Dissect - A Conversation about Conversation Pt. 1 by Mac Miller

Episode Date: November 26, 2021

In this bonus episode, Cole and Cam talk through Mac Miller’s “Conversations Pt. 1.” While the song feels like one big flex, as always, there’s layers beneath Mac’s bravado, including guilt, confusion, and paranoia. Shop Season 9 merchandise here. Follow Dissect on Tiktok, Instagram, and Twitter. This season includes discussion of substance misuse and addiction. For resources on these topics, visit spotify.com/resources. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome everyone to a special episode of Dissect. I am your host, Cole Kushna. And today I am joined with the co-writer of Season 9 on MacMiller's Swimming in Circles, Camden Ostrander. What I'm in? Hey, man, how you doing? I'm doing good. We're going to have some fun today. We're mixing it up a little bit on today's show. It's a technically, I guess, a bonus episode. We're going to talk about the song Conversations. We're going to have a conversation about conversations, part one. You might be wondering, why aren't we doing a full episode about this? So putting together this season, part of the challenge was trying to fit two albums essentially into one season and not making it this super long season, which would be upwards of like 30 episodes. So there was tough choices to be made about what songs might get cut. Conversations part one was one that we were eyeing that we thought, you know, maybe we can kind of just skim over. But we had the genius idea and we love linguistic threads on this show to have a conversation about conversation. and make it a little bit more informal while hopefully still giving you enough insight

to change your perception about the song or give you some thoughts that you might not have had on your own. So we're going to try to make this similar to the structure of a typical dissect episode, except it'll just be in conversational form. So let's jump in to Conversations Part 1 by Mac Miller. This is an occasion, ain't. I'm feeling good. All right, so Conversations Part 1 is produced by Cardo and Young Exclusive. You might have heard of them.

They've kind of made a big name for themselves. Somewhat recently, they produced Travis Scott's goosebumps. They produce Scoobloy Q's that part among many, many others. Some really, they got some bangers. It also lists additional production by Flying Lotus, which I tried my my heart is to guess what he did on this song, but it's hard to say. I don't know if you have any intel on that. Maybe ambiance, like some of the ambience, like some of those feelings to it, but that's just a guess. I really have no idea, yeah. Yeah, it's hard. Usually with Flying Lotus,

you can tell. Like, he has a very specific style, but I'm assuming he kind of came in after the fact because he does get additional production credit. I'd actually never really quite understand what that means. Like, I always assume that it means that the bowl. bulk of the song was done by, in this case, Cardo and Young Exclusive. And then Lotus was added later and just did some touches to what was already there. So they get that additional production because they weren't there for the meat of it, I guess. That's my best guess on that. It makes sense because the song seems like it came together over a long period of time.

Right. Like many of the songs on Swimming. This was one of the first we know that was written that made Swimming. It was an initial batch. along with jet fuel, which we talk about on that episode of this initial idea, I guess, before swimming was kind of cultivated and became what it was, Mac had had a mixtape that he was formulating. Was there a title?

Do you remember? It wasn't a type. The cover was picked. It was like a picture of Mac and his G-Wagon. And this is all according to Quentin Cuff in the book of Mac. But it's like, yeah, the picture for the cover was supposed to be the G-Wagon, had conversations. wings in jet fuel and a couple others, I think. Yeah, it was supposed to be more like bravado-driven.

I think he's named Faces style, kind of more loose and more just, yeah, him kind of flexing, which as we'll see is pretty apparent on this song. This and Jet Fuel is definitely Mac in his flexing bag. True. So let's get into the production a little bit. It's pretty simple. I would say probably the simplest song in terms of production on

on swimming if I can make that point. There's not too much going on. Harmonically, we have two chords, an F-sharp minor 7 and a C-major 7 that just oscillate back and forth. And what's cool about these chords, though, is the way that they're spaced out. So if you listen, it hits a low note.

There's a few low notes, and then it's followed by a couple high notes right after. That's part of the same chord. And so it gives us this kind of, airy floating quality as a sea sauce back between high and low and there's some echo and reverb on it that also give it this kind of floating quality so in a song that's going to be talking about space the way that these chords are spaced out literally is kind of a cool connection there's just a lot of wet kind of ambiance to the track a lot of reverb a lot of muted effects

in terms of like just the general tone of the keyboard which we're seeing on pretty much every song on swimming is the case is that it's the highs are cut out the lows are cut out and we're just getting this kind of underwater feeling to the tone of the instruments not to say anything about just the harmonic quality of it as well so it falls in line with that general sound that he talked about trying to cultivate on swimming that underwater feel so in that way i think it does compliment the album quite nicely. And then, yeah, once it starts to develop, it's kind of a somewhat standard drum loop.

Again, there's kind of just like a kind of a laid back. In my notes, like cruising altitude, you know, there's like just a kind of a nice pace, but not too high, not too low. It's kind of just Mac at cruising altitude here. Yeah, I don't know if you have any thoughts on the production. The other thing, I guess, about production, I mean, we're not talking about the end yet, which adds the little, the saxophone.

Yeah, we'll talk about that when we get there. Okay, cool. The other thing was that I've seen a lot of, and I mean, this is your forte more than mine, is that it sounds similar to I Am Who Am, off of watching movies, just the introduction section. When you talk about the wet quality to it, it does remind me of that music video, which, you know, involves a submerged woman and Max in this room where the whole floor is water and just kind of similar moods or tones to the instrumentation there at the start.

You're talking about the video for... I am who I am. Okay, got it. I haven't seen that one yet. Cool. So let's move into the first chorus. We ain't on the same shit. No way. You ain't from my planet. We don't speak the same language. This is in acation.

