Dan Snow's History Hit - Why is Jerusalem so Important?

Episode Date: June 19, 2020

Simon Sebag Montefiore joined me on the pod to discuss one of the most important cities in history. For the last 3000 years, its been hitting the headlines, and this pod was recorded just after Donald Trump announced that the USA would recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Simon is the author of the incredible book 'Jerusalem: the biography'. He explained why the city is sacred to three religions and why it has so often found itself on the front line of the great conflicts that have shaped the history of the Middle East and the wider world.Subscribe to History Hit and you'll get access to hundreds of history documentaries, as well as every single episode of this podcast from the beginning (400 extra episodes). We're running live podcasts on Zoom, we've got weekly quizzes where you can win prizes, and exclusive subscriber only articles. It's the ultimate history package. Just go to historyhit.tv to subscribe. Use code 'pod1' at checkout for your first month free and the following month for just £/€/$1.

Hello everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. Once a week we are rerunning one of the classic podcasts, classic podcasts, from the back catalogue. They're not available on iTunes anymore or wherever you get your pods, they're only available on History Hit TV. But once a week we'll pick one out and share it with you guys. This one is the brilliant historian, broadcaster, author, bon vivant Simon Sebag Montefiore. Absolute legend, great friend, wonderful ally in everything we're trying to do here at History Hit. I met up with him when Donald Trump decided to move the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, which of course is contested following the capture of Jerusalem in the 1967 Six-Day War. To just dig into this remarkable city that keeps cropping up time and again

through history, I talked to Simon because, well, frankly, he's brilliant. He was able to tell me that story stretching way back to the biblical times right up to the present day. As you'll see, it was a comprehensive chronology of that city and why it matters to different religious groups, ethnic groups, and imperial players throughout history. If you want to hear other brilliant podcasts like this one, or watch one of the hundreds of documentaries we've got on History Hit TV, please head over to the Netflix for History, History Hit TV. You can use the code POD1, P-O-D-1, to get you 30 days for free,

and then a month, just one pound, euro or dollar. We've got lots of other Simon Seabag Montefiore podcasts up there as well. So go and check them out. But in the meantime, here is everything you need to know about Jerusalem. Simon Seabag Montefiore, imagine my happiness when you email me the other day saying, let's talk Jerusalem. I mean, I couldn't believe it. So here we are back in your lovely office. And I mean, you wrote the biography of Jerusalem, right? I wrote the biography of Jerusalem.

And my aim was to write a book that hadn't really been written before. Of course, there are millions of books about Jerusalem. But what's unusual about this is it is a neutral history of everything, you know, from the Canaanites to Obama and Trump and the present day. You're going to have to write a chapter. You're going to have to write an epilogue now. I'm going to have to write the epilogue of the American recognition of Jerusalem as capital of Israel, which, of course, has just happened. And that's why we're talking. Yeah. So I suppose let's start. Let's go all the the way back we people it's a sort of axiomatic everyone sort

of assumes that Jerusalem's always been the heart of things uh center of center of three important religions etc but let's get let's go I mean was it even before the great monotheistic religions was an important place no I mean the strange thing about Jerusalem is like, how has this sort of small mountainous town on the blistered, boiling hot, waterless mountains and deserts of Judea, how has this become, you know, the capital of the capital of two peoples, three religions, and the most famous city on earth? And how has that happened? And the fact is, it's to do with holiness, you know, it's become the holy city. it wasn't always thus it probably started as a sort of canaanite mountaintop shrine like millions of others what made it significant throughout its history has been political decisions by leaders often leaders not even in jerusalem but obviously the first to make

to make that decision was david by placing the capital there his son Solomon building the temple there and that made it that made it politically the capital of the Jewish people which was then which then divided into two kingdoms Israel in the north and Judah in the south. Okay so let's quick why did they do that is it quite a useful defensive position? Is it strategically well placed? It's strategically well placed in the sense that it's on a mountain, it's on mountains, it's on Mount Moriah. And of course, it's a classic place for an ancient temple as well.

And of course, the old city, it is very fortifiable and that, but it's miles away from the main sort of trading route. I mean, for example, when Alexander the Great marched down, he just marched straight past to Egypt. He didn't, you know, because you march down the coast, it's where the main trade route, and it's far inland. So it's not a natural pace for a capital. But what's made it special was, first of all, this decision of David's.

