Dan Snow's History Hit - VE Day: 75 Years

Episode Date: May 8, 2020

For most of us, VE Day conjures up black and white images of carefree servicemen and women dancing and beaming in Trafalgar Square, of Churchill greeted by jubilant crowds in Whitehall, and of course, lots and lots of bunting. But was it really like this? In this podcast, you'll hear the speech given by Churchill from the Ministry of Health, cheered on by the boisterous crowd, an account by veteran Edward Toms about the drinking habits of the Soviets, and thoughts from two brilliant historians, Toby Haggith and Russell Miller. Subscribe to History Hit and you'll get access to hundreds of history documentaries, as well as every single episode of this podcast from the beginning (400 extra episodes). We're running live podcasts on Zoom, we've got weekly quizzes where you can win prizes, and exclusive subscriber only articles. It's the ultimate history package. Just go to historyhit.tv to subscribe. We have got our BEST EVER offer available at the moment. If you use the code 'VEDay' on sign up, you get 30 days free, then your first five months access will be just £1/€1/$1 - it's £5.99 a month after. 

Hello everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. It's VE Day. 75 years ago today, the guns fell silent across the European continent. Nazi Germany had unconditionally surrendered, the war was over, Nazism was destroyed. It was not the end of the Second World War, that came 99 days later with the surrender of Japan in the Far East. But it was the end of a long, brutal struggle against Germany, a formidable adversary. At 3pm, Winston Churchill gave a speech from the cabinet room of Downing Street. He went to the House of Commons to inform Parliament that the war in Europe had ended. And then he addressed the crowds of people that gathered in central London. In this podcast, we're going to be hearing from historians.

We're going to be hearing from a veteran. And we're going to hear a little bit from Winston Churchill himself. We've got a VE Day focus on history hit TV at the moment. It's like Netflix for history. You head over there. You can watch hundreds of history documentaries, like I said, including a VE Day documentary. You can listen to 400 extra episodes of this podcast, which is not available anywhere else. And if you become a subscriber to History Hit, you get live podcast records on Zoom.

We had one this week with Peter Frankopan. We've got ones with famous historians come up like Rutger Bregman. You've got weekly quizzes where you can win prizes and lots of subscriber-only articles. It's the ultimate history package. You get a history hit dot tv to subscribe we have our best ever deal at the moment it never ever gets better than this if you're ever thinking about it now's the time because it's being ve day anniversary we're doing our special special reduced rate at the moment if you sign up using the code ve day all one word, VEDAY, you get 30 days for free. And then your first five months will be one pound, euro or dollar for each of those five months. It goes up to 5.99 a month

after that. But each of the first five months, this is almost too painful to say, it takes through almost to Christmas with only five pounds, euros or dollars spent. So please, please go and check that out. If you're ever wondering what it's like, now's the time to do it. In the meantime, this is our V-Day 75 podcast. Enjoy. First of all, let's listen to the words Winston Churchill spoke on V-Day. Not the words that he said solemnly on the wireless, but the words that he spoke to a crowd of people rammed into London, the streets of Whitehall. He stood on the Ministry of Health's balcony overlooking Whitehall, and you'll hear the crowd shouting out.

When he said, this is your victory, you'll hear them shouting back, no, it's yours. And now, oh, what wonderful luck, at this moment, at this moment, how wonderful, Mr Churchill has come out onto the Ministry of Health balcony. Now Mr Churchill stands on the balcony of the Ministry of Health. He's wearing his boiler suit, the famous boiler suit that he's made so wonderful. And he had the audacity, shall I say, to put on his head his famous black hat. Nobody can say that it goes with a boiler suit, but you heard what a cheer it raised from the crowd. He stands now in the floodlight and he's giving the victory sign for all his might from the flooded mountains.

This is your victory. Victory of the cause of freedom is everywhere. Thank you. In all our long history, we have never seen a greater day than this. Everyone, man or woman, has done their best. Everyone has tried, done as best. none of this, neither the long years, nor the dangers, nor the fierce attacks of the enemy, have in any way weakened the unbending resolve of the British nation. God bless you all.

God bless you all. And now listen, the band is playing Land of Hope and Glory, and the crowd is singing. And this suddenly has become a very moving moment, for Mr. Churchill, too, is singing, and he is conducting the singing of this song. Will you listen, please? Thank you. That was Winston Churchill there. Obviously, as ever with Churchill, putting Britain's struggle into historical context, historian as he was.

