Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset - From Mob Boss to Man of Faith: The Real Story of Michael Franzese

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

Michael Franzese, former Colombo crime family captain, author, speaker, husband, father, and one of the only men to publicly walk away from the mob life and live to tell the story, joins The Determined Society for a powerful conversation on family, loyalty, faith, accountability, forgiveness, and redemption. In this episode, Shawn French and Michael discuss the moment his father was sentenced to 50 years in prison, why Michael left the path to becoming a doctor, what it meant to enter the Colombo family, the blood oath, the gasoline tax scheme, trials, prison, and the decision to walk away from the life publicly. Michael also opens up about the contract placed on his life, his complicated relationship with his father, reconciling with his brother, refusing to cooperate, and how faith helped him rebuild a life rooted in family, purpose, and second chances. The Determined Society is hosted by Shawn French — a show for people who refuse to quit. Every episode goes beyond the highlight reel to explore the real stories behind resilience, reinvention, and the relentless pursuit of a life built on your own terms.   Subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all others.. If this episode moved you, share it with someone who needs to hear it — and leave a review. It helps more than you know. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I grew up hating law enforcement. I hated the government. I hated police because I saw them as the enemy and my dad is the hero. From the time I was three, four, five years old, my dad was surrounded by law enforcement. There's a misconception out there that mob guys sit in their social clubs and they think of the next business they're going to attack or defrauded with him. In 1986, Fortune magazine, top 50 mob bosses in America. The guy sitting next to me was on it. is now a speaker, an author, a husband, a father.

I want to welcome Michael Franzis to the show. My challenge to people all around the United States of America, can we learn to disagree again? We're fighting over things that are trivial compared to what you're talking about. And yet there was still reconciliation, respect, and no love lost. But yet, there's people down on the streets. You know, the CIA, why would you trust that? Their job is to be dirty.

Yeah, we've done something that nobody else can say that they've done. did. You walked away publicly and there was a contract put on your life. You tell us that your dad approved the contract. How are you sitting here right next to me? Well, there's a list in 1986, Fortune Magazine top 50 mob bosses in America. The guy sitting next to me was on it. In fact, he's the only one on that list that is alive or not in prison. His name is Michael Franzis. and one time he walked away from it, something that nobody is allowed to do, walk away publicly.

And in fact, there was a contract put out on his life, and it is rumored that his dad actually approved the contract. So we have a gentleman now who is here, is now a speaker, an author, a husband, a father, and he's giving back to athletes, giving back to entrepreneurs,

and speaking in many arenas, helping people with their lives. And we get the opportunity to talk to him today, So I want to welcome Michael Franzis to the show. Sean, thank you. Absolutely. So good to have you, man. Good to be here.

I want to start at that moment. You know, 16 years old, young Michael, your dad is sentenced to 50 years in prison. Take me back to that room and what it actually did to you. It was crushing because I love my dad. He was my idol, my hero, and just a great father. And to realize that he was what we found. figured it would be a death sentence. He was 50 years old when he got sentenced the one he went in. Figured at 50 on top of that, he'd never come out of prison alive. So it was, you know,

you have these defining moments in your life that just really have an impact on you. And this was one for me, big one. What were some of the early feelings in that room when, you know, of course, you know, it changed the whole trajectory of your life. Yeah. Right? You were a pre-med track and, you know, you transitioned out from that. You went into the life. much to the, you know, objection from your father. And, you know, you became, you know, one of the, you know, you're the captain for the Colombo family, man. And, you know, generating $8 million a week in the gasoline tax scheme

and all that kind of stuff. Like, but in that moment, what triggered you to be like, all right, I'm going to change what I'm doing now. I'm going to go into this life. Well, what happened, you know, you got to understand. I grew up hating law enforcement. I hated the government. I hated police because I saw them as the enemy and my dad is the hero.

Because, you know, from the time I was three, four, five years old, my dad was surrounded by law enforcement. And, you know, I always looked at him as harassing him and harassing my family. I got it to many run-ins with them. So I was very resentful when my dad got sentenced and was going away because I believed he was innocent. Because he told me he was innocent. And if my dad said it, I believed it. And by the way, I believe that until this day. I'd stick my life on it.

I'll take it to my grave. So I was just really angry, resentful, and I wanted to figure out a way to help my father. Because I understand, I've shown, I never aspired to be a mob guy. It's not what I was going. I was going to be a doctor. I was an athlete.

You know, I played ball in school. My idol at that time, aside from my father, was Mickey Mantle. Oh, good one. I grew up loving Mickey Mantle. I'm a diehard Yankee fan. Until today, I don't miss a game. But, you know, that changed everything because now my father said to me, you're the man of the house. You know, you got to take care of your mother, your brothers and sisters.

And I felt, you know, the weight of that in a way. And I wanted to do whatever was necessary to help him get out of prison. Because I thought he would die in there if I didn't. And, you know, I was at a meeting with him when he went in in Leavenworth Penitentiary, we were in a visiting room. I had been highly influenced by Joe Colombo, who was the boss of our family. he was kind of my mentor when my dad went away. And he had started the Italian-American Civil Rights League, and I believed it was something that would help my dad,

so I was very active in it. And just one day I went in the visiting room, and I said, Dad, I'm not going to school anymore. If I don't help you out, you're going to die in here. And we had a bit of a discussion, I would say, about it. And finally, he threw his hands up, because I was kind of a headstrong kid. He knew my mind was made up, and he said,

okay, but if you're going to be on the street, I want you on the street the right way. and in his mind the right words to become a member of his life so he proposed me for membership at that point and so what's that process look like you know is there a vetting process and you know yeah i mean you can't just go up to a guy in that life and say i'd like to join you know what do i have to do somebody has to propose you you know say you have what it takes in my case it was my dad which there's a lot of nepotism in that life and then he sent word downtown and the boss of the family at that time uh he jubes Colombo had been shot and seriously wounded.

I was with him when that happened. But Tom DeBella sat me down. He said, Mike, I got a message from your father. And is this what you want? I said, yes. And he said, from now on, you're on call to serve this family, the Colombo family, 24-7. If you're by your mother's side and she's dying on her deathbed and we call you,

you leave your mother, you come and serve us. We're number one in your life. And they said, when and if we feel you deserve this privilege, this honor to become a member will let you know. So you're in kind of a recruit period until or unless your time is called when they figure, okay, you've earned it. How long is that process?

Or for your specifically, I guess. Well, for me it was two and a half years. For others, it could have been 20 years because there was something going on then that the books were closed since the 50s. They weren't bringing in any new guys for security reasons. And then in the mid-70s, they opened the books.

So there was guys waiting 20 years. to become a maid member. For me, it was two and a half years. Wow, wow. You know, obviously there's been things that I've heard that Sonny said to you that you didn't get it on your own merit, it was a favor of your father.

Do you ever think about that? Or, you know, is there any, because you mentioned nepotism, but at the same time, from what you're describing, it's like you earned it. You put in your work, and then you got, you were made,

and then you became the captain. You got earn it. Look, Joe Colombo, his kids brought in, call my personal had his, Gambino had his. I mean, it's just, it's for security purposes. You bring in a family member, they're not going to betray the life. The oath, that's the thinking.

So, no, I never thought of it that way. There's people out there that they say what they say for whatever reasons, but you have to earn it no matter what. You know, it's no gift to you. And you've got to earn it and you've got to prove yourself. No, I appreciate that. I think with anything, like you said, you know, if you're an actor, you know, your kids, they have an inside track to becoming an actor or an actor. actress, but they also have to do the work and they have to be good at it for them to have a

sustained period of success. My kids want to have a podcast or take over when I'm done. Well, yeah, that's the nepotism factor, right? But they got to be good or nobody will listen. Listen, you know, Frank Sinatra had kids and they tried to follow in his footsteps and to a degree they did, but they're not Frank Sinatra. You know, you got to earn it. And I tell my kids the same thing. I say, listen, you know, I'm having some success right now. My name means something. It took me a lifetime to become an overnight success, right? That's how it goes. But I want to open doors for you, but then it's up to you. You have to take advantage. Nobody's going to do that for you. So it's not wrong for a father, you know, or a family member to open a door for their children, but then it's

up to them. That's how life is. When you started talking about opening the door, I thought of Bronny and LeBron. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, hey, he's there, but he's not LeBron. Right? And you have to perform to get that earned respect. Exactly. So on Halloween? Was it 1970? Halloween night, 1970. 50 years ago this past Halloween. 50 years.