Some people say, is the proof that David existed? That's one of the things we discuss in the book. If you're a believer, you believe that David existed. If you believe in archaeological rationalism, as we do as historians, then you use the Bible, of course, as part of the proof. But archaeology seems to suggest that David did exist, that there was a city there, a small one. And what period are we talking? 1000 BC.

1000 BC. And there's the tell-downs steal which mentions David. And we know for a fact that about 40 or 50 years after the death of King Solomon, that an Egyptian pharaoh, there's hooting outside, an Egyptian pharaoh, Sheshon, actually extorted vast amounts of gold

from the temple in Jerusalem. So we know that the temple actually did exist. The Jewish temple did exist, you know, within 50 or so years of the possibly, the semi-historical, semi-mythical kingdom of David and Solomon. And then, of course, it was the, then it was, of course, was the capital of Judah, the Jewish kingdom of Judah, ruled by the David family, the Davidian family, until it was destroyed in 586 by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. And it was this destruction. The strange thing about Jerusalem is that destruction has constantly been key in its creation as the great holy city. And it was this destruction in 586 that meant the Jews went into exile and they started to write down the stories of Jerusalem,

which became the Torah, the Bible, the books of David, whatever you want to call it. And that book, the Bible, the Old Testament, was the making of Jerusalem because that ultimately translated into Greek, used as the basis for Christianity, used as the basis for Islam, providing an authentic narrative of holiness, a heritage of holiness for the second and third of the Abrahamic religions. That made the Bible the universal book, and it made Jerusalem the universal city. It's thanks to that book, the fact that the Jews wrote it down, they told that story, and they never gave up hope of returning to Jerusalem. It's that that's made Jerusalem the holy city of history.

And when did they manage to return? Well, they returned quite soon because they were exiled to Babylon. But within about 50 years, Cyrus the Great of Persia had conquered the Babylonian Empire and inherited Jerusalem. And he introduced a new, he was a very interesting character, Cyrus, and his dynasty, Cyrus the Great, Darius the Great. They introduced an idea of a world empire, but where religions would be tolerated, local religions would be tolerated, providing they recognized the great king as total ruler, supreme ruler. So they let the Jews return, rebuild the temple, and that was the second temple.

So that lasted until the conquest of Alexander the Great. Alexander the Great tolerated the Jewish religion as well, but one of his Hellenic successors in the kingdom of the Seleucid kingdom, which was one of the successor kingdoms of Alexander the Great's Macedonian Empire, one of them tried to ban and crush the Jewish religion there. That led to a huge revolt, the Maccabees, in about 160 BC, and that led to an independent Jewish state again, which was called the Hasmonean Kingdom

or the Maccabean Kingdom. And that lasted 100 years, ending with the Roman hegemony. And then we're in Roman times and Herod the Great. So at what point did people, when Cyrus conquered the Babylonian Empire, were the Jews quite distinctive by that? These guys are pretty crazy.

They've held it, they're monotheistic, they've held on to their, I mean, because there's lots of religions competing all over the Near East and East Central Europe and all that. But at what stage did people start to realise that the Jews were quite distinct? Well, then, I mean, you're absolutely right, it was around then. There was an enormous amount of syncretism, which is that you need to borrow other people's religion,

merging of gods. And, you know, as we know best with the Roman, for example, with the Roman anducid king Antiochus tried to crush and ban the Jewish religion altogether, by then it was pretty clear that the Jews were a very odd and stubborn bunch because they still stuck to this mono-atheistic religion which was totally out of the spirit of the times. I guess that's been part of the Jewish sort of heritage throughout history, has been this kind of almost stubborn belief in the Jewish religion and loyalty to it. And it's then given Jerusalem that special tint,

because even those of us that aren't Jewish or aren't religious think, God, there must be something going on there, because that's a profound attachment to this place. Well, the interesting thing is, I mean, a lot of the argument now about Israel and Palestine, I mean, I think the background to it is to understand that both sides are to shamefully, you know, denying the narrative of the other. The Palestinians officially are trying to say there was never a Jewish kingdom there, there was never a King David, there was never a temple on the site of the Temple Mount,

the sacred esplanade where the Dome of the Rock stands today. And at the same time, the Jewish right, the Likud part of Israeli politics, is constantly arguing that the Jews have been there for 3,000 years, there's never been a Palestinian state, the whole thing is a sort of invention of history. And both have got to recognise the narratives of the other. And it's both shameful that both are plugging those lines, because the archaeologists and historians of both sides

know perfectly well that, yes, there was a Jewish state, there were several Jewish states, there was a Jewish capital in Jerusalem, there were two Jewish temples, three, really, if you include Herod the Great's. Fantastic temple, which Jesus, which is the one that Jesus knew. So our mission as historians, the reason why it's worth having this conversation is just for people to understand that, yes, the Jews have been there for 3,000 years.

