Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset - From Addiction to Building a $115M Recovery Empire: The Incredible Story of Eric Spofford

Episode Date: August 10, 2026

In this powerful episode of The Determined Society, Shawn French sits down with Eric Spofford — entrepreneur, recovery advocate, mentor, father, and founder who built and sold a recovery business for $115 million. Eric opens up about surviving addiction, his fifth overdose, the moment of surrender that led him to sobriety on December 7, 2006, and the deeper work it took to rebuild his life. He shares how recovery became more than abstinence — it became a path of spiritual growth, personal development, service, and purpose. From opening sober houses to building treatment centers and scaling a company to a nine-figure exit, Eric's story is one of relentless reinvention. But this conversation goes far beyond addiction and business. It explores the loneliness of success, the relationships you lose when you grow, the truth about money and fulfillment, and the character it takes to keep moving forward when life tests everything in you. In this episode, we dive into: Eric's fifth overdose and the reality of late-stage addiction Getting sober on December 7, 2006 What surrender really meant for him The difference between abstinence and true recovery Losing friends to the opioid epidemic Building sober houses and treatment centers Scaling a recovery business to a $115M exit Learning business through relentless self-education The loneliness that comes with success Why money and material things do not create fulfillment Fatherhood, character, loyalty, and human connection This is a raw conversation about addiction, recovery, loss, leadership, success, money, loneliness, and the determination to rebuild a life that once felt impossible to save. Connect with Eric Spofford Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ericspofford/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjv2eT-tACaCYO18wSllyNg LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-spofford-grc Connect with Shawn: https://link.me/shawnmf32 Newsletter + more: https://thedeterminedsociety.com Follow The Determined Society Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/determined-society-with-shawn-french-adversity-mindset/id1555922064 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5kS9tkLGQLcVyRgB3mDznw?si=184c18d1b9d44f53 The Determined Society is hosted by Shawn French — a show for people who refuse to quit. Every episode goes beyond the highlight reel to explore the real stories behind resilience, reinvention, and the relentless pursuit of a life built on your own terms. Subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all others.. If this episode moved you, share it with someone who needs to hear it — and leave a review. It helps more than you know. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I had a bunch of cash. I had a bunch of drugs. I didn't know this girl from a hole in the wall. I woke up and I was in, I think it's called Mercy Hospital. And had tubes coming out of me from everywhere. And it was my fifth time. And I remember looking over and seeing her and looking around. My first question was, where's my shit?

Yeah, and she was like, I hit it outside before the ambulance and the cops got there. You're good. Wow. I was like, I love this girl. And 31 days after I got sober, she died, an overdose. What does surrender mean to you? Praying, I reached out to God, you know, sincere. probably for the first time, I'll do anything and everything I have to do to get sober.

What skills did you learn in that time that you can't learn anywhere else? Starting a business at 23 years old and selling it for $150 million. I had no idea what I was doing. I had no idea. The one thing I did have was I had an obsessive drive and I had the ability to learn. I've never been a quitter. I've never been a guy that you can pressure into Tappen. It's never going to happen.

I'd rather fucking die. But I could see why people would want to in that moment. What does true determination mean to you? Have a Ben break of force. They quit. We don't quit around you. Giving up isn't an option. And you're either going to get to whatever it is you want to get to achieve,

or you're going to die in the process. Eric Spofford, welcome to the Determined Society. Good to be here. Hey, man, I'm so glad to have you. I want to start before the money, before the treatment centers. I want to start with the fifth overdose. Take me to that room of what actually happened. The fifth overdose, I was in Portland, Maine.

It was probably several months before the date I got sober, which is December 7th, 2006, almost 20 years ago. I had been staying with, I was at a halfway house. It was a backstory on it. I left the halfway house, you know, it was my umpteenth time trying to get sober. and a guy had left and moved in with a girl and I had come home drunk and got kicked out

and so I went and stayed with him and for me I'm an alcoholic but at my core is drug addiction and so alcohol very quickly turned back into drugs I went out ripping running that night I remember that somehow I had gotten a bunch of coke and a bunch of heroin and I had locked myself in the bathroom

of this poor girl's house home and and was intravenously using cocaine. I was shooting up cocaine all night. And my friend who was at the halfway house woke up in the morning and was like, dude, you're a

mess. You've got to get out. You have to leave. I'm sorry. And so I ended up walking out and it was early hours of the morning and I had met this girl her name was Lindsay Healy. And I think she

sold me drugs I sold her drug I just met her on the street and I called her and she's like yeah come to my apartment and so I went to her apartment at like six in the morning and I was getting high and I ran out of coke and as I was running out of coke I swallowed a bunch of Xanax to come down off the coke eye and I got impatient for the Xanax to work to kind of take me down off of you know the fiend for the coke and so I was in the bathroom and I uh I loaded up a dose of heroin or shot of heroin and that was the last thing I remember

so I you know the mixture of benzos, Xanax and heroin I'm sure the Coke didn't help put me out and so I went out I overdosed and at the time I had a handgun on me I had a bunch of cash I had a bunch of drugs I didn't know this girl from a hole in the wall

and I woke up and I was in I think it's called Mercy Hospital in Portland Maine and had tubes coming out of me from everywhere and it was my fifth time so it kind of you know the drill by then and I remember looking over and seeing her and looking around and um my first question was where's my shit really yeah she's like i hit it outside before the ambulance and the cops got there you good wow I was like I love this girl wow and I ended up going on a six-month comic cause oh yeah probably the last so there's maybe six

months before I got sober because that's when I linked up with her that was the first day we were together. I stayed with her until the day that I got sober. So about six months later, and then 31 days after I got sober, she died in an overdose. It was a real hell on wheels. Damn. So the moment, this is very interesting to me, right? The moment you came to in the hospital, where's my shed? And then you said six months later you got cleaned. So you continued using after that fifth overdose. Was any part of you scared that this might happen again or just at that point? You wished it would. You wished it would. Yeah, I was ready to go. Yeah. Man. Yeah, the last relapse that I went on, I said tell people, this is a kamikaze mission at the end of this. You know, I'm probably dead.

And I just tried to get sober so many times. And in the pain of addiction, especially late stage, right, after you find recovery, after you relapse, after you've done it multiple times, you just lose any hope that you're ever going to be able to make it out. And your life is categorically just miserable, consistent suffering. And so, you know, I would wake up being withdrawals coming off drugs, be desperate for money, desperate for drugs to get drugs just to not be sick, not being in withdrawals. So I'd be in pain and, you know, just sick and just miserable.

