Dan Snow's History Hit - War Crimes and Innocence in Iraq

Episode Date: May 14, 2021

Following the toppling of Saddam Hussein's regime in 2003 British troops in Basra were confronted with a chaotic situation as looting and rioting took hold of the city and society collapsed. As the British soldiers attempted to deal with this situation, for which they were neither trained nor equipped, a young Iraqi man drowned in one of the many canals found in southern Iraq. Joe McCleary and three other soldiers were accused of war crimes relating to the death of the young Iraqi man and subsequently arrested. After years of struggle and four different investigations, they were found innocent of all charges. In this episode, we'll be speaking to Will Yates, author of War Trials which tells the story of the men involved. We'll also hear from Joe McCleary about his experiences and the damage done to his mental health, prospects and family by the investigations following that tragic day in Iraq.A group of service personnel and veterans falsely accused of war crimes in Iraq are currently crowdfunding to bring legal action against the Ministry of Defence. More information and the opportunity to donate to their campaign can be found here.

Hi everyone, welcome to Dan Snow's History. Will Yates is a friend and former colleague. He's a brilliant writer and he's just published a new book which he brought to my attention. It features the story of four British soldiers in Basra in 2003. They were part of an operation to try and stabilise Iraq following the US-led Allied invasion that toppled Saddam Hussein in 2003. They were confronted with a chaotic situation, anarchy on the streets, looters, rioters, a society that collapsed. As the British soldiers attempted to deal with this situation, a situation that their training had not prepared them for and their equipment was unsuitable for, that their training had not prepared them for and their equipment was unsuitable for one Iraqi teenager drowned in one of the many canals that crisscrossed that area of southern Iraq.

In this podcast you're going to hear me talk to Will Yates who has written up this story but you're also going to hear me talk to Joe McCleary. Joe comes from a tight-knit family home in Merseyside, and he was one of the soldiers that found himself in Iraq, in Basra, and intimately connected with the events that caused the death of this young Iraqi man. Joe was arrested, he was tried in a court-martial, he was cleared. He was then investigated in subsequent inquiries by the Iraq Historical Allegations Team. In 2011, they found no further actionable evidence. He was then investigated again by the IFI, the Iraq Fatality Investigations, which is a non-judicial Ministry of Defence process. His service and the investigations that followed his time in Iraq have had a devastating

effect on Joe's mental health he has struggled with suicide attempts depression and a deep sense of betrayal by those he once served with it's a fascinating insight into a piece of very recent British military history if you want to go back and listen to several recent podcasts we've done on the first war in Iraq in 1990-91, you can do so either on this feed, wherever you get your pods, or at historyhit.tv, which is our digital history channel. Please go over and check it out. But in the meantime, here is Joe McCleary and the author, Will Yates. It's Joe McCleary and the author, Will Yates. Joe, when the war began,

when you heard you were going to be rolling and doing the job you've been trained to do, was there excitement there? Yeah, very much so, yeah. The news came in that we were going to war. So around all the company, everyone was super excited. People were like were like oh my god we're going to war what people don't understand is you know the last time we said there was waves we're going to war was a long time ago so you know you've got young lads there 18 years old getting ready prepared

we trained twice a day three times a day and how old were you i'd'd have been about 19, probably 20 I was. What was the training? How did the training prepare you? Was it effective? I mean, were you training in Germany for a desert war? How was that? Well, you know, it's quite funny because we trained over in Senelaga, which is in Germany. It was minus 20, something like that.

It was full of snow. We were training for the desert. Just no funds. The tanks kept breaking. I remember at one point, the actual track snapped in one of the tanks because of the snow. We were meant to be there for two weeks training.

It lasted three days. The tanks were destroyed. Everyone was ice cold. One lad had a crossbite. We were actually going to the desert, which was crazy. And what were you told you were going to face? Was this meant to be like the first Gulf War?

Tank against tank, armoured vehicle against armoured vehicle, racing across the desert, fighting another army. Is that what you were expecting to do? Yeah, we were expecting something like that, but it was chemicals. So we were trained in chemical warfare. We were in Germany and we were told to wait our match for 24 hours. We trained in chemical warfare. We were in Germany and we were told to wear our masks for 24 hours. We trained in chemical warfare.

That was it. And then we knew we were going to be in some type of buildings and firefights and stuff like that. So we didn't think we were going to be fighting in the desert. We didn't know we were going into the likes of Badgerland and things like that. But it was all still new to us. And the kit we were given just wasn't good enough. So talk to me, when you crossed the border into Iraq, what was that moment like?

