Dissect - BONUS - The Tricky Stewart Interview

Episode Date: July 10, 2018

In this bonus episode, Cole sits down with grammy-award winning producer/songwriter Tricky Stewart. Tricky is responsible for songs like "Single Ladies" by Beyonce and "Umbrella" by Rihanna. He also signed Frank Ocean to Def Jam in 2009 and helped Frank produce his debut mixtape Nostalgia, Ultra. For more bonus episodes, listen to Dissect on Spotify. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of Dysect is brought to you by Sonos. Recently, Sonos added a brand new product to their home sound system family. It's called Beam, a smart compact soundbar for your TV. Great for mid-sized rooms and TVs. The Beam is Amazon Alexa enabled for easy voice control and delivers crystal clear, richly detailed sound for movies, shows, and video games, plus music podcasts and more. It's got pretty cool built-in settings like speech enhancement that adds clarity to dialogue,

and night sound mode that allows you to enjoy late-night TV without waking the whole house. And what's more, Sonos Beam is only $3.99. For bolder sound and larger rooms, Sonos also has playbar and playbass. Pre-order Sonosbeam now at Sonos.com and start your home sound system today. Welcome to Dissect Long Form Musical Analysis broken into short digestible episodes. I'm your host, Cole Kushna. As you remember from the first episode this season, Frank Ocean began to be able to his music career as a songwriter in Los Angeles, going then by his given name Lonnie Bro.

You'll also remember Frank was signed to Def Jam as a solo artist after meeting a man named Tricky Stewart in 2009. Well, I recently had the pleasure to visit Tricky Stewart in his studio in Atlanta, Georgia. I wanted to talk to him about those early days with Frank, and what was going on behind the scenes that led to the release of his first project Nostalgia Ultra. But beyond that, I also wanted to talk to Tricky about his legendary career in the music industry. If you don't happen to recognize Tricky Stewart by name, you without a doubt know his work very well. He's a songwriter and producer that worked with everyone from Mariah Carey, Rihanna,

Beyonce, Celine Dion, Justin Bieber. Seriously, the list goes on and on and on. You know that little song, Single Ladies by Beyonce? Or how about Umbrella by Rihanna? That's tricky. He's a living legend that's been working as a producer since he's a teenager, and he's got the plaques to prove it. The walls of his Atlanta studio are covered with awards, a living history of some of the best pop music over the last 20 years. It was really a pleasure talking with Tricky. We cover how he came up in the industry, influential figures in his life, how he wrote like four hit songs in 48 hours, his relationship with Frank Ocean, his thoughts on Frank's new

music, and what he's been up to these days. He's very candid and honest, and he had some great stories to tell. Okay, so without further ado, here's my conversation with the great Tricky Stewart recorded in its beautiful Red Zone studio in Atlanta, Georgia. All right, well, welcome to Dysect. Actually, it's kind of welcome to your studio, but... Welcome to the Red Zone. Yeah, yeah.

Thanks for taking the time to talk to me. Super excited, man. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Cool. Let's jump right in. So I wanted to start just kind of where you were born. So you're born in Markham, Illinois.

Is that correct? Markham, which is a suburb of Chicago. You know, most people that are from Markham would say, or born in Markham would say that they were, they live in Chicago. Oh, got it. But I was born there and grew up in Dalton, Illinois. Got it, okay. And you come from a musical family, right? Yeah, pretty musical.

I guess you could say that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, everywhere I looked in my family was music from my mother and my father to my cousins, to my brothers, to everything around me. Just always music, so. You wrote songs that when you're starting, when you're starting, year 12. I'm wondering how that happens. Is it just because you're surrounded by music girl life is just kind of natural? I think when I started writing at 12, it was more so because that's what my cousin

wanted to do, and we just kind of did everything together. So I think he was probably more interested in it than I was, because I was more on the athlete side and really like playing sports and outdoor stuff, motorcycles and all that kind of stuff. And music was good, but it was just something that, you know, it wasn't like something that I used to spend time thinking about other than just loving it. Oh, interesting. So when did you start taking it seriously? About two weeks ago.

