Dissect - BONUS - Dissecting JESUS IS KING w/ Femi Olutade

Episode Date: November 1, 2019

Cole and Femi discuss Kanye West's new album Jesus Is King, including a song-by-song thematic analysis. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All right, I'm here with my co-writer Femi. How are you doing, Femmy? Doing pretty well. How about yourself? I'm doing great. Yeah, so today we're going to talk about Jesus King from Kanye West. We're recording this on Wednesday. Is it the 29th today?

Or the 30th? I believe it says 30th. Okay, Wednesday to the 30th. So the album's been out for less than a week. So essentially, I wanted to talk to you. I don't know about you, but I'm still very much formulating my thoughts about this album. Yeah. But I wanted to use this opportunity to kind of think through out loud some of the ideas that, you know, Kanye is working with on the new album.

And I thought what a better, what a perfect person to talk to would be you, since you have so much experience with Christianity and faith. And I think you're going to be able to shed some light. certainly some insights that I do not have into some of the things that he's talking about. So yeah, I'm really excited to kind of think through this out loud with you. So let's, yeah, as we work our way towards the album, I think you wanted to talk a little bit about how we approach the album. I think Kanye is such a complicated character and he's so in the public consciousness. So everyone's going to kind of have, it's kind of hard to avoid having some kind of preconceived

opinion about Kanye coming into this album. I know a lot of people are cynical about him now adopting the Christian faith. I've heard narratives of like this is just a way to get back into the public's good graces, which I don't

really agree with at all. I think this is more of a risk than anything. Yeah, totally. But then there's also the aspect of people coming into clearly he's Christian. Clearly this is his attempt at a Christian gospel album. And there's going to be certain, from some people, not all, but I would say for a lot of people,

there are going to be some kind of preconceived opinions about Christianity as a faith, gospel music as a genre, and just an entire album, you know, mostly about God. And you'll get into kind of how that's reflected. But yeah, I don't know if you wanted to speak a little bit about kind of audience. Yeah, sure. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think it's, of course, very interesting. And I think you're right. There's two, like, really big lightning rods here.

One being the persona of Kanye West and the other one being Christianity. And there are loads of reasons why people have opinions on both of those things. And we definitely covered a lot of, you know, that. And a lot of that's in the public space in terms of with Kanye and whether people's political persuasions and whether his recent, you know, actions are going to pull you, pull, you. you in or push you out. There's all that kind of stuff. And there's, there's race. There's other things like that that really affect how people kind of see him and whether they, they can identify with him or still feel like they can identify with him. So there's a lot of that. And then on the Christianity front, it's also this huge other thing that really cuts across, you know, so much. And I definitely,

in the little amount that I've seen other people react to the album, you definitely do see just like how whatever people bring to the table in terms of their, you know, preconceived notions about Christianity, whether good or bad, really is like a dominant lens in how they view the album. And so I kind of see that there's like, I kind of see there's like four like general kind of camps I see overall. It's like you have kind of the first camp, which is like kind of like really committed like evangelical Christians, evangelical, a term meaning kind of like people who are really focused on this kind of conversion story of this of this everything kind of changed based on this experience that was transcendent that really changed my way of thinking and feeling and this

kind of strong commitment to the new the Bible and reading that as as the really source of every part of life and so there's that group of people who I think that's one group that I think will I think mostly actually what I've seen actually mostly will actually really like the album in itself. And often if there's anybody that dislikes it within the group, it's like they know more about Kanye and they're doubtful about him. But this album is very much written with that audience in terms of it's written in that tradition and it's written with that audience. So the actual music and the ideas itself, I think are actually very acceptable to that audience. And then there's like people who are like have grown up Christian. They might still be or might not be, but they're not

necessarily as committed slash as much within this same tradition. And they probably have neutral or somewhat positive, you know, feelings about Christianity. And so they view it in this other kind of different way where they're not totally kind of committed to everything is doing, but they can kind of appreciate it and they can see that work out in some theoretical way that they could think is positive. And then there's people that might be like more secular that grew up with like zero or very little exposure to Christianity. And often you find they have kind of neutral and sometimes slightly negative views where it's kind of like, okay, this is okay or this is just for Kanye or whatever and maybe kind of take like a stance where we'll kind of wait and see and or kind of confusion

about how to understand this. And then I feel like you have like the last group which people that are more secular and like have very strong antagonistic feelings towards Christianity for for loads of reasons. Often in America that has to do with kind of like whether there's kind of a stronger loyalty to like a minority group and kind of a feeling that Christianity is either holding back or has held back or is oppressive to a particular minority group. So you have that often is the case. And so it's kind of like, it definitely like just colors how people come to the album. And I've seen people just really dismiss it just because and they are like, you know, and I'll read articles like, oh, it's really hard to listen to this album or they'll say

that about a chance to as well. And it will be, oh, and then they'll kind of go into the history of how they see kind of Christianity affecting their kind of community or things. So that's the thing. And I think, I don't think this, like, I think the album can be listened to any one of those groups. But I think the thing is you always have to kind of at least like at least for yourself recognize like where I am I in this because it's definitely going to affect how you're listening to it. And you have to decide if you want to listen to from that vantage point or do you want to listen to it from a vantage point that might be maybe closer to what either Kanye is saying

where he's from or where he's trying to speak to. And so I think that's one thing to think about. Okay. So let's get into the album. Yeah. We could start with I know you wanted to touch on kind of Kanye's role as messenger and and I don't even know how to say his name, but King, what's the king's name? King Nebidkinezer.

Oh, okay. So, yes. I'm not going to be able to say that. Yeah, it's a very confusing name. So yeah, so this is interesting because it actually, we're going to talk about it briefly here, but then it's going to come up again as on the last song, correct? Yes, it is going to come. We're going to talk about it a little later too because it's good.

It's a pattern. And it actually comes up in an interview that he actually says directly. So basically, and so for context, we actually are also going to hear this. It's going to actually be a repeating story because we're actually going to hear this too. I think we talk about this in loyalty. We've written these episodes actually a long time ago. So we actually mentioned this story in the in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the damn season on Kendrick Lamar when we talk about loyalty. So there is, it was, you know, actually my wife had actually been mentioning this when we kind of talked about the album coming out and how we had like looked at this for kind of loyalty and kind of Kendrick.

story. And it's interesting, we started thinking about Kanye in this way. And essentially what it is is that there's a story of this king. He's like the king of Babylon, which, you know, this is back some like hundreds of years before Jesus was born. And this king is, this kingdom is essentially an empire that is like the largest empire, like known to humanity ever. It had kind of conquered all of the most of the known world around them, including Israel. So they, they conquered them, deported them away and then everybody's kind of serving. So they're essentially like servants or, you know, slaves or people that are inserved the king or just living outside of their land. And so there is this really, really fascinating story where basically the king is like has this

dream about this large tree and then essentially like an angel comes down and like says it's time to chop it down and the angel like chops down the tree. And so then the king is like really confused about what the dream means. So he asks his people, what does what does this mean, all my advisors? And then nobody can tell him. And then there's this one Israelite named Daniel who basically has kind of gotten into the good graces of this king. And he asked this to this one Israelite. And he's like, oh, he interprets it. He's like, actually, the tree is you.

Like, you're the tree. And God says that you have grown too high. You've become too loft. You think of yourself too high, even though you feel like you're protecting and you've now created peace. You've now created all this order in the world. But God is going to come and chop you down. And how it's going to happen is that basically you are going to lose your mind.

You're going to have the mind of like an animal or like a beast. and you're going to basically go out into the wilderness and be like living with the animals until you recognize that God is the only one that's king above all people. And then, and so I encourage you to like actually change your ways to like do what's right, to turn away from your crookedness and show mercy to the poor. And then maybe like your kingdom will be extended. So that's what he says. The kingdom can't say he doesn't listen. And then months later, like I think about a year later, there's a scene where he's walking on top of his roof on the palace. which is already a sign that he is, he's at this height, right?

He's height, he's looking down on people. And this strong imagery throughout the Bible is this humility low and, like, pride high. So it specifically mentions he's on the roof. And he basically says that he, like, looks over his whole kind of like palace and his surrounding. And he's like, oh, is this not Babylon, the Great City? Babylon the Great, which I myself have built as my royal residence. And basically, and at the very moment he's saying this, there's this kind of word from heaven that comes down and says, like, now is the

time where you are like sovereignty, your power has been removed. And then instantly he goes crazy. He literally become, he has this kind of mind of an animal. He grows like long fingernails. He like starts running out like on all fours or running out into like the like the, into the forest and like lives among the animals and can't speak and is like eating the grass like the rest of the animals. And he does this for a week. And then at the end of the week it says he kind of looked up to heaven and then he, he recognized the most high being referenced to God. and then all of a sudden his mind was restored. And then his servants came and found him.

They brought him back. They restored him to his clothes and restored him to his power. And then it says that he actually increased in his power and his authority. And then after that, he praised like the Lord, the Daniel's Lord, the God of Israel, and said, and basically that this God is the most high. He's high above other people. I am not approaching him whatsoever. And that this God is the one that is able to humble those who walk in pride.

And so it's this really fascinating story that kind of comes in the middle of it. And it's very metaphorical for Kanye, I feel, because Kanye is this person who was really, like, at the core of all this stuff was his pride and his ego that really was driving him for so many years and for so much of what he was doing. And then it was kind of like what you saw in the last couple years was this, like, that finally led him to this breaking point where he just really broke down. Everything kind of came out. His sanity, his stability, everything kind of broke down.

And it was this point where he had to be humbled so low through everything and like everything that was going through things not working out. Like his just mind and pain and issues and anxiety. And it was at the very bottom where he finally looked up and recognized, you know what, I do not have this power. I cannot even take care of my own mind, much less think that, you know, I am a God, as I would have said on Jesus. And he looks up and he finally recognized that like, you know, God is the God above all people. and that essentially when, you know, he is, what he would think of is this is like how his mind has been restored. And he talks about, he'll talk about that in the album. And he feels that that's what has actually been allowing him to be able to operate in this way that is full of more wisdom and enables him to do things that are effective for himself and for other people that he actually can bless more people and lead to more goodness and justice and mercy for the poor in this life.

And so that's kind of the analogy. And it's something that like is very strong within, within, the narrative of Dam itself, because as we're seeing with element and even more so with feel, is that this, this like mental pressure and this kind of, and this mindset and depression and anxiety is what, what Kung Fu Kenney is going to go through as well, too. And it's why we actually use this exact same metaphor later. And this one, I like, surprisingly, like in the interview with Zane Lowe, Kanye specifically mentioned this story. Yeah. And he doesn't even, he mentioned it in relationship to Yizis, right? Because that right after he's, yeah,

and that's kind of how I've learned to frame Yeezus is kind of this story of this fallen king, basically. But yeah, it's super interesting that he mentioned this specifically, and then it is going to come up in the album, as you say, a few times. But yeah, so this idea of low, or not low in terms of humility, but getting to an emotional breaking point where ego and vice, and living in this one way and being driven. I mean, Kendrick kind of refers to them as spirits and being guided by these evil spirits

ends up kind of culminating for Kanye. We can view maybe the hospital as a low point. Yeah, and then that kind of ties into this idea of becoming a born again Christian. From my understanding, a lot of times when people are born again, and they are at a very emotionally low point in their life. Would you say that's true?

That is often, in terms of the narratives that I think very much empower that particular kind of a lot of the evangelical tradition and a lot of the stories and what we call testimonies. And it's very much of these kind of points of these kind of really crucial points of, you know, and you see this a lot with like people that have gone through drug addictions that have gone through with like really troubling things in their lives where they've maybe tried to rely on themselves. And it's really like you see this story happen again and again and again where where where where that happens.

