Dissect - Baby Keem Rises, J. Cole Falls: Discussing ‘Ca$ino’ and ‘The Fall-Off’

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

A five-year wait and a double-disc finale set high stakes. Cole Cuchna and Charles Holmes ask: Did Baby Keem and J. Cole deliver? Dissect Season 14 is just around the corner! Follow ⁠@dissectpodcast on Instagram⁠ for an official announcement coming very soon. Host: Cole Cuchna Guest: Charles Holmes Producer: Justin Sayles Editor: Kevin Pooler Engineer: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome everyone to a special episode of Dysect. I'm your host, Cole Kushner. And it has been 1,624 days since Baby Keem released an album. But the drought is officially over with this brand new project casino, released this past Friday. Here to break it down with me. Also, we'll be talking about Jay Cole's The Fall Off. On the second half of this episode is the Yin to my yang,

my brother from another mother, Charles Holmes. Charles, how you doing, man? I am so excited. and so honored when you texted me, you're like, bro, you want to discuss baby Kim? I'm like, you know what? I'm going to dust off the old music takes. This is technically not Last Song Standing, but I feel like spiritually it is. It always is.

Yeah, when me and you get together, for those that don't know, we have another show that runs on the Dysack feed called Last Song Standing. New season will be coming out this summer, but today we're going to talk about casino and the falloff. I've got some things to plug, though, Charles, if you just bear with me. Because this is the first episode of Dyscéecexie. sect in the new year and season 14 is coming there's going to be an official announcement about that very very soon like very soon and then also i'm very excited about next week's episode i

dk about his brand new mixtape uh even the devil smiles it is a fantastic conversation i think it's my best interview yet he was so cool and vulnerable and everything i wanted in an interview so that is dropping next week and if you haven't listened to even the devil smiles it is my favorite album of the year so far. So definitely listen to that before the interview next week. So Charles, are you familiar with IDK and or his new mix tape? Have you listened to it yet? Not really, you know, I've been slacking. I was in Keemland and unfortunately I was in the Ville, you know, so I have not ventured that far outside of it. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's your homework assignment. All right. Everyone's homework assignment. Listen to IDKs, even the devil smiles.

It's a fantastic project. But we're here to talk about Casino today. It's been five years since the Melodic Blue, which is kind of its own. We're going to talk about the lead-up and the hype coming into both of these albums. They're both, I think, highly anticipated albums, but for different reasons. And Keams was mostly because of just how absent he has been since the Melodic Blue. Of course, he showed up on Mr. Morale was on the Mr. Morale tour. But from what I understand, he was ready to drop this project even earlier.

this year, but his grandmother passed sometime, I think, last year, so that delayed the project, understandably so. But we did get a very clean rollout, something I wanted to talk about with you, was like, you know, between the fall off and this album, there was kind of the tale of two rollouts where this was, baby Keams was very PG-Lang in terms of, like, let the art do the talking. It was a clean two-week rollout with a three-part documentary series that was on YouTube, but I thought was very powerful and really cool. He did a live show premiere the night of the album's release where he kind of rap some songs, played some songs,

had a really cool like sandbox visual thing going on, tying into the childhood theme of the album I thought was really cool. But for the most part, he kind of just let the music and the art do the talking, which is what I prefer. But there also was this five-year shadow kind of looming over this album, which kind of came with its own expectation.

Does that sound right to you, Charles? Definitely. I mean, first, with the rollout, I appreciate PG-Lang respecting my time. I am done with rappers teasing that they're going to drop a project for like literally I won't name who, but there are rappers out there who like, all right, eight months to go till my mixtape. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Just fucking drop it when it's ready.

And it's like when you asked me to be on this episode, I had even forgotten. that the Keem record was like upon us this week, or last week, which I appreciated. I actually thought, usually I think documentaries are very annoying when rappers or pop stars or whatever do the documentary before the rollout. But I actually think this one helped me situate the project in terms of baby Keem's career and what he was trying to achieve. Because to your point, I think there was a lot of. of after the melodic blue, I almost think the melodic blue did probably more than they thought it would.

Yeah. And I think it kind of intensified how much people wanted from Keem and the moment that people wanted so much from him, he got of like the avatar disappeared. Yeah. And we haven't talked about obviously the Kendrick connection with, I think also comes with the own expectations and hype and anticipation where it is. I mean, PG-Lang, it's hard to know if, uh, what is the other guy's name, Tana Leon, or I'm blanking on his name right now. I don't even know if that he's on PG Lang still. Like he hasn't put out anything and there's kind of online rumors that maybe he's not on PG Lang.

I'm not exactly sure. But yeah, I mean, even when I saw the track list at 11 songs 37 minutes, it's like you haven't released any music in five years. And now it's, so that comes with its own pressure. And then 11 songs, I mean, just in general, that's putting a lot of pressure on. each song to be very, very good. But as far as respecting our time, I really appreciate a concise album, especially these days. And so I guess we can just jump into the album itself.

I'll just open the floor to you. Maybe describe your Keem journey because you were famously not so much a fan of Keem in the early days, but have kind of in recent years converted to a baby Keem fan. So I guess like, curious, lay out that for the listeners, but also like what about Keem eventually won you over? I think, you know, besides me being full of some piss and vinegar in my younger years and just being a hater. You have softened over the years. I have. I think it's... I would like to take some credit for that music, too. I also think the move to L.A. it really just kind of like, when you're, you wake up warm and the sun is shining and just like, hey, you know, I can listen.

to a little kem. I'd listen to a little too phone, you know what I mean? But I think in the beginning, I don't think I was in a camp that was that unfamiliar to a lot of people, which is like, who is baby Keem? I was still very connected to the music industry and writing about music. And you had heard rumors that he is related to Kendrick in some way. So already my nepo baby radar went off, which I don't think is fair. I think. I think, even that whole type of like, I think this was also a round of time where nepotism in a lot of areas,

whether it was in movies, TV, who gets what was starting to bubble up. So already I was a little bit like, I don't know if I could trust this. And I think that first project that he dropped I for my bitch, right? Yeah. It was a record that like I had to go back to

and appreciate because it's so young. It's so child. in the best way possible. But it's like, it's, Keem is almost like a little jester, and I just didn't get the joke at the time. And then with Melodic Blue,

I was like, okay, the beats are more epic and they're bigger, and Kendrick is standing next to him more prominently. And once again, I was like, I don't know if I could trust this.

And then I think what ended up happening is I realized how to position Keem, which is the thing that I think excites Kendrick about Keem is like this is a kid with a lot of ideas, you know. He almost, it's hard for me to judge Keem as an album artist because I don't know if he's been able to deliver a project that from front to back makes sense to me as like an album with a, with the central narrative and theme or whatever. But every single time I listen to his projects, I'm like, oh, you are a producer in the sense that you can sell me on an idea. It might be corny. It might be off the

while it might be like a production technique or you having little voices, but I always am just kind of won over by how willing he is to go there for his ideas. Am I making any sense? No, that makes perfect sense. And I agree with you about like, I don't want to say this the wrong way. Your point about him not being an album artist, quote unquote, in the traditional sense, because all of his projects, you know, Melodic Blue and especially this one, like, the sound is varied.

that's kind of his sound. Like, we think of, like, the epic horns and, like, the Cardo style production where, you know, he does his high-pitched voice with the triplet flow. Yeah. And I think, like, if you had to pinpoint, like, what you would think of when you think of baby Keem and it was one stylist, you know, you were forced to choose one style, it would probably be that one. There's only, like, you know, even on this project, there's only, like, three or four

songs like that on this project. And if you go back to Melodgy Blue, you really, even though those songs loom large, like family ties of course range range brothers um you know block blue is incredibly varied too and i think he does have a gift for stylistic variation in the same way a lot of people from his generation i think of dochey doing the same way differently but in terms of like being able to i don't cause play is probably the wrong word but kind of fit in and all these different different styles i think is a strength you know i don't listen to this project or melodic blue i think this this project feels more cohesive even and then the melodic blue to me.