And then I would get high, which would release. all of those symptoms. But the second I got high, I would obsess about how I should be sober and, you know, I'm fucking my life up and all this stuff. So at the end, like, even the drugs stopped working. Like, there was no peace.

In the beginning, at least the drugs got me high. And while I was high, I was having a great time. But eventually, you know, you kind of grow into late-state addiction and there's just no peace for you. And so I was just ready, you know. And I had no intention on getting sober until the day that I did. So is that what made,

December of 2006 different. So, you know, because a lot of times, I like that, was it a moment? You know, was it a person or were you just flat out exhausted? I think that, I think the fact that I took the governor off of my relapse and went 110 miles an hour hoping that I hit a brick wall at the end of it certainly helped because it, it beat me up enough, beat me up enough and exhausted me enough that the early morning of December, seventh that year 2006, I was ready. It just, I think I had been through enough at that moment.

It provided me this brief opportunity of a moment of clarity and surrender. Yeah. What does surrender mean to you? Giving up. Giving up all your old ideas. Giving up, you know, everything that, all the conditions. People often put conditions on change, right? Yeah, I'll give up getting high.

I'll give up drinking. I'll get on the diet. I'll make this positive change in my life, when and if, and then there's all this like contractual agreements. Like, I need this and I need that and, you know, this, that, the other thing, surrender for me in that moment was,

one, praying, I reached out to God, you know, sincerely, probably for the first time, and had this core, I'll do anything and everything I have to do to get sober without condition. That's beautiful. So it stopped being a quid pro quo.

Yeah. And into like, let me tell you guys. Because before it was always attached to like, well, I'll give up heroin, but I won't give up weed. Or, well, I'll give up all of it,

but I need a job in a car and a girlfriend. It was just all this like, yeah, just at the end of it, just put my hands up and it was like, whatever it is, it is. Dude.

Well, congratulations, man. That's amazing. You know, it's interesting because you, you laid out how you felt when you were sober, right? When you were coming down

and you're going through the withdrawals, your body hurt, you just needed to be high so that feeling went away. But eventually, right? And then when you're high, you're worried, I should be sober.

I'm messing my life up. You were living a double-edged sword this cycle for so long that it's truly incredible, man. Yeah. It really is. You know, so you were two years sober, right? Let's fast forward a little bit.

Two are sober. And you get your dad to back alone for a house. you know, and there was going to be 11 other addicts in there with you trying to get clean. What made him say yes? I don't know. It's probably a bad idea. It actually wasn't, though, right?

It didn't end up being a bad idea, but if you looked at my track record of how many times I'd gotten sober, relapsed, built my life up and destroyed it again and again and again, you know, it was probably against people's better judgment to do that. But I think he believed in me. You know, there was a moment where my dad's perspective, because I had broken the man's heart so many times. I had promised it was going to be one way and then went back the other way over and over and over again.

And he was my whole world. He was my guy. He raised me, you know. I love my dad more than anything on earth. And when I celebrated a year sober, I had a home group in a 12-step meeting. It was a men's meeting. And I invited him to come down.

And for the first year, he didn't really, he didn't really want too much to do with me. Like, he kept a healthy distance, you know. Like, I'd heard him so many times that he just, you know, I don't blame him. But when I put together that year of sobriety, you know, there's a lot of traditions and recovery and 12-step culture. And so, you know, you typically what's called chair the meeting, which you tell your story, and then they celebrate you and they present you with a metal coin. It's just 12 months on it. And I invited my dad down to that meeting. And my dad sat in that meeting with me

in this old mill building in this meeting hall that was in a state-funded detox center with like 50, 60 other guys and I shared my story with my dad sitting there was the first time he ever heard me tell my story of addiction but more importantly my story of recovery. And then he listened to the second half of the meeting

was the testimony of all the men who had been there and a lot of them sober for 10, 20, 30, 40 years even about what they'd witnessed of me over the last year. And so he never, I don't think he at that point would believe anything I told him, but when he heard it from all these other guys that had no reason to lie, I think that moment was he started to believe in me

and it unlocked the path forward to a meaningful relationship with him. And then after that, he saw how passionate I was about helping people prior to ever get in the sober house and all that stuff. And so, you know, he bought in. There was proof then, right? There was evidence that you were on the right track and that potentially you wouldn't break his heart again.

I mean, you're a dad. I'm a dad. I have three children. How many children do you? Three. Could you imagine the pain that he must have felt, you know, just... I can't. Yeah.

I think about it all the time. My oldest son's 15 now. And when I was 15, that's the year I got on, serious drugs. Yeah. And I look at him and he's such a good kid and he's nothing like me. You know what I mean?

He still hasn't drank or smoked for the best of my knowledge, but he grew up with me in recovery and others that are close in his life and he's seen how positive sobriety can be and he's seen the effects of drugs and alcohol. So luckily he's made good decision so far.

But I look at him and I'm like, I couldn't imagine. Yeah. I couldn't imagine, you know. I was 17 years old. the day that I told my dad I was a heroin addict and asked them for help. And my dad owned like this little construction company doing tree removal and excavation. And my whole life was me and him working together.

And it was a hot summer day. And I'll never forget it. I was running a chain. So I was like 10.30 in the morning. July was this month. It was July. And I was sick. I used to get high before work just to get through the day.

And I was sick. I was in withdrawals. I kept sneaking off into the woods, puke it. And I just wanted to die. It was terrible. You know, logging, cutting down trees, you know, in withdrawals. It was like the worst thing that could possibly happen. And I remember, I was just like, I can't do this.

And I put down the saw, and I just walked up. My dad was running an excavator. And I jumped on the track. And I was like, I got to talk to you. That's what I told him. I said, you know, I'm addicted to drugs. I'm addicted to heroin. My dad being my dad, you know, made a joke out of it.

He said, oh, that's good. I thought you were just fucking stupid. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, he was kidding, but, you know, beyond that, there wasn't that much funny in that moment. I think about that now when I look at my kids, and I'm like, I couldn't imagine being their dad and them telling me that, you know, how earth-shattering

and world-changing, that is. That's a powerful moment, man, you know, to go to your dad in the middle of work, you know, because you're having all those symptoms of withdrawal, and just pain. Would you call that a moment of surrender? A hundred percent. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, the first time, that moment was the first time I honestly asked for help and was willing to do something about it. And we did. We shut the machine off. We went back to our home.