You took that blood oath, right? Yes. What did it actually feel like when the knife was cutting into your hand? For me, it was very exhilarating. You know, you work hard to get there. And then when you finally get there, okay, I've made it. You know, for me it was even more special because it was now I had to eat. even greater bond with my dad. And that meant a lot to me. And then now the work starts, you know,

because, you know, there was a thing, the night we got made, there was six of us that night. And after we finished, we went into a room and we all had a banquet, you know. That's what the Italians do. We had wine, we, whatever. And I'll never forget, one of the soldiers came in, and he had a brown bag, paper bag, and he brought in and said, hey, boss, should I give them all that bag of money now? And the irony in that is people think you come into that life and everybody's handing you money just the opposite you come into that life you were expected to hand up and the boss said that that night Tom said hey don't expect any handouts here you guys got to earn your keep both on the street

and and what you bring into the family and so I got it that night I understood it yeah and you generated a lot of money and revenue yeah for the Colombo family I mean most notably the tax scheme the tax scheme can you explain that to me because I'm not in that life. I don't know what any of that means. I mean, how does a man generate $8 million a week? Well, you know, Sean, there's a misconception out there that mob guys sit in their social clubs

and they think of the next business they're going to attack or defraud or whatever. And that doesn't happen quite often. Normally, it's somebody from the inside of a company, whatever, that comes to you with a scheme to defraud their own company. You know, and that happened to me several times because I was kind of the guy out there. My name was out there, especially on Long Island and certain parts of Brooklyn, so people would come to me all the time.

You know, hey, I got this deal, I got that deal, whatever. And then you pick and choose. And so a guy comes to me, and he's got a small operation, a gas company, and he was actually being shook down by a couple of guys from, I think it was a Genovese crew. So he came to me for help. They were extorting him for money. And after turning him away a few times, he was very persistent. And he came to me and he said, Mike, I have. have the germ of an idea. He said, I know you don't like the government. I said, no, I don't.

He said, well, I think we can make some money with the government. I said, how? He said, with tax money. And he had the germ of an idea, so I said, okay. So I got rid of the two guys that were bothering him. I made them go away. And we went into business together. And basically, we devised a scheme to defraud the government at a tax on every gallon of gasoline. It was us. We're doing it. The Russians was kind of doing it, you know, but we perfected it. That's that we perfected the scheme. And for about eight years, I ran an operation where we had a number, I had over 300 gas stations we either owned or operated. I had 18 companies that were licensed to collect the tax. They were wholesale companies. And they were all from Panama, created a scheme out of Panama. And at the height of my operation,

we're selling a half a billion gallons of gas a month and were taken down 30 to 40 cents a gallon whatever the market would bear at the time so we're making a lot of money and i will say this shan it was the biggest money-making operation in my view since the days of prohibition because contrary to what people believe we were not big drug dealers we weren't allowed to deal with drugs guys that were doing it were doing it on the side of sneak we were not the cartel by any means and that wasn't a major source of income so but the gas tech thing was big it was very big it sounds like it you know and And my question to you is, how does one come up to someone like you and be like, hey, I need your help? I got an idea.

It's like, how does someone have access to that? Did you know them? Or how does that work? You know, again, my dad had a big name on Long Island. So my name was known. And then I started to make a name for myself. So people would come up to me all the time. How do I get to, you know, through a friend, through an associate.

it got to a point where I had a place that every Monday night on Long Island, if you wanted to come and speak to me about something, this was the spot. So Monday night, we basically had a line of people that would come in, hey, I got a deal, I want to do this, I want to do that, and you pick and shoes. Wow. So this guy came to me during one of those meetings. And originally I chased him because I did my investigation on him, and he had testified in a civil matter against former governor you carry.

So I said, this guy testified. I don't want to deal with him. But he was persistent. He kept coming back. He was an Italian guy. And finally I said, okay, when he said the government thing, I said, all right, he's got my attention. Yeah. That's so interesting, man.

It's, you know, it's super interesting to me because I've never, I mean, you're the first one I've ever met. You know, I'm not from that life. I don't know anything about it. I would imagine it would be scary to come up and talk to somebody about this stuff. Yeah. Based on what you see in the movies, right? but how much of that stuff is actually what goes on? Well, it depends what movie, you know?

I mean, they get it part right because the characters are portrayed right, but the storyline isn't always that way. You know, they try to intensify, you know, like Goodfellas. There was basis of fact in that, but they try to, you know, enhance things a little bit. You know, we get a bad rap a lot of times in the movies.

I have to say that, but, you know, I'm not knocking the movie, some of them were brilliant. I tell people all the time. It's not a documentary. It doesn't have to go back. Just enjoy the movie. It's entertainment, right?

It's for dollars, right? It's entertainment. It's for dollars, right? In your opinion, what's the most accurate film? Okay, this is something I've been saying for years, and both Paramount Pictures and Armand de Sante, they've been thanking me for years. The most accurate movie, okay?

Most accurate was HBO's Gotti movie in 1996, with Armand Descante and Anthony Quinn. Very accurate, tremendously well acted. It's my favorite movie of all time. I've seen that one a long time ago. It's terrific. It's really good. And Armand and I became very good friends

as a result of that, me plugging that movie all the time. So it was very accurate. Goodfellas to a degree, Donnie Brasco to a degree, you know, great films. And the characters are portrayed well. Doesn't mean the storyline is always accurate, but portrayed well. You know, you get that all the time though, right?

It doesn't matter what. I interviewed someone last year, Marcus and Morgan Luttrell, and Marcus was the lone survivor in the British and Red Wings. They made a movie about it and books, right? Mark Wahlberg playing him in the movie. And there's a bunch of people come out saying that that's not an accurate depiction of what happened. It's Hollywood, right? Not a documentary.

It's not like, thank you, you know? So it's about expectations versus reality, right? Yeah. We're telling the story. So people have to understand, you're going to the movie to be entertained and you see a good story. If you want to see a documentary, it would have go read a book or, you know, go watch it on, you know, on Netflix or wherever they post it. Even though they're not always right either.

No, they're not. There's always slanted, right? Yeah. Like every, I'd say every documentary has their own slant because it's depending on who's telling the story. That's right. Right? You've got, like, making a murder.

Do you remember that one? Yes. Yeah. It's like, if you watch that documentary, like, dude, that guy's so innocent. Yes. But you don't know because you don't know the whole story, right? Yeah. Super interesting.

You mentioned a few minutes ago about the big, the biggest misconception is people think that we were running drugs and, you know, you're saying that we're not allowed to. we are at the cartel, you know, I've read some things of you saying that the underworld isn't, it's a shadow of what it used to be, but the cartels aren't. What part of the whole evolution scares you about that? Well, understand something with the cartels, Mexican cartels, even in Colombia. The government is in cahoots with them for a degree. There's no question about that. So they don't come down on the cartels the way the government came down on the mob. We don't work with the government.

Let me make that very clear. The government came to us on certain occasion. They came to us with Kennedy. They came to us with, you know, during the Cuban Missile Crisis when they wanted to assassinate Castro. They came to us. Wow. They came to Luciano during World War II when they needed access the Allies did to come into Sicily. So they've come to us on occasion when it's served their purpose.

There's a new movie coming out with Mark Wahlberg about Greg Scarper's involvement, you know, getting the civil rights, during that civil rights deal back in Mississippi in the 60s. When there was four guys that were murdered, four black guys were murdered, and the FBI couldn't find out who when there was a big uproar here, where they enlisted one of us to go down there and to find out, you know, who killed these guys, and Greg Scarpa found out. Wow. He basically beat the hell out of a Ku Klux Klan guy,

and they gave up the actual murderers. So they've come to us when it's convenient, but it's more convenient for them to come down on us. So they came down on us. The government in Mexico don't do that with the cartels, because they were almost as powerful as the government, these people, like their own army. So it's different in that regard.

And look, I was told the night that I was proposed and sat with the boss, he told me, if you deal with drugs in our family, you die. I know people in our family that dealt with drugs and died. One of my best friends, he was a soldier under me. I was his captain. He blew his brains out in a phone booth because he got caught in a drug deal and he was afraid they were going to kill him.

So he killed himself. A guy knew my whole life. Afraid the family was going to. Yeah. Okay. And he might have gotten killed. Yeah. Because you can't violate that rule.

But so I need people to understand that. And I always get beat up when I say it. Well, Vito Genevice was a big drug dealer. Yes, he was. That was in the 60s. It was outlawed after that. Were guys doing it on the side? Yeah, I mean, they're street guys.

They're going to hustle and make a few bucks. But we were not anywhere near the same level as cartels. Yeah. It's interesting. You talked about the government, right? And you had mentioned Castro. I did a show a while back, and there was a movie coming out about Castro. And it was about the specific time that he went to New York City and there was a contract on his life.

So that's interesting, right? Because that's government assisted, right? They came to you guys about that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's so interesting. That's a fact. No, I vote one billion percent believe you.

