Dan Snow's History Hit - The Shadow King: Henry VI

Episode Date: May 21, 2020

Henry VI came to the throne in exceptionally difficult circumstances. The untimely death of his warlike father, Henry V, placed the crown upon his head aged just 9 months. While England was in the ascendant in the Hundred Years' War in 1422, by the time he came of age his father's French conquests were disintegrating and the English nobility were locked in a dangerous struggle for power. In 1453, Henry suffered a complete mental collapse from which he never fully recovered, and then was used as a chess piece in the bloody Wars of the Roses which swept the country for the next 30 years. Lauren Johnson talks to Dan about the fascinating reign of Henry VI.Subscribe to History Hit and you'll get access to hundreds of history documentaries, as well as every single episode of this podcast from the beginning (400 extra episodes). We're running live podcasts on Zoom, we've got weekly quizzes where you can win prizes, and exclusive subscriber only articles. It's the ultimate history package. Just go to historyhit.tv to subscribe. Use code 'pod1' at checkout for your first month free and the following month for just £/€/$1.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History at the 22nd of May, 1455. It's a day that marks the start of the Wars of the Roses. On that day, at the Battle of St Albans, the first Battle of St Albans, the houses of Lancaster and York clashed. Richard, Duke of York and his allies, Warwick, Neville, Salisbury, managed to defeat a royal army led by the Duke of Somerset, who was killed. King Henry VI was captured. It was the start of a tumultuous period of English history. Now, a few years ago, I was very, very rude about Henry VI.

And Lauren Johnson, excellent historian, called me out and said, I'm not allowed to get away with that. So I immediately invited her on the pod. We talked about analytics, and it was absolutely fascinating. She put me right on every count. This podcast went out about a year and a half ago, but we're going to repeat it now because we're showing on History Hit TV, our documentary on the War of the Roses today. And so we're relaunching this podcast as a result. It's a really good one if you haven't heard it. You can go to History Hit TV, by the way, and use the code pod1, P-O-D-1, and you get a month for free. And then you get the next month for just one pound euro or dollar. It's like Netflix for history. It's got hundreds of history documentaries on

there. We've had another big drop of documentaries just gone on there. So please go and check it out. We're making new content all the time you also get to come on to a zoom call where you hear these podcasts being recorded live in these lockdown conditions i was with caleb mcdaniel this week rutger bregman the week before and next week make sure you sign up to this subscribers of history hit tv will get to listen to me talking to kate lister about the history of sex in quarantine it's going going to be an interesting one. X-rated, that one, everyone. So no under-16s, please. In the meantime,

here is the excellent Lauren Johnson on Henry VI. Lauren, thank you very much for coming to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Now, I have to have you because I was so rude about the subject of your studies at the moment, Henry VI, who I've always said is the biggest Muppet in the history of the world but you rightly about a million of

my whole mentions exploded you pointed out this is a man who is suffering from mental illness and I shouldn't be so rude about him and you're quite right so you're here on the podcast to tell me off what what tell me about Henry VI what was going on I mean he he had a difficult patrimony didn't he poor man dad died I mean tell me about his birth and his circumstance to that yeah just the bare bones of his story gives you an idea of the problems he was dealing with. He's the youngest monarch in English history. He comes to the throne aged nine months, inheriting England from his father, Henry V of Battle of Agincourt fame. So quite a shadow looming over him. And then within a couple of months, he also inherits the Kingdom of France

from his granddad. So he is a king baby ruling two territories. Through his mother, yeah. Yeah, ruling two territories which are at war with each other throughout his childhood. And then he also has various family members causing trouble as he's growing up. He eventually loses the Hundred Years' War, has a problem with one of his kinsmen, Richard, Duke of York, that leads to the Wars of the Roses. And in the midst of this, he suffers a mental collapse, effectively, we might say today a psychotic break, to be honest. And exactly what this is is still argued about to this day.

And some people have suggested it's inherited schizophrenia from his grandfather on his mother's side, from the King of France. I don't agree with that at all. I think it's just the fact that he had such a stressful life. This range of challenges he faced was too much. Well, because before his breakdown, well, we'll get there, but before his breakdown, he was clearly unsuited to the role. Oh, yeah, there is no denying.

