Dan Snow's History Hit - War Lord with Bernard Cornwell

Episode Date: October 24, 2020

Bernard Cornwell joined me on the podcast to discuss his final book in the Last Kingdom series. War Lord is the epic story of how England was made.

Hi everyone, welcome to Dan Stowe's History here. I've got Bernard Cornwall back on the podcast. Last time we met it was in happier times. It was a few years ago, we were in West London, we drank a huge amount of his favourite Scotch whisky, Irish whisky, can't remember which one, on stage and answered questions from a big live audience, all hugging and breathing and celebrating fellowship in the same room as each other. This time he's back. He's talking about his latest juggernaut, his latest book on Uhtred of Beddenburg, The Warlord Chronicles. It's the final one. It's the climax. It's the big one.

Uhtred's going to Brunnerborough, everybody. Regular listeners of this podcast will know that History Hit was lucky enough to follow the wonderful Wirral archaeologists as they think they might have identified the famous battlefield, the lost battlefield, the battlefield where England was forged, kind of, just across the river Mersey from modern Liverpool. Anyway, Bernard Cornwall was in great form. It was a great treat talking to him. History Hit subscribers were able to ask him the odd question, as you'll hear. If you want to join HistoryHit, if you want to watch our documentary that we filmed on the field of Brunnerborough, if you want to listen as we interview some of the world's best historians, please go to HistoryHit.tv. It is still Trafalgar week, so we are running our ridiculous Trafalgar giveaway, which pains me to say it because it's so unbelievably cheap.

If you use the code TRAFALGAR, you get a month for free and then three months just one pound, euro or dollar. It's crazy stuff. It ends this weekend, so get it while you can. Enjoy. Thank you very much for coming back on the podcast thank you for having me Dan last time this is a sad echo of last time we had a big audience and you made me drink about a bottle of whiskey on stage so we might make a bit more sense this time yeah I hope so yes I remember that one of your assistants was kind enough to ask what I would like I think she thought I'd say a glass of water I said a bottle of Jameson's oh that was so It was brilliant. And so anyway, we'll make the best of it on this occasion. What are your feelings when you bring one of your long franchises, your long series to

a finish? This recent book is, Uhtred of Bed and Bird book, is the last of the series. Are you quite glad to get rid of it or are you a bit sad? Not glad. No, I mean, there's a certain reluctance to let go. I mean, I've lived with a man for 15 years. And as you know, when you write a book, that book sort of consumes your life. You dream it, you think it. And so I spent an awful lot of time in his company over the last 15 years. So there was a certain regret in saying,

okay, enough is enough. But the story was at an end. So it was time to finish. The history is obviously extremely unclear and fragmentary, but there's a lot of high politics in this book. Is that something you found yourself fascinated by? No, it's something I found myself condemned to describe. I mean, we know a fair bit about that decade that sort of leads up to Brunanburne. And, I mean, much of it is Athelstan trying to impose his authority over the whole island of Britain.

And so, yes, as you say, there's a lot of high politics in it. You said you were forced to get it in, but you write so well about the machinations of warlords and petty kings. I mean, do you have an affinity for that period, the early modern, the pre-Norman conquest England? Yes, I have a great love of that period. I modern the uh you know pre-norman conquest england yes i have a great love of that period i always wanted to write a series of books which described the making of england because it seems to me something which we english know nothing about i mean like

you i think i received a good education in england a historical education but it really didn't deal with that at all i mean the only thing I remember from primary school is being taught that King Alfred was a very bad cake maker. To this day, it's so weird to me that we all too often number our kings and start our sort of year zero history at 1066. I mean, I actually don't understand that. No, I don't. I mean, except obviously battles are turning points in history and Hastings was an enormous turning point in English history. So in some sense, that became the starting point. But Brunanbur was

just as big a turning point in many ways. And it deserves to be much, much better known, if not celebrated. Well, your description of it is typically brilliant. I mean, what did you learn as the books went on in terms of history, do you think? Did the way you write about those battles, those engagements, their religious views, did they change and evolve through these 15 years? Well, I hope they did, but I'm probably not very aware of it, as I'm not terribly self-reflective. I mean, I think what came out of that series for me was first a huge admiration for Alfred. And he is very much the man who dreamed up England, even if he didn't live to see it made. And secondly, just how the story of England's making

is such a bloody business. I mean, it was 40 years of warfare, and England was forged by battle. And it does seem to me that it's a story worth knowing. But by itself, I mean, that's just, if you like, the big story at the back of the book. The small story is Uhtred, which is all fiction. So that was where much of the fun lay.

And you, I take it, are not stopping. You're not stopping with the end of this series. What can you tell us about the future for Bernard Cornwall? The juggernaut. I can only tell you about the book I'm writing now. But beyond that, I have no idea. I've gone back to sharp. I've gone from the 10th century to the early 19th century. And Richard Sharp is marching again.

