Dan Snow's History Hit - The Secret History of the SBS

Episode Date: August 30, 2021

The SBS was formed out of the Commandos during the Second World War to help counter Nazi domination of Europe. This small unit made up of regulars as well as maverick volunteers took on some of the most dangerous missions of the Second World War. Most famously Operation Frankton, where a small team who became known as the 'Cockleshell Heroes' attacked Axis shipping in Bordeaux harbour. But perhaps their biggest contribution to the war effort came in the run-up to D-Day where SBS reconnoitred the landing beaches in Normandy bringing back vital information that helped shape Operation Overlord and undoubtedly save many lives. Saul David is the author of SBS - Silent Warriors: The Authorised Wartime History and had exclusive access to the SBS archives. He talks to Dan about how the unit came into operation, the oversized role they played in the war effort and the audacious missions the men of the SBS undertook during the war.

Hi everyone, welcome to Dan's Notes History. I'm very excited about today's episode. We've got an exclusive here. We are helping Saul David, one of our favourite historians, he's launching his new book. It's a hell of an achievement. This is the official history of the SBS, the Special Boat Service. During the Second World War, Winston Churchill set up commando units, units designed to fight unconventional warfare, to come to terms with the reality of German domination of the continent, but to launch strikes, raids, to set Europe ablaze. And the SBS was a key part of that. You're going to hear some extraordinary stories coming up in this podcast. Saul David has been given access to the SBS archives. He was interviewed. They checked if he was the right

kind of chap, and he was, obviously. We're now lucky to be the first audio radio podcast show to have him on to help him launch his wonderful book, which is out next week. I've been lucky enough to meet many of the veterans that he's talked about this book. I've been lucky enough to go to many of the sites, and it is truly, truly a remarkable, remarkable story of what these people achieved during the Second World War. Did they change the course of the war? Listen and find out. If you want to listen to other podcasts with Saul David, or you want to watch any documentaries about World War II special operations, the place you can do that is on History Hit TV.

You just go over to historyhit.tv. There you've got all our audio, all our videos, the world's best history channel. It's like Netflix, only for history. You're going to absolutely love it. Head over to historyhit.tv, become a subscriber. It only costs about the same as a really smart cappuccino once a month. There it goes. You won't even notice it. And you get the world's best history channel. And if you subscribe now, you get 30 days for free, so you can check it out. See if you like it. In the meantime, everyone, here is the very brilliant Saul David talking about the SBS. Saul David, thanks very much for coming back on the show. Delighted to be here, Dan. Thank you for inviting me.

You were one of the last human beings with whom I had a pint before the lockdown. Remember that? We went and talked about your wonderful book on Okinawa, and then we went for a beer and we thought, I wonder what happened to this COVID thing, and two weeks later... No masks. We were within about six inches of each other at one point, chatting away, having a good time. I know, weird, weird. Shouting in your face, screaming about some sort of obscure Pacific war strategy, I'm sure.

Yeah, busy pubs. It was weird, wasn't it? But we're slowly, slowly, slowly getting back there, aren't we? I hope. We are slowly getting back there, but you've been busy in lockdown because I've been messing about talking to people on the internet, shouting at myself. You've been writing gigantic official histories of amazing special forces units.

Briefly, tell me what the SBS was, the idea behind its foundation. Well, it came about really as an offshoot of the army commandos, which is a reasonably well-known story, I think, about the Second World War. Churchill backs against the wall. What are we going to do to hit back? I've got a great idea. We'll create this massive force of raiders and we'll launch it against the coast of Europe, which of course was then pretty much German hell by June 1940. But one of these commandos, really interesting character called Jumbo Courtney, who had been a canoeist himself, so he knew that canoes would be really useful for potential special operations. Low profile, very quiet, you could get in almost silently to an

enemy coastline. But of course, you can't take many people in a canoe. So it was a completely different mindset. Instead of these big raiders going in, firing a lot of weapons and making a lot of noise, instead you had the idea that you could go in silently and commit deeds without the enemy knowing about it and get away again. So it was really a question of whether he could provide proof of concept. And if he could, what sort of force were they going to allow him to create? And that's the genesis. And we're talking autumn 1940. It's really interesting, this proliferation of special operations, Second World War. I can't work out sometimes, but it's actually

a sign of britain's weakness initially it's like well we're not going to put 100 divisions into the field in northern france we're not going to fight it out like we did against louis the 14th and napoleon and the kaiser yet in the fields so we're going to do all this kind of sneaky beaky weird stuff but then also there's a technology thing isn't there because now there are these new platforms and weapon systems and collapsible kayaks and mini submarines. There is a tech aspect to this, isn't there? Yeah, for sure. I mean, you're right with the initial observation. I mean, Churchill was looking for a way to hit back, which he could do relatively cheaply. That would, in a way, make a lot of noise in the sense that there would be a PR coup from it.