Nature and nurture in combination make him just not a good medieval king. I think he'd be quite a good modern king. He's very friendly, he's very generous, he likes his wife, he seems to like his child as far as we can tell. He never cheats on his wife even. Can you imagine? Like a medieval king who doesn't have mistresses. It's astonishing. He's a patron of learning, all of these positive things. But ultimately what he does not have is that steel core that you need as a medieval. Unlike his granddad in the fourth, his dad in the fifth, his cousin in the fifth. I mean, yeah, a tough century. And his uncles, man.

Those guys were hardcore. Okay, so, but it is the great sort of turning, one of the great turning points of English and French history for the first and only time, well, obviously the English kings claimed to be kings of France until George III, but really this was the only time, well, obviously the English kings claimed to be kings of France until George III, but really this was the only time those two crowns were united, which is sort of astonishing. But is your sense that, it's a big question, but was that always going to break down? Maybe if it had been Henry V, like an exceptional ruler, but really were these two nations so distinct, it would have been quite out of a trans-maritime empire. I think even if Henry V had been in

charge, he would have had to change his policy. He couldn't go on as he was, being that authoritarian and being essentially an occupying power. That's what the English are in France. And even in Henry V's lifetime, he's facing a challenge from his wife's younger brother, who calls himself Charles VII, who gets Joan of Arc on side, who motivates the French army to really push back. So Henry V would have faced that as well. It's just slightly unfortunate that the person facing it is a 10-year-old in King Henry VI. So let's talk about Henry VI. Does he ever meet his dad? No, he doesn't even see him. Henry V has already gone back to France by the time he's born. Henry V has a brutal, wasting death of dysentery, I think, isn't it?

Yes, he has, yeah. This tiny little corpse is brought back, it's a terrible story. At the end of probably the greatest warrior king in English history. Yeah, I think him and Edward I could probably bash each other in the head for the title. I've got an early medievalist saying Athelstan in my ear, but it's okay. So, totally remarkable man. This son then grows up who are the most important figures his mom is very powerful mom or is it his crazy uncles no sadly

it's not his mom that would have been brilliant because uh we all love a strong queen what she seems to put her energy more into actually is having a life of her own she goes off and uh has an affair with the duke of somerset for a little bit. Then she remarries someone called Owen Tudor, who is probably her own servant, through whom we get the Tudor dynasty ultimately. But she is more focused on having her own life and fair play to her. So Henry VI is dominated by these uncles, the surviving relatives of Henry V, who all have different ambitions and ideas of what the kingship should be, of how the war in France should be fought, how England should be ruled. And they spend a lot of time arguing about

it, sometimes violently, in front of Henry. So you can imagine it's just this constant conflict as he's growing up. It is not a healthy environment, really, for a child. It's so fascinating because you look at William the Conqueror, his guardian, in effect, he was killed in his bed chamber, in a bed next to William, and he was almost killed. And yet the effect it had on William the Conqueror was just turned him into this sort of man of steel. And of course, poor Henry VI just had the opposite effect. Yeah, and I think it is nature and nurture. I think what's interesting with Henry VI is he's clearly always quite a sensitive individual, quite a kind-hearted, let's just say soft person. And I

think the big impact that his upbringing has on him is he has an idea of kingship that is based on books and not ever on actually seeing anyone do the job. He never sees someone ruling in practice and understands what it means. So his idea is, oh, well, it says in my books and people tell me, my tutors tell me that I need to be accessible to my nobleman. I need to take their counsel. So he believes he needs to delegate power. I need to be religious and charitable. So he gives too much away. He spends too much on Eton and King's College, Cambridge that he found. He thinks he needs to be generous in patronage. So again, he just says yes to everyone. So it's all of these ideas of what a good king should be gone horribly wrong.