We opened up the phone book when the yellow pages and looked for help, called a place, and that's when I received, you know, addiction treatment for the first time. as outpatient detox.

And, you know, they gave me detox beds. They got me off the stuff. And I lasted a little while and then... How long did you last? That time, probably a month. Yeah, but from 17 till almost 22 years old was categorized by consistently trying to get sober, getting help, relapsing, going back,

part of my life to the ground, just over and over and over again. That moment though, you know, on the tractor, we got up on the excavator, that also took a lot of courage too, right? To finally be like, this is it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, look at back, I think the greatest lesson

out of that moment to the time where I got sober and all the times that I tried and failed was, it really was about internal change more than it was not using a substance. Yeah. And so I just thought I could put heroin down and go on and live my life. And the difference maker for anyone that's either struggling themselves or knows that someone that is was almost 20 years ago, I immediately launched into recovery and adopted, you know, essentially is like personal development,

spiritual growth tools through 12 step originally. And I've expanded that into a lot of other stuff, you know, over that time period. And that action-based moving my feet, producing change is what allowed me to sustain abstinence. But I put my effort into the recovery process, the personal development work, the spiritual growth, helping others. And that is what was different because previous to that, I would put my efforts into just trying to remain abstinent from drugs and alcohol, which I'm totally incapable of doing. Despite having almost 20 years of sobriety. I focus on these things and abstinence is a byproduct of it. Well, you know, when you said that,

I thought of something that I learned probably in 2008 or nine is what we resist persists. Yeah. You focus on another element of it, the core principles, right? Spirituality, God, everything like that. That was a massive shift in a difference maker in the result. Yeah, man.

Because that's your daily actions. It's not focused on the other thing. It's focused on the good things. and that's why you've been able to do this. So it's pretty awesome, man. Absolutely. It's pretty awesome. You know, when you look back at the 15-year-old all the way to 22,

you had mentioned drugs gave you that solace a little bit, right? But what was it giving you that nothing else could at 15 years old? Drugs? I don't know. You know, I had a lot of fun. There is. It wasn't like, I don't know. I think it gets painted this picture like, oh, you are,

lonely and you know you needed to fit in and you needed to that wasn't my I had a lot of friends I was a popular kid I you know we had for a period of time there at the time of my life like the party was great we had a blast you know it just by the time the lights come on and the music stops and you realize that you're pretty far down the rabbit hole with addiction it's too late you know but in the beginning I was just I don't know I don't know why it just might entire life since I was a kid was kind of extreme and operated outside of, you know, the societal norms. And so I was like having, you know, using drugs, drinking, partying, going to raves, have house parties, you know, just it was a blast. It was a great time. So it was all or nothing.

It was like, I mean, they're at zero or a thousand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That, that, I have those qualities, right? So when I dive into something. If I if I can't do it, the best of my thing. I think it's the same quality I think drives successful people as much as it does people that are wrapped up in the wrong things. Yeah. You know? Yeah. When you when you realize you're down that rabbit hole that you spoke about of drug addiction. Like it's got you. What was that initial feeling like? What did you say to yourself? When did I realize I had a problem and I was addicted? No, like when you, yeah, the moment that you're like, I'm down that rabbit hole. It's got me. What was your

thought process like and what did you say to yourself? I remember I had been getting high on opiates for a little while right? That's really what got me. It was like it was oxycotton and turned into heroin. And so I'd been using

that for a little bit maybe at the time a year or so. And I used them all the time. I loved it. And we partied every day. And it was just me and a hundred other kids just like me, you know. And after a while, I was like, you know, I've been using these things a lot.

I'm going to take a break from using them. We didn't know. You talk about like America's opioid epidemic and it's turned into fentanyl and all. We were the first generation of that. Yeah. I was doing oxycodone in 1999, right? People didn't even know what it was. Yeah.

It wasn't national news or anything like that. So I had no idea about addiction. and nothing about it. And so I was just chilling at the house in my bedroom and thought for a couple days that I was sick. I thought I had the flu. So I was just like you would when you have the flu. Like, you know, watch a movie.

Yeah, laying on the couch and a blanket, chilling, right? My friend Dominic de Zazzo, God bless his soul, rest and peace. And he came, he walked up to my house from one of our other friend's houses in the middle of the winter. He's all hot. comes in.

He's like, what's up? I'm like, what's up? What are you doing? I'm like, ah, bro, I got the flu. I don't feel well. And he looked at me, he goes, when's the last time you got high? I was like, oh, bro, it's been a couple of days.

And he looked at me and was like, bro, you ain't got the flu? I was like, what do you mean? He's like, bro, you dope sick. I'd never even heard the word before. And I was like, what do you mean? He was like, bro,

These things, you get addicted to these things. After a while using them, you've got to keep using them. Or when you don't, you get sick. I didn't even know. And in that moment, I remember my heart kind of like sank, and I was like, oh, this might be bad. And he had drugs on him. And he's like, you know, here, do this.

And so I got high and instantaneously felt better. And in that moment was the first time that I was like, I'm caught in a cycle. You know, but I still had a lot of confidence. I'm like, I could stop when I want to. When I really want to, I can stop. Yeah. You know?

And, but that was the first time that I was like, oh, this is a problem. Because before you're just having fun. You're with your buddies. You're with a bunch of people. We were doing it, right? Just your party had fun. Yeah. Yeah, it didn't.

Exactly. Yeah. Just having a great time. Let's, that's, that's such an important thing for the audience to hold on to because there's an 18-year-old right now. listening to the show and thinks they're just having a good time. What would you say to them? Oh, man.

You know, when I look back, I think an easier way to frame that is like, what would I have said to myself back then? And some of the stuff that I believe really hurt me and it's just a, I guess, a part of being young was I thought I was Superman and I thought I was invincible and I thought I couldn't get hurt. and I just, I don't know, I didn't pay much attention to the future. Yeah. Like the idea of growing up and becoming an adult and what my life would look like and it like wasn't even a thought. It's too far out. It's too, yeah.

And, you know, I just point them in the direction of looking and understanding that this isn't just like no big deal in your youth. You know, you can do this and do that and you'll deal with that later. Like what you do from 14 to 18. right, or 14 to 21 even, is the foundation for the rest of your life. Like, most people really set the course of the trajectory of their life as a teenager. It's kind of like pulling the bow and arrow back and pointing in a direction. And then when you hit an adult, turn an adult, you let it go.