Ain't. I'm feeling good and hated. Shit, I don't recognize these faces. All right, so we get Mac starting the first chorus off with, We ain't on the same shit, no way. And then following up with, You ain't from my planet, we don't speak the same language. I mean, right off the bat, this is a little,

like he's taking himself apart from us, which is odd on swimming when he was looking for the connection from the start. This is why I think this song sticks out a little bit with the bravado aspects. When he says we ain't on the same shit, I do wonder what exactly he means, because that's obviously like a nice statement to be like, yeah, I'm on another level.

But we've talked about this album and the way he describes different substances. I mean, shit has that connection, at least motivically, right? Being from like different planets. Substances being drugs just to clarify drugs. Yes, yes. Sorry, I don't know what to say sometimes.

And then, I mean, this idea that we don't even speak the same language being like a complete disconnect i mean sometimes it feels a little bad when i try to think through this part right like if mac wants to talk he can't even he's totally separated himself um from any connection there like right off the start it's a bit of a a high horse you know right yeah that's that's similar to my analysis here um yeah anytime he says we end on the same shit the shit now is just a it's a it's a trigger in terms of like his kind of coded language and that's going to play out I think a little bit more or does play out in my mind a little bit more as we get

into the song where as he often does when he's kind of talking about levels it's yeah him artistically on another level flexing but also like I'm on another level because I'm elevated high and I saw the connection between the miscommunication that you you brought up kind of tying back in on to come back to Earth and like reestablishing some of that disconnect that he was feeling and really kind of laid out at the fore of the album, that kind of coming back. And I think that's kind of a common theme with him when he does flex. It's like it's like he flexes, but there's always that kind of undercurrent of because he feels elevated, he's separated, right? And I think Mack at his best moments is when he's not that when he's like on last. you know, specifically when he is on the same level, right?

And so, yeah, it definitely starts the song in a place of antagonism and almost kind of feeling good about the separation. Or at least that's how it's being presented here at the start. There's a flex to it. There's an ego which kind of ties into the outro of small worlds, right? And there's another part of this, like when you make the connection to come back to Earth, he's literally saying here, you ain't from my planet. Like, that's a direct nod, I feel like by him, like, as far as intentional stuff that we can look at. And I think we've done this throughout the season, but one of the challenges is like plotting out, okay, where is Mac? If we can like make a narrative, if we can find out where he is.

And he's really all over the place all at once, which is kind of part of this process. and I feel like right from the start here, we have that callback to the first song and already showing like he's in different places all at once. Right, and we should bring up too that this continues this kind of album long motif of altitude, of high and low, underwater and flight, which really come up over and over and over again,

almost every song continues this spatial theme. Now we're getting literal space, as we'll see. So let's continue on. this is an occasion, oh, this is an occasion, ain't it? I'm feeling good and they hate it. And once again, when he's feeling good and he's elevated, it's like you just, your mind kind of just goes to substances, to drugs. Yeah, it's tough.

I mean, I do also feel like this one, if we look at circles, foreshadows a bit of the good news material. You know, with, like, if he, I mean, we talk about this all the time with me. making art showing struggles what happens when he's not struggling is the art the same do people still want it and really like the real tension about public reception um when he was here that he i mean pretty clearly showed on his right and we should probably address like who's mac talking to right he's saying you um and it feels to me like especially now i'm feeling good and they hate it like he's talking to naysayers, he's talking to, like, the quote-unquote haters,

which then kind of goes into the next line, right? Shit, I don't recognize these faces. Yeah, where are you from? Who you came with? So right away, I mean, faces, I think, is like, ding, ding, ding. Like, it's going to automatically put your mind to that album, which has a lot of that kind of paranoia and kind of questioning new people around him after he's found success and kind of really thinking a lot about that kind of

thing. But I think these lines do make clear that he is at least in part talking to naysayers, but also like just the new people around him after finding success. Yeah. And like the party aspect, I think we can recognize. You know, like, oh, who brought you here? Why are you here? And like they started in the basement, I think also alludes. And we'll talk more about it, but like being inside and that motif through the album. Right. So the, yeah, so the hook continues started in the basement made it way to the top now i'm in the spaceship in a spaceship shit is spacious so my first thought i don't know was started from the bottom just the drake the drake kind of nod which then after faces i was like oh i did it all without a drake feature

yeah oh okay if he did that that's cool maybe yeah it's one of those things you know it could be intentional maybe not but anytime anyone now says started low i mean it's yeah it's kind of hard not to use that line and make it a drink thing. So maybe, maybe, maybe it's there. But it does set up this interesting, yeah, like you said, this continuing the high, low, but specifically like in the basement, in being inside, which we know has been a motif for being in his head, being isolated, right?

So it also sets up a line that we're going to talk about on Jet Fuel, which maybe we won't burn the lead here. he does say came from the basement under that floor. They don't even know that I'm the goat. Right. Like the basement, I think he, at least on these two songs that were going to be on that mixtape and about this flexing, the idea of where he has come from, what he's achieved, and like this low starting point, he's like repeating it and it's definitely on his mind.