Meanwhile, he's got his uncles like Bedford who are just, he said, yeah, I imagine those council meetings would have been pretty grim. So what are we able to say at what point? Was he ever able to sort of take the reins of power? Yes, yeah, he definitely did. And this is one of the areas where I think Henry VI has been hard done by. Because there's an idea that he was always a puppet ruler, that he never actually had ideas of his own, authority of his own. And it's very clear, I think, when he eventually takes power for himself, when he's

around about 18, he immediately starts pursuing a peace policy with France. He starts, I mean, he doesn't make great decisions, but he's making them for the right reason. He releases Charles Duke of Orléans, who's a French prisoner of war, who's been in England for 25 years since the Battle of Agincourt, because Henry says, well, that's the right thing to do. And he believes that that will forward the French peace process. And he does various other things in terms of gambling, bargaining chips that turn out not to be great. He also very specifically says, I'm founding Eton College to serve as a memorial to the fact that I've now taken adult power. So I think he comes to power and he immediately says, I'm going to be a different

king. I'm going to be a peacemaker. I'm going to be an educator, very much in the style of Saxon kings, actually. So Edward the Confessor, very sort of chaste king. Edmund, same thing. And Alfred the Great, who we remember as being this warrior in the 15th century, they thought of as a very bookish, learned individual. That's what he was remembered as. So I think Henry is casting himself as those things. I mean, if you look back through English kings for a role model and you choose Edward the Confessor,

there's something wrong with you, dude. There's something wrong with you. Too much time at Westminster. There you go, Westminster Abbey, all those monks. That's a true good point. So remind me, is Bedford his uncle still basically in charge of French policy or has he died by that point? Effectively what happens when Henry comes to the throne

is his uncle John, Duke of Bedford, is Regent of France and just ploughing away trying to deal with that situation and I think is very capably doing so. Very capable. It's very hard. And then in England, serving as protector, is another uncle, Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester, who as far as I'm concerned is very capably doing so. Very capable. It's very hard. And then in England, serving as protector is another Uncle Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester, who, as far as I'm concerned, is a massive idiot.

Yes, I'm not a Gloucester fan. And as I say, their conflict is part of the whole issue. But Bedford dies in 1435. So Henry is only 12, actually, at that point. And it's Gloucester who goes on to dominate Henry, who is probably the one who first sort of says, hey, Henry, why don't you try and take power for yourself? That seems like a good idea, doesn't it? If you have power, then, you know, I can help you. But Gloucester is so much of that

old guard of the warrior nobility that he thinks essentially the way to win the war with France is just to keep fighting, just keep ploughing men and money into it, even when it's obviously not working. And Henry says, no, that's a waste of life, effectively. He can't stand it. And so the two of them were always on a collision course because of their completely different ideas of how the war with France should be ended. And Henry was right about the war with France.

I mean, it was an unimaginable quagmire, just sitting in front of castles. Literally a century of war, multiple generations of families being churned over there. And Henry writes in 1440, when he releases Orléans, he says that more people have been killed in that century of conflict than were then living in England and in France. That's, like, the scale of death that he is envisaging.

Whether that's true or not, obviously, is questionable. And it's fascinating because we think of the First World War as this unique tragedy. But, I mean, if you look at the siege operations, the illness, just hacking out siege tunnels and things in mud, those campaigns would have been as brutal as anything, really. Yeah, and the effect on the people of France. The English feel it a bit less because they're removed from it. But in France, it's terrible.

There's descriptions from someone called the Bourgeois of Paris. Oh, yeah. He writes a journal. He's fascinating. He's the one who's very rude about the coronation. Oh, he's rude about everything, really. Yeah. But he's not keen on Henry VI's coronation. And he's describing, you know, he'll go, oh, well, there's lots of caterpillars this year and the flowers came out early. And also there was a huge massacre outside the gates of Paris and all the harvest was burnt. So it's just such a factor of daily life for the people of Paris and across France. That's what's playing out. It's just too awful.

And while we're on the subject of Notre Dame recently, the tragedy there, we should talk about the fact that Henry VI was actually crowned King of France in Notre Dame. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. Absolutely. When he was 10 years old. And he is the only monarch ever to be crowned in England and in France, although it was a bit of a palaver. The Parisian coronation, the city of Paris welcomes their little child king in, they give him all sorts of elaborate pageantry and images of mermaids swimming in wine and things like that. and then the English take control of the coronation and essentially just annoy every single Frenchman who is there.

