Dan Snow's History Hit - The 'Scandalous' Life of Marie Antoinette

Episode Date: September 24, 2026

They called her a treasonous nymphomaniac who bankrupted France for diamonds and cake. The revolutionaries didn't just execute Marie Antoinette - they waged a brutal smear campaign to ruin her first. But what if almost everything you’ve been told about 'Madame Déficit' is a lie? From fake royal sex scandals to a black-market diamond heist that brought down a monarchy, this is how a teenage Austrian princess became the most hated woman in Europe.Joining Dan is Kate Williams, author of 'Regina: A New History of Women and Power’.Produced by James Hickmann and edited my Natasha Hughes.We need your help! Let us know what you want from Dan Snow's History Hit by filling in our anonymous survey here: https://forms.gle/PvgayWLkWGjYT4St6Dan Snow's History Hit is now available on YouTube! Check it out at: https://www.youtube.com/@DSHHPodcastSign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.You can also email the podcast directly at [e-mail] Snow's History Hit is a History Hit podcast.History Hit is part of Little Dot Studios, a Certified B Corp™. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit history hit.com slash subscribe. Glamorous, extravagant, scandalous, deeply misunderstood. Mary Antoinette became the ultimate symbol of the French Revolution, the poster girl for the excessive monarchy that feasted while the country starved, who draped themselves in jewels as people died in the streets. At one point, she was the most hated woman in France.

The woman they blamed for it all, but did she deserve it? Mary Antoinette, she was a teenage arch-duchess, she was a princess from Vienna, sent across Europe as a political bargaining chip to secure an alliance between rival empires. In 1770, 14 years old, she entered the suffocating spectacle of Versailles, a court of ritual, a court of surveillance where every gesture was judged and every weakness exploited. As the French monarchy began to fracture under crises that were totally out of her. control, the queen became a scapegoat, a scapegoat for the nation that was desperate for someone to blame. As we loved doing this show, we are going to be sorting out the truth from the myth. There is no one better to do this than Professor Kate Williams, historian broadcaster, author of a new book called Regina, a new history of women and power. We're very lucky to have her on

the pod once again. From the halls of Versailles to the prison cells of revolutionary Paris, right, in fact, to hear our podcast studio in History HQ, this is the story of Mary Antoinette. Kate Williams, good to have you back on the park. Thrill to be here. I mean, what a start. We're going to talk about Marion Sornet. The key thing is, not French, Austrian. That's kind of essential to understanding her in many ways, right?

Not French. Austrian, the Austrian princess, and she was criticised for that at the time, so she's not French. I'd say her spending didn't break Versailles, and she never said let them eat cake. So there's some myth to overturn. We're going to puncture to this left, right and centre.

But the Austrinists is fascinating. Her mum, Maria Theresa, actually one of the great figures of the 18th century in her own right, like two seconds on Maria Theresa, held an empire together against Frederick the Great, who's pretty hardcore, whilst having children all over the place in a man's world, extraordinary woman.

Extraordinary woman. I mean, Mariantoinette is her 15th child. No. And she's really up doing work on her papers while she's pretty much in labour with Marie Antoinette and gives birth to this small but perfectly healthy archduchess. And when her husband died, who's a pretty benign figure.

When her husband dies, when Marianne Twanette is a young girl, really Maria Theresa then becomes the king. She then becomes the king. She rules with an iron fist. She rules for her son. I mean, she is one of the most powerful women, really, in history in Europe. Would Mary Antoinette have had much access to her mum, do you think, in those early years?

Oh, Marie Antoinette's mother was a control woman, a helicopter mother. We've got a helicopter parent there. There's none of this gentlewet's. parenting with Maria Theresa. She was intent on Marie Antoinette. And there's a rather tragic moment. Well, there's the series of moments when smallpox sweeps the family. So what happens when you're the 15th Archduchess, you think you're probably a long way away from a major marriage chessboard is a moment. But in fact, two sisters get killed by smallpox. Another one survives, but her looks are deemed so bad that she has to go and be a nun.

and becomes a very powerful abyss. But Marianne Twinnett then moves up the sort of table of and becomes a powerful piece on the chessboard. And that's why her mother becomes more intent on making her into this perfect princess. She's got to be educated. She has music. There's a combination between having a rather fun childhood. They've got a menagerie with a rhino and there's Mozart comes and tells Marie Antoinette, perhaps apocry this story.

He tells Marie Antoinette he wants to marry her. and they have a rather lovely life with ice skating, but also Maria Theresa sees her daughters in particular as, a bit like Queen Victoria did. These are our way of creating alliances across Europe, and you are going to tow the line, and Marie Antoinette is made very clear to her early on, you are born to obey.

And the Austrians have been fighting the French for longer than anyone can remember, but, and traditionally they've sort of, Europe's been a sort of contest between those two, But now you've got the Prussians on the scene. You've got these Germans rising in the north. And you get this extraordinary revolution, don't you? This absolute 180. France and Austria do the unthinkable, prompted by this dangerous new player. They do the unthinkable and they form an alliance. And Marianne's key to that, I suppose.

They form an alliance. And how do you seal this deal with a princess? So Archduchess, Marie Antoinette, she is going to be betrothed to the Dauphin, to the future king of France. They had thought about it for her sister, Maria Carolina, but because of the death of the elder sister, Maria Carolina, goes off to marry the King of Naples and later has all kinds of drama in her life, including Emma Hamilton and Nelson. And Marie Antoinette, she's destined for the French court. And Marie Antoinette, her job, when she's sent off to the French court,

when she's only 14 after being married by proxy, her mother says, oh, do so much for the French that they say, I've sent them an angel. It's a lot of weight on a teenager's shoulder. Yeah, so first, like a couple of questions. So she is a teenager still. She's a teenager still. She is married by proxy, then she's sent over at 14 to conduct the marriage.