No, just kidding. I don't know. I think I started taking it serious when opportunities started to come from it. And my older brothers really went and started making their way in music. and me at the time I was about 15 years old watching what they were doing they kind of moved out of the house kind of were you know spreading their wings as as young people do and you know they went up you know started going downtown and you know started a company and all that kind of stuff so you know for me at that point it was just kind of like you know they were my brothers were my mentors they're my you know like father figures and

brothers and everything so it was kind of like what they what they always did always look fun as well so i'd had that i've been playing in church been playing sports and doing it all but at the end of the day like music was just something that came very very natural to me uh just because it was given to me in such a young age yeah yeah so um when did luel silas enter into your life it seems like when you met him that's kind of when well lul silas is um my favorite A man NR of all time, my favorite executive, music executive of all time. I actually started working with him because my oldest brother, Lainey, is a producer as well. And Lainey is one of my mentors as a producer and really got the thing started for us in the record business. And through that,

his relationship of breaking into the business in his own way, through getting a publishing deal in a traditional way, he had started getting really big executives to pay it attention to him and Lul was one of those executives that and I believe he was the first executive to ever fly to Chicago to really take Aaron Hall who was scorching hot at the time and put him in the studio with my brother and that was a big deal because Teddy Riley was obviously king at that time they had just split and the respect that he had for my brother Lainey kind of let him go well this is Teddy and he's king and we think the cheer of the guy that can make the Aaron Hall album.

And that was kind of a really big deal for us at that time. Okay. So how do you go from Chicago? So that was happening in Chicago, right? Yeah. So then how do you get to Atlanta, which you currently, you know, kind of set up your roots here and really start to take off? Well, what ended up happening was I went out to, we went out to Los Angeles. We moved.

I was 17 years old at the time. and left school, had started working downtown with my brothers, and my brother was getting really busy. So we went out to L.A. We moved. And from there, we spent about two and a half, three years out in L.A., working on just different projects. You know, my career is semi-taking off, but I'm getting opportunity, but not really delivering on anything in a massive way. you know but at the same time i am a working producer so and you're how old at this time 17 17 and 18 you know i'm i'm doing brandy's first demos i'm doing immature's first album things like that you know what i mean so things are things are going well um well enough to take care of myself so that we're good you know but with that being said um you know what lul

silas was doing that really led me to the love of l a and baby face in LA and Babyface and also Jimmy Jammy Terry Lewis and at that time they were starting LaFace Records in Atlanta and that's kind of how we ended up in Atlanta because through this girl named Tyvie Turman

man what was I doing? I was doing her album she was in a group called Black Girl and Black Girl was signed to Joel Katz's company here that he had started in Atlanta and her and Tony Braxton were roommates and she was singing Demi

for LA and Face. I was making records for her and her on her solo project in LA or her group project. She came back telling LA about this producer that she had met that she was working with and she was

really super passionate, thought we were super dope at that time. It was tricky and Sep, which is also my cousin. And we came down here, L.A. Curtis, brought us down here immediately on her recommendation. and we got in there

and the relationship started hot and heavy and it led to a great relationship that we still have with L.A. and Babyface to this day, but it all really started because Tyvee was so passionate about playing our music for L.A. And L.A. heard it and identified with it. You know, and this is before we could even record our songs.

We had to sing our songs live. You know what I mean? So there was no demo. There was no demo. records it was like i sat in a truck you know from my first meeting with l.a in front of the uh four seasons and i had me and my cousin had to sing him the song and that song ended up giving us the life that we have here in alana which is the studio that you um are in right now was built that year from that song crazy what song was it it was a flop it was calm it was a

It was a, I can't remember it. A little something. It was a little something. It would fit now. Yeah, but no, you know, at that time they were building the company and we were just kind of like, yo, we'll move, but what are we moving to? Yeah. You know, and my brother, Mark, who's my manager, was just like, we got to get something. Yeah.

Something that we can't get from being in L.A. Yeah. You know, so when you walk into this building, this 15,000 square foot building, that was the thing that we couldn't get in LA. Oh, so this has been day one right here. Day one. Oh, crazy. Yeah, so all the records have touched this place. Yeah, insane.

That's really cool. Yeah. So it seems like your experience coming up was pretty organic. One thing kind of leading to another, meeting certain people that then introduce you to other people. Was there ever a time where you kind of question what you're doing? Like any low points when you're like, I don't know if this is what I should be doing? No, no. I never questioned myself because it was easier to be a working producer back then if you were good.

I mean, it's a little tougher in today's day because you can be really, really good and not really be given opportunity. But back then, it was so hard to get in the studio first and foremost because you had to know somebody. and if you had to know somebody, you were vetted pretty good about your talent level. So it wasn't as hard to get heard. But so it wasn't a situation where I ever had to have doubt because I was constantly being validated by being able to be a working producer early on in my career, which I know is really challenging to have that attitude right now in 2018. Yeah, it's kind of ironic that it's like,

People are so connected more than ever, but you're saying that it was easier back then. Is that just like a saturation thing? There's just so many people that can make music. Everyone can do music. Everyone can do music. So you're competing against everyone. It's not, you're not competing against 25 camps that have dedicated their life to the craft of making music. And when we came in, that's how it was.