Yeah, it was very scary, yeah. Very scary. I remember being super young, a lot of testosterone probably and a lot of nerves. I always remember the noises coming from it. We used to get mortared from distance, so the mortars used to come in and it'd be super scary for a young lad. But the adrenaline would just pump through your veins. And we were in the Kuwaiti desert probably about two weeks, two, three weeks. And then we went from the desert all the way up to Iraq. We went through the Kuwaiti desert into Iraq

and then we gradually just pushed forward. A place called Elysium is where we fought. We took over Elysium in Basra. Massive big college school. So the night before, we were training to go in. Everyone was just prepping up, prepping their grenades, prepping all the rounds. I remember just sitting there, I was used to such a young age,

thinking this is not a training exercise no more. We're not shouting banana, banana. We know that that round is a live round and I never slept. I just lied on top of the sleeping bag in this massive hangar, sleeping next to the lads. I don't think anyone slept that night. It was crazy.

Will Yates explains what confronted the British Army after the initial push into Iraq and as they approached Basra. As the British troops move into the area surrounding Basra, they've come up, remember, from Kuwait a few days before, travelled up the south of Iraq, and they're now on the outskirts of Basra, which is Iraq's second city.

is Iraq's second city. What they find is resistance less in the form of the conventional Iraqi forces, a lot of which had started to fade away somewhat. Some members of the Iraqi forces had taken off uniforms and fled. Instead, the biggest challenge to the coalition forces in the south was the Fedayeen, which was Saddam Hussein's essentially guerrilla forces, and they were commanded by Adam's son and had a reputation for brutality. As the British take their positions around Basra, they witness an exodus of civilians coming out of the city. The British have checkpoints they set up on the bridges that cross the rivers and canals that go around the city. They have intelligence assets inside Basra and they feedback reports that the Fedayeen have taken hostages and are using that to force Iraqi males to fight. There's also a worsening humanitarian situation within the city. Coalition planes have

bombed several targets that mean there is no longer fresh water available to residents inside of Basra. It's essentially a state of siege. The British commanders are concerned that the situation could descend into desperation stalingrad and grosney type of siege so they send in snipers to take out some of the fedayeen and then the situation comes to a head around the beginning of April, actually on April 6, when the intelligence tells the British that the Fedayeen are holed up, about 300 of them, in a college. So they move up what's known as Red Route, which is the main route into the centre of Basra, with a company of, number one, Irish guards, of which Joe McCleary is an infantryman. The soldiers attack the College of Literature and take out the number of Fedayeen who are inside.

So this is full-on urban warfare against a committed enemy, with the casualties taken on both sides? Yes, absolutely. This is warfare. There were Iraqi fedayeen casualties. What some of the British actually found when they were looking through and inspecting some of the dead fedayeen is that they had foreign-born passports on them so this told them that there were fighters coming from overseas to join this militia he's obviously spotted british soldiers american soldier australian soldiers we all wear uniforms different types they didn't there are a lot of masonry soldiers out there fighting us forms, different types. They didn't.

There were a lot of mercenary soldiers out there fighting us. That morning we went in. When the tank doors opened, we all debushed left and right and we moved forward as a unit and the fire was coming at us from Elysium from the top of the things. So we had to run through the college. We had to go through every door

for five hours we were fighting. A lot of them give up straight away. Some never. And that night we went into like all-round defence. We'd secured the area, really tired. I remember having cut marks on the side of my neck from where the ammo bags had just ripped because you carried extra ammunition. After a day of hard fighting,

as an unconventional and determined enemy, Joe's unit took the opportunity to rest. But the danger was far from over. unconventional and determined enemy, Joe's unit took the opportunity to rest. But the danger was far from over. There was like old metal, loads of old metal everywhere. And in these sheets of metal, there was a mercenary soldier lying underneath it.

And we were in all-round defence and he was in the centre of us. We didn't know who he was. Dark fell. Then two of our lads died. Four others were injured. He just kept fighting. He just kept fighting. He just kept fighting. It was AK-47.

Two died instantly. So the four were fighting for their life. And I just remember the noise and the actual chaos was just outrageous. Couldn't retain fire because he was in the centre of all our defence. These fellas just letting off rounds. Nothing you can do.

