Dan Snow's History Hit - The Woman Who Flew Spitfires in WW2

Episode Date: July 24, 2021

Mary Ellis was a pioneering and courageous aviator who flew hundreds of fighters and bombers to Britain’s frontline airfields. She was one of the first women to fly Spitfires, heavy bombers and jet aircraft, blazing a trail for female pilots with her passion and skill. Mary sadly passed away aged 101 on this day three years ago, a short time after this interview with Dan was recorded. Hear Mary reminisce on the incredible feats she undertook as a spitfire pilot during World War Two in this fascinating interview from the History Hit archives.

Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. This is an episode from our back catalogue, a classic episode from the archive, and it really is one of my favourite episodes that I have ever, ever recorded. On the 24th of July 2018, Mary Ellis died, age 101. Mary Ellis is one of Britain's most remarkable aviators. She joined the Air Transport Auxiliary in 1941 and was part of a pool of women that delivered aircraft to the battlefront, to the factory for repairs, wherever and whenever they were needed. It was a very dangerous job. She was expected to be current on lots and lots of different aircraft types at the same time.

She flew shorthanded, so without the usual crew that would, for example, fly a bomber. And she did so brilliantly. She developed an extraordinary reputation as an aviator. Over the course of the war, she flew a thousand planes of 76 different types, Hurricane Spitfires, Wellington bombers, etc. She flew them all over the UK, all sorts of different conditions. Regularly, she would land and an all-male team and RAF base simply did not believe that she had piloted that flight. I met her in her home on the Isle of Wight about a week before she died. She was in very good health. It was a terrible surprise when she did

pass away. And I'll never forget one particular moment when my three-year-old son had picked up a Spitfire toy as he left our house. I didn't even know he'd done that. It was in his pocket. And he got this Spitfire out of his pocket at Mary Alice's house and held it out. And she said, oh, a Spitfire. And she leaned down and whispered in his ear and had a little conversation.

I didn't pick up what it was at the time. I think it was about her flying the Spitfire, her memories of the aircraft. She told my little boy a little bit about it. And then she straightened up and continued the interview with me. And she died days later. And I often say to my son now, what did Mary Ellis say to you? And he goes, I don't remember. How lucky for him, age three, he had this extraordinary interaction with this national treasure days before her death, a woman who flew in the Second World War, a woman who was born nearly 100 years

before he was. It's a moment I will always treasure and I hope my son will as well. So here's my conversation with Mary Ellis, a truly remarkable woman, very, very sadly missed, but what a privilege to have met her. This was part of a film programme for History Hit TV. You can actually go and watch this interview in the programme about Mary Ellis's life on History Hit TV, which is my history channel. For a small subscription, you get access to hundreds of hours of history documentaries, both mine, lots of other people's, licensed, new material, all on there. Old favourites and original commissions. And you also get all these episodes of the podcast without the ads as well.

So it's an audio visual extravaganza. So head over there, historyhit.tvtv once you've listened to this to watch the documentary. But in the meantime everyone here is the one and only Mary Ellis. Today I'm off to meet a genuine national treasure, an aviator who served through the Second World War flying Spitfires and other aircraft type through the skies above Britain. This person is 101 years old but remarkably it's not a man but a woman. Mary Ellis, veteran of the war, lives not on the mainland but over there on that island so I've got to get a boat to go and see her. Do you remember where you developed your fascination with aircraft?

I know I was very young and I saw aeroplanes and I thought how lovely I would like to be up in an aeroplane and my father said maybe one day you will be and end of conversation. Did you hear about some of those amazing female aviators who did so much to push the boundaries of aviation in the 1920s? No. So you weren't influenced by them? No. Obviously I was born with the proper genes to take me up in the sky. I've been going up in the sky for a long time. Where did you grow up?

There was an aerodrome not too far from the farm that we had, and so I went to this little aerodrome, which is Whitney. And you just watched the planes? When I was very small, yes. And when did you first climb in one? Well, I was ten or something like that, and I was dying to go in an aeroplane and my pa said yes that I could. And my mother was there and I think my mother decided I should not go. decided I should not go. So, like a little girl, I cried and then my pa said, tomorrow

you will go. I make sure that you can go in an airplane and fly. And what do you remember about that first flight? Oh it was absolutely wonderful. I was so small I was strapped in the cushions all around but I could see out you know. It was an open cockpit. Yes of course there's little else in those days. Of course. There was little else in those days. And so you felt, you must have felt that that was, did you want to spend the rest of your life doing that? No, I didn't think about the rest of my life at all. I just thought everything was lovely and everything was going the way that perhaps I would like. Did you ever come across people who said,

you can't do this because you're a girl, you can't do that because you're a girl? There was no such thing. No one ever thought like that. And when, so tell me about the next flying experience. How did you start to learn to fly and take it more seriously? Because when I was at school, I was not very good at hockey. I was rather small and I didn't play very well. And then it came about that I was allowed to go for a flying lesson instead of playing hockey.