It was 25 camps and we fought it out, you know. And you can win some and you could lose some. but now there's billions of camps, you know, literally. Everyone's making music. You can start your own camp, you know. I guess before kind of the hits started coming, was there any kind of break that you felt like was pretty pivotal, or was it this, what we're in now?

Was it coming to Atlanta starting your studio? Was that kind of when the break, when things started really happening? Well, in a long career, there's a series of breaks. There's the break of, I have some place to, work was huge. Yeah. You know, and that's a break that affords me to be able to stay in this game to this day.

So, like, that is a huge break, right? But the break of having your first hit is a completely different break. Yeah. Of having people want what you do, you know?

The demand, yeah. So, and with that being said, you have to do that ever so often just to let, to keep, make sure that your phone keeps ringing. You know what I mean? It's like you can't rest on what you did before or anything like that.

So when there's lulls, you're always nervous because you're only as good as your last record. So when there's lulls in your career and like I've had one, two and then a third one, but once you know that you're going to work and you're doing the work and you know all it takes is one, you know, and you have all the information of how you got there the last time. It's a much easier process. Yeah. So was the first one JT. Money? Was that the...

Yeah, that was the first one that took the pressure off. Take the pressure off. What does that mean in like practical terms? I mean, there's validation. You know, this is a business that doesn't necessarily have any gatekeepers. So if I said I'm something tomorrow, then I am. You know, there's no one going to come in and tell me that I'm not. So sometimes the validation comes from the awards, from the accolades.

and I think maybe that's why we flashed them so much in ways. But getting your first number one says that you're legit. Yeah. You know, that it says you're legit. So whether it's an American Music Award, whether it's a BET award, whether it's a Grammy, whatever that is, those moments of validation tell every teacher that thought you were kind of crazy because you couldn't really stay focused that, no, I really was right about my plan. Yeah.

So for me, like from the outside, it's one thing to have a hit. you know 1999 but then you know when we get to 2007 2008 into 2010 you had a series of hits and it was I think it was more than hits it was you you defined an era of sound you know there's a five year stretch there where you were just on fire it seems like so what did that start with Rihanna um that actually started just with the collaboration of of dream and I getting in the studio. That was the beginning of two crazy forces coming together at one time and just using a lot of energy and a lot of educated guesses that I had with success and failure. And he doing the same thing. And then us finding a melody that was going to make the world sing for five years or how long it was.

So when does Dream enter? Well, Dream was in, and Dream was originally signed by my brother Lainey, who was working here at the time. So I had a relationship with Dream, but it was more when Dream stopped kind of having his relationship here, that he went and worked with Nivia on a project that they did, and they shot some videos and kind of went at it, renegade style. And I got to hear him unobstructed and kind of what he did on his own. own when he went in the studio. And I was really, really attracted to that sound and those records and the energy that I thought that they were bringing. And it just kind of led me to kind of going to him one day and going, hey, like, this track

right here, next time you go in the studio, just, I don't know what that thing is that you do, but just try doing it over some chords like this. And that's kind of how I felt it out for a while. And like, you know, just because I was kind of locked in mentally on what I was doing. And he was around and he was really, really good and had a lot of energy. And then when we got in and one day, he, myself and Kukh, Karel, my cousin, my other cousin, came to the studio. I don't know why we just said, you know, we need some new vibes. let's come up to the studio

early for a couple days just the three of us we closed the studio there was no one here and we just wrote and the first I think the very first song that we wrote was Suffocate

by Jay Holliday which ended up being I can't breathe when you're touching me which ended up being you know a really big record for us I'm thinking it went to number two We won the pop chart and did really well on Urban, but was really surprisingly strong on the pop chart.

And then we wrote Umbrella. So we got here at like 7 in the morning to write, and by 9.30, we had written those two songs already. Oh, crazy. Those are the first two out of the gate? Those were the first two. Wow. And from that point, we just kind of looked at each other

and was like, because this was our first time ever really, like getting in a room and even though we kind of worked in this the way the studio set up we kind of worked in this cross-pollinating way of where all the rooms were connecting

at that time and we just kind of looked at each other and was like I don't know if we can let anybody come back in here for a while so then we closed the studio again and we just kept writing and we kept writing and kept writing making like classic records

in 15 minutes. You know what I mean? So this is a whole other level of like creativity that's just happening all at the same time. That's amazing. That was a great, great time. Yeah. So when did you get into AR work, A&R work?