The real question was, how much damage could these special operations units actually do? And that's still the debate that's ongoing today. And we know, Dan, don't we, that in recent years, there's been a discussion in the British and American militaries that actually, do we really need these big conventional forces? Can we do a lot of the job using special forces with technology? So these arguments come full circle. It's very interesting. And the question, really, I had to ask myself in the book is how much difference

these guys actually make. My feeling, particularly the SBS, that is the waterborne special operations guys, actually did make a big material difference, which I'm sure we'll discuss in a moment. But it's a viable question to always ask that. Can they replace conventional forces? Yeah, let's come on to the kind of your opinion on just how important it was. But I want to ask you about how exciting it must have been to go and get, you know, permission. And you have to have a blazer and have a port. And did they like to cut you a jib and they let you into the archives? How did all that go?

Yeah, it was very much an interview I had to pass. If I think back now, it's almost three years ago, two and a half years ago, I was invited to the Special Forces Club inevitably to meet someone who I didn't really know who I was meeting. I mean, he didn't really explain who he was. There was a kind of faint MOD whiff about him. He claimed to be something to do with the disclosure unit, which I'm sure you've had dealings with, Dan, in the sense that they are the gatekeepers of anything to do with the Special Operations, Special Forces. They are the gatekeepers of anything to do with the special operations, special forces. And from that initial conversation, which really just a question to get to know me,

asked me about would I be vaguely interested in taking the topic on? And then I had to produce a proposal and I had to go to, I mean, really, I might as well be a member of one of those special operations units now because I had to jump through a lot of hoops. But it was intriguing to get to know them, to get to kind of know their modus operandi, to really get a little bit of a sense of who they were. And one of the interesting things about the current SBS, the Special Boat Service as it's now known, is that you can see that they still have the same sort of ethos that they had in the Second World War. Unshowy, problem solvers, but not big thugs. They like to put brain before brawn. Still the same sort of guys today. And

the problem with all of that is that they don't really like boasting about what they've done. But if no one boasts about what they've done, we'll never hear their story and the history will disappear. And obviously, as historians, we would both agree that's a shame. And I also feel sometimes credit where it's due. The SAS, of course, because we do know a lot more about them, a lot more has been written about them, really have taken the lion's share of the claudates for anything that's happened by the Special Forces, probably in the last 30 or 40 years. And of course, the reality is that the SBS have played very much a prominent role too. So I think this is a chance for the unit, as it's known, as opposed to the regiment, to begin to say, actually, we exist. They can't say that formally,

but we exist, and this is what we did in the Second World War, and we're the same guys today. Were there things that you weren't allowed to talk about that are still considered too raw, or things that betray standard operational procedures that they still use, things that are still fieldcraft and things like that today? I mean, it's fascinating, actually, and I wouldn't be giving anything away, I'm sure, to say that they still use the canoes today, the Kleppers, as they are known. The last time they were used in operations, again, I'm on relatively thin ice by admitting this, was probably only about 10 years ago. But that is the low-tech end of what they do, Dan, as you know, and they've got some pretty impressive kit, which obviously I can't talk about. But what is striking about the Second World War is that the basic idea of what

they do and how they do it hasn't really changed. And I think they were very keen to get that across. So to answer your question more specifically, nothing to do with the operations of the Second World War was off-limits. I could talk about any of that information and I was given as much as they had. And there's a fair amount that has gradually come out in the National Archives too. So anything beyond that, anything beyond 1948 is strictly off limits as far as the Special Forces are concerned more generally. I think there's a feeling among some of them, both retired and still serving, that actually that's too strict and we need to know more about what they've done more recently. And there is some hint that the shackles will be released before too long, but it hasn't happened

yet. I hope it does, because I think, yes, of course, for the last 20 or 30 years, you have to be a little bit cautious about what you're talking about. But before that, there are some amazing stories that unless they're told at some point in the next 20 or 30 years, certainly in relation to the people who were involved in them, Dan, as you know, they won't be there anymore. I mean, we're pretty much at the end of the Second World War veteran. So we're going to talk about the Korean War. And there's some interesting stuff there. And of course, going on to the 60s and 70s, where there's a lot of interesting stuff in relation to the SBS, we need someone to be either interviewing them, or at least the accounts to be taken down. So you know,

I hope that does happen soon. When the SBS was founded as a branch of Commandos, were they former regulars? Were these professionals, lifetime soldiers and sailors and Marines? Or were these people coming in from outside, just wartime servicemen who were able to think that a little bit differently, bring some sort of weird skills, bring some mad sailing and boating game to it? What kind of people are joining the SBS? I mean, it's a real mixed bag, actually. It's a very good question. Jumbo Courtney is a classic example of the latter group. He was an amateur. He only joined up, of course, because the war started. He joined the territories in the 20s and came from a reasonably well-to-do family, public school, but he had a longing to travel.