Any saying it herself? No. This is just, you're told what you're going to be doing. Zero say. Zero say you are there to obey. You are there to create glory for Austria. And, you know, really with Marie Antoinette, you see this problem for the consort. On one hand, she's supposed to give everything to France.

On the other hand, she's supposed to advocate for the interest of her home country. The ultimate diplomat. The ultimate diplomat. So you've got to split personality. So there's still a little of agency here is that you're not just a piece on the chess board to go and join the French. You have to work hard. The expectation is you are going to, you're a politician in your own right. You are going to represent Austria.

You're going to make France great. You're going to embody this new alliance. And you do that at 14. You have to make Austria great secure the alliance. and it's so symbolic Marie Antoinette's journey to France because she sets off in this most wonderful trousseau, fabulous outfits, gorgeous gowns, they're all wondrous. There's this fantastic exhibition at the VNA of what could have been many of Marianne's gowns,

and they are teeny tiny, and that's probably because these are children wearing them. Marie Antoinette is so young. So she sets off in this wonderful trousseau, and then when she gets to the border, what happens is every piece of Austrian dress and her jewelry is taken offer. So he's totally undressed by the ladies, by the French ladies, and then redressed in French dress so that nothing remains of the Austrian clothing, not even underwear, because that is a foreign court. And even her pug mops is taken offer in Mary Antoinette's very sad, but that's just symbolic. The pug is actually sent later

to Versailles. So then Marianne Antoinette then says, I don't want to hear anything. but French. That is who I am now. And she sets off in her French finery, surrounded by women she doesn't know, who are very formal with her. They're very formal with her. There's no hugs. There's no, you know, handholding. They're very formal with her. And then she goes to meet her future husband, who is, well, he's one of life's pragmatic diarists. He just writes in his diary meeting with Madame the Dofine. And that's it. That's it. That's it. So not much poetry there in his heart. Her name changes at that border as well. Yes, she was Maria Antoine, and now she's Marie Antoinette. And everything about her is supposed to be French, except she's, as you say, the child of the historic enemy. I mean, they've been the enemy for so long. So it's all very well the elite saying Austrians are friends now. But do the other people, the ordinary people, do they really feel that way?

Now here is the young princess who is pretty, graceful, elegant. She's charming. She charms Versailles, but she is Austrian. She speaks perfect French. She's learning perfect French. Her mother constantly criticises her for the standard of her handwriting and her reading. We might possibly say now that it may be that Marianne Twennett is, would be defined as dyslexic now. But her mother's always telling her off her handwriting. But Marianne Twennett's speech and language is really very, very good, very early.

So she's immured in the court very quickly. Now, so she wins friends at court or impresses people at court. But there are lots of innuendo and rumors about her marriage and whether it was happy at first or whether it was even consummated at first. So they have the grand wedding, the king, who is grandfather of her husband, he thinks she's delightful and everything seems marvelous. Louis the 15th. Louis the 15th.

But there is this one problem. the marriage does not seem to be consummated. And this means she can be put aside at any time. She's talked by the Austrians, you don't understand the danger. But she does. She understands that. And as to when the marriage is consummated. And by the way, how do we know that?

Was consummation a sort of semi-public event? It's not a semi-public event. It's just the fact that she's not falling pregnant. And the gossip is that they don't know what they're doing. And the question of when it was consummated is one that historians debate. It could have been three years, but we know for sure it's seven years because then she falls pregnant. So that's for sure. But I think it's probably around three, four years.

It takes them to work out. To work it out. A sort of doctor has to be sent to talk to them. Her brother actually later goes to talk to them again. And it is sort of obviously, you know, Louis, he's a very simple soul. He's a simple soul. He loves clocks. He loves playing with locks.

He was never really intended to be king. And I think he just, he just perhaps wasn't his bag. And certainly, unlike every other French king, he doesn't have a mistress. So Louis doesn't have a mistress. Jesus. Louis the 15th. Well, yeah. Grandpa, Louis.

Well, he's had, well, that Madame Dubari is everywhere at court. And initially, Mariannezzan says, who's that rather lovely lady? And she's told, ah, she's there to. give pleasure to the king. And Mariantoinette says, oh, that's good. I'd like to give pleasure to the king too. And then like, yes, not like that dear. And initially, when Mary Antoinette realizes who Madame de Barry is, she's really rather shocked that a mistress is openly at court and won't acknowledge her. And finally, she's persuaded to do so, which is seen as a great diplomatic breakthrough just to say, hello, aren't there a lot of people here today? Because Madame

Dumarri is all-powerful and the old king is really in charge. And this is a moment when Marianne Trenet hasn't consummated her marriage. But she acknowledges Madame Dubarie, the mistress who controls everything. She consummates the marriage. And then things seem to go reasonably well. But the lack of a mistress is actually very annoying to a lot of people at court because they want a mistress and a wife. So you can have two pathways towards the king. And also what we'll see is. a bit later on is that people might want to criticize the monarchy, but they don't want to attack the king because that could be treason, and maybe he's chosen by God. So they'll attack the wife, and they'll attack the mistress. But with no mistress, it's all going to go on the wife. And France is, I mean, I think France is a perpetual state of crisis, but France has a problem

in the 17th, 60s and 70s, isn't it? Which is not enough money, too much expenditure. They've taken an absolute beating from the Brits in the seven years war. So, they're keen for revenge. I mean, where does she, that, that, you've talked brilliantly about her in terms of the court, the sort of politics of court. What, what about the sort of wider, the challenges facing France? Is she involved in those conversations? Challenges facing France are, as you say, Dan, catastrophic. There's the huge debt after the seven years war. Tax collecting is very inefficient and mainly falls on the poor, who haven't got that much money anyway. Aristocrats aren't paying tax. In some areas pay more than others. The court, Versa