I've always been to A&R. Yeah, okay. I just let other people put their name on it. I mean, no, I mean, if you're the producer in a sense, I always feel like you are in A&R. and A&R is just something that I've always looked at myself as being, you know, I've been since the very beginning, if I've ever had a deal, you know, if you look on the back, it's always executive produced by me, you know, which to me is really A&R. It's not really about the song. It's about the whole thing, you know. So, you know, I've always done it and I was afforded the opportunity to go do it for real. real with LA over at Epic when he started Epic Records. And that was a cool experience as well.

So did Def Jam, A&R for Def Jam come before Epic? I was never an R for Def Jam. Oh, you weren't. Okay. No, I was a consultant. Okay. And pretty much, you could say I was an A&R because if I have the whole Mariah Carey album, I got the whole Frank Ocean album, I got the whole dream album.

It's like I had, and I'm basically handling. the biggest songs on, you know, Rihanna, I'm doing Justin Bieber, I'm handling your new stuff. You know, we're doing, I am the A&R. Yeah. I just don't want to come to the meetings. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. So when I was doing some research, I came across this interview in 2010 that I wanted to read

you a little quote from. It was from the Division of Georgia Tourism. It was like this really small website. but they asked you any up-and-coming artists you're working with that we should keep our eyes out for and you said, quote, one of my favorite new talents is this guy, Lonnie Bro.

He's really great with a style somewhere between Maxwell, Robin Thick, and Kanye West. He's this fresh, young, 21-year-old hip-hop poet with an amazing singing voice and he blends all these different styles seamlessly, which I thought was really interesting because this is pre, nostalgia ultra

so I guess that's my segue into when was the first time you heard the name Lonnie Bro Um Don't get me to line Because I lived in a haze back then But I know there's

My brother Mark Stewart and Tab Brought me Lonnie Bro Okay And after that like the only thing that I remember I was doing Mariah Carey's album and I was doing a film with Christine Aguilera at the same time.

Okay. They brought me Lonnie and I heard his music and I was just like, oh my God, like, I was like, this is something I've not heard before. And I believe. that they brought him to me for a writing session. Like, you need to write with this guy. Yeah. And I just, I met him.

I was super busy and I was super like all over the place mentally. And I, the one thing that I could just get out, like, in all the confusion was, I want you to be my artist. I love what you do. The only thing is I just never want to hear anyone ever trying to sing your songs. Yeah. And that was my thought process on that. when I heard him sing, I felt like any time, if you can imagine hearing a Marvin Gay demo

and letting and hearing another artist sing it, that's what I thought, Frank Ocean Demos would sound like forever. Do you remember the songs that were on the demo or they kind of never seen the light of day? I remember them quite well. There are some amazing songs that, I mean, some of them he gave away. Okay. You know, and they sound like trash. compared to what they're supposed to sound like, you know?

Yeah, so a couple of things on that. I guess this is the obvious question, but I'll ask it anyways. What about hearing him sing his own songs made you realize that you wanted just him to sing his own songs? And I guess the second part is like how did not everyone else not hear that? Because it seems like it would be obvious to like someone like me or anyone that loves Frank Ocean. But at that time, why do you think that didn't translate?

Well, I think most people are in such a hustle to try to get something that's quick. And there's a lot of people that say a lot of words, but there's very few people who sing from their soul. And when you watch people that sing from their soul, they always win. But most people can't see that because they're always looking for what can help them next. At that point, at that point, I didn't need the next thing that was going to help me next. I had Mariah Carey. Christine Negleran and the other thing. So I knew he was singing from a place of what I was watching them.

And my radar was very high because I was just around it every day. Yeah. You know, like you have different periods in your life. But when you're around Mariah Carey, when you're around Lina Richie, when you're around Whitney Houston, when you're around, like, you know, Sleen, like the company that I was keeping at that time, like from Katie to Frank. to dream to to yay to be to read like I'm just feeling an ultimate feeling of what it takes to win because I'm just around it all the time so when somebody comes in when somebody walks in

with it the same people know it it's like when somebody they don't even hesitate the biggest artists in the world are the first ones to let you in when they know you got it you know what I mean yeah that's why I'm not trying to capitalize yeah that's why even if even if even if if you look it back, like as soon as nostalgia ultra came out and Frank Ocean came out, two days later he took a picture in the studio with Beyonce.

Nobody else takes pictures in the studio with Beyonce, but she knew what it meant. Yeah. Because she's smart. She knew what it meant for the association at the time. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

No, that's great. I'm curious if you had any other songwriters that you heard them perform their own work and felt the same way. What's the question? Is there any other examples like Frank, where you heard the songwriter

perform his own music and then you're like why are you songwriting? Why aren't you Is there any other artists that you've had that experience with? Yeah, Dream. Okay, yeah. I mean, it's connected to the soul. Like, he's all fucking encompassing, confusing, beautiful and nasty all at the same time.