I mean, he's a sort of classic imperial character, really, frankly. Went out to the farthest reaches of empire, in this case, to Africa to make his name, make his fortune, as it were. Didn't do terribly well there, but he learned how to survive. He learned a lot of useful skills that he was going to use. And he learned how to canoe, as I hinted in my earlier answer. And he actually carried out really an astonishing feat, which is to traverse the whole length of the White Nile on his own in a canoe. I mean, you know, we're talking thousands of miles, a lot of dodgy moments. So on the one hand, you've got this kind of almost dreamer like that, who approached it very much from, it was his idea that you could use canoes for these purposes, because he had a lot of experience of them. And on the other hand,

the other two key players in the story, both of whom create separate special operations units, which together are considered to be the three forefathers of the modern SBS. Two regulars, a man called Wilmot. Now, Wilmot was a Royal Navy regular, a navigator, and it was his idea to really start beach reconnaissance. He felt that there will be a lot of amphibious operations in the Second World War, of course, because we've got to get back to mainland Europe and we're going to have to invade at

some point. And what we need is to gather beach intelligence. And this has never really been done before. His uncle had been involved in the Gallipoli landings. And I think partly as a result of that and the disaster that that had become, and also his own personal experience of Narvik, he felt that he needed to create a unit that could do that. And interestingly, he meets Courtney, and it's Courtney's canoeists that give him the idea for creating a new unit that goes on to do really extraordinary things in the Second World War, and that was known as COP,

the Combined Operations Pilotage Parties. And people often ask about all these names, these acronyms in the Second World War. I mean, most of them, to be honest, Dan, were just to smudge the lines, really, to obscure what they really did. So their names don't really mean anything. But COP really did extraordinary things. And then the third of these three giants was Blondie Hasler, who was a Royal Marine regular and had served in the 1930s. He was very much a boating expert, unlike Wilmot. I mean, Wilmot, big ships, navigator, he knew about navigation, which was terribly important when they were trying to get to the right place at the right time. But Blondie Haslett, who created the Cockle Shell Heroes, as we know them today, really canoeists whose job was to destroy ships in harbour.

He also came from a slightly separate perspective. So you've got two regulars and one amateur. And I think that's probably a reasonably good example of the sort of characters who joined the SBS as it later became Special Boat Section, Coppice and Coggle Shell Heroes. Now we've talked all about special operations and commando raids. For those people not blessed to spend much time in shallow draft boating operations around the coasts of Europe, just give me a sense of exactly what they're doing. Because I was doing a podcast on Spanish Armada the other day, and it's where Philip of Spain airily said to his Armada, you sail up the Atlantic coast, meet up with the Duke of Parma and cross to England. Now,

meeting up with the Duke of Parma, that amphibious operation is mind-blowingly complicated, right? You've got to make your way through shallows, adverse conditions. The big boats that need you in the Atlantic don't then work in the close quarters, shallow waters of the Channel Coast. You need to get on and off them. You need to anchor them, stop them, hide them. The liminal space between naval operations and land operations is really hard, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, incredibly so. I think what's interesting about the Maritime Special Operations guys is that they were a combination of all the different armed forces, apart from the Royal Air Force. So you had naval experts, you had Royal Marines, and you had Army commandos. And they all brought a separate type of knowledge. The COPIS were particularly interesting.

I mentioned before Wilmot's group, because they wanted to gather information that would enable amphibious operations to take place. But they realised they didn't just need beach gradient information, depths, tidal, all that sort of information, which is really the job of the Navy. They also needed the so-called military information of the beaches themselves, how firm they were, the exits and the defences. And this, of course, becomes particularly relevant when we talk about D-Day and what the SBS did in relation to D-Day. One of the relatively unknown stories of the Second World War, I mean, totally mystifying to me that it's not a better known story, Dan. And I can only explain that by the fact that the SBS doesn't like shouting about its achievements, maybe until now. But yeah, you're absolutely

right. So many things can go wrong with amphibious operations that this was the reason why Wilmot, Nigel Wilmot is his full name, felt that you needed as much information in advance to reduce the possibility of disaster happening. The Americans, by the way, did something similar. They had their own maritime special forces, but never as sophisticated and never, in my view, as effective. They used them at the latter stages of the Pacific War in particular, but really for beach clearance, removing obstacles rather than gathering all that absolutely vital information. I've written and I'm writing about the Pacific War at the moment. It's amazing how often the Americans land at the place they really don't have that much brilliant information about. And it's why, of course,