The Muslims have been there for 1,500 years. The Christians have been there for 2,000 years. People only have to live in a city for 50 years for it to be their home. So it's not in doubt that both these peoples and both these religions have fantastically authentic, long and fascinating histories. And the only way they can make peace is literally to recognise each other's narratives. They have to recognise Yerushalayim, we have to recognise our Quds.

And that's what my book, Jerusalem and the Bargabah, is really about. And that's why it's worth telling the whole story. This is brilliant. We got to the Romans arriving. To the Romans, you talk about King Herod, was he a sort of client king? Was it direct imperial rule or did they allow local elites to go on? You're absolutely right. He's a client king. He's one of the most fascinating characters. He was the sort of Stalin and Henry VIII of the Bible. And he is someone who married ten women, had many children, killed three of them himself,

married the Maccabean Jewish princess, the beautiful Marianne, who he then had to have strangled. I say had to have, because he didn't have to have. He insisted on having a strangle for disloyalty and then kind of was in love with her and never got over that um he then um he became one of the richest men in the roman empire great great friends with all the roman rulers and sort of almost like and the herod family became a sort of almost like sort of um a sort of a junior royal family to the royal Julio-Claudian dynasty

that lasted from sort of Caesar and Augustus to Nero. For example, Nero was brought up with one of the Herods. Caligula was brought up with one of the Herods and so on. So they became a sort of client junior royal family almost. And Herod the Great was the founder of it he was incredibly good looking strapping intelligent but flawed brutal monstrous but his great genius was one to create what is basically the old city of Jerusalem as it stands today with the sacred huge sacred esplanade where the where the temple stood and where now the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque stand.

And he built the giant wall that is the holiest site for the Jews, the last bit of his temple standing. He designed the whole of Jerusalem as it stands today. So we should say that's the Wailing Wall, as it's called. That's called the Wailing Wall. And it's actually a massive supporting, almost foundational structure to where the old temple was. Yeah, and it has stones in it that are literally 200 tons.

So no one quite knows how the hell they transported this, but he did. And it's a beautiful piece of wall. And you're right, it's a supporting wall. But it gives you an idea of how extraordinary Herod the Great's temple was. It was the most amazing sort of temple in the world. I mean, even the shrines in Rome were not great. You know, built by the Roman emperors themselves were not comparable to it. And it was incomparable. People said that when you came over the hill and you saw it,

it was like seeing a mountain covered in gold or snow because the white ashlar stones are so beautiful. And so that's encouraged by the Romans. That's fine. He's kind of king. It's harmless for these Jews to be worshiping the Romans. He rules for an incredibly long time, Herod. In the end, he kills three of his own sons.

He has his wife strangled. And he builds this incredible thing, this incredible temple, which is the temple that Jesus walked in and that Jesus was both, you know, Jesus, much of Jesus's life as a typical Jewish boy took place there, you know, his circumcision, probably some sort of bar mitzvah, and he continually returned there for the Passover festivals and including, of course, you know, his last visit, the famous last visit to Jerusalem at Passover time, Easter time as it became. By then, Jerusalem was ruled directly by a Roman procurator pilot.

But the Herod kings, there were five generations of Herods who ruled great parts of what is today Israel, Lebanon, Jordan. And one of them was the one, Herod Antipas, who tried or refused to try Jesus. Another one, and also who beheaded John the Baptist, of course. Another one was Herod Agrippa, who was the great friend of Caligula. So they were always, they're a very interesting family because they kind of existed in parallel to Tiberius and Caligula and Nero. But the Romans so misruled Jerusalem that under Nero, there was a huge Jewish revolt.