They don't follow protocol. They go around stealing chalices. I mean, it's an absolute mess. The food was bad, apparently. Well, of course it was. It was the English. Yeah, exactly. Now, let's talk about something there that's important.

We think everyone's speaking French. Henry VI had a French mum. Henry, I'm going to get this wrong now. Edward III's mum was French. Edward III married... Who did Edward III marry? Philip of Avano, I think. Yeah, OK, let's do that.

Edward III's wife was French. So lots of French blood. Aristocrats still owning land both sides of the Channel. Is there that kind of Anglo-Norman thing? Or have England and France now really separated out? There is definitely still an Anglo-French thing going on. So there's a lot of English nobility who do still hold land in France. And monastic houses and things. Yes, yeah, absolutely. All of that is still there. And Henry

certainly speaks French, because we know that some of the diplomatic negotiations with him there happen in French. And in fact, on one occasion, I think he insists that they have to be in French as a sign of sort of friendship to the French ambassadors. But Henry V, they start using court documents in English, I think, don't they? I think so, yeah. Okay, so it's time to transition, but you're talking about English and French. Was there a real sense, you know, people like this, the bourgeois of Paris, you know, these chroniclers, were the English foreigners at this time? Or was there a kinship for the same language, same religion, same, often the aristocratic families, you know, land and DNA that comes from both sides of the channel? I think it's become a bit of an issue by this point because the English have become effectively occupiers.

And what Henry V does to Normandy, for instance, is not great. He goes over there and he takes the city of Rouen, the capital of Normandy, by starving it into submission for six months until corpses are lying in the street. And I think the memory of that causes real problems over the next decades, because, you know, it's hard for the Rouen citizens to feel particularly welcoming to their overlords when they have that memory within their oral tradition, even if not actually having lived through it by the time of Henry VI. So since the time of King John, when King John lost Normandy, the two nations you think have separated out? I think so. The one area where there is still very much a kinship

is Gascony down in the south of France, where there has been lots of intermarriage. Trade is hugely important, trade from Gascony into England. And that's, I think, the reason that it holds on for so long. Gascony holds out much longer than Normandy does, in part because it has a native English population and there's a Gascon population in England. There's intermarriage between them.

I think there's much more of a sense of loyalty because there has never been a severing of the ties, as it were, with England. Until 1453. Ah, the Battle of what's it called? Castillon. That's a sad day. Ah, the battle of what's it called? Castillon. That's a sad day. Okay, so

it's a sad day if you believe, like I do, that the Anglo-French kingdom would have been the most awesome thing ever. Imagine a beautiful kingdom running from the shore from Carlisle to Cannes. Well, Henry II managed it. Henry II kind of managed it.

That's why I get angry on Twitter and it, but Henry VI, you know, that's why I get angry on Twitter and you write, but Henry VI could have welded that. You know, if he'd been Henry II, if he'd been Edward III, he could have welded this magnificent, we could all just be living in Fringland now. It'd be the best thing ever.

So we're tossed out on this little island. Anyway, so, okay, so the war starts to go badly. Joan of Arc, Siege of Orléans, general English war weariness and lack of cash. As the tide turns strongly against Henry, does that actually sort of bolster his position because it's clear the war's going really badly and we need out?

Or does he become less popular because he's an unsuccessful war leader? Land a Viking longship on island shores. scramble over the dunes of ancient egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in renaissance florence each week on echoes of history we uncover the epic stories that inspire assassin's creed we're stepping into feudal japan in our special series chasing shadows where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive We'll see you next time. There are new episodes every week. to go, oh, well, we're the victors of Agincourt, we're the victors of Verneuil, we've won all these battles, it'll be fine. If the French fight us back, then everything will be okay. Living on past glories. Absolutely. Yes, a sort of pompous sense of their own self-importance. Imagine that, if you will. So therefore, there isn't so much investment in the French war. There isn't,

or in fact, even on French peacemaking. So that is a real part of the problem. And there's no denying that there just isn't any money left. At one point, Henry's treasurer has to come to Parliament and say, listen, we just don't have enough money. We can't fight the war on this many fronts. You have to choose which is it going to be Normandy or Gascony. And Henry being Henry is like, I'll go for the middle. I know, let's send someone who has been in prison in France for 17 years, who has no proven track record of military victory. This is John Beaufort, Earl and then Duke of Somerset.