Right. Whether it's because that growth is part of the flex or because like that just shows some part of that path that was unavoidable. I don't know. But yeah, they're definitely connected there. Right. And so,

yeah, just in terms of setting, you know, spaceship, he's in space. We got the nice wordplay with spacious and spaceship. But,

you know, I think if you're in space and maybe I'm thinking to literally a little bit, I just kind of try to picture back in this environment. It's like, yeah,

it's a high. It's like you are above quite, literally everyone, but it's also like really lonely up there, right? Like space is a lonely place to be. There's literally no one else there, which I think kind of gets back at that isolation, that somewhat kind of paranoia about connecting with new people, just never knowing people's motives, and just yeah, that general isolation that's been present on the album ever since literal song one, you know, with him being inside and scared to go outside. Here, he's

I guess technically outside, but he's still in a place of isolation, right? So like Mac kind of always seems to do, it's a boast, but there's layers, right? Like this could easily be just read as this cool chorus is, I'm flexing, I'm better than everyone, get the fuck out of here, like, you know, and but all these motific layers reveal that, and I think that continues as the verse, or as the, I guess, verse one starts, there's much more than what's on the surface. I mean, I love a space bar, but we also have to probably notice

this is maybe connected, at least, or maybe part of the inspiration for the imagery of, I think it's the good news video, where we see the diver figure also in space, right? And Mac talking about altitude and being above the top and that always reaching for more idea and how you want to pursue that,

but also there's danger and flying too close to the sun. or going too high or reaching a place that's beyond the rest of us, you know? Right. Yeah, and it does join also ladders, wings, jet fuel, Mercedes G-Wagon, all this vehicular motif that we've been kind of talking about all season. We'll continue to talk about specifically ones for flight, right? Like at least ladders, wings, jet fuel, all are talking about things that get him high,

whether, you know, good or bad, there's different ways he's gone about feeling, high, being high, all of them coming with, you know, there's certain amount of problems. And, and, yeah, it's just, it's just, again, like, like, there's so many threads on this album. It's been really a blast to kind of connect them all. It always just, like, takes me back to, like, his quote where, you know, one of the few quotes that we have about Mack that speaks directly about the concept of swimming, which he said was, you know, not a concept album per se, was in a narrative. driven album, but there was a central theme, and that was just him, that theme was a product of him just being as honest as possible. Motifically, it's so dense, right?

And everything is so interwoven overlapping and like, he's everywhere all at once because he's all honest. He's giving all of him. Like, there's no middleman. He's giving us all of it all the time. Right. So let's get into verse one. faith that ain't in the same.

All right. So, verse one starts out. Swear your life is basic. All you do is sit around the house. You're getting faded. This ain't, or that ain't entertainment. So I guess we should probably talk again about like, so who's he talking to here. Again, this could be still Mac, you know, talking to naysayers that he's now saying are lazy,

people around him that are lazy. It could be, these are just ones that I thought of, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts. We didn't really just, everyone knows, we didn't really talk about the song at all before we came here. So your interpretation is just going to be as in real time. So the other perception I thought was maybe it's his haters, talking about Mac or it's Mac talking to himself about himself in a younger state. I definitely saw the him talking to himself.

I think he could make a clear line between this line and on self-care when he says, let's stay inside and play some 45s in oblivion, right? The staying in the house getting faded and maybe looking for entertainment. And I think he's talking to himself. If this is also a song about, you know, his place in the industry, because there's a lot of talk about money. on here. Right. This ain't entertainment is him saying this is not the entertainment industry, but then he's kind of interrogating, can he make art, or is he just sitting around, just taking it all

then without making any of his own? What does the industry want from him? Or how can he succeed in the industry if he's not like constantly creating, which we saw was a thing for him, you know? Oh, right. Yeah. I think so you could, it could be, yeah, pressure from the outside of him not producing much or enough. Yeah, that's interesting. He's not, he's not entertaining others. Right. I feel like that might be a source of guilt. Right. You know? And like a little bit of self criticism here. Yeah, no, I think that definitely applies. And especially you getting faded, obviously is a pretty blatant drug reference. So yeah, yeah, I think that guilt is spot on. So that ties in.

Then with the next line, you miss in every single shot that you ain't taking. So we've heard this kind of motif again. In other songs on ladders we heard, I wouldn't wait forever, just shoot your shot. And then later on Jet Fuel, we're going to hear throwing up shots like I don't miss.

So I think the obvious metaphor is the common one where, yeah, you're not going to go anywhere. You're not going to achieve anything if you don't try. And so it ties into this theme of the first verse, developing here where yeah maybe Mac's feeling guilty about not producing enough not going forward enough

feeling like he's being quote unquote lazy there's like it continues the motif of playing games especially and it's perhaps it's allusion to the you miss 100% of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky Michael Scott quote and then

there's also I mean there is an alcohol element to this you miss every shot you don't drink Right. So. Oh, damn.

Nice. I like that. Which was like when we get to jet fuel, that's a throwing up shots like I don't miss. That's even more kind of blatant alcohol thread there. Which, yeah, definitely applies, especially after you getting faded 100%. So then we get,

Hey, kid, you could use a little bit of your imagination. It could do you right, improve a life you busy waste in. Yeah. Again, I, feel like this is the guilt. You know, like, if he's talking to himself, he's telling himself to use his imagination.

We also have heard him talk over the years about his worries or concerns that his drug use was in part to, I don't, to credit his work and his art, the idea that, like, I can't make the same art if I'm not engaging in these same behaviors. Right. The imagination would be the more pure, childish, you know, skill. to make art. And I feel like he's maybe blaming himself or looking at this type of stuff in trying to convince himself to use what he has to make something. Right. Yeah, it does continue this another, I guess, more minor motif, but there has been this relation from,

where anytime he mentions kids or youth, it usually comes with this idea of imagination. And we've talked about that. I can't remember what episodes. But, you know, Shell Silverstein, was a big influence on him, and he talked about interviews of just the imagination of children and children's stories being kind of psychedelic and tapping into these outside the lines is how he'll put it a lot, right? It's just not coloring inside the lines and just trying to reach that next level beyond the boundaries of adulthood, specifically. Again, we have wasting, you know, busy wasting is wasted.