And that led to the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, because when it was reconquered by Titus and his father Vespasian, the temple because when it was reconquered by Titus and his father Vespasian, they pushed down the temple. Huge piles of these rocks can still be seen, these stones can still be seen. They massacred everybody. They burnt the temple down, which was because the temple, it wasn't just a building, it was a huge complex filled with sort of parchments and beautiful silk curtains and cedar wood and so on. It went up like a hell of an inferno. And Jews were banned. And there was then another Jewish revolt against Hadrian. in about between 1 to 9, well, the 130s, basically, about 132 AD,

he decided to change the name of Jerusalem to build a Roman temple on the site of the Jewish temple. That caused a huge revolt by Simon Bar Kokhba, who I'm named after. You know, Simon, son of the star. And Simon Barcov. And he, that failed totally and led to even more destruction.

Hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed. It was a genocidal campaign. Genocidal campaign. I mean, because they actually did destroy, they managed to destroy a Roman legion, which as you know well as a military historian was kind of like, that was about the worst thing that could happen in the Roman Empire.

It gets you in trouble. It gets you in trouble. So they then brought massive forces down. And then they decided to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, to make it into a typical Roman, Greek, Hellenistic Roman town. And to change the name of Judah, Judea, to a name that was specially calculated to upset the last Jews who were there,

which was Palestine, based on the Philistines, the name comes from the Philistines, the sort of biblical enemies of the Jews. So there began the sort of many centuries of sort of Jewish exile, really. Yeah, never again would the Jews have a state or even a sort of client state until the 20th century.

Well, funny enough, weirdly, twice they did. Okay. Because under, of course, Constantine the Great adopted Christianity as a state religion. One emperor, one empire,

one religion. And he sent the most successful archaeologist to Jerusalem to find the site of the Holy Sepulchre, the Holy Tomb. Because his mum was... And it was his mum. So his mum, Empress Helena, was basically the most successful...

Oh, I see. She was the most successful archaeologist because she went to find it. She found it all. Of course she did. She even found the nails that had been used on the cross. She found it all. Of course she did. She even found the nails that had been used on the cross. She found everything. And she built the first church, the Holy Sepulchre, and converted Jerusalem into a Christian city.

Yes, this was the beginning of the Christianize. Is it right to say that before that, with the direction that Christianity went with St Paul, Christianity's focus wasn't really Jerusalem, was it? Well, there were two focuses. You're absolutely right. I mean, Paul was interested in, his fascinating character, was Paul was interested in converting non-Jews to Christianity.

But actually, until 70 AD, the reason why 70 AD is so important is because until that date, the Christians were a Jewish sect, basically, still worshipping in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and run by relations of Jesus, first of all his brother then his cousin, so until 70 and then when 70 happened and the Empire fell they could see God had withdrawn his blessing from the Jewish faith and Christianity separated it from the mother faith and became an independent religion. As after the cataclysm of the destruction of the temple.

So no wonder the Jews think the Christians are kind of splitters. Yeah. But also, I mean, so that was the end of the connection. And so, of course, Christianity, because each successive prophet, each successive faith, each successive revelation has to recognize, has to explain the centuries that went before it. Because all holiness is about heritage, about time, about

what's gone before. So each prophet has to recognize that there was holiness before it, which they've inherited and commandeered, as it were. So that's what happened. So that's why, you know, the Old Testament is the Old Testament. The New Testament builds on it. And of course, Jesus was very interested as a Jew, practicing Jew. He was very interested in fulfilling the prophecies of the Old Testament, just as Muhammad was then interested in fulfilling the prophecies of both the Old and New Testament. So Constantine the Great in the fourth century converts. Jerusalem now becomes one of the showpiece Christian, Roman Christian cities. And of course Jews are still worshipping pitifully around the walls of what was the temple,

which include the Western Wall, the Eastern Wall, the Southern Wall. And they would pray there whenever they were allowed. The Temple Mount itself was a wasteland, and Jews were allowed on there once a year to be mocked by the Byzantines and the Romans as kind of pitiful people, and almost as proof that God had withdrawn his blessing from the Jews to give it to the Christians. And so the Jews never ceased revering, craving, loving Jerusalem.

This went on till Julian the Apostate, for a second, much later, in about 362, he wanted to change the Roman Empire back to paganism. And as such, he was very tolerant of other religions, He wanted to change the Roman Empire back to paganism. And as such, he was very tolerant of other religions, including the Jews. So for about a year or two, he was planning to rebuild the Jewish temple. And he gave the Jews Jerusalem back or the Temple Mount back. So that's one weird exception. And then in about 614, the Persians conquered Jerusalem, conquered the whole Middle East, in fact.