Send him, he'll probably deal with the problem. He doesn't, so that exacerbates the problem. So eventually by the 1440s, when Henry has been, he started to rule for himself, I think there does start to be a turning against him, a sense that, well, look at the Dauphin, Charles VII of France. Look at how good he is at leading an army. Henry VI, by comparison, well, he can't help but, you know, pale into insignificance.

He's not being a warrior king, but he can't be because he is the Lancastrian dynasty by that point. There is him, there's his uncle Gloucester, who has no legitimate children, and that is it for the House of Lancaster. So if Henry goes to war and risks his own life and is killed, or like his father, dies of a tummy bug as a result of being near a battlefield, then that's it.

That will be worse for England in the long run. So he can't be what his father, who had three brothers and a number of uncles, was. He just can't. He isn't able to do that. Okay, so even if he wanted to be a battle of command, he can. He does successfully have a child, though. Yes, eventually. And the fact that it takes so long is another part of his problem. In 1445, he marries Margaret of Anjou, a French princess who then is only 15, who comes to England. It's sort of written about that she arrives in England with this ambitious plan to effectively, you know, hand back France or something, which is not the case at all. She arrives in England incredibly unwell, quite nervous, I think, and just immediately starts parroting whatever Henry says. It's really Henry who is causing these problems by this point.

But in their marriage, they don't have children for eight years. And as far as we know, there isn't even a suggestion of pregnancy in that time, which starts to then affect her popularity. There's all sorts of peculiar rumours about Henry's advisers interfering in the bedchamber. Are they trying to keep the king from the queen? Are they going into the chamber with the queen? Like, what is going on here? And that all further undermines Henry and of course by extension Margaret. So it's really become a bit of a mess by the time in 1453 finally Margaret of Anjou

is revealed to be pregnant at last at which point Henry suffers a complete mental collapse and the child is born in the midst of that. Well, I can actually relate to that. Okay, so yes, it's very odd timing, isn't it? It's fascinating that he, yeah. Okay, but as that's going on, the French are extinguishing the last flames of English rule in northwest France and soon even in southwest France. Yeah, Normandy is lost in 1450 and then Gascony in 1453. And why just quickly why is the army that was so dominant at Agincourt with its longbowmen and it's

just militarily what is it just lack of cash lack of lack of bodies lack of lack of investment it really is the fact that Rouen is handed over pretty much without a fight it's because the person in charge is the Duke of Somerset at that point, Edmund Beaufort, and he has spent literally years saying to the English parliament, can you please send some more men and money? We cannot fight this. We cannot support the war any longer. So he knows when the French army arrives outside his gate that he can't fight them.

And then the citizens of Rouen turn against him as well. So there's just no winning it by that point. Okay, so then Henry has his breakdown, and then we get into the, as you say, what a life. You've got one of the most disastrous sort of external military conflicts in English history. And then you get the beginning of a civil war. How does that all then begin? So talk to me about his breakdown. We just don't know enough about it, right? What do people tell us about how it manifested itself? There are fairly few sources. I think in part because Margaret of Anjou and the Duke of Somerset, who by that point is back in England, are suppressing

the information. Because by this point, Richard, Duke of York, has emerged on the scene. He comes back to England in 1450 in the midst of the French military collapse and resulting unrest in England. And as a result of that extremely poor timing on his part, I think Henry never quite trusts him. And of course, it's dangerous because York, until Henry has a son, York is effectively the heir to the throne. So Richard, Duke of York, technically has a better claim, right? Yes. So Edward III has many children. He has the Black Prince, he has John of Gaunt and such. The Black Prince has Richard II, who is tossed off the throne by his cousin, Henry IV, John of Gaunt's son. But the York line is descended from... Effectively. So number one is the Black Prince,

number two is York's ancestor. Exactly. And then John of Gaunt is actually lower down. So in fact, the Yorks have a better claim. Yeah, absolutely. They've really been leapfrogged in this usurpation of Richard II. And I don't think anyone entirely forgets that throughout the 15th century. There are a number of... York's line is Mortimer, effectively. There's lots of rebels who turn up calling themselves Mortimer. Trouble, Mortimer, yeah, yeah. Got it. OK, so Richard the York is a cousin, a second cousin. I mean, let's not even... Let's not worry about it, yeah. So he's a cousin, close cousin. Yeah. Got it. Okay, so Richard the York is a cousin, a second cousin. I mean, let's not even.