there are some setbacks along the way. They're learning as brilliant information about. And it's why, of course, there are some setbacks along the way. They're learning as they go along. And the American military is brilliant at learning on the job. But the idea that someone would have this brilliant idea in 1940, 1941, actually, we're going to need this information. Let's create a unit that's actually going to gather it, even before it's really obvious that it's required, I think is astonishing. So these three characters from very different backgrounds, all very different men, Wilmot's a details person, you know, he's really, really wants to get everything down to the last nut and bolt. Courtney, on the other hand,

is a big picture character, an improviser, you know, which probably explains the difference between him being an amateur and Wilmot and Hasler being regulars. There are so many operations we could talk about. There's the attempt on Rommel's life that I thought was amazing. There's obviously the so-called Cocker Show Heroes, which they made a film out of, perhaps that's the best known episode in the war. Should we talk about the D-Day thing though? Because that is so amazing and so surprising. It's shocking to me, as I said, that it's not better known. And not because there aren't new stories to tell occasionally about D-Day. Of course there are. That's the whole point about history.

As we know, Dan, there's always something new to say, even about really well-known episodes. But that there should be an episode that was as significant as this in terms of influencing the success or failure of D-Day, I think it's astonishing it's not better known. And it happened in a number of different stages. That's the other thing. They didn't just do their job and then let the operation take place. There were lots and lots of bits and pieces that they had to do in the lead up, months before D-Day itself. Any one of which, if they'd gone wrong, they'd given the game away. They might seriously have questioned whether or not they should have continued with the D-Day

operation. And again, these little moments, some people hate talking about the uncertainty of history, why go down the track when it could have been different. I know that you're somebody who's very interested in the counterfactual, Dan, as am I. You can take it too far. But when you look at the possibility that even as late as Christmas 1943, if one of these special operations missions had gone wrong, it would have massively affected the success or failure of D-Day. I think that's worth talking about. So even those early operations alone are worth considering. And of course, ultimately, you get the operation that leads in D-Day.

And the proof of the pudding, as I'm sure we'll discuss in a moment, is what the Brits did on their beaches, the Americans don't do on their beaches. And I really think that makes a difference to the cost of those two landings. You're listening to Dan Snow's History. We're talking about the SBS. More after this. Hello. If you're enjoying this podcast, then I know you're going to be fascinated by the new episodes of the history hit warfare podcast. From the polionic battles and cold war confrontations to the normandy landings and 9-11 we reveal new perspectives on how war has shaped and changed our modern world i'm your host james rogers and each week twice a week i team up with fellow historians military veterans journalists and experts from around the world to bring you inspiring leaders if the crossroads had fallen, then what Napoleon would

have achieved is he would have severed the communications between the Allied force and the Prussian force, and there wouldn't have been a Waterloo. It would have been as simple as that. Revolutionary technologies. By the time the weapons were tested, there was this perception of great risk and great fear during the arms race that meant that these countries disregarded these communities' health and well-being to pursue nuclear weapons instead. And war-defining strategies. It's as though the world is incapable of finding a moderate, light presence. It always wants to either swamp the place in trillion-dollar wars, or it wants to have nothing at all to do with it.

And in relation to a country like Afghanistan, both approaches are catastrophic. Join us on the History Hit Warfare podcast, where we're on the front line of military history. Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in renaissance florence each week on echoes of history we uncover the epic stories that inspire assassin's creed we're stepping into feudal japan in our special series chasing shadows

where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive but to conquer whether you're preparing for assassin's creed shadows or fascinated by history and great stories listen to echoes of history a ubisoft podcast brought to you by history hits there are new episodes every week. Let's break it down a little bit, if that's all right, Saul. I learned from your book and I've been to Submarine Museum in Portsmouth and been lucky enough to meet a couple of those veterans back in the day when they were more mobile. They're going onto the occupied coast of France in mini submarines in the months leading up to D-Day and doing proper recce.