Versailles is insanely expensive. It is insanely expensive, but the real cost is these wars that France has been engaged in and the fact there's no tax collection. And it's a very sort of archaic, I would say, in terms of centralised bureaucracy and the civil service, it's really creaking. And so Marie Antoinette is in this court. And what she's been trained to do is be the fairy at the top of the Christmas tree and organise this entire court. And yet also, there are these waves of anger about people's lives just before the coronation. So when Marie Antoinette and Louis become king and queen, just before the coronation, we have what is known as the flower wars, battles over the rising price of bed and riots.

And that is when it is said to have been the moment when the queen said, let them eat cake. But it's not actually true. It's it. The Let Them Eat Cake is actually totally untrue. First of all, the quote was about brioche. So it was about Let them eat brioch. But it was actually written by Jean-Jacques Rousseau in his confessions. The philosopher, the philosopher in 165, so when Marie Antoinette was about nine, he said, I'm going to a bakery, but I think my clothes are too nice. And then I remembered a great princess who said of the poor, let them eat cake. So this is when Marie Antoinette was nine. No one knew who she was in France. I mean, it's totally impossible.

it would have been her. And it just then becomes attributed to her in the 1840s and becomes a myth that we can't ever shake off. It's a bit like Catherine the Great, her contemporary, who later writes with some really helpful advice in the midst of the revolution. Catherine, the Great writes to say, well, kings should just do as they please and carry on in their own way. You're like, yeah, thanks, Catherine, great advice. Yeah, very useful. The myth of her and the horse is created later and can't be dislodged. So Married Warwick did never say let them eat cake, but as to how much she comprehended, understood, took seriously the riots of the poor about bread. No one did. Versailles was this bubble, this elite bubble. And they thought that if you just let the poor come in and watch you eat, that's enough.

So we got 1774, they become king and queen. They're getting on pretty well at this point. They've got children. The marriage is going much better and when they're in their apartments when the old king is dying and then this just sums up Versailles to me they're in their apartments praying and then they hear this thunder, thunder

of footsteps and it's the entire court running from the king's deathbed to the new king and queen and she's just 18 and that's the new centre of power poor old Louis the 15th just left there everyone's forgotten about him and John Dubari's been said

away. So not even she's there. It is now the king and queen and she says, we are too young. And yet she's now at the top of the tree, 500 people. It's all about hierarchy. It's so ridiculous that when you get dressed, your outfit has to be handed to you by the most senior lady. So if someone else comes into the room, they have to start the whole thing again. And there's this wonderful book in the Archieve Nacional of Marianne's wardrobe, all these individual pieces of material that she used as. reminds me a bit of the beginning of clueless when Cher chooses her outfit on a computer. You can marry internet all the outfits, but that's her job. And she sees that as her job to dress, to ornament, to preside over court, to support her husband. But what is wanted from the monarchy is changing. And it's changing because there's a war brewing in North America and France will launch itself into that war.

And that proves also incredibly costly. And ultimately, the rewards do not accrue to the French. despite Britain being defeated, the French end up having had another, well, really kind of, I suppose, a strategic setback. You spent loads of money. The American colonies are independent, but sure, the French haven't actually gained that much out of it. I mean, it's another disaster for the French, and they're already in debt, and then they go and take part in this hugely costly war with Britain. So the national debt is ballooning by this point. It's simply going wild, and of course, the Queen is going to be blamed. And why? Is it because because she's still presiding over this glittering cords and wearing out as a jewellery and nice dresses? I mean, or is she a real spender? I mean, let's get, let's get into that myth. Is she fiddling while Rome burns at this point?

The queen does spend too much. Her mother tells her off. She does spend too much. Versailles spends too much. The king spends too much. They see that as their duty. Their duty is to be fabulous. Be fabulous. Foster, French manufacturing. That's their job. but I think there are such wider problems and one of the real problems as to why there's so much anger against Marie Antoinette is because she excludes the traditional hierarchy of the nobility from her small circle. So initially, even after the marriage we believe is probably consummated, it takes some time for a child to appear. And first it is a little girl, everyone's pleased, but it's girl.

That's no good in France. It's got to be a boy. giving birth is so public at the time that there's such a huge crush in the room of people all around poor Marin Twent at giving birth that she faints and no one realises because they're so busy talking all the room is full of people

and they're just chatting it's chatting even even some servants are like perched on top of cabbets and stuff having a good look having a good look yeah it's like that TV show that used to be on one born every minute but the royal version well you know you think about how our births were publicly witnessed by politicians up until Elizabeth II, when she was Princess Elizabeth,

was giving birth to Prince Charles and the King thought, maybe not. The Home Secretary sat outside the door or something. I mean, royals, as Elizabeth Second's governor said, are only private in the womb. If they probably could put the royal birth on a TV screen, we all watch it in Hyde Park. It would do good numbers, Kate. People would all be watching it. So, yes, this is what poor Marion Twinnett has. And then she gives birth to her son, and her husband says she fulfilled the joy of France.