But I don't listen to it and think it doesn't feel all over the place to me. There's one song near the end we're going to talk about that I think is stylistically the most left, but it's one of my favorite songs on the project. So even if it does feel a little bit out of pocket of the album, like if the song's good enough, that's really what it comes down to. And so for me, I kind of, I enjoy that about him. I enjoy the variety because he does do, he does execute on it so well. most of the time.

This, you know, there is a central, I would say, theme. I don't think this is a concept album, but I do,

obviously that the, the centering of his childhood is up front. That is accentuated by the documentary, of course, and I think that set the stage for the more introspection

side of the album. And, you know, it's framed in that way. So the album is bookended by no security and no blame. Obviously, there's a connection in the title and both of those are the most

introspective tracks. And then we get I am not a lyricist right in the middle. So it is kind of like framed or architect around this exploring his childhood, his trauma, his background, and just kind of making sense of his upbringing and also the death of his

grandmother. But interspersed with that is like, you know, a lot of songs, just like love songs or fun kind of goofy songs about sex, you know. And so I don't know, yeah, Which version of Baby Keem do you kind of gravitate more?

Do you feel like the album was all over the place? Or do you share my opinion in terms of like it still sounds somewhat cohesive despite all the variety? I don't know if the album has as many highs as the melodic blue in terms of like I don't know if the album ever gets to arrange brothers or family ties type level.

But to your point, I think it is far more cohesive because in the past, what I would say, Keem's, where Keem, I would situate him is when, I like when he is being a little bit more comical. I like when,

even when the song is epic and big, there is just a level of this kid is trying new flows, trying new ideas, and I think where he's always struggled is what is the narrative core. And throughout all of his projects,

from, die for my bitch, to melodic blue, to this. I think he's always been trying to figure out how do I rap about my upbringing and my narrative. I think one thing that Kendrick can always rely on is that we know L.A. We know what L.A. needs to hip hop. We have a visual reference for it. Kendrick comes from a lineage of Pock and Dre and NWA and Snoop.

So he gets to play with something that we're more familiar with. And I think what the documentary tried to do is, and what he, Keene's been trying to do his whole career. It's like, how do you situate Vegas? You know? And it was funny. I think Casino was a step in the right direction of him trying to basically tell a story about this version of the family or this pocket. There was a moment in the documentary where Kendrick is basically like, no, like, why do you think we call ourselves the hillbillies? And a lot of the music in this isn't just situating, you know, his mom and her. struggles with addiction and raising him.

It's also situating what a place like Vegas is and what it means and how it can between all the drugs and the alcohol and gambling. He's trying to kind of situate what did that do to my family? What has that done to my music? How did that help raise me? How did that help define me? I don't know if he succeeds in all of the ways. but it's interesting.

Like it's actually, I think it's far more ambitious if you give it the time. I think so. I agree. And I think part of being so close to Kendrick and the popular consciousness is that maybe our expectations

of the conceptual side of Kiem are too high just because he is standing so close to Kendrick that we think Kendrick is going to infuse that in him or teach him how to do that. We don't know if Kemp is necessarily interested in making narrative concept,

highly complex albums. I don't, doesn't sound like he is. I think it feels like him addressing his childhood was something that he always planned on doing, even in the melodic blue, I forget you with song, but he alludes to his childhood, but says, you know, but that's for the next project.

You know, so it seems like he'd been working towards this concept for, for many years. It was originally titled Child with Wolves, I believe. And so I think we kind of expected this is where he was going to go with it. Does it land, like in the moment when I'm listening to the intro or the outro or even songs, parts of I'm not a lyricist or even Highway 95 freestyle, you know, the imagery and the emotions that he's revealing are really impactful. I'm not sure they necessarily add up in a way narratively or conceptually where it lands in any one place, aside from it feels like the last,

is him kind of the kind of classic adulthood thing where you start to see your mother as a human being and not and kind of removing some of the expectations that you have on her as a mother. And it feels like that's the moment of catharsis is that last that last song. But I don't I don't necessarily think there's an art to the journey that gets us there where that song is, you know, like a Kendrick where, you know, like a Kendrick where, you. you know, everything that comes through for it kind of leads to this moment and it's so impactful, not only because the song is good, but everything has been leading to this moment narratively. I don't think it quite lands in that same way. Well, I was going to ask, because Kendrick said something that was interesting where in the documentary, he's like, yo, I have so many homies that rap, cousins, friends, whatever.

He was like at 14 or 15. Baby Keem already was the most talented just on the production side. And one thing that I thought was very, very interesting is that what he was talking about what impressed him about Keem. He was not necessarily talking about lyrics, which is like what you think. And I'm like, yo, how many of Kendrick's friends or cousins or whatever try to out lyric him or try to out story structure this and that? And everything he's talking about with Keem is like, yo, he had such an ear for melody.

He had such an ear for just like what would work in the song. advance in this ways. And like when I listen to this album, that's actually the things that I like about it where I, to your point, I'm like, I'm actually not holding Kim to the Kendrick's stature because I don't even think that's what his art is trying to do.

Like I've seen a lot of people be like, good flirts, isn't as good as just like some of the other like Kendrick and Keem stuff. And when I listen to that record, I'm like, you know, actually I think this record, is interesting because I've seen Kendrick and Kim do the epic swing before.

Them being silly on kind of just like a record for, sorry to say, like, the girl, whatever. I'm like, I think her name is Momo Boyd. To me, her hook on that is flawless. Just like, when I listen to that, I'm like, this is so fun. The kiss in all your booty. I'm like, all right, Kendrick is how much.

having fun. There is a level where I'm listening to the record. I'm just like, hey, yo. I can fuck with this. Did you hate good flirts? Is that the thing with Keem and Kendrick that you don't like? I love goofy Kendrick. When I first heard it, I was like, oh, that's interesting, because you are kind of, you know, are they going to do family ties part two? And of course, they don't. And that's probably the best, you know, a smart move. Because that's, at this point, I think that would just feel a little bit formulaic. And so I like that they took the collaborations on this album in a different direction. I think that that song was my least favorite when I was listening to the first couple times.

And now it's grown on me. And it's one of my favorite songs on the record. Kissing on your booty. That's what I love about their chemistry with hillbillies. But even on like family ties and range brothers with, you know, the goofy voices, like it feels like as much as Kendrick is giving to Keem, I have always thought that Keem is equally giving to Kendrick. I don't know if that's a direct, if it's indirect or direct in terms of Keem,

I think it might just be being in the presence of youth, and it sounds like they kind of have a goofy relationship. I love how that translates, has always translated in the music with them together. And so I did think the collaborations worked for me. And to your point, I think I do like Keem's melody, more melodic songs, more than the more hype songs at this point.

I think he has a real talent for melody. He's not the best singer, like technically, but his ear for melody and the way he's able to change his voice and kind of shape shift to wherever the song needs to go, for the most part is really, really strong. I think, like, my favorite song, probably right now is Birds and the Bees. Really? I love that song.

I absolutely love that song. Wow. You don't like that song? I'm not a fan. Oh my God. I'm not a fan. I thought you, okay. See, this is why I like talking to you because every time I think I have a sense of your music taste, you always surprise me.

