DGTL Voices with Ed Marx - Unlocking Mental Performance (ft Dr. Bobby Low)

Episode Date: March 19, 2025

On this episode of DGTL Voices, Ed interviews Dr. Bobby Low, the director of mental performance at BYU, discussing the intersection of sports psychology and personal development. They explore Dr. Lowe's journey from a pole vaulter to a mental performance coach, the importance of mindset, and the eight mental skills that can enhance performance in both sports and corporate environments. The conversation emphasizes the power of neuroscience in shaping thoughts and behaviors, and how individuals can unlock their potential through intentional mental training.

Thanks for tuning to Digital Voices podcast, where we chat digital transformation challenges and opportunities across healthcare and life sciences. And now, your host, Ed Marks. Welcome to another edition of Digital Voices. There's no ads. There's no sponsors. It's just content. So thank you for being here.

And, yeah, Dr. Bobby Lowe, welcome to Digital Voices. Yeah, thanks for having me, Ed. Excited to be here. So excited to talk to you because not only you're a great person, we've known each other for a little while. But the things that you're studying and doing are just amazing. And I just love watching all of your content. And that's why I wanted to have you on.

So we first met, I don't know, at least maybe 10 years ago. Yeah, it's been a few years. Yeah. But before we get too far, what are the songs on your playlist? I mean, that's what everyone wants to really know. Like, what motivates you on your musical? That's the thing. I am a big country guy.

I'm a big country fan. And right now what dominates my playlist is Morgan Wallin and Luke Combs and Tyler Hubbard and I mean, I could go on the list, but that's that is what is on my playlist right now. Awesome. Do you go to concerts? Do you and your family go to concerts very often? My wife and I, my wife actually has, she wasn't a country fan before we met. And then when we got married, she became a country fan.

And she is a big Morgan Wallen fan. But he doesn't get to Salt Lake City very often. And so we were just talking the other day. Oh, if he gets here, we've got to go and do that. I was a concert guy. I have been, in fact, out here in Salt Lake City, we have a giant amphitheater that does attract a lot of, you know, high-level celebrities. So we try to get to some, but more in my younger days. Right now I spend most of my time chasing around five kids.

So I kind of joke my second job is a Uber driver, you know, to shut up kids around to their different activities and stuff. What's the age range of your kids? We go from 16 all the way down to six, and we have five of them. So it's a small army over here. Yeah, but that's a pretty good every couple of years. That's a pretty good pace. Sometimes there might be like a 20-year gap for some people. But you've got it within like 10 years.

It's like one of my kids, my oldest son, he's got the same thing right now, although they are trying for six, but he's got five. And they're within like about a 10 year. So it's like every couple of years. So they're due for another one. So I think number, I'm sure there'll be an announcement soon for number six. But that's, that's cool. What about life message or mantra?

Are there words that sort of guide you or that you live by? Yeah, I thought this was a super interesting question because like I really couldn't settle on one. And actually part of that is a result of my field, right? And studying a lot of the neuroscience of the brain. And really, as I thought about this question, I was like, well, there's so many because I'm actually trying to engineer intentionally. and wire my brain in a way that helps me be a good father and a husband and a dad and also helps me be a great coach and it helps me do what I do over here and then, you know, be a contributor in society, right?

And so there were so many and you know this and maybe we'll talk a little bit more about this, but from the neural standpoint, the phrases and the things that we say, the language that we use is how we engineer and wire our brain. and we know from the neuroscience, we actually call it neuroplasticity, that the brain changes and it molds and it can grow kind of like clay, right? And so the words that we use

will actually shape a lot of what you believe and then what turns into action and then hopefully what turns into results and outcomes, right? And so I have a lot of mantras, but the one I did settle on to answer this question, I think it is be a giver. I'm always trying to be a giver. And actually where this comes from is it's from the research from Adam Grant out of the ward of business school.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with Adam Grant, some of his work. But one of my favorite books is his book, Give and Take. But he essentially describes three different types of people. You have givers in the world. You have matchers, quit pro quo folks, and then you have takers. And after reading that, I sort of thought, I always want to be a giver. How do I just shape and be a giver in whatever area I go into? I love that. That's really good. I will look up the book because I'm a big believer in what you were just saying. So I'm curious, do you recall what he says about spending time with people? Like, if you're a giver and we know there's a lot of takers, does he recommend spending time with takers? Or are those people that maybe avoid?