They're going ashore. They are going ashore in occupied Europe. Yeah, I mean, it's amazing, isn't it, to think that the first Allied soldiers ashore on D-Day went ashore six months earlier. So they actually go ashore on the-Day went ashore six months earlier. So they actually go ashore on the night of New Year's Eve. So New Year's Eve, New Year's Day, there is an operation to land two swimmers, two coppice, to land them on the beach. Actually, it was the intersection between the then Canadian and British beach. As I hope some of the listeners know, the original plan is to land on three beaches, Dan. And one of the reasons they move from three to five is the information these guys bring back. Now they're sent on this particular operation because the Allied planners are beginning to think, hold on a

second, the beaches may not actually be firm enough to take all the armour, all the equipment we need to send across them. And of course, if they aren't and all this stuff starts sinking in the mud, the landings are going to be a disaster. So they must know that the beaches are firm enough. And the only way they can get that information, they try all kinds of other things, aerial photographs, low level flying and looking at the geological data. But the only way they can be certain is by sending guys ashore, two guys to swim ashore. And think of the day. This is midwinter when the sea is absolutely freezing. think of the day this is midwinter when the sea is absolutely freezing and the other important point to remember about the channel coast is that it's very difficult for proper submarines to operate there now the modus operandi for the sbs through most of the second world war is to be

landed from big submarines that can get you nice and tight into coastlines works very well in the med where there's no tide and where you've got relatively deep waters. But on the coastline of the Channel Coast, where it shells very quickly and the weather, of course, is very, very changeable and you've got tides, you can't use big subs. So you've only got two options. You either use a midget sub, we'll come on to those in a second, or you go in with motor torpedo boats and landing craft, which is what they did on this operation. So many disasters were waiting to happen to this operation. The guys could have drowned, they could have been bumped by sentries on the coast, which they almost were. And as I said, if one of them is discovered, they even drop some of their equipment down, which they're really nervous about afterwards. And the feeling

is, well, one of the daggers that they're carrying is dropped in the sea. And the feeling is it's just sunk into the water and the Germans won't spot it. But of course, if they realised that people were coming ashore there to get the sort of information they were looking for, it would have flagged up the possibility of Normandy. And we know that Normandy, one of the big reasons why it was successful, there were a number of factors, of course, was because the Germans weren't expecting them to come there. We had fooled them into thinking that the Pas-de-Calais was the most likely place. So Americans all the way through this were very nervous about sending these special operations groups in. But the British, who were in overall charge of Operation Neptune, which of course is the naval component of Overlord, were

determined to get this information. So they overrode the initial American objections and sent these two guys ashore. And they came back with the information that, yes, the beaches were indeed firm enough. And they also brought back a information that, yes, the beaches were indeed firm enough. And they also brought back a lot of information about the fences that are along the coastline. Now, I know there's another six months to go so the fences can change. But interestingly enough, when they did the same thing at Omaha a month later, they were already able to spot the key elements of the defences on Omaha that would, of course, cause such carnage on the 6th of June itself. But then when they go back, the mini-sub bits, talk to me about that. I mean, these are

mini-submarines, and they're doing multiple trips ashore from them, aren't they, as a kind of mothership? I mean, it's incredible to think about. The point about the mini-sub, 50 feet long, okay, and that's its total length. Its actual interior length is 35 feet. So you've got a tiny space built for a crew of three, actually originally designed to carry out operations against German capital ships. And of course, they're originally used, Dan, in the attempt to sink the Tirpitz up in the Norwegian fjords. And they have some success. Two Victoria Crosses are awarded to the captains of these craft in their attempt, and they do badly damage Tirpitz, but they then adapt them for special operations units. So all of a sudden,

the SBS have to learn how to operate them. I mean, not entirely operate them, but how to be useful on them, how to get in and out of them. Incredibly complicated operation, which they could do underwater. Ideally, you do on the surface at night, then swim ashore in very hazardous waters with the danger that your suit is going to water log at any time. Number of SPS drown as a result of this. Some of the stories we don't know absolutely for certain, of course, because they didn't live to tell the tale. But we know that the early kit in 42, 43 was very poor and it took years before it got anything like sophisticated enough for you to be able to rely on the kit. But if the kit gets snagged and it gets cut through, you'll drown.

And these same two guys who go ashore on New Year's Eve 1943, New Year's Day 1944, the same people who go on the beach at Omaha. And when they come back from that operation, having carried out multiple, as you say, swims ashore, incredibly dangerous, they bring back so much detailed information that they are able to give a full briefing to all the key planners involved and all the key generals involved and admirals involved in Overlord. And in particular, of course, Bradley, who's going to be leading the American forces at Omaha and Utah, and tell Bradley it's going to be a hell of an arse to actually go ashore on Omaha because of what we've already seen. And of course, it can only become a tougher

nut to crack. And it's this early warning that should have flagged up to the Americans what they were going to face. Now, of course, it's one thing knowing the defences that are there. It's another thing avoiding them. Well, the plan was ultimately to distribute the troops along the beach so that they're not going to be attacking all the really strongly guarded strong points at once. And that's not, unfortunately, what happens on the day itself. Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt, and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that

inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. So they were sleeping all day, soaking wet on these submarines on the bottom, sort of half asphyxiating themselves and then doing the same the next night.