What did they come to you guys about Kennedy for? Well, there's different theories as to why Kennedy was assassinated. It wasn't Oswald. 100%, a lone killer that just didn't like Kennedy. 100%, no question that Jack Ruby was tied up with the mob. One of the reasons why I don't believe anything in that Warren report. Was the warrant? Yeah, the Warren Commission,

is because they said in the commission that Jack Ruby had nothing to do with the mob. Jack Ruby was totally mobbed up. From Chicago to Louisiana, totally mobbed up. He was some partners with us, and they used him to kill Oswald. Why did we want to get involved? Very simple. Because we handed the election to John F. Kennedy. We handed Illinois to him.

Razor thin between him and Nixon at that time. They needed Illinois to bring Kennedy over the hump to become president. We delivered it. And the deal with Joe Kennedy was that they were going to back off of us. What happened? Robert Kennedy, when he became the Attorney General, he came on to us even stronger. When I have to Hoffa and a lot of our guys, I believe he's a guy that put my father in jail. It was Kennedy.

So we were very upset. And when they came to us for help, we agreed. And we gave him Ruby to get rid of Oswald. Why was Kennedy killed? You know, he hated the CIA because of the Bay of Pigs. He was going to eliminate the CIA. And I believe, I don't know this for a fact, but I believe it was a CIA operative that came to us.

It was definitely a government agent. I didn't know who it was at the time. But I heard that so often from my father. and from guys in the life. And you got to understand that, Sean. We don't brag about things like that. Yeah. We keep it quiet.

So for me to hear that from different people that were in the know at that time, I'll never forget. When Kennedy got killed in 63, I was outside on my porch with a couple of friends, and I went in the house because it was all over that he got killed. And my mother was practically in tears,

and my father looked in and said, what are you crying about? That rat deserved everything he got. My father was a higher up at that time. So, you know, and he told me afterwards, He said, Michael, it's only a matter of time before we got him or his brother. Wow. Wow.

That's crazy. And I'll tell you this, the classified documents, I believe one of the main reasons they don't release those classified documents is because it will show the connection between Ruby and us, number one, and the U.S. government doesn't ever want the world to know that a sitting president was able to be killed by the mob. Wow. Yeah. That's my theory.

And I believe it's right. why every time they're going to release them, they put a stop on it. Even Trump was going to release them, put a stop on it. Why shouldn't we know this? 63 years later? There's a lot of things that we should know that we probably will never know, right? Exactly. We were talking off air about, you know, COVID and everything like that. We'll never really know. Right? We'll never know. Hey, we'll never know who really killed Charlie Kirk. You know, there's a lot of people saying that Tyler Robinson didn't do it, you know, I don't know. I don't know either. But listen to, you know, Hey, Epstein, the same thing.

Yeah. When they don't want us to know something, we're not going to know. That's a wild one for me. That's a wild one for me, man. Sean, I'm telling you, as I'm sitting here, if somebody said, do you have, would you bet your life on this? I was in the exact cell that he was in. I did seven months in MDC.

In that cell. There's no way he committed suicide. He couldn't. It wouldn't be possible. He'd have to be a midget because there's nothing to hang yourself by, number one. A midget. No, I'm serious. There's nothing to hang yourself by in that cell.

Cameras off, the guards fell asleep, all this stuff. But here's what really did it for me. Aside from all of that, then I find out that the FBI was right across the street, their building. It took them seven hours to come over and investigate after they heard he was killed. This is the most important inmate in the system. And they take seven hours to come over and investigate. They knew what was going down. That's wild to me.

And, you know, that's a great point. I was even thinking just about the release of the documents, the unredacted names, you know, they keep talking about we're going to bring them out, and they don't. Not going to bring it out. No, I think everything would collapse. Not going to bring it out.

I mean, look, this guy had, look, it's very simple. He had a lot of dirt on important people. Why would they trust him? Hey, if I'm going to jail for 20 years, other guys are going to go down with me. That happens every day. Why would they trust him?

Yeah. You know, it's amazing to hear these stories because there's a whole world out there that most of us, I think maybe 99.9% of the population doesn't even know exists. No. You know, it's kind of surreal,

to be quite honest with you. It is, you know, but when you're on the street, you know, you question everything, the motives of everything, you know, it doesn't look right, doesn't sound right. You know, not that we're creating theories

or conspiracy theories, it just doesn't sound right. And I say that out of experience. not out of, oh, you know, I'm just thinking that way. It's experience. I mean, look, most people in government are on a level. A good portion of people in the FBI, they're on the level. They do their job, and you can't throw a blanket over everybody.

It's not right. But there are people that, you know, that do the wrong thing. And they do it quite a bit. You know, the CIA, why would you trust them? I mean, come on. Their job is to be dirty. Yeah. Their job is to be unethical.

Their job is to go outside of the barriers of the law. That's their job. They get away with it. They're allowed to do it. So why wouldn't they call in a mob to kill somebody? Come on. But it's mind-blowing to me, right? And I'm sure you can appreciate that.

No, it should be. And, you know, in a massive way, I'm like, dang, this is really cool. I'm getting to sit here with you and talk to you because I never thought in a million years I would be sitting with somebody that was in that life. Not only that was one of the bosses,

right? The most five powerful families in New York City, it's a pretty cool thing to do. You know, but you've done something that nobody else can say that they did. You walked away publicly, man. You walked away publicly, and there was a contract put on your life

and it's rumor, I don't know if it's true. I'd let you tell us that your dad approved the contract. How are you sitting here right next to me? Well, you know, there are a lot of reasons for that. Remember, there's no blueprint for walking away from that life publicly, not entering a witness protection program and live to tell about it.

Unless somebody was in their 80s and 90s and they retired and went off to Phoenix or whatever, it doesn't happen. But here's the bottom line. I became a major target of law enforcement from the minute I got involved in the life, major. I had seven indictments. I had two federal racketeering cases,

There's one state racketeering case, one brought on by Rudy Giuliani. I had undercover investigations on me. I went to trial five times. What does all this mean? There was never going to be a situation where I'm going to live happily ever after if I remained in that life. Too high profile. Even though I was beating all those cases.

I beat five cases. Beat five. But your time is going to run out. And when it runs out, you're getting 100 years under the RICO statute. You're not getting 10. You're not getting 15, which, anybody can do in a hundred years a lot of time like so many of my friends so I saw that and I said look I'm not going to destroy my family I have an opportunity after I beat the last case I have an

opportunity to get out because the government wanted me and I kept beating them and so I took a plea on a case they wanted a conviction on me I took a plea 10 year sentence 15 million dollar restitution five million of forfeitures and I said I'm going to use this as my exit strategy. After I get out of jail, I'm going to move out to California with my new wife. I'll have parole and probation. I can use that as an excuse not to meet anybody in New York, and I'll live happily ever after in California. That was my plan. Of course, it didn't work out that way, right? Because it became big news that I walked away. And yeah, my former boss, call my Persico took it very personal contract on my life because Sean, all these guys thought

that I was going to cooperate with the government and stop putting people away. They didn't get it. And I kept sending messages to my dad. Dad, don't listen to them. Because the FBI did me very dirty. They put my name on the witness list of trials that were coming up in New York. And everybody was seeing that. But I had no intention of coming in, none.

They put a lot of pressure on me. They put me in solitary. They put me on diesel therapy. They were doing all this stuff with me, right? But I kept telling them, don't believe it. It's not happening. But everybody says that. And then you end up being a witness.

So, I mean, This is a long story, but to make a, when the FBI came to me and they said, listen, contract on your life, we got word from your informants, you're not going to live through this, Mike. Cooperate with us. Your father went along with the contract. We have proof. And I told him, I said, look, let me worry about my father. Did my father go along?

Yes. Because when he thought I was going to cooperate, he's got to worry about himself too. All right, if my son did that, that's the wrong thing, and what am I going to do? You know, it was that kind of thing. Would he ever put a gun to my head? No. No, I don't believe that one bit. And we talked about me and him afterwards, you know, and he said,

you believe I would ever do that? I said, no, Dad. But I believe that you hurt me. I said, I'm telling you right now. Because we had an incident that my dad did not do the right thing, Sean, as far as I'm concerned. And it did put a little bit of a, what could I say? They put a blemish on our relationship. And this was a night I got walked into a room.

I didn't know if I was going to walk out. My dad was not helpful. Wow. You know, and so that hurt. But I still love my dad and everything, and he would have never put a gun to my head. But, you know, when it became apparent, because all these trials are coming up and I never show up.

I never show up. So finally, they said, okay. And then I can reveal this. I've said it once before. There was a guy that turned informant that implicated me in five murders. The FBI came to me when I was in prison again. I was three months before I was coming home.

And I said, you're either going to cooperate with us or we're going to indict you for the five murders. I said, the guy's a liar. Take your best shot. So I sent word back, and here's what finally did it for me. Again, I said, listen, I got a visit from the FBI. Here's what's coming down. If I cooperate, I'm going to put everybody away.