You know, so there's another kind of slight allusion to using drugs. So I think goes into, I guess, what we can call a refrain. I guess it's a refrain technically, yeah. It's that it's your money if you make it. Otherwise, it's just a conversation. So we get obviously the title of the song here, nodded to, and kind of implying that this whole first verse is a conversation, which, yeah, again, could be named.

maysayers could be himself, does feel more in mind with him talking to himself. But yeah, I'm curious to hear your thoughts because this is one, the refrain is a little bit weird to me, or not weird, it's just not quite clear what it means. The phrasing is just a little bit odd. So I'm curious to hear your interpretation of it. Well, it's tough to like wrangle what he's saying here because just the conversation feels unmack. I think we played it in the season opener, but there's a clip of him saying, like somebody's asking him about how he feels about people interpreting his art. And he says that art is a conversation. It should be a conversation. You should have your feeling. I have mine. And we talk about it. And that's what this whole thing should be. So obviously he cared about and valued conversation or at least seem to, right? So the idea of it's just a conversation, I always like kind of hit a wall of like, but you, that it seemed like this is an ideal. So the just thing

So when I try to think about it I try to wrap my head around the simultaneously Which we see him use all the time Right where he's like saying something That has a bunch of different interpretations And it seems like it has multiple Intentional interpretations Because there's the boast of

If you just talk and talk and talk You're not actually making anything You're not using your imagination You're not making anything for the entertainment industry You're not making any money but there's also this idea that the money over shrouds anything he can create, right? Right. Swimming is so deeply personal and he talks so barely about or so rawly.

That's not even a word. This is why we don't do conversation. So he talks like he lays himself bare and there's going to be perhaps a monetary reward for that. And I think that kind of makes some guilt because if you're making all this art and you feel guilty for the reward you get for making all the art, right? That's a real concern. And we saw that with Max whole career because his career took off really fast. And it's in part not just because of what he made. There are other factors that were a big part of why his career took off so fast.

And he, it seemed, struggled a long time with how to. kind of process that, right? So the idea of like, what is his, what money does he have, like, and how that just plays a role in his art? It honestly seems incomprehensible. Like, you cannot make sense of all the guilt that could be playing into it or how it clouds imagination and the idea of pure art when you're stuck in the entertainment industry. Right. Yeah. And I think my initial interpretation, I think all that's definitely there.

but if he is kind of talking to naysayers and elevating himself as more of a flex, it seems like it could be just like a clever rewording of like, you're all talk, right? Exactly. Yeah. So it's just, I think, yeah, I think there's more under the surface, but I think that's kind of like the initial kind of flex. It's just like, and you'll see in verse two, he's going to say like,

we got pocketful of aces. We don't say anything. we just do we just you know we're just the shit and we're not going to tell you about how we're the shit we just we we act we make the money um and we and we do it so which is a good flex like that is a big flex you should be you know but yeah right um all right so then we move into the free or the the the first pre-course All right. All right.

Lacing up my sneakers, I'll be running out of patience. Yeah. It ain't your money till you make it. Otherwise, it's just a conversation. All right. So Matt kicks off the first pre-chorus saying, okay, why are you always hating? Lacing up my sneakers. I'll be running.

I be running out of patience. By the way, it takes me like so long to record, like, rap lyrics as you hear them on dissect because they just don't they're not meant to be said the way that I say them right absolutely are not which all you out there listening like I understand like it's very funny when I read certain lines like I'm very aware of that that's the appeal that's that's the best part anyway so let me give me on another shot here okay why are you always hating lacing up my sneakers I'd be running out of patience um so this feels this felt like to me max like response to the verse.

So if he's talking to, if he's talking to the naysayers, or if the naysayers are, if he's voicing the naysayers about him, then this is now Mack responding, saying, why are you always hating? Now I'm going to lace up my sneakers. I'm going to actually start doing the thing.

I'm going to get in the race. I'm going to run. I'm going to do the things. And I'm not going to be in my room being wasted, not doing anything. Oh, okay. I really had not even considered that, that this was him talking back at that first verse.

And that makes sense because he did think of his structure. There's some interviews where he talks about the structure and concept of songs of different verses speaking to each other or a verse and a chorus interacting, which is always really neat to see him talk about. So it makes a lot of sense. So now you've got to sit here and think about that for the second. I don't know. Like the way I was like, oh, it's a funny double entendre.

He's lacing up his sneakers and running out of patience to run. Yeah, yeah. It's also interesting, I think, here to see if we're looking at this flex being a bit apart from the rest of swimming, he's got shoes on here. And there's definitely some progression or something to be made of no shoes on here, no shoes on the cover, and the one shoe on self-care. Self-care video. Yep. And yeah, sorry, the video, yeah. And then there's also the idea of like if he's boasting about being on a.

spaceship, but now he's running. So he's simultaneously like at this high other world great thing. But a run and exercise in being grounded, these are all things that he was promoting at the time as ways, you know, to give himself headspace. So yeah. Right. Yeah, we should probably also acknowledge the continuation. Lacing up sneakers kind of ties back into missing every shot. You ain't taking like this idea of game of basketball, of him getting it, literally getting in the game. And that's kind of why I also thought it might be now a different perspective talking to who was voicing the first verse because they were saying, you're missing every shot you're not taking. Now he's saying, okay, now I'm, now I'm getting in the game. Now I'm lacing my sneakers. Um, which then again,

like, so we get, I did refrain again right after this. Yeah, ain't your money until you make it. otherwise it's just a conversation, which could just be a simple repeat and have the same meaning that we had talked about. But if we're kind of playing with the perspectives here, it could almost be like him, like affirming himself now. Like I'm going to go out and get the money.