Little Louie. She's very popular at that point. But the problem is that when she arrived at court, she didn't like the hierarchy. It's not how she was used to in the Austrian court. And she felt that many of them had been rather cruel to her of a childlessness. So she has this very small group of chums, including the Princess Dutambal, Pollyne, the Count of Pollynec. And the traditional aristocracy don't like this. And they feel excluded.

So we see Marie Antoinette going off to her, you know, the petty tree on which you can still go to in Versailles. Which is like a little, she builds a little, carves out a corner of the side. It's already there and she just renovates it. It's very beautiful. But it's tiny by royal standards. And that's where she can go to feel much more free away from the stultifying court. But it's a small group of people who are allowed there. And Antonio Fraser, who's written just an iconic book about Marianne Quintinette,

she writes so well about this small group, this small social group that Mary Antoinette becomes socially dependent on. and it's actually shown very well in the Sophia Coppola film but it's all these young, fun people but it's a problem because the traditional aristocrats of Versailles they don't like being excluded and when they want to whip up hatred against Mariantoinette it's not going to work for them to say how well no one invited us to the party

oh dear oh well where am I but if they say this place where Marianne Antoinette parties she's pretending to be a shepherdess She's playing a binger shepherdess and getting involved in all these strange orgies. That's what's going to work. So some of this is disgruntled aristocrats who aren't being invited to the party. So if that's a model, invite them all.

As your mum says, the bullies, they're just jealous. They're just jealous. Invite the whole class to your party. Mariannec did not invite the whole class to her birthday party. And we should say, so you've mentioned this little cottage and they all there and they have great times and a bit of privacy. They do, you mention the shepherdess, and they have, what, animals and things? I mean, she's not doing cosplay to be a shepherdess, presumably she's got a sheep there. It's nice, right?

It's a real sheep. Yes, it's the petty hammer is Marianette's farm. And it's a working farm. It is a working farm. And this is very fashionable in the aristocracy to have small working farms. It actually puts food on the table in Versailles. So we might say she's a very early allotment keeper. But what is a very traditional occupation for women, pretty common among the aristocracy,

is easily shaped by the caricaturist into this playing at being a shepherdess. So divorce from reality. So divorce and reality. People are starving and here she is dressed a bit like bo-peepin toy story wandering around looking for her sheep. And then what about sexual, the suggestions that that was also a place where she could have affairs? I mean, this has been leveled at every single woman who has ever been wielded power. So, I mean, how seriously are we going to take this?

Marianneville is accused of having affairs that when she does have this son that he's not legitimate, She's accused of having various lovers, lesbian lovers. Princess Dutambal is accused of being her lesbian lover. All kinds of lovers. Basically anyone who comes anywhere near Marie Antoinette is her lover. And all of them. I mean, absolutely not. There's a possibility with scholars discuss it with Count Ferson, who is a very handsome soldier and he's very much in Marianne's inner circle. And the letters that have been found and decoded are from their later friendship. And they seem very affectionate. So all it tells us is they had a very affectionate friendship later in life. Did they have an affair? We, I think, will never know.

But certainly, all the caricatures, it wasn't about the truth. And in fact, the lesbian love accusations were much more potent, it seems, because those were the really shocking ones. That's the outrageous ones. The Queen corrupts even the ladies in her circle. She corrupts everyone, the Eutrechen. So in the 1780s, the wars come to an end, but France is kind of on the winning side,

hasn't really got much to show for it. No. And is utterly bankrupt. The French system depends on a super charismatic, capable king at the top. It's not like Britain where you've got sort of political class ruling. So you need, you need a kind of Louis XIV-style baller in charge. Louis the 16th is not one of those people. So there's a lot of problems.

You're absolutely right. You know, he just wants to be looking at his clocks. You need to be charismatic. Rule with an iron rod, come down hard on the aristocracy. You're absolutely right. That is what France needs as a monarch if a monarch is to survive. And our man, Louis, is not that. He's in a bubble. Right. But Marianne Srinich keeps getting the blame for things. I mean, I look at this period and think, the person, the guilty man here is Louis.

He's an incompetent fool. I mean, a nice guy, tinkering on his clocks. But Paul Marianne Srette keeps taking hits for her husband, effectively, in poor government. She takes the hits. And this is the fascinating question about queens. Yes, they live in gilded palaces. Yes, they live in gilded cages. Yes, they can't. They eat wonderful food when their people starve. But sometimes they're just there to be put in a sort of lined up and like a bowling alley and have a ball thrown at them and knocking them down. Because that's what she's used for attacked over and over again. People, you know, generally leave Louie out of it. She is the one. She's sexually depraved. She's spending. She's much. She's much. She's

Madame deficit. She's the one that's causing this ballooning debt, which creates massive inflation, huge prices of bread. It's all her fault. And she's this easy target. And she does try and counter this with images of her as a royal mother. And it really fascinates me in the history of queenship how so many women try and use the images of them as a royal mother from Cleopatra, Mary Antoinette. I'm sure Amber Lynn did so as well, if we hadn't have lost so many of her portraits. But people don't want that. They want the sexy, wild, elizzias, party girl, Marie Antoinette. And that's what was thrown at her over and over again. And then she comes to the biggest scandal of all, which is going to tear her reputation apart.