Before we go to Birds and the Bees, I have to, I want to, because before we get off Kendrick, because I want to save the rest of Keeam, I have to pitch you on something. Oh, okay. I have two questions. Okay. And I don't know if you prepared. First, is my take that Keem is Kendrick's best collaborator. being prisoner of the moment. Now, I would say people would be like,

well, what about schoolboy? What about Cizza? What about, I'm not talking about producers. I'm not talking about people who are featured alongside him. Because at this point, I think, I don't know if I've heard a bad Kendrick Keem record. I would honestly say that, like, in a short amount of time,

I prefer him to almost any other rapper he's been next to. Am I bugging? I don't think so. and maybe it's just because he hasn't hasn't as consistently collaborated with anyone else aside from Keem but I'm trying to think of yeah

I mean the obvious go-to would be some of the TD guys I think he does have good chemistry with like schoolboy specifically but I I appreciate that it seems like every time

Kendrick and Keem collaborate there's a specific aura that they tap into and it is comical kind of it's just it's just not as serious as Kendrick usually is and we don't get those moments from Ken I guess we're getting more of those moments recently but traditionally we haven't got those kind of moments from him it's Dr. Drane slim shady a little bit where it's like even I thought of Eminem on this project a lot in terms of just like how central the maternal aspect of it is but I bring up Dr. Dr. Dray and Eminem because to your point Eminem would bring out the fun in Drey Like it's like when they would, it would always kind of be a moment when they were on record together or they would produce. And like that's kind of that relationship. But I also want to pitch you on something really quick. Here are my Keem and Kendrick collaborations ranked. Okay. Okay. I want you to, I want you to see if like if I'm bugging. I think coming in at number six, good flirts. Number five. Number five is house money. You like house money more than good flirt? Yes. I think house money is great. I think house money is great. It is, it is. It is. so fucking epic. I love

house money. Okay. Number four, Savior. Think Savior is a great song. It's not my favorite version of Keem and Kendrick, but I love Savior. Number three, Range Brothers.

Number two, the hellbillies. Number one, family ties. I think that's a fair. That's a fair. I mean, maybe... Where would your list be? Same top three, for sure. Oh, Hillbillies are the Range Brothers. I thought you would be like, really, bro?

But Hillbillies is good. Hillbillies is, I want a whole album like that. Give me the Hillbillies album. How fun would that be? How fun would that be? The whole messy in Namar, I love that. I love that.

Yeah, no big discrepancy. I mean, I might have, I might have, I mean, House Spunny is great, but it feels like walking in the party. I love that. Wait,

I thought you would have saved her. I thought you would have Xavier in the top three. Well, that one, I mean, that feels less like a collaboration, more so Keem featured on a Kendrick song. That makes sense. Where the other songs, I think every other song you listed feel more like collaborative, like true collaboration, you know? So that's, that, so in terms of collaborative,

I probably have Xavier near the top of this list as a song on its own, but as collaborations, I think your list is about right. No major pushback. So if we're if we're going to pivot into not negative like territory, but kind of like, oh, this is what trips me up about the album. I think two records in specific. I'm just like, I think these are good records on their own, but totally derail the project. The first, let me let me get it up really quick. All right.

Sex Appeal with Too Short, Dramatic Girl with Chey Crewe. Songs I like in a vacuum. but I'm like, get them the fuck off this album. Like they derail it. I feel like they derail it. Okay. Dramatic girl tonally,

I get, that's the one song you might point to and be like, yeah, this feels out of place. However, I fucking love that song. That is one of my favorite songs on the album. I thought you would love it too.

It's like classic like indie pop. Like, I don't know. It reminded me of like MGMT or like the early 2000 or like the mid-2000s. I don't know. I love. record like this on every out. Like,

I know he does. On die for my bitch, it's the what's the what my ex. Okay, yeah. Like that type of, to your point, indie pop almost keen being like, well, what if I was just fucking Rivers Kumo for a

and you're just like, no, go shit out of here. And I like Shayah crew. I've, I like Shayah crew. I've listened to a lot of Shia Crew. I think he's very talented. I think that this is like the type of record that you just, Lucy, in the summer. or just put it off. Don't attention to a project.

That's a good point. Maybe that's the better move. I thought you would like this song. I'm a little disappointed. But like I'm in one, like when I'm listening to Highway 95 or casino or all these other records and then that one comes on, dramatic girl, I'm like, all right, keen, bro. Like, you know. And say it to me a two short record.

I actually like that record in a vacuum. I think it makes narrative sense within the. flow of the album, but I gotta be real. Like, Too Short is kind of fine on it. I love Too Short. Two Short's G. But it feels more so like a flex, like we got too short on the record versus maybe using him to the fullest of his capabilities. Am I being in? Well, I love the beat for Sex Appeal. Absolutely love the beat. I actually would, I think I would have preferred it as a two short song that featured Baby Keem. Because for me, Baby Keem's vocals on that track, for me, don't really land. And when I went, especially when you're side by side with Too short, who's just,

this is his kind of production. And so I thought Too Short kind of stole the show on, on the, on the, song, but it's, I like the beat more than the song. And I'm kind of indifferent about it as a whole on the project, I guess. It'd probably be near the bottom of my rankings. But this is, I mean, this is kind of the pressure that you put on yourself for 11 song project, where every song kind of has to hit. And I think he does that for the most part. It feels overall, it just feels really like a solid project. But I think if we're talking negatives about it, I think what you said earlier is probably my biggest critique of it, which is it doesn't necessarily hit the highs of a melodic blue. But I do think it's a better overall record than melodic blue, if that makes sense.

We are in the same, we are in the same place. I just do want to be like, I like this record, though. And that's the thing where it's like, I think maybe the disappointment, if we're going to be honest, is that to me, this record would have gone over well if there wasn't such a gap in terms of when it was released. And I think this is partially Kendrick and Keem's fault in terms of like over delivering.

Because I think in a very short time, Kim became an artist that if you would have told me that he would have made this big of a jump as a rapper in a production, after die my bitch to melodic blue to this. I'm like, oh, there's something special about him. Yeah. When you make people wait this long, I think they come to the record with expectations that are almost unfair.

I think weirdly it kind of matches up to me with Jay Cole, where it's just like, or Jay Cole, that album to me struggles with the weight placed upon it because he's been touting it for so long. Casino is in a similar way. but instead of overstuffing the album like Cole did, Kim almost understuffs it. And it's just like, you know what? I would rather give you something short,

directing to the point. And it's better you guys want, leaving y'all wanting more than being like, damn, I got, I got another hour of this record. Yeah. No, yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, I think I'm 100% in agreement there.

It would, yeah. It's the thing where it's like you're, you're just kind of like averaging it out where it's like there's a lot of like eights on this album but I don't think there's a nine or a 10 where I think like blue had nines and tens you know but maybe less a little more filler yeah but yeah I do think yeah it's interesting because you know PG Lang is definitely so far kind of following the model of TDE less is more each each project being impactful not a lot of filler not a lot of singles in between projects and not every artist can like survive that cadence

You know, we've seen artists from TDE leave TDE because, you know, they couldn't kind of, either they, them as an artist were just art made for that type of release cadence. I don't think it works for everyone. And it also puts a lot of pressure on each project because if you go away for three, four, five years and then you're, you release something that's kind of lackless or just kind of average. I mean, then you're just kind of, now it's an uphill battle just to stay relevant. And I think Keem did enough. I think we're all very still very excited about Keem.

I'm looking forward to whatever he gives us next. I do hope the release cadence is a little bit quicker. But let me, maybe I don't think we talked about some of the songs enough. So let's go back into... I want to talk to you about my favorite songs.

Yeah, we didn't do favorite songs yet. So I'm curious to know yours. So I, weirdly, it's not my favorite Keem Mo. but I think no security and no blame front back of the record really good

actually. Like that to me I was just like oh even if like I know there's the I am not a lyricist song but like there were moments where I'm just like even if technically Keme is not the most intricate rapper

the way he told the story of his past couple years growing up in Vegas trouble with his mom and almost he does a very very good job at key points in this record painting the chaos of his childhood life and constantly like what his grandmother meant to him his grandmother getting arrested his mother leaving almost in this project i've learned more about keem on like on the like on no security and no blame highway 95 casino those type of records then I learned in his entire career up to that point.

And that is difficult. Yeah. Yeah. And to be this vulnerable with some of the subject matter, you know, I always appreciate that. It's not, I imagine it's not hard or it's not easy to put together songs like that,

especially that last song, man, it's like there's moments that are just tearjerkers in terms of that. Some of the, because he's very good at like imagery. So he'll give you like an image of him walking barefoot in the cold outside at night. Yeah.

You're like, you're seven years old, why you, why you're outside at night and running the streets of Las Vegas in the cold. Does you think he sounds like three stacks on I am not a lyricist? I saw a lot of people being like, yo, he sounds like Andre. And I get it. But I was a little bit like, all right, guys, relax. It seemed a little overblown.