Yeah. You know, he's like, the dream is a great fucking roller coaster of a fucking time. Artist, yeah. Yeah, like he makes dope fucking records. You know what I'm saying? So, it's like that's what I like these guys make roller coasters like emotional roller coasters and that's what I'm that's like what I fuck with yeah yeah definitely so I was

reading that you're pretty close with I guess we'll call him Lonnie after signing you signed him to Def Jam yeah so what is that were you kind of showing him the ropes or like what does that mean were you guys just hit it off as good friends or was there a little bit of mentorship going on too? I don't know. I just knew that, you know, from my perspective, right, I just vibe with people and I work with a lot of people. But I don't vibe with everybody I work with. There was just something that about him that I vibed with that I thought when I'm doing something cool, I want him to see it. Yeah. I don't do that with everybody I work with, but if I'm doing something that I think somebody could appreciate, like, I'm like, let me show you this. Yeah.

Because this might, like, I took him to the Chatei concert. He'd never see. seen shot eight before. Yeah. Like he like fucking bugged out. Yeah. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like for everybody else, it's like, I don't need to, you know, like, you know, I took him to see like dope designers and I want him to show him my man Thomas Shoes like art

studio. Like where he could just be like, oh, okay, this is this is where it's at. You know what I'm saying? So it's like he's, I knew that he had the capacity for the art form and its fullest. You know what I'm saying? Most people just want to sing the songs. Yeah. So it sounds like you just knew that right away, first time you heard him.

Yeah, he's just, I'm really attracted to people with intellect and his intellect through conversation. You know, the reason that we talk about him is just because it requires thought, just to even think what he's thinking. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah, interesting. So nostalgia ultra, you produced Nova Kane.

Was that the first session that? that you had with him as a producer and artist? I think so. Yeah. Is there anything that stood out from those sessions where you, that were different from others that you've had? Or? Yeah, I mean, our session was super meticulous.

You know, Nova Kane, I don't know how long we worked on it, but it was a long time. He was in this room right here. I was in the room across the way. He would write. I will produce. I was sent it to him. He would write.

I would produce. I was sent it to him. He would write. I would produce. And we just kept challenging. That's why this song just keeps changing and evolving because we were kind of doing it, like, in real time. And that was one of the few times that I got him down here in Atlanta.

Looking back at Nostalgia. I'm kind of curious to see, like, you know, some good amount of time has been by since the release of that. Where do you see that? What does that project represent to you to Frank Ocean's legacy? I mean, that project is a classic. That is, if I have two classics, which I think I do, maybe three. But those two projects, the way that they're put together, that nostalgia ultra in love, hate. I think it's a classic

and I think if it could have been if it could have been released properly I'm pretty sure that wins the Grammy for the album or the year that year I'm pretty sure that happens but it wasn't because

the obstacles we face with the label and the partner and you know so that was that was what that whole issue was but if that record was a commercial release with proper clearance I'm pretty sure you're looking at album of the year. Yeah, I believe it.

What do you remember about the industry's reaction to nostalgia ultra? Because he was relatively unknown at that time. They were giddy. They were giddy. The whole industry was giddy. The calls that I was getting from the people that were calling, every artist that I was working with, when I would come out from working on a session with Frank Ocean,

or if he was in the studio, would be sitting in the lounge. Every female artist. It was crazy. People were just calling me up. I'm like, are you working on the album? Hey, no, I was just wanted to come by tonight. They just wanted to be around.

Yeah, the things, his conversation on that first record struck a chord with a lot of different people, a lot of different walks of life. It's one of the most lyrical albums on Bodies of Work of all times. Yeah. Probably a lot of people just felt like it came out of nowhere. I mean, he just released it on his Tumblr page, no press, and it just kind of had this organic impact that, I mean, really started his legacy. I'm curious, you know, his situation with Def Jam, obviously, it's not a secret, was a little tumultuous.

I'm curious, you know, nostalgia Ultra was like a, I feel like it forced a lot of people's hands. and I think that was probably calculated on his part and maybe partially just he was an artist and he just wanted to get something out. But it really did force Def Jam's hand from an outsider's view. I can't really imagine a lot of artists in his situation, you know, being signed and then being put on the shelf, essentially,

doing a similar thing. Do you think there's many artists that would have been able to do what he did and got him basically forced his way out of a bad situation? With art, essentially? I don't know. I mean, listen, the truth of the matter is no one really knows all the answers to this. We just know the result. And at the end of the day, Def Jam, I think, made a huge mistake.