I'm going to go out and do the things. And now I'm not going to talk anymore. I'm actually going to do the things. And I think that does, as we'll see, play into what then becomes the first or the second verse, sorry. and the progression there. Because there's a clear difference between verse 1 and verse 2, where verse 1 is complaints about someone being lazy,

whether that's Mack himself or his haters or his haters, you know, talking about him when he was younger, perhaps. And then he actually panned out to be successful, even though he was in other people's eyes being lazy, just getting wasted and making music. Like, that's obviously, if you're not successful at that, that becomes people's perception of that is like, yeah, you're just, you're not doing anything with your life, right? And then in verse two is going to be way more present day flexes about

what he's done after success. Literally, you know, the first line of the verse two is everybody famous, everybody wild, everybody dangerous, get a couple dollars, now they act as strangers. So there is a kind of linear progression timewise between the verses. And so, yeah, let's jump in, actually let's take a quick break and then we'll come back with verse two. All right, welcome back to dissect. Before the break, we had the first pre-chorus, which then goes into a repetition of the chorus. Was there anything on the repeat that you wanted to point out that

kind of changed after the context of verse one? Or are you safe to just kind of say it's a simple repeat? I feel safe to call it a repeat, I think. Yeah. Yeah, the same feeling. So let's go ahead and get into verse two. Everybody's famous Everybody wild

Everybody's dangerous Get a couple dollars Now they act to strangers Now they want to give a couple statements When you really about it you don't say shit Pocket full of aises Take over my city Yeah that's really home invasions

All my homies with me getting busy No vacations They ain't on my way But they waitin Stop before you're running through your saviens Yeah All right so verse two kicks off Max says everybody famous, everybody wild, everybody dangerous, get a couple dollars, now they act the strangest, now they want to give a couple statements.

I mean, it's a pretty cool opening. I really like that. I think, I think this is where I want to, there's something really cool happening in this song, and I think it's okay to say it now because we're in the second verse and Max really going. He makes the whole song rhyme. I don't know if you feel like this. but there's a way he delivers this stuff. And I say this right now because the dangerous is like the craziest rhyme I think he makes. So the claim is that the entire, from start to finish, the song rhymes. Yeah, so every line ends in something that rhymes with how Max says conversation.

And especially the A, the conversation, like that sound really gets emphasized as almost always the next to last syllable. And so he's always making it dangerous. Like, he makes that two syllables. So it's dangerous. Like, so it is conversation. Even one that would not make sense at all make it.

He makes make it. He does the A. Dude, that's crazy. You're pulling my mind. Yeah. So, like, first off, if he wanted to make that rap,

mixtape, and flex on everybody, this would be, yeah, this would be Mac wrapping everybody out, right? Like,

come on now. That's ridiculous that he made this all. It also does go to his delivery, which some people, I mean, I love it, but like he does, there's a mumbullish aspect to it, right? There's a bit of a slurring to it. It does also, in my mind, kind of reflect or at least correlate with how he's everywhere all at once and how all the words jumbled together. You look like the artwork of all the letters in the circle, like it's all kind of held in something, which is kind of interesting. So yeah, the day. By the way, that's amazing.

I don't know if that was obvious to everyone, but I literally just realized that when you said it. So I just got to acknowledge, nice find. It just changed my whole perception of the song. It's awesome. Yeah, but I think it makes sense with the mixtape thing. Like, this was, that's a lyrical exercise. You do this consciously, right?

Yes. And if you're thinking about how am I going to flex as an MC, this is one of those ways, right? Like Kendrick does this all the time where it's like, he's he's the the full verse or the full song will be a concept you know and and that's just a way to it's like a subtle flex like not everyone's going to pick that up

I mean I didn't pick that up and I actually analyzed the song so if I didn't pick it up I'm going to assume like there's a lot of people that didn't pick it up but I bet you most MC worth anything would notice that right away I mean Mac Miller nice too though like we know this jason said this macsman is too though um so you know um yeah i don't and then there's a cool thing here with a um getting a couple dollars and then a couple statements because it's like bank statements right yeah to me which i thought was neat yeah so my guess my interpretation

i i kind of previewed it before but this this felt like to me a flash forward so where the verse one was got it what i especially with the you know hey kid and then saying like you're not doing anything, use your imagination. That to me kind of put it, put my mind like, okay, he's talking about maybe a younger version of himself

or someone is talking about the younger version of him. Now we're flashing forward where he had, he found the success, he laced up his shoes, he made the money, he got the couple dollars, and now people around him are acting different, right?

Which just goes back into, there's all these new faces around me and just that paranoia, and just like, yeah, that adaptation of fame, right? And everything that fame encompasses is implied here. Everybody wild, everybody dangerous, like partying, touring, living recklessly, all that's present after his life post-success. Yeah.

So it's kind of like this cool juxtaposition for those of you. For those of you playing dissect bingo, you didn't think I was going to sneak it in. So we get this cool juxtaposition between the first of you. first verse, second verse, these different perspectives, different timelines, all kind of slotted into this track. So now the conversation's

different, right? That was the main difference between verse one and verse two. Before people thought that they thought they were the elevated ones talking down to Mac being lazy, wasting his life away. Now he's the one above, and now they're the ones wanting something from him,

right? Which then transitions into the next lines. When he really about it. You don't say shit. Pocketful of aces. I mean, I just, I get on the gambling part of this one when I hit something. So like, first off, I'm kind of still reeling and I really like that structural concept. But I think here it's important to acknowledge the way pocketful of aces is both like a great like, I'm not saying anything. I have everything up my sleeve or in my pocket. Like I've got it all. Everything's set. I'm good. I've made this happen. Right. But then when we look at gambling throughout swimming.

And I mean, there's a reason there are dice on that merch, right? Yeah. So I think the pocketful of aces definitely at least respond, like, is like the, I throw my cards on the table, the gamble of do you say what you want to say, do you say what's inside? And the idea of like card games. And just the way that like that's an interaction between people and you're trying to read each other in trying to figure out what to say, how honest to be, right, how to play and how to lay your cards. Also, the idea that life gives you a hand and how to play the hand you're dealt.