I just think that that kind of stuff to me is just like, it's the nature of everyone feeling that they have to have an opinion like two minutes after the album comes out where it's like, let me just throw a big name in my tweet so that it gets a little traction. And that's what it felt like a little bit to me. I think the comparison is valid in terms of like, yeah, I can hear that. I definitely, that feels like an inspiration. I heard like, if you're familiar off of Section 80, Porman's Dreams and JLC's thing at the end, there are some similarities there in terms of like that half wrapped, half spoken kind of flowed. thing that he did.

But it wasn't to the point where I was like, this is Andre 3000 cosplay. Like it didn't take me out of the song at all, which I think is the marker for me of like, is the influence too much? It's too much if I'm only thinking about Andre 3000 and not really listening to you because the similarity is just that overt. You know what I mean?

And so it didn't bother me. But again, I see the similarity. But that to me is one of the stronger songs on that project. I wouldn't say it's in my like, top rankings because I'm more drawn to like birds and the bees. I like good flirts now a lot. House money is fantastic.

Give me your top three or five right now. Top three or five. Let me pull the track list. I mean, I'm trying to think of the one like, it's kind of the thing where it's like, which one do I want to listen to and which one do I appreciate the most? It's kind of like the birds don't sing conversation with the clips album

where it's like birds don't sing a fantastic song. It means so much. It's not the song I'm going to listen to. every time I put the project on. But I can, that to me is like a no security or no blame. I'm not going to probably listen to those songs every single time because I just want to, you know, maybe I just want to have fun or have an easier listen. But I would put no security and no blame pretty high.

Like I said, dramatic girl. I might be alone in this. People hit me up on social media or leave a comment on this episode. This is crazy. I don't know how this song. I haven't really heard seen that much on it, like people's reactions to it. I'm very curious if it works. people or if I'm just alone.

Dramatic is not the one. And it's just a thing. Like I said, I know by the end of the year, you're gonna, I'm gonna be like, yo, you were right, cold,

Dramatic girl is actually a bop. But on this record, no, we gotta be, now, circus, circus freestyle, I'll fucking win it.

Is that the one way to the, like, like, I fuck circus, circus, I love that part. It's by my favorite parts on the album. I'm a cave,

man. What, all right, let me, let me consult my, my notes about some of my other, Oh, Highway 95, speeding down the highway.

Yeah. Got a rock. Okay, that's like a perfect example of like, that is a flow only baby Keem comes up with. Like it's so new. You've never really heard it. It's so catchy and infectious. But then like the twist of that song is like,

it sounds sing-songy because of the flow, but like some of that has some of the most like the harrowing imagery on the entire project. If you have to listen to what you're saying. So you like Highway 95 part two. Like I was like, that's one of the ones that grew on me. at first.

Like when I first listened to I was like, all right, it's whatever. And then to your point, I would play and listen to the lyrics. I was like, oh shit, you get some shit off game. Yeah, but it's interesting. I'd be interested to see like which songs like, you know, organically, especially what you can tell on streaming, like which songs are kind of, because there was no single before this project.

Like, I guess they just released a, right before we recorded this, they just released a video for Birds and the Bees. So that sounds like it's going to be the first single. But I'm actually really interested to see which songs organically take off as quote unquote singles. Because to me, to my ears, aside from the good flirts and the Kendrick feature, which is always just going to come with its own, you know, over indexing in terms of streams. Yeah.

It doesn't really seem to be like obvious singles to me. Am I wrong in that? Like there's not one that's really like everyone's talking about this song is so good. It's the tan on the album. I think I think you're right. I would put money that it's going to be either good flirts or house money just because of the Kendrick. of it all. But weirdly, and I know

as much as I'm being a hater, dramatic girl, probably the reason I don't like it as much, is like that to me is some shit that would like soundtrack like an Instagram reel or a fucking TikTok. Like I could see, like, if they serve it to some influencers, because it just does have that kind of bounce to it where it's like, oh, we went to Japan. Oh, dramatic girl.

And just like, oh, fucking kill me. Because you can see it now that I said it. You could see it soundtracking a bunch of fucking TikTok, like a TikTok trend. I can see it. I'm here for it too. Maybe I'll join in. But honestly, house money is that might go in concert. Oh, yeah.

I could see. And that's also the thing that I think Kim is very good at. Even if I don't necessarily, I think he puts together good albums, even though I don't think he's an album artist. But I do think in a very sneaky way. way he probably has one of the best set lists of a young rapper in terms of just like there are even songs on this project where I'm like actually it's a very smart thing for him to do to be like I don't need to try to out epic range brothers or family ties actually I need some like more love songs and he's very good on each project being like same thing with the hillbillies he's just

like actually I need a silly song here actually I mean and I think now. even when I was watching the live stream, I'm like, oh, you're a good performer where I mean this in the best way possible. It is not a diss. Because a lot of you would be like, oh, he reminds, maybe he almost reminds me of a Travis Scott at this point. Yeah. No, I see that. Where I think he has a little bit more, a lot more depth than Travis Scott, to be honest. But he has what Scott had, which was an ability to think of his musicalistically and think about. it from like how does it sound on the album how is it going to sound in the music video how is it going to sound on stage and that's actually what i think this project was very good at is it almost this is going to sound very bad it almost kind of filled some gaps in his career where i'm like you almost have to prove to us you could be a little bit more introspective you have to prove to us like my favorite keem bars are the damn y'all y'all y'all fucking on this oh shit nah i got this new model she crazy y'all like that is baby keem but

But sometimes I'm like, all right, Kim, we get it. You fuck the baddest women. And you make the most money. Can you say something, Ali? Can you give us a little something? What's the song where he says? I hate a curious bitch. That's whatever he says.

What was that? Baby Kim just humbled a model. Not a fake one. A real one. Don't start. Like, that is my... But he had so many of those records that I think he's probably like, dog, I'm about to be like, you know, probably what?

he baby keams like in his 20s now mid i think he's i looked at that i think he's either 20 i think he's 25 around there hitter i could see him being like all right man i can't sound like a fucking muppet from fragil rock for my entire career let me get like no security no blame uh seem like like i am not a lyricist seem like those records that you need in the set list where it's like all right y'all like right i can rap yeah yeah no he does yeah i mean i think again made full circle in the conversation. I think a strong suit is being able to do all these stylistic variations very well and very convincingly. And now we've added introspective Keem to the list of characters he could play.

But yeah, I got tickets to the show in Oakland. So I'm very excited to go to that. I imagine it's going to be very good because I could see a song like casino, which I like casino. I like the second half of casino better than the first half. But I could see that song just absolutely. going nuts live. And so, yeah, I don't know. Anything else you want to talk about as we transition

to the fall off? No, I think people, hopefully people are surprised. You're just like, damn, Charles was very positive on the Kemp. Here's the thing. I like the Keme record a lot. I think my closing thoughts on it, I don't know.

I think the big struggle it will have is whether the Keme record can stay in my rotation for the entire year. Or, And I think the thing that I will say about Keem is I'm like, I take songs off his projects where it's like with the clips record, I would just play the whole clips record. I would just like let it ride. G&X, I would just let G&X ride.

Like I would listen to songs here and there. And I don't know if Keem has, and I think that's his next kind of like benchmark. Can you make an album where I want to listen to it back to front versus, hey, I like this record. Grab a song. Yeah. It does feel, and maybe that has to do with the stylistic variation. It does feel like an album you can grab songs on a playlist very easily from. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. Hopefully we're too negative in the podcast because I do really enjoy the album. I just think it's a, I think the staying power is, you know, we're recording this on Monday. The album just came on on Friday. So this is all just first impressions. But I do think your point is valid about is it, how sticky is it going to be? But also, if we're being positive, I applaud Keen for making something interesting. I think, like, even if every choice doesn't work on the record, the reason why I'm, like, to me, I'm being actually very positive about it is I'm just like, baby Keem did the thing that, like, I searched for in Baby Keem.