Next, we're going to be hearing from the Imperial War Museum's historian, Toby Haggith. I talked to him as part of my History Hit Lives on YouTube's Timeline channel. It was so good, I just wanted to share it with you guys here as well. Toby is such an expert on these things, and he let me know what was going on around the country on VE Day 75 years ago. One of the features of the VE Day celebrations, even on the evening of the 7th of May was the bonfires. In Piccadilly, some people set up a bonfire in Piccadilly on the evening of the 7th of May, which was quickly cleared away by Auxiliary Fire Service. But bonfires were a feature of all the celebrations

all around the country. And this was spontaneous. It was completely unplanned. And there's a couple of reasons for that. First of all, the blackout had been raised from the 7th of May. In fact, the Ministry of Labour had said, all workplaces and factories no longer all the blackout had been raised from the 7th of may in fact the ministry of labor had said all workplaces and factories no longer need a blackout and one of the first things a lot of people remember of the evening of the 7th of may was an absolute kind of flood of lighting

everywhere so there was a woman in hull who was an evacuee and she recalled that on the evening of 7th of may everyone in her house turned all the lights on and all the light in the house and all the streets were turned on and the blackout blinds were pulled down and then she remembers in how all the bonfires on all the bomb sites all around and of course you know children had no Guy Fawkes night for the last five years there'd been the blackout restrictions which were actually a real pain for people I mean they were quite dangerous people would fall over things they found it difficult to write they'd found difficult to read this was a real problem and people really

object to it and also 7th 8th of May is a few days not long into spring and normally in the historical calendar of Britain the evening of the 1st of May is a time for bonfires. It goes back to Beltane, the Celtic festival. It's the start of spring. And for me, in a way, this V-Day coincides brilliantly with the normal celebration of spring, which is rebirth, banishing the winter. And the bonfire, traditionally, Beltane, people would dance around the bonfire, which they all did on B-Day night and then the 7th of May. You would throw

a sacrifice into the bonfire. And who is the sacrifice we all throw into the bonfire? The effigy of Adolf Hitler. So there's something very primeval going on there. Was there problems with lawlessness that night? Was everyone given a bit of a pass by the police to do whatever they wanted for 24 hours?

What you found was that, as you quite rightly realise, this was a brief moment for kind of unrivaled fun. The thing people do is they clamber up onto things. So they climb up onto vehicles, they climb up onto the top of buildings, they climb up lampposts and also people get undressed. Lots of people take their clothes off. There was a report of a woman on the top of a bus who got completely naked in the centre

of London. And the police generally tried to discourage this, but you just couldn't stop it. So again, there's something rather carnivalesque about the whole thing. Normal rules do not apply. These are mainly young people who are doing this. And as lots of people recall in their testimonies on the IWM's testimony site, everyone went a bit mad, which is completely understandable. For six years, there'd been incredible restrictions over people's normal behavior. There's a lovely story of a man in Ashford.

He was about 17 at the time. He grabs a girl who he'd rather fancied and they clambered off onto the roof of the Odeon. God knows why people have to get up high, but they do. And he's snogging this woman he's met and he looks down and there is his mum staring at him, looking rather disapproving. There is a bit of minor lawlessness, let's put it that way.

High spirits. All these groups, like's put it that way. High spirits. All these groups, like the young women that have gone out to work and gone away for their families or joined the ATS. What about all these groups that experienced a cradle of freedom during the war? Were they partying because they were slightly worried about what the future held? They might have to go back into those slightly more restricted... I've never heard anyone say that. I think it's an expression of relief. It's a expression of relief. It's a kind of giddy excitement because you have survived. Soldiers often experience a similar thing. I mean, Plummel Grimley, the films that cover the men on the day of the Battle of Somme

returning from the lines, having survived the first day of the battle, they look extremely excited and giddy with happiness and joy. And apparently that's a common reaction to people who have survived what they thought to have been a death-defining moment. And so many of the people who recall B-Day talk about the relief. We were so relieved that it was over, that we'd got through, there'd be no more killing. One woman said that she was so relieved that she wouldn't have to be scared of the bombs anymore,

to hide under my blanket. And let's not forget, 27th March, the last B-2 weapon fell on London. Only a bit more than a month earlier, Britain and London in the South East had been subjected to the most terrifying onslaught of rocket weapons. There were 30,000 casualties, hundreds of buildings were destroyed. And this was a weapon that was even more terrifying in some ways than the Blitz because you didn't hear the B-2. So the threat to Britain, although ostensibly it had ended, there had been the thought after the Blitz there'd be no more bombing and then the B-weapon comes.