Let's not worry about it. Let's not even go there. So he's a cousin, close cousin. A kinsman. A kinsman. That's what I always say. A Plantagenet, a kinsman, a descendant of Edward III. So he's eyeing up, wants to be a protector, does he?

He wants to sort of take... Yeah, he wants to be in charge of government, really, by this point. And that is implicitly a threat to Henry's regime. So that is already going on by 1453. And when Henry suffers this mental collapse, York is named protector ultimately, which seems like a sensible idea because as Henry has a child by this point, York's sort of dynastic danger is slightly less. But it means that York is obviously by that point going to cling on to

power as much as he can when Henry eventually recovers after 16 months. And as far as we can tell, has a full recovery. He seems well, he walks, he talks, everything seems all right again, but he doesn't remember anything that's happened during his illness. So as far as he's concerned, York has come in and become protector and no, no, no no that's not how it should be he gets rid of York he brings back York's enemy effectively the Duke of Somerset and starts to build up that kind of Lancastrian court again which is a challenge to York's power. At what stage do we think York thought he would actually take the crown himself? I think not yet I think he is still angling just for control of government. But fairly shortly after this has happened, after he's been ousted from being protector and sort

of pushed out of power, he leads a military campaign effectively to take back control of government in 1455, which leads to the Battle of St Albans. And in this battle... Henry sat under a tree. Ah, well, the first St Albans, he's actually right in the marketplace underneath his royal banner, watching people killed in front of him. Okay, that's right.

And I think that's hugely important because this is within six months of his recovery from this serious episode of mental ill health, of whatever it was. And then he is for the first time in his life at the age of 33 in a battle, which is like twice the age of most of the nobility at that time when they first faced this.

And I think genuinely it was an incredibly traumatising experience for him. The descriptions of injuries that are inflicted, of people's faces being hacked off, noses going missing, of arms being shot through by arrows. Henry himself is injured in the neck probably by an arrow during the course of this battle and dragged off to a stinking tanner's shop, essentially to wait out the end of the battle. And after the battle, York takes control of Henry and thus of government. But in that day at St. Albans, one of the last things that happens is that York says, Henry, some of your men are still

running around seeking sanctuary in St. Albans Abbey. Tell them to surrender or I'll kill them in front of you. Now, that is not a great thing to happen at the end of a very stressful day. And I think it really impedes any recovery that Henry has made. I think that is the moment, 1455, when Henry becomes that very passive figure that we remember. From that point on, all he ever does is go, well, let's be friends. He becomes a flesh prop with the crown on and people just move him around a chessboard. Yes, I think so.

And from then on, that is when Margaret of Anjou, Henry's wife, has to start stepping up somewhat for the sake of Henry, but mostly for the sake of their son. Edward is a tragic figure. We'll come to him. Although maybe not. He doesn't sound like a very nice guy. But anyway, so the War of the Roses have started by Dawson Albans. Yeah, I Edward? Yes, yeah. Tragic figure, we'll come to him. Yeah. Although maybe not, he doesn't sound like

a very nice guy. But anyway, so the War of the Roses have started, battles in Albans. Yeah, I'd say so, yeah. Yeah. Well, God,

poor you, having to explain the Hundred Years War and the War of the Roses. But briefly, the House of York, who is Richard of York and the House of Lancaster,

which are the followers of Henry, they fight numerous battles, people change sides, kind of chaos. Run me through the times when Henry is sort of, who's on top? So for the next three years, really, things are just bubbling under the surface.

Margaret of Anjou moves the court up to Coventry to try and just keep control of government there. York assembles this little array of allies around him, Neville lords particularly of the north of England. And everything comes to a head in 1459 when either Margaret is trying to condemn the Yorkists for treason or the Yorkists start arming themselves again. It's not completely clear which happens first, but the long and short of it is there is another battle at Bloorheath.