I said, because I'm a good witness. I told him just like that. I'm not going to cooperate. I just want to be left alone. Let me live my life. Not going to hurt anybody. That's what did it for everybody. And my father sent that word back very strong.

He's, hey, my son is not going to hurt anybody. Come on, he would have done it already. And when I wouldn't go along with this guy, fine. But now I had to worry about an indictment, even though he's a liar. But what happens? This is how I know there's a God. This guy lied so bad that the government threw him out of the witness protection program. threw him out. Wow. He lied on so many cases.

Wow. So all his testimony went in the garbage and he's, he's still out trying to do things. He's a bad guy. Just made things up. Sure, I'm going to tell you this. I have never, never, never, ever seen a cooperating witness and informant in mob life, get on the witness stand, left hand on a Bible, right head, swear to tell the truth, and lie through their teeth. it's the worst system when guys are facing life in prison and you're giving them an open door plus you're giving them money plus you're giving them a new identity putting them some of course they have every incentive to lie they're going to sing of course they're not only sing they're going to lie because they're going to help themselves the government don't care if you're lying as long as you

don't get caught in a lie because you're building their case it's a bad system i sat once with on this jubilee i sat in front of 20 cops And we talked about the witness, you know, protection and paying these government informants. And not one of them can answer me properly. I said, don't tell me these guys don't have incentive to lie. I said, they're street guys. Yeah. You're giving them money.

You're giving them a new identity. And you're telling them you don't go to prison? Of course they're going to lie. They can hide out forever and be okay. So many of them do. That's the problem. That's so interesting. When you, we talked about your father before we started recording and he was your idol, right?

The only other idol was Mickey Mantle. Right. Guy, he was a stud. Guy was a stud. Greatest player. How easy was it for you guys to reconcile after the contract was put out? You know, because you speak very highly of your father. And there's not, there's not, there's no world I know other than your world now that can get word, that their father approved something like that.

And then have the understanding of the pressure that your father was under an understanding. his perspective of why he may have approved that, right? So you're coming at it with information, like he said experience, like, okay, this is just business. But how long did it take you to repair that? You know, we reconciled. My father was upset with me because even prior to this, there was an incident, like I said, I got walked into a room and my father did not support me at that time to the degree that he should have. He kind of wanted to. his hands of things. That hurt more than anything else because I was still part of the life. And I said, man, if this life can separate me and my father, what do we really have here?

It really was troublesome to me. And I never even said anything to my dad about it. Never. When I wrote my first book, it was my autobiography, I was really challenged as to whether I would put this in the book. But it was so significant in my life that I had to. Well, my dad read the book afterwards, and he called me, he said, do you believe this? I said, Dad, I know it's true. It's not a question of whether I believe in it or not. I know you didn't support me that night. I know it.

I said, yeah, it hurt. I said, but I still love you. Yeah. You know, I love you. So we read, he denied it until he died, denied it. But I knew it was true. I knew for a fact. It was true.

So did we reconcile? Yes. Was it exactly the same? No. It wasn't fully the same because I was. You know, another thing that trouble be about my father, and please, I don't want people listening to you. I love my dad until this moment.

I wish he was still here. Until he died, I still had good times with him. But after my dad, my dad was released from prison three times on parole. He was violated five times. He kept going back. He did 40 years on the 50. After his third time, I said to him, dad, you can't make it in New York. come down to Florida, come out to California.

You don't have to worry about anything. Everything's taken care of. Get out of New York because our family is falling apart. They're falling apart. My mother's a basket case. My brother's a junkie. My other sister's a junkie. You've got to repair the family.

Well, he didn't want to do it. And he said to me, none of this is my fault. I said, what do you mean it's not your fault? He said, well, I was framed. I said, I know, dad. But you weren't framed because you were a doctor or a lawyer. priest. You know, this is what they do. They frame us. We get it at times, you know. You have to get away from it. And he wouldn't do it. And he wouldn't accept responsibility. And that bothered me.

And my family was destroyed, destroyed, really. We had a very tough lifestyle. It was destroyed. And fortunately, I came out of it. But my brother didn't come out of it. Well, my sister dies of an overdose. My other sister dies young. My mother was a basket case until she died, 33 years without her husband. So I was upset with him over that. But again, never to the degree where this was still my dad, I still gave him all of my respect. You know, my dad did a lot of good for me. He taught me things that I cherish until today. The advice he gave me was better than any advice I've ever gotten. So I love my dad for that. But it was very difficult. This life is just so tough, you know, when it gets in the way of things.

But that's what I said. I said, you know what, I'm not going to do this to my family. No way. I don't want to betray anybody. I don't want to hurt anybody. I'm not mad in anybody. But I'm not going to continue. You said you had one brother, right?

Is he still alive? He's still alive, yeah. And he was addicted to drugs, correct? Yeah, 25 years, hardcore drug addict. Is he still? Is he doing it? He's off now. He's doing okay, yeah.

Are you guys cool, or is there? Well, cool now. Unfortunately, my brother, went into a bad phase in his life. He cooperated with the government. Didn't he wear, he wore a wire on your dad. He wore a wire, yeah. He wore a wire, which was very upsetting. And I didn't speak to my brother for 10 years. Seventieth birthday, my wife invites him to my birthday. Oh, boy. We reconcile. I love my brother. Yeah. I love my brother. We got close again for now.

You know, Sean, honestly, when we, he and I sat down after all of this, excuse me, and I said, bro, what's up? He explains something, things to me that I never got. Like why?

I never realized how, just how damaging he was and how this turbulence in our family really affected him and my sisters. I don't know why, as I sit here, for some reason, I was blessed and I was able to deal with it. That doesn't make me a hero or anything.

I just was able to deal with it, but those kids could not. And so they went in all different directions, and he told me how hurt and how devastated he was over so many things that happened. Wow. And I kind of got it.

You understood his perspective. I understood his perspective. Yeah. And even though I didn't agree, I said, bro, I'm not agreeing with what you did. That was still our father. And I'm not agreeing with it, but I understood, and he told me some of the circumstances.

I even spoke to the FBI agent that basically turned him later on. We're friends now. I guess I'm glad to say we're friends. So he explains certain things to me, and I was listening. So I love my brother. He's coming out to stay with me in August. That's beautiful, man.

Yeah, he was a good kid that just got destroyed with this life. He was a good kid. And now he's, I really appreciate the way he's come out of things. I really do. He's a good boy. That's amazing. How old is he now? Well, he's a good boy.

He's nine years younger than me, so he's in his 60s. Okay, so he's, he's 66. He's 66, yeah. I'm terrible. He was born in 1960. Terrible at math, Mike. Yeah, terrible. I'm pretty good at it when it comes to the account money.

Yeah, well, you know. You have to be to track all that money. Well, we never, we never wrote anything down. I'd always had a stay in the head. Oh, my gosh. So it's, so from, from having that conversation with the brother and becoming friends with the FBI agent, can you deduce the fact that your brother just wanted the life to stop so he can be at peace?

Yeah. Wow. I feel for what he did now. I have to say, bro, I can never agree with it. But I get it. I understand it. And I'm not even going to, I'm not holding it against you, you know? Because I like I said, I love my brother.

I mean, you know, my dad taught us to be a loving family. Believe it or not, we, you know, family was everything. Family was everything. As a matter of fact, I had to call my brother from Vegas two weeks ago. and he said to me bro i gotta ask you some because he now wants to come on my podcast he said i want to get some things out i said bro if you're ready i'm ready we'll do it he said do you do you he said to me and i said no i don't he said well i'm so glad because dad once told me this is what he's told i've never said this before it just happened he said dad once told me some we got to be

ready to go to war because we don't kill our own i swear you know what, I believe that, and I'm happy to hear that. He said, because my brother's a tough kid. He's not, he was a street kid. He's not a pushover in any way. He said, you know, if we have to go to war, we go to war. He said, and your brother knows that, me to me. And I said, you didn't know that, right? Initially, no. Yeah. But after we had the conversation, yes. Yeah. Then I said, okay dad you know because I I was a my dad calm me down I was very upset with the family I was ready to go to war because my dad after he my dad was a stand-up my dad you could put ice picks in his eyes throw him out the window he is never going to cooperate never his legend in his life meant too

much for him right never going to cooperate so what happens after the uh one of his violations my dad was a captain they broke him They made him a soldier. And I said, dad, how the heck did they do that to you? You're the most stand-up guy in this life, period. I said, how does person go do that to you? I said, no, no, no, we got to deal with this. I had a big crew.

My dad had a lot of respect. I said, let's go. Let's take it on. You said, son, bide your time. Just relax. Don't worry about it. This was a diplomatic. Because you know what?