Yeah, he says, he says in the book, he calls it, he calls it being a doormat giver. And what that means is that somebody who just gets taken advantage of a lot because they, they're a giver. And so what he recommends is be a giver, but also learn when to set a boundary or when to be able to say no, right? Because we definitely don't want to be subject to just takers all the time, right? And so, but he does kind of categorize a group of people as, as Dormat givers. So, yeah, we don't want to be one of those. Could you imagine if everyone was a giver what the world would be like? No question. It would be great. I'm already intrigued. And I rushed Friday into everything, because I forgot to mention, you're the director of mental performance for BYU, and you're also the founder of Motivate. And we'll put links to all this in the show notes,

because I know people are going to want to get a hold of you and learn more about you and all the research and things that you do. Because it's super fascinating this whole topic and what you already sort of foreshadowed, and that is that we can impact our performance. And it's not just athletic performance, but it's mental performance as well. So we are, we are, I promise, while we are going to get into it, but before, I just want to know a little bit more about you. So tell us your story. Where did you grow up and how did you get to where you are today and what you're doing? Yeah.

Maybe I can sort of weave it all together as I share my story here. I'm from Utah. I grew up in Provo, Utah. It's a small town. It's actually where BYU is located. And I currently now work here. So that was a little bit fun. but I grew up as a sports enthusiast.

I participated in everything. I was kind of an adventurous kid. Kind of gravitated to, I played basketball and then ran track and field and gravitated to the event, the sporting event of the pole vault and did that in high school. And turns out I was a little bit, I was pretty good at it in high school. And then walked on to the team over here at BYU and continued down that pursuit of pole vaulting. And this is where I kind of fell in love with the sports psychology world or really the mental performance world. And what I mean by that is learning how to think in the right ways

or the correct ways to help unlock your performance and help unlock your physical skills. I was here at BYU. I was training. I was in the weight room. I was on the track. I was doing all of the physical training. And I was frustrated because my performance wasn't, you know, I wasn't jumping the heights that I wanted to jump and I, and I wasn't hitting the marks I wanted to hit. And so I actually got a recommendation to seek out who now is a mentor and a colleague of mine, but his name is Dr. Craig Manning. At the time was a women's tennis coach here at BYU, but he was studying sports psychology, finished his PhD. He wrote a book called The Fearless Mind, which is a great book. If anybody's looking for a book on mental performance or unlocking,

you know, the mind, the fearless mind is a, is a phenomenal. book there. I was an undergrad student, so I actually got to, I actually got to work with him on helping him write the book initially. This is, this is now, you know, 17 years ago. But I started to study the mental side of the game with Craig and it unlocked all of my physical abilities. And it was kind of, you know, a little bit miraculous. I went on, went on to start performing better. I went on to be an NCAA All-American. I went to four national championships, one of a bronze medal at one of them, and then went on to have a professional career.

It was only three years, and I went to two U.S. championships and was training for the Olympic trials in 2012. And so these were accomplishments or things that I'd only dreamed of as a kid, right? When I started to really apply the mental side of the game, I just unlocked my performance. And believe me, I am not a threatening athlete. I'm 5 foot 10. I'm like barely 160 pounds.

Like I'm just not, like you would look at me and go, this guy's a psychologist. He's a nerd. Like that makes sense. This guy is not an elite athlete. And so, but studying the mental side unlocked a lot of that physical side. And that's where I fell in love with it. So once I finished my professional career, I went out to the University of Missouri and I studied with another legendary sports psychology performance coach. And his name is Dr. Rick McGuire.

He's retired now, but legendary track and field coach, but he was the director's program out there. And I just soaked up everything that we studied there. And then I went into the field. And it kind of went on going back to that mantra question in terms of my mantra or even just sort of a life vision or mission. I essentially went on a mission to help other people have the same experience I did. Can we teach them? Can we help them apply? Can we help them learn how to control their thoughts and their thinking patterns so that they can unlock their performance? And like you said, it's not just unique to sport. It could be music. It could be performing arts. It could be business. It could be just being a good dad, good husband, good contributing member to society. So that's my story, right?

And that's where I fell in love with sports psychology. And now I get a chance to, you know, I get a chance. And we will talk more about this, but I'm here at BYU. I work with every sport, players from every team. We have a bigger team. We have a couple of mental performance doctors like myself, Dr. Manning's one of them. And then we have some clinical therapists on staff here. And so that's actually one distinction I want to make.