And yeah, it's very much this kind of coming to the end of oneself kind of a thing, very low points in life where it somehow really shifts how people view. And I think Kanye is really putting his story like he's talking about his life within the context of that pattern and that kind of story. Yeah, I mean you can even hear that in yay. I feel like I was kind of this morning going back through his more recent work. and it's like if you if you want to view connie's life as a narrative and his albums as this larger narrative um yay you can definitely see i mean he starts the album saying he wants to kill himself you know and yeah it's this very low point it's written after he's been released from the hospital and kind of secluded himself um in wyoming and yeah i think it all frames i think it yeah there's

definitely a lot of parallels with the king of Babylon story. And it definitely does kind of help frame what Jesus' is king comes to mean. Yeah. So let's set up, before we get into each song, let's set up kind of the album title and how that's going to play out through the album. Yeah, so the album title. So I think we've, thankfully, if you've listened to Dissect this far,

you've kind of already seen us talk a little bit about this, this idea of the kingdom of God. And this idea of the kingdom of God being this idea that God is king and he rules over the world and humanity. And being living in the kingdom of God is living in this way that is subject to how God wants the world to be run in a way that is good. And so that's a lot of what it's really tied to. And the idea of the gospel, and gospel itself, the word gospel, literally like gospel, good spell. It's kind of a Germanic origin word. it literally just means good news. And in particular, it's like good news

relating to like the announcement of a new king, a king that's being there. And it's a word that was used by like Caesar Augustus. He referred to his own birth as being this good news that was going to bring peace to all of humanity. And you see that also really early on with like Jesus's particular ministry where he actually reads from a prophet named Isaiah

who talked about this idea of this good news. news that God was going to come and be king. And he talks about the idea that the Spirit of Lord is upon me, that he's anointed me to proclaim the good news to the poor, to proclaim the release of the captives, to restore sight to the blind and to free the oppressed. And so there's an idea of like this king coming to like free the poor to like come and like come be the king over these kind of people and lead them and release their captives from like slavery from like the, from being prisoners of war essentially. And you're going to see those ideas of captivity and freedom from like a pressure of are going to play really strong. And in terms of blessing and being the provider

for the poor is just really, really strong. And so that's really tied into the overarching, like this, the really word gospel itself and the idea of the New Testament and the kingdom of God. But even in a larger frame, like the idea of kind of kingship and kings and ruling the world is like probably one of the most central ideas in the entire Bible. And it just everything about the narrative is really running through that arc. And essentially, Because, like, from the very start, God is kind of depicted as the king in heaven. And then what he does is, in the early, in essentially like the first chapter, there is this, when God creates humanity, he says that he creates humanity, the image of God.

And so image, like an image of like a representation, something that can be seen because God cannot be seen. So this was like a word that like actually the kings of that era would use to strive themselves as saying, I'm the image of God, meaning that you need to treat me like you treat the gods. You need to come and bring me food. You need to go and worship me. You should like, I can kill you whenever I want to. Like, that's how you treat me. And what it's saying in the story in the biblical first chapter in Genesis,

it's saying all of humanity is made in the image of God, meaning that all humans are kings and queens. And specifically it says that all that he's made in the image of God so that they can rule over the earth and subdue it to be able to allow things to flourish, to allow all the animals to have food. So basically humans are created to be king. and queens who rule the earth on behalf of the king of kings, i.e. i.e. God, the Lord. He's

the king above, and they're represented that are supposed to act in the way that God acts. And the whole problem that's depicted from very early on is that humans basically decide to rule by their own definition of good and evil. They decide to kind of take what they want, and they take more than they actually need to have. And then they begin to act like animals. They begin to be driven by their urge. They begin to like kill and destroy and to have conflict. And so they become, they kind of become horrible kings. Sure. And they actually become like animals. Already you should be thinking of the Nebuchadnezzar story where Nebuchadnezzar is this king

and he becomes like an animal. Sure. I mean also, Yaw and the narrative of Dam comes to mind where he makes this clear declaration that I'm going to follow my intuition. Exactly. Which leads to him pursuing sex, money, murder, and rejecting God's call. Yeah, exactly. And you're also going to see in loyalty where he can just going to talk about

in I think the second part of his verse where he's like, I'm a savage, I'm an asshole, I'm a king, right? And it's playing in this exact same motif of the idea that humans are meant to have this high calling to be these humble kings of the earth and they've become like animals. And so basically this whole story kind of comes and builds up to the point within the Christian tradition,

it builds up the point of where no king that is kind of brought in is able to actually live up, No leader is able to do it. And nobody recognized that God is supposed to be king and they're supposed to rule like God. And so the story of Jesus, when you get to the New Testament and to the gospel accounts, is this idea that God himself comes down

and basically becomes a human so that he could basically enable humans to become kings like they were supposed to be all along. And that is this way of ruling in a way that is humble, that has forgiveness, that is love, that takes care of all people, those that are good to you and those that aren't. Those are your friends that are those of your enemies.

And like he basically restarts humanity and being this is the way that humans are supposed to rule and that's supposed to be what Jesus is supposed to be. And so, and it's through that that his followers supposed to learn how they rule. And by doing that, they are able to rule like the humans were initially supposed to. They essentially recover their calling,

recover the royalty in their DNA and are able to then be able to have this likeness of God to rule in his image to actually be good representatives that lead to the earth being good. And in that, like, the earth is restored. And that's, like, essentially the narrative of the Bible. And so everything is really keyed on this idea that Jesus is king, that God, or that God is king, that Jesus is all wrapped together. And that God Jesus is, it's a humble king. So there's really two points, like, about Jesus is king, which is one that, like, God is a humble king that rules over all creation. And the second is that God wants to transform humans so that they can rule the world in a

humble way just like God rules. Sure. And that's essentially kind of the story. And that's really underlying everything. And what Kanye, and why I think it's important is because some people from certain points, how Christianity is sometimes expressed in certain, like, places, and also how people perceive it accurately sometimes, maybe just accurately sometimes, is that, like, is that, like, the story is about how we make the world around us better and how we lead

the world to being good, how we participate in making the story. world, a place where there is life and flourishing, and that the humans and the animals and all of creation, that the land has rest, that, that animals have food, that humans have food, that everyone has, like, enough of what they need. Like, that is, that's, like, the central story. It's not about, like, escaping or getting away to some other, like, theoretical, ethereal life. It's not even necessarily, really about the afterlife, although the idea that, like, this life doesn't end seems to, is supposed to change how we live now.

But it's not about escaping or it's not about going somewhere else as much. it is making bringing heaven down to earth. That's like literally in like the Lord's Prayer, the prayer that Jesus teaches the disciples is like, let your kingdom come, let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. This idea that you're trying to make Earth be more like heaven, that you're partnering to be part of that work in terms of it being this place where people rule in this humble way

and people have what they need. Sure. And I think that idea actually segues perfectly with the start of the album, because the refrain on every hour is sing till the power of the Lord comes down. And that's what we're hearing over and over and over. Which I thought, you know, there's a few things that I saw really fitting with every hour being the start of Jesus' king. And that is, one, it's a Sunday service song.

And we've heard and seen Sunday service basically since the start of this year. And for them without Connie even on the song to start the hour, to start the hour. album, I thought was pretty fitting, like, just in terms of optics and, like, everything kind of leading to this album. But also, it was almost like a thesis statement, this line, sing till the power of the Lord comes down. It's like, totally. Connie's literally going to be singing his way to the Lord throughout this album.

Yeah. And so, yeah, I don't know. So what were your thoughts on, um, on every hour in terms of an album opener? Yeah, it's really brilliant. I think, yeah, you're right. It brings us, it like, it simply brings us into Sunday service, right? It like opens up this window into it. And I think that's also might be part of why it like it starts an end so abruptly.

It's kind of like you're just kind of getting a small window into it and that window kind of closes. And it's this thing where like it's like the every hour, every minute. This is like a song that's supposed to be kind of going on forever. It's like this ongoing thing that we're, that doesn't fade away, but we're just kind of getting a small snippet of it. It's kind of what I feel. And it really brings into where, and I think it puts the, thing that's most important for Connie at the front, which is, I think it is the Sunday service thing.

And he actually says in his interviews, particularly, I think it was the one with Zane Lowe, that like he sees music as his job. Yep, yeah. And Sunday service, he really feels as like his calling, like his vehicle through which he is learning how to rule in this way that brings blessing to like humanity and the earth and things. And I think, and so I think it puts it up in front. I think that's like really, really clear.

And then the, yeah, the sing to the power of the Lord comes down line. We talked a little bit about DNA where Kendrick says, the reason my power is here on earth. And we talked about the idea that that is like, that's this reference to the Holy Spirit, where Jesus talked about that he was going to send power upon his disciples, and they were going to be his witnesses that were going to be able to bring his story to the world.

And so you see that within this now is this power of being this Holy Spirit kind of coming down, the Spirit of the Lord coming down. And the idea here is that being that like having this, And if you've heard me talk about the idea of spirits before, how I tend to describe it within how it functions often within these kind of works, is that a spirit is really like, it's a shared pattern of, like, thoughts or a shared pattern of thoughts and emotions

that are shared amongst people, and they could be good or bad, but they create action. They create things that happen in the real world. And so there's this idea that, like, that this choir is singing for, like, the spirit of God to come down to be kind of present with them, to be present with us through like this album, and to like empower these people to live in this different way where they can kind of lead and go forth. And so this and what's interesting about that too is that that pattern is actually, it's a very

standard way in which the Christian services are organized historically. This is often what's called like an invocation, which literally means like an invocation, like an in calling, like vocation, vocal, literally like a calling in of the spirit into the room, into the people so that they can go forth and that what is kind of going forth will actually lead to what is good. Yeah, so yeah, very fitting that this, it starts with this. Yeah, I like that idea a lot. Yep. So let's move on to Sala. Yeah. Yeah, I want you to talk about the title. I have no idea what the title means, and it sounds like you have way better understanding than I do. So, yeah, let's start with the title.

Yeah, title. So I guess pronunciation, I'm not 100% positive. So somebody that knows Hebrew is going to have to correct on this, but I grew up hearing it said Selah, but I was listening to some people that spoke Hebrew, and they said Selah. And so I'll go with the Selah, because I think that might be more accurate. I looked up a couple times. But yeah, so Selah, it's interesting because actually most people, we actually don't really know what it means. It is actually a lot, there's several things that are in Hebrew that are in the Old Testament,

that because like the language kind of like wasn't spoken after a certain period of time, because of Babylon, and they got deported. And also there's another Syria. lost, they stopped speaking the language. By the time Jesus comes around, people don't actually speak Hebrew. So a lot of things actually were lost in terms of their really critical meaning. But there's a couple theories. So this word occurs pretty much only in two books, and the majority of it is only in the Psalms. And Psalm just means like a sacred song. So these are songs, they're poem, their poetry that might have been said to music previously that often would be

kind of sung in like a synagogue or in like a worship gathering. That would have been like its original function. They're these songs of worship, of adoration, of praise, and just poetry and that are about life and about struggle and about what God is doing in the world and what people feel at the time. And so this works occurs like maybe like 74 times. And it's always, it's usually like in between different lines and like maybe different stanzas. And so there's a couple different theories. One is that it means to like raise your voice to like a higher register. And so this is thought of like it's a, it's like a notation that like a musical instruction for that would be, used when these were kind of sung within the context of a worship service. And so that would make a

lot of sense, giving that we kind of opened up with this worship service with every hour in the first track. And also, that actually is going to come into the middle of Sela. And there's going to be this hallelujah chorus that's going to come in where they kind of raise their voices higher. So that would seem to have some correlation. There's a secondary meaning where it could mean like always and forever, which is somewhat maybe close to the high register, but it's kind of this always increasing thing. But I think it also might have to deal with the idea that this every hour, every second, is this like ongoing ever, always and forever kind of thing that's going on. So you have all that. And it's always in the Psalms. And like, you know, he has one of kids, his recent kid is named Psalm. So it all ties together there too. Yeah. So I wonder where he would have heard. Is this word used in the Bible? Is that where he might have heard? So it is if you, yeah. So it is written in the Bible a ton. Okay. And particularly in the songs. And the Psalms are very common. Like there's some certain books that like, most of it is. So it is. And the Psalms are very common. Like there's some certain books that like, people maybe don't read, but the Psalms are one that pretty much everybody read, just because they're like the poetry, a lot of prayers are based on the Psalms. So usually when you kind of,

if you're like a new Christian or something like that, people will often point you to maybe the Gospels and they point you to like the Psalms. Yeah. And so it's, it's calming that you would see and you maybe not know what it means, but it's just bad. Sure. Okay. Okay. That makes sense then. Yeah. Yeah. And then so obviously the album title is addressed in Kanye's first line. He doesn't say Jesus is king, but he says God is king and we the soldier. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I mean, for me, the way I've been thinking about this album, at least in terms of

like structure, it seems like the first half of the album is very much Kanye coming to grips with what this new revelation is going to mean, how he's going to incorporate it into his life. And there's almost like this, yeah, it's kind of clear in this first line. Like he's kind of preparing for the war that is forthcoming. now that he's, you know, a soldier of God. Yeah. Yeah, wondering your thoughts on that idea. And maybe you can give some context to this idea of God is king, we the soldier.