Then there's further battles that continue throughout 1459 into 1461. The Duke of York is killed during one of those battles. Leaving his heir. Yes. The teenager, unfortunately. Even better version than his dad. Yeah, absolutely. And that, again, is a real problem moment because Edward, Earl of March, who is York's son, is in his late teens. He's good looking. He's tall. He's charismatic. He is not afraid at all to go into battle and risk his own life because he has to, let's be honest, in order to try and take the throne from a crowned king. And by that point, Henry has kind of retreated further and further and further. You can see it just in the battlefield. So at 1455 St Albans, he is in the midst of it. Then at Ludford Bridge, he sort of rides around a bit in armour and then a battle doesn't happen.

At Northampton, he hides in his tent. And then by the time you get to 2nd St Albans, as you mentioned earlier, he is under a tree a mile away from the battlefield. So he's just getting further and further away. Is this a problem for the Lancastrians? I mean, this is an era of charismatic leadership. How do you motivate an army and motivate them on the battlefield if the person you're fighting for is manifestly not cut from the cloth that you might expect a medieval leader to be cut from?

Yeah, I think Henry VI is unique probably in being a medieval king who goes to battle and never actually fights in it as far as we know. It's actually amazing he lasts as long as he does, right? It really is. What do I tell you about the Lancastrian cause? It's actually amazing he lasts as long as he does, right? It really is. What does that tell you about the Lancastrian cause?

I think it's testament in part to the nobility liking Henry. I genuinely think that's part of it. They're not willing to depose him. They're willing to go, all right, after Henry, then York can be king and that will be the change of dynasty. But they're not willing to get rid of Henry himself. So I think they like him. I think also there is a real concern about upsetting things. You know, they've been through so many decades of turbulence already. I think they go, oh, God, what is just going to be

the best way to try and keep things stable? And usually that is to keep the king you've got rubbish as he is. So I think that's really part of it. But you're absolutely right to say that in this period of history in particular, you need a personality effectively at the heart of government and you really need it on a battlefield. By the time we get to March 1461 and the Battle of Towton, which is the decisive battle that wins. Young Edward of York. Yeah, that's when he wins the crown really and manages to depose Henry. Possibly the bloodiest battle on British soil, we're not certain, but potentially similar numbers killed and wounded to the first day of the song. Yeah, 28,000 possibly killed. On a field in Yorkshire.

Yeah, and during it, absolutely horrible battle, lasts all day. Henry isn't even there, he's hiding in York. But Edward IV, let's just call him it, because he's proclaimed himself King Edward IV of York by this point. He manages to motivate effectively an entire Yorkist army. They start to sort of fall back under a Lancastrian advance during this snowstorm beset battlefield. And Edward himself rallies them, as far as we can tell.

He is the one who says, no, I'm fighting among you. I'm going to live and die among you. He brings them back together for long enough that reinforcements can arrive. So it is down to him, really, that that battle is won. Yeah, it's astonishing battlefield leadership almost the greatest example in english history isn't it it's amazing and then so they they the lancastrians escape over a bridge of their own dead across rivers and stuff yes or die under the bridge or die adds to the bridge of their death yeah and and is that that's the end

it looks like that's the end of lancastrian court. Yes, well, this is the slightly bananas thing about Henry VI's story, is just when you think it's over, no, it keeps going. So in 1461, Henry VI loses his throne to Edward IV. He retreats into Scotland. He retreats, his wife, Margaret of Anjou, takes the court to France. Henry spends a few years sort of roaming around the north of England, continuing to rebel. He's eventually captured and imprisoned in the Tower of London.

