, less than the cost of a pint of beer every month, to join History Hit TV. And don't forget, you can gift it because it's Christmas. Gift it to those relatives. Gift it to anyone you like. Very, very straightforward. No supply chain. Even if we're a little bit locked down, you can just send it virtually. Send it electronically.

No problem at all. It's a very versatile present. Historyhit.tv is where you want to go. But in the meantime, let's talk about those Parthenon marbles, those Elgin marbles with Nick and Georgia. Enjoy. Nick and Georgia, thank you very much for coming on the podcast, risking it. Let's hope we get away with this. Great to be with you, Dan. Nick, just come to you quickly. How live is this in Greece? I mean, we've all got big problems at the moment around the world. Is this being talked about in Greece as much as it was maybe a few years ago? It is, and it gets revived every few years. And obviously, we've had the Greek Prime Minister coming over to Britain very recently, talking to Boris Johnson about this, writing an op-ed in the Daily Mail and

trying to get it back in the public domain. It comes and goes. I mean, this campaign started in earnest, the modern campaign started in 1982. And since then, it's been coming and going in the Greek public sphere, but it's always there in the background. There is this deep-felt feeling that the Parthenon marbles should come back to Greece at some point. But I don't want to give your listeners the impression that the average Greek family gathers around the dinner table in the evening and the daily subject that they discuss is, are the Parthenon marbles coming back? It's not at that level. Georgia, let's come to you for the deep dive into the history here. 5th century BC Athens, the Enlightenment, the great flowering of cultural, architectural, literary, dramatic

excellence in Athens at the time. Why was the Parthenon built? Yes, as you say, Parthenon is a monument that belongs to the 5th century BC. It was built in the latter part of the 5th century, which is commonly referred to as the Golden Age of Athens. And it's the period where democracy came into its own as a system of government. Athens was rich and powerful. It saw the fluorescence of Greek drama, great period for the visual arts and so on the parthenon is part of the acropolis complex and the acropolis are on top of a hill that

overlooks athens and the athens of the fifth century was around the foothills of the acropolis the parthenon itself is a temple to Athena, and Athena was the patron goddess of Athens. But to put it into sort of the more proximate historical context, Athens and many of the other Greek city-states had spent the first half of the 5th century battling the Persians, what is known as the Persian Wars. In around 480 BC, the Persians had actually come into Athens. Athens had been evacuated and they razed it to the ground twice in 480, 479 BC. They burnt what was then at that time the old Temple of Athena. Nothing was left.

And this was a great blow to Athens. Once Athens recovered from that, and the Persians were sort of sent back from whence they came, Athens set about rebuilding the monuments and the Acropolis. And so apart from being sort of a religious monument and what we see now as a temple to democracy. It was very much a monument to Athenian might. I would compare it in present day terms to the Freedom Tower in New York after 9-11 to bounce back from that blow and show the world that Athens was very much back and bigger and better than ever. Pericles, who was the powerful man at the time, started this building program, which consisted of several buildings on the

Acropolis and included the Parthenon. It also, in addition to being a temple, housed the treasury of the Delian League, which was the big coalition of the willing that Athens put together to fight the Persians. So in addition to being a temple and a monument to Athenian might, it was very much to become the seeds of the Athenian empire. So you could also look at it as a sort of proto-NATO headquarters. Very much sort of Athens is here, Athens is back, Athens is strong. Maybe a little bit like St. Paul's Cathedral at the end of a troubled 17th century for the English. What about the frieze itself? What's it depict? What can you go and see if you go to the British Museum? Now, first of all,

what is a frieze? What bits of the Parthenon have we got here in the UK? The British Museum currently has just over half of the decorative elements of the Parthenon. So the Parthenon is sort of an oblong building with columns, a colonnade surrounding it. And the bits that were the sort of the most interesting sculptural elements were the frieze, the metopes, which are sort of sculpted panels that also go around the top of the columns.