Yeah. So, yeah, so it makes sense again, right? So God is because it's king. And that means like what are we doing, right? So again, ancient near east, you got to think there's a king. What does a king need around them? You know, a king needs, you know, king needs his power, his throne. And then he needs like an army to, like, defend his territory, right?

Like that's like that's the image right. That's the metaphor. And then we'll kind of get to what it means that he says God is king here rather than Jesus is king because it actually comes down later when he later says Jesus is Lord and they're going to tie back together. But we'll get to that later. So so that's kind of the image. But when he says we are the soldier. So this is what I would say is I think even from the start he is he's already fully in. There's no kind of transition. He's fully in to committed to this kind of faith to what's kind of going on. What I kind of think about how the the narrative goes. There's definitely the split, and the split definitely happens at like everything we need. Everything we need is definitely the turning point. And the first half is different than the second half. And I'll talk about other things why, but I do think that there is a certain amount. And he struggles, I think, on the second half as well. But it's different than the first half.

And we'll kind of get to kind of why that is. But I think there's these residual things that he's going to be dealing with that you're actually going to see pretty quickly on this song and that are kind of, but are going to kind of carry, I think, a lot through the first half. The idea of so, but the idea that we are soldiers is a very, a very clear, like, thematic, like, tie to, like, a certain set of ideas in particular scriptures. And so what he is referring to here is what is, particularly within the evangelical tradition is referred to as spiritual warfare.

So we were already talking about spirits being the idea of, like, patterns, of shared patterns of thoughts or ideas. So there is this, there are these thoughts that, like, there is this idea or this concept that in the world for all people, really, and maybe it's supposed to be followers of Jesus recognize this, but it's actually true of all people, is that there's essentially there is this kind of battle between good and evil. You see this in Kendrick when he depicts this and took him a butterfly pretty clearly, right, with Lucy, Lucifer and like Jesus. It's that. Like that is like, that's Kendrick's way of depicting this. And then here, Kanye is basically

directly addressing that. And so where a lot of this comes from, there's two particular passages, there's one in like 2 Corinthians 10, where it talks about the idea that we don't walk in like the flesh and like the natural way, the animal way of doing things, but our weapons of warfare are strong for pulling down strong holes. And then it says, we cast down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. And then we bring every thought into captivity to obedience of Christ. So it's this idea, it's exactly what I've been saying. It's the idea of thoughts of arguments, high things, again, pride, high things that had exalted themselves, again, pride against the knowledge of God. And so it's about, it's an idea of thoughts

and patterns of thought in one's own self, maybe in the culture, but often in oneself that are exaltsing themselves and that need to actually be made obedient, that are actually leading to death and destruction and need to be kind of like brought into control. And then the other passage that is really closely tied to this is it's in Ephesians. And he's actually going to mention the book of Ephesians later. I think in hands on. Yeah, it's one of the last songs. Yeah, hands on. Yeah, he mentioned it there. And it ties together. But basically, there is this concept of what's called the armor of God. And it is this kind of metaphor about how these different attributes of God slash the attributes of that are kind of like fruits or kind of attributes that that are growing in the

life of a follower of Jesus are kind of get more more part of it. And they are depicted as kind of the arm like an armor and like a Roman soldier that they would be wearing. And so there's this thing in Ephesians, like the last chapter of Ephesians, where it talks about, close yourself in the full armor of God. And it kind of goes on to say that we don't struggle against flesh and blood. So we're not fighting against other humans. This is a point that you're going to see Kendrick make too as well in talking about who is overcoming. And it really gets salient later on in the later part of Dam. And so we don't struggle against humans, against flesh and blood, but against the powers and the dark forces of the world and against spiritual forces in the heavens.

And then it says, so then stand and then fasten your belt of truth around your waist, the breastplate of righteousness, have your feet fitted with a preparation that comes from the gospel, from the gospel from the good news of peace, and then take up the shield of faith so you can protect yourself against the arrows of the evil one, and then put on the helmet of salvation and take up the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God. So it's straight describing, depicting these Father Jesus as soldiers that are fighting against these spiritual force and thoughts of ideas by the attributes which are supposed to grow with them that are given by God. Sure. And yeah, I mean, I think the natural tendency is, yeah, it sounds confrontational. But I would think that part of the idea, and maybe a lot of it is fighting against oneself and the fighting. fighting against those spirits within your own body and your own mind. And I think Connie definitely is going to display some of that internal battle. He definitely externalizes it too. Yeah. I would say even more so in his interviews than in the music.

Yeah. But I think in the music there's going to be a nice balance of external battles and internal battles. Yeah. And I think, yeah. So even just starting the album in that way, really frames this battle he's about to kind of embark on. Yeah. Yeah.

Which, and I think I'll put on two things. I mean, one is that the majority of things that are depicted are all defensive pieces. What do you mean? The majority of that, it's all about this idea of God being our protection. Oh, got it.

Oh, got it. Yeah, yeah. Right? Because it's not like a whole bunch of different weapons. It's actually the emphasis is actually on the protective nature. Got it. That because, and you're going to see this later because he talks about that Jesus won the victory.

So it's not even. us like the humans that are fighting. Got it. It's that Jesus is actually the one that has already fought and won and that those that are following him are just defending and protecting themselves and allowing God to be their protection. Sure, sure. In this ongoing battle that it's happening.

And that's really happening inside of them. And this is what you're going to say with Kendrick, particularly toward the end when you get to Duckworth. It's like I used to think that it was me versus the world until I found out that it's me versus me. Yeah, yeah. Right. Same idea here.

And so I think some people might talk about, oh, this is very military. this is like they're kind of going back and they're going to threaten us to these other people. That's not the idea that's being depicted here. And you're going to see that come up because even any time where you see conflict with Kanye and other people, he's going to have depicted in a very negative way. Like that's not what he's supposed to be doing. Sure. And what is with other people.

And he really turns it more in on himself and trying to turn into what is going to like lead to like life and blessings for myself and others. Yeah. So is there anything before we move on? I know there's a lot to cover in this song, but we don't have all day. So is there anything else you think is critical to point out before we move on to the next song? Yeah, I'll just hit them up really quickly. I think this song just generally opens up, like, addresses like a lot of really motifs or themes that kind of are in are really present and they're going to be present throughout the album.

One is the idea of light. So it actually says like ultra beam out the solar, which is of course the reference to ultra light beam from Life of Pablo. And it introduced the theme of light, which is one of the ways that God, is described it, that Jesus described as the light from heaven. There's even actually like a part in 1 John where it describes the gospel, the news of the, this is like the message of the gospel, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. So light is even itself like this metaphor, this like itself a metaphor for the gospel. So that's in there. There's an idea of water. That's

also a really strong motif that's going to run through the entire album. There's actually a song called water. And how he introduces it first is the idea of him comparing himself to Noah, which is a figure in Genesis who basically saves his family and all of creation, including all the animals, by following God's commandments when there's a flood that comes to that God ascends to basically wash away kind of the wickedness of the world and these people that are refusing and are destroying the earth. And so this water is first introduced in this destructive way. And you're going to see later that the character's water change. And they also get cleansed because it's also in cleansing way because he talks about that Jesus did the laundry.

So both this idea of water cleansing and destroying what is old and what is actually causing damage is also there. So that's all there. There's this concept of freedom from slavery. That he talks about who the son has set free was free indeed. There's a conversation he has with some leaders where he says them that they need to become free and they're like, we're like, we've never been slaves anywhere. And it's ironic because they come from a people that were slaves in Egypt, but they've kind of forgotten this. And so then he's like, oh no, like if you, anyone who is practices sin, anyone who practices wickedness is a slave to wickedness is a slave to sin. Because there's that the slavery that he's talking about and that he's that that's also going to be a large

theme throughout the album is first introduced here as something that is due to the tendencies the evil the evil the wickedness and that again is something in the gospel is to again to the freedom from captives is an essential part of the gospel and so that's really well tied in there so I think those are some of the big things and then the last thing I'll mention is that there is this residual pride that you'll see in here like he'll talk about the idea where he when he gets to the gates like he's going to yell at the, he just, no need to peek over, he's going to yell at the chauffeur. I'm not mean, I'm just being focused. And so you might, like, you might think that maybe it's positive, or that's just him being

like, you know, like aggressive and being like a soldier. No, that's actually not what's going on. It's actually, I think, trying to depict him as being this residual pride that you're actually going to see a lot in the first half. I think that's a lot of what actually you see get washed away. Exactly. Yeah. And through the middle of the aisle. Yeah, and that's kind of what I was alluding to between the division of the two halves. It's like this, I think cleansing is probably a really great.

way to frame that idea of yeah we are going to see these I think this actually leads right into follow God yep it's you know I think maybe more than all any song this actually does address the residual pride and yeah totally hones in on this the conflict mostly clearly yeah most clearly mostly I guess with this father and how like yep you know there's a bit of conflict that he addresses several times. That's like the only refrain in this album. Yeah, really clear. Yeah. So, yeah, so let's jump into Follow God. Yeah. And again, like even in the semantics of the title, you know, it's, it's follow God. Like, it's almost like he's talking to himself. It's the direction he is going. Yeah. And getting to. And then that also is reflected in the sample, which is,

Father, I stretch my hand to you. There's this idea of kind of following, of reaching and trying to get somewhere. Yeah, totally, yeah. And that language, that particular, yeah, so that's a gospel song. I think he used that on like Pablo. It's his term, Father Stretch My Hands. So it actually, it's the idea of stretching one's hands is actually depicted often, particularly in the Psalms. It's depicted as an indication that someone is seeking help.

from a deity. So it is often the person that's writing the Psalm will, the kind of poem will depict themselves as like, I'm stretching my hands to God. So like looking for help. It's a sign of help. And there's sometimes where the poet will like, or the prophet will like critique the Israelites for reaching their hands out to like the deities of other nations. And so it's all about like looking, like reaching out to his father looking for help. That's what it is. And it's interesting because it kind of contrast with his like earthly father who kind of is. Who kind of is. like rather while God is this person that he's helping trying to reach to, his like earthly father is kind of like,

seem to be like intentionally pushing his buttons because he knows, he knows what's kind of going on and he kind of gets him and he kind of draws him out. And like, maybe, you know, maybe there's an implied that he doesn't like trust that he's fully changed or something. But he like, he kind of pushed him out and then like kind of criticize him and like, oh, you're not acting Christ like. And like, yeah, then even that that critique itself is like tying back to this idea that humans are supposed to be made in the image and likeness of God.

And thus like humans and then within the, the language in the New Testament, human like the Father Jesus are supposed to be like Jesus. Again, they're supposed to become like God, become representative like Jesus is representative. So Connie is kind of, his father's kind of pointing this out that, oh, you're not being a good representative of Jesus. And then he, and then Connie also kind of like somewhat points out that like nobody really tells him whenever he actually is behaving more like Christ. And Christ, I would say the Christ itself, the meaning of the word Christ is like anointed one,

which refers to the idea of kind of like oil that's a ritual that was used to select a king. So a king, that's how, it just means anointed one. So it means somebody that's been selected and giving this oil as designated as a person who the spirit of God is going to be on so that they can be king and lead the world. So it's really saying that you're not being a true person that has been a no, you're not being a good king is what he's saying, essentially. Sure. And that kind of falls into this kind of first half thematic element and through line.

not quite being there, but stretching his hand, asking. Exactly, yeah, totally. So let's go on to closed on Sunday. This is, you know, there's a lot going to be on in this song, but we can't spend a crazy amount of time of each song. So I guess I'm interested to hear what are kind of some of the bullet point things that are addressed in your eyes in this song. So yeah, so there's a couple things.

So one, I think this is a couple things. one is the idea of needs, which has, we mentioned that it's one of the core themes. It's brought in in every hour. And it's actually central. And why it is is because the idea of closed on Sunday is it comes from this longer tradition within Judaism, within the ancient Israelite kind of laws and practices, that you're supposed to have a Shabbat, a Sabbath, a day of rest where everyone, animals, humans, everything rest.

And the idea is that even in this agricultural society that was in ancient Israel, everything had to rest because that's how you bring justice and goodness to the world. You can't just use all the resources on the world. And so, but it's also challenging because if you don't, if you don't work that day, it means that you're less productive. And so it means that you have to trust God to be, to allow everything to be productive in six days and not, not work on the seventh day, even when you could. So it's this idea of trying to do less and trusting that what you're going to do and what God

can provide for you in six days is enough. So again, it actually ties right back to like, we need you. The idea of needs is really, really strong there. and it's him exercising and walking in that leaning and relying on this truth and this belief that that actually will work out. So I think that's one really big overarching thing. There is, again, the concern of protecting his family. He talks about when you have daughters, keep them safe, watch out for vipers.