And they gave it for two or three years to the Jews again. So those are the two kind of periods that no one knows about, which the Jews again had Jerusalem. But that didn't work out. Heraclius reconquered. The great Heraclius, who was a sort of Dan Snow kind of swashbuckling hero. A real podcast entrepreneur. A real podcast. Yeah, well done.

I think imagine yourself a Heraclian character. So he got it back for a short while. And then, of course, the Muslims burst out of the Arabian Peninsula. And they revered Jerusalem. First of all, Muhammad had had them worship towards Jerusalem, not towards Mecca, for a short period before the Jews rejected Islam. And then the first, Caliph Omar, had taken Jerusalem. And one of the reasons why they were so keen to take Jerusalem in about 638 was that they believed very much in all the prophecy,

the Jewish prophecies. They revered Jesus, David as prophets and they believed that the end days, the apocalypse would happen soon in Jerusalem. And it's one of the reasons they immediately started to pray on the Temple Mount. They built a mosque there immediately under Muawiyah, one of the early caliphs, and then Abdul Malik in 691 built what was meant to be, was designed in many ways as an Islamic version of the Jewish temple and built on the foundation stone of the Jewish temple, the rock. So a real feeling that the sort of each feeling that each successive religion, commandeering, borrowing, not just the stones, but actually the stories of the previous religions. And one of the strange things about Jerusalem and holiness is holiness is infectious. It

only takes one religion to find a site, religious and holy, for the other to do so. Religion and religiosity and holiness are infectious. They're competitive. And you see that constantly in Jerusalem right up to today. Land a Viking longship on island shores. Scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer.

Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week. Lovely way of putting it. So then we've got unbroken centuries of Islamic rule, albeit different kinds of Islamic rule. Oh, actually, no, you haven't. What am I talking about? You've got the Franks, you've got the Crusades. You've got the Crusades. So 1099, you get the Crusades arriving. And the interesting thing about that is,

we think of the Christian world as completely broken up into warring barons and principalities. And that's basically what you have in the Islamic world too. All the great caliphates are broken up. And by the 11th century, you have all these rival warlords. And that's why, of course, a tiny army of 12,000 francs is able to actually conquer basically the whole Middle East, this whole Lebanon, Jordan, Israel. And was Jerusalem the stated aim of the first?

It was the stated aim. And of course, the strange thing about Jerusalem is that Jerusalem exists in the mind as well. I mean, there were many kind of... Every church in the Middle Ages had a Jerusalem chamber. Henry IV died in the Jerusalem chamber, for example, in Westminster Abbey. But everyone... So they all believed in this kind of idea of Jerusalem. In fact, Jerusalem was this pretty small Islamic town with a whole lot of Arabs and Jews living in it in 1099

when this kind of army arrived, this tiny kind of army of knights arrived in the Middle East. Sweating Frenchmen. Yeah, in July. And they take the city and they kill every single person in it, all the Muslims and all the Jews. And it's supposed to be 100,000, as many as 100,000 people killed, but it's probably kind of 20,000, but it's supposed to be a hundred thousand as many as a hundred thousand people killed but it's probably kind of twenty thousand but it's still an astonishing massacre and for that period

no Muslims and no Jews are allowed to live in it but the Jews of course continued to pray around the you know around the temple walls as they had before as they'd always as they always would and of course the Muslims were horrified by what the christians were doing because they believed that everything that they found there was something to do with david and solomon so they believed that the dome of the rock that magnificent dome that's still there today of course they believe that that was solomon's palace so they lived in it for a bit goodness yeah that was they destroyed it they might have destroyed it. I was going to ask why they didn't destroy it. Yeah, they believed that all these sites were, and they gave it to the Templars at one point,

the Temple of Man. And of course, they rebuilt much of Jerusalem too. Queen Melisande particularly rebuilt the Church of the Holy Sepulchre as it is today. Anyway, so it was retaken in 1187 by saladin amazing character fascinating complex character probably kurdish came from iraq conquered first of all you know first of all egypt then syria syria and iraq and then finally in 1187 got jerusalem back amazing moment and you know many of, many of the great Palestinian families of today,

like the Al-Haldis, the Nasebis and others, Dajanis, all start really from that date. And, you know, the Nasebis are still opening the, you know, opening the keys, have the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre as a sort of compromise in order to stop the Christians arguing among themselves. And that was given to them by Saladin, almost certainly. And Saladin, so Saladin brought back really the sort of Palestinians of today. There, of course, there had been families that had lived there since the Islamic conquest in 638. So that was really the beginning of kind of modern history. And the Saladin family rules for, you know, his brother rules after him,

Safadin, as the Crusaders called him. And they ruled for a while. And then, of course, it was taken by the Mamelukes, by the Ottomans. The Ottomans are interesting. They conquered the whole Middle East. And Suleiman the Magnificent is the one who says, OK, I don't want the Jews praying around all of the Temple Mount. I'm going to give them a bit of war.