So I think a lot of this madness, if you like, is also incredible relief, relief that was all over. And the other thing I've noticed, there's lots of young people in lines, marching at great speed, apparently directionless. And for me, I felt it's sort of we're marching on to the rest of our lives, to have children, to have love, to get married, to have a job, to return to our careers, get on with our lives. Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but

to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. That was Toby Haggith. I must say, all that public nudity sounds very unexpected, very un-British. Just goes to show, national myths. Next up, we have got a conversation I had yesterday with Edward Toms. Now, you will excuse the slightly dodgy telephone connection. The fact is, Edward Toms is 99 years old. He is isolating at the moment. He has not been within three metres of a human being for the last eight weeks. And

thank goodness for that, because he's a national treasure he needs protecting. Edward Toms served with the SAS in the Second World War. He's one of the last survivors of the original SAS, if not the last. He is a wonderful man. He is coming back again on the podcast. We've done an interview with him earlier this year, and we have filmed that interview, so it will be appearing on History Hit TV. That will be going out later this year but i just wanted to catch up with him and ask him specifically about his ve day so i gave him a call during the week what do you remember about the day itself where was your unit yes i remember exactly where we were because we did the assault crossing of the elbe on the night of the 28th, 29th of April

and we actually got into Lubeck which is about 50 miles to the east. On the morning of the 4th of May we reached the outskirts of Lubeck and we were bombed by the Luftwaffe, who were using the autobahn to the west of Lubeck as a take-off strip. They managed to get planes to land there and bomb them up. So the very last action I had of the war was on the 4th of May when we were bombed holding a bridge on the way into Lubeck and then they all surrendered and we

disarmed them and sent them walking westwards. That's all we could do. There were thousands of them. And so on the 6th of May, all operations ceased. The 7th of May was taken up with negotiating how the surrender would happen. And what about you? Was everyone up for a drink or was there just exhaustion? We had reached Lubeck and found it to be totally undamaged. It's a beautiful city, Lubeck, very historical.

I remember taking a burgomaster, or he took me, to the head of the police. And all the policemen, every policeman in Lubeck, was assembled in a big barn. And they were the only authority left in Lubeck. So they surrendered to me. And I just passed them on to General Howell, who was commanding the 5th Division. Talk to me, Edward, about when you met the Soviets.

What was that like when you had a drink with the Soviets? Well, they were drinking. You won't believe this, but somehow they drank high-octane petrol from their tanks. They had no liquor. And so we were invited to partake of that. And, you know, it killed you. It was silly.

So we got a whole crate of scotch. And we had this marvelous party where we all got absolutely blotto. That would have been about the 14th of May and the next morning when we were all sore headed and faced with a very nice bright sunrise we found they'd already built a roadblock about 100 yards down the road from where we met them

and were flying the Soviet flag. We responded by making our own roadblock and flew the Union Jacket. And I think they were under instructions from Moscow and the Commissars not to be too friendly. And when it happened, human nature was such that we were all delighted, hugged one another and danced together and generally, like soldiers do, enjoyed ourselves. And then that must have been reported back

and they clamped down. They wouldn't come. We tried to wave them where we had some whisky on the table. They just refused. This had happened at every route eastwards where the British were pushing as far as they could get. What are your thoughts on this week, 75 years since the end of that war? First thought, of course, is always with those young people that didn't make it.

You know, you feel so sad because basically you've had, I've had, a very happy life and they were denied a life altogether, really. I mean, they were still schoolboys in a sense. They never had an adulthood. And they died some 18, 19 years old. So you think of them all the time, I do. That was Edward Toms. Can't believe he didn't take a swig of the petrol.

Actually, he never said he didn't. I reckon he didn't take a swig of the petrol. Actually, he never said he didn't. I reckon he might have had a nip at the petrol. Lastly, we've got the writer, Russell Miller. He's trawled through hundreds of first-hand interviews and diaries and memoirs, talked to lots of veterans, about the E-Day. And I got in touch and asked him for some of his reflections about the big day.

In your research, is it possible, as a big headline, is it possible to say what the sort of national mood was? Or is it far more sophisticated than that? I mean, was there euphoria? Was there fatigue? What comes through the sources to you? At the time, VE Day itself, of course, there was a huge outpouring of joy and relief. But it was tempered by the fact, of course, that many, many people had lost loved ones during the course of the war, and the fact that the war was continuing still in the Far East, and there would be many more people who were going to have their lives lost in Burma and other places. So it wasn't the end of the war, it was just the end of the war in Europe.