This actually goes back to Yeh with violent crimes and him talking about when you have daughters. He realized that women aren't something to nurture, not something to conquer. Other than his mental health, I think, like, having a daughter is probably the one of the biggest other thing that changed the way if he looks at things. So that's there. Plus with the vipers, that's also like keying back to the Garden of Eden story with like the snake that deceives the woman. Again, woman and his daughter and deceives her by trying to say that like that that the

struit will give her wisdom, wisdom so that she can decide good and evil for herself. And so that's why he used the word indoctrinate, this idea of wisdom that's coming from outside of what is good and what is enough. And that outside of what we have because we already have the wisdom that we need. So you have that. you have the no living for the culture where nobody's slave. Again, this idea of slavery

captivity that he's addressing throughout the entire album. It's something that he's talked about outside of this publicly and in the interviews of his belief that the culture is this force that has been created on top of us and is controlling us and getting us to do things. And when you see this, the idea of slavery and things like that, it's this thing that people need to be kind of

freed from because I think it's the same way that Kendrick might talk about sex money murder, these are the breaks, right? The idea that these are the breaks, like very closely tied to hip-hop culture, the breaks, Curtis Blow, sex and money murder, that these are the things that are embedded in the culture. And that...

I think the song, Lust is, you know, pretty much kind of embodies that those kind of the kind of commands of culture. The idea of slavery becomes so salient in Lust. Like, and we're going to get there in the podcast, and that's really, really strong there. The idea that people have become slave and the idea that you'll see in Lust that there is this idea of like a concert and a show and experience. and is depicting the culture and this expression of the culture as being something that is that is creating a slave and getting Kendrick to create other slaves.

Exactly, yeah. Yeah. All right, so let's move on to On God. I would say this one challenges me the most, at least at this moment. Yeah. And I think, well, I would say specifically the lines about him charging high prices. Yeah, yeah. And I haven't really wrapped my mind around that and what it means to the,

if it does apply kind of to the character or the journey here, or if it is kind of him talking more transparently about, he's obviously talking about his clothes and maybe even the Sunday service merch because that was kind of a controversial topic for some. So, yeah, I guess, well, before we get there, that's kind of towards the end of the song. Yeah. You know, why don't we briefly talk, you can talk a little bit about your thoughts on, on God.

Yeah, so it's interesting. So on God, the way he normally uses it, and just generally the way this phrase is normally used within urban cultures is on God is kind of a way to like swear or to make like, to like basically say, I'm like telling the truth. So it's something that you would, to say on something is to say like, oh, I'm going to be there. Yeah, I put my grandma's grave or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

I put on my grandma's grave. I put that on mama. I put that on Pairoo. I put that on Crips, like the different gangs. I put that on God. So God, the ultimate thing, like, is it's trying to, so what's interesting about that, right? It's Kanye, he's making his own statement and he's using God to try to back up his own statement. Yeah.

Right? So that's what that's like one, I think, layer of it. And what's actually interesting about that is in, like, Jesus's teaching on the kingdom of God, this is specifically talked about where it says basically don't swear by heaven. Don't swear by God. Don't sweat by anything, but let your yes be yes and your no be no. don't try to bring God to validating your own thing that you're trying to say for yourself. Yeah, interesting.

And so it's very, yeah, it's very interesting. So there is this kind of thing where it's actually tied into like a little bit of thing of pride in terms of like him trying to elevate his own words by using God to elevate his own words. Yeah. And that's maybe what I have a, I had a kind of intuitive resistance against. And that, and that's a lot of the things that I found kind of, I don't know, problematic is the right word, but in his interviews, like, you know, he's just, he said, like, the Trump hat was God's

joke on liberals. I'm just like, I don't, really? Like, is that how you're going to frame that? Like, it just seemed like there's some moments in which he was using God to justify some things that I just thought were a little bit off. And I felt like that was kind of here in the lines that I talked about, about him, you know, charging and saying that you can't land his family starve. And that's why he goes hard, which I don't know, just didn't really sit with me correctly. Yeah. I don't think it's supposed to. Yeah.

That's kind of where I'm like, trying to reserve judgment. And like, Connie does this a lot where he, you know, Kendrick does this too, where he expresses something that is meant to sound, it's meant to be flawed and it show the character flaw with him in himself. Yeah, totally. I think this is definitely on that. And it's something that you'll hear in his interviews, but I think that he recognized it.

see, he knows that he's always still falling prey to this same pattern. And what's, which, so the line actually starts with, like, he talks about the idea that that they want 50 plus I tithe, which is basically, a tithe is basically the practice of kind of giving 10% of one's kind of earnings to, to the church or some kind of religious organization. And so he's basically saying that, like, I'm having to give, like, over a month, like, and he's kind of complaining about it, right? So it's really interesting that he's, like, trying to, like,

talk about how much he's, like, tithing, which is supposed to be something he's, like, there's actually also, like, talking, like, the, and Jesus' teaching on the kingdom of God of, like, not letting anybody know what you're giving. So this idea that he's already talking, like, trying to make a deal about what he's giving and that fact that he's tithing and trying to make us feel sympathy for him, that he's, like, he's having to, like, get taxed and, like, tithes so much. And so there's that part of it.

And then he uses that to justify why he's charging, he's charging more money. But what's interesting about that, right, is that he then says he's like, he said, I can't let my family starve. Yeah, yeah, rather than kind of giving that to God. Is that what you mean? It's not on God, it's on Kanye. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the whole irony of the song, right?

Is that he's supposed to put these things on God, and he's actually putting it on himself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it ties into this whole thing of needs and, like, he's not able to trust. And so he has to go hard, which, as you're going to see, is the opposite of water. Yeah, yeah, yeah. which is a song that comes directly after everything. Yeah, I was going to say we should probably jump into,

because yeah, now that I kind of have a better understanding of what this might mean, it makes sense that this would be right before. Right before everything we need. Yeah, everything we need becomes this kind of pivotal moment. Totally, yeah. I'll let you talk through this,

but like the first verse, Kanye is still kind of focusing on himself. Yeah. So yeah, this is the pivotal, this is a pivotal moment on the time. And we should address like, Literally, the refrain is switch your attitude.

Like he says that over and over and over. So it's like a very clear signal that this is the switch. Totally. So this is a really an amazingly designed song. It's really, it's genius how it's design. So basically it starts off with him saying with, I think, Tidalas sign singing, like we began after the storm inside, which is back to Noah, this idea of storm and cleansing and destruction of what is old and what isn't working, what's leading to destruction.

the idea of laying the land, like causing, causing, is actually what God says to know afterwards, go and multiply, go rule the earth, make it like produce, right? And the idea of light, that light kind of, this is a new day, this is like a new start that happens after the storm, kind of washed and cleanses and destroys

what's kind of like not working, right? So you have all that, and then kind of comes in and like switch your, switch your attitude, which switch all the way back to the, like, the last thing he said was morning light, and then like he says, switch your attitude. It's like a light switch, right?

It's like things are, changing, we're going from dark to light. And also you talk about like a light switch went off, right? There's a certain realization that's happening in the song, right? And it's all about switching, it's all about turning. And this is the switch point. And as you know, this is the middle track of the album, right? This is like, there's 11 tracks. This is like what track number six, right? So it's like, it falls exactly in the middle. Sure. And this is like this is the switch point. And the switch point itself even falls in between the two verses. Yeah. And I was just and what comes right after is water.

Water, yeah. And this act of cleansing on water, clean us like the rain and spring, take the chlorine out the conversation or our conversation. Yeah, exactly. So we'll get there. Yeah, we'll get there. But yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, no, but it's good to keep. You have to got to keep the gun back and back and forth. But yeah, it's really cool. So he's like switch your switch attitude. And he put it up. So he says like this, get your, go ahead, level up yourself. This, that different latitude. Level up yourself. Exalting. Yeah. Exalt yourself. Lift yourself up, right? Yeah. Literally the definition of pride.

It's literally, exactly. Literally the definition of pride is lifting oneself up. And then there's this kind of like, life's too short. Go spoil yourself. Feel that feel. Enjoy yourself. Right. Kung Fu Kenny, you know. It's Kung Fu Kenny, right? Because we have everything we need. Right. It's like this thing of like everything we need. It's this idea of like, oh, we've made it. Now I'm going to stunt. Now I'm going to show off. Now I'm going to live for myself. I'm just going to bask in it. I'm just going to enjoy because like we have everything and we need. It's what you said. What you heard at the beginning of Timu Butterfly too where he's like when I get signed home, I'm at the fool. Right? Same idea, right? It's the idea that the idea that what do we do with prosperity. Yeah. And this idea that when he has everything he needs, he's like, now I just can enjoy myself. And until you like use it, you get tired of it. And you're like, like, I don't have enough. And then you have to go and get more. And then you're like, okay, now we have everything. Let me enjoy myself again.

It's all this commentary of this kind of cycle of that. And I think goes off to this idea of what he said in the last track, right, of like, I can't let my family starve. Like he's like always living like, I need to get more and more and more because I need to protect myself, which I mean, then to get more money, right? I need to get more. Like it's, again, it's like, like, it goes back to even like, yeah, where Kenny's like, I know he walks the earth, but there's money to get.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. All of that. I think it's that and what's interesting to is it says switch your, switch your attitude. It's like, it's almost like it's a message that's coming to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it's a message that's coming to him.

It's something that's being spoken like over him almost. Like, it's like, I would throw out. I'm going to guess it's actually, it's kind of like, it's like a serpent kind of thing. It's like a snake kind of moon. Of like there is this message, there's this idea that's getting him not to trust that he has everything that he needs or that what he has is like, it's for himself, right? And so I think that's, so that's, that's kind of the first verse.

And that's how you initially interpret the idea of everything we need. This is Kanye basking in his, like him having like having so much, right? And so you have that and then it kind of kind of goes into that we began after the storm inside. This again, repeating this idea of like this kind of cycle. It's like almost like a second cycle wash or something like that. And then he says, switch my, switch my attitude. Oh, yeah, it goes from your to my. I didn't notice that.

Yeah. Yes, exactly, right? And then he's like, I'm radical. There's this change that's happening. I'm so radical. These people are mad, and this is what, for who it matters to. So he kind of sets everything up. And then he's like, this light is, it's amazing, I think.

He says, what if Eve made apple juice? You go and do what Adam do or say, baby, let's put this back on the tree. And then they bring back the hook, which Tidalas lying singing, because we have everything we need. So it's like one way. I think I, I think it's text to you when I heard. this live and I was like this is this is the best this is best life yeah we texted about it right away I think right away yeah I was on the subway and when it's funny some people think it's like corny or they

they try to dismiss it they're like oh this is stupid but mine was like my first impression before I even thought about the meaning was just like it was such a Kanye filtration of of this idea like just humorous and just kind of cute or something but yeah I'll let you explain your interpretation of it okay yeah so like I think this was like one one of the most compact, like, is a brilliant, brilliant line. So what, so, so course, please to pick me here. Just to frame it, this is his last words on the song, correct? These are the last words of his song, right?

Yeah. So, and this is really where the switch, where it's clear the switch happens. So this goes back to the story of the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2 and 3, which is depicted of these kind of first two prototypical humans. One is named, the male is named Adam and the female is named Eve later. So it's interesting is their name. So Adam means humanity and Eve means life. What episode? We talk about this on...

I think we talked about this in... Yeah. Yeah. We talked about it in Ya, about walking the earth. So there are these representative figures that really represent something more than just themselves. And in this kind of narrative, God plants this the Garden of Eden. Eden means delight. So it's this place where there is delight, where there's like goodness, things are really good.

And then on top of that, it specifically says that God like plants, all of these trees, all kinds of these trees that are pleasing, that are good for food and are delightful to the eyes. Like it's like, it's an Eden, it's delightful. Everything's delightful. These trees are delightful in the eyes. And then what happens is this snake comes over at some point. He tells basically, oh, so before that, he tells them like, hey, look, there's this tree in the middle. Like, every, you can eat all this, there.

I've got all these good trees for you everywhere. But there's this one tree. It's called like the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And it's in the middle of the Garden of Eden. and do not eat this fruit because if you eat it, it's going to kill you. It's going to lead to your death. And so he tells that to them, or he tells that to humanity, Adam. So that's to humanity.

