Dissect - Channel Orange | LAST SONG STANDING (E1)

Episode Date: August 1, 2023

Cole and Charles begin their journey to crown Frank Ocean's greatest song of all time by covering the album that made him a star: Channel Orange. The LSS Boyz take us back to 2012 with some album background, quiz each other on Channel Orange facts, and debate what songs should be in contention for Frank's best ever. Official LSS S2 Playlist here. Let us know what your Last Song Standing is from Channel Orange @dissectpodcast and @charlesxholmes. Producer: Justin Sayles Audio Editor: Kevin Pooler Theme Music: Birocratic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome everyone to Last Song Standing. I'm Cole Kushner. And I'm Charles Holmes. And today, we are back with the second season. The artists may change, but our task stays the same. On this show, we argue our way through your favorite artist's entire catalog in order to find their single greatest song, or AKA their last song standing. In our first season, Cole and I spent seven episodes debating Kendrick Lamar's greatest songs. It was contentious, devastating, and emotional. But the L-Double S boys came through the journey. any stronger than ever. And that's why we're excited to launch into a new season discussing one of the most important songwriters of a generation. Frank Ocean. All right, Cole. We had a lot of debates behind the scenes about which artists to pick. Are you as pumped as me that we're doing Frank Ocean? Oh my God. I am so excited. I'm so glad this is the one we landed on. I love his music. I've done a season on him for dissect. People know this. I'm curious to know why you're excited to dissect Frank Ocean. I think every person has an artist that is the artist that helped them come of age. Like when you're a teenager,

this is the music that you're listening to teenage college years. And I think Frank Ocean was definitely one of those artists for me where I had grown up loving R&B artists, but they were my parents' artists or they were my cousins or different people. And Frank Ocean was one where I'm like, no, I discovered him. I remember going on Tumblr. I remember downloading the zip file and putting it on my iPod. So I have that emotional connection to him in a way that I, like, is very, very hard now that I'm 30 to be like, when I hear a new artist, I'm like, this isn't, this is our new artist is mine. This is for the teens. I don't understand this. way too old for this. But for you, Frank Ocean, you've obviously done a great season on him already.

Why were you like, okay, this is the right artist to pick, especially after Kendrick? Yeah, I think for me, you know, what I don't get to touch on for dissect is, one, my opinion, you know, dissect the celebration and analysis. And I'm excited to give my opinions about Frank Ocean's music a little bit more. But I think, like, as we live through the Fink Ocean experience, his last 10 or so years, he's definitely, has, like, one of the most, if not the most interesting career arc that I've personally lived through. It's just so unstandard unorthodox, so unpredictable. We still haven't got the new album. We haven't got an album since Blonde. And so it's just, it's just interesting to watch him move or not move.

And I think kind of going through his discography, going through his history and kind of reliving some of the stuff is super interesting and just kind of trying to figure out a little bit more about him and as an artist. Yeah, I could not agree more. But before we get into the episode, I'd like to welcome you, man. You're part of the ringer Laughamillion now. I know, it's official. It is official. Facebook official. Dissects now a part of the Ringer podcast network.

Um, it's really cool. I mean, I've been working with you guys behind the scenes for a while now, but to have it formally a part of the ringers really, I mean, to be honest, it's like a dream come true. Before the ringer came to Spotify, I was a huge fan of the ringer show. Big Boston sports fan. Love you some Boston Celtics. The Patriots. Well, I'm a huge NBA fan. All I listen to is NBA podcast, to be honest. And they're all the ringer podcast. So, um, I've always admired them from afar. Um, and it's, it's, it's really, really cool to be a part of, of, so. a network that I really, really respect. I appreciate that. Bill Simms just texting me. The check has just cleared. Thank you for that message. All right. Yo, let's get into this episode, Cole. Take us away.

Let's just recap what the show is. Each episode of this season is going to cover one Frank Ocean album. Charles and I are going to discuss the history and the themes of that album. And then we're going to nominate and debate our choices for the best song off of that project. And at the end of every episode, we each have to crown a last song standing. This is the single best song that we think is better than all the other songs on the album. And then at the end of the season, we're going to have our Royal Rumble. This is the finale.

And this is where the picks, each song pick week after week, enter the Royal Rumble. We duke it out until Charles and I are forced to agree on the single greatest Frank Ocean song of all time. And we'll be covering every Frank Ocean song. Ocean album from Install to Ultra to Blonde will also have an episode that's devoted to the singles, features, and Lucy's. But for the purposes of today's episode, we're starting with the project that turned Frank Ocean into a star, Channel Orange. For those of you that have forgotten, Channel Orange was released on July 10th, 2012. It's Frank 's debut studio album and went number two on the Billboard 200 with 131,000 copies sold in its first