Talk to me about the research you've done on just normal women and men on the streets, in the factories, in the offices of Britain. First of all, how do they hear about it? And secondly, what do they do? Well, there was a lot of confusion initially because the papers had reported that Hitler was dead and that Montgomery had received the surrender of German generals on Lüneburg Heath, but still VE Day hadn't been announced. I think the first true indication they got that VE Day was close was when the Board of Trade issued an announcement saying that until the end of May, you may buy cotton bunting without coupons as long as it's red, white or blue and does not cost more than one shilling and three pence per square yard.

white or blue and does not cost more than one shilling and three pence per square yard. Now some woman said to me that Board of Trade never gave nothing to anyone so when this happened we knew that VE Day must be very close but nevertheless there was still no clear announcement until the evening of May the 7th when it was announced on the BBC that VE Day would be the following day, it would be a holiday and the 8th and 9 Day would be the following day, it would be a holiday, and the 8th and 9th would be public holidays. So everyone then knew that it lasted to come. Rationing was still in effect. Did they have the wherewithal to party? Yes, they did. Because what had happened is, in the preceding days, people had been getting together, had been pooling their ration books, they'd been saving up the ingredients for a party, cakes and drinks of all kinds. And so people were ready for it. It's just that they had to wait

until they got the announcement of the day was actually happening. So there'd been a lot of subterranean preparation for the big day. And lots of communities have been working together for several weeks to make sure that when the big day came, they would have the facilities for a party. What about in Europe? Did you talk to veterans who heard the news? Would they hear it from their commanding officers or just on the radio? How would they find out? They heard it from their commanding officers. The serving soldiers heard it from the commanding officers and the German people and the German army heard it from broadcasts by Dönitz who'd taken over from Hitler. Germany was in a much, much

worse state than we were. The people were on the brink of starving. There were mutinies in the army. There was lawlessness across the land. Germany was absolutely ravaged and brought to its knees by endless bombardments and the might of the West. So they were a lot, lot worse off than us. And there was no cause on their part to celebrate. A, they'd lost the war and B, they'd lost everything. How did soldiers mark it? I mean, were they given a day or two off or did military discipline have to be maintained? No, there was no days off. The war continued, actually. There was a lot of mopping up to do in Germany and in the low countries. Lives had to be restored and people remained in the army. Those who had been conscripted into the army remained in the army for a long time after VE Day.

What was relationships like with the Soviets when the different forces met up across defeated Germany? Were the relations immediately frosty or did they enjoy a quick bottle of vodka before the onset of the Cold War? There was a pretty good relationship between the Americans and the British, but a less good one with the Russians, who virtually everybody feared. No one knew what the Russian troops were going to do, what atrocities they were going to commit, only the certain knowledge that they were going to commit atrocities, which is what they did. And so there was not much liaison or indeed any compatriot association between our allies, the British and the Americans and the Russians. To what extent were people thinking about the war in the East? Or did this feel like the end

of the war? Or did it just feel like victory in one theatre and there was a big job yet to accomplish? That was certainly the feeling. And it was emphasised by Churchill over and over again. In his speech to the House at three o'clock on the afternoon of VE Day, he pointed out there was still a vicious and dangerous enemy to be defeated in the East, and he mentioned it again and again when he spoke to the people. He made, I think, three or four appearances on balconies during the course of the day,

clearly having a wonderful time and enjoying himself enormously. And this wonderful Churchillian oratory about the dangers that still posed in the Far East was a constant, constant reminder. If you remember, I think he said in the House, we may allow ourselves a brief period of rejoicing, a VE day, but we have to understand that the war continues in Japan and in the Far East. Burma was still occupied by the Japanese. It was some time before General Slim's army was able to evict

them. And of course, a lot of people were going to be posted to the Far East. But actually, in the end, those places were withdrawn after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Well, thank you very much indeed. And thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's a pleasure. I'm glad I could do it. I hope you enjoyed the podcast. Just before you go, a bit of a favour to ask. I totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money, makes sense. But if you could just do me a favour, it's for free. Go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. If you give it a five-star rating and give it an absolutely glowing review, purge yourself, give it a glowing review, I'd really appreciate that.

It's tough weather, the law of the jungle out there, and I need all the fire support I can get. So that will boost it up the charts. It's so tiresome, but if you could do it, I'd be very, very grateful. Thank you.