And this was a great delight to me. This really was splendid. Splendid. That's quite a... That school, their own aeroplane, did they at school? No. I went to the Whitney Airfield. And was it clear straight away that you had a natural aptitude for it?

No, I don't think so. No. No. It's just that I wanted to do it so much that I progressed so quickly, so it wasn't very long before I was flying an aeroplane by myself. How old approximately before you were flying by yourself? I think I got my licence when I was 17, or 16, between 16 and 17. And I was given my licence, which was absolutely wizard.

It really was. To think I can go up on my own and look around the skies and the terra firma and all that sort of thing, which only someone in an aeroplane on their own could do at that time. Did it give you a feeling of freedom? Absolutely, yes. That is exactly what it did to me. So then you left school, and how did you keep the flying up once you'd left school? Well, I didn't do very much flying and then the war came and all civil flying was stopped. So I couldn't do any more flying and I thought, this is the end. I'll have to find something else to do.

But I was just interested in animals on the farm, that's all. But you managed to find a way of getting back up in the sky? Yes, because I heard on the radio one day that female pilots were required for the air transport auxiliary. I said to my mother, I think I will apply. And she said, no, I shouldn't if I were you. But I did. And I was accepted. the aviation world because the Air Transport Auxiliary had just started at Hatfield Airfield and they were taking on people like me. Why did your mother not want you to go? Was she worried about your physical safety or

was she worried about your moral safety? I think she just wanted me to be at home with her and go to all her tea parties and her tennis parties and things like that which was not priority in my mind at that time. And did you want to enlist because you wanted to do your bit for the country or you just wanted to get back up in the sky? I wanted to do both but I didn't know then how much one could help the country. But it country but it was a short while afterwards when the air transport auxiliary got underway really that i knew i could fly some military airplanes and therefore help the country and tell me what job was the Air Transport

Auxiliary doing? Why did it exist? The Air Transport Auxiliary existed because aeroplanes were being made like mad at different places all around the country. The aeroplanes were made and they had to be delivered to various squadrons of airfields all around the country. And there were not enough RAF people to be allowed to do this job rather than fight for us. So the ATA, both men and girls were employed to fly aeroplanes from the factories to the squadrons, no matter where they were. Was it always in the UK or did you fly off to Europe as well? It was mostly in the UK at that time. And this must have been a dream come true, you got to fly aircraft all day, every day. You're quite right.

It was splendid. It really was. I never in my wildest dreams thought I would fly military aeroplanes. And as for flying a Spitfire, well, that was something terrific one just dreamed about, but never saw the flying. Go on then, you've talked about the Spitfire. Let's say, what was it like? What was that experience like for you? Oh, to fly the Spitfire was absolutely wonderful because the aeroplane is such a wonderful airplane it really is and it will answer anything you ask it to do immediately I had no instruction on Spitfire at all, but I was flown to a factory at South Marston and there was the Spitfire which was waiting to be taken out and taken to the RAF and it was on this particular day, my delight to be able to do this, because I had never been close to a Spitfire before, let alone getting it.

But I did. And was it a different experience to flying the Hurricane or any of the other single-seaters at that time? Was it noticeably a different aircraft? Yes, it was different from the Hurricane. Yes, it was. It was more ladylike than the Hurricane. And it was so delightful. so delightful. It's almost impossible to describe how wonderful a Spitfire is and how it flies

like a bird. It's so adorable and sometimes there were ones that were painted pale blue which went up in the sky and you could fly way up and see everybody else for miles and miles around. But not forgetting one was on duty and one has a uniform and so one has to respect this. Did you have fun on those deliveries? Did you do a few little aerobatics along the way or were you always flying straight and level doing what you were told? We weren't told not to play about with aeroplanes. I wouldn't say we were always straight and we had to make our own way irrespective of the weather you know the weather was a great hamble at the time. It was difficult. But there you are. There was a war on. Was it dangerous? It was very dangerous. Extremely dangerous since we had no radio or any help from the ground at all.