He does this thing that, like, I search for in most artists, where he made something weird, and he made songs that I love, and he made songs I didn't like, and he swung for the fences. and even sometimes when he whiffed, I'm still like, oh, at least he's an artist and a rapper trying to do that versus like,

he easily could have just like given us a bunch of fucking range brothers again. And I'd be like, oh, cool, a cool team. And I think I applaud him for like almost doing the opposite.

I agree. I 100%. And I think maybe that's a good segue into the next album that we're going to talk about because we're on casino there doesn't, even if the song's not my favorite,

there's something interesting about every song on this project. Like genuinely, I think that's true. Whether it's production, you know, something that's a little off kilter that you never heard before or his cadence or his flow or his voice. It feels like every song is justified to be on this project in some shape, way or form. And I don't know if I could say the same thing about the falloff, which we are going to talk about right after this quick break. All right. We are back to discuss Jay Cole's The Falloff released on February 6-26. Shout out to 26.

It is a double-disc, 24 songs, one hour and 41 minutes. So exactly over one hour longer than Casino. It is famously a double album concept. Disc 29, the first disc is Jay Cole returning to his hometown after the release of 2015 Forest Hill Drive when it was 29. disc two is disc 39 current day J. Cole returning to his hometown, reflecting on his career and his come up. This is famously his last

J. Cole project, I think, I guess that's the theory, although there's a recent interview saying that he's not done with music, but he's done with the J. Cole character. I'm not exactly sure what that means. But here we are, a few weeks after the falloff, here to talk about it with Charles Holmes. I want to challenge us, I think so we didn't talk about the Keem album before we jumped on today.

Me and you have been texting about the fall off for a couple of weeks. I think we're on the same page about our feelings about it. This is not going to be a podcast that shames J. Cole fans. No. But it is going to be an honest assessment of this album that had a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of expectations coming into it. So I want to start with the positives if we can, Charles. Wait, if we, before we even start with the positives,

can I give you my overarching, just, thoughts, impressions, thesis of Jay Cole to set the conversation because I want to have a very nuanced conversation before we, you know, we get critical. Okay, let's do it. I think Jay Cole is a very talented artist and he has been an artist that when I tell you, I have been listening to Jay Cole since his first second mixtape, lights, please, whatever, I've listened to every single project. I think at this point, a lot of the Jay Cole myth and slander, whether it's the no feature shit, whether it's the Jay Cole makes music for motherfuckers who work in a warehouse.

Like all those jokes are just like, it's done. Like it's done. It's cooked. We get it. I think all of the Kendrick, Drake beef shit, cooked. With that all being said, I think the problem with J. Cole and everything that is going to inform how I talk about this project and talk about his career is I think that J. Cole thinks his origin story is way more interesting than it actually is. And I think in the beginning of his career,

unfortunately, he painted himself into a corner where he took a cliche. And I don't want to be harsh, but his two loves are basketball and hip hop. And he took a cliche of like, I'm going to paint my entire career within this box of a JV athlete who wants to go varsity, who wants to make the NBA, but he's put on the bench because nobody knows how talented he is and all of my records, whether it's the fall off, the come up, the whatever you want to call it, I think Hemetman. And I don't want to linger on that too long. But the more and more I listen to this project, I'm like, yo, you're 39. still rapping about what if you never made it.

And that is just a very, very, very, very, very hard thing to make interesting to me. Am I being too cruel up top? Maybe up top because I want to start positive, Charles. Sorry, I thought, I'm trying to be measured. I'm trying to be measured and have a nuance J. Cole conversation. It is, okay, it is, but it does, maybe I'm going to waste this take too early, but it is the thing that I, that underlines what, with the falloff as kind of once or for all solidified in my mind,

that J. Cole just doesn't have anything interesting to say conceptually or like, his focus on his life and that narrative that you just laid out seems like to be his only thing that he kind of falls back on. And what I've always wanted from J. Cole, what I was hoping to get with this project was him saying something more than that, I guess. and when you have conceptual projects and you kind of rap about yourself in a certain way, I am going to place certain expectations on you and what you have to say. And I think he has continually fell short in having something interesting to say. That doesn't mean I don't think he makes good music.

That doesn't mean I don't think he's one of the best lyricists that we have or just general. I think his talent as a lyricist and a rapper is just absolutely top tier. My take about J. Cole for years now has been, I love J. Cole a la carte. I love him when someone else picks the beat. I love him not coming up with the hook. I love him just rapping. And usually on a feature, that's one verse or even like a song like The Fall Off is inevitable off in this project. That is my favorite song on the project.

and it's no coincidence that there's not a hook on it, that the production's pretty good, and that he's just doing what he does best, which is just rapping, you know, wordplay, rhyme schemes, flows, just showing off that technical ability. And it's funny that song, conceptually is very interesting in terms of like,

telling his life story backwards, except for the fact that it's, you know, a nod to gnaws who kind of did the same thing before. And I feel like there's a lot of that conceptual stuff where it's like he's kind of drafting off of concepts that we've already heard before. And it kind of takes the magic. You know, there's a famous saying for magicians

that you don't do the same trick twice in front of the same people. And I feel like a lot of these songs, whether it's what if, whether it's the fall off as inevitable, I used to love her, um, kind of are drafting off of these concepts that we've heard before.

Like, yeah, doing very, doing very good, good with the concepts like objectively I think he executes them very well except for the fact that we

there's there's something to compare it so the innovation that that like oh shit he just did that and we're all kind of realizing it at once like oh he did that he did that that part of it is just kind of never there for me and so to your point I guess

I wanted to start positive Charles we are I think because I think but you're locating something that I think is important which is like I think Kendrick and Jay Cole are similar in this way, where to me, they are almost the first, I don't want to say first generation, but I will say for the purposes of the analogy, the first generation that are hyper fans of hip hop in a way where it's like they have the internet, hip hop history is now becoming a thing. There's been enough music where it's like you can tell that Kendrick and Cole look up to Pock. Biggie, Nas, Jay, cannabis, da-da-da-da-da, whoever, like, in these very, very, very interesting ways,

but in ways that sometimes can make it so that their music almost feels like cosplay, where it is like you are in real time watching hip-hop become IP, where it is like I think Jay Cole does this a lot, which is, to your point, he takes a song that's already popular, or he takes a motif or a song. structure and he's like well, Nas did it this way. I'm going to do it the Jay Cole way.

And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Come up with your own thing. And what I think is interesting, I think this record is at its best when almost Jay Cole stops trying to cosplay as other people. And he just tries to be Jay Cole.

And sometimes I'm like, when the record gets away from him, I'm a little bit like, hey, yo, motherfucker. Why are you, why are you trying to convince me that like I don't know you had a rough life because your mom was white and people don't respect I just like I don't come on call sorry wait all right where should we start you know what

here's where I want to start this one just two which is do you think that this project works well as two discs because like I know there it's hemmed in by a narrative but I just found it to be very, very thin. Okay, so if we're only a couple weeks outside of the project,

so there could be stuff that I'm missing here. I'll 100% start with saying that. Although I would say I'm pretty good about this stuff. The concept didn't, has not landed for me yet. And it's,

and it kind of piggybacks off of what I already said, where it's like, if you're going to do, if you're going to take 24 songs and an hour and 41 minutes, that is conceptual in nature it's like you're being very up front about

this concept you have been teasing this project for five years or however long you called it a reasonable doubt you know you compare it to reasonable doubt I forgot exactly what verse he said that in but it's like you're placing you know part of this part of this album was him

placing these expectations on the album on himself in order to produce his best work like he's done this now for the last 10 years where he's kind of gamifying his career to push himself, which I actually really, like, I really admire that about him. He does seem to be someone that is striving to be better always all the time, really honing in on his craft and really paying reverence to hip hop. You can, you know, you can tell he generally has a deep love for this art form, and I think he represents it very well. It's all that's true,

but if you're going to, if we're all this buildup to this album, it's laid out like a concept album, by the end of the one hour and 41 minutes, at the end of 24 hours, 24 songs, I should probably feel something. Yeah. I should probably walk away after you do, after a long, epic movie, impressed,

viscerally, feeling something emotionally, intellectually stimulated. And while there's moments of all that throughout the project as a whole, and I think it being so long is a big part of this, is like, it just feels very heavy and not in the emotional sense.