Oh, what's that? That is the affair of the diamond necklace. Oh, sounds like Sherlock Holmes. It sounds like Sherlock Holmes. Now, Dan, I know you're one for beautiful jewelry and glamorous, glamorous jewels. I know. Yeah, you've got to imagine now the most unpleasant diamond necklace. I know it sounds in that oxymor one, doesn't it? But it's this diamond necklace, it's sort of giant thing, sort of square thing, 650 stones, tassels,

tassels and crosses and blobs. It's not very appealing. No, it sounds rubbish. It's totally rubbish. Now, this necklace was made by Louis XIV, for Madame Dubari. His mistress. His mistress, commissioned for her.

It was going to be her insurance. So I suppose when you're using a diamond necklace as insurance, you don't want it to be just a delicate little solitaire diamond. You want all the whoppers so you can use it as a piece to fund you when you get sent away. Now it didn't get finished before the king Louis 15th died. Oh no. And so it kind of, the jeweller Burma carries on doing it and then thinks, what shall I do with it?

And he says to Marie Antoinette when she comes to the throne, would you like this? And she says, oh, no, because she doesn't want something made for a mistress. It doesn't suit her taste. She goes for these much more simple outfits, very simple Muslim dresses. This is the new fashion doesn't suit her taste. And she also thinks it's too expensive. She says, we need ships more than we need a necklace.

A woman after my own heart. I know. Isn't she just, isn't she just so very heroic? She won me over a minute. Yes, exactly. Exactly. She'd buy all the ships. And then when she has a son,

Up comes the jeweller. Oh, a push present, I believe we would call it. Would you like this present? And, you know, just 1.5 million livres. And she says no. So the jeweller's got this ridiculous necklace on his hand. And he sends a paste version round the other courts of Europe. And all the other women say, oh, I'm not buying this.

It's horrible. And then we have a man called Cardinal de Roham, who had been the ambassador from Paris in the Austrian court. And Marianne Tuanette thought he'd said, mean things about her, so it doesn't like him. And he feels excluded. And then he gets a message suggesting that he meets a mysterious lady in the gardens of Versailles at night. And he turns up there in the gardens of Versailles. And there is beautiful, gorgeous Marie Antoinette. And she says to him, you may imagine that the past is forgotten and essentially asks him to buy the diamond neck

for her in secret so no one knows and then she'll pay him back. And so transported, because number one, he's back in favour. Number two, he thinks he's going to have an affair with Marie Antoinette. He thinks that meeting her in the twilight zones of the Versailles gardens means very exciting stuff. He speaks to the jeweller and the jeweller, poor old jeweller, is over the moon that he's going to sell this white elephant necklace that everybody thinks he's disgusting.

Well, maybe probably be a bit far on disgusting, but not the most beautiful necklace anyone's ever seen. And so the necklace is handed over and De Rohan thinks it's all marvellous. But then there's a problem. Marianne Antoinette still keeps

ignoring him. She just just cold shoulders him at first time. And that's weird. And then the jeweller writes to Mary Antoinette her lady-in-waiting, her chief lady-in-waiting Madame Campan and says, I can have the money now. And Marionne in Madame Campan, what's he talking about?

He's just trying to get us to buy something. We're just going to ignore this sales pitch. And the dealist says, no, no, you actually owe me the money for the necklace. You bought it, you need to pay for it. And the whole thing gets exposed. Now, what has happened is Cardinal de Rohan had this very glamorous mistress, Jean, who was an illegitimate, illegitimate descendant of the French royalty, Countess de Lamont.

And she could see how naive he was. And therefore got a Parisian sex worker called Nicole Doliver to dress up as Marie Antoinette and pretend to be her in the gardens of Versailles. And therefore, the necklace was then delivered to Jean de Lamont, who nicked it, took the whole lot and sold it off. And now everyone's in the midst of a drama. and Cardinal Rohan is called in front of the King and Queen to account for this. And he says, but look, Marri Antoinette, you wrote me letters.

And he gets these letters out. And they say to him, because that's not, because she signs them, Mary Antoinette de France. And that's not how Queen signed the letters. It's like Elizabeth R. It would just be Mary Antoinette. And they say to him, how did you know this? How do you not know this? And he says, oops.

And we have this gigantic problem. if Mary Antoinette had bought that necklace, stuffed it in her jewelry box, just said to herself, okay, I hate it, but it was commissioned by the monarchy. Maybe I have to fulfil their debts. I think it would have just been a minor scandal of spending. This blows up. Now, some courtiers say, I think, king, hush it up. This is just too scandalous, hush it up.

But the king and queen think that making this a public discussion is a way of saving Mary Antoine. net's reputation. Yeah, because she's said, no, I'm not buying it. It's too expensive. I'm not buying it. Fiscal prudence. Exactly. I'll take ships instead.

And she has been defrauded. I mean, Jean de Lamotte is the original romance scammer. So all those, you know, people, you know, all those people who contact you saying, well, I think Brad Pitt went around asking people for money. You know, you got hundreds of thousands of pounds and people. So Brad Pitt and George Clooney and Elon Musk apparently, I'm sure in about, a few years time, I'll fall prey to them and send George Clooney lots and lots of gift cards. But all these romance scammers have their ancestor in the, perhaps the biggest romance scammer

of all, who doesn't just get some gift cards and, I don't know, your retirement fund. She gets 1.5 million lever of necklace. She's done very well. She gets all of this. And there is a trial. Jean is branded, found guilty, and branded with a V for volleurs for thief. So she's put on trial. and found guilty.