Once in the aeroplane, you were on your own. So there was no point in me having a helmet because no one would talk to me. So I just had a white scarf and it was lovely. just had a white scarf and it was lovely. And did you, you must have got lost, the weather must have closed in from time to time, it must have been quite difficult navigating that aircraft, those aircrafts. It was very difficult,

but one had to use one's own imagination in the first place. Shall I take off in the first place? And if I do take off, shall I be able to cope? So having taken off, you choose the route wherever. No one to tell you where to go. All you knew, you had to take this aeroplane, be it a fighter or a bomber, to the destination that was on your little clip of paper to say you must deliver this aeroplane at this airfield. When you were up there behind the controls, do you think, I wish they'd let me have a crack at the Germans, I could fly in combat?

Were you angry that you were being restricted? No, no. It was enough, more than enough, to fly three different aeroplanes in the daytime. In the morning, I probably would have to fly three different aeroplanes in the daytime. In the morning I probably would have to fly a Tiger Mast. In the afternoon I would probably have to fly a completely different route in a Wellington Bomber and having delivered that I would be picked up by a taxi aeroplane and the taxi would take me somewhere else and said I would then fly a Spitfire. There's three different aeroplanes all in one day. And they were all completely different.

You're listening to Dan Snow's History. It gives me great, great happiness to bring you this interview from 2018 with Mary Ellis. More after this. Land a Viking longship on island shores. More after this. Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. Did you ever make mistakes in the cockpit and pull the wrong lever

and get tired and have a moment of thinking of thinking go what cockpit am I in here only if you wanted to die no you had to know sufficient not to do things like that there were lots There were a lot of men and also girls that were killed just doing the wrong thing, like flying in bad visibility and they couldn't cope and then they ran into a hill, which was unnecessary because if we went into bad weather we'd turn around and go back. We could go anywhere and land as long as we kept the aeroplane safe. How many types of aeroplanes did you fly during the war? Actually quite a few aeroplanes but it was really only 76 different types of aeroplanes that I flew during the war time. That's quite a lot. Now I know I've got a silly question and I know this is a question but do you have a favourite? Everybody loves a Spitfire. And I flew 403 Spitfires, all different ones, different marks, different makes.

Different places. And now, when you landed, some of the men must have thought it was odd seeing a female pilot. Did they comment on it? Maybe, but they didn't say it loud enough for us girls to hear. So they must have wondered what it was. There was one when I delivered a Wellington and I had gone through dispersal, you know, where it was wanted. Because I followed the little van which had Follow Me on the back, so I followed it around the airfield. I came to the design place and I switched everything off and then I looked out and there was a crowd of RAF people.

I had nothing else to do but unbox my parachute. We always wore a parachute. So I got, undid my parachute. I opened the door of this big Wellington, it was big in those days, and I went down the steps with my parachute and then when we got to the bottom all these people were just looking at the airplane and I said can we please go to control because I have to have my little chitty which says deliver this airplane I have to have this sign that I have, in actual fact, delivered this aeroplane. And they said, we can't go yet, we're waiting for the pilot to come out of believe me and they were so dumbstruck I suppose and then two boards went inside the airplane to search for it and I said oh my goodness me. They came out several minutes later and said, there's nobody else there. So I said, there you are.

And I've flown it all by myself. Whereas the RAF had a crew of five or seven always. And I had to fly and navigate all by myself. Did you feel close to the war? Were you ever in airfields when they were bombed or strafed? Or did you witness the aftermath of bombing raids, damaged aircraft, casualties? Did you feel that you were kept away from that side of things? No, we didn't see too much of that because we were shielded from the RAF when they were flying, particularly on a day when they thought that there might be enemy things. And that was one of the things that rather upset us girls, I think,

was the fact that there might be balloons up in the sky which we couldn't see. And so one had to always try and find out, whilst on the ground, where these balloons might be so that we didn't run into them. I think one thing was that we had this wonderful navy blue uniform with gold bars to say who we were, what we were and so the RAF respected this. They didn't make fun of us. Was it exciting work being independent? Oh hang on, plane going. There he goes. So many little things.