And then the next basically, the next kind of scene or seen after after kind of Eve is kind of created, there's a scene where this snake figure comes up and talks to Eve, the woman, and says, is like, hey, like, God didn't really say that. you're not going to really, really, you're not going to really die. God just knows that like, when you eat of this fruit,

you're going to, it'll make you wise and you'll be able to be like God and know good from evil. Which is, again, like playing on things because humans are created in the image and likeness of God.

They already like God, but somehow she's forgotten that. And, and so then Eve looks at this tree and takes the, and then says, it is, and says, oh, and she looked at it and saw that it was good for food

and the delightful to the eyes. And the irony, of course, is that all the other trees are good for food and delightful the eyes. Like, they already have everything they need. But it's this one that Eve wants to take. And so she takes it. And it says immediately after she ate it, and then she gave it to her husband, Adam, Humanity, who was with her, who was there the whole time? And he ate it. So there's kind of immediate things.

And that's the story. And then things kind of devolved around there. They kind of feel shame. Like, there's destruction. They actually have to get eggs out from the garden. And the world kind of decays after that. But what Kliney does here is he takes that narrative and he kind of like adds his extra twist to it where he says, what if Eve made apple juice? So it goes from being this automatic thing to this point where like this apple is taken.

It's like it's like put into like a blender. It's like made juice and it's kind of handed. There's this kind of process between it kind of being taken down and kind of being handed to the person. And then it's kind of like the natural thing is it's made or the apple juice. You might as well drink it. But then it's kind of like he has this realization because he was there the whole time. And it's all of a sudden he has a realization, wait. we probably shouldn't be doing this.

Like, let's go put this back on the tree. And of course, the irony is you cannot put juice back on a tree. Like, it's already enough if, like, you, if it was like an apple itself, maybe you can tape it or something like that, but you can't just put juice back on a tree. It's literally impossible. And it is this huge commentary of, like, what happens when, like,

how do we reverse what has already been happened in our society, in our world, in our own lives? There's a story actually in the Gospels where Jesus talks about the idea that like for a rich man, it's like, it's as easy to enter the kingdom of God as it is to enter like a camel to enter the eye of a needle, meaning it's impossible. And God says, oh, it's like, yeah, with humans, this is impossible, but God, all things are possible. So there's this idea that like, this is an impossible thing to undo, like this, like this choice

to take the idea, like deciding a good and evil for ourselves. And in this, you hear this like impossibility to reverse what has been done. And you in this, you hear Kanye's like, he's created all of this. He's made all this music that kind of maybe led certain people to act in certain ways that now he actually disagrees with. He's led himself to his own kind of like destruction and his own kind of like addictions. Like there was that conversation that like argument him and Kim had with about like her dressing too sexy and kind of like you like this is part of like you. Part of your decision. Even how you dressed our daughter.

And it's kind of like he's done this. He's like how do you undo this? Right. Like he's like he's like in more than that he's created the culture. Yeah, he is cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He is, like, he's like, he's like, the culture has been writing on him. He's helped create this and he's taken it to where it's going to go.

And now he recognizes it, like, he's enslaved to this culture. Like, in the interviews, he talks about the idea that he used to think he was God of culture. And now he realized that culture was his God, that he was serving culture. And that now he's like, how do I undo all of this? And so all of that is this metaphor of like, how do you put apple juice back on an apple tree? It's just, it's impossible. And so there is this only hope that only by God is it going to be done. And it's this thing and it's this idea, right?

There's Adam and Eve, humanity in life. And it's this idea that each of us humans, like each of our humans, like life hands us a glass of apple juice. Yeah. And it's this idea that like... It's exactly DNA. Yeah. It's the idea of your, he frames it as inherited DNA.

Yeah. It's our inheritance of culture, our inheritance of biological, environmental upbringing. whatever this now we're framing it as apple juice, but it's the same thing. It's like, we are born in these conditions of life and what are we going to do? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. That's it. And Kanye is now at this point is like, I don't know what I can do, but I can at least like have this attitude of like, let's do something about this. Like let's try to put this back on the tree. And like that's the change. That's the change that happens. And then this leads right into water, which addresses this. I mean, it really addresses kind of, well, it's like an asking.

It kind of goes back to stretching one's hand out. Water, again, the refrain. One of the refrains is cleanness, like the rain is in spring, take the chlorine out of our conversation. And I think that's like this is going to be, and like there's a shift in like, well, an attitude where I feel like he becomes more humble in his asking almost. Yeah, too, yeah, definitely. And there's more of like a service or. a servant kind of

like the tone shift even just the way the lyrics are written become more yeah I don't know if soft is the right word but they're just more I don't know what the right word is here but they're like pliable or something like that I think that's what I would describe with water it's like I think that's what I did because water can be to take form and take mold and it's like

he's not like demanding he's not like this rigid thing he's like he's becoming to learn how to flow and I think it goes in the idea of like we are water. Yeah, giving up, giving up our grasp and our hold and our kind of semblance of control on our own life and then giving that over to God and then just being water in which that moves fluidly in the way, in the direction that God pushes them. Yeah, totally. And the idea that we are water, that we become this cleansing force, that we become this thing that sustains, that allows new birth, that allows thing to be clean. And this, and this is, that we become

And this is actually all taken directly from the gospel of John and John 4. And there's this conversation about where people where this woman who's had like five husbands asks Jesus for water. And he's like, I can give you living water. And then if you drink it, then like it'll turn you into a fountain that gushes out. More living water. Yeah, we talk about it a lot. That other people can drink.

Lod that a lot in season five. Exactly. Yeah, both in Good Command City in I'm Dying of Thirst section of Sing About Me. I'm dying thirst, and it comes up very directly on lust as well, too. But it's that. It's this idea of becoming water, becoming these fountains that sustain, and that through love, becoming these life sources for other people, and that become heal and become satisfied. And after all, water is what we need.

It's like one of the most essential things. And we are whatever. All life needs. I forgot the percentage of, you know, we are. I think it's like 60% or something like that. I think is what it is. And that 75% of like the, of, I guess, the land. It's this idea that you, you know.

need water to have life. The idea of like we have everything I need. The fact that it starts with water because that's what you, that's what makes earth, earth, that we have water that we can have life. And it's again, this image that like when when Kanye realizes that like that he needs to put the apachees back on the tree, it's when he like is able to to bask and enjoying that we actually have been giving everything we need. We've been given water. We have what it takes to create life in this world and to create flourishing. Sure. And yeah, it's very fitting his only verse. I guess he would call it a verse. Yeah. Is I would say the most, concise declaration of, well, I mean, it's a litany that starts with Jesus and him asking

very humbly for Jesus to provide water, but also wealth, keeping us safe. And really just, it's like the first moment that things, I feel like things really crystallize. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, the idea, this idea of litany was really interesting. And I guess we haven't got to it on the season yet for what people have heard, but it's kind of fitting because I feel is our next episode that comes out next week, which is a litany,

and we're going to talk about, you know, kind of the historical roots of a litany and how they kind of derived from religious practices. But, yeah, I mean, before we, maybe we can leave that conversation for the episode, but is there anything about water you want to say before we move on to God is?

Not too much. I think you covered it. I'll just kind of add to that. Yeah, like I think you covered the really good lines. Like that's what I was going to highlight too, that he gives us wealth, he keeps us safe.

The idea that like remember before at the end of on God, he's like, I can't let my family start. I go hard. And now he's water. He's soft. He's pliable.

And like he just humbly asked Jesus. Jesus give us wealth. And then give us grace, right? That they're tied together in what God, what Jesus kind of gives him. And that Jesus ties him back into like the idea of the soldier. And, Yeah. Yeah. And he keeps us safe. And not just that he keeps us safe, but he is our safe. He's where we put our wealth. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. I didn't think about that. Yeah. Which isn't just money. It's this idea. And it ties into Jesus' teaching of like follow like those that are blessed in the kingdom of God. They live in this way that are persecuted, that do things, things, that forgive their enemies. They have treasures in heaven. Treasures that are kept safe that are with me that I protect, that are more than the money than the possessions that you can have on earth that are going to rot and decay. Jesus, because, because of the

comes our safe that holds everything that is precious and that it gives us the ability to live and sustain us. Yeah. And we just finished the episode on God, on God, the song from Damn, which basically is the same idea, expressed differently, of course, but he does talk about, I mean, I don't want to get too much away, but, you know, like the really the culmination of that song and really the album is that last line where he's, where Kendrick says, my heart is rich, my heart is famous. And exactly. This idea of rather than externalizing wealth and looking for kind of material possessions and, you know, just external manifestations of what he feels is success or wealth and coming to this realization that his heart is enough

because his heart is now with God and kind of giving that over to God. So yeah, let's move into God is, which is one of my favorite songs on the album. Yeah, this track. It's really, really powerful. I can hear in his voice. It's just so I feel just honest. I just feel something very strong. It's the one, it's the song that really caught my attention on my first listen. It's the one that always kind of continues to catch my attention, you know, subsequent listens.

So, yeah, you have in our notes, this is the emotional centerpiece of the album. I would definitely agree. I think so, yeah. So yeah, let's get into kind of the heart of the message here. What's like, what's the first thing that comes to mind for you? There's so much about this. I mean, this is like essentially that kind of Kanye's like what within the tradition, like his testimony essentially, kind of him like really just directly telling us like

what God has done in his life is like essentially what it is as. And in this way of saying that this is what he wants to do, not just for me and more, but more people and how he's using me in this ways to to create goodness in the world, right? So there's all of that. That's like the overarching thing. It kind of, it starts with a sample of like another gospel song, which is also called God is. I think of the song by James Cleveland. And again, light and darkness going all the way back to the theme of light, the idea that

this is the gospel, that God is light and him is no darkness. And has talks about that. It talks about that God being my all and all. Again, he's everything I need. it says, I'll never turn back. This idea that this is supposed to be, along with the testimony, this idea that like, whereas we were debating, is this going to be temporary or not?

Within the song itself, it's like, I'm not turning back. I'm committed to this way of living, even though I'm going to struggle, even though I'm not going to always follow God and be Christ. Like, I'm not turning back. It's kind of the kind of commitment statement that it's saying here. So that's there. Really early on, he talks about worship Christ with the best of your portions.

And that's the thing about actually offering. This is kind of language that's taken from the Torah about giving up your kind of best offerings, your first fruits, the things that you kind of get first, kind of like somewhat similar to giving up the Shabbat your day of the week, to kind of give that up and to trust God that he will bless you with the rest, but that you need to learn to let go and not take everything. And it's this idea, again, it ties back to everything about what we need. And now he's gone all the way from being like, I can't let my family starve, like I have to go hard to like, I've become water, I'm loose, and now I'm giving.

giving up what I have to like give it up to you and not complaining about it, about how like I'm losing half of the pie. Like I'm just offering to you like thankfully. So that's like really key. And so like the thing of kind of of this new life of and of needs. He talks about again, he kind of goes into these kind of things that like might be might be some of people might I will talk about, oh, this is cliche, king of kings, lord of lords. But what it's saying, right, it's again the idea of Jesus is king.

It's the idea that he is king and we're all kings. and what that means is that we need to learn how to rule in this humble way because God is a humble king. He talks about Jesus as being the fountain that fills his cup. That's like again, water imagery, the idea of being a fountain

that feels that he is satisfied going back to again John 4 and this idea of becoming a fountain that give living water. And he switches, and he tries to say that like to call people like, this is something that you can experience too

where he's like, you would never be the same when you call on Jesus' name. and I think he goes and just like really just talks about like how this is really affected him he's like he's like he opened up my vision giving me a revelation again this this light and darkness the idea of being able to see you should again think about the blind woman this idea of both in tip of butterfly Kendrick like becoming the butterfly and shedding light the kind of theme of blindness in the beginning of blood and this idea of seeing

and light is all kind of tied together giving me a revelation something of a vision something that I can see that is beyond what I normally see with like out in the world, that there is this way of seeing beyond to seeing what actually things should be. And then he says these lines where he's like, this ain't about a damn religion. Jesus brought a revolution. And these are really critical lines because it's like. Yeah, that line always stuck out to me. It's such a powerful.

And it's interesting. It's the only curse word he uses the entire album. It's a light curse word, but it's the only one. Interesting. I didn't think about that. And it's like, yeah, it's the only one. And I think he's really striking out of this idea that is naturally going to happen and that people are like, oh, Kanye got religious on us.