They felt we were getting too strong. I had a big crew. my dad still had a lot of respect I'm a captain now I said what do we have to stand for this for you know he said if you listen to me one day you're going to be the boss of this family that's what he wanted for me and he was kind of

engineering it but I was I was ready to say they can't do that to you I was really hurt by that you know angry really but he calmed it down and no we don't do that don't worry about it bide your time you know he used his head

I was getting a little crazy over He threw that wisdom on you, baby. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you sure did. They don't do anything stupid. Listen, my dad taught me how to survive in that life. Everything he told me was right on point as to how to deal with the life.

And the one thing I will say about myself, I'm a good listener. If I think you have something proper to say, I'm listening. I don't care how old you are, who you are, where you came from, because I like to learn. And my dad, I knew he was wise. I knew he knew that life. I listened. And it really helped me in many, many situations. These are amazing stories about your your dad and your brother and I appreciate it and I know my audience is gonna appreciate it too

Well, I've never said this before. I'll be honest that right there to me is is an honor You know it's context right and and everything that you're talking about is giving context to Your life within the family but also your family family that you know from your brother's perspective and your sister's perspective is like that it unraveled and you said your mom was a Bastic case for 33 years without our husband until she passed, right? So there's a lot of undercurrent going on. And it's just nice to hear the stories. And it's nice to hear the fact that you and your brother have reconciled. You guys are spending time together and that you didn't hold on the things with your dad. You guys move through it. And my challenge to everybody who's watching or listening and to people

all around the United States of America, can we learn to disagree again? Because think of about it think about it like everything going on in the climate out there the environment we're fighting over things that are trivial compared to what you're talking about and yet there was still reconciliation respect and no love lost but yet you know there's people down on the streets you know you know Sean I am I'm a very forgiving guy just my nature and again when I'm saying this I'm not throwing bouquets of myself I'm just telling you i'm just a very i like to see good in people i've just been that way most of my life you know i was telling my my future son-in-law this this i'm going to give you it something that

applies to almost everything we had a situation where somebody was supposed to pay some money and i said remember this tyler the worst payers are always the best collectors because they know they don't pay anybody to figure everybody's going to treat them the same way worst payers best The people that are so judgmental, okay, they're the last ones that want to be judged. Don't criticize them, don't judge them, but they're ready to judge you in a minute. So you can apply that to almost anything. The worst of this is always the best of that, you know? So, you know, listen, I did a lot of bad things in my life.

There's no question. There were times in that life that I had to do things that I was very uncomfortable with, but I did him anyway. So you've got to be held accountable for that. You can't make an excuse. Well, you know, but here's another thing I want to make clear. When I tell people that I had a lot of good friends in that life, guys that I really loved and cared about.

And even my wife sometimes will say, come on, Mike. And I said, no, no, no, you got to understand something. There's an old thing, why do good people do bad things? It doesn't necessarily make them bad people. Their behavior is bad. They have to be accountable for it. There's no excuses, but that doesn't make them a bad person. I believe that I'm sitting here with you because God knows my heart.

Even when I did something wrong, he knew my heart. And, you know, there comes a time when you say, okay, you know what, I did the wrong thing. And you admit it. And you're not to admit it to the world, but you admit it to where it's appropriate when it needs to be done. And you, how could I say it? You benefit from that. everybody said I should be dead and were in prison for the rest of my life

and you know what? Maybe I should Maybe maybe maybe they're right Maybe I should but for some reason I'm not I'm here Well you know God's undefeated And that's what I believe you know because he knew my heart He knew what I want and he knows what kind of person I am On the inside

I mean I'm a forgiving guy because I know what I did in my life And I've been forgiven So you know I try to treat people the same way but not everybody's like that. Yeah. Not every. And that's the problem we have today. Social media.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, tell me about it, man. It's become a garbage pal, really. It's a dumpster fire, brother. A dumpster. It is a freaking. Misinformation. Tretchery from people.

You know, come out. I could be talking about the man in the moon and people don't like me because I support President Trump. Nothing to do with the conversation or anything else. But because they have such hatred within them. I've never experienced in my life, and I'm saying a lot, the amount of hatred against Donald Trump, you would think he was a mass murderer, a serial killer, a pedophile, and every other thing under the sun. What the heck? Well, how many attempts on his life have been?

That's what I'm saying. What, two years? Has it been five maybe? You don't like the guy. Don't vote for him, whatever. But the hatred you have for him, like he's the worst evil person on the world? I don't get it. But it's something in the air with people.

led to anger. Yeah. You know, it's interesting you say that. You know, because we don't talk about politics much on the show, but I'm always able

and willing to give perspective, right? I think everything going on both sides, right? It's become too amped up, right? You can like the president or you don't. I remember back in the day, if someone didn't like the president,

they were like, you know, I just don't like them. Period. You know, I don't really like his policies. I don't like this. I didn't vote for him. End a story. And it was always the topic

at, dinner that you didn't want to bring up right it was like you know it was like money and politics you just don't bring it up right and but now now it is become so how can i put this it's become so violent because you don't like somebody because maybe you don't like the way he speaks or maybe he's not articulate enough and he i mean dude he does say a lot of things that get people to go what the hell did you just say like absolutely but but does he deserve to die for it. No, he does not. Right. And I can say the same thing for Joe Biden, right? There was a lot of people ripping on him constantly. It's like, guys, like whoever's there, it's the president of

United States. There's, to me, there's a certain regard you hold for that position, right? You don't have to like them. You know, you don't have to support them, but you're American and you're here. Sean, I'm going to tell you what it is. No doubt. People on the top. No doubt. It's the love. It's the of money, the love of power. That's what it is. These people do not want to give up their status or their position. You know, I always say this in life.

It's not strong people in life you have to worry about. Strong people have confidence in themselves. They know what they can do. It's weak people given power that they really can't handle. And we have too much of that. Too much of that. And the rhetoric that comes out,

it trickles down to people, normal people. And they're hearing it from the top from their alleged leaders, you know, and it becomes so venomous. Yeah. These are the people that caused all of this stuff with any politician. You know, I hear it tell you're in Trump's pocket. What pocket? What do you talk?

I'm 75 years old. I don't need to be in anybody's pocket, number one. Number two, I don't know the guy. I have nothing to do with him. Yeah, I interviewed people around him and his kids and all that stuff, but I either like somebody's policies or I don't. Yeah. I don't care what the guy's last name is.

I agree with your policies. That's what I'm supposed to do, you know, in making a choice for any candidate, any president. I either go with your policies at own. That's nothing personal. Yeah. I'm not inviting you to dinner. You're not dating my daughter.

None of that stuff. Do you have a policy that I agree with, period? Yeah. But the bottom line is you can't even have this conversation anymore. No, you can't. It's very sad. No. Very sad.

You know, in fact, I'm sure, you know, the trolls will come out on this part of the episode and start. It's okay. And I'm fine with it. I'm fine with it because, to me, It's open dialogue. It's discourse. It's, it's, it's very, I'm curious, right, as to why we're in this climate right now. And, you know, I guess you can, you can point to social media. And listen, we're not even talking politics right now. We're just talking the general mood of the country. Sure. How it's so divisive. Sure. And I wish, I wish we had somebody,

Republican, Democrat, independent, that was so charismatic that people just really had confidence in that could try to bring this country together again because that's what it's really all about it's really sad that there's such division and i don't like it i don't think anybody really likes it unless you're crazy and you just want to cause trouble but does that person exist i don't know i i have one hope for the people listening and watching is that they hang on to that what you just said you don't care if it's a republican democrat independent that is power of And that's where Americans should be. I don't care who it is.

I don't care what party. I don't care what it is. But can you bring the country back together again? Can you, can we just get rid of these riots? Can we get rid of the killing? Can we get rid of the, just the toxicity that is just clearly palpable in the air in America? Like to me, that's what's important, you know? And so I really appreciate that you said that because that's where I'm at.

Where I sit is what's best for America. is what's best for America. Like, who can come in and fix this? Please come and do it. 100%. I don't care if you're, I don't care if you're far left and you come in and you fix this country and you have good policies and you're a capitalist Democrat, whatever.

Don't care. I don't care. Don't care, man. We don't care about the label. Just do the job. Right. You know, we are, the country hires the presidency.

That's right. By way of voting in that. person is supposed to be doing what's best for the country. Now, you know, I'm not saying that he's not. I don't have all the information. I'm just a civilian, man, right? But I just, my whole point to this rant is what you said was so powerful and so true to who you are as a human being that most, a lot of people, if they are a Democrat or they are a Republican, no matter what the candidate is, you have to side with that candidate and you have to hate the other ones. That's It's a cult to me.

Yeah. That's a cult, bro. It's said, because you become robotic at that point. It's just, oh. Yeah. You know, and you cannot, I look at it this way. You, myself, maybe we have the, call it a luxury of being in touch with what's going on in the world and the news. So many people, Sean, they're working nine, ten hours a day.