We've kind of designed our program here to support both sides of the mental health continuum, right? like some more serious clinical related needs. We have people here that help with that. So I have to kind of tell people, I'm not a therapist. I focus most on the performance side. I'm more of a coach. I'm more of a coach than anything. So like if I'm an athlete, I'm at BYU and I'm on a triathlon team.

And I can be like, oh, Dr. Lowe, I'd love to talk to you. I need some help. And I can consult with you and you help the team, like whoever asks. for help or maybe the coach says hey marks you better go talk to low over here because you need some some mental yeah it's kind of all of it right so like our door is is open and then a lot of players will reach out to me directly and they'll say hey can i come and meet with you and we'll actually when they when they start working with us i actually prescribe like six sessions and and part of that is because there's there's several we got to teach a little bit about the neuroscience and how the

brain works and how you actually wire in the right kind of thinking patterns and and then we work through each of the skills. And through my research and through my experience, I've developed eight categories. We'll probably talk about that. But I try to walk them through all of those skills. And then they go out and they start to train and they start to compete. And once they have a foundation, then we start to workshop things, right?

Players will come in and say, hey, I didn't play very great here. I felt like this piece was I was a little bit hesitant here. can we work through that? And so we kind of talk through and strategize and figure out the thinking patterns there. One more comment there, though, I work directly very close with all the coaches and the coaching staffs. And so they'll invite us in to do every team. We do several team sessions, like leading into a season where we get the whole group together.

We'll do team culture related things. And then, yeah, each individual coach, they may notice something about a player and go, something feels a little bit off. Why don't you go chat with Doc? and then help organize your mind there. Yeah. You know, when you were a pole vulture, before you started getting the help that you talked about getting the next level,

so what were you clearing, what was like your PR, personal record, and then after you got coaching and stuff, like how much higher were you able to jump? Yeah, yeah. Through my career, I came on and I was a 16-foot jumper, which is pretty, like really good at the high school level, like pretty good at the high school level.

But if you stay there, you're not going to have a chance at the collegiate level or the professional level. And then I climbed to 18 feet throughout my career. All right. This is so fascinating, but I want to get, I just got to jump ahead to get right to the good stuff. I mean, all of this is good, but like the good stuff that will help people. And again, we'll put all your information to show notes because people will want to get a hold of you. But you talk about a lot of different things, but we're going to hone in on the last thing I mentioned.

You talk about, so you can help people in a lot of different ways, how employees can become high performers, how executives can become high performers, how leaders can effectively motivate employees. These are all super important stuff. It's like part and parcel to leadership, but no one ever gets trained on it. So you can help people, how leaders can effectively motivate employees, how employees can have a more fulfilling work experience, the whole science behind it is like so fascinating. That could be like we could do a bunch of episodes.

But we're going to hone in on the eight mental skills that build mental. strength for high performers. So this might kind of be like overall. So can you share a little bit about each of these eight things, Bobby, so that our audience can benefit? And like I said, there's not enough time to go in super detail, but we'll put all this information in show notes. Yeah. Okay. So let me do two minutes on the neuroscience because we've got to kind of set the table here. I love studying the brain. There's the brain, which is like a lot of the mechanical stuff, right? And then there's the mind. And so we specialize a lot on working on the mind.

There's two pieces to that. There's your conscious mind and then there's your subconscious mind. And in short, your conscious mind is a lot of your active thinking. It's where decision making happens, problem solving happens. And then your subconscious mind is your memory, right? It's your storage unit. And so as you're actively thinking and making decisions and having these thoughts, they all get stored in your memory, right?