Yeah, conditions were brutal on these things because, of course, by day you have to submerge and they weren't submerging in very deep waters, actually. It's only about 20 or 30 feet where they're submerged. So a really eagle-eyed German sentry could still have spotted them. And there were a couple of moments where they got this very thin periscope, as you can imagine, like the thickness of a walking stick, it was described. And they're using that to observe the beach by day when they're not, of course, swimming ashore at night. And they're getting a certain amount of information that way. And at one point, apparently a German sentry is firing

the periscope. He can see something there. He doesn't know what it is. He thinks it's a kind of stick in the water or something. And this spooks them and they then move. But the conditions lying on the seabed by day, when of course they have to stay submerged, are terrible because they're surviving on oxygen. The oxygen supplies are limited. They're getting increasingly drowsy. You're feeling pretty sick by the end of the day. And there's always, always, always the threat that someone's going to bump you and the chances of evasion once those midget subs have been spotted so close into the shore are virtually nil. So it's that fear and that uncomfortable nature of what they had to do. And on top of all of that, the danger of swimming into the shore really makes these guys, in my

view, some of the boldest of the war. They're not involved in massive firefights in which it's all gung-ho stuff. No one wins the VC who's a member of the SBS, but I think some of them deserved the ultimate award for what they went through. That sort of cold-blooded courage, Dan, in my view, is more impressive than some of the hot-blooded feats we know about in the Second World War. And then on D-Day itself, they act as waypointers. Yeah, it's an amazing story. The story of D-Day itself, they act as way pointers. Yeah, it's an amazing story. The story of D-Day itself, the midget subs, two of them are detailed for duty on D-Day. And their job is really to mark the outer limits of the British and Canadian beaches.

And you may ask yourself the question, well, why don't the Americans get the subs too? Well, it seems that they were flagged up, their services were offered, and they were turned down by the Americans because of the danger that they're going to give the game away. Now, the consequences, in my view, were very serious. This, of course, is a matter of debate, which as historians, it's our duty to ask these sorts of questions. But I'm pretty convinced in my own mind that they made a material

difference to the Brits and the Canadians in their beaches, and the lack of them particularly affected the Americans on Omaha. So why was that? Well, just to talk a little bit about the mission itself, Operation Neptune, as it was known, these two subs go over, they leave on the night of the 2nd of June, and their job is to make their way across, takes a long time to get all the way across, then lie on the seabed for the 4th, come up during the night of the 4th, and they're ready for D-Day on the 5th. Now, of course, as we know, D-Day was originally scheduled for the 5th and it's postponed by bad weather. So can you imagine

having endured this horror show of the first two and a half days? They then get the bad news that the operation's been postponed and they've got to survive another 24 hours. Meanwhile, they're running out of oxygen, the danger of being discovered. I mean, it's just a horrific experience for them all. But stoically, they stayed down there on the seabed and popped up on the morning of the 6th, just before daylight, started putting signals up on the rigging. And these signals are the guide in the landing craft. And as I've already suggested, this is vitally important because on a coastline like Normandy, with a really strong tidal set, which can move boats an awful long way, particularly when the landing craft were due to be launched, as they were 12 miles off the coast, a lot can go wrong between the launching of them by the big ships and them actually getting to the beach. And in the case of Omaha, it was crucial they went to the right place because the defences were the most formidable of all the beaches. Now, that's not to say it was a piece of cake on the British and Canadian beaches,

but it is to say that they were slightly more formidable on Omaha. So whereas the Canadians and the Brits were landed almost in every case in the right place and properly spread out, on Omaha, they were sent by the tide and pushed by the tide. If you look at a map of the plan for Omaha and the actual result of where all the landing craft land on Omaha, Dan, you can see very clearly the consequences of not using these markers because not knowing where they were going, they just landed on the coast where they could. And they were all bunched together, particularly in front of Colville, at a point where the defences were their most formidable. They were disorientated,

didn't really know where they were. Units were all mixed up together. And of course, it's not the only reason. There was a bloodbath on Omaha, but it played a really significant part. And it's a bit of the story that, in my view, has been missed off most history books talking about why Omaha was as costly as it was. And I think one of the key explanations is this inability to land at the right place on the beach. It's the old amphibious motto, go where the enemy aren't. Having looked at these archives and being the first historian really to do so, what was the greatest contribution that these units, these men made to the course of the Second World War?