Like Kanye is like, oh, that's kind of him and his, okay, yeah, maybe he like, he was weak and so he needed like whatever from religion offers and like, and he's showing him once get out to heaven. He's afraid. Like, that's what people think. But then he's like, no, this ain't about a damn religion. Jesus bought a, brought a revolution. And so what's in that, right?

I think, so this actually really captured, but there is a theologian named N.T. Wright. Connie might have read this person. He's a very famous theologian, and I know Connie has done a lot of studying. So I wouldn't be surprised if he's read this book, but there's a British kind of Anglican theologian named N.T. Wright, who wrote this book that is called the day the revolution began, reconsidering the meaning of Jesus' crucifixion. And essentially, according to the summary, in particular lines within the book, it says that, like, Wright argues that Jesus' death on the cross was, not only to absolve us from our sins, it was actually the beginning of a revolution, commissioning the Christian faithful of the followers of Jesus into a new vocation, a royal priesthood to be able to act as the intermediaries between God and humanity and creation, responsible for restoring and reconciling all of God's creation.

And so that whole book and that idea that I think is getting at there is the idea that it's not about this idea of me. I just need something to kind of get through my day or something like that, I needed something to do on Sundays or like I need to kind of get away from all this. It's the idea of like him realizing that like what Jesus was talking about is a revolution that has that has that has implication on how not just individually but society, how we think about society and what we do. How like it's it's very political. It's very, it's very social, it's very active.

It goes along with the idea of Jesus as king. Like a king is a political designation. And and not in politics of like, oh, it's about like voting or this. that it's about how is each person have the ability to rule and actively in their life and whatever is in within their graphs to be able to create more goodness in the world, to be able to

bring about more life for people. And it's really, it's seemed to be really, really, really on his heart. And if you read the interview, if you listen to the interviews, I think that's why he talks so much about this thing about, like, him like trying to bring jobs to America and him trying to like, kind of like create sustainable, like

farming. He talks about his like diet. He talks about how he's trying to like get, trying to like develop like a hurricane like proof like homes for like Haiti and like and like on the bar and and the rest of the Caribbean. And like he taught he's like trying to make these appeals to like people from MIT to stop working on apps and to work on things that are going to like help like Rob Society. Like it's like he spends more time talking about that in those interviews than he does about anything relating to the music. Yeah.

And I know behind the scenes he's been working for on all that stuff for a while, homeless shelters. Yeah. Yeah. designing those hurricane. I think the domes are the hurricane proof homes. Yeah, so, yeah, I could, I'd ever really tied it into this act or this idea of the revolution that Jesus started. But I see how it, I definitely see how it falls directly in line with everything that Jesus taught.

Yeah. And I think it goes right on to the next lines where he's like, all the captives are forgiven, time to break down all the prisons. Yeah. right and this is he's been mentioning this all the time to talk about slavery captivity and he'll specifically talk about um like how like one and three are locked up he'll talk he'll mention the 13th amendment so many times the 13th amendment like abolished slavery but like kept it for those that have committed crimes right and what he's talking about is the idea that we there's prison reform

it's like we need to change how we think about humanity we need to free we need to we need to change things so that we can destroy these prison and this this industrial complex like it is it's very active in the world what he's talking about. And again, it goes back to what Jesus read when he opened in Luke 4 when he opened about, read the scroll from Isaiah and talked about, he's like, the Spirit is upon me to declare the good news to the poor to release the captives. Yeah. That he's tying that the essence of the good news, the essence of living in the gospel of being kings like Jesus is freeing people from bondage, including within the prison system. Yeah. Sorry, this is all like, I'm taking this all in. It's like kind of blowing my mind right.

to be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah. So he's talking about that. And it doesn't end with them breaking down the prison because then you get, that doesn't solve all the problems. That's why he kind of goes on and he,

and he says every man, every woman, there is freedom from addiction, right? That is not just you need to tear down these walls because then like they're going to go out, are they going to get back in society? Are they still drug addicts? Are they still addicted to sex?

Are they still addicted to other things? Like, he's like, we need more than just like plans that like get rid of the prison population. We need to fundamentally give them the way to reform their minds to be able to teach them, to be able to let them be free from, like I was addicted. Like we need to make these people get free so that they can reenter society and they can live in peace with us and things can be good. Yeah, I mean, it's actually it's the same idea Kendrick is talking about in Dam where I feel like, well, even just the juxtapisition between Tipibba Butterfly and Dam where he has said, Depimba Butterfly was how to change the world and looking outward for the solution, which is, I would say in terms of Kanye's vision here, it's like that is the stuff about the 13th Amendment.

That's the more political, social reforms that we need to do as a society. But then he shifts here, just like Kendrick does on Dan, where it's also this internal battle where you need every man, every woman, there's freedom from addiction where we personally need, not only societal, but there's this personal requirement to free ourselves from addiction. it seems like both Kanye and Kendrick see that as that solution being Jesus and God. Yep. Yeah, and it's interesting how then that goes into

this idea, he says, Sunday service on a roll, God is our given right, God is our God given right. Yeah. Jesus won the fight. And it kind of frames like what he's doing. Like what we talked about with the farming and the domes, but also how we've used Sunday service. Yeah.

Yeah, that's his way of being king, right? That's his way of learning how to rule and creating these space for people to heal and to understand life and to think. And he sees that as his primary calling, I think. And it's tying into that. He's trying to explain what that's about why he's doing that. And he talks about interviews, like him kind of revolutionizing the church experience. And he uses his daughter a lot to exemplify how excited she is for every Sunday. And it kind of compares that with the current.

current standard of the church experience. Yeah. And it does seem like he, he calls himself now a Christian, what does he call it? Entrepreneur. Christian innovator, yeah. It seems like that is what he views his role

on in society now rather than probably a cultural innovator, which is probably what he saw himself as before. Yeah, I think, yeah, he says he's no longer an entertainer. I think that's also what it gets into like, this is a mission, not a show. That Sunday service isn't a show. it's not for entertainment. It's, it's a mission, this larger thing, again, to restore to free the captives,

right? And it's, it's, that is, like, the good news mission, right? And that's what that is, like, that it's about, like, it's about souls, his own soul. And I think others, it's about his kids, his wife. It's about family, about their protection and this, all this Noah imagery to as well, like, saving his family, like, from the storm of, like, destruction. And he talks about the idea that, like, this is my God-given right. And just within that, like, I hear so much of, like, of, of, like, the Declaration of Independence about, like, you know, we hold these truths to be self-evident that we are all endowed by our creator with like certain uneneliable rights, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.

And that being said to like people using that to focus on their own individual happiness or their own individual right to have a gun or their own individual rights to do this or to have this thing or to have whatever it be. And then being like, no, like God is my God-given right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That like that like this like, again, it's back to everything. We have everything we need.

Like we need you, that kind of thing. and that this individual happiness, he's individual actors, is not going to actually solve, like it's not going to get to the point where we actually need to be. We need to think about ourselves collectively and us in the light of who God is

and that is what he holds onto and that can't be taken away, which means that he doesn't need to like, you know, go and like, buy a whole arsenal of like of guns. It means that he doesn't need to go and be the thing that I need to go and like charge, and I need to go and like have really bad business practice

and charge so much and think that it's me protecting my family. that like we have God, we have everything we need. My heart is rich. My heart is famous. All right. Well, it's, and it's interesting to note too,

like since that turn in everything we need, second verse, we've had water and we've had God is. Both of them, very pure expressions. You know none of that residual pride seems evident in these two songs that follow that turn.

But then we do get hands on, which I feel like. Yeah. Interesting song, huh? Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, because I would say, well, right before this, I kind of saw something interesting, but we could talk through. But yeah, so it starts out at least some of that residual resentment seems to creep back in. Yeah.

And that's pretty prominent throughout the first verse. Yeah. And I'm going to summarize here, but, you know, I think the most potent line is the one about Christians judging him, being the first ones to judge. him. It definitely stands out. And kind of questioning him and his authenticity and his, and his, is genuineness in this space now. Yeah. But then, you know, so I was wondering, like, why would this creep back in? But yeah, well, let me get your thoughts on that and then we'll move to the second verse. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So it's interesting. The song, again, you still see a lot of the like core themes really early on. So, so he talks about cut

cut out all the lights, he's the light, which I think is a reversal of all the lights, right? All of the lights, all of the lights. Turn on the lights in here, baby, extra bright. I need you to see this. But now it's like he turns all that and like God is like the light and is the one that is able to shine in like darkness. You have that. There's this interesting thing where he starts talking about like kind of police harassment and about being like the brights, the lights are into the bright lights of like police beams and like him getting stopped and like that kind of thing. And this idea of hands then become like him, like police telling him to put his hands up.

And there's like the police putting their hands on him to search him. It's this kind of like people don't, like he's not trusted. And people are kind of like are trying to kind of search him. So it's this kind of more negative view of like him hands up and then like and there's him kind of being searched. But I think it kind of ties into this image that he's painting with with I think what he thinks is like the Christian backlash that he's going to get. And so I think so what's interesting, right? So he's like, he talks about how he how he wants to do this. He's like, and then people essentially seem to ask him or he's asking himself, like, what have you been hearing from the Christians?

And he's kind of like saying this thing, which is like maybe true, but he's like pointing it out. He's like, he's like, yeah, they're going to be the first one to judge me. What's interesting is that it doesn't lead him to kind of aggression. It doesn't lead him to being like kind of like acting like in ways that are clearly unchrist-like like he did with his dad. It's very much a thing of like, it's this pain thing. Like you hear this pain like, like, feeling like nobody like, you know like nobody loved me. I feel like I'm in the dark. Like he's been cast back out into the darkness

after like about God being the light. It's this really sad thing of where, where, where I think, yeah, it's, I think really heartfelt sadness more than his anger or pride

or blaming them really even. And he'll talk about that later. And that's what I say is I think if you read it and when I first heard it out, I really felt he was complaining. I think that might, there's maybe a little bit of layer into that, but I think the overwhelming thing

if you really read it is that it's this sadness that acknowledging the fact that this is going to be case and we can say that yes, for like a large number of Christians, this actually is the case. And he almost had to include it to be able to address that on the record. Yeah, well, and it's interesting to me because like, yeah, he sets all that up in the first verse and the chorus.

But then this is, and I'm going to read basically the entire second verse here, because I do think it shows this humility now. And the turning point of the song is, I feel like the last couple of lines. He says, I deserve all the criticism you got. That's all the love you have. that's all you got. To sing of change, you think I'm joking. To praise his name.

You ask what I'm smoking. Yes, I understand your reluctancy, but I have a request. You see, don't throw me up. Lay your hands on me. Please pray for me. Hold myself on death. Hold it down. All falling down.

Somebody pray for me. And that to me is a shift in attitude for sure. Totally. Yeah, comparing it to, what's the name is? the song he's arguing with his dad. Follow God. Yeah. Super big shift.

It's this very humble act of just, please pray for me, like layer. And then that's a shift of what hands-on means. Where hands-on was this more, like you described with the police touching him, being hands-on and this more sinister kind of view of what it means to have someone to have your hands on you.

And he's asking all those people to shift that. to shift that meaning. And rather than lay your hands on me, and aggression, lay your hands on me. It's like this weird, like, this physical touch thing

and this, this humbly asking for a prayer. To me just seems like, just a huge shift. Yeah. Yeah. And it's important context here is that, so this is an important part of,

many expressions of Christianity, particularly within evangelical tradition. And I think going back to the New Testament, is it's very common as a form when you pray for someone to put to lay what's called laying hands on them to like hold them or touch them and this idea that this kind of energy that the spirit that like this encouragement is is kind of going through like laying their hands on them and then praying and praying for them so it's a sign of and this often you often see this happen where there's like several people

like a crowd of people gathered around a person like a group of people to like lay to like to hold them to put their hands on them and pray for them it's like it's this physical sign of surrounding and embracing and sending forth like a particular person. Meanwhile, it's also hands up. His hands up to God. Father stretched my hands to you asking for help, but also this kind of idea by asking for help, like, it's this sign of humility of like I don't have it, like opening my hands up, like, I can't do anything about this.