And that huge mistake, I think is great for Frank as an artist that he was able to, I think by the time of 29 years old, he owned his own masters. He has a lot of great things going for him. But I think it's a huge mistake for Def Jam to let a talent like that walk out of the door because you don't have someone that can walk in the door and make him feel differently. And that's a problem. You know, at the end of the day, it's like, death jam

yeah you made a mistake but people make mistakes all the time you can fix mistakes with money they couldn't fix mistakes with the people yeah you know and that was you know they they had some some regimes it was regime changes too so it wasn't

it wasn't even like it wasn't even like he was dealing with how it started like they weren't there no more you know what I'm saying somebody should have been like you had two regimes and nobody could like reach You got a superstar

And you got Kanye West Like y'all don't know The y'all can't figure out the Frank Ocean language And you got Kanye West come on Yeah It's an easier language So I read somewhere that you You saw his situation with Def Jam as a changing of a guard

Changing of the Guard And the music industry What did you mean by that? I mean like what you see now They can barely get their hands on a star Yeah The real one You know

Because everybody's doing zero 60 so once you decide to sign up for 60 to 100 you know the odds change you're going to pay you're going to pay for that yeah you know and that's why they write big huge checks out here trying to close deals on things that they can't create themselves because the talent level is down got so I wanted to move on to blonde and endless I guess I since we're on the topic so you kind of alluded to Frank was able to negotiate himself out of the contract with Def Jam with the release of Endless, and then he puts out blonde independently. I'm just kind of curious of what your thoughts on that whole.

I mean, at the end of the day, like, I think it's a whole bunch of misplays going on. Like, it's a bunch of misplays. Def Jam is misplaying. Frank is smart and a dick, like, at the same time. So it's like he played them, you know? He really, really played them. And at the end of the day, like, we'll never really know what the full potential of it is because he was at the right label. They just couldn't do the right thing.

You know, like he still needs major promotion. Like, you know, for him to reach the potential that he has as an artist, which I think is unlimited and still not. tapped into, I think he still needs that big fucking nasty machine when it works. And, you know, Apple is Apple, but they can't do that. They can't make you Bruno Mars. They can't, you know what I'm saying? And he's, he's that guy. You know what I mean?

Like, he deserves that. You think he wants that? I don't know. He might be scared. He might be scared. Did you have any early listens to Endless and Blonde? or did you hear it when it came out? I heard a little bit of both.

I heard a little bit of both. I had to think about that. Yeah, after Frank and I and everybody settled, interestingly enough, we never had really been talking through it all. So after the contract was finished, the next day he called me like, yo, you want to work? So we go out there and we work on a couple of records, whatever. nothing of note to really speak on.

Is this New York or? This is L.A. L.A. Okay. And, no, he plays me endless. And then he plays me like, you know, all the artwork and, you know, all the ideas that he had going on with it and shit. And I was like, yeah, this shit's dope. You know what I mean?

Yeah, as a producer, I guess I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the album's production. And especially going from Channel Orange to something like Blonde and Endless. What were your thoughts on the production? My thought on it really is At the end of the day I think Frank needs to let the producers produce In some of these cases A lot of these records I heard the ruffs

And then I hear what Frank does And it's like It's super dope But there's something Like I've heard some different versions of these records And it's like Some of the shit is like It's convoluted because Frank is a classic

Overtinker You know what I'm saying So like Sometimes less is more And some of the time Some of the shit that comes out of his mouth is so so dope it doesn't even really need to be like doesn't need to be done again but he's like so meticulous so like he's so meticulous like like i heard there was 50 versions of white

Ferrari yeah that's crazy i mean he's notorious like you know in l.a like engineers get the frank ocean call they're like oh my god like they want it but it's like you know you might record one line a thousand times okay yeah i've heard heard some stories like that. Like, and you're just like, bro, I don't feel like doing that. That number three was it. It was right there. What do you think that is, just him searching for perfection?