And then the pedimental sculptures. And these are the sculptures that were sort of in the gable end of the temple. And they show a series of mythological scenes, which show the foundation myth of Athens, starting in sort of deep myth and progressing to, for example, the pedimental sculptures show a series of mythological battles between different groups of mythical creatures, the centaurs and the lapiths and so on. They're all allusions to the history of the deep history of Athens and their allegories for the Persian Wars and Athens is sort of leading the Greek world in a victory against the Persians. Thank you for that. You're slightly triggering. I've got traumatic

memories of my dad dragging me and my sister around and having long lectures about the various metopes and various things like that. But you did it much better than he did, so thank you. We would die of old age if we attempted to chart the course of Athenian history from Pericles onwards. Suffice it to say it was war, it was conquest, it was success, it was failure. Can we come up to the point at which the Brits managed to get their hands on it? We're coming right up to the 19th century. Greece is and has for a long time been under Turkish rule. And what happens?

Just sort of quick fast forward, as you say, after the decline of the classical world and after the Romans took over the Byzantine rule and so on, the importance of Athens as a centre declined. By the time you get to the 19th century, it really was sort of, as they described it at the time, as a village of a few thousand souls around the base of the Acropolis. The Acropolis itself being quite prominent, had been used at times as a defensive structure. And it had fallen into disrepair. And it had also suffered a few sort of episodes of destruction, including being shelled by the Venetians, which really took big chunks out of it and killed several hundred people at the time. So it was sort of a shadow of its former self,

bits of broken stattery lying around. And also it had been sort of looted by the Venetians as well. So there were bits missing. Bits were being used to build other structures around it. There was a mosque on the hill during the Ottoman era in the middle of the classical ruins. And into this sort of steps Lord Elgin. So Lord Elgin, his name was Thomas Bruce, and his title was the Seventh Earl of Elgin. And he lobbied the crown to become an ambassador to the Ottoman Empire.

And he succeeded and he was appointed, I'm going to read this out, ambassador extraordinary and minister plenipotentiary of his Britannic majesty to the sublime port of Selim III, the Sultan of Turkey. So Elgin was a bit of a fan of classical Greece, which was not quite as widespread at the turn of the sort of 18th and 19th centuries it became afterwards. He was a bit of a dilettante, a bit of a collector of ancient bits of stone, and he was very much looking forward to going to Greece for that reason. Before setting off, he approached politicians at the time and said, would you be interested if I was to take some artists with me and record these monuments to improve the tastes back home? And they very much said, no, sorry, we're not interested. But he persevered. He got

there and he set about doing a bit more than just recording the monuments. Now, there's a lot of debate as to what his motives were. He certainly obviously wasn't acting on behalf of the Crown or the British government. He was very much freelancing. Did he intend to bring the pieces back to give to the nation? It's not clear. And many people point to the fact that he was in the process of building his country pile in Scotland at the time. So there's some insinuation that he actually just meant to take the stuff back to scatter around the grounds of Broomhall House. So he got a form of consent to do this. And when we get to it, there's a lot of the debate around the legality of his actions centres around what exactly the Ottomans gave him permission to do and what he actually did, and whether

the permission was strong enough to allow him to take it out of the country. He ended up taking 200 crates full of the nicest bits of the decorative elements of the Parthenon and shipping them to Britain over a course of several years. Just to give you an idea of the magnitude of this hall, he took about 275 feet of frieze, and that's longer than the width of a football pitch. 15 of the metopes and 17 of the pedimental sculptures plus bits of other parts of the

Acropolis, including the caryatid, one of the female maidens holding up the roof of the Erechtheion Temple, which is another sort of iconic piece of 5th century Greek sculpture. He got this to the UK at his own expense, paying £75,000 at the time, which is several million pounds in today's money. In the course of getting home, his wife had an affair. They had a very sort of tabloid style divorce. And Elgin was virtually bankrupted from the combined expense of bringing the sculptures back with him and his costly divorce. So he was more keen than ever to try and sell the artefacts. He made a first attempt to sell them to the British state that fell flat. This was around