The things we think the most often, the things we say to ourselves, the loudest and we repeat the most often are the things that get stored and wired into the brain the strongest, right? And then those actually become habits. So in terms of an athlete, when you're training and developing physical skills, a lot of times it takes some conscious effort to focus on, okay, I got to execute this skill. So let's say you're a tennis player, right? And you're like, I want to have my forehand extended when I make contact with the ball. But if we repeat that and we do that over and over and over, we build the functional habit, which is the muscle memory, right? But then if we're thinking the correct way, why we're doing it,

we'll also build the structural habit, which is the wiring in the neuro pathways in the brain there. And so that's a lot of what I do when I coach players is how do we wire in the structural patterns there to help unlock your thinking. whether we like it or not, two types of thinking patterns will begin to wire in. And I like to call one of them reactive intelligence. And this is essentially the negative, the reactive, the kind of the bad vibe, right, the bad thinking patterns. And then I like to call the positive. I actually like to call it proactive intelligence. I don't really like the word positive, even though that's like a big, that's a big word in our field, just, you know, just think positive. But the brain is really objective. And it, it love specificity. And so when you say something like positive, there's some vagueness and some

ambiguity there, right? Like, what is positive? So I like the word proactive because it gives some direction to it. It gives a little bit of instruction to how we should be thinking, right? And so going back to the conscious mind, a couple of pieces there. We can control and we can choose those thoughts. The brain can really only handle one thought at a time. It can handle lots in rapid succession, but it really can only grab hold and handle one thought. The attention span there is typically five to seven seconds, and then it needs to kind of grab another thought, right? So as we train people, we teach people how to use their language and their communication,

and really it's called their self-talk, right, to grab that one thought and place it in that mind. We call it occupying that space, right? And then we actually train them to set up two or three of those thoughts and line them up. So if I was a pole vaulter and I was going to go and run down the runway and execute a jump, I had three thoughts, three cues that I always used. The first one was I got to grip the pole tight. So grip was my first cue. The second one was as I ran down the runway as I planted, the first motion you do as you leave the ground is rowing.

It's like rowing a boat, right? So my second cue was row. And then my third cue was pull hard because after you go upside down, Like, that's the skill that helps you launch yourself into the air like a catacled. And so if I could organize my mind and set up those thinking patterns that way, it actually blocks out everything that would be considered a distraction or an interference. I'm not thinking, oh, what if I miss? Or I didn't do that very well during my run up.

Or, man, the wind is trying to distract me and blow me off the runway, right? Like, if I organized my mind and I controlled those thoughts and I lined them up, I could essentially, because your brain can only handle one thought, it essentially blocks out all of the distracting and negative thoughts, the reactive intelligence that I was talking about. And so that's how the brain works, right? As we think, as we talk to ourselves, we're wiring in these two intelligences. If you're not intentional or haven't learned the skills of thinking the right way, negative or reactive intelligence will happen. And it happens because we're watching other competitors or teams, like the environment is having an impact on us, you know, umpires or refs, like they impact it,

coaches. And so how this applies to the business side, right, or the employee world, it's the same, right? Like I like to call myself a corporate athlete, right? And then you have managers, right? Managers and executives and they can be your coaches or your team managers or things of that nature, right? And then you're working on projects and tasks and maybe you have a specific skill. But all of those would be the same as me as a pole alter trying to execute my sports skill, right? And so I love just kind of making the connection there between the athletic world and the corporate world.

But now tying this back to the sports psychology side of it, there's really, really eight skills to organize and wire in or even engineer that proactive intelligence, right? So if proactive intelligence just means thinking the right way, there's eight skills. And I'll go through them pretty quick. The first one I love is called be a learner. And really the first skill here is having a strong self-belief that you can learn. You can grow your intelligence. You can grow and develop your skills.

A lot of this comes from the research that was done out of Stanford University with Carol Dweb and growth versus fixed mindset. So that's really the first skill. Can I learn? Can I develop? Can I grow my skills and my intelligence? And believe it or not, there's a huge percentage of the population that actually don't believe it. They believe their intelligence is fixed, and they believe their skills and potential is capped or limited, right? But the neuroscience research tells us the opposite. The second one is building, and actually I like to call these mindsets, right? So the first one is a learning mindset. The second one is a most. motivation mindset. But this is, this is essentially, what are the things that drive me? And there's

two types of drives. There's kind of internal drives that are more, more, you know, I do things because I love it and I enjoy it. And then there's external drives. I do things because some potential consequence or, or I'm chasing some potential reward, right? And we actually want to develop more intrinsic, internal approach oriented motivation. That's going to be the drive that carries. us the furthest. That's going to be the most enduring, the most impactful, right? If we're always chasing rewards like money or trophies or even external praise or promotions or titles, like it gives us a boost in energy, a boost in motivation, but usually it's short, doesn't last very long and it's fleeting, right? And then what happens once you've achieved that