Um, I think it's not knowing who's on the other end of the connection. I think that's where producing really, that's what producing is really brought when you have that trust with that other person. And I don't know, maybe, maybe it's just. an overall insecurity of like taking the takes and things like that or you know I don't know

yeah you have any favorite tracks on blonde or endless no no I like them both yeah um my favorite record that he's done is the one with Calvin Harris oh that's a great yeah

I love that one that's the one that's the one that's the that's the one that sticks out to me like I think you know I'm call me crazy I'm old school yeah I need the records man

I need the records man I need the ones that play on the radio yeah you know like I know that's how I know that shit sounds like old and all that but I'm telling you it's not the best records

truly play on the radio when yeah shit ain't on the radio you don't have one so I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about some of the stuff you're doing today so I thought kind of going through your history

and kind of studying that. It was interesting to me, there's kind of this through line of selflessness. As a songwriter, as a producer, as an ANR, you're kind of, a lot of your job is lifting up other people. And I saw that kind of continue on in what you're doing on social media with, you know,

fan responses with the Two True Tuesdays and then now propping up producers with your playlist on Spotify. The architects. The architects, yeah. Was that kind of that helping of others, something that was just natural to you? That was always something that you were drawn to? I think there's a couple things.

A, like I said, I'm really big in the sports. I play sports my whole life. So I understand the concept of having a good game, yourself individually, and losing because someone couldn't make the last play of the game. Right. And from that, those lessons that I learned is that it's just, it's not important to be, it's more important about the greater good, you know, than the, than just me. So when I don't, when I do things, I don't think about me. I think about us.

You know what I'm saying? And I'm in there. And it's got a healthy portion. But at the same time, I don't want to walk in the door and, you know, not take everybody with me that I think is deserving. Yeah. One of the craziest stories that anybody ever told me was that when they walk into a room, they only think about themselves. That shit was scary to me.

Yeah. So, like, I never want to be that guy. Yeah. So, yeah, let's talk about Tricky Stewart's Presents, the Architects. Yes. Yeah, yeah. What's that about? Hey, listen, my brother told me, we talk a lot about music.

And, you know, we just started seeing all the documentaries and things come out. And he just kept saying to me, like, you know, You know, if we don't tell our story, who's going to tell it? You know, like, you know, and who tells these stories if someone doesn't deem your story to be told? And I was like, man, so crazy because, you know, in all of our discographies, no matter what we do, no matter how many records and how many years or countless hours that we dedicate to this craft, someone is going to take the time to write you a bio that's going to simplify you into three songs. Yeah.

You know, and I just became uncomfortable with that factor. And I was like, you know what? You know, we always want to talk about who is not here and talk about how great they are after they're gone. But I was like, I want to talk about how great people are, why they can hear it. Yeah, yeah. You know, so I started really just thinking about my influences and people who influenced me to make music. And I wanted to make playlists for them. And this whole series has really started out as a reflection of my personal influences.

It doesn't have an order. It doesn't have a pecking order to. I think this person is better than this. It just has to do with who has had influence on my career. And then once I get done with the influence of my career, I'm going to just go to the people that I think are amazing. So with that being said, you know, I'm getting close to the end of the people with my influence. You know, I'm going to do a feature on, I'm going to, like, I wanted to wait.

to really honor the Virginia sound with Timberland and Farrell and Missy and Chad. And I wanted to save like a very, very special place for Germain Dupree, Dallas Austin, organized noise and some of the hitmakers that have come from Atlanta, like the early hitmakers, where people were really truly doing pop, R&B, music, you know, like things that were taking over the world. So after that, the list that I have compiled is like goes on and on and on and on. And then it's never going to end because there's so many great producers that have dedicated their life to this craft. You know, and I'm eight weeks in getting amazing feedback from people. People are already checking in. Teddy's called me, hit me up.

Ronnie Juergens has hit me, Raphael Sadiq. So Quincy actually reached out through email. So it's like... They appreciate it, yeah. Yeah, like people like being honored. And it's something that at the end of the day, you're looking for things that feel good for the spirit. People like to work out.

I like to work out and sing other people's praises. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great way. I think it's a really great way to use today's Spotify platform and the accessibility of music in a really great and positive way and instantaneous. So, yeah, I think that's really cool and I'll definitely toss some links in the dissect stuff to the architects.

Thank you. That would be amazing. Yeah. And then I'm just curious what you're up to these days, just generally speaking. Well, listen, I'll tell you exactly what I'm up to. I came back to Atlanta because Atlanta is right now, obviously we know that the trend and everybody says Atlanta's in a run. But the truth of the matter is Atlanta has never changed since we came here in the early 90s. and it's a lot going on in this city, and there's not a record company in the city. And I'm like, well, if it doesn't get built by someone else,

who's going to build it? I realize that I was the age that I should build it. So I'm here working on an independent record company, content company. So I'm just putting a light on what is going on here at this address for a long, long time that has led to a lot of parties in the world globally dancing, drinking,

having a good time to really dope black music that's not dirty, that's not super, like, not super trendy, but it's just, it's right there. It's what these producers that I'm honoring is what they're made of. So I'm not really focusing right now

on like what the labels did i'm focusing on the men that build them yeah you know what i'm saying so in the in the people that build these these labels have to do with like that perspective that that that perspective of the things that you're dissecting you know like the words like jimmy ivine told me that if you drop something important out of a fucking window it's gonna happen yeah like if it's that good it's gonna happen yeah you know what i'm I'm saying so. Yeah. Yeah.