sort of 1801. He kept battling on at it. And eventually, the British Parliament approved the purchase of the sculptures for about half of what he paid to ship them back, and then gave them to the British Museum. Not everyone was enthusiastic about it. Lord Byron was very vocal against it. And so were other travellers who'd been to Greece. But public opinion was fairly split on the matter. And there had to be a parliamentary inquiry to approve the purchase. It wasn't until the sculptures went on display in the British Museum that they actually became wildly popular, even amongst Byron's contemporaries. And arguably sort of helped raise awareness around the course of the Greek Revolution

which started in 1821. So that's how they came to be from Athens to London. Well thanks Georgia, that was a tour de force. Nick, we've just heard about the Greek Revolution, sort of the upsurge of nationalism which had a huge impact in Greece and its independence but far beyond Greece as well. When did the Parthenon marbles become an issue, do you think, with the Greek people? Well, the first official request from the fledgling Greek state was made in 1842, the first request for the marbles to return to Greece. And for a long time after that, the issue kind of went on the back burner. Obviously, the Greek state had just been founded and you did a podcast not too long ago on the Greek War

of Independence starting in 1821. It took a while for the war to play out and then for the new state to get founded. And obviously, a new state has all kinds of issues to sort out. But the campaign as we know it today, and perhaps your listeners have seen videos online or posters on the tube, or wherever it may be about international campaign to bring them home, bring them back, that really started in 1982. What kicked it off? There were a number of factors. Firstly, at that point, the Parthenon was really suffering, not just from the ravages of time, but also the ravages of pollution in Athens. Obviously, at that time, Athens was very well known for its cloud of pollution, the nephos, as it was

called in Greek, that hung over the city, and it was really eating away at the sculptures that remained. So at that point, this effort began to preserve and protect the Parthenon, the Acropolis in general. And this coincided with the political change in Greece. A new socialist government had just come to power in 1981. The PASOK party won the elections. And this came after a very troubled period in Greek history where we had a seven-year military dictatorship in the late 60s and mid-70s. And this government wanted to represent a newer, freer, more progressive Greece, but obviously wanted to kind of make this reconnection with the ancient world, which is always a dynamic going on in Greece, in modern Greece, this kind of connection with the past, especially the ancient past. And as we just mentioned, was so instrumental in the support of the international community for the Greek war of independence. But we also had Greece in 1981 joining what was then the European Economic

Community, the EC, today the EU.. It was very much about Greece trying to establish its place in the world, in the Western world. This idea of bringing the marbles back was really part of this effort to show a new face, to show Greece that had a very bright and illustrious history, but one which had a relevant present and promising future as well. And that's when it all started. And the woman who launched that campaign was Melina Mercuri. She was a culture minister. She had been an actress, and perhaps some of your listeners might know her from what was then a very emblematic film, Never on Sunday. People may know the tune to that. She acted in that,

became an international celebrity, which for Greece at that time in the late 50s, early 60s, really didn't have a lot of international celebrities. So she was a nationwide figure, popular with Greeks at home, popular with Greeks abroad, but also known to an international audience. And in 82, she went to a UNESCO conference in Mexico and said, look, we're beginning this campaign to get them back. And as she put it, for the marbles to come back under the blue sky of Attica, Attica being the sort of greater Athens region. And she talked about them returning to their natural space and being reunited as part of a unique whole. And this was really the basis of the campaign was, and it's still relevant today, was that yes, artefacts have been taken for many

countries, but we're not talking about a vase that's been taken or a statue. This is a unique sculpture, which is broken down into pieces. And part of it is in the UK and part of it is here. And we want to reunite it. It's not about just bringing something back home. We want to reunite this work of art, essentially. And you asked earlier about what bits are here, what bits are in the UK. You can sum it up by saying the head of Athena is here in the Acropolis Museum and her torso is in the British Museum. And this was very much at the centre of Athena is here in the Acropolis Museum and her torso is in the British Museum. And this was very much at the centre of the campaign. Let's reunite this. And that was the start of a campaign that's been going on for a number of years since then and has gone through

various ups and downs. You're listening to Dan Snow's History. We're working out what on earth's going on with the Parthenon frieze, the marbles taken by Lord Elgin. More coming up. If you love ancient history, then don't worry. We've got you covered. I'm Tristan Hughes, host of The Ancient's podcast, the podcast for all things ancient history. And these are the only surviving boxing gloves from the Roman Empire and the earliest surviving boxing gloves for over 1,600

years. The Romans of course become so powerful and the Romans conquer the whole of the Mediterranean world and Hannibal was the one who challenged the Romans the most. Bards of Cleopatra. I had never come across any such thing before. Subscribe to The Ancients on History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Eleanor Janaga. And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries. The gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research.