And that hour's ripping in one direction. And once that arrow rips, it's very, very difficult to change course. I think that's what a lot of people don't respect enough is how challenging change actually is and how few people actually achieve it. I look back at my life, I talk about this a lot because it means a lot to me

and I think about them every day even though it's kind of morbid, but I think about like that time period of being young and having all those friends and not a care in the world. And we used to have a lot of parties at my house. And, you know, my room was the basement, the underfloor of the house up north. And we used to open up these two doors, this bulkhead doors to go to the backyard.

And we'd run speaker wire out to these giant speakers. And there would be, we'd have kegs. We'd have keg parties. And we'd have boxes, like big box, 50-pack boxes, a Philly Blunts. We used to break those things open and roll up the blunts. And we'd have, you know, Biggie Smalls and Tupac and, you know, all the bumping on the big speakers and we're drinking beers and taking shots and smoking blunts and this politics happening and deals happening and and i remember the parties and you know we did this hundreds of times

and i can visualize it i can i can like walk through the party and see all these people that were like family to me that i loved and i think almost every single one of them with only a few exceptions instead. And, damn, you know what, and I'm talking 16, 17 year old kids. Good kids,

great kids, you know, kids that if you met today, if they made it out, that you'd love them. Huge personalities, funny, you know,

chrismatic, like all that. And in that moment, like none of us knew what, what I know now. Like, we were totally ignorant to,

to what was actually happening in that moment was the, the breeding ground of America's suburban opioid epidemic and an overdose death rate that would

be the black plague of our generation and it would kill it off. Like I say with a straight face very factually that almost every single person I grew up with is dead and most of them died of overdoses and very

few of them made it out. And for whatever reason you know. Whatever reason I'm one of them, one of very few. But so, you know, to answer your question, bringing the realities of the future in trying to have a sober conversation with a young man and to the extent that you can get them to understand that.

That's beautiful. Because nobody was aware of what the future was going to look like for any of us. I mean, it's a sad story and it's heartbreaking. Beautifully articulated though, right? because you don't know what you're building for the future. And as you said, from 14 to 21 or whatever the ages, I think you said 14 to 21, you're pulling back the string on the bow and arrow.

And once you're an adult, you let that thing go. And that's the trajectory of your life. It's what you know. And I don't think kids are thinking about it like that right now, right? They're looking at it as we're having fun. I've had someone very close to me, one of my baseball players, take a quarter of a percassette, get an arm injury. And it was laced with fitness.

and he died. Yep. It was three years the other day. Frequent story, man. Yeah, man. It is one of the closest kids to me that I've ever had. Yeah. And I still talk to his parents all the time and it's heartbreaking.

You know, I can't imagine going through something like you've gone through and can honestly say that very few people from your childhood are still alive. Now, we all know that as we grow up, we lose touch with people, we go in different routes. But to know that they didn't make it out and here you are. and you have a chance to make an impact, and you've done that. Yeah. You know, I mean. I think those people, you know, I think about them every day.

And, you know, I'm 41 years old, and all of them are either, we lost some as teenagers, and we lost a lot in our 20s. And by the time, by the time I got to my mid, early mid-30s, mid-30s, it was over. There was no one left to die. They were all gone. And so they're 20-something, 30-something, forever. You know?

And, you know, they're a big motivator for me. I don't talk about this part of it a lot, but I think about a morning, day, and night. I take them with me everywhere I go, and I do a lot of the stuff that I've done throughout my life in honor of them. That's amazing. You know? That's amazing, man.

Yeah, I miss them. I bet. I bet. You know, but you're honoring their memory. You know, you took the accountability, the responsibility, and you've helped so many people, dude. So many people. And everybody always talks about what their purpose is or how do they serve people?

You know, how do they do they do what they need to do? And I think it's truly taking who you once were and helping those people. You did that. Let's go to the recovery houses, right? One to 15, 300 employees and then a nine-figure exit. Yeah. What skills did you learn in that time that you can't learn anywhere else? Oh, man.

You know, one of the greatest secrets about that story of starting a business at 23 years old and selling it at, God, how old was I? It was four years ago? It was 37 maybe, 36. For $150 million, you know, 13 years later is I had no idea what I was doing. I had no idea. I didn't have a fucking clue. Not one.

And the one thing I did have was I had an obsessive drive. and I had the ability to learn and find resources that I needed and figure it out. And so every step of the way, like, I had no idea what I was doing. My father was like, what are you doing? You have no idea what you're doing. He's like, he told me not to do it so many times. I was like, I'm going to start this giant rehab and we're going to take insurance and we're going to help people.

And, you know, I have to sign for these big loans and this, that, the other thing, he was like, don't do that. What are you thinking? Yeah. It's a bad idea. So I developed every skill set. You know, through that process and everything even since then turned me into a well-rounded businessman and entrepreneur. And, you know, there's not a corner of business that I don't speak fluently.

Everything from, I hate to learn, you know, business basics, operations to finance, to accounting, to marketing, to sales, to IT, to human resources. to, and then at every breakpoint, right? Like running a business as a solopreneur with a couple sober houses, you know, I've got the checkbook every month doing the bills, I'm, you know, doing it all myself to hiring my first employee, that poor son of a bitch, for any business owner, if you remember your first employee, right?

Yeah. Feel bad for that guy. To, you know, the business growing by sites, by services, by size, by employees, by clients, by revenue. There were so many breakpoints and plateaus that in order to get from here to here, I had to recreate my knowledge base, my skill set. I had to learn because what worked at this level breaks at this level over and over and over again. You know, it was a story of relentless work, but also,

relentless self-education. There's so much power in that, though. Yeah. Right? You could have people there to consult you and do it for you, but you don't learn anything. I don't think I actually had the people to do it for me. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

You know, like I had to figure it out. Yeah. I mean, when you do something completely different than anybody else that in your circle has ever done. Yeah. For example, what I'm doing, I don't have anybody in my circle that's done this. I had to figure it out. Me and my wife. We're growing.