It just feels like that was a lot of music. There are some slight highs, a lot of lackluster, like just kind of middle tier songs that I think could have easily just been removed from the project. And I just, whether it's a cohesion thing, whether it's a duration thing, there's just something about the project where by the time I get to the end of it, I'm glad it's over. And I know that sounds harsh to say, but it's like, that shouldn't actually be the way that I feel after listening to, if you're going to make this album this long, there better be a reason for it. And it feels like the only reason for it was that he did build it up so much and that he did take all this time on it and probably removing some of these songs were probably really hard to do. But it doesn't, like the length doesn't feel justified. The concept to me, as much as I appreciate him conceptualizing it. It didn't, it didn't do much. for me to to enhance the music or my perception of the music. Is the story and the concept interesting?

Because what I kept coming back to is I'm like a lot of J. Cole's music is very much like, all right, rap because it is such a lyric driven genre, always kind of goes back to the origin, the myth. I think the best rappers, Kanye getting like through the wire, Kanye getting into the crash, mouth wired shut college dropout makes good j z fucking slinging fucking drugs fucking kingpin makes it good and rap whatever kentra klamar the good kid mad city i think when you think of all rappers that

origin story tends to be pretty fucking interesting or at least the ones that become icons two pox similar biggie for j cole i'm just like is is you being a kid from feyville north Carolina who moves to New York to become a rapper and then surprise it works out. Is that an interesting origin story? Is that, like, you returning to your hometown? We, like, that's what Drake's Take Care is about. To me, that is what To Pippa Butterfly is about a little bit, which is like, Kendrick going to Africa and then coming back and his mind being, like, this is something that, like,

rappers especially do a lot. I can see it with Take Care. I could see it with Tipa Butterfly. I could see it with those records. with this record. I'm just like, wait, what did you learn, though, about coming back? Like, it's just like, that's not a story. You just became famous and then came back to North Carolina.

I think what would have been interesting about it, and maybe what I think maybe he was going for was like, I do this with like books and film a lot where I'll read the same book, but like 10 years apart where I watch the same movie 10 years apart. And it's almost like a new book because you're 10 years older and 10 years more experience. And like you pick up. on different things or you relate to different characters or some themes or dialogue might speak to you more now than when you're 10 years earlier. And so they can pieces of art or just events

in your life or whatever it is. Like you can use those like to me the concept is actually kind of interesting in that way where it's like here's me at 29, here's me at 39. How am I different now? And why I'm going to use my hometown as the benchmark, the kind of like the consistent piece to like tell that story to make that comparison. It just didn't land to me. Like the concept could be brilliant. You still have to execute on it, right? And I don't think the concept is necessarily quote unquote brilliant.

It does feel interesting enough to make, maybe not an album this long about it. But like, I could see where conceptually he was going with it. But there's been no growth. And I think that's the thing where it's like, if you're going to make a record about who you were at 29 coming back to your hometown, versus who you are at 39.

And this has been pitched as your last album. I should be able to stylistically understand what has made you change. And I think if you take someone like a Drake or a Kendrick, who are his peers, there is a big change in who those rappers were, aesthetically, sonically, whatever. To me, J. Cole still sounds like the rapper he was 10, 15 years ago. And that's not bad. It's just for you to make a concept record that's almost two hours about how much you've grown and changed, but you still sound like the same rapper and the same person. I am a little bit like, this might not be playing to your strengths.

Is that harsh? I think that's a very fair critique, especially in light of this album, which is the capstone of his career. Yeah, I agree. I mean, there's not the trajectory of his musical evolution. I would say musical specifically because that to me is somewhat lackluster. I think where he could be positive and point to where he has really grown is as a lyricist, is as a rhymer as just a technical, someone that has gotten very,

very good at the craft of rhyming words. Whether he has something to say or a lot of things to say that are interesting using those words, not necessarily for me. and that's why he's great as a feature artist because in a feature you don't have to say all that much you can just kind of like wow people and then back out because you know that's your job as a feature artist.

You can also have fun and he doesn't have to be a self-serious. You're just like, oh, you're fun to hang out with when you're just like, to me, J-Cole is almost like the guy who's like great in a cipher, great when you're like just like bullshit and put a beat on. And then the minute where you're like,

it almost he has this thing where he's like, all right, serious. I'm being an artist now where I think like what Kendrick has actually gotten better at in his career is almost taking his hand off the wheel and being like, all right, I'm going to do hellbillies. All right. I'm like, I'm going to be a little bit. Or GNX is a perfect example where he's like, I've done a bunch of concept records. A, yo, it's just time to put my city on. I think J. Cole with his albums has, I'll put you this way. This last time I'll probably bring up Kendrick. Kendrick has fashioned a career where it's like because he's already made his classics,

he can have a little bit of fun. And because Jay Cole is so desperate to count his classics, he still is chasing for that one record that will almost prove that it's like, I'm not the middle child anymore. I deserve to be here. And I'm like, dude, you don't have to prove anything. You've survived. Like, just have fun.

Yeah, I mean, that's what's ironic about this album because one of the things that I've thought about afterwards was like, man, it would be interesting to see what he did next because it's like almost like a morale in that way where it's like in a different way. But, you know, there's, he's placed these expectations on himself, whether the album works for you or not, whatever, you know, but clearly this was something he put a lot of pressure on himself to do. Now that it's out, you know, in the same way that I feel like there is a sense of freedom after Kendrick got the weight of Mr. Morale off his shoulders. I'm actually more interested in that J. Cole than. the one we get on the falloff that is this J-Cole character completing a narrative that he's been telling for however many, however many long years, his career's gone. But, you know what I mean?

Like, it would be fun to hear him on a quote-unquote mixtape that was actually true to the, I know he's done that before, but it's like in the spirit of an actual mixtape where there is a degree of looseness, there is just, you know, maybe the songs are two minutes and he's just rapping, there's no hooks, that kind of project. Like I would, that's the J-Cole I'm kind of interested in hearing now. Honestly, if he's done with the J. Cole project, if I was his homie, if I was his friend, I'm like, I actually think to your point, the evolution of your career is like, hey, yo, maybe don't produce your next project.

Lock in with one producer. I don't care if it's Cardo, conductor, alchemist, whatever. It's the same. Okay, so this, I think it's a good comparison because we've talked about this about M&M before, where it's like, it feels like they're. Career paths are somewhat parallel to me, where it's like, I feel personally, I have so much reverence for Eminem, his respect for the genre, his commitment to the craft, one of the best lyricists, one of the best rappers we have ever seen. Yet, I think the back half of his career, he kind of ran out of things to say, and he never really evolved past his own stylistic preferences. And I think you could probably say the same thing about J. Cole, to me.

know, personally, all the things about positive things I said about Eminem applied directly to Jay Cole and the same things about his catalog, maybe to a lesser degree than Eminem, but I just don't know if he had much to say after a certain point. And I don't know, hopefully that's not sounding too harsh, but it's like, it's, it is ironic that is my favorite project, at least, of his is for your, uh, uh, uh, your eyes only. And that wasn't his story. That was someone else's story that he was telling. But he's a great storyteller. There's, There are songs on this album where the storytelling is absolutely brilliant. He's really good about that three-verse narrative and like making it sound casually,

giving people dialogue and going back and forth and different perspectives. Like all that for him right now is so organic. And you can just tell that it's because of he's dedicated so much time and passion to this craft. It's just the substance to me is just a little bit lacking. And then we didn't talk about it really too much. What songs work for you though? Like, are there songs? Oh, I'll just say, let me just say, like, the production on this album, I struggle with a lot.