Couldn't stop them. And then all of a sudden you can just hear, man down, man down. It's just sending shivers. The radios were going nuts. You just realised that day it was just going to be hectic. That was the first day we went in. What was worse?

Was it the firefights? Was it fighting room to room, not knowing if you're going to survive the next day? Or was it the chaos? Or was it everything all mixed in? soldier you take the american soldiers dinner away and he'll throw his dummy out we're really gritty at that so the firefighters all got on you know after the lads was shot we all went back to this room i think that it was the palace that gave us all around the fence i heard every man in my company cry these are some of the men that i look up to this is something I inspired to be. All thinking, oh my God, we've got months of this. And then we've gone from all that, all that emotion to policing. None of us know what to do.

You've got the whole country in chaos having to deal with it. It was just looting going around everywhere you looked. It was just chaos and it was just uncontrollable chaos. The end of combat marked a rapid change of the role of UK troops as they tried to restore order in Basra. So what happened next was that the British move into the city of Basra. They transition essentially from a war footing, from soldiering to peacekeeping. And that is somewhat an easy transition when they're occupying another country as the troops were trying to maintain order and keep things together within the city that at that point was beginning to break down.

There was an epidemic of looting in the city of Basra, as it happened in Baghdad. And there was a struggle to control all those elements that were very volatile at that point in Basra. A challenge for the men shifting from fighting to policing was not just emotional. They didn't have the right gear, they hadn't trained for it or planned for it. We went from aggression to peacekeeping to policing. It was just all in a space of months and it was crazy, you know what I mean? There was a lot of emotion inside a lot of lads. You know, the policing system, even if you detain someone there was no way to detain them too we had a pen at one point and it was full in one hour there was nothing you could

do we had no structure the kit we had was falling apart the back of my pants you could see the cheeks and my ass it just faded away that had no knees left i'd one set of clothes out there that was it for the whole tour had you been been briefed, told to maybe expect that? Or what had you thought you might find? Typical army where you just sort of winger. And it was just put forward in a night's meeting. And you were just like, right, today, Mr. McClady, you're going to be a police officer.

Do you know what I mean? Or you're going to be this. And I'm sure the plans were well thought out. But you just had to roll with it. No real structure. No one to this day would have turned around and said, oh, you know what, we're going to be fighting the war and then we're going to be policing it.

The vast number of losers, combined with a lack of a plan or any training, created an increasingly difficult situation for the troops to manage. Will explains. an increasingly difficult situation for the troops to manage. Will explains. The British soldiers didn't know how to deal with the looters. It was a massive struggle for them and they had to adapt in quite an ad hoc way on the ground. The methods that they came up with to deal with looters were essentially deterrents. At times, I was told stories that Iraqi looters would be driven out of town and forced to walk a great distance in the heat back to town. to town. On other occasions, Iraqis would be put in water, in standing pools of water or in sewage, as a way to try and prevent them from continuing looting. It was these improvised methods that

would create the circumstances which would see Joe accused of war crimes and utterly change his life. war crimes and utterly change his life. So Joe McCleary was part of a section that was guarding the Basra General Hospital and were called to deal with some looters who were just outside of the hospital grounds. That day, we detained some looters, and then the locals were breaking them. They were throwing bricks like half-setters and bricks like at them. And then obviously the tank came around. The warrior, these locals going alibaba alibaba alibaba which means thief they were getting bricked so we had to protect them so we put

them in a tank and then i jumped in the back with another soldier and then the tank left and then 15 minutes later i don't know what's going on the back of the tank 15 minutes later the other doors appear to open out of the river. And as I'm untying them, they obviously must think they're getting shot or something bad's happening to them. It was pretty much

a punishment. You'll have to walk home now 15 minutes. That was it. That was your punishment because that's what they had to do. There was no other way

of policing it. So they just run. The first two people just run to the river and swam to the main pillars bridge four is humongous if you've ever been out there yourself you can see it and then this one boy this one young lad he went to the river's edge and as he stepped back he must have just went under but he went under like as in you know when he was diving away from me or what. But as I turned round,

my sergeant was waving a command which means mount up. That's what it means. It means mount up double time. And what you've got

to understand is there was another four soldiers without protection inside the hospital where we were protecting. We'd left there with only a few soldiers in the tank. So I had to make that choice on the grounds. Is he just swam under?