I always wanted to write at least one more. I probably will write at least one more. Richard Sharp marches again. Dare we ask whether it's in the peninsula or India? Again, I'm interested in what happened immediately after Waterloo, which again is a period which we never read about or learn about. But there was enough nastiness going on to keep Richard Sharp busy. Yes, indeed there was. And we know his son turns up in the American Civil War. He does a little cameo there as well. I loved your book on Shakespeare and the Tudors. I mean, do you feel that you want to stick with certain periods that you feel familiar with? or is there an urge to strike out?

And do you have other periods you'd like to write about? I think you have to love the period you're working with. And there are some periods I simply can't even imagine writing about. I mean, the mid-Victorians, just mid-19th century, bores me to death. I mean, I don't know what I'm going to do once I finish this book. I mean, I have an idea for maybe a couple more sharks. So maybe that's the next two or three years. I just don't know.

But if it goes anywhere, I suspect I'll go back to medieval. Well, you're a sailor and you write beautifully about sailing, so I hope there's a maritime bent to it. I always like it when you take a hero that's pretty land-based, but you turn them into amphibians, like whether it's Uhtred or Sharp. You give them a bit of time at sea. I always like that. Well, Sharp doesn't get much time at sea.

The one book, Trafalgar, but... You know, I thought it was good that he was at Trafalgar. I was a big fan of that. You've sold more books than most authors in the history of the world. Why do you think you sell great books? I'm not an historian. I'm a storyteller. And I think what people like about books is they like a good story.

They want to see how it all turns out, how it ends. And for me, people like about books is they like a good story. They want to see how it all turns out, how it ends. And for me, that's the joy of writing a book, is to find out how it ends. Are your books gateway drugs for history? I mean, should they be seen like that? Above all else, I hope they're entertainment, that people enjoy them. But if at the end of it, you're wondering, well, I wonder if that's exactly what happened, then it may drive you to go and look up the real history. I mean, that's what happened to me when I was young. I read Hill, Hornblower.

And C.S. Forrester only wrote 11 Hornblower books. And I consumed those pretty fast. And at the end of it, there was nothing left to read. So I went and found the real histories of the Peninsular War. That really was the beginning of Sharp. Do you read a lot of nonfiction? Do you still read a lot of history? I read an immense amount of history, yes. Are there any historians that have opened up your eyes to a completely new period where you think, oh, I'd love to have a little dig at that time? That does happen,

but, you know, I'm getting old and ancient, and I'm thinking, do I really want to spend five years researching that period before I start writing it? I don't know. How important do you think is the historical research? You and I have talked about this before. I mean, you say it's about writing great story, but it has to somehow feel that there is a real world that's built around it. Yeah, the world behind it has to be authentic. And that's where the research is. I mean, it's really quite easy to discover what happened. It's difficult to find out how people lived. Speaking of which, you're very involved in the team at Brunnerborough, the battlefield that we may or may not have discovered, we hope we have, on the Wirral.

Are you excited about the next year's dig? Of course, this year has been so interrupted by COVID, but what they might discover next? I'm very excited, yes. I mean, I know, for instance, that they're pretty sure they found a grave pit, but they haven't had permission to excavate it yet. I mean, I think the grave pit should nail it down, but we'll see. I mean, I'm convinced they have found the battle site, the number of artifacts they've discovered. They've got some very sophisticated ground radar equipment and so on.

So I think there's a lot still to find. But as far as I'm concerned, and I walked the battlefield with them and looked at a lot of the stuff they dug up, they've done it. I agree. And also you make the case in your books, but geographically, it seems logical. The main enemy is Anlaf. And Anlaf comes from Dublin. And all the chronicles say he brought a big fleet. One chronicle says he brought 710 ships across. Now, he's got a choice. I mean, a lot of people want battle to be fought on the East Coast in Yorkshire. Are you going to sail halfway around Britain?

You're not. You're going to make the quickest, easiest crossing you can. It takes you into, obviously, the East Coast. I mean, the West Coast. So, yeah, it makes sense to me that the battle was fought on the West Coast. And with exceptional river access by sea and easy to get there and get away as well. I mean, the Wirral has been proposed for a long, long time.

And it's been one of the favoured battle sites. I think that what Wirral archaeology have done is simply nailed it down. Said, yeah, here we are. We've got it. When you're writing these books, do you have favourites? You mentioned last time we talked that you were so fond of the young lady that your hero and Shakespeare's brother ended up marrying. My favourite of your books are the three King Arthur books.

Is it Kynwin, Derval's first wife? You said that she was your favourite character. I mean, do you still carry those ones with you? Oh, yes, absolutely. I mean, it's terrible not to fall in love with the heroines of your books. I mean, you've got to somehow persuade the reader they're worth falling in love with. But another of my favourites is Lady Grace from Charles Trafalgar. And one of the agonising things about writing that book

is that it was written after the earlier book, so she had to die because she's not mentioned in the later books. And that's a bit sad. That is sad. We've got a great question here from Shane, who's one of our History Hit subscribers who's watching this live stream.