Was it Normandy, or was it the perhaps more famous so-called cockleshell hero, Operation Frankton? Having looked at it all, were there any surprises? There were, actually. I knew about Frankton, of course, as do most of us. I mean, anyone who's genuinely interested in the Second World War, probably the one maritime special operations unit operation that we know about is Frankton, the Cocker Shell Heroes. D-Day probably was the most significant of their contributions. But the bit that really surprised me, actually, Dan, was after D-Day. So it's what happened in the Far East between the summer of 1944 and the end of the war. And it's a story that's almost gone unnoticed. And actually, of the documents in the SBS archives down in Poole,

that was the bit of the story that they were able to fill in the gap with the most amount of detail. Now, in some ways, of course, it's after the Lord Mayor's show. There's this kind of feeling after D-Day, you know, the war's winding down. But the point I tried to make when I was writing Crucible of Hell, a story of the Battle of Okinawa in the Pacific, is that really, of course, the war did end when it ended, but there was no guarantee that it would. And there was very much a feeling that the war in the Pacific is going to go on for an extra couple of years. So what they

do after D-Day is they basically put together the cream of the Maritime Special Operations Units, and they send them out to Ceylon, where they're based. And the reason they go out there at that time, actually, interesting enough, is because Dickie Mountbatten, who's now the Supreme Commander in the Far East, the Southeast Asia Command, had been the former Chief of Combined Operations. And therefore, he knew all about these guys and what they could do. So he created what was called the Small Operations Group. And this was really an amalgam of all the units I'm talking about, the Royal Marines, the SBS, the Special Boat Section that came out of the Army Commanders, about, the Royal Marines, the SBS, the special boat section that came out of the army commandos and also the COPIS. And he grouped them all together. And actually,

if you want to look at the forefathers to the modern SBS at the end of the Second World War, it's these guys. And what they did out there, again, a lot of those stories are virtually unknown. Some of the operations they carry out, both close in support for bigger operations, bigger commander operations, but also carrying out these beach reconnaissance for what would have been big landing operations in Malaya, for example, Operation Zipper. They're sent in ahead of Operation Zipper. And a lot of these stories aren't well known at all, probably because the Second World War ended earlier than it was expected. And therefore, the significance of the amphibious operations in the Far East were much less than they would have been. And there's no question they would

have been used for the invasion of Japan, which of course, almost certainly would have taken place, as we've known for a long time, in the autumn of 1945 and the spring of 1946, but for the use of the atomic weapons. Let's quickly talk about Operation Frankton. It's been the source of some debates about whether it was worth the losses and all that kind of stuff. Just briefly tell us, of course, what they were aiming for as they paddled down the Gironde towards Bordeaux. It is the single most extraordinary operation of the war. The COPIS contribution to D-Day, as I've already pointed out, happened in a number of stages. But there's no question that Frankton was the toughest and most unlikely to be successful operation of the

war. It was virtually a suicide operation. And so it proved, unfortunately. And the plan, in a nutshell, Dan, was to land six pairs of canoeists off the Gironde estuary, and then for them to paddle at night, lying up by day, through 60 miles of enemy territory, basically, down the Gironde or the Garonne, all the way to Bordeaux, where they are going to sink these fast transport ships that can outrun most of the British naval forces that we've got against them, that can outrun them. And they are delivering, they're moving vital materials between Axis ports, in particular between Japan and the German forces in the west of France. Incredibly bold operation, which honestly,

if I'd been sent that plan and been said, do you think there's any chance of success? I would have said no. And the planners felt the same way too, because Mountbatten, when he saw it, thought, well, it might be worth launching, but there's no way Hasler's going on this operation. Hasler, of course, who had created the Cockle Shell Heroes, because he's not going to come back. And therefore, there's no way we're going to authorise it. Well, Hasler insists, he argues, using, interestingly enough, people like Courtney, and also the creator of the SAS, Sterling, as his examples. You can't ask your boys to do stuff you're not prepared to do yourself, particularly for the first big mission. So he's given permission to go in there. He's in one of the six pairs of canoeists. And so tough is this operation that even after literally a matter

of hours, they've lost half their force. So two guys never get off the submarine because they damaged their canoe as they're bringing it out of the submarine. Another four capsize in the very strong tidal races that there are before you even get into the Gironde Estuary. And then another pair is lost on its way up the Gironde Estuary. So out of that original group of six, only two pairs get all the way to Bordeaux, where they lay their limpet mines against five ships. And they successfully heavily damaged those ships. I mean, they're not completely sunk, but they're holed below the waterline, and they're taken out of action for a while. Now, the question ever since has always been, was the operation worth it? In my view, it was actually, because I think even without the material damage, and there was