Is he just this? We didn't know. And then my side was shouting, right, let's mount up. I'd mounted up. And then, unfortunately, he died. And I wish to this day we could have helped him. to death. And I wish to this day we could have helped them. You're listening to Joe McCleary and Will Yates talk about Iraq, war crimes and tribunals. More after this. Land a Viking longship on island shores. scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History,

we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series, Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. In the aftermath of the drowning of one young Iraqi man,

an investigation was opened into what went on that day. The initial investigation was carried out by the Royal Military Police into the drowning death of the young Iraqi. And there was allegations that the British soldiers had forced the Iraqis into the canal at gunpoint. Someone alleged that the soldiers, perhaps Joe, had thrown bricks at the boy who drowned. So after a thorough investigation, which took a number of months by the Royal Military Police, Joe and three other soldiers who were there were arrested. I'd just got back from Northern Ireland. I was in Wellington Barracks, central London. I was arrested and took back. I was in a room in Wellington Barracks

and I was playing on the computer of whatever it was. London, it's pretty much ceremonial duties. We were out in Germany, we were on call, so probably doing nothing as usual. Someone knocked on the door. I thought it was the telly licence one, because a week later someone had said to us, you've got to have a telly licence.

And I was like, oh, you don't wait. He said, are you Joseph McLeary? And I said, oh, no, I'm not Joseph McLeary. I said, this is not my telly. And he said, I know you're Joseph McLeary. And I was like, no, not me. And then, look, I'm from the SIB, Special Investigation Bureau, which is like the nope, not me. And then, look, I'm from the SIB, Special Investigation Bureau,

which is like the ID of the army. And he just said to me, I'm arrested now, suspicion of war crimes and murder. And I was like, what? He recalled the incident and he said, come here. And he was a big lad. He was a big fella, two of them. And he treated me like muck from start to finish.

He was horrible. People then started getting involved within my lines because you just don't walk onto someone's lines without passing me platoon sergeant.

And then it was uproar and then he handcuffed me, brought me downstairs and then took me to a remote place in central London. Yeah, it was really tough. Were you already suffering with PTSD before this incident or did this really trigger you?

I probably was struggling, but we came home within weeks. We were in Northern Ireland. In a way, I don't think I had time to reflect on it. I was so busy. When I was at home, my mum said to me, you me, you don't see yourself. But it probably was festering. And then I was arrested. And then the whole world just fell apart from that day. I remember just from the car ride when they arrested me, he was like, you've murdered a kid in the back of the police car.

You've murdered a little boy. And I was like, I didn't a kid in the back of the police car. You've murdered a little boy. And I was like, I didn't. I didn't do it. And he was just horrible. And he left the car when we went through the gates. And the other police officer said, just tell him. Just tell him that he killed a raghead. Nothing will happen to you.

Just tell the truth. I said, I didn't kill anyone. I said, I can promise you that now. And then he went, just get out the car. And he just threw me to the truth. I said, I didn't kill anyone. I said, I can promise you that now. And then he went, just get out the car. He just threw me to the side, just left me in this little corner on my own. No representation, no solicitor, nothing. Joe's arrest was only the beginning of a long series of investigations that had gone on for years. The court-martial finished in 2006. He hoped that

that would be an end to the matter, but for him and the other soldiers, it was not. They would be investigated again in 2011 as part of the Iraq Historical Allegations Team, the IHAT. They found no basis for further evidence and investigation. However, Joe and the other soldiers were again investigated as part of the Iraq fatalities inquiry. And this kind of continued on up until 2016. And it was continually hanging over these soldiers and the impact that this has had on their families and the memories that they still have to this day. Despite being found innocent, Joe explained the sense of betrayal he feels

and the devastating impact of the court-martial and subsequent investigations on his life, his mental health and his family. I've been found innocent. I was reinvestigated four times after the trial, so I got found not guilty. I was reinvestigated another four times. Again, there was no evidence whatsoever and he's just destroyed my life, week in, week out, made me feel guilty. I tried to take my own life four times. They sent me home for two years, just sent me home. They got arrested that next day, and the army said to me,

right, you can go home, see your trial. The trial took two years. I had that hanging over my head for two years. And in that two years, then it started drinking. PTSD took hold of me massively. My mum run the army on numerous occasions. And their reply was, I'm sure you'll be fired. I ended up sectioned in a mental health institute in Stoddard House. He said he was no longer, it was a risk to my own life. And then when my mum rang him again and said he's took his own life, he's now locked away.