It's bad. I just, it's bad. There's just so many, so many songs on here where the production itself, I'm just like, I don't know. It's like, do you think he's doing too much? Do you think Jay Cole, I've always thought this. I don't think Jay Cole is actually a bad producer. I think that it is almost like he's doing too much in terms of just like there's not as much division of labor. where a lot of the, I'll be honest,

a lot of the beats on here, it's just something is missing a little bit. Like there is just, and I don't know, if we look at Casino, Casino is a perfect example of a record where I'm like, this is a very well-produced record.

There is a journey. If there was no one rapping on this beat, I could listen to it and be like, no, this is an interesting piece of artwork on its own. With a lot of Jay Cole's beats, I'm just like, yo, this just kind of sounds like an okay loop that is just not like if you're going to do that type of production the loop has to be fine it like it just literally needs to carry me for minutes and there's

just so many times on this project where i was like the production is not it's not dynamic it is very one note yeah and that's been a critique of mine this entire for his entire career where it's like I am going to compare him to Kendrick because he compares himself. He puts himself on that tier and many ways he is on that tier, you know, or at least right around there. So part of what I wanted to ask you today, maybe we can address it right after this, but it's like, are we too harsh of the critiques on Jay Cole? But just to finish my point of production, yeah, my biggest knack about his production is that it never really goes anywhere. Like Kendrick's songs go somewhere. There's like, even on a song like the one on GNX where he talks about the aliens and the satellites,

um, uh, blanking on the song name now. But it's like, that's a classic example of this like, mostly straightforward beat that then has this really interesting bridge that gets really melodic and synths come in. And it's like, and then it goes back to the original beat.

So it's like there's a journey there, like to your point where it's like on so many of these songs, maybe all of them. Like, the production just never really goes anywhere. So then for me, you're kind of already, it's like an uphill battle. Now the lyricism has to do so much of the work. The flow has to do so much of the work.

And I don't necessarily think of J. Cole as a great hook rider either. So it's just, yeah. That is the thing, though, where it's like, okay, well, if you're going to be the producer of the beat, if I already, you're already on the back foot if I feel like the beat isn't going anywhere, if it's not taking me on a journey. And this is true of all artists. All artists. Yeah.

But I think it is like double when it's like to your point, because he has a limited voice and what I mean, like what he can do. I think Kendrick is a perfect example too where I think Kendrick is not the most technically gifted singer. Like, especially early in his career, it was hard for him to really, like you could tell he understood melody, but it was hard for him to be the one to get it across the line. And what I was. There was a point in Kendrick's career early on that he was, I don't think he was. great at writing hooks. Not at all. But he got better at it.

He learned how to utilize his voice in weird, interesting ways. And with each project, you were like, oh, he has such a command over whether he's on the hook. You could be like, even though he wasn't on the hook, I could tell that Kendrick, as a producer,

knew how he wanted to utilize this person, where it's like, Petey Pablo on this is a perfect example. I love Petey Pablo. That is someone who, like, J. Cole, there is a geographical connection between these two artists. On that song especially, I'm like, why is

Petey Pablo here? Besides you it being built on one of his records, you're not necessarily utilizing him to the best of his ability. I'll say the same thing about Erica Badu on this record. No, I agree with Erica Badu.

I'm like, you got Erica Badu, or you got who else is on the um, Burn a boy. I love Burn a boy. I love future. These are all artists that I love in a vacuum.

But Jaycolle has no chemistry with any of them. Yeah. He's not utilizing, he's not bringing them into his world in a way where it's like, there's something that you can do. And I want to prove to everybody that I am a producer that could bring someone into my realm and almost pitch you on how I view the world, see it and hear it.

Instead, it is like a feature that is tacked on. Sorry, I'm being so harsh. I know. Again, if you, if J. Cole listeners are still listening at this part, I'm so sorry. But we're trying to be honest. Yeah. I mean, it's like, and it's like, I want to like J. Cole. I do like J. Cole.

I like J. Cole in moments, but I would hang out with J. Cole. Like, that's the thing. Like, I think I would have a good time with him. I'm not. Wait, can I be positive? Well, in theory. And, well, I would just. say like in theory he he kind of checks like all the boxes that I would want in an artist it just like

it just might be person this could just be personal opinion but I do like there's a lot of people I respect about their opinion about music that feel the same way as me and I even talk to specifically my friend Brandon who's a pretty big J. Cole fan I asked him about this album and you know as a you know big j cole fan I was very curious to hear what he said and he was very honest and trying to Transparency essentially said it's good, not great, some good songs on it, felt too long, felt like a lot of the concepts are drafting off Kendricks. And this is coming from a, you know, a pretty big J. Cole fan. So I don't think the consensus is that far off to what we've been talking about. I just feel bad because I like the guy. I like what he represents. I think his passion for

hip-hop and getting better. And I think he stands for the right things more or less within the genre. It's just, it just doesn't all add up. It's like a, like a video game character where it's like you know all the rankings are like seven eight lyricism 10

but it's like I still don't want to play with that character I don't know does that make sense it makes perfect sense I would I was wondering

when I was going through the track list yeah is there a good album in here because like one of my favorites it's a my favorite

song off this is lonely at the top which is like a bonus record but it's like I like the beat. I almost like the fact where it's like I know Jay Cole returns to that type

of storytelling a lot, which is like him reflecting. What I like about lonely at the top is like I think it is Jay Cole adding a level of clarity to his story. Middle Child is this way as well where I'm like the best of those

records is him sharing something that I think is very, very human, which is I achieved all my goals. I got to the top, I'm aging, and was the thing that I sacrificed for worth it? To me, that is interesting. I don't think it's interesting as something that you stretch out over an entire career, but what he gets in a circuit, like, lonely at the top is when he gets into a certain pocket where I'm like, oh, no, he even has lines in this that are like, he's talking to the other, he's talking to the J-Coles that are coming up, who are thinking the same thing that

he thought about his heroes, which is like, you're going to lose it. Like, you're not making the same type of music. And even Jay Cole is looking at his heroes being like, dog, if you just let me produce for you, I could create something amazing. I love that type of song. I feel like we've heard, haven't we known this about him for a long time though?

But if that's what he's interested in, and it's like, that's what he's interested in. And we're going to be amazing. Right, right, right. Right. Like that is, that is even, because you like the song,

I personally cannot stand the fall off is inevitable. Oh, that's my, okay, that's my favorite song on the project. Because to me, it's the same as the basketball metaphor. It's the same as like having a song apologizing to gnaz, where it is just like, motherfucker. Like, if I have to hear another rapper rapping in reverse about his life, I'm going to kill myself. Like, we understand. Like, it's like, and I'm not going to shoot Kendrick any bail. I personally don't like the, what is the, I'm going to get the actual, because I listen to it once.

said never again. What if the song about Tupac and Biggie? Absolutely not. Every rapper, enough. Enough. If you did not meet Pock and Biggie in real life, I don't want to hear about it. You know? Like, Drake has the same thing with fucking Alia. Enough.

Like, I can't. Am I being an asshole? No. I mean, that's, that's, I mean, it's a good song to talk about Jay Cullen in this respect, because it's like, that's a cons. I mean, them to apologizing, obviously, is not something we've necessarily heard before.

And it's tied up in his apology to Kendrick and this whole beef. But it's also like reincarnated exists. And that came out last year or a year and a half ago, you know, and it's like, even a tailor-made freestyle exists. And it's like, was this purposefully his stamp on the big epoch thing that has been bubbling up recently in the big three that he considers himself being in? Is this like his contribution to that? his is that is that like a conscious thing or is it just like I don't know and but then but my point

really is it's like those things do exist especially reincarnated are you doing it better because we are going to measure you against the thing that has was came before you if you're going to do the rewind thing we are going to measure it against the original if you're going to do I used to lover we are going to measure it against the original and it's like to me he wasn't it's convincing he tried to like he kind of did this half-hearted impression of Pock, but not as well-executed as Kendrick does on Reincarnated.