And it was he that assigned them the war, which is interesting. Solomon's fingerprints are all over the modern world, aren't they? They're amazing. He's an amazing character. Ruled for something like 60 years. Incredibly soldier. Fascinating lover as well, of course, of Roxolana. He marries this Russian slave girl who then is the mother of the next sultan, of Padishah, as they called the emperor.

And he also built the walls around it. Because it's important to understand when one looks at Jerusalem, is that Jerusalem is frequently ignored by everybody and almost forgotten by everyone except a few desperate Jews praying there. And the Muslims themselves are often very negligent of it. So the kind of CNN headline of, like, you know, Jerusalem, holy to three, you know, holy to three faiths,

is really pretty modern. Because if you look at, for example, between about 1229 and the 16th century, when Solomon the Magnificent is the builder of the walls of the old city walls of Jerusalem. So they just date from Henry VIII, those walls. They're very recent. Well, I stroll on the feeling i'm connecting with a bronze age sort of that's very well you know the ones around the temple the ones in the south

part of of the old jerusalem those are the original and you know obviously the herod wall that we're talking about and the walls around the southern the southern walls of it are very ancient and they really do come from the maccabees, from Herod the Great, maybe even older, you know, and definitely helped hold the temple, the second temple. But the rest of the walls are all Suleiman the Magnificent. They're Tudor. They're no older than the Tudors. And before then, for 300 years,

Jerusalem had just been left half-abandoned, abandoned, half empty, and with no walls at all. So it's under very chaotic Muslim rule. So that was one period when actually suddenly it ceased, after the excitement of the Crusades, for a few hundred years it ceased to be important. important um so solomon the magnificent was promoting himself as you know as a sort of cesar as a sort of caesar um you know caliph um and and sort of ruler of all religions of the world world emperor and so he kind of embellished istanbul he also embellished um uh jerusalem and he gave it walls he kind of he restored the Dome of the Rock, which was falling apart by then, and the Al-Aqsa Mosque. And he was one of the creators. He never actually went there, but he's one of the creators of the Jerusalem we know today. But again, after his

excitement of all his interest and the money he spent on it, I mean, he spent the entire income of, you know, the tax income of Egypt on embellishing Jerusalem. It's a very expensive project. And he put the beautiful tiles that we see today on the Dome of the Rock as Suleiman's. But then again, after about, for the next three or three hundred years, the Ottomans completely neglected Jerusalem, which began to fall apart, became, began to empty. So by the time you get to the early 19th century, Jerusalem is ruled by various kind of irresponsible, shambolic, Ottoman warlords, pashas. The city is literally half empty. There's prickly pine forests within the old city of Jerusalem and nothing there. There is about

2,000 people living in Jerusalem, just about keeping the, you know, it's like a monumental village, really. So that's a period when the Christians were ignoring it. A few holy, really religious Jews lived there and went on pilgrimages there. Of course, some Muslims went on pilgrimages there, but the Muslims themselves had also really neglected it. So there would have been a much more dynamic Jewish community in Baghdad, for example, than in Jerusalem. Oh yeah, there's a huge Jewish community in Baghdad, all across North Africa, in Istanbul, in Salonika. And then, of course, in the early 19th century, everything starts to change because suddenly there's this kind of Victorian, heroic, muscular, evangelical Christianity starts to take a huge interest in the idea that the return of the Jews would lead ultimately to the Second Coming,

which is also believed by American evangelicals today. And at the same time, people like my ancestor Moses Montefiore started to go there and started to sort of buy land and help the very poor Jewish community which was there. And Jews start to move there. But also Christians suddenly start to take a huge interest in Jerusalem. And so you get in the late 19th century, Christians are interfering very much in the Ottoman Empire, which is falling apart. And the Russians, the British in the Ottoman Empire, which is falling apart. And the Russians, the British, the Austrians, everyone starts to build in the old city of Jerusalem and build these huge shrines, churches. The Kaiser builds a huge church there. And suddenly Jerusalem is being built into this kind of new holy city,

fueled partly by Christian bibliolatry, which is a great word, which means like worshipping the Bible and looking at the Bible. And also people like the Montefiores and the Rothschilds, the Jewish families in the West, suddenly start buying land and helping the poor Jews there. And at the same time, the Russian Tsars are persecuting their six million Jews in the Russian Empire with pogroms so that Jews start to immigrate to Jerusalem, which they've always longed to do. They were never able to do. And suddenly they're allowed to go. And the Ottomans are too shambolic to stop them?