But still, it's a massive scandal against Marie Antoinette. Because, you know, Rohan is acquitted and this sort of suggests that maybe him thinking that he could have met Mary Antoinette in the gardens of Versailles

might be possible. And that's the poor old sex worker Nicole Oliver, she just thought it was, I think, she thought it was a sort of game that she was employed for. She's let off, poor woman. But, you know,

initially, there's not a huge conversation about the diamond necklace, but it is going to explode much later. And one of the jokes that is played upon is that bijou is slang for female genitals. So there is this joke that Marie Antoinette is sexually lascivious, and she's fiscally lascivious. So throwing her bijou around. And sometimes I wonder, Cardinal Roham, were you that, were you that naive? Did you really, were you in on the plot? Did you think you were going to get some diamonds as well?

Because he does destroy his correspondence, a lot of it before the, investigators get there. I mean, we will never know, but there is one big consequence of this. And when the story gets out in the midst of a lot of anger against Marianne Twinnett because of rising prices, when John herself escapes prison, she comes to London, publishes her memoir, says she was a lover of Marianne Twennett. And of course, the British think this is marvellous. Lap it up. Oh, yes. Give us more about our enemies. Yes, this is splendid. And God knows where all the money goes. And this it becomes this huge drama and Mary Antoinette can't escape it. She cannot escape it. So that is the background against which we are heading into the revolution.

Because that's the 1780. We're in mid-1780s. So we're very close. There's an Icelandic volcano that goes off. French harvest completely destroyed. All of France's problems get a lot worse. And then late 1780s, the rubber hits the road. Storming the Bastille, government, you know, they have no more money. It's all chaos. Storming the Bastille The King is told while he's in bed That the Bastille has been stormed Big castle in Paris

Stormed by the people Full of omissions And King asks Oh, is it a revolt And the Duke who tells him this Says no sire It's a revolution It is a revolution

We have the real And what happened before this Was that the king Actually called a meeting Of the Estates General Which hadn't met Since 1614 So a sort of parliament

A sort of parliament. We have the aristocracy, we have the clergy, and it was decided that the third estate would also meet as well, the poor, very large, lower working class, including the middle class as well, that they all should be represented. But the King and Marie Antoinette, their son is dying during this. So they aren't really very present. And this isn't seen as understandable. And really from this, you see the big movement of the aristocracy who don't want to pay any land taxes, any property taxes. I mean, some aristocrat. I think genuinely do believe in freedom. Some just don't want to pay any more tax. And the rise of the third estate, the rise of the third estate, who become this very powerful grouping. And when they want to meet, they can't meet, so they meet in a tennis court in Versailles. So the rise of these political voices of the people,

of all the sections of the people. And increasingly, the king and Marie Antoinette seem at odds to them. We're going to pause right there, but there's more coming up after this. Kate Williams, what happens next? The big moment. Big moment. Early October, we see the women's march on Versailles. The women head, the market women, increasingly, you know, a huge group of women. Parisian market women who are angry at the price of bread, you know, thousands, head towards Versailles. And here, they are initially, just of calmed a little by the king. making promises, but in the evening it really surges once more, and they come into Versailles,

and this is the moment when the royal family, well, that is the end of them and Versailles. They are then taken to the Twileries, and they are pretty much from then prisoners. So they're physically taken out of Versailles and taken to Paris, the Twileries Palace in the heart of Paris. I just don't understand this. They meant to have the biggest army in the world. like what's going, they're going to have the biggest, most effective army in Europe. Why is there a crowd control issue at Versailles at this point? What's going on? The king and queen have the Swiss guard, but they are overpowered. And also the king, he sees himself as the father of his subject. He doesn't want to shoot lots of women. He does not want to.

I mean, pretty wise. But he wants to be the kindly father. And he really feels, I am booked by God. I am here. And if I am nice and speak gently, then, I will be appreciated. And Marie Antoinette is so much more hated than the king. She doesn't want to sleep with him in the same room in case he is, you know, he is attacked. And a stake is driven through her bed. She is the one that garners all the hate. He is really forgiven.

And I think that's because, yes, he's chosen by God. That's the principle. But there is, I think, the majority of people at this point, what they want is a constitutional monarchy, what we would see at a constitutional monarchy. I would say probably 95, 96% of the country want Louis to be a figurehead. Not unlike Britain. Spend less money.

A sort of Swedish model. Spend less money, be a figurehead and really accept that role. That's what they want. And Louis believes he can write it again. He believes he can come back. So they head to the Tweedleries. So they're taken from Versailles.

So the women have marched into Versailles. The queen's bed has been torn apart. Wow. barely anything can be taken and the royal family are then taken to the Tweedler is and they are now under house arrest. A rather lovely house arrest. They have freedom to walk around. They can go to church services, have visitors, have quite a lot of visitors, but they are now under house arrest. And the king is ineptly attempting to restore his position, play politics. There's discussion. The constitutions are issued with the king.

as a head of state but not all powerful. There's a period of upheaval. This is a period of endless negotiations, endless upheaval, and it sort of battles within the powerful people in Paris as to what this new state, what this new country is going to look like. What is the rights of man? What is it? And, but generally, the royals are in a reasonable position. Yeah, it's still reasonably friendly. It's a political wrangle, but we're not pitchforks and firebrands at the moment. And then they make the fatal error. Oh, yes.

They make the fatal error of trying to escape in summer 1791. Why do they try and escape Paris? They probably are aiming to get over the border. Just get the heck out of France. Get the heck out of France. Be protected. Plenty of other royals fled in 1789. Plenty of the royals and aristocrats fled in 1789 and got over the border.

and escaped. And what are they trying to do? Are they just trying, as they say, to go to a different part of France and really show themselves as the wonderful king and queen of France and there create a lot of loyalty? Well, maybe so, because certainly the further you get from Paris, the more generally royalist it is. So that is true. But either way, they are completely acting against the modern government. So what they're doing is almost traitorous, whether they're trying to get to a loyal part of France or whether they're actually trying to get to Austria, either way they're going up against the government.