reward, right? Like, you have to elevate it. You have to put out a bigger carrot to go and chase, So eventually it actually leads to a little bit of burnout. I think we're seeing that in the corporate world. The next two skills I love, but I call them kind of motivational behaviors, right? So the first one is resilience, which really is just the ability to bounce back anytime, you know, adversity comes or a challenge comes or a failure comes or a mistake comes, right? Do I have that resilient mindset to bounce back? The next one is the grit mindset, right? and that's the ability to just push through a lot of the research world we can call this willpower

you know so roy baumeister is a great author there like a lot of his research helps inform this i love angela duckworth and her research and a lot of her research informs this mindset but it's at its simplest form it's the ability to endure pain discomfort and just kind of push through right and i call those for kind of the motivational foundation right there are things that are inside of us that we get to just kind of push. The performance skills, there's four of them. And the first one, the first one I call it's the confidence mindset. And it's similar to the first skill of self-belief, but confidence is really, you know, do I have, what kind of strong self-assurance do I have in myself to be able to do a thing, execute a skill, accomplish a task, achieve a goal, right?

Do I believe I can go and do that? And really, it's the difference in its simplest, form, right? It's the difference between having an I can mindset versus an I can't mindset, right? And how often do we flood our brains with phrases like, oh, I can't do that. I can't go get that promotion. I can't go take on that new project. I can't, I can't go in and learn that new skill. Like, we limit ourselves just in the language that we use there. But confidence is the opposite side of it. I can go get that. I believe I can learn. I can go and accomplish that goal and achieve that thing, right? So I know we're kind of hustling through all these. The next mindset is actually, I like to call it the energy mindset, but it really has everything to do with our energy levels, our anxiety levels, our activation levels.

The psychology world, they call this arousal, but it's more than just that. It's your physical energy, your emotional energy, and your mental energy, right? And learning how to control that. And learning how to manage that. We know that our brain has a fuel tank on it, right? This is why at the end of the day, all of us are hammered, tired, and we just have to go to bed. It's because, and actually, the brain is pretty fascinating, right? The brain is only about 2% of our body weight, but it occupies 25 to 30% of all of the fuel and the energy that our body has, right? And so learning how to control that and learning how to be efficient with those, that energy is an essential mental skill that unlocks optimal performance. Yerkes-Dotson is a legendary, both of them are legendary

scientists, psychologists, and their research on the inverted youth theory, right? If you're, if you're too low, you're not going to be able to perform your best. If you're too hyped or over-hyped, you're going to be too anxious and not be able to perform your best. And so actually, the best area being right in the middle, right? That's where we can get our best. performance out. So if you think about that in terms of the corporate world, if you ever been trying to focus on a project and your anxiety is really, really high and your stress is really, really high, it's hard to focus in that moment. So being able to have techniques and strategies to help bring that anxiety down and that stress down helps us dial in that optimal performance. The same

thing happens on the other side. It takes me about 30 minutes to kind of just like wake up in the morning, right? If we're too low on this side, we're not going to be able to get our best out. Let me get to the next two really quick here. The last two here, the second to last one is the focus mindset. But this is really how do you direct your attention to the relevant and important tasks that help you make progress on a project or help you perform your best, right? There's so much information out there and our brain is so powerful at sort of consuming and absorbing everything that it will notice, we call them irrelevant cues, right?

but it will notice things and absorb things. And this is actually what I hate about, like our phones, right? Because like every notification, every message, every, like the bell goes off, right? And that pulls our attention. It grabs our attention every time. So we got to be able to develop the discipline to learn how to control that attention and direct it onto what do I need to do. Again, going back to neuroscience.

If your brain can only hold one thought, what's the relevant thought, the important thought or task that you need to focus on. And if you can focus on that, it will block out some of the other things, right? And if we get really, really good at this, it leads us to this enhanced experience that we call flow. I'm sure you've experienced, but it's sort of that really deep focus state where you lose track of time, you'll lose track of kind of what's going on around you. And it actually creates a very, there's a lot of positive emotions that come with that flow experience, right? And a lot of the flow research comes from Mihaly, Chick-Sept-Mahili, and his research. That's super fascinating there.