Was it exciting being a young woman in a job, away from the family, away from your mother, doing your bit? Was there a good atmosphere among your colleagues? It was quite an exciting arrangement for us girls to be together. together first thing in the morning, probably 15 hours from different billets which we'd been in overnight and then to start work at 8 o'clock in the morning and start flying airplanes and we were all terribly terribly excited waiting for the list of airplanes on paper which said like first officer Mary Wilkins will be flying so and so, so and so, so and so.

And we were all very excited because we did not know until that moment what we were going to fly or where we were going to fly it. Which is strange, but lovely. Terribly exciting. And you must have seen every inch of the UK from above. Yes. What's the most beautiful part of this country? Yes, but today's weather and this last six weeks, we prayed for, you know, clear skies. But we didn't get that too often in the war.

And so some of your fellow female pilots died, did they, on delivery jobs? They did, indeed they did. And was that very sobering? It was. Because there was another girl in the same billet in a different room that I was. And I got back from flying my aeroplane one day and the CEO said, I'm awfully sorry to tell you, your friend was killed this afternoon. It was a bitter, bitter, bitter blow. allow me to fly for two days because she obviously thought the effect would be too great. And then after that, the CEO would say, yes, we are all very sorry, but you know, there is a war. We do have a job to do. We all agreed, no matter what, we must go on. and shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai

warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. When the war came to an end, inside were you quite disappointed? Yes. I just started flying a meteor jet aeroplane, which was wonderful and so I couldn't fly that anymore. But most in the war somehow and then we all departed and went various ways sometimes never seeing each other again but I was asked to fly at the Isle of Wight for a farmer who had farms on the mainland as well. And so I became his personal pilot.

And that was very fortunate for me because I could then fly again. Otherwise, my flying career would have been at an end. And it sounds to me like you were only happy when you were flying, if you had a plane. Well, I was, yes. And how old are you now? How old are you now? How old am I? Old enough. Actually I'm a hundred and one coming up to a hundred and two. And when was the last time you flew a plane? By myself? Yeah. Two years ago.

Well, you live next to an airfield, so it's very handy. No, actually I went with my friend in a Spitfire and he picked me up from here and then he allowed me to fly back to where he had come from. I saw him only yesterday at the RAF show in London. And he was still very pleased about that. So was I. Wow. And you can fly no problem?

It all comes back to you. Does it like riding a bike? Yes, yes, it does really. What made you such a good pilot? Because I bothered to find a know-how and all the hundreds of little indices that you have to learn about flying before you actually do it. It's not terribly easy, or it wasn't then because we had no radio. Today people have terrific radio. They're told what to do, what not to do, where to go, what to land, everything. But us ACA girls had no one at all. We were on our own.

It sounds incredible now and people can hardly believe it, especially the RAF. They just say it's amazing. How did he do it? Does it make you very proud that you were a pioneer for female aviators and now there are young women who are able to join the RAF, become pilots and do the jobs exactly equivalent to their male colleagues and friends. You're absolutely right, yes. It's wonderful that girls are allowed to do these things now. Would you have been a good fighter pilot in battle? I have no idea.

I think you would have been. At my age, no. You'd still be better than me. What would you say to young women now who want to go into those jobs that maybe are seen traditionally as male jobs like frontline jobs in the RAF? I would say go ahead, yes, just go ahead, not be put off by anyone because the girls now are getting a high rank which they used not to have.

And so one was looking after me in London and she was a delight and she was an RAF officer and we had a great time together when we were walking down Curzon Street to the Spitfire. And do you think you made it easier for people like her to serve because you proved yourself as a pilot? Yes, I think so. If you had the inclination to be a pilot and someone you knew said without sign yeah I certainly would like any girl at all that wants to fly to go ahead and do it and it's quite different now from it was when i was 20 of course because all the flying i was doing was at an early age

well mary it's been a great honor thank you very much for having me in your garden next door to your beloved airfield. Well, I don't know, the airfield has nothing to do with me now. I still think it's yours. But it's very nice of you to come on this lovely, lovely English summer day. It really is. You've enhanced my garden. Oh well, thank you. I feel the hand of history upon our shoulders. All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs,

this part of the history of our country, all were gone and finished. Thanks, folks. You've reached the end of another episode. Hope you're still awake. Appreciate your loyalty. Sticking through to the end. If you fancied doing us a favour here at History Hit, I would be incredibly grateful if you would go and wherever you get these pods,

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