They're too shambolic to stop them. No, they're too shambolic. So you have an interesting situation that by about 1880, there is a Jewish majority in Jerusalem. I mean, the Jerusalem population is pretty small, but you actually have probably a Jewish majority only in Jerusalem, not in the whole of Palestine. The whole of Palestine, there's a huge majority of Palestinian Muslim Arabs, mainly Muslim, some of them Christian, some of them Greek Orthodox. And so, first of all, there seems no threat from Jewish immigration. And for the Jews, it's an amazing moment because for hundreds of years,

they've longed to return to Jerusalem, and now they can. And so they do. The point about Zionism is, it's not true to say that Zionism is a kind of colonial imperial invention of the 1890s. I mean that was simply the organization a political organization of Zionism started but actually there'd always been Zionism since 70 AD and Jew people had always wanted to return that and had tried to return that and many times you know. So there's very it's a very interesting moment in the 1890s when they suddenly Jews start to immig return there and many times you know so there's very it's a very interesting moment in the 1890s when they sudden Jews start to immigrate

there and of course that ultimately leads to the Balfour Declaration of 1917 of a hundred years ago and a hundred years ago last week the British captured Jerusalem that's right first time Christian army if you like and done so for a hundred years I've got a spasm of worry because I've looked we we've done half an hour and we haven't even got to the 20th century yet. Well, maybe we shouldn't do too much of the 20th century. Yeah, we won't do too much. But the British promised Palestine to several different groups. But I mean, really the issue of Jerusalem being the capital of Israel is probably from 48, 67, isn't it?

So talk to me about that. Well, there's two points to make here because we're running out of time. But one is the Balfour Declaration is just an interesting point because 100 years ago today should really be called the Lloyd George Declaration. What your great grandfather. That's right. Yeah. Your great-grandfather. That's right. Churchill, Lloyd George, and Balfour were the three Zionists in the cabinet, opposed by people like Curzon and the Jewish Edmund Montague,

who was Secretary of State for India. Obviously, the whole point about it was that the French had already given a sort of Balfour Declaration with a much stronger endorsement of Jewish return there. So it wasn't completely absurd that the British alone were doing this crazy thing. But it is true that one is that a Jewish claim to a religious heritage in the Holy Land is of course totally historic. What made the Bible Declaration happen was that in 1917, the British were desperate to win the war. And they promised all sorts of things to the Arabs and to the Jews, which they never promised to either, you know, had it not been 1917, the Western Front bleeding like it was. and they were desperate for allies against the Ottomans.

So that's why it happened. It was careful to state that it was a Jewish homeland, not a state, and that the Arab, indigenous Arab population would be protected. And of course, by 1939, massive Jewish immigration and problems in ruling Palestine have made the British change their mind, and they reversed the Balfour Declaration completely in 1939 and said enough. So you then get to the independence of Israel in 1947-48, promised by a UN resolution, and Jerusalem is to be an international city. What happened was all the Arab states invaded, and in fact the Jordanians took half of it, and the state of Israel took the other half of it,

and declared it their capital. No one else recognized it. It's often forgotten, there's never been a Palestinian state. The Jordanians illegally took the West Bank and declared themselves King of Jerusalem. the West Bank and declared themselves King of Jerusalem. King Abdullah of Jordan declared himself King of Jerusalem. Lovely title. And he's the only King of Jerusalem of recent times, which is rather fun. Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the Poisoner's Cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive but to

conquer whether you're preparing for assassin's creed shadows or fascinated by history and great stories listen to echoes of history a ubisoft podcast brought to you by history hits there are new episodes every week In 1967, the Israelis took the other half and they united the city. The Israelis marched into the so-called West Bank, annihilated the Jordanian army. Although I must point out, because I got slapped on the wrist by the BBC, with enormous provocation from the Jordanians and other Arab armies. That's true, enormous provocation. I mean, NASA was actually about to sort of invade on three fronts

with the Syrians and the Jordanians. So the Israelis were actually... I mean, now it's looked back as a sort of... We've changed our view, but then the Israelis were regarded as the underdogs. Yeah, yeah. Massive pre-emptive strike, took out the Egyptian officials on the ground. Amazing military victory, which no one really expected in six days. Took Sinai off the Egyptians.