When you start off writing a series like The Last Kingdom, have you got a grand outline? Is there some amazing whiteboard somewhere in your dungeon? I just wish. I mean, I just cannot plan a book. I have no idea. When I start a book, I don't know what is going to happen in the next chapter. I did know that it would end at the Battle of Brunanburg, because that's obviously a big historical milestone. But that was it. How we got to Brunanberg, I had no idea. And I didn't know whether it would take six books or 12 books. But I envy writers who can plot out a whole book

before they begin to write it. It must make the whole business so much easier. I mean, so for example, I was reading this recent one and you're quite, you know, you're not, Athelstan is not the incredibly attractive figure that he was a couple of books ago. And I wondered to myself, I wondered if Bernard Cornwall was annoyed at himself

for making Athelstan too nice when he was a young man. Because you've given yourself a mountain to climb now. Do you ever regret the decisions that Bernard made in 2015 or 2014? Oh, yeah, all the time. I mean, absolutely. I really do find that characters tend to make up their own mind about things as you're writing. And obviously it's me, but it seems to me that they've decided to do something.

And sometimes I wish they hadn't. And either you have to go back and rewrite and change their mind or else you just have to live with it. Athelstan, he was a very nice young man, but I think he becomes, in my book, he becomes seduced by the idea of kingship. And by, if you like, the trappings of kingship. He causes a lot of trouble in Britain by trying to impose his authority over men in Scotland, in Wales, who don't want to be dominated by the Saxons. But I think kingship has gone to his head a little bit. He's still a great room. It shows. Every time I talk to you, one of the questions that comes up again and again

from people is, what tips have you got? There are so many people out there who get in touch saying they're trying to write historical fiction. They dream of doing what you've done. Is there something that you've learned that might help people? Oh, Lord. Do it is the only thing I can say. You just have to do it. And all writing begins with

reading. You read as much as you can. And at some point, the sneaky little thought must come into your head that I can do this better. All you can do is sit down and write. You write, I think, initially to please yourself. You write what you want to read. If you love historical novels, then that's probably what you're going to write. And then with any luck, you're off to the races. We hope so. Do you care what historians think about your writing? I have no idea. Absolutely no idea. I mean, I imagine that most historians rather resent historical novelists because we go where they aren't allowed to go. You know, we can surmise, we can imagine, we can make things up.

On the other hand, I think a lot of people's interest in history is sparked by historical novels. So perhaps their audience only found them through my audience or our audience. Who's your favourite villain that you've created? Because you've created some absolute corkers. It's Obadiah Hakeswell in the show. And the stupidest thing I ever did was to kill him off. I mean, a good villain is worth their weight in gold.

And I've often contemplated inventing an identical twin for him called Jedediah Hakeswell, who can come on. But I don't think I'll give in to that temptation. It's a good thought. The villain reappearing is a very... Hence Conan Doyle was furious it killed Moriarty off I'm going to try and just get one question in from a panelist here let's have a go here we go Fraser the book I really loved of yours was the fort and I just wondered what kind

of reaction there was from uh American media and public to it because what it did was it portrayed revolutionary heroes in a quite a different, I would say, realistic light. And in a kind of follow-on, is there any thought of having a kind of follow-on books in that period? I don't think there'll be any more in that series, Fraser, and I'm actually not sure. A lot of Americans said they liked it. And of course, you're quite right. One of the major characters in the book is a huge American hero. But the truth is, and it is true, that he was court-martialed by his own side for cowardice and incompetence. This is Paul Revere. And Paul Revere only fought the British once, and it was a disaster. And he was in many ways responsible for that disaster. responsible for that disaster. And what I found extraordinary, really extraordinary, was that his reputation after the revolution soared up into the highest levels of myth as a revolutionary hero. And this was all because of Longfellow, the poet, who wrote the great poem, Listen, My you shall hear of the midnight right of ride

of paul revere and essentially longfellow made that man into a hero when he was the very opposite i think he was guilty of cowardice he was certainly incompetent and it's just interesting that history can be so distorted um and it was also interesting of of course, that on the British side, there was another man who had a poem written about him. We buried him at dead of night, the sod with our bayonets turning, and that was Sir John Moore. And this was John Moore's very first fight. He was only 19 years old. I just thought this was rather a nice coincidence that two men about whom great and famous poems were written actually fought each other. I mean, it was a very self-indulgent book.

I don't think that Americans much liked it, and I don't suppose they should like it. I mean, none of us like it when our heroes are pulled down like that. Thank you very much, Fraser. So, well, thank you very much, Bernard Corn, for coming on this podcast, you absolute legend. What is the name of this final book in the Uhtred of Beddenburg series it's Warlord Warlord

does what it says on the damn tin yes that's right thank you very much for coming on thank you everybody thank you so much right thanks Dan hope you enjoyed the podcast. Just before you go, a bit of a favour to ask.

I totally understand if you don't want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash money. Makes sense. But if you could just do me a favour, it's for free. Go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. If you give it a five-star rating and give it an absolutely glowing review, purge yourself, give it a glowing review, I'd really appreciate that. It's tough weather, the law of the jungle out there there and i need all the fire support i can get so

that will boost it up the charts it's so tiresome but if you could do it i'd be very very grateful thank you