From the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings. Normans. Kings and popes. Who were rarely the best of friends. Murder. Rebellions. And crusades.

Find out who we really were. By subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. What's the current situation? Has there been any movement? I mean, whose decision is it? And what's the mood music been? Is there any smoke coming out of the Vatican chimney? Well, the progress has been limited. Obviously, the marbles are still in the UK. I think there have been various small gains along the way. There was a time when the world would have spoken of the Elgin marbles. Today, it's more likely that we speak of the Parthenon marbles, and that's a result of this campaign of awareness.

When Melina Mercuri began this effort to get the marbles back in 82, it also marked the start of these international committees for the marbles return being formed around the world, including in the UK. And they are really the ones that drive it outside of a sort of government-to-government discussion. The Greek government at various times has made the argument, and it's been pushed back. Initially, the argument was that they're better looked after in the British Museum. Athens is a dirty, polluted city. They're just going to be damaged in the dirty environment there. Then there was the argument that, well, you don't really have a proper museum because at the time, until 2009, Greece didn't

have a large, dedicated Acropolis Museum. There was, I wouldn't call it quite a porter cabin, but there was this very small museum on the actual Acropolis rock. So we had this push just before Athens hosted the Olympics in 2004 to get them back. And that fell flat on its face when the then Greek prime minister, Kostas Simitis, sidled up to the British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, the sidelines of a EU summit. And he didn't realise that the microphones were picking up what they were talking about. And he said to Tony Blair, this was in 2003, you know, look, we've got the Olympics coming up next year. But I also have elections, it would be really useful for me to get the marbles back. And this caused a big furor in Greece. It was a political scandal that we're trying to politicise this issue when it's really a national issue, an issue of national importance. And of course, he didn't get anything

out of Tony Blair. But the interesting thing is that Greece has seen Labour leaders, if not necessarily the Prime Minister in this case, as more receptive to the idea of the conservative leaders of the marbles coming back. So Tony Blair's predecessors, museum to decide this. But even then, as I understand it, it would need a change to the law in the UK, a law in the 1960s. The 1963 British Museum Act, which is intended to preserve the collection for posterity. So there is a political hurdle to overcome, even if the trustees decided they were keen on repatriating them, the law would have to change to allow them to do that. So that's interesting, Georgia. So there's a few people passing the buck recently, very like our current Prime Minister, to try and avoid a problem by just pretending it's someone else's.

He has suggested it is the trustees of the British Museum who have the final say. But if it requires an Act of Parliament as well, then that's not entirely true. I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr Eleanor Yonaga. an act of parliament as well, rebellions. And crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Wherever you get your podcasts. Yes, and this is sort of convenient for both the government and the British Museum

because it avoids anyone having to make a tough decision on this front. You know, it's very legalistic. And I think it's interesting that there was a letter made the papers recently from a former UK ambassador to Athens who said that really the UK should avoid or British authorities should avoid falling back on these arguments because they're very transparent and they sort of don't make the UK should avoid or British authorities should avoid falling back on these arguments because they're very transparent and they sort of don't make the UK look as if it's acting in good faith or the BM. Do we know, has anyone done a sort of exciting politics style or England football style breakdown of what all the different trustees think about the issue? They don't publish their

individual views. There's a couple of sort of interesting developments just around this general area. I mean, one is that there is a greater movement generally towards restitution of cultural property. If you look beyond Athens and beyond Greece, there are obviously other countries whose antiquities make up the British Museum's collection. And that is, you know, what is promoted as the great strength of the British Museum, that it holds treasures from around the world. The issue with that is that at the moment, you know, that's come to be seen as a bit of a weakness, because it really exposes the colonial history of Britain and aspects of the colonial history that are less of a cause for pride. For instance, the slave trade. And just to give you a sort of an example that is completely separate from the marbles, but quite relevant.