We have a team now. I've got support. But I know what it looks like on the other side. at the beginning, right? And the other thing that I think I know you possess, one thing you didn't say is you're also the first patient of one of your sober houses. So you have that patient perspective too,

which allowed you to understand truly what these patients needed. Yeah, man. It's amazing. What does that do to you? You know, you're the boss, but you're also a patient. How does that sit? I wouldn't consider, I lived at the sober house, kind of more as the house manager than I would say a patient,

but I had been a patient to many rehabs and a client to many sober houses prior to that. So I had a lot of lived experience sitting in our client's shoes, right? Not a lot different between me and them except for time and work, you know? Yeah. And so I don't know that I fully understand the question. Like, what did it do to me? I don't know, man. I was just, the business for me was very relatable.

Like, I understood what they were going through. That's awesome. It made me, I think it gave, I guess I would say that it made me impactful in a way that a lot of other people may not be able to because I can relate with them in a deep level of lived experience. Yeah. I know what it's like to show up with, you know, your duffel bag moving into a halfway house. I've done it 20 times. Yeah. Right.

Right. I've been in detox, you know, taking medication and coming off another relapse filled of shame. grant remorse like oh my god can't even look at yourself in the mirror done that plenty too and so you know being able to sit down with the patience and be relatable and you know you come in and you don't look like one of them because you've been sober for a while and you cleaned up but then you start telling stories and you can earn their trust through the credibility of the stuff that you've been through and your experience very quickly and then you kind of are able to get a hook into them and you're someone they'll listen to.

What are you up to now? You're mentoring, entrepreneurs? Yeah, you're writing books. I have a portfolio of businesses in real estate that I oversee and manage with the team. So we have a couple treatment centers, one in Ohio, one in Pennsylvania, got real estate assets all over,

got reintegration, sober living business in California. I got construction-related companies, developing real estate, building 100 units pretty soon, up in New Hampshire, mixed-use project. So I got my hands full. So you're back in the facilities and construction.

How can you keep all it straight? Great team. That's awesome, man. Yeah, good people, you know, good people. What part of business and building business and scaling them do you join most? Say it again. What part of the business in scaling them,

no matter what vertical you're in, what do you love most about all that? I think real entrepreneurs are very similar to artists in a way. where like having this idea and then working hard, putting together a team, bringing in resources, taking a big risk. And then there's this moment where you sit back

and it all comes together and you're like, wow. You know, I remember when I just was laying in bed one day and thought that, you know what we should do? I have an idea. This would be great. And then, you know, when it all comes together and it's executing the plan and it's successful, and you've created economy, you've created jobs,

you're helping people, you get to lead a team, you get to work side by side with really cool people. That's my favorite piece of it. That's pretty awesome. Let's say that's all about leadership. Yeah, absolutely. It has nothing to do with you. It has nothing to do with your pocketbook,

your bank account, nothing like that. Or an exit. It has to do with being a giver and helping somebody else along in their career. Can you think of anybody that you've ever employed, right? It has gone through your companies and you've seen them grow from the very beginning, maybe even out of addiction and then turn into someone completely just unstoppable in their careers. Oh, man, I have so many examples of that.

I mean, even my right hand at work now, my chief operating officer, Lori, she started with me. She oversees all of this, you know, by my side as my number two. And she started as my executive assistant more than seven years ago. Damn. You know, now she's chief operating officer. I had, you know, during my career or time spent at Granted Recovery, the business that I built and sold, we had countless people that came in as patients,

that I had them in group. I was running recovery groups with them. I remember them and that have gone off to do tremendous things. Many of them in that business, many of them outside of that business, but had the privilege and the honor and opportunity to watch them, come up. You know, we had at one time most of the executive directors, the people running the various facilities, as well as the mid-level management, the operations directors, the director of case management, these roles were all people at that business that at one time had been patients. They were

all alumni of the program. And so that was one of the special sauce pieces of it was like, you would go in there and talk to the person who's running the rehab you're at and like, you don't know what this is like. and they're like, I got sober here. I slept in room seven. Like, you know what I mean? Now I'm running the place. I know exactly what this is like. Yeah.

You know? So I've had, yeah, that's been a really cool part of the process as watching other people grow. It's got to make you proud, man. It's got to make you proud to see somebody come out like that and become a C-O-O. Yeah.

I mean, that's sick. Yeah. You know? Damn. What has been one of the most adverse moments in growing your businesses that you think that you've gone through? there's a lot about success that they don't tell you. And it's an interesting paradox of a separation between two worlds.

The world that, you know, I would say that I was in when I was trying to make it and the one that I got to after. And they don't warn you about jealousy and envy and in all the unintended consequences that will come with finding success. Now, if you go and sit at a table with my social circle now and many of my friends are successful people, high net worth, you know, people that have accomplished amazing things in their life, you bring this topic up and everyone has a hundred stories, it's a common thing, we've all been through it, we're relatable to each other.

but until you kind of walk through this valley across this bridge of what it was to what it is, you don't meet those people. And you get stuck between two worlds. You're leaving this one. You've outgrown the world that you were in, but you haven't quite grown into the world that you're about to fit into, and you're stuck between two. That process for me was incredibly painful.

Because I've never and still don't, no matter how much money I've made, the assets I bought, you know, the things I've owned, the attention that I've got, whatever it's been, I've never thought of myself as any different as every other single person that I've ever met. Like, I'm just a guy, you know?

But having the realization that they felt differently about me and starting to have the stress and tension in those relationships and, like, you go out and you work your face off, you take on all that risk, You give it everything you've got and you go out and I remember the first exotic car I bought was a Lambo Huracon Mm-hmm and I got the car and this is in New Hampshire

There's not a lot Lamborghinis driving around New Hampshire not a lot and I remember like taking it and like and I remember like showing people and like I was like oh This is not the reaction I expected Isn't that crazy you don't like oh yeah man. That's cool nice man. Yeah cool and like you're like you're like Oh, got it. You're really not that happy for me. And that amplified itself on a large stage. I can relate to this one. Yeah.

All right. So it's always cool when you first start because people can still relate to you. Once you get to the middle part and you're crossing that bridge, that valley, and you start to get over an inch your way over here. Yeah. That is the most lonely part of the journey. That is hard. It is painful.

and nobody talks about that. You're right. They don't talk about where you were or where you're going, but they sure is shit don't talk about the middle. That middle is unbearably lonely. Yeah. And painful. I believe it's one of the reasons a lot of people tap out and quit.