And I'm looking kind of up and recognizing his own fault, recognizing that there's reason for him and doubt, it's such a big shift. And it, where like I think if you only focus on like the Christian to judge me and you think that that's the end of the statement. That's not. He's, it is, it's a factual statement that he's, that he's, that he's actually able to show that like, I really acknowledge this and reckon with it. And because of that, I'm going to lower myself to you people, because that's what I need to do. And it's what I really deserve to do. And I really ask you, even if you dislike me before, please lay your hands on me, we gather around me like you're supposed to be doing in church

and pray for me because I'm in this place where like, I have all this power and influence. I don't know what to do with it, right? And I need you to be surrounded because after all, what, we are soldiers. We are soldiers, not I am a soldier. And no soldier defend themselves with the shield by themselves. There's this idea that there need to be surrounded, which I think is the idea of laying your hand in surrounding is being surrounded and having hands and kind of joining together in this kind of this consolidation and like becoming what people are supposed to be together, becoming humanity, joining together and lifting up those who might have fallen before. Yeah. So this leads us into use this gospel, which I kind of view this, or at least I'm at this point,

only a week out of the album, but it kind of seems like a narrative summation of the album journey. I'm just going to read The Hook because I do think it's kind of like a really encapsulates the album as a whole. It says, use this gospel for protection, which seems to tie back into this idea of soldiers and even more so now that I heard you describe how it's described in the Bible and using God as armor and shield and having sword. it's a hard road to heaven acknowledging kind of what he just talked about really on even the previous song but also on the the whole first half of the album we call on your blessings basically kind of giving up that that control of his own life and handing it over to God and then in the father we put our faith which just yeah I mean that just really stood out to me as kind of yeah really encapsulated the journey we just kind of experienced um

Yeah. So obviously the kind of the biggest headline from this song is the reunion of clips. Yep. Which I think probably most people are familiar with. I don't know if we really need to get into a lot of detail. But essentially, you know, Mal, it's Pushatian Malice's clips. Males for a number of reasons, ended up leaving the group and really committing to his faith and has only since made Christian music, correct? Yes, that is all he's done. And he changed, and he changed his name to no malice, which you pointed out was kind of related to a Bible, a Bible passage. Is that correct? Yep. Yeah, yeah, removed from you all malice. Sure. So we get the, well, we should also, yeah, you have in the notes, it's kind of a reverse, you see it as a reversal of runaway, which I didn't think about.

I definitely noticed the similarities of production, or at least in that kind of single key piano line. Yeah, that's a big part of it. appearance of Pusha T who is also on Runaway. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to just frame the song's structure and then I'll let you kind of riff on it. But essentially we have that hook, which we already read, and then Pusha T comes in. We get the hook again and then we have Malice. And I feel like malice on a production level and even a thematic level is really, you know, Connie is known to use his guests as characters and his narratives. He's talked about it. He's talked about it.

about it. Other people have talked about him consciously doing that. I feel like this this juxtaposition between push a tea and and no malice is definitely saying something here. I think it's also malice's verse, the production shifts. If you notice, the choir, everything drops out but the choir and it's the first time that we hear women voices who sing in a higher register. So it becomes this really brilliant, very powerful moment of the album. I think it's, at least on a production level. It's the climactic musical moment of the entire album. Totally. And malice kind of confesses his sins. I haven't really wrapped my head around what push a T is saying. So maybe you can unpack that if you have a thought, some thoughts on that.

But yeah, let's talk about, let's talk about that. Then we'll talk about like Kenny G. coming in. So yeah, let's talk about the juxtaposition between pusha T and no malice. Cool, yeah. So I'll give you a bit background because I started to understand this differently when I looked at the background. So, yeah, so clips, right, they are, they're kind of drug dealing rappers, like they rap, they rap all from the start about selling cocaine. Big hit song to start with was grinding, about grinding, selling cocaine, hustling, patty cake, patty cake, I'm the baker's man, selling cakes of cocaine and things like that. And so that was, that was Malice's line. And so what goes, they go back to, they were selling cocaine before they got a major

deal. What's interesting was that there was some point where I think Malice picked up one of his friends who just got out of jail and they were planning to like sell milk cocaine and some woman drove by got out of her car and started talking to them about jesus and really similar to good kibat city like i'm like you think about me i'm dying of thirst and basically like starts telling him with jesus they kind of argue with others say this doesn't make any sense and so they've talked to it but he like they like they actually get like somewhat convinced by this and like essentially like say the sinner's prayer which is the same prayer that says on uh yeah the same prayer says yeah exactly Exactly. So then they, and basically acknowledge Jesus is Lord or kind of Lord of his life.

And then, but then he kind of like doesn't really pay any attention to it. He doesn't live by it. He keeps on selling cocaine. He gets like a rap deal. They get famous. They kind of like live it up. You know, they bring along their crew together. Things are going good. What happens eventually, I can't remember it was like 2008 or nine or somewhere somewhere around that time, late 2000s. Their manager who would come up with them, he gets busted by the feds. And they discover that their manager, Anthony Gonzalez, has like a $20 million. drug enterprise selling like cocaine and heroin and all these other things. Dude gets locked up for like 30 years, like 32 years sentenced. And then the feds start looking for associates. So they start rounding up other people in their circle. Like other people get arrested, I think. And like in the meantime, they like the like the feds like basically freeze all of their

accounts. And so and there's like word that like they're still looking for two other suspects. So they're getting really stressed. Malice, meanwhile, has been, like, over the time kind of really, like, been kind of more and more guilty by I was living his life. He's married. He's, like, but he's not living. He's very much living like Kanye was the, like, last few years in terms of, like, sex

addiction. And he's smoking a whole lot of weed. He's, like, all things. He's not really being a good father and a good husband. And, uh, and this is kind of weighing on him. And then as soon as this, like, they get like, they're like under the, like, under the, like, potential investigation from the feds. It, like, it, like, burdens him even more.

And apparently there's this moment where they're on a poor, where he, malice on a plane, they're about to fly, they're going to fly to like a next city for a tour, and then Puscher T doesn't get on the plane. Or he's not on a plane, like, or he's not there when, like, now sits down and he's waiting and the plane's about to take off. And like, and then Malice at that time is like, it's super worried. He's like, wait, I think the feds might have gotten, like, gotten and like rated Pusha and like, and like, we're like downward.

So he was like really weird. And then like, because like Pusha is never late to things. And eventually Puscher gets on the plane at the very last minute. But like, that scare and the fact of realizing what could it be, it was. like his last moment where he's basically, I'm not doing this anymore, I'm not doing this. And so that's when they split. And basically, that's really the moment where Malas decided to like kind of give, like, really give his life to give his life over to God to actually live in a way that was going to not be talking about, like not selling cocaine, not talking about it, not creating,

because he realized it was poisonous. He realized it like what damage he had done and what he wanted to do. So that's the historical context. So when you get into him talking about, I think, when you get into him talking about like, in my bed undercovers, undercovers when the undercovers had raided. Talking about that moment. I think it's talking about those moments when they were, they were scared, like the feds were kind of coming for them.

So like look into all the assets and everything. My presence is, yeah, my presence is happy belated. And I think it actually might even be that moment on a plane where like malice is kind of, it's like the juxtaposition, it's like the critical moment for malice where he's like, where pushty's late,

but that really like just sets it off for malice where it's like we can't be living at the edge of like destruction like this. And so, yeah, so you talk about that, the idea of kind of like saying it's real, this idea of like them, their assets being kind of like looked at. But him still like, A, like, it doesn't matter. Like, he acknowledges his own crookedness, but doesn't really feel like he can change it. It's kind of where you kind of have it. So he kind of still ends kind of where you left him on the plane that he's still living

in this way, even though his brother has like turned and like left this lifestyle. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, okay. So just to make it clear, you're seeing this as a commentary because they haven't been together since that plane ride. Yeah. So this is now the first time that they've been together and they are acknowledging that moment and where their lives have gone basically since that moment. Exactly, yeah.

And they're friends. They still hang out. They like made like push. Malice like actually made a documentary called like The End of Malice, which actually tells a lot of this backstory. So they've been friends, but like Malice has refused to work. with push on anything that like pushes wanted to work on. And so that's why they haven't made any clips albums or, um,

or anything. So yeah, so I think that's, that's what's kind of going on. And you're seeing this juxtaposition of these two brothers. Because then malice comes up and like, you see that like pusha, he talks about these things.

He kind of just talks about them as if they happen. He knowledge just kind of tells his kind of stories and he acknowledges his crookedness, but that's kind of it. And it's really this contrast with malice who is, who confesses like his sins, right? He's like a lot of souls like a damage though.

Like he's like he's thinking about all the people he sold cocaine to. Everybody that he talked about it that went and sold cocaine afterwards and now he like ruined families like those way on him, right? And he's like and he talks about like selling things and in my arrogance I took a camera pose like he's like trying to like he's like taking selfies of himself like so like happy and proud that he's like making money and like selling stuff or like telling people to do that talking about it. And then he's like caught in a trunk with Barry Manilows. So Barry Manilow is like an adult contemporary singer. And then O's is like a slang for ounces OZ of cocaine. So he's like caught with the trunk of Barry Manette. So he's trying to drive like cocaine through, uh, through Virginia Beach or

Virginia or wherever and then like he gets caught. And then of course he's going to get arrested. That's why the next line is they sing a different tune when the Slammer close. Slammer being the prisons, sing referring back to Barry Manilow. So great couple lines there. And he says like from the concrete grew a rose, which is a reference to Tupac. I think he might have actually written that while he was in prison. I'm not sure not, but like that's wrong that era.

So that's a Tupac. of quote, the idea of life coming out from like this hardness from the concrete of prison, from like this kind of death and destruction and like being paved over, that out of that somehow this kind of rose and beauty can kind of come out. And then and then to the end where like, where it ends with like, just hold your brother when his, just hold on to your brother when his faith lost, right? And he's talking about pusha, right? In terms of pusha, this kind of person that is still in his crookedness. And it just feels like he can't leave or doesn't want to leave and he's holding on to him.

And he's like, I'm holding on to you just like I held on to Kanye. Yeah. Who has come around. Actually, Pusha T has also my brother. Pusha T and Kanye have a song called Hold On on Pusha T's album. Yeah. So. Yeah.

And it's, and it kind of, I saw it as kind of relating to this idea of hands on that comes. Exactly. This next thing. Yep. Right. Totally. Totally. Just like that reversal of,

of the. way that yeah, hands-on in an aggressive way or hands-on in terms of like asking for prayer. And it seems like, I mean, this is really the last, I would say that's like kind of like the last line of the album. I mean, we're going to get into Jesus' Lord, but it feels like this is kind of a very considered and perfect way to end this kind of journey that's unfold. And then we get this beautiful sax solo from Kenny G of all people, of course. Yep. And it's this very

I feel like very climactic moment of the album where we get this single sax solo which I'm sure you can think metaphorically and I haven't really thought about it too hard of what that could kind of represent and then we get the drums come back in I feel like this is like the most cinematic maybe aside from Sala

but it's really a very dramatic moment in the album. This whole song is I think pretty incredible so let's get into wrap it up with, of course, Jesus is Lord, which I didn't know, but you pointed out was a quote from a letter from St. Paul. Is that correct? Yep. Yeah, correct. St. Paul, St. Pablo. There's a theory out there that the life of Pablo is actually based on the story of St. Pablo. Yeah, inspired by. So if you can give us some insight to that letter, that'd be great.

Yeah. Okay, so a couple of things here. So the idea, Jesus is Lord. We talked about Jesus being king. So Jesus is Lord, similar to different statements. Lord, people don't use that very much, I guess in America, maybe in like the UK or something you might use that. But how it's used in the Bible is that. So what happened is like, so the personal name of God, the God of Israel is Yahweh. But what happened is due to somewhat of the Ten Commandments and other things, basically within the practice of Israelite worship, they stopped saying. the name because they wanted to honor it by not saying it and not having it kind of degrade. So what they started doing is they started using the word Lord or I think Adonai in Hebrew to actually refer to rather than saying the name Yahweh. Even when it's written in like this in like the Hebrew scriptures, they don't actually say Yahweh or whatever it should actually be. They say Adonai as in Lord. So Lord doesn't just refer to like it's actually less like earthly political. It's Lord is a way to to talk about Yahweh. the God of Israel.

So what's interesting, it's actually a slightly different. So like to say Jesus is king, so whenever Jesus's king is really about this idea of kingship of earth, of rule on earth, Lord is really this idea of Yahweh, of creating, of the God that's above everything. And so you'll notice it at the first line of this, of the whole,

the very first line that Kanye says at the beginning is God is king, mean the person that God is king. And then here it says Jesus is Lord. But by Jesus saying Jesus is Lord, he's saying that Jesus is God. that they kind of like kind of come together. He's actually focusing. Yeah.