Even another book that I like is called Thinking Fast and Thinking Slow, Fast, Think Slow. Then the last skill here is decision-making. And really, decision-making is kind of the result of all of the rest of these mindsets being dialed in. So if you're confident, if you're focused, if you have dialed in your energy, if you've got grit and resilience and your high self-belief, our decision-making is going to be the most efficient. And actually, when we watch high performers, when we watch them perform like the Steph Currys

and the Tiger Woods and the Serena Williams and like the great athletes, all we're watching is them just making really great decisions. I'm going to go left. I'm going to go right. I'm going to take this shot. I'm going to hit this, you know, this shot. And I think the same thing applies when we get to this place in the corporate world, right? Great performers who get tasks done and complete projects.

And they're always like great quality in their projects have dialed in a few of these things. And they're just making great efficient decisions in there. So let me pause there. I know we ran through that pretty fast. No, no, this is great. Again, we're going to put all the additional content in the show notes so people can get more information and they'll know how to contact you. So let me just sort of end with this.

So I think the great hope here is, like if I'm listening, and I'm taking copious notes myself, I might be average, right? Because average is not bad. Average is what most people are. But I can outperform now a lot of others in the workplace or in the sports arena if I were to learn these things and apply them. And I know it's hard. I know there's probably not a direct science to answer to the question, but I think

think you might have some data point. How much improvement can I expect? Like you talked about the hot pull vault where you went from 16 to 18 feet. If I'm an average performer, am I looking at like a 5% bump, a 10% bump, you know, if I really apply these things? Yeah. Well, so a lot of that, a lot of that is a little bit circumstantial, right? It's kind of where you're starting from and what do you already have learned or what do you have already programmed in there? But I'll share a couple of thoughts. One is, I've yet to meet anybody, and maybe you have met somebody, but I've yet to meet somebody that has fully maximized their potential, that they have, like, piqued out. Yeah. And so what that, you called it the Great Hope, right? What that tells me

is that, like, there is a lot of room for us to get better and to improve. And if we can learn the skills and apply them, we can get better. I'll share two quick studies here. One, they did with endurance runners. And they broke them up into two groups and they said, okay, we're going to have you do an endurance task. And then we're going to bring you back in a couple weeks and we're going to have you do it endurance tasks again, right?

No interventions, no training, nothing. And that was the control group, right? So they did it, marginal, marginal, like small gains just from the first to the second, right? Then the second group they had, they said, you're going to do the baseline test and then you're going to do the second test. But in between, we're going to teach you. the language to use to talk to yourself while you're running, while you're performing this

endurance test. And from the first to the second test, they saw 22 to 30 percent increase in endurance. So they actually ran further. They exerted more endurance energy. And so they performed better, right? All because they were able to learn how they think. I'll share another quick study here. if you're a soccer fan, they measure penalty kicks that would result in winning the game. And they measure if the result of the kick just tied the game versus the result of the kick led to winning the game. They kind of categorize that into two different mindsets. One is playing not to lose, right? So I have a kick.

I have to make this kick or else we lose. And the other one is playing to win, right? If I make this kick, we win the game. And what's fascinating, actually setting the baseline here, the success rate of a general penalty kick in soccer is 80%. So the goal is at like a huge disadvantage, right? So if the baseline is 80%, and then you broke up those two groups, the group that the group that was shooting not to lose successfully kicked at 62% of the time.

the group that was shooting to win or with the mindset playing to win shot successfully 93% of the time. So you could see that there's a big difference in just how you're thinking going into that. Now, what's awesome about what I do is I coach people how to think and develop and program into their mind these patterns. So going back to that soccer penalty kick example, if you kick the goal and you're in a sense, scenarios that is, I hope we don't lose, all of those are external outcomes. Like, you can block those out and you can learn how to take an approach mindset and play to win even in that moment. And you can increase your results to 93% success rate. And so that's what's fun about the brain is that, like, the environment or the situation doesn't govern how you think inside of that situation.

You can be proactive and develop the proactive intelligence to then control how you perform within the environment. Dr. Bobby Lowe, so fascinating. How do people get a hold of you and learn more? You can find me. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Twitter. I'm on Instagram.

At Dr. Bobby Lowe. And my contact information is on BYU's website, so you can find me there. So thanks for having me, Ed. This was wonderful. I love the conversation. Now you inspire me. And like I said earlier, I think it provides great hope to people. So thank you so much.

Thank you for listening to Digital Voices Podcast. with Ed Marks. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe on your preferred streaming service and leave a rating and review. And most importantly, thanks again for listening.