And they go back to, you know, they retreat back to the guys in their softball league and their bud lights and, you know, their Sunday cookouts. I remember this moment. I had bought this big mansion, 15,000 square foot house. There was a period of time of my life where I was like very hungry and very driven and I wanted everything.

And so I'm sitting in this giant mansion, six bay car garage or all these cars in it. And it's a nice Sunday afternoon, it's years and years ago, about that time period. And I remember looking on Facebook and there were all these people that were part of that world that I love to death. I really care about these people. and I see them they posted pictures like later that day and I had just been like

kind of sitting around bored not doing a lot and they had like a cookout or something and I was like maybe they just forgot and so I like remember like gently being like

oh yeah you guys had a little cookout oh yeah yeah yeah sorry about that it's just kind of last minute exactly there's like 50 people there exactly last minute last minute

last minute you got everybody there yeah and that was I remember that standing out and that felt like a fucking knife in my heart. And that stung. And I was like,

got it. But I had nowhere else to go. Those are the only people I had. I was like left with nothing. And I've never been a quitter. I've never been a guy that you can pressure into tapping. It's never going to happen. I'd rather fucking die.

But I could see why people would want to in that moment. Oh, 100%. That was like heartache. Like, you know, It was incredibly painful. And I didn't know at that time that I would eventually make it through to the other side to a world where I have the best friends that a guy could have. I have the most amazing Rolodex and network and friend group now.

Like they say, it's lonely at the time. I love saying this. They say it's lonely at the top. No, it's not. I met the best people on fucking planet earth once I got there. The journey to get there was treacherous, hard, difficult, painful, and lonely. It was miserable. But once I got there, it wasn't lonely at all.

I'm not lonely one bit. But getting here is terrible. Dude, I'm telling you, man, like, there's countless times. Yeah. Where I've gone to check in on somebody. No text back, no call back. Yeah, man, checking on you. Oh, no, you're big time.

What? Yeah. You know, but, but that's the hurtful part of it because they just assume that we've changed. We're the same person. This is just our job. That's not who we are. Yeah, no, I don't think the money changes you. I really don't.

I think the process itself changed me. Like at that moment, I had all the money, but I was still the same guy. I think the process of the heartbreak and everything you go through changed me into a different person. It wasn't the money. Yeah. They talk about, oh, you know, the 1%, the 1%, it's like, we're not, we're not, like, avoiding the world because we don't like you. Right. We're avoiding a lot of that. And we operate, you know, and stick to each other because you guys aren't that nice to us. You know, and so there's a lot of jealousy there, right?

Huge, huge, you know. But at the end of the day, like everything else, when shit hits the fan, you got to find the positive in absolutely everything. And I look back at the moments like you're talking about about. unreturned text messages or some major thing happens in your life, which has happened in my life many times. And you look around and you're like, we're about to find out who our friends are, you know? Yeah. Who's still standing?

And you find out who people really are. And that helps shape a lot of my world, a lot of my relationships. And it's funny. You know, when the shit happens, like who's standing with you? A month, two months, six months later, the dust settles, everything's cool. Everyone sees everything's fine.

It's back to normal. and people like, oh, hey, man, you know, it's like, now motherfucker, I remember. Yeah, I remember. I won't forget. Yeah, we're cool. I'm not going to bring it up, but certainly didn't miss that. Not to be vindictive either.

No, not at all. But I know if you ride with me or not. 100%. And that's the hard part about it, right? It's finding your people, but again, I keep saying the middle. It's just because it resonates with me so much. And for the listeners, you know,

and the people watching it, they might be going through that too. There's a shift, a journey that, you know, when you excel, you're going to leave people behind. Not because you want to, because they're not giving you a choice. Yeah. Yeah, no, you know, as you grow and they don't, this gap between where they're at and where you're at becomes bigger and bigger and

becomes harder and harder to manage. And unfortunately, it's impossible at this point, I believe, to drag them along with you. What do you think is the biggest misconception from, you know, People in the past, it could be anybody's past. The biggest misconception between what they think about people that have reached your type of monetary success or financial gain, what's the biggest misconception about people like you? That's a great question. What I was guilty of and I see in so many people is they believe that the money and the material stuff is,

going to be different and have a different impact than it really will and it doesn't it really doesn't you know like oh it must be nice to have all this stuff and you know when I get these things I feel like this is like this this lying core belief that a lot of people have and you know I've had the the great experience of doing all of it and finding out that you can buy a new car and then it gets dirty and the shine wears off. You can buy a new airplane and then they send it for maintenance

and send you a big bill and it breaks and you are cussing out the people like this sucks. You can buy yachts, you can, you know, go on track, you can do all this stuff and how people think about that and the actuality of what that's like is very different.

And I don't know that that is a lesson that can be taught. You know, I think a lot of people may know that, but the driven people, I think a lot of them have to find out. For me, you couldn't tell me any different. Eric's not all about the money.

You're like, yeah, I know. You're good dad and love God and pray and meditate every day. Help people, blah, blah, but also. I still want that boat. I'm going to get that. And so I don't know that that I could have ever fully gotten the kind of been there, done that wisdom

that I've achieved at this point without going through all of that. And the wisdom that I have on the other side of it is what I think that they don't know because they'd never been through the process. You brought up a really- They live in desire. At this point, I've desired it, gotten it, gotten it, gotten it to the point where I hated it.

I will never buy another fucking Lamborghini as long as I live. You hate them now. I hate Lamborghinis. Why is that? They're a pain in the ass. They're constantly breaking down. They're loud. They're uncomfortable.

girls don't even really like riding in them. You know what I mean? I get the Lambot, get the girl. You know, you put her in a SVJ with Roadster with the top off. Her hair's all over the place. She's miserable. It's like, put the top up. It's loud, you know.

And it's just, the more stuff you own, the more stuff owns you, the more shit you have to think about. And that's so valuable. Yeah. I think a lot of people, even on a smaller scale, let's take somebody that just buys a truck that they want or a car. because they hate the car that they're in, but they want that nicer vehicle.

They love it for a month. Exactly. And then after that, all the shit piles up in it, they spill coffee on it, they don't clean it anymore. Because now's just a thing. It's a total issue from A to B,

and it was neat for a second, but the novelty wears off. Yep. That happens all over. For sure. It's interesting. I mean, look, I think that when you look at all of that,

it's coming from you, it's so valuable because I've had conversations with my wife. Well, hey, our next house, this is what I want. But it comes from a different place now. Like, I haven't reached where you're at. But at least now I've made enough mistakes in car purchases and buying things to know that. Absolutely. That's not going to fulfill me. The problem with me before was a big void inside of me because I didn't think I was good enough.