There's a group of artefacts called the Benin bronzes that are scattered around the world. Several in the BM, the Metropolitan Museum, and so on. They were looted from the Kingdom of Benin, which is now modern day Nigeria. They were looted as part of a sort of destruction of the kingdom to do with retaliation over the slave trade. Because of those associations, there's been a pressure on the institutions that hold them to give them back. Slightly more clear-cut case because of the circumstances of their taking, but several institutions have voluntarily given them back, not for legalistic reasons, but simply because it's not a good look anymore to show these things away from their context and to potentially sort of hide their context. Because of the way that the argument for the reunification of the Parthenon marbles has been presented in the past, it's exceptional, it's a one of a kind, it's not like any of these other things. They have sort of isolated themselves from this movement. But it is sort of a sign

of a turning tide that may eventually help to, you know, lead to their restitution. Sounds to me, George, like the Greeks have opened the door to the other solution, which is send a person on to the UK and have it reunited there. I think it's unlikely to turn that way. Yeah, I was just going to pick up on the point that you made. And obviously, everything that's going on at the moment that she described, the Greek government is looking at. We have a centre-right government in place for the last couple of years.

And as you know, Dan, as we mentioned, Greece was celebrating its bicentenary this year, 200 years since the start of the War of Independence. bicentenary this year, 200 years since the start of the War of Independence. And all this added to the feeling that now is the right time to make another push. We mentioned earlier the issue of the museum. Greece has a new Acropolis Museum since 2009, designed by a Swiss architect, Bernard Chumi, and Greek collaborator, Michalis Fotiadis. And it's a stunning building. I'm sure you visited it. And for your listeners, really, if you're in Athens, I mean, it's not exactly off the beaten path, but for once the beaten path makes sense here. It really is as a building in its own right, but also because of what it has inside. And that's where you can really see what's missing.

And that's perhaps if you're not so aware of this issue, when you go in there, you really understand the destruction that has taken place. So all these things combined give the Greek government the impression that it's time to make another push. And that's why it became such an issue during the current Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis' visit to the UK. And he took it up personally with Boris Johnson. And in fact, he presented Boris Johnson with a photograph of a rosy-cheeked British Prime Minister or student, as he was there at Oxford University, when Melina Mercury, the Culture Minister we are talking about, went to the Oxford University Union to debate this exact issue in 1986. I'm not sure we've

made a huge amount of progress there, but given everything else that is going on, there is a feeling that perhaps the door is gradually opening and at least Greece doesn't have to make the argument that it has a valid case anymore. The onus is on the other side. Okay, folks, I'm going to ask you the big question. I hope you don't mind answering in a personal capacity. Let's start with Georgia. What do you think? What's the answer? What's the way out of this?

I think the tide is turning on this, but I think it's not going to be easy. I mean, any kind of resolution would have to involve a win-win, diplomatically negotiated solution. The British Museum, it's unlikely to just return the sculptures to Athens because they have long argued that this would open the floodgates to all sorts of requests. I would argue that, you know, slowly the floodgates are being prized open, but this would be a big one. to the British Museum as it stands currently. And someone really sort of radical would have to come in and reconceive the museum for the modern era. The other thing I'd say is that the current

British government might have to change before any great moves take place. There was some pretty trenchant rhetoric that greeted George Osborne's appointment to chair the board of trustees from groups of Tory backbenchers who basically wrote an open letter calling him not to give in to the so-called woke agenda, which would involve entering into negotiations over things like the Parthenon marbles and even smaller scale restitutions. We can all agree that Priti Patel and Boris Johnson aren't going to be, aren't going to be packing the crates. Not receptive.

But Georgia, come on, don't wriggle out your little politician. What's going on here? Oh, what do I think? Yeah, what do you think? What do I think should happen? Or what do I think will happen? What do you think should? Come on.

It's like having Boris Johnson on the podcast. Ducking and diving, weaving. Yeah, ducking and diving. I don't have a very strong view on what should happen because I think for the purposes of scientific study, they can be anywhere. I think the moral case is to return them to Greece. And I think there are many ways in which you can go about plugging the gap.