week. The project spawned five singles, including Thinking About You and Pyramids. And at the 2013 Grammys, Channel Orange was nominated for Album of the Year, record of the year, and Best Urban Contemporary album. Now, those are the facts of the album. But Cole, what would you say are like thematically the concepts that really take us away on this debut of Franks? At least how I think about it, it's kind of implied in the title, but Channel Orange is a concept album that plays like someone is flipping through TV stations. So each song is a self-contained story that functions, at least how I think about it, like a single episode of a TV show. Frank actually told a wrap-up at the time, he said, it's about the stories. If I write 14 stories that I love, the next step is

get the environment of music around it to best envelop the story. So stories here are critical. So So for example, you have a song like Crack Rock, which tells the story of a broken home devastated by addiction. And a song like Pyramids is like a surreal time-traveling allegory about a man in love with a former Egyptian queen turned sex worker. But what many of these stories share is this underlying theme of unrequited love. And this stems from Frank's own personal life. Right before the album came out, he posted on his tumbler that orange is the color that reminds him of the summer that he, first fell in love. And this was a super formative relationship for him. It was his first love. And it was also his first heartbreak. Frank expressed how he felt to this person and they told him that they didn't

feel the same way. And so he was absolutely devastated and he channeled these emotions into his music. He said, quote, I wrote to keep myself busy and sane. I wanted to create worlds that were rosier than mine. I tried to channel overwhelming emotions, channel emotions. So really at the heart of the album is this feeling of unrequited love. And the idea is that no matter what Frank does, know how many TV stations he flips through, he always returns to his memories of this lost love. He always returns to Channel Orange. So what I want to ask you after that beautiful, beautiful breakdown is when did you get into Frank Ocean? Because I was a blog boy at this time. I was on All right to dope boys. I was fucking infecting my parents' computers with so many viruses.

is just downloading tons of music. Frank Ocean was definitely one of those artists where I vividly remember when I downloaded the nostalgia ultra as a mixtape. And I'm kind of interested because you're a little bit older than me and I believe you probably would have been

around either late high school, early college, and that was around the time when you went into your pop music black hole and we're completely on a classical band. Yeah, so I've shown this a bunch, but when I went to college, I was studying classical music and I kind of just shut off every other genre of music. And so I missed, ironically, a lot of the albums and artists that I cover now and dissect released in this time period, one of which was Channel Orange. And so I missed

the whole Frank Ocean experience. I missed his come up. You know, I've heard his name, especially when he was on Watch the Throne and stuff. But it wasn't until actually Blonde came out that I went back and really listened to Channel Orange. So my experience of Frank Frank Ocean is very backwards. And we'll probably talk about this. A lot of ways it informs my experience of Channel Orange because I fell in love with Blonde. Like, Blonde is my album.

Like, I absolutely love that album. Channel Orange is a little bit different relationship for me. Obviously great, and we'll talk about it. But I really fell in love with Frank Ocean and then I went back. And so, I don't know. I mean, it definitely informs my experience of his music a little bit, but I mean, Frank's just such an admirable artist, such an admirable musician. We need artists like Frank Ocean working in the popular consciousness.

He's kind of like similar to Kendrick to me where he's an artist, artist that has a huge audience. And I feel like that is one of the most powerful positions to be in. And I feel like he's really pushed genres forward or even obliterated genres. wasn't, you know, we'll talk about it, but super influential artist and musician. But that's my experience. I really wish I could have lived it, though. I really, I miss out. I have FOMO about that.

I will say what was interesting about that time is that Frank Ocean comes on the scene when R&B was just in the doldrums. I think remembering what Usher's Confessions did, becoming one of the biggest albums released ever was definitely this watershed moment for popular black music in the 2000s. And I think it casted this big shadow over the rest of the genre. And what also cast a shadow is, is that I think we kind of underestimate how much human connection and love changed at this time. We're getting social media. The internet is readily available. We have iPhones in our pocket for the first time.

This is at a time when like Tumblr is becoming a thing and Twitter is becoming a thing and dating apps. And you have this cadre of artist, a Drake, a weekend, Frank, who are trying to basically come to terms with how do you sing about love in a non-corny way in a world where our conception of dating, our conception of connecting with people is changing radically. and I think Frank Ocean was one of the artists that hits that mark perfectly, where you needed someone to shake up R&B. It could not, it can no longer be this thing where like, hey, yo, here's 20 sex jams.

Not that that's all of R&B. R&B is a vast genre that I love. And, you know, you have the soul querying, you have all these different types. But, you know, after Omarion and Lloyd and Usher and all of these places, I think that there was a need of like, all right, we need something a little bit different. But I think the other thing that's important to talk about in this album is the Tumblr letter that he that he drops on July 4th. So I'm assuming you did, like, you did not read this letter in real time. Not in real time.

I do remember kind of like hearing about it. I do remember it kind of being a big deal, but I wasn't entrenched. So I didn't really understand the impact of it. But looking back as like me studying like almost like a history event, you know, it seemed very important. but I'm definitely curious to hear your experience of it in real time. So yeah, it was, it was definitely a massive moment. The best way I can describe to you is just like the feeling of it was I was, I had my driver's license and I was listening to Channel Orange. And what of my cousins quite literally was like, yo, turn that shit off.