I think it's a really neat extended motif that it really does fly under the radar of swimming. But I feel like it's really important to call that when we see it because it's cool. Yeah, I mean, this is the thing about motifs, I would say, obviously, beyond Max's work, but specifically in Max's work, where, yeah, without that, Without that motif running throughout swimming, this would just be a flex, right? It would be like, we don't say shit, we're just about it. We go about our business and we're, you know. But, yeah, you can't bring up gambling without then referencing everything else tied to gambling on the album. And so you get these, again, with Mac, it's like he's going to flex, but there's always going to be something beneath that, something more complicated, something more vulnerable beneath that.

And just so people, we didn't say it, but. I don't know if people, everyone knows this, but pocket aces is the best starting hand in Texas Holden poker. You get dealt two cards in the beginning of Texas Holden. So if you get dealt two aces, that's like the, I guess, the best hand in Texas Holden gambling. So it's just, again, another flex. So then that flex kind of continues, take over my city. That's really home invasions. All my homies with me.

Getting busy, no vacations. So we get the nice Pittsburgh kind of shot out. here, get the flex of Mac staying true to his, you know, day ones, bringing up his, his kind of family with him from Pittsburgh, I'm assuming, is the kind of tie there between take over my city and then following that with all my homies with me, with the home and home invasions and city. So we get to getting busy, no vacations, which again kind of applies that work ethic. That's alluded to. to in the previous line, but also

I thought was like a sexual innuendo which he's done a lot on this album. Oh. Getting busy. Oh, wait. That is? Oh, this is not taking a trip. Oh, wow. Oh, my God. He does this a lot.

He does this a lot. Which ties into like the opening statement of the verse, everybody famous, everybody whacked and wild, everybody dangerous. Like, again, this superstar lifestyle, which is going to come with some ladies too. Yeah. And the like the missing the flights, oh man, he's doing it over and over again. I laugh at the, that's really home invasions. That makes me laugh, which is nice. It is nice on swimming to be able to laugh at at least at least this song, which is nice.

Well, it makes sense too. Like, why would he say that? But it's like, oh, he's doing the rhyme thing. Like he's finding ways to. Invasion. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So we continue on. They ain't on my wave, but they wave in. which I thought, I mean, really cool workplay also obviously tying in with the water motivic theme throughout the album, but here using it to flex. It's

what? You just looked at me in shock. Literally just had the all right. So here's the thing, right? This verse is really cool, really great flex. I always like to think about merch as like an actual real intentional extension of the album. Especially with this. We're going to talk about that on the finale,

I'm assuming, but. But this is the merch verse. If this is his thing about making money, and this is like, look at all the money I make. Here's my merch. The gambling is the dice, and the wave is the wave on the hoodie. And guess what we're doing when we buy all the merch

is we're running through our savings. That feels pretty good to me. That feels nice. That's good. That's really good. Nice. That's, yeah. That's great.

Yeah. That's awesome. And it's also a beach, but it's great. No, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, the dice thing's totally, I think that's valid. I mean, not just here, but just the gambling. That's not something you'd pick up just casual listening, but the gambling thing is definitely a thread. All the merch, I think, I haven't done like a formal analysis on it, but just a surface level kind of thought, experiment about it.

It all ties back to the concepts and the motifs. So there's a big one that we're going to reveal at the very end of the season that we're holding in despite me just wanted to do like a million million TikTok videos on it and blow up the internet. But we're saving it. Okay. So they am on my wave, but they wave in. Yeah, it's kind of the same as we ain't on the same planet, right? It's just that elevated. We're not on the same level, not on the same surface.

you know the swimming the swimming parallel right where all the ways he travels are kind of seen as parallels so like that spaceship being like swimming i mean floating here yeah and the float of it i also thought of it as like the the waving hello like this disconnect still right um so like waving hello but waving goodbye and just how there's a bit of a connection but there's also it's they're separated yeah and it's also like it's like a per capita or something like right they're waving at him in at almost like in adoration because he's on another level he's a successful one he's in a spaceship like he's what they're waving at him um so then we get stop it boy you're running through your savings so I thought this was a cool continuation

of what was you know founded in the first verse where he said uh hey kid where you get that kind of childhood reference he brings that back with stop it boy you're running through your saving so now it's it's interesting again like that juxtaposition between the verses before it was like you need to be more kid like use your imagination be creative make the money now he's spending his money like a child or if it's someone talking to mac now which i think is the case um he's blowing his money he's being reckless he's spending like a child not you know playing for the future all that kind of stuff yeah there's also a development from running out of patience to running through your savings.

Oh, yeah. And I really do get sometimes caught up in the idea of, like, art and money and how those things interact and how it kind of taints each other. I mean, patience is a virtue and money is not, you know? And so that development, I feel, is there. Yeah. Right. So then that gets us to the second pre-chorus, which is slightly different. We get two different lines and then a restatement of the refrain.

So let's hear that. All right. So he kicks off the second pre-chorus with, yeah, I just feel amazing. My head up in the clouds, but my feet be on the pavement. So I'm going to toss this to you because I know you got, you all want to say this. I love it. This is right up your alley. Yeah, this is like the simultaneity of like high and low is really great here. The idea of him being grounded but also looking up is really great.