That's what, and that would fix it. But it never did. no no the effect produced is not what you think it's going to be it's really not yeah and it just becomes the never-ending chase and pursuit for more I think that I think the exact topic that we're on is why there's so many people that achieve wealth and status and end up miserable and crazy drunk and high and mental health issues and their life's all fucked up you know yeah because they get there and they're like it's all a mirage you know this isn't that great yeah this isn't

isn't what I thought it was. And now your life's more complicated. You're, you know, when you think about like your, the things you need as a human being, you know, we're taught about food,

shelter, you know, et cetera. Like you need human connection. Yeah. And to the point that we were making earlier is that it complicates that. It complicates your relationships.

Yeah. Now, now, you know, once you become rich and you're wealthy, you have to look at everybody and size them. them up on the authenticity of their approach and their relationship.

And what do you actually want? There it is. You want to be my friend or you want something? And then you kind of wait them out and you, you know, watch them for a little bit. And they think they're coy and they do this and they do that and they show up. And then they come with the ask. You know, and it's like, okay, I understand. Yeah.

It becomes this inhibitor to human connection. and one of the things that's most important as a human being is human connection. Like you want to get to know God, get to know his kids. And so when those channels are are energetically constrained between you and other people because it's not only, it's broader than that too. It's, you know, people will approach you and they have an agenda. I have an acronym for it. It's called WIMF. They approach you with WIMF, which is what's in it for me.

You know what I mean? They're coming in and I'm going to meet Eric and I automatically am thinking about what's in it for me. What can I make out of this introduction instead of, let's be friends. What the hell? Let's get to know each other. And then the other thing that is crazy is, you know, whether it's, you know, notoriety, attention, wealth, status,

or whatever it is. But when you put all these things together, then people get nervous meeting you. And then when they get weird, I get weird. People get nervous. Like, hey, Eric, if you get weird, and awkward with me, I will be way more terrified and nervous than you are.

Of course. Trying to play it off. I'm like, oh, this is fucking weird. Get me the fuck's gone on. Yeah, get me out of here. Yeah. Get me out of here. You know? I can see what you're saying there. I have a lot of people ask, what do when you meet these people? I'm like, talk to them. Talk to them, yeah. They're people. Totally.

Like, come on. You know, because my next question was going to be, typically when you meet someone, do you have to vet out what they want from you? And you answered it. And I think everybody at some point that even reaches some perceivable success greater than where somebody else is at, you're always open for that. A hundred percent. Always. What are some of the things other than that ask, hey, I'm short a little bit, can I have some money? What are some of the things that you look out for that can

kind of decipher like whether, okay, I'm going to let you in or I'm going to keep you here? Character. For me, it's all character. Honor. And, you know, I have a lot of live. things that I'll size people up. I mean, you can look at people and look at their life and kind of tell who they are. One of them, like we're talking about being dads, is how you show up for your kids. Come on, man.

You know, I don't, you want to be my friend. If you're not a good dad, we're never going to be friends. Because if you can let your kids down like that, you don't know the first thing about loyalty and I have no business having any expectations for you, beyond what you've been able to do and show up for

your own blood, your own flesh. I like this one. Let's dig into that. That's one. Another, it sounds weird, but people that are punctual. Like, if you're not on time, it's probably enough that, like, I'm like, we're not going to be friends, you know. That's a respect thing, man. It's a respect. It is, but, you know, I'd rather you waste my money than my time, you know, I only have a limited, scarce amount of time. And so if you waste my time, you're quite literally wasting somebody's life force that we have a limited amount of. And it's self-centered and it's selfish.

And you put whatever you have going on ahead of, you know, whatever it is. Like this pocket is set for 12. I was in front of 1158. You know, they asked me to be here at 1145, but unfortunately it was already scheduled when they asked me this morning. But yeah, just on time, just character stuff, man, honor, you know. I love it. That's a good dad.

Oh, man. that's a great question. What's a good dad? I don't know. I think there's a lot of different philosophies on belief of what being a good dad is. I have friends that I do believe are good dads, that it looks differently for them than it does me. They believe that a dad is, you know, the time is meant to be more potent with their children and intentional. And they're going to learn by how you live.

and, you know, they live an honorable life and hard work and success and that. And, like, I don't, you know, I can get with that. That's not my style of being a good dad. Like, I'm very close with my kids. You look at my social media, I don't put them on there a lot because they're just like they didn't sign up for this. You know what I mean? So I put them on there a little bit because I believe that part of my message and the influence

that I've been able to have on people is to encourage people to be good dads. And I could see that that is meaningful and a good reason to be open kimono in that parent part of my life a lot. But I'm with my kids all the time. I bring them with me to everything. And so I'm just, I'm present. And I talk to them and I have relationships with them. And like, my dad was like that for me. And so I think a lot of it is how you're raised, right?

I think you can, men that had good dads can emulate what good dad meant for them and that men that maybe had fathers that had room for improvement can look and criticize their own experience and fill in those gaps of what they wish they had grown up. I think what's broken is when you have, you know, maybe a not so great experience with your parenting, you know, as a child or your parents parenting of you as you're a child and then you emulate and repeat the cycle with your own. own kids. Yeah, you don't break the cycle. Yeah, so listen to this stuff about my dad that I love. Like, I look at my childhood and I'm like, that was the best. My dad brought me everywhere. He owned this logging company I was telling you about and I was just, all I remember

as a kid is being with him all the time. He had his log truck. You know, it's like a truck with a cherry picker on it. Yeah. It picks logs up. And I sat in the front seat of that thing. My entire childhood, listening to the same three cassette tapes, Johnny Cash, Charlie Daniels.

You know, the devil went down to Georgia. Yeah, that's a good thing. My dad's smoking cigarettes, the windows are rolled up. I feel like I'm going to die. But, you know, it's that for me. And so I'm very much like that with my kids. My oldest is, you know, we're wrestling, we're playing around. He's at the gym lifting weights with me.