And in 1470, by which point it's nine years into Edward IV's reign, you really would think it's all over. Bizarrely, Henry VI is restored to the throne because of various machinations. Undoubtedly, because it's changing sides. Yeah, and very much because Margaret has kept fighting for the Lancastrian cause. I think that's hugely important. And Henry is briefly put back on the throne and sort of bimbles about looking fairly sad, wearing blue mourning robes, and I think in a state of absolute depression by that point, no longer caring what he looks like, possibly having retreated into trances and visions,

but we have to be slightly cautious of that claim. And ultimately, within six months, he's murdered in the Tower of London. The Battle of Tewkesbury, right? Yes, the Battle of Tewkesbury. Which is the tragic moment for the House of Lancaster. Yeah, Henry's son, who by this point has spent 17 years effectively

just being trained for this one moment when he'll go into his first battle. He's going to be a different king from Henry. This is Edward IV moment, right? Yeah, exactly. He's going to do it. He's going to be the rallying point. And instead, he gets butchered in the Battle of Tewkesbury. Edward, Prince of Wales, Henry VI's son. The receptacle of all Margaret of Anjou's

hope is killed on the Battle of Tewkesbury. The last Prince of Wales to die in battle in English history. Yes, I think. Just checking my little head. Yeah, so a big moment and Margaret hears he's dead, the game's up. Is that the point at which Edward IV is then able to just... I think so, yeah. I think the only reason Henry stays alive as long as he does is because it's actually worse for the House of Lancaster

to have Henry as its head than to have this young prince who's growing up under Margaret's tutelage becoming much more of a warrior king than Henry ever was. And he'd shown some aptitude. He was quite a warlike person, right? Yeah, there's descriptions of him talking of wanting to cut off heads. Kill prisoners and things. Yeah, exactly.

Okay, so he's now gone. Edward IV, so he feels he's able to just get rid of Henry at that point. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. There's some debate about it. Edward IV insists that Henry dies of sadness. Sure, sure. Yeah, but Henry's body is seen to bleed as it makes its way to its burial place, which I don't think is usually a side effect of sadness, but what do I know? So that's the end of Henry VI. Yeah, well, you'd think, but then he goes on to become a popular saint. He causes 300 miracles. His shrine, his tomb at Windsor becomes a shrine

with a great big cult attached to it. There's all sorts of incredible stories, actually, that is almost my favourite part of his entire life and death story. All sorts of stories of prisoners who've been wrongly imprisoned being rescued by Henry and people invoking his name when they, you know, are choking on something or have a bean in their ear. Why? Do you think he actually did have quite a good reputation? I mean I was in Exeter recently and there's a description of him going to Exeter and the fountains

running with wine. As you say, maybe he was too generous, he was too nice, he was too available. He wasn't just a lunatic thug. No, I don't think so. Yeah, well that's quite unusual for the Middle Ages. Yeah, especially the Plantagenets. I genuinely think there was something about Henry that was likeable. There was something about him that was kind-hearted. And I think after he had died and people could go, well, you know, we don't have to deal with him anymore, that all of those pleasant

memories of him scrubbed out the fact that he had been a rubbish king. I think people just remembered him as that child king, actually, a lot of the time. And the king from the first years of his reign when he was trying to make peace and set up educational places and caring about his subjects. I think that's the memory people keep. And a super popular dad.

I mean, sort of super, should we say popular dad or the extraordinary legacy of his father as well. So there must have been a sort of fondness, I suppose. I think so. But even in Henry V's lifetime, I do think people were aware that, oh, this guy's, you know, a bit ruthless. Straightforward lunatic. Scarred warrior.

Yeah. Well, listen, you've put me right about Henry VI. I will never be rude about him again. I will just maintain that it was a disappointing thing that he came to the throne when he did, because as I say, I think the Anglo-French kingdom would have been nice to live in. So when is your book out? It is out now. Shadow King. Shadow King. The Life and Death of Henry VI, out now from Head of Zeus. Brilliant. And we're going to put that on history.com slash books, which is where you can get all the books that we have on this podcast.

That was a tour de force. And thank you very much. Please come on the podcast again soon. Will do. Thank you for having me. I hope you enjoyed the podcast. Just before you go, a bit of a favour to ask. I totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money, makes sense. But if you could just do me a favour, it's for free.

Go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. If you give it a five-star rating and give it an absolutely glowing review, purge yourself, give it a glowing review. I'd really appreciate that. It's tough weather, the law of the jungle out there

and I need all the fire support I can get. So that will boost it up the charts. It's so tiresome, but if you could do it, I'd be very, very grateful. Thank you.