Because honestly, it probably is the best way to be is to be like realistic and tied to reality, but also thinking of better. Right. If we're talking about like the wisdom that is like coming through this album, this is, I think, a piece of wisdom. It does also reference the when living off a borrowed time, often I'm on the fence. on a line adding up with some of my mind my feet on the clouds head on the ground so he's changed from perfecto yeah so he's like flipped it right and i they're almost i really wanted the math i did the math on this one i really wanted them to be like mathematically parallel or something in the run time of the album i wanted something so bad but it wasn't it wasn't there and i think

there's also a possible reference to an earl sweatshirt verse on faces now i would I wish I'd taken a note about this. But there's like, Earl Swechard has a, like a line about his head being in clouds, but his toes in the struggle, I think. And I think his also had to deal with, like, being high or something. I should have remembered to write that down when I had that thought. But, yeah, I really like this line. It's just a conversation, man.

Yeah. Yeah, I think for me it was like, so, yeah, so on perfecto, he says feet in the clouds, head on the ground. So, you know, if we're thinking about the substance thread of this song, it could be maxing, I'm high, but my feet are on the pavement. I'm still grounded. I'm still making money. I'm doing all the things that I need to do. And I'm, you know, I'm doing drugs, but like I got my shit together. Right. Um, it could be, you know, head up in the clouds. Again, like isolation, um, not, you know, being foggy headed, um, because of the substances, which is like why the clouds motif kind of works so well for that, uh, analogy, because he's feeling good, but he's also isolated, he separated.

It's hazy. It's like, you know, he's not grounded in reality. But here it feels like, to me, in line with the flex of the, of the, of the entire. song of like, yeah, I'm high, but I got my shit together. My feet are on the pavement. I got my shoes on. I'm laced up. I'm running. It's also the album cover, you know? Right. He's his heads up in the plane, but his feet aren't dirty, right? So it is the album cover. And I feel like it is that that middle trans, because like part of what he's capturing on swimming, I feel beautifully. And one of the things it's really hard to articulate, but he does it, is being simultaneously multiple things

at once because that probably is the most accurate way of explaining what existence is like. Right. Because we are so many things at once, right? Yeah. And so being in the liminal space of being in that doorway that kind of the cover is and having his head being inside that container, but also being with the clouds. And then his feet being in the white, empty space, but also being dirty as if they've been on the ground. Right. In the pavement.

Nice. Yeah. I love that. So after this pre-chorus, we get a repetition of the chorus, which is then followed by a really nice musical outro. All right, so we get a nice musical outro. There's a saxophone that's introduced. I think you had said earlier you had something on that. Oh, I just love it.

I mean, I think the guy is Kenneth Whelam, I might not be pronouncing it right, but he's also credited on ladders. Oh, okay. And those horns, like, are, that's beautiful. So, like, I just love everything that guy did on this album. It's really great. Yeah, and it's cool because it's minimal. Like, it's not like a full-blown sax solo, which could easily have been the thing here.

It's more of a saxophone texture. Right. And also, I just love a saxophone outro. Oh, I know. I was going to say it's not the world star. Yes, that is. You know me? Yep.

Yeah. Yeah, it's nice. So what he's doing, I believe, is, like, tremolo where you're just kind of oscillating between two notes somewhat fast, which in my mind always sounds like bubbles. And this is definitely a subjective hearing, but it's just kind of like that rapid, like it always sounds like bubbles to me. So just my personal hearing of it always felt fitting to the song and the album of that underwater theme. Just especially with the echoes and stuff, it just adds that certain flavor.

to the mix that just really nice, really tasteful. Like I'm always appreciating when musicians, I don't know if this was a direction Matt gave the sax player or if this is just what the sax player heard. But I always love when an obviously talented musician, such as this player is, is refrained, you know, is... Restrained. Restrained, sorry.

Conversations. Yeah, just isn't afraid to just. this not shine because you can easily could have belted something out, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it would have just taken the song to another place. I don't know if it would have been good or bad, but here is just, it fits the vibe of the song. This song, generally speaking, is again, I think I think of cruising altitude. There's not acceleration. There's just, and actually your analysis of

every line rhyming kind of fits that where it's cruising altitude. He's found a groove and he's just there and he's just riding it. The song doesn't have much in terms of dynamics going too high, too low. There's no changes in tempo or, you know, there's nothing. It's just pretty straightforward. And the sax player, I think, compliments that really nicely. It's just like a nice, nice detail, which we've discovered so many of these details,

musically, lyrically on this album that, you know, hearing him talk about the way that they cultivated this, this album of, you know, what seemed to be, I don't know, definitely upwards of a hundred songs or something that he was working on, really honed in, selected the ones, and then just really put a lot of time into those small details that, you know, I think why this album feels different than, at least for me, that why it feels more developed is those small details, those things that just come in for a moment, coming in and out.

You'll hear him just once in the song. Like, Tyler is really great at this. And the more and more I've been thinking about Mac and Tyler, I just feel like there's like parallel figures in terms of someone that just got better and better and evolved. And Tyler, that's something that I feel like he did or continues to do so well. It's these small production details that it's the reason why we can listen

to certain albums over and over again and still find them interesting. You're not going to consciously say, oh, I just hear this one thing, like, for a second, like, but I think on a subconscious level, it's always a little bit unpredictable or always listening hearing a little bit, something new every time.

And again, I think that the sacks, while that's an obvious example of something coming in at the very end, and only briefly, I think it speaks to this larger quality of the album of just taste, man. Like, there's just a, taste level on this record where all the choices were made

just so, so well instrumentation-wise. So I think that gets us to the end of conclusions. Conclusions. Conversations, part one. I do want to talk about the title because

part one implies there was going to be a part two. I haven't found anything about a part two or conceptual part two. So I do wonder if the plan was to have a part two or if part one somehow is supposed to clue us in on something about this song. I mean, I think you see it with like the conversation happening throughout this that it could obviously be continued. I mean, we obviously don't know what the future held. I mean, we know what the future held. We don't know what it could. Yeah.