They're putting food on their table. They're taking care of their kids. They don't have time to get so involved in the political scene. So I've been a Democrat all my life I vote Democrat I've been a Republican I vote a Republican They don't really know And then there's so much misinformation

out there between social media And the media We got to The media is not what it should be anymore in this country They don't report properly So you can't blame people You know you can't blame people

For not maybe voting The way they should The way they really believe inside Because they just Oh okay I'm a Democrat Or I'm a Republican or whatever And I feel bad because the economy is tough you know people are struggling we get it so they don't know they

don't have the right information then you go on social media there's so much misinformation it's terrible i don't believe anything i see no i got to triple check it yeah it's uh you got to be very careful what you believe um we're seeing on social media the one thing to me is i don't know you you probably you probably remember this but like remember on instagram or facebook you used to have to push play to watch the video yeah now it just fired me right at you, man. It's just like, bam in your face. Yeah.

And it's like once you see something like we saw in September. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. That should have never made the internet. You're right.

That should have been taken down as soon as it was posted. You know, no one needs to see that. You know, and, and, but now, free rain, baby. Yeah. Put it on there. There's no checks and balances. Nobody's watching this information. That algorithm should have kicked that out immediately.

Yeah. Right? Because somewhere. There was probably a 10-year-old kid looking at the phone. Yeah. Like they shouldn't have been, but they're looking at the phone, maybe scrolling through daddy's feet and then boom, saw what happened. I saw it and I was mortified.

And I'm a 47-year-old man. I don't know. You know, it's just like, there's just like, my point is there's no filter anymore. You used to have to go out of your way to take an action to watch something. And there was a warning. Now I was like, oh, yeah, there he is. He's talking again.

Boom. I just think it's, I know. It's really sad. It's scary, man, to see all of it. But anyway, so let's get back to you. You're in prison, a lot of solitary confinement, and a guard handed you a Bible. And your life was completely turned around. You met your wife, right?

You know, what did she see in a mob captain, right, at that point? And what was she not willing to deal with? Well, she didn't see a mob captain initially. She was 19 years old when I met her. We dated, I would say, for 18 months until we got married. She's 21. She lived in Anaheim, California. She knew anything about the mob, really.

And as she got to understand what I was all about, what she saw was a guy that really loved her, was very kind to her, and took care of her. And that was it. Yeah. Yeah, and I do that until his day because she's my wife and she deserves that. You know, she's a tremendous woman. She waited for me eight years.

She's been through Helen back with me. And, you know, I believe this might be controversial that the job and responsibility of a man is to take care of his wife, his woman, his children. That's my responsibility. She's my queen and my princess. I'm not saying we don't have our issues back one. Don't get me wrong. We're married 41 years. You know, and she's a strong woman.

But I always take care of. My wife doesn't put gas in her car. I do, you know, because she's entitled to that as far as I'm concerned. And I think every man should have that thinking about the woman that they love. I do not disagree with you 100%. So that's what she sees in me. She didn't like the mob part of it. She didn't like that.

It wouldn't be something that she would want for. for me if she just may I want you to go into the mob no she wouldn't like that hey I got a good job for you yeah don't you go she's a good Christian woman and um you know but look she knows I love her and I take care of her and I know she loves me and so we have a 41 year marriage so it's beautiful congratulations man thank you a long time so when you went away you were with her you were dating her is that no no what happened was we got married in July of 85 I went to prison in December of 85. So the eight years that I did in prison, we were married.

Okay. And then I have a, funny, I got an eight-hour pass and she got pregnant. Oh, that's more. So we had a furlough baby. I was in a halfway house and she got pregnant. We had a halfway house baby. So we have babies while I was basically in prison legally because I wasn't doing anything wrong. But so she had the kids while I was still in prison.

and which was good because at least, you know, she had part of me there. But she, it was very rough. I didn't do the normal prison time because they put me on diesel therapy, shipping me all over the country. Then they had me in lockdown, you know. And I want to make this clear, too. I did sit down and talk to the government. And, you know, you get the people on social media, oh, he's a rat,

oh, he cooperated in it. I said, listen, I knew this life is well or better than anybody. I would never put anybody in prison. That was not my goal, and I would never go to that extent. Did I sit down with the government? Did I talk to them? Did I tell them a gas business after I went to jail about myself? Yeah.

And do I have friends? Rudy Giuliano, who wanted to put me away for 100 years. There's now a good friend. Joe Pistone, Donnie Brascoe. Could have put me away for 100 years. Now my friend. We became friends afterwards. Because I came to realize that, you know what?

They were doing their job. Yeah. They were doing their job. Just like you were. Yeah. This was their job. So that hatred that I had, that distorted sense of view, when I started to become a little wiser in my life and see things differently, I realized these are good people.

They were just doing their job. Their job was to put me away, period. So I got it. And now I have many friends in law enforcement, not because I cooperated, not because I share information. We're just friends. Because, you know, we're friends, period. That's all I could say.

That's pretty surreal that you and Rudy Giuliani are friends now. Yeah. He wanted to put you away for 100 years. And that's what he told me. That's crazy. He said, if I convict you on his case, you're going to do double what your father got. I'm giving you 100 years. He told me that in the courtroom day of my arraignment.

And I reminded him of that, and he said, yeah. I reminded him 30 years later. But, you know, look, we had a lot that we had to go through. Yeah. But listen, Sean, you've got to be held accountable for your actions. I consider myself extremely blessed. I could have been in prison for the rest of my life. 1,000%

Or I could have been dead. We had a big war in our family. War. 13 men were killed. 63 men went to prison. 18 guys became informants. And I'm in solitary confinement. While I'm suffering in solitary confinement, my friends are dying.

Wow. I would have been in that war. Yeah. So I got blessed by being in solitary. Saved your life. Saved my life. That's how I look at it. Yeah.

Because my father, I was out on parole. He said, you've got to get back here. Forget this walking away stuff. We're going to war and we need you. And I was so torn. I said, oh my God, I don't want to be like a coward like I'm not going back. And then boom, I get violated. And they didn't have to make the choices.

No, the government made the choice for me. Yeah, they wanted to put me away forever again because I wasn't cooperating. I was pulling the wool over their eyes. They said it afterwards. They said, and then when they realized it, boom, they locked me down. they gave me the business but you know wow it's uh again i said it before it's surreal just to hear these stories man well for me it's just that's my life so it's not a i don't look at it like a big deal but you know but it is i guess when the scheme of things it matters but for me it's the people so

you know how'd you go through prison i said well they didn't give me a choice they don't say do you want to go do you want to stay home no you go and you deal with it that's not a voluntary exercise, right? And guys just say, oh, I think I can do it. You'll do it. If you put in the situation, you'll do it. I think the survival, you know, instincts kick in and you learn the environment, and you have no choice. We give up? No. You know, because you were pretty young. You still had time. If you got out, you can still have a life and you've shown that you've built an amazing life. Yeah. Very blessed. Yeah, man. You said, you've said something twice. And I always hate to go back to something, but I feel I need to, because I need to understand what it means. What is

gas therapy? What is what? You say gas therapy or something like that. Or diesel therapy? Diesel therapy. The worst part of being in federal prison, when they really want to break you down, they'll take you out of your cell at 2 o'clock in the morning, bring you to the airport, you get on some plane that the marshal is confiscated from some drug dealers, you're shackled and handcuffed the whole time, and they take you on that plane and they bring you somewhere. You don't know where you're going or whatever. And they'll bring you to that prison.

You'll be there same thing for a week, pick you up, they don't tell your family where you are for security reasons, and they just ride you around. You can never get settled. You can hardly take a shower. You don't have any of your clothes

because they don't let you take anything with you. And they just move you around until you're like so exhausted. That is the worst part. You rather be in solitary. You'd rather be anywhere than that. Really? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. So they put me on that for a couple of months. My wife didn't know where I was. They wouldn't tell her. You can't write. You can't do anything. You're lucky you get to a phone. Wow.

You know? And she's calling the Bureau of Prisons. Where's my husband? Oh, don't worry. He's okay. But we can't tell you where he is. So they do that to really try to get you. And they gave me that therapy for a while.

And then they locked me down for 29 months in seven days. In solitary. In solitary, yeah. 29 months. 29 months and 7 days. It's like almost two and a half years. Yeah. That's wild.

Yeah. How do you not go insane? You don't, you know, for me, it was a faith issue for me is when I really developed my faith, my relationship with the Lord. And you live for your phone call and for a visit. Wow. Now, that's the moment when the guard handed you the Bible, right? Yeah. It's when you were in solitary.

First night, yeah. Wow. You know, of course, I mean, it's movies. You see movies, someone's in solitary for a week. They come out all insane, just wild and crazy. 29 months. Yeah, you know what? Look, I know guys who did longer than that.