We have all sorts of technology at our fingertips now. Microsoft just did an augmented reality reconstruction of the whole site at Olympia. Not a very tasteful one, but that's a matter of taste, not a technological ability. So I think more and more moving towards these technological solutions

that will make it less painful to part with things. And then there are also things like, you know, I think the Greek governments sort of turn more towards offering things in exchange. So permanent, not permanent, but sort of a rolling kind of sequence of loans to museums. So imagine something like the Tutankhamen exhibit, but with Agamemnon's mask and the Mycenae treasures. You know, there's all sorts of things that can happen if museums can sort of work together that way, make things more interesting for everyone, really. Okay, listen, I think that's well done, Georgia. That's going to be my new opinion. Thank you very

much for that. Have I nailed it? That's all sorted. Everyone go home. Nick, what do you think? Look, Dan, speaking as someone who loves the British Museum, and obviously I have a great deal of time for the Acropolis Museum. I want to see them both flourish, and I understand this is a difficult issue in that respect. But also, as someone born to Greek parents in the UK and now living in Greece for many years, I've kind of grown a bit tired of this issue always seeming to dominate, at least on the surface, relations between the two countries, when there's so much that's interesting and diverse and progressive and really fantastic

about what's going on. Obviously, this is a story that attracts a lot of media attention. It's sexy, people write about it and so on, but it's not anything to do with the current relationship between the two countries and the peoples within the two countries. So I would love to see it resolved. And I would like to go to a quote by the British Museum director, Hardvig Fischer, when he gave an interview to Tanea newspaper, a Greek daily newspaper I mentioned before in 2019. And he essentially suggested that maybe we should appreciate Lord Elgin's act and his argument. And I quote here, and I'll give my comment on the end. You could, of course, be saddened by the fact that the original environment has disappeared.

When you move a cultural heritage to a museum, you move it outside its original environment. However, he says, this shifting is also a creative act. Now, you can imagine, Dan, how that went down in Greece. Lead balloon, to put it mildly. But if he's talking about the creative act, and I won't comment on that, but maybe it's time for another creative act so many years after Lord Elgin's one, if we're going to call it that. I think there are solutions, and the Greek government, not just this one but previous ones, have tried to be constructive, and I think as time has gone on, perhaps be more constructive in this debate. And they've offered to, in return for getting the marbles back, to send on this sort of rotation important ancient Greek artefacts to be exhibited at the British Museum.

So maybe that's a starting point for a sensible adult discussion about this. You know what? I mean, I like the Parthenon marbles, but I think I'd take rotating greatest hits of ancient Greece every six months. I think that's a good deal. I think the British Museum should go for that deal. It's pretty sweet. Well, someone made the point of discussing that the BM could actually charge for admission to rotating exhibits, whereas it can't make any revenues off the Parthenon marbles. Money spinner. Your phone's going to be ringing off the hook after this podcast, let me tell you. You're going to have George Osborne on the old blower. So I was just going to say, Dan, that my son, he's 13 now, but when he was about seven or eight,

and obviously they're taught about this in Greek school, that Elgin came along and ripped half the marbles off the Parthenon. He suggested to me we take his grandfather's pickup truck, drive it to London, break into the museum, steal the marbles and bring them back. Heist movie idea. If they go missing one day, no one heard that from me. Well, listen, more likely that's coming in the next David Williams book, buddy.

Watch out. Protect your intellectual property on that one as well. Georgia and Nick, thank you so much. That was, I think, a really interesting discussion. I learned a lot about the history. And there were some solutions there as well. That's very unusual for this podcast. It was practical ideas for a better future brilliant well done thank you dan

thanks folks congratulations well done Well done, you. I hope you're not fast asleep. If you did fancy supporting everything we do here at History Hit, we'd love it if you would go and wherever you get these pods, give it a rating, five stars or its equivalent. A review would be great. Thank you very much indeed. That really does make a huge difference. It's one of the funny things the algorithm loves to take into account.

So please don't ever do that. It can seem like a small thing thing but actually it's kind of a big deal for us i really appreciate it see you next time you