And so, like, I don't know, it's just, that song is really convoluted with a lot of the context that comes into it to the point where it's like, and I just don't think that the production's that interesting. I think the storytelling and the rapping is fine, you know, like that's always going to be there for Jay Cole. But, like, again, it's like conceptually, maybe interesting execution didn't really sit,

Well, with me, essentially with the context of everything that happened before the song. And I think because the beef looms so large over this project, there was a level to me where it's like, if I'm being real, your explanation could have been as simple as you being like on record. Hey, yo, look, I knew that shit was going to get nasty. I wanted no parts. My bad. And everybody would have been like, you know what?

You almost 40, nigga. Like, we got you. Like, I would have appreciated it. I'm probably closer than Jay Cole. In terms of like, yo, I feel like spiritually I'm Kendrick, which is like, I'm a burn this whole motherfucker thing to the ground. But sometimes I got a little Jake hold with me. I'm like, yo, let me go watch dishes with my old lady.

I'm not trying to do. Like, I'm not built for it. And it's just like making a song that is Pock and Biggie apologizing to each other is not cool. It is just not. It is like story wise, you're like, no. If I'm making a movie, an epic movie, what sounds better? these friends who came up in the music industry are torn apart by excess and capitalism, or they hugged at the end.

You know what? I'm going to get some of my hot takes off right now. You've never been a hot take it this whole time? Okay. I've been holding on to a lot of these. Okay. The letout is one of the worst songs. Did we survive the let out?

Terrible. All right. The light skin bars on this album are out. control and I say this as a light skin I ask everybody out there I do a PSA on this all the time guys no no just have some respect for yourself okay

like light skins are annoying we are annoying and we just have to take the jokes on the fucking chin but you rapping the hardest nigga on the mic got a white mother terrible you need better friends your friends should have deleted the Pro Tools style you can never get that shit off I'm sorry

I'm sorry following it up with subconscious detecting these niggas think I'm lesser for my complexion before I'm done they all gonna respect the mulatto? No. Jay Cole, no. And I love you and I know it hurts your feelings. When you're on the

playground, I got it. I got the light skin jokes too and it was deserved because I was being annoying but no, absolutely not. You can be ashamed to yourself. Continuing. Why so much of Jay Cole's music he's like obsessed when making songs about how he almost cheated on his wife or he dreams

of cheating on his wife or how much better he is than you because he didn't cheat on his wife. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Jagel. That is not a captive any story. Songs about cheating on your significant other bangers, all the way. Songs about being sorry about cheating on your significant other. Incredible. Songs about you being like, I almost thought about it, but didn't do it. Fuck off. Here's the thing. Why would you compare your marriage to your wife as a life sentence? No, don't do that. That is like, I was listening to this song. If I was married to someone

and they're like, hey, yo, ma, being married to you is like being in jail for all time. I'd be like, no, he wraps. What's the point of being rich if I got to do the dishes? Niga, I don't know. You are rich. That's not an idea. Like, no, I'm not going to feel bad for you.

Sorry, these are the things that I've been holding in. We are too hard on J-C-Rat and we will probably end the conversation circling back there. these were like sorry sorry sorry i had to get all of this oh charles i'm crying that was great am i i i'm an asshole i know i feel like we're both being assholes i really i mean no one that likes j cole's listening now they probably turned it off a long time ago but i like j cole

i like here's the thing and people are going to get mad at me when i say this i like some records like like life sentence i could see it like honestly if there's another rapper like if he sent this to another rapper and it had a little bit of a different groove. But that's something where I'm like, I could fuck with it. Like I said, lonely at the top, like, whatever. Like, I, like, I'll fuck with it. Old Dog with Pete Pablo is not great, but I could see what, that's, honestly, that's the thing.

I could see what he was going for on a lot of these records. And that's where I end up, where I'm like, I don't hate a lot of these records. Yeah. It's almost, I'm like, this is like a 75. And do you possess the thing to get it to a 90? That is exactly, that is probably the best note to wrap up on because that is how I felt about J. Cole for so long, and that was what I was hoping this project would prove him right for in terms of like, we all see the potential. He's more than potential. He's a great artist, but it's just like, it's just that last little, like, that last little 5%, 10%, that where it's like this, a lot of his albums could be genuinely great. Or it's just like, it just always falls a little bit short, but the you hear the potential in every single one. We're just like,

just get it over the edge. And like at times he does, but more often on the- put him in the studio with. Like, not even just like, if you were like, because I think what we're circling is,

Jay Cole needs someone he can trust that is a collaborator and is like, who is the Farrell to his clips, the Dr. Dr. Dre to his M&M, someone who is like, they might not produce every record, but they are good at editing. They're good at, like,

honing in. Like, I think about what Farrell kept telling clips with the last record, which is like, no, no, no, just hone in on the subject. Don't, like, don't go off on a fucking tangent. Like, we're hitting this note as hard as we can. Like, who is that person for a Cole? Yeah, I don't know, but I don't know if he's this type of producer, but, like, conductor Williams has the style of beats that I would like to hear Jay Cole on. Agreed. Whether he could be the producer in terms of, like, shaping him or, like, any other.

that stuff, like he's not a Dr. Dre or, you know, in that way or Farrell in that way. But I would love, it's again, the same thought I have about Eminem. It's like, give me the good, dusty vinyl record loop curated by a master producer like alchemist or conductor Williams. What about like a no ID? Like someone who is like maybe not producing every single record, but it's like you have a four, four, four where it's like you are almost there to keep this rapper on track. Right.

You know what I mean? And kind of keep them be like, always being like, what is the most honed version of this idea? And that's what I want from J. Cole, him almost to like let somebody in to be like, no, you're so talented. And I think we both agree. You're so talented and you have, you are so good. But I just need a little bit more from you. You know who the perfect person for this is actually? Who?

Kendrick. Yeah. Yeah. It's like literally. Kendrick and I think if he wanted to sign to PG Lang for an hour ago, I think Kendrick and Baby Gene could like get Cole and like make a really good Cole project. Be like, yo, let's tap in. Let's get like let's do a 12 song project.

That is that's why I think pairing these albums is actually very interesting. Because I'm just like, oh, I think a, like I think honestly baby Keam is maybe the answer. baby keen being like oh you want to be a little bit melodic on this hey i have a mo moboid for this let her do the hook instead that's what i want yeah he j-ckel yeah some curation but we're never getting a j-cote project again so it's not gonna this is uh but i think let's just end it there i i feel bad when i'm this harsh artist on on record on text message with me and you charles i'll let the takes fly

i don't think we were being that harsh i actually think we were kind of measured for the most. Like I was not trying to be an asshole. I was really trying to give it. None of this comes, yeah, none of this comes from like a place, a mean spirited.

None of this is mean spirited. I would like to get a beer with Jay Cole. I would like to get a beer with him and just be like, hey man, no, no like, appreciate what you do for the bill. Cause,

you know what I'm saying? Just it's, it's okay. And I want, I want him to be honest with himself. Hey, be like, hey,

no more songs about cheating on my wife or wanting to be like, keep it inside the bed. Maybe you'll connect with, you know, because there's a part of me that connects with, I've been married for a long time. So there's part of me that connects with that. Maybe one day. You were listening to Life Sentence and you were like, hell yeah. This how it feels.

Finally I got one for me. He understands my plight. Yeah. All right, Charles, well, this is beautiful. I always love talking to you. We're going to have a next season of Last Long Standing, which is the show me and Charles do together on the Dysk feed coming this summer. But before that is going to be season 14 of Dysect.

I'm going to reveal who that artist is very, very shortly. So is there a hint in the frame of your camera? Charles. What? Well, okay, well, if they listen to the whole episode, they deserve it. Because I was like, hey, that's sick. You're not. Honestly, I'll tell people this before we go.

This is the most hype I've ever been for a dissect season. Like, it's just like you feel energized, Cole. Like, you feel like, would you be texting me some of this shit? I was like, hey, oh, this is about to be a banger. It's got to be different. Yeah, I'm very excited. And I get to geek out on production more than probably I ever have before. So, hell, yeah.

All right. So we'll be back together. Last song's Standing this summer, season 14, coming very soon. Everyone listen to IDKs, even though The Devil Smiles. We got a beautiful interview with him next week. Thanks, Charles. All right, yo, thank you. Go.