significant material damage done, even without that, it really shook the Germans. If you think about it, we're not talking about half a brigade. Some of these bigger operations, the commander operations, descending in 500 to 1,000 men. This is six pairs of canoeists and only four actually get all the way up the Gironde Estuary. And they do this sort of damage. I mean, the consequence of that was that the Germans were on high alert. They were diverting troops to coastal defence. It had an effect out of all on high alert. They were diverting troops to coastal defence. It had an effect out of all proportion to its actual specific damage. Psychologically, the Germans must have known we aren't safe anywhere if these guys can do what they did. So I do think it was worth it. And I

think it was a great example of the ingenuity, frankly, and the determination of these guys. Did they pay the price? Yes, they did. Because of those 12 who were going to set out and the 10 who do actually set out, eight of them do not come back. They lose their lives. Two drown and six are executed by the Germans after they've been captured. And this, of course, was shortly in the wake of Hitler's infamous commando order, which is anyone on special operations is to be shot out of hand. You know, I'm paraphrasing, of course, Dan, but that's pretty much the effect of the order. And they paid with their lives. And the only two to get back are Hasler and his redoubtable paddler, Bill Sparks, this wonderful young cockney. I mean, really one

of the great characters of the Second World War, completely uneducated, but a terrific soldier, brave as a lion. And they get back mainly because Hasler's able to speak French and they're able to find their way through enemy territory to meet the resistance. And they get back mainly because Hazard is able to speak French and they're able to find their way through enemy territory to meet the resistance. And then finally back to Britain via Spain. We've touched on it there, Saul. Let's finish up talking about consequences. In Britain, we celebrate and we laud these special operations and these little raids, or these big raids like dam busters and stuff. We're very much in the tradition of Churchill, aren't we? We're kind of more fascinated in a way by the pinprick attacks,

by the moments of drama than we am by the giant meat grinder that was Operation Epsom or the fighting at Goodwood that followed D-Day, which kind of broke the German army in the West. Do you think, though, that these guys did have a profound impact on the course of the war? I do, actually. Did they win the war? No, they absolutely did not. I mean, I reviewed recently a book about Pathfinder. It's a very

good book, actually, by Will Ireton. I don't know if you're having a chat with him. He's been on the pod. He's been on the pod. Loved his book. It makes the claim it changed the course of the war. In some ways it did. So to make the claim a group of men, you know, a group of specialists can change the course of the war, I don't think it's over-egging it, actually. Some people don't like that because it makes it seem that they won the war. It's a very different claim. It's without these guys and without their effect, all these little things add up, is the truth of the matter, Dan. And I'm not saying that you can absolutely guarantee D-Day wouldn't have succeeded without the contribution made by the SBS. But it is a contribution that was significant. It deserves to be recognised. And yes, you can argue from the start in 1940 to the end in 1945, what this tiny

group of men did, the effect of what they did was out of all proportion to their numbers, to the resources that were devoted to them in terms of money, effort and training, and that it genuinely did make a difference. So, of course, lots of other factors have to come into play as to why we won the war. But I'm particularly, I suppose, exercised by the idea that people who do make a contribution, it's nice if it's recognised, it's nice if it's acknowledged, even after all these years, someone who takes part in some of these operations, who's really gone under the radar all those years. Finally, these guys get their due. So that's really the satisfaction, I suppose, for working

on a book like this, is feeling, of course, it's your book, but it's not about me. It's about what other people have done. And one of the reasons why the Second World War is such an extraordinary war of enduring fascination is that even when, you know, I've also been reading and reviewing Richard Overy's forthcoming Blood and Ruins. And although he's incredibly fair about who did what and when they did it and the hypocrisy, it wasn't as simple as good versus evil. But even he struggles to say that the Western allies didn't have a reasonable cause. And we were up against some very, very dark and dangerous and evil regimes. And so the Second World War will continue to fasten out,

I think, until we have another conflict that trumps it. And of course, that's very unlikely to happen. Fingers crossed, Saul. Thank you very much indeed. Your wonderful book is called? SBS Silent Warriors. It's fantastic, everyone. Go and get yourself a copy.

Good luck with it, Saul. Cheers, Dan. I feel the hand of history upon our shoulders. silent warriors it's fantastic everyone go and get yourself a copy good luck with it's all cheers dan thanks folks we've reached the end of our episode hope you're still awake appreciate your loyalty sticking through to the end if you fancied doing us a favor here at history hit i would be incredibly grateful if you would go and wherever you get these pods give it a rating five stars or its equivalent a review would be great please head over there and do that it really does make a huge difference it's one of the funny things the algorithm loves to take into account so please head over there, do that. Really, really appreciate it. you