So, and that's what my experience has been. You know, I have no reason to doubt that. When I've done my best work, this industry, the people around the world, the fans around the world, the artists around the world have rewarded me completely. But when I'm, like, trying to talk myself into something that's not as good as I think, the results are the same. You know, like, you can't talk yourself out of great. greatness. You know, that shit, you got to feel that shit, man. It's got to be, it's got to come from the soul. And that's what rap is really winning. When I was talking about that shit with Frank Ocean about it, the singing coming from the soul, well, this rap shit is coming from their soul.

Yeah. That's how they feel. Yeah. Like it or not. Yeah. They're not prepared to separate with that feeling. Yeah. You know what I'm trying? People are attracted to that feeling too. Yeah. So when you can, when you can deliver that, I'm just not a hip-hop guy like that. Yeah. But Trust me, I'm about to go back into my JT money bag because that's where I was back then when I was like, oh, I'm getting a little nervous because it had been a minute since I had struck something. You know what I'm saying? And I was like, well, fuck it. And then I made those two rap records, that in 456 and had two number ones in a row. Yeah, yeah.

Cool, man. So I wanted to end today with that same question that you're asked in 2010. Any up-in-coming artists that we should keep our ears to you. Well, now that you mentioned it. No pressure. Listen, the truth of the matter is, I'll be honest. I started this journey of wanting to build this independent record company and content company with just one artist in mind. And that artist is Janine the Machine.

And Janine the Machine is the artist that I have right now, right now I have an EP out called High Places. I think she's an amazing talent. I think you're going to see some crazy, crazy shit from her. And she's an intellectual, like, badass woman. And it's amazing. And I wanted one artist. And I ended up with three. Because they were that good.

And sometimes you just can't, I don't want to be Def Jam. You know what I'm saying? I just don't want to be Def Jam. Like, what happened with Frank? That can't be me. Like, I can't have that be my story. So I just realized that I got to get up earlier and I got to go to sleep later, if at all.

But I had to sign Saucito, which is formerly known, the Daniel, but he changed his name, got a new swag, got a whole new project coming out. He's dropping this record called Cabessa, which is like some Spanglish trap meets World. I don't even know. But let's just say we're going to challenge for a classic on the first one. All right.

So I'm really looking forward to that. And then through this damn social media and being active, Michaela came to me. This girl, I started following her on Instagram and just couldn't take my eyes off of her. And her, her and her voice just, it was just moving me through the internet. And I just, you know, I called her and I said, listen, when your spring break comes up, because she's in college,

she's a brainiac too, you know. So I said, when your spring break comes up, you come see me. I called her mom. I said, you come see me. Let's get in the studio. We did four, we did five records, and I promise you four of them are hits. Four of them are hits, and they dope as shit. And I just told them, I was like, I don't even want to touch these records again until I can get you back full time.

I played it from one person. My boy, Zeke, he went crazy for it. Zeke is all over the shit, and he's the only person that I played this shit for. All right, all right. So that's what we're at. Cool, man. Last question. Where's the name Tricky come from?

Hey. Now, listen, we'll give you the version that is out there, right? The PC version. We'll give you the version that's out there. I got the name Tricky from my mother. By the way that I played football, I was really hard to tackle. Oh, okay. I can see that.

Yeah. All right, man. But that's not it. Can we get the exclusive scoop? No, not getting it. It goes back too far. Yeah, yeah. All good, man. Well, I appreciate it talking to you today.

Absolutely. Great talking to you. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. Yeah, appreciate it, man. Tricky Stewart presents the architects. Yeah, we'll drop it. See, man. Appreciate it.

Yeah, man. Absolutely. That was fun. I love talking about all shit. Yeah. Because it takes you back. Yeah, yeah. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Tricky Stewart. I'd like to thank Mr. Stewart for taking the time to talk to me

and the entire Red Zone team in Atlanta for being so hospitable. Be sure to follow at Tricky Stewart on Instagram and check out his Spotify playlist series Tricky Stewart presents their architects. You can find that by searching Tricky Stewart and Spotify. I also have links on my social media. Special thanks to P.K. and Michelle at Spotify for helping put this interview together. Okay, thanks everyone. I'll talk to you next week.