There's, I think there's something really beautiful going on with swimming in circles. with incompletion being complete. I think you hear this in the final note of circles. I think you feel this in perfecto in accepting the imperfect as perfect. But because sometimes we get caught up in the idea of like we need to feel whole or we need something to reach a resolution

but that might not happen ever. And we need to accept that, I think, as its own version. So when I see conversation part one, I think it's an invitation to accept a beginning without knowing the ending. Yeah, that's beautiful. I like that a lot, actually. I didn't think about that. But whether that was intentional or not, I think that's a perfectly reasonable, very insightful kind of observation about.

I think, no, it really is because it does, I mean, that's so much of this album, right? It's like him really trying to come to terms with accepting exactly what it is in front of you in this moment, good or bad, most often simultaneously good and bad, and just being okay with being okay, being okay with not being okay, being okay with, yeah, not knowing the full story, not ever got to know the full story. And just trying to always get back to the now and just kind of living for today in this moment, which is the only thing we know for sure, right? So I like that a lot. My only addition to that would be because I kind of saw this as multiple perspectives shifting in and out and this conversation in the song itself, you know, we have this almost like a forewarning if the perspective shifts. and someone says to him, stop it, boy, you're running through your savings. I don't know how that could be Mac

talking to anybody else in this song. That feels like someone talking to Mac, which is a shift in perspectives because before that he says, they out of my wave, but they wave in. And then in my view, the perspective shifts, stop it, boy, you're running through your savings. So my idea of maybe if there was a conversation part two,

maybe it would have been, that was going to be the next conversation was going to be, okay, we found Mac before success first one, you know, we found Mac after success kind of living recklessly. It's like he was kind of implying that he's living recklessly. Head on the, you know, head in clouds, feet on the pavement. You know, there's an illusion to, you know, a possible conflict there in the long term. And if someone's coming in to warn him, hey, you're kind of wild and out. You're blown through your savings. You're kind of like the success is getting to you and it's not sustainable. Maybe the conversation part two was going to, you know,

how do you live after success? Successfully, right? Right. That was the only thing that, you know, I thought about if there was going to be a part two, if it was even going to be conceptually linked to this, you know, definitely could be an overreach and thinking too much about it.

But that was the only thing about the song where I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting. It kind of leaves you on this, at least, you know, the end of verse two leaves you on this kind of like unresolved note right like yeah you're running through your savings now what like he doesn't ever kind of resolve that he just says hey I feel amazing my head's in the clouds you know like I'm cool right now but you know that's not the case long term so gotcha that was my I like yours better I like yours better that's true cool man I think that was good I don't know that's fun anything else you wanted to talk about

I didn't want to just add like one, I guess like one and a half last thing. You might want to point like, I like to try to think about a narrativeish track through the album. Yeah. And now I'm trying to remember if we even mentioned this, but he's in a spaceship. So if the preceding track is small worlds, now he's in a spaceship. This is the place from which he can see the small worlds. I think that might be a really neat thing, kind of that he maybe saw or maybe just coincidence. And then I think there's definitely like him coming back down to the clouds for Dunnow.

because he might be like taking the spaceship and making it a plane. Like I mean there's just there seems to be some alteration in altitude. And there's also I think, I mean, because we talked about this like what can we say about this song? What is there to the song? But I also think especially if we look at that rhyme and just how beautifully flexing Mac is here, how beautifully skilled he is. This is almost this is kind of an achievement of the ability to be present in a moment.

Right. to be able to appreciate the cruising altitude, to engage in a conversation with somebody else, regardless of like how good that conversation is or how right anybody is in that conversation. But to be in the moment and to have those things. Right. And how important that is. Amidst all the turmoil of the whole thing.

It is really beautiful to have this moment. Right. Yeah. And I'm glad that you... Yeah, I love that. I'm glad that you pointed that kind of narrative. I don't know if it's a narrative thread, But there does seem to be some intention in the track list in terms of songs kind of connecting to each other. I think the most clear one is this idea going from, I guess, self-care you can make the case, but really with wings, ladders, small worlds, there's this continued flight aspect that I think is pretty intentional in that middle run of songs in the album. Even bridging that, yeah, small worlds.

And then conversation he is talking about being in the cloud. that's going to continue on Dunno. Dunno literally takes place in the clouds. That's going to continue into jet fuel where he's in the clouds, but it's another kind of twist on that of the clouds and what that means. And then actually I won't say anything about how that ties into 2009. I don't want to give that away. But there's definitely a progression of him being high.

Again, there's multiple implications with that on this middle track. of songs and this middle run of songs, which is definitely going to culminate into 2009. And if we're reading so it goes as kind of the credits rolling on the album, it does really, everything is building up to 2009.

And I guess I should end it there before we get too much ahead of ourselves. But I think the listeners are going to appreciate this kind of thread that we're reading. Yeah. Or not. Or they'll hate it. Right.

I think it's, there though I think it's there's enough stuff going on that um in an album where he literally comes back to earth on number you know track one and grounds us literally there's this these attempts in the openings of the song or the opening run of songs to kind of to lift himself to find that altitude and then once sustained on the middle track we're going to see how it kind comes down again making a circle. So that's a little tease for the rest of the season. But yeah, that was cool.

I think I had fun. What do you think? I had a real nice time, Cole. Thanks for the conversation. Yeah, that was a good conversation. All right, guys, we're going to tap out here. Let us know if you like this or not. I think I would like to do more of these conversational episodes.

They're fun. I learned some new stuff in real time, which is always good. That is fun, yeah. And let us know if we missed anything, or you guys will do that anyways. Thanks, guys. You see my DMs and the Reddit threads. They definitely let us know what we missed. Anyways, all right, Camden, great job.

Thanks. On to now Dunno and Jet Fuel.