And this is a real problem. Because the king is pretending to be negotiating good faith. The government is saying, yeah, sure, I'll be one of your constitutional monarchs and we can work together, that's fine. And now he's just dashed out of Paris, perhaps to go and work with the enemies of France. With the Austrian, with the enemy, because yes, their enemies now. So with the enemy is what he's doing. Now, the whole idea of escaping, I think, could have been possible.

It could have worked, but the entire execution is a disaster. It's a disaster. The first disaster, I'd say, is the fact that they go in this rather large traveling to Baruch, you mean, a rather large carriage because we have to be dignified. And they think as, well, you know, when, you know, the very famous go around incognito and everyone recognizes them, they think, oh, you know, I'll just maybe drive a smaller rolls for you. So no one, no, it's me. They really think that they make themselves look much humbler.

But it's pretty interesting. The other problem I would say is that there isn't with them a military man who knows how to command and think on his feet in what is going to be of a complicated operation. The queen is there and the royal governess is there and the king's sister is there. So it is the king, some women, some children and the king, some children. and the king, as we've talked about, he's a bit like Fotherington Thomas in Molesworth, isn't he? But hello clouds, hello, trees. He's not going to take command in a military operation.

So it's all got a lot of issues to start with. And then they're late. They are late to the first post. Each post, they're going to get more horses and carry on going and the military escort. It's all been planned. The whole thing's been planned. And there's a chap called the Duke de Choiselle,

who is known for being, a little bit panicky, a little bit panicky. He's on the first post, which is a great idea, isn't it? So he decides when they haven't arrived, bang on time, he says, it's not happened. The whole thing's not happened. Oh my goodness. Everyone stand down, stand down, guys. Let's go, let's go to bed. Let's go to bed. Stand down. And so when the first rider gets there, there's no, there's no men, there's no horses. And this really begins the disaster. And then they, then they try and find horses, and they're looking for horses. And they try and carry on. And there's an overturned furniture wagon and everything that could go wrong does go wrong. So within 24 hours, they are

captured. They've been spotted. They are captured. And they're put in the house of the procurator, Monsieur Sauce. Now, at this moment, they are surrounded by the villagers, but at this moment, perhaps they could have escaped. And perhaps they could have escaped and got out. But Louis doesn't command. And in fact, there are commands that if the king was taken prisoner, you know, it should be fought to take him, the military men should fight and get him out. But, you know, they doesn't. And they stay in the house of the procurator, Mosisorce.

And, you know, then Mariantoinette tries to delay their leaving just in case some people are coming to save them. And actually, people do come to save them by the time they arrive. It is too late. And they are being escorted back to Paris. And on this journey, it is horrendous. us because people turn their backs on them. They watch them in silence. They turn their backs on them. And that attempt, that flight to Varenne, that attempt to escape, I think is the big turning point in this whole

story. Because after this, the idea that, as you say, Dan, the idea that we could have this constitutional monarchy and the king was agreeing to it and it would all work out and we could put him on the throne and he could just do a bit of smiling and waving and the rest of the time could be much more equal. That's over. It's now war between the assembly, the convention, and the king and queen. So they're back in Paris. The back in Paris. Are they now on a closer? Close arrest. Marri Antoinette's hair turns white overnight. She's only in her 30s. It turns white in the entire moment of the horror of this flight. And now things are going to become very severe. So in 1792 they are moved to the prison, the temple in the Marais, the tower.

They are moved there and their associates are really in danger now. So the Princess Delambelle, who was a great friend of Marie Antoinette, who's actually the sister-in-law of the Duke de Orleans, who's very instrumental in the whole aristocracy uprising of the French Revolution. She is beloved by Mary Antoinette. Oh, I feel so sorry for her, because she actually did manage to do. get out of France and then she comes back because she feels so sorry for Marianne Winette and she's basically executed pretty swiftly. Now at this point it isn't really as brutal as it gets

to be later. Some of the executioners and the guards let the women go because they just think they're just women but they can't let her go. She's been in every caricature. She's all these images. She's Marie Antoinette's lesbian lover, another profligate, excessive woman. She's hated by all the aristocrats because she got all the party invitations. And when she's executed, what they do, the mob, the crowd, is they get her head and they put it on a pike. The Princess to Lambale is very pretty. So they take her to a hairdresser. Have her hair all done in the ringlets, so it just looks like it would do at court. And then they take this head and they wave it all along the street. And then they get to where Marie Antoinette is imprisoned in the temple in the

Mary, and they wave it, they wave it outside her window. And what condition are they being kept in? They're still together as a family? They're still together as a family. It's, you know, they can play cards. It's not total imprisonment yet, but the end is nigh. I mean, they have to know that. And they can, they know now that their friends are being executed. And, you know, Mary Antoinette is so hated. So no one wants to wave ahead outside the temple tower for the king. They want to do it for the queen because even though the whole point of a queen, a whole point of a woman is she can never have the throne in France. It's the Salic law.

You can never have the throne. She is just a consort, but still she is hated so much more than the king. And yes, she had some political power. Yes, she may have given information to the Austrians. Yes, she did have influence over ministers what they did or they didn't do, who was in charge and who was not. but overall she's a consort and she is the one who's hated. It is misogyny.