We're, you know, spending time together, going to do this, going to do that. I have my four, almost five-year-old boy. You know, I'm with him. I bring him with me everywhere. Like, he's known. Everywhere I go, he's known. And then I have a little baby. girl and she's six months old and you know spent a lot of time with her too yeah yeah so just being

present and showing up the best you can for me i i would agree you know it's not about the discipline it's not about the sternness like you could be a you're to learn to be a man that's how i was taught yeah and and i love my dad you know he's done a lot for me taught me what hard work is and how to go chase something that you really really want you got to put the work in the presence for me as a dad is is so much more important. I need to know that my kids can really feel the fact that I'm there for them and when it's their time,

if I'm not, if I'm home, it's locked in on them and that they can trust me with whatever they tell me and they know that I'm listening. It is so important for your kids to feel seeing.

See, I have one son who's 12 and then I have two daughters. I got a seven and a nine. Different deal. It is. It is because, you know, of course I have both, but like, you know,

girl dad, you know, this risk. is Alinas. I'm sorry, this is Mia's and this is Alinas. And, you know, it's always a reminder that I need to be there for them. And of course, I always need to be there for my son. That's my dude. Love him. Love all my kids. But it is different with the girls. I'm having to learn. And when your daughter gets older, you'll, you'll learn different parts of yourself. And they, and they're like very rough at the beginning. And then you grow through it. It gets really hard when there's two of them in the house

and they're around the same age and they're fighting everywhere because your caveman comes out. Yeah. And it's like, yo. But it's a beautiful experience, man. It softened you a lot. I'm looking for, a new girl, dad. You're going to love it.

You're going to love it. Probably one of the things I'm most excited about in my life now. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's really cool, man. Fatherhood's a great thing. I love to ask that question because we, you know, we've talked about your kids a little bit

and, you know, we talked about parenting. I just, there's new fathers out there. Yeah, man. They don't know what it's like to be a good dad. You know, or they think that the way that they were raised, like you said, is how they were supposed to parent. I remember before I had my son, I thought that, well, my son just got a line.

I'll just pop him one like I was. Yeah. Right? And it's like, yeah, I'm a whoop your ass. Try me. Yeah. And then you hold him for the first time. You realize there's no way in hell I'm ever putting a hand on you.

and that is powerful because that's called the breaking the cycle. That's what a good dad is. New dad's out there listening. Run your own race. Be your own good father. And I think for me, the one person that made me a great father and I'm still growing is my wife.

She's helped me accountable every step of the way. That's great. Every fuck up, bro. Yeah. That you fucked up tonight. Yeah. All right. Yeah,

I mean, like the barometer of being a good dad, there's a big difference. I think between trying to be a perfect dad and a good dad. Oh, yeah. Like, there's no such thing as a perfect dad. There's so many times I've looked back and go, I could have done that differently. You know, I could have done better at that, you know?

Yeah. But at the end of the day, I think, you know, if you can look at the man in the mirror and say you're doing your best for your kids, you're a good dad. If you look in the man in the mirror and you have a little bit of shame, regret, remorse, or like, oh, you know you could be doing or should be doing something and you're not,

then, you know, that tells you. you, that's a good barometer of what you need to be doing. It's information, right? Yeah, it's good feedback. Yeah, absolutely. It's not to shame yourself. It's not to, but also, I don't think there's anything wrong with going up to one of your kids and go, hey, I got that wrong. I messed up.

I've apologized to my son more than most people I've ever said sorry to. I love that. Yeah. All the time. Yeah. Do you forgive me? Got a little hot-headed with him, you know, not to say that he was right. He certainly, a little kid knows how to push my butts for sure.

You know, I don't want to kill him. Yeah. You know, it's like I sip out. and I, you know, I'm like, oh, man, I should have been more gentle with him. And having the humility to show you're human to him, which is not something I had growing up. Like I was saying, like there's a lot of good stuff

I've learned from my dad, and there's a lot of stuff that, like, I'd do differently. My dad was very stoic. I knew he loved me because I heard how he talked about me to other people, the amount of time he spent with me and how much he cared for me. He was not overly affectionate, communicative, that generation.

Yeah. There's that model. Totally. You know what I mean? I'm the exact opposite. Same. You know, I'm still chasing my 15-year-old around

trying to kiss him on his forehead. Dude, we're the same. Don't touch me. I'm like, I don't care. Get over here. Dude, my son will sit down right next to me.

He'll put his hand on my hand. And I'm like, cool, man. Yeah. Totally. You know, absolutely. I tell my kids, I love them all the time, you know, affectionate with them.

And I don't know, that's me. Well, I'm a fan of you now. That's, that's big. It's the biggest. That's the biggest thing. Most important thing we got.

You know, thanks so much for coming and sharing your story with the audience. I know it's going to impact people. And one more question I ask every guest is, what does true determination mean to you? You either want it or you don't. And if you actually want it, you're going to do it no matter what. There's no circumstances. There's no conditions. There's no, you know, you're all in.

and you're either going to get to whatever it is you want to get to or achieve or you're going to die in the process. That's how I've been my whole life. Love it. You know, I say it all the time on my social media is like, never been breakerfold. They quit, we don't quit around here. Giving up isn't an option.

Probably the thing I talk about most online is the perseverance and the resilience that's necessary to achieve greatness and success and how hard it is. I think there's a lot of bullshit on social media that make life look better than it's supposed to be and entrepreneurship and business and success easier than it actually is. You know what I mean?

I try to just tell people the truth of like, listen, yeah, I made a lot of money. I've done everything you can do with money five times. I've bought everything you can buy, of, you know, had a lot of success. It has been 20 years of getting my teeth kicked in, too. That's what you don't see. There it is.

So don't look at the airplane and the boat. They're like, oh, it must be so nice. You have no idea. That's a highlight reel, man. 100%. And so, you know, it's hard, difficult to challenging. It was hard, difficult and challenging getting there. And at this level, it's still hard, difficult and challenging.

It hasn't been easy for a day yet. Let you guys know when I find easy. Yeah, when you're dead. Yeah. Because there's nothing enough to do. Yeah. And then you stop. Yeah.

And that's the thing. It's never going to get easy. It's just a new problem. Every level. They call it what, new level? new devil? Yeah. It is what it is. Levels new devils for sure. That's a great, great definition. Thank you again for coming. I really appreciate you, man.

Absolutely amazing to meet you. Congrats on everything, and I know there's going to be a lot more coming from you. Yes, sir. So for the audience, check out my boy, Eric, on Instagram, dig into him, and get involved. I know he has a book out, so figure out just Google's name and buy that dang thing and learn from this man. And until next time, stay determined.