He said, well, let us know when he's out. No one turned up. Not one person from the army, not a captain, not a nothing. Even turned up, not even a phone call to the doctors to say, is he okay? Nothing. Just left me. And then I got out of the hospital. Made it better after a month inside of a mental institute. Nothing. Didn't even ring me. Didn't even have to go in every four months. Never. Just left me like I was nothing. It was all over.

When you were found not guilty, are you able to move on? Or has damage been done, do you think? No, I can never move on. I went from a strong, confident young soldier, full of life, to this weak, half a man that I was, frightened. He just didn't door slam behind me. I'd jump off my skin. He said, I have no jobs. I had one job interview where they actually googled me and said

oh i don't know that we can give you this job i know it's just my life right and then i always want to know why why didn't you come and get me when i told you new in the sound i was suffering why didn't you come and get me? Am I not part of the army no more? Did I not give it all my life? I wanted to do 20 years and that was it, just do me out. Well, Joe, I don't think you're weak. I don't know many people that could talk the way you're talking with the honesty and the clarity of it. So what are your regrets? Do you regret the experiences you had? do you regret joining the

army or was it the legal process was it the chaos in Basra? I don't have any regrets about the army I mean I was a young 16 year old boy when I joined I was just a bag of bones we didn't have much money growing up we didn't have nothing but you know my know, my mum was amazing. You know, she was an amazing woman. But we didn't have nothing. And we were up to no good. So that side of it brought the best out of me. It gave me manners. It gave me a sense of who I am.

But I give everything to them. And they give nothing back from me. I regret so much. I wish I would have known what was going on that day. I torture myself all the time. What if you could have done this job? What if you could have done that? Always what if. Never.

And I blame myself. I've gone through everything. It wasn't my fault. So sorry to that family that that incident happened and that's what happened to them. It wasn't my fault and it bored me for years. Just don't leave her alone.

So I had no time to say, you know what, it's over now. Or no one even come and said, do you know what Joe, I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry that I didn't come and get you. I'm sorry that you had to deal with all that pain on your own. Not even a knock or a welfare call. Just literally threw me in the dirt on the side of the road. And what about the job you were asked to do? Do you think you weren't supported there either?

I mean, it sounds like there was no plan, the wrong equipment. You were making things up as you went along. Yeah, definitely. I definitely think it was made up don't get me wrong a lot of the people there very clever people

and lovely people really gay fellas they looked after me and we were their family out there we were brothers as much as we watched each other's

blacks and everything else every day was a challenge with that kid I remember getting back on the plane to go home and we were forced to wear a new uniform because the cameras were on us.

And I was like, let them see what we've come in. Let them see me arse hanging out my pants. Let them see me. I look like I'm wearing shorts. We were homeless. And we all had brand spanking new uniform, brand new belts, brand new boots. Funny, isn't it, that we got it at the end of the tour

when we needed it in the middle. I mean, it was just crazy. But why did this happen? Will Yates has spoken to a lot of officers and men about the operations in Basra. I learned a couple of really intriguing facts from talking to some of the commanders. One thing was that the perspective of the Americans

towards the looting was essentially to let it happen. They gave an order, literally let them loot. The Iraqis could have their freedom. And if that freedom involved allowing the Iraqis to pillage and steal, then so be it. However, when that news started to filter back in the press in the UK, the government and the senior military figures started to get very concerned that it would be really bad PR if they did not find a way to clamp down on the looting. So what the commanders on the ground in Basra were told was stop the looting. Now they weren't told how to stop the looting and that was the big struggle, the big dilemma that they had. So that decision making was being pushed down to the lowest ranks, the people on the ground? Yes, absolutely. Really from the company commanders downwards,

there was a high degree of frustration at how they could deal with the looters. And ultimately, it had tragic consequences. I finished up by asking Joe how his life was now. I'm a lot stronger now. I have a great family, my wife and kids. I still struggle with confidence. I'm not a confident guy. We're still going on with the army now. Hopefully they'll give me an apology.

They'll tell me everything's okay and we can put this behind us. But until then, I'll always have that over my shoulders. I'll always have it hanging over my head I just feel like I want it clear now I want them to say to me look we made a mistake I'm sorry

and then fine we'll move on but until then it's always going to struggle Well I hope you get the chance

to move on then Thank you very much for talking to me on this podcast Thanks so much I feel the hand of history upon our shoulders

all this tradition of ours our school history our songs this part of the history of our country all were gone

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