And it affects you. Don't get me wrong. I saw a lot of guys that did not do well. You know, those lights go out at night or sometimes, some things you don't want to think about. But I don't blame them. I understand. You know, it's not for everybody.

Yeah. You know? But if you get through it. Yeah. What was the one thing that you had to work through psychologically when you were able to get out of solitary? You know, when I got out, the first thing I wanted to do when I left prison,

believe it or not, this is going to sound crazy. I told my wife, I want to be around people. Let's go to Walmart. Walmart? Walmart. That was your outing. Yeah, that's the first place I went when I was released. Not an all-inclusive vacation.

No, I just wanted, I wanted, we left from the prison and went right to Walmart. And I just wanted to walk around. the store and just be part of life again. Yeah. And she said, are you sure? I said, I'm sure. I don't want to buy anything.

I just want to look. It's going to Walmart, man. That's where we want. It's interesting you say that because all too often in life, there's things that we take for granted every single day. And I'm as guilty as anybody. You know, I can take my family to dinner anytime I want. All our bills are paid.

We have clothes. My kids have nice stuff. They get to go to the camps. They get to do whatever they want to do. You get to go on one vacation a year. And there's times where I think I don't have enough. But for a man that spent 29 months in solitary confinement, and how many years total in prison was it?

It was eight out of eight. You did eight. You just want to walk around Walmart. Yeah. You'd be surprised how little things like that. I'll give you another example. Before I went to prison, I never waited for anything. If I wanted a car, I want that car, I want it now.

pay you i want it now i don't want to wait i don't want to order it i want it now well i don't have it well go find one like that i'll be back tomorrow that was the way movie line i always had a way to get in never wait in online i get out of prison and um i forget what movie me and my wife were going but the line was around the corner this was back when people were still going at theaters and i start walking towards the end of the line and my wife says where are you going i said we're going in a movie. She says, but where are you going? I saw, a long line. We've got to go online. She, you're going online? I said, yeah, why? She said, you never waited for anything. But in prison, everything is hurry up and wait. Yeah. Nothing is in a hurry. You're just, you're online,

you're here. That's it. So I got used to it. It didn't bother me anymore. Yeah, where are you going to go, right? Bothers me now, though. I got over that. I don't want to wait in line anymore. No, but, but yeah, that kind of got me like that. It kind of settled me down. Yeah. In that regard, you know? That's interesting. Is there any question about your past that you haven't been asked that you wish someone would ask you? Gosh.

I can't think of it right now. I mean, obviously, I don't reveal everything. Of course not. You know, but I mean, no, I mean, you know, just today talking about my brother, I don't think I've had that. I haven't had that kind of an in-depth conversation about it. So something has to just hit me and then maybe it'll come out. Yeah. No, it's just, and it's a very abstract question. It's just, you know, there's, there's things that when people ask me questions or, you know, like, how, I wonder why they didn't ask me that. You know what I mean? Like, it's a pretty interesting question to ask. I wonder why they didn't think of that, you know, but. Listen, you know, Sean, the one question I always get asked that you didn't ask, you know, but always is, have you ever killed anybody? I would never ask that. Okay. I mean, Pierce Morgan, they always ask that. And, you know, my answer is, I get it. I understand that.

But what I said to Pierce off camera, I think it was Pierce that was talking to, one of the guys. No, that's definitely a Pierce question. Yeah. I've been on his show twice, so it's definitely, you didn't ask me that. But I'm saying, I think it was him I had this conversation with, but I said, can I ask you a question? If a guy from the Army came on here that was in the war, would you ask him how many people that he killed? Oh, no. Well, why not? murder is murder if you're killing somebody you're killing somebody I know it's different when you're killing somebody for your country you're fighting the enemy but you're still murdering somebody yeah why is it so fascinating when you're a

mobster now I'm probably crazy for asking that question people are saying come on Mike are you crazy and maybe maybe I am it's just how it hits me it's like it's so fascinating to people you know and I'm saying gosh police kill people and you know the enemy army but why is it so fascinating for a mobster? Sean, if I'm crazy, tell me. No, I don't think you're crazy. I see your perspective, but I also

see the other perspective, right? Because I am the other perspective. It's just I wouldn't ask a question like. So, you know, the mafia, the mob has been I don't want to say glamorized, but it's been very cinematic in our culture, right? There's

always movies about it. There's documentaries. There's all that stuff. Like, I know, Jack, you know what about that life, but I knew who the Colombo family was, right? And so when someone has the opportunity to be in front of someone like you or to speak to them virtually, I think I can understand the question. I don't respect the lack of emotional intelligence that leads someone to actually ask that question. but I can see the the intriguing part of it, right? And then on your side, I'm like,

gee, what's the difference? You know? Well, you know, but I will tell you this, and this might sound strange, but there are guys that obviously have cooperated and went in the program and admitted to murders, right? And they have immunity, obviously, for that.

There's guys online that talk about it and I'm offended by it. Because I say to myself, why do you want to talk about this? this. I don't care that you have immunity. I don't care that. Why do you want to brag or boast or even mention the fact that you killed somebody? Unless you're doing it in a remorseful way, I just, it's not a badge of honor. It's not a badge of courage. And I feel that some guys, and I'm not being specific about anybody, but you know, you listen, it's like a badge of honor. And I say that, you know,

murder is a horrible thing. Yeah. It's a horrible thing. It really is. And it's not something in my view that you should talk about so nonchalantly or even bring it up. If you were fortunate enough not to be doing life in prison because of it, because those are the penalties, leave it alone.

Yeah. That's how I see it. But I think you said it best because my challenge back to you was like, but what if they're doing it to get it off their chest so they feel kind of freed from this heaviness? But you said it, remorseful. Me, but you can,

tell if someone is being remorseful or just talking about it just for the sake of talking about it right i think those are two different things yeah listen i'm going to tell you this it is nothing courageous about taking a gun and put in the back to somebody's head it's not it's not an act of courage and i can say that it's not it's not something that should be lauded as a courageous act and i i just don't think it's something that should be talked about period that's just my feeling. So even if I would have admit to a murder and I had immunity for it, I wouldn't discuss it. Yeah. I just don't feel good about it. I mean, I think just the fact that, I mean, I'm sure you can reflect on your life and in organized crime and go, man, there's probably

a lot of people that suffered because of the decisions I've made, whether it was murder. I mean, didn't even have to be murder. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't even have to go to that extreme. but like you're you're already reconciling that right in in thinking of it and and I think that that right there is heavy enough it is yeah listen I know that weighs heavily on some people have experienced that during my time but I just I guess I just don't get it you know there's certain things that you just don't discuss unless like I said if it's a remorseful way I got to get this off my chest and whatever. This is how I deal with it.

Okay. But to constantly talk about it and like it's a badge of honor, I just don't see it from anyone, even if you're in the military. You know what? Every guy I know in the military that I ever asked, you know, talked about the experiences. They never mentioned that.

Never. Oh, I killed a, no, they don't do it. No, they don't want to because it. What they'll say is, look, I've been through some horrible things. And they'll leave it at that. Yeah. Seeing some things. And, you know, I'm recovering from it or I'm having it on time.

You know, I've been in the room with a lot of seals. Mm-hmm. That, you know, in my line of work, I've interviewed multiple. And it's never even occurred to me to ask that question. You know, it's good. It's, um, really there's a boundary, I feel in life. And you have to be able to see them the imaginary boundary, just like the dog has that imaginary fence, you know, but they can't go to that edge of that, that property line,

it's going to shock them. We know deep down what is the right question to ask, right? There's a difference between being courageous in your question and then just be flat out just missing it. And you're like, yeah. You know, and I understand a journalist. Sometimes he feels responsible. He's going to hear it from his people. And let me tell you, I like Pierce Morgan a lot. I don't have a problem with him. Yeah, we became friends and I really like him. He's really good at what he does. Really good at what he does. Oh, he sure is. And, you know, I understand. Hey, I'm supposed to be asking these questions. I get it.

I get it. I really do. It's not even that. I just don't understand the, again, I don't want to be redundant. The fascination with people that they have over it. Not so much the person that is interviewing you. It's the fascination that people seem to have. When I go out, it's always the first question I'm asked.

Like Q&A, how many people have you killed and where's all your money buried? I get that all the time. It's buried. You can't use it. Bottom line, I'm not going to answer you the one. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

So, you know, I mean, but I get asked that all the time. I laugh at all. Yeah. Like, you know, it's, I can predict it's going to happen. But we do the Q&A's, but. That's insane. You know, when you, when you look back at your whole life, right, and being in the family and everything like that, do you ever look at it like, how in the hell am I here?

Like, not even just from the standpoint of the contract. I'm talking about a standpoint. it's dangerous right and there's so many things that you experience through that you look back and just go like oh my god like that's a that's a lot i look back all the time and it hit me hard on my 75th birthday it really did because it's three quarters of a century yeah and everybody just about i mean if i'd had to put a percentage it would be 99% of the people i knew through that life are gone. Yeah.