Took Sinai, the Golan Heights. And then advanced all the way up. So after that, that led to 81, the declaration, I think it was 81, of annexation of Jerusalem. So in effect, since 67, Jerusalem has been, for all intents and purposes except international law, has been the capital of Israel.

But I am very much against Donald Trump declaring it the capital now unilaterally. I think everything unilateral in the Middle East is a bad idea for a start. Secondly, though for all intents and purposes, Israel is the Israeli capital. And the parliament's in Jerusalem. The parliament, the Knesset is there, the prime minister's office is there. And frankly, all foreign leaders go there. It's one of these kind of preposterous international sort of niceties, diplomatic niceties, rather like the strange American relationship with Taiwan and China, for example.

But the fact is, it serves a purpose, which is the fact that the Israelis, I think, are following policies there of sort of, you know, favouring Jewish areas over Palestinian areas and so forth, which aren't right. Of course it should be the capital of both states, both peoples. And Donald Trump, by suddenly declaring this in his slightly ignorant way, is really giving away a point that should have been bargained for. That's the odd thing. He's the arch dealmaker.

He just gave them a big chip in return for absolutely nothing. And of course he's undermining... I mean, there is a sort of peace process, a very interesting peace process, which involves the Saudis, which could lead to great things in the Middle East. Donald Trump's just gone and undermined his own peace process and is so often mutilating his own policies. So anyway, this should have been given as a confidence-giving measure

in return for the Israelis giving something to the Palestinians. So I believe it's a big mistake. Amazing. Well, that was a rampage through the history of one of the world's most famous and historically central cities. Simon, your book is Jerusalem, a biography. Jerusalem, the biography. Jerusalem, the biography.

I've got to say, after the podcast I did with you the other day, your Red Sky at Dawn. Red Sky at Noon. Red Sky at Noon. Red Sky at Noon. Let's get that right. After we talked about Red Sky at Noon, I went and read said book, and it's infuriatingly good. Oh, thank you.

I'm so pleased. You're such a good novelist. Oh, thank you. It's so annoying. I mean, you're a brilliant historian. I can swallow that, but I mean, it's just outrageous that you start writing brilliant novels. Thank you.

Congratulations. Thank you. And remind me what's next? What's coming up? Well, I'm not sure, actually. We've got a lot of movie stuff. You're doing movie stuff, aren't you? Well, a lot of movie stuff's happening.

I mean, we've got people lot of movie stuff. You're doing movie stuff, aren't you? Well, a lot of movie stuff's happening. I mean, we've got people trying to make drama series of Romanoff's and Jerusalem and we might have some Lionsgate is making Jerusalem into a sort of Game of Thrones-like miniseries, hopefully. But we've also got Angelina Jolie's making Catherine the Great, supposedly. And so all the rights have been sold in this new Netflix-driven stampede for material. So hopefully something, young Stalin's being made,

Stalin and the Red Sands, it's all happening. So exciting times. Exciting times. Well, you can find out more right here, everyone. Thank you very much, Simon. That was fantastic. Thank you. I feel the hand of history upon our shoulders.

All this tradition of ours, our school history, our songs, this part of the history of our country, all were gone. And finished. And liquidated. One child.

One teacher. One book. Hi, everyone. It's me, Dan Snow. Just a quick request. It's so annoying, and I hate it when other podcasts do this, but now I'm doing it,

and I hate myself. Please, please go onto iTunes, wherever you get your podcasts, and give us a Dan Snow. Just a quick request. It's so annoying, and I hate it when other podcasts do this, but now I'm doing it, and I hate myself. Please, please go onto iTunes, wherever you get your podcasts, and give us a five-star rating and a review. It really helps, and basically boosts up the chart, which is good, and then more people listen, which is nice. So if you could do that, I'd be very grateful. I understand if you don't want to subscribe to my TV channel. I understand if you don't want to buy my calendar,

but this is free. Come on, do me a favour. Thanks.