You see what I saying? Yeah. So he's focusing on Jesus' divinity is the focus there and tying it back to God being king. So it kind of works together. And it's this very statement of like Jesus being God and like this being that like this kind of fundamental claim of Christianity of this kind of God and human figure together that that shows us how to rule like God rule. Yeah. That's super clever. So that's what the line itself means.

So that's one thing. But the more critical thing is that, so this is taken from, it's a book called Philippians. And it happens to be the very first hymn that is recorded anywhere that is written to Jesus. So it's really significant in the understanding of theology of like how early Christians view Jesus. It's why it's really critical in a lot of scholarship. And what's interesting is that it's the end of a larger section that is basically retelling Jesus' life as a narrative arc. And in particular, it's looking at it through the lens of humility and showing how Jesus' is, Jesus should be the arc that all other followers Jesus should try to follow.

And so where it comes out from, this is like Philippians too. It says, and this is Paul talking to like a group, a church group of Christians. And he says like that, hey, instead of being motivated by self as ambition and vanity, each of you, in humility, should treat each other better and more important than yourselves. Each one of you should be concerned not about your own interests, but about the the interests of others as well. You should have the same mindset that Christ that the Lord Messiah,

the anointed one Jesus had. And then it goes into this poem, which is the kind of poem him, and it says, who, though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality of God as something to be grass or be taken advantage of.

But he emptied himself. He became taken on the form of a slave by looking like another human, and by sharing his human nature, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death even death on the cross. And as a result, God exalted him and highly exalted him

and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth. And every tongue confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. So if you see what he's doing there, it's like he starts off with the idea of Jesus being kind of God at the beginning, him emptying him coming down, becoming a slave, becoming a human, humbling himself, becoming obedient to the point. point of death all the way down into the grave, into the earth. And then exulting, God then lifting

him up, that, God lifting him up, resurrection, right, imagery, the ascension, living up to the throne in heaven, and giving him this name that is above the name. And a name actually within Hebrew is also how they would another way you could actually interchangeably not say Yahweh is you can refer to him as the name. So he's also, it's another statement of saying that he is God. He is the God of Israel is what it's like saying there. That at the name of Jesus, every, every, every, every, every shout out and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. So it's all of that. So it's about that statement,

but it's larger what it's tied to is this idea of humility. Which is kind of brings us full circle back to the story. We began with King of Babylon. Exactly. Exactly. And what the claim here right is when you look at the two stories, it's like humble yourself or you will be humbled. Which is, I mean, that calls to mind Kendrick's point on damn.

it's like the suffering you can attribute to pride for to all these things that we call kind of fall prey to yeah and yeah either humble yourself i like that like a lot humble yourself or you will be humbled by god i think kendrck definitely on damn at least is very much emphasizing the the ways in which god will humble you um and yeah yeah that that idea is super powerful. But yeah, it seems like, and what Kanye takes from, which you just said, but what Connie takes from that poem is every knee shall bow, every tongue confess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there is this active humility, lowering oneself with a bow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, this is, I'm just taking all this in because, well, one, I'm just crazy. I'm sure every listener

right now. I was really impressed with how much you've kind of dissected this in less than a week. But I also kind of imagined myself listening to this album in your shoes where it's like all these kind of radars or all these bells are going off every time you're like listening. You're all that, that, that, that. I'm sure it was kind of exciting listening to this album and just yeah, just kind of weaving all these connections together. And yeah, it's been super enlightening. And I'm just again trying to kind of take this all in. Yeah, and I think it's also like interesting to note and point out that I was looking through the credits and there's like five to ten. I mean, there's a bunch of producers, but they actually separated it by a lyricist.

Have you looked at the credits at all? I've not actually. There are five to ten writers, lyrical writers of lyrics on every single song. Which, you know, I say that only because it's like we, you just. laid out this pretty complex I wouldn't say narrative but there's a lot of references it does seem to have an arc it does seem to have a very

conscious journey and turning points and all that to say like I know there'd be people skeptical that Connie would be able to do that but he did have a lot of help and I guarantee if we I haven't looked into the writers a lot of them I didn't know

off the top of my head but I I'm going to guess that they have religious ties or spiritual ties or something. And also, I realized both Pusha T and No Malice have writing credits on at least three or four songs. Yeah. Yep. So, yeah, I mean, I think, well, we're, go ahead. It's a very mature, it's a very mature album. It's like very mature.

Like, this is not like, I do not run. It's not like running the mill Christian, like. writing that I run into frequently. It's like it's very mature and it's like theological understanding. It's really our comment and like a lot of these things that I'm explaining I didn't understand like the first like 30 years of my life which was raised Christian and it's it's very very mature like either he himself slash the people that he surrounded himself with they were able to pick out have a very very solid understanding of this the story and this narrative.

It's it's you don't just write. I mean that's that is kind of the narrative some of the narrative around this album is that well there's a lot i would say i would say the more casual listener who doesn't really listen listens mostly for like just just uh entertainment or pleasure like it seems like negative reviews are pretty common um from those kind of listeners which you know that's fine like you know we don't know not all people listen to music the same way but there also is that more cynical perspective of you know, Kanye is just doing this to get back into the good graces.

This is going to be kind of like, he's just using the aesthetics of Christ or of Christianity for, for aesthetic value. It's kind of just like what's catching in his eye at this moment and it's not very genuine. It seems like, I mean,

I'm kind of convinced now how you've kind of broke this down, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts on, if you do think it's genuine, I think I know the answer, but and and the reasons why you would you would think the way you do about it. Yeah. I mean, I personally think it's genuine. I mean, like, you don't, you don't, you don't spend your time and money and effort,

even just bringing people together to, like, put something like this and take such a risk on your career just because you, like, want to get in some good graces. Like, there's no reason you need that. And it's so risky anyway in terms of, like, the fact that it's not a perspective that is shit. by many people. And so, like, many, it might turn away a lot of fans, as I think has already been kind of the case for a lot of people there. So it's just that.

And like, when you see people, like, being able to get to some certain of these ideas, it's like you really, like, you really have to, like, I feel like for a lot of these things, you really have to put aside what you previously think to be able to even accept them and like, and, like, project them. I think that's a big thing.

And it's just like, I don't see anybody just like being, like, you wouldn't put in the work to get the right people to, like, because, Because Kanye is not stupid. Like, and he's, he knows art, he knows kind of history. He's traveled the world. He's seen different expressions of Christianity. His kids were baptized in like an Orthodox church, which is like, goes back to the Eastern

traditions, which are really closely tied to a lot of how this is interpreted. It's very well tied to like a lot of the more original early understandings of Christianity. And like his kids were like baptized in Armenian church, which is related there. And so like you don't like, you've experienced. you just had to expose a lot of that. And like the fact that he would like make a call to pick, because there's lots of ways you can try to explain like God, Bible things. And like, and you can even pick like a really simple or like much less complex one than

this one. Yeah. Because it's very complex. And it's like, it's very well tied. It's very backed up. There's like solid theological that worked for like decades that like have worked to try to try to express these things this way and like books and stuff like that. And so like I can't imagine somebody doing the work to try to like bring this right thing

and having the right sense of who to trust. because there's so many people that would not explain it this way. And so it's like the fact that you can even discern who to bring on, even if you didn't write this word of this, is like the amount of like to, you don't just stumble into the right people to say something like this. And so like that's one thing. And the second thing that I found actually listening to his interviews,

but sometimes he'll be like, you know, there's still like a lot of these like things of like being proud and arrogant. And then other times when I'm getting upset and angry. But I was really actually impressed with like how much he, as like has formed this pattern. and of like people would ask him things and he would really turn things back to God and turn things to his like limitedness so frequently yeah that was the impression that I got with the interviews there was definitely it definitely felt like someone very much in the process of of discovering this and

stating it as his aim but by no means has reached the yeah uh the potential of that aim I guess um and it seemed like he was acknowledging that because there were definitely multiple times where he would catch himself and you could see it in real time where he would start to go on a kind of more traditional Kanye response and then you'd catch himself

and it would flip and you'd say but it's not up to me, it's on God and then he's like, he's like constantly kind of reminding himself and that was kind of like, yeah, I mean, there was definitely moments in the interviews where I was challenged by the way

that he was even using God as kind of defending his own actions. which I just didn't really sit right with me. But then there were other times where I thought he made perfect sense. And it seemed to really fall in line with this new vision of his life. And so I did, yeah, I mean, I'm like all things Kanye of trying to reserve judgment until, you know, time has passed. And I feel like in a moment, it's so complex. And it's, there's so many things to consider that it's, yeah, I really try to reserve judgment and late things play out.

And also give him the benefit of the doubt that I would imagine committing yourself. to this way of life, not to be easy at all. And it's not like a light turns on. The feeling of the light turning on might be there, but to actually then commit yourself. And then, you know, he's has 42 years of living basically in this one way. Yeah. And then I would say amplified by what is at his disposal at all times.

You know, Kendrick talks a lot about this idea of like your vices being at your disposal a times 100 when you're famous and you have money because you can get literally anything that you want. So if it's sex, sex is at the disposal at all times. If it's drugs, they have the money, they have the resources to feed that addiction. And so I take that in consideration as well. And, you know, what I've kind of, you know,

I'm still obviously wrapping my head around all, not only the album, but just this era of Kanye. Yeah. You know, I think he's trying. That's kind of why I've always given him the benefit of the doubt through kind of his missteps and stuff where it's like I genuinely see someone trying, trying to make the world a better place. And you can argue about like the way going about it or the specifics of that. But like the intent I feel like underneath it all is good. And I feel like this embracing Jesus and Christianity is, it makes sense to me, especially if you like have followed his career for a long time.

like God has been a presence throughout and it'll almost be really interesting to kind of examine that aspect of his of his music from day one and how that's changed and really the pinnacle of that is Jesus I feel like where it is that like he's kind of taking that and there's literally a song called I am a God and it's like that is yeah God it's it's I am a God yeah yeah just like the arrogance of what that means and how that ties into like like the King of Babylon story and all that. But the presence of God has been in every single album. And even in these last couple albums, and they do have arcs and all the most present albums, recent albums. And I was just even listening through this morning, just the latter half of those albums.

And each one of those in the Pinnacle song, he does talk about God in some way. Yeah. And Ultra Light Beam was supposed to be the last song on Pablo, although I got moved to the first, but I can see how that would be the culmination of that journey. So it's not like this is coming out,

all that to say really, this is not coming out of nowhere for him. And it's not like, to go back to your point of it being genuine, it's like, yeah, if it was all of a sudden kind of just embracing this and using the aesthetic, yeah, maybe that would be more suspect. But the seeds have been planted.

I want to say his mom was Christian too. I would have to check on that. but yeah he was and his dad is too as well so yeah he's very much raised in this environment so yeah yeah and his wife even his wife like i mean kim i don't i don't pay attention i don't know what they do but there are armenian and armenia is like the old is one of the i think the oldest christian country in the world yeah it is it's eight it's an ancient christian civility like the king of armenia like converted to christianity like i don't know like the like fourth century or something like that And like the Roman Empire like illegalized it, but they weren't officially Christian until later.

But it's the first like like like Christian country, like the ruler and like the institution started merging within like the church became part of like the like tied and in symphony with the with the government. So yeah, it's long history for whatever that is. It's like it means that like there's like even within Kim's own life and her family like I can only imagine that there are ties. Maybe not even believe in anything, but in terms of like your heritage and your understanding. And like when you go to Armenian go to church, you feel something that like not everybody's going to feel. Yeah. I mean, we did a classic Femian Cole conversation where we shot. I think I wanted to do 45 minutes.

I think we're going on two hours. But now I'm glad we did. I think hopefully if people made it this far, like this for me has certainly been enlightening. I'm going to be listening to the album in a different way now. And hopefully a lot of listeners out there can. also were was there any kind of closing thoughts that you had or do you did we cover all the the aspects nope yeah yeah like i was saying like um it seems like you have i mean if you did this in a week i feel like um you're going to have even more to say months from now and i think you know

asked you this morning if you know this might be your next writing project but i think there'd be some interest in that or um because you definitely have a very unique and very educated perspective on this. And yeah, I mean, I'd definitely be interested in hearing you formalize more thoughts in the future. But cool. Well, I guess we can end it there. I definitely thank you for shedding so much light on it. And yeah, we'll be talking again soon more about damn than Kanye. But yeah, man, that was awesome.