Gone. Done. And I'm here. So, you know, there was a time I didn't know if I'd make it to this point. So I look back and, Sean, I'm not saying this, but it's the truth. I am thankful every day to be alive and free. You know, one of the things people are you, when your freedom is taken from you, wow, it's heavy.

Yeah. Your freedom is so valuable. That's why as bad as a condition our country can be in, we have. have to cherish our freedom here. We are free. Agreed. And I wish that people understand how important that is and really not to let anybody in leadership take that away from us. Our freedom is everything. Yeah. And we have that here in this country. That's why we are the greatest country in the world for that reason alone. And I get upset when I think people are trying to infringe on that, people in leadership for their own personal reasons. You know, their power,

whatever it is that they're trying to achieve. That troubles me because I know what it is to have my freedom taken away. And I cherish it. Was it scary going to prison? It wasn't scary because I visited my dad, my whole lot. I knew what prison was all about. So it wasn't scary at all.

It was not pleasant. You know, you don't want to go. But no, I was never scared. I was never scared of things happening in prison. The only thing, I'll tell you what scared me about prison. when my dad went to prison under the old rules in the Bureau of Prisons

you had one phone call a month and one visit a month one three minute phone call a month three minutes and one visit so what happened my mother and my father drifted apart he wasn't there

you know my brother had an accident this and that he wasn't there so he naturally became not part of the family and I saw my mom in his relationship really fall apart in many, many ways. I was scared of that happening with me and my wife. So all that mattered to me in prison, phone call and visit.

I told one lieutenant came to me once I was in Phoenix. This guy was out of a movie, and he said, you know, I want you mafia guys to know that this is my prison, it's not your prison. I said, Lieutenant, I don't want to have anything to do with your prison. I said, no, you know what I told him? I said, you can lock me in my room 24-7. my cell, just make sure I get my visits and my phone calls. That's all I care about is seeing my family. And that's all I did care about.

When I was in prison, fortunately, those restrictions were lifted. You got more visits and stuff. But I would get on the phone when my wife, if she had a plumbing problem, I'd get on a phone with the plumber. When she wanted a new car, I brought her five or six, seven cars when I was away. I was just trying to keep her happy. I would get on and buy the car. I had a leasing guy that I was working with

that after like eight years he said What am I going to meet you? I saw my job takes me away all the time He didn't even know I was in jail Right When I finally got home I said well I quit that job I'm going to be here now You know he had no clue

And then he found out Yeah yeah yeah I mean because I just wanted to be part of the family Yeah And you know fortunately you're able to get more visits I didn't want my relationship With my wife to be destroyed That's all that I worried about

Nothing else That's awesome looking back after everything you've been through, was it all worth it? Was it worth it? Well, I have to say yes, because I'm very blessed in my life or my wife, my kids, and what I have.

People say, would you have joined the life again? Under the circumstances, probably yes, because I saw it as a way to help my dad, not because I wanted to be a wise guy. I saw it as a way to help my dad. But knowing what I know now, I would say, Dad, there's got to be a different way. Maybe I'll become a lawyer.

Maybe I'll whatever. It's not the way for me to go, you know? Maybe we'll do something different. Yeah, we'll do it different. I don't know if anybody's ever told this about you, but I've noticed something about you in these adverse moments of your dad going to prison, you felt the need to go and help. The only thing you were worried about in prison was being a part of your family. You're very selfless.

Oh. You are. Those things are about other people, man. And when people are backed up against the wall, the only thing that they can think of is one thing, one person is themselves and how do they survive. But you have been focused on everybody else.

And I truly believe that is your heart and that is why you're at where you're at now. I don't know if anybody's ever told you that, but that's the, in the last hour and probably, I don't have a conversation we've had, everything you're saying is selfless, man. And that is obviously a compliment, right? For the audience, I'm not saying selfish.

I'm saying selfless. You are outwardly focused on everybody else for the ones that mean something to you. And that is a great point. Thank you. That's a great quality. Well, you know, listen, I learned one thing in life. It is really, and this is, I know it's a slogan or whatever, but it really is a lot more rewarding to give than it is to receive, especially when you've had everything.

Look, I've had, what else do I need in my life? Yeah. You know, and I love to see people happy as a result of what I've been able to do for them, if that happens. Dude, you bought your wife seven cars in prison. I know people that never been to prison and haven't bought seven cars, well? I told my wife, I said, listen, don't worry about spend all the money that you got. It's okay.

When I come home, I'll make it up. You know, listen, I made a lot of money in my life. And money, I try to tell, and I get asked this question all the time. What does money mean to you? I'll tell you what it means. peace of mind, comfort, enjoying my family, and not having pressure. Because money problems stink. Yeah, they do.

They're horrible. They ruin lives. They ruin relationships. But I don't, I give money away. I've been very unselfish in that regard because it's a tool to make people happy and to be comfortable. That's really all it is. You know, Sean, if I would ask you this, what do you want your legacy to be in life?

I get asked that all the time. I said, look, I don't want my name on a building. I don't need any of that. I want somebody when they come up to show and say, hey, did you know Michael Friends? Yeah. Oh, he was a pretty nice guy. Yeah.

You want to hear that, and you want your family to be intact, and that you left something for your family. Oh, he was able to do good for his family. Yep. You know, I have a little bit of a problem because I was married once before, and I had three children from my first marriage.

I've had a little bit of a tough time dealing. My son is very close to me. He lives out here, but my two daughters are in New York. I was never able to repair the relationship the right way. I let them down. No question because of the circumstances and everything else. And that's the one kind of blemish that I have with my children.

I wasn't able to deal with them the way I want to. And they're older now. You know, my oldest thought is 49 years old. But that remains as a failure for me in that regard. But other than that, you know, I want my kids to be able to say I was a good dad, you know, and he left me something. That's your legacy. That's really your legacy in life.

How do people react to you? What does your family think of you? You always say, you know, what would the wall say when you're not around? What do people say when you're not looking? And what does your family and your children think about you? That's your legacy. That's it. And I agree 100% with you.

You know, your whole life, being in the family, being in prison, getting out, reconciling with your father, reconciling with your brother. Man, all that stuff is not easy. And with all that, there's a lot of adverse moments. But because of everything you've gone through in your life and experience, what does true determination mean to you? True determination? I mean, look, you know, accomplishing things that you really set out to do.

You know, and again, I mean, I, I think it just summed it up, you know, just, look, when I set out to do something, I like to finish it, I like to get through it and finish it. That's important. You know, I try not to take on things that I'm not good at. You know, a lot of people, a lot of people want to get credit for everything. Me, I'm the first one to admit, I don't know anything about that. Do it for me. Do what you do best, delegate the rest. And then motivate the people that you delegate this to to get the most out of them. Any success I had in business, that was my formula. I do what I do best. I delegate the rest to hire the right people, and I motivate them to get the best out of them. Because there's stuff now. I don't know and I don't want to know it and I can't do it. I mean, I turn to my future son-in-law, hey, fix the, here's my, I don't know, I don't want to hear about it.

AI, listen, here's my thing. We've got to be on top of AI because that's the future. But don't ask me about it. I don't want to learn. I don't want to know. I got too much in his brain right now. There's not enough capacity for me to do that way. So you handle it for me.

I feel you on that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't even want to attempt to know it. Oh, Michael, you don't know. You're right. I don't know anything. But you do, so I'll hire you and you make it right. That's it.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. No, it's a good explanation. It's, you know, it's on point. You're talking about, you know, the ability to finish what you started by taking action and not letting up being consistent, right?

That's what it's all about. I got to tell you, I have really enjoyed this. and I appreciate you and thank you so much for coming on and spending so much time. I've never said this on the air when I'm going to. This has been one of my favorite conversations I've ever had on my show. I appreciate that. And I enjoyed it very much also. You know, you never know what to expect.

But there were times when I were going to an interview and I had to lead the guy into the questions because you know how it goes, Sean. I do. But this was very, it was very, just very good, very relaxed and very good. Thank you. Well, hell, man, three years ago, you might have. had to lead me, you know? I've learned to dance a little bit since then. I said, no, maybe three, you know, three years ago, you might have had to leave me a little bit, but I've learned to

dance a little bit. Hey, listen, we all get better. Yeah. You know what I mean? But no, you, you handle it well, and it was a pleasure to come on. Ah, equal. Thank you so much. All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed today's show. Really dive into what Michael's doing. If you ever have the opportunity to hear him speak, go check him out. Go buy his books. Buy his books, but support this man because he's doing great things and all he cares about his people. And for you guys out there, I want you doing the same thing. Focus on the ones that you love and always give back to your community and to your family and ultimately always be present. And until next time, guys, stay determined.