It is anti-Austrian propaganda. But most of all, she, I think, is the easy target of the revolution. And the revolution is going to be a world of equality for men and liberty, egalite, fraternity for men. And so it's the queen who's got to be sacrificed. We're going to take a quick break here, folks, but there is plenty more coming up after this. Yes, she's the perfect

foil, isn't she? She's a simple, every movement like that needs great stories and you've got this foreign, spendthrift, sexually deviant queen that's ruining... She's chasing, yeah. Yeah, and so of course,

she's the perfect foil, I suppose. The revolution descends in this kind of spiral of radicalism. The king, so that's August 79 to 2, within six months he'll be killed. The king, there's a general. trial. His lawyers is given the evidence. He's put on trial. And there was a vote. There's a vote about the convention takes a vote on whether or not he should be killed. And it's passed by six votes. So that's a slim, slim majority, but it is passed. And so it is the democratic decision that the

king will be executed. The king is also given time to prepare before he is executed. He's given time to pray. And my internet says to the king, we'll come and talk and be. be together the night before you die. And the king doesn't want that. The king manages to escape. He doesn't want, I think, to be imposed upon the queen, that that's what's going to happen. So the king goes to his execution and he's executed in front of everyone. And the king's been executed.

Well, you might think, there we are. Job done. The king's executed. There's no more monarchy. There's a son, but he's a child. And the king's brothers, but yeah, they've gone. They're abroad. They've gone. Yeah, they've whizzed off. So surely job done. Matter is done. And the revolution can now continue. The son's being reeducated now. So the son is taken and given to a cobbler and he's being reeducated. And then the big question comes, what do we do with the Queen? Because there's a long discussion. Should we send her to Austria in sort of a hostage exchange? All the rest of the aristocrats are in Austria. So there were plenty of people to hang out with there. What can we do?

do with her. I mean, she has no political power. But this is all-night meeting. This is all-night meeting about this politician-journalist. He said, I have promised the people, the head of Marie Antoinette, and I'll cut it off myself if you don't give it to them. And he also says, if we don't give them Marie Antoinette's head, they'll take ours. So she's now going to be this sacrifice to appease the crowd, this vision that the politicians who are now in control have, that yes, they've killed the king, but that's not enough. They've got to kill the queen. And that's what the crowd really, really wants. So, Marie Antoinette must be put on trial for treason, collaborating with Austria, pushing the king ETC. But in the middle of the trial is brought up that she committed

incest with her son, that she corrupted the heir to the throne. And at this, Marantuanette is devastated. She says, in an appeal to the other. others, you know, I wouldn't do this. And actually a lot of the women in the room are sympathetic. And I think almost that's a problem for the committee, because I think, goodness me, when the Queen speaks, it's not good. She's quite convincing. Yeah, she's quite convincing. So he probably really do need to get rid of her. And there isn't a vote. There isn't an actual democratic vote on whether or not to behead her as the consequence of the trial. You know, I mean, yes, you might say she has no political role,

so she doesn't need a vote. But at the same point, this is the queen we are executing. And it has simply decided that she's going to be executed. She expected life imprisonment, but execution is what she's going to get and they want to execute her very, very fast. And she's put, and she's been transferred to the conciergerie

under very cruel restrictions. Guards watch her all the time. She has this devoted maid, Rosalie Lamoyer, who looks after her, tries to, shield her when she's getting dressed because the guards are trying to watch. You know, she tries to let her in the corner and stand so no one can see. And on the morning of her execution, Rosalie begs her to have some broth. She really wants her to have some broth.

And I think Mariantoinette just does it because she wants to please Rosalie. And everything's been taken from her. And what I find so striking is that the king went to his execution in a carriage. Marie Antoinette goes in an open car. She is the real enemy of France, even though she could never, ever be on the throne. And the history of queenship, we see an awful lot of women who were consorts, then popping up and taking the throne for themselves, including Catherine the Great. Absolutely. She was an iconic figure of, oh, well, oh, bye-bye, husband.

Oh, it's me, heavens. My internet couldn't do that. But yet she is the ultimate enemy. She's public enemy, number one. Her hands are bound together, and she's jeered. she's laughed at and she gets up onto the scaffold and she steps on the executioner's foot by mistake and she says excuse me monsieur I did not mean to do it

and those are her last words the queen is beheaded she's executed her head falls to the ground and then she's thrown into a communal grave so we don't know where she is but when Madame Tisaud sets up her wildly successful wax model museum that head of Marion Twinnett

that she sculpted just after the Queen's execution that would be pride of place I went to the Vatican Archives once and I saw the last thing she had a little scrap of paper she wrote to the Pope one of the last things she did didn't she asked him

yeah it's an amazing thing one of the treasures of the Vatican Archives extraordinary they had to kill prison 280 Kate Williams that was so interesting and fantastic if people want to know more about it they can read your book My new book Regina is out

The History of Queen A smash hit history of queen's What happens to Queens? They get satirized by everyone from caricaturists to medieval chronicler. So you think of the history of Queens, they're attacked for vanity and spendthrift and disgraceful nature, pulling the king from his true aims from the medieval chroniclers from Erdog Aquitaine, right up to the paparazzi photographs now and Marianne Winette and that battle that she has to try and control her image, which fails in every way because what everyone wants is the spendthrift. disgraceful, shocking queen.

And it's she who has to die for the revolution to be truly born. I, you sent me a copy of that book pre-publication. I could not put it down. Well done, Kate. Congratulations on getting it published. Kate, with that was amazing. If you want to see more episodes like that, make sure you like and subscribe and follow in all the things. Hit the buttons, folks. See you next time.

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