And I'm like, oh, why? And he's just like, yo, he's gay. And I was just like, that was the level of, like, even in my personal life, like, that was the level of like, that was the level of like, that was the level of like. homophobia that you were dealing with in terms of like black popular music, where that was all people could talk about. And the reason that Frank drops this letter was that originally it was supposed to be in the album liner notes. But at this time, you know, CDs are getting stolen. There's listening events. And at this listening event, a bunch of industry insiders are hearing Frank Ocean used pronouns like he, as if he's singing to a man. So he,

circumvents that. So the letter is long, but I think we should read some of the letter because I think it actually does situate a lot of what this album is trying to do. So he says, quote, four summers ago, I met somebody. I was 19 years old. He was two. We spent that summer and the summer after together, every day almost. And on the days we were together, time would glide. Most of the day I'd see him and his smile. I hear his conversation and his silence until it was time to sleep. Sleep, I would often share with him. time I realized I was in love, it was malignant, it was hopeless, there was no escaping, no negotiating with the feeling, no choice, it was my first love, it changed my life. And I think the thing that like reading the letter back then and even now, the thing that kind of does break my heart is how much

channel orange in real time was almost rewritten as a coming out record when it's not. Like if you're listening to the lyrics, this is definitely more about, in my experience, Frank Ocean's feeling of coming of age, like it's a coming of age album. It is like an adult remembering the nostalgia of a certain specific summer, of a feeling of falling in love. And rapidly, if you go back and read some of the interviews, Frank is almost assaulted by the media in terms of just like, okay, what's it like being the first gay black man in R&B, which obviously he was not.

There was another member in Odd Future at the same time who was also like a lesbian, like out, like out a Cid. So it was just like, it was a very weird, weird time to live through. It's almost tragic that we have to even bring this part up, right? Like, to have this letter attached, it's beautiful and it's very artful. It's very frank the way that he did it. But it almost seems tragic that he had to do it. And I, you know, now 10 years removed, it doesn't feel, I feel like the music and the album has transcended that moment.

Yeah. It's a really important historical kind of context for the album. But what I think about, you know, so much has changed in 10 years in terms of acceptance. Obviously, it's not perfect and we're still climbing that hill. But I don't know. I feel like you read, I was reading articles about this moment, you know, that we're looking back on it. And a lot of journalists and people that identify as queer, like they really respect and memorandum, that moment as a watershed moment.

Someone in the popular consciousness making that kind of statement became like a really kind of inspiration point for a lot of people and a lot of artists specifically. So I just didn't want to like glaze over that fact because it does feel important. I mean, it was massively important.

Like I think I don't, I don't even, it's not that I'm belittling the letter, but it is, it was weird going back and re like, rereading a lot of Frank Ocean interviews at that time and seeing how obviously uncomfortable he was that you wait your entire life to make your debut album. Frank Ocean had essentially been forgotten by Def Jam at this point. He had to claw and fight his way back. And like this, imagine what this would have been like if you like got the jewel case of Channel Orange and you

could read something this beautiful in the liner. No. Right. In real time, I remember. Like this album, people love this album. It was critically acclaimed. But it was not like Frank Ocean just got away Scott free. There was a lot of homophobic remarks.

There was a lot of beefing within the industry. There was a lot of sniping. And it was this, there was this cognitive dissonance when I was listening to it being like, this artist who had to drop a free mixtape just sold 131,000 copies of an album at a time when the industry,

streaming was not really what it was yet. I was just like, goddamn, this is amazing as a fan, but also the backlash that he got. Even now, going back to the album, I was just like, it was rough as someone who was supporting Frank. So I cannot imagine how rough it was for him as the artist. You feel me? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is time, Cole for our first segment, which, all right, Justin, our producer, Justin, can you say hi?

Hi to the people. Hi, guys. What's up? What do you need for me? What do you need for me, Charles? Guys, that's Justin Sales. He's a ringer, producer extraordinaire. He's also my editor.

He hears all my bad takes and opinions. On last season, we had a quiz segment. What was it called Cole again? Damn, that's wild. So we had to come up with a new name for our quiz segment. And Justin doesn't seem to like it. So I'm going to present it to you both. And you tell me if it's too corny to keep,

or if it's perfection, I'm going to go with Super Quiz Kids. Cole? I love it. Justin was better. You know what, Charles? It's, you know what? I don't have anything better. So.

Exactly. Exactly, dude. It was very hard. Frank Ocean is a very artistic artist. And I was just like, damn, like, what can I do? I was going through his whole discography, and it just hit me. Like, oh, this is how Leonardo must have felt when he painted the Mona Lee. But anyway, guys, SuperQuest Kids is where Cole and I attempt to stump each other

with little known facts about the album. Whoever gets the most questions correct will get first pick in the last longstanding segment at the end of the episode. Cole, you have two questions. I have two questions. Start me off. All right. So I'll give you a little bit of a softball.

All right, lobby lobby a softie. Maybe, we'll see. Okay, so the physical CD version of Channel Orange contains a hidden bonus track at the end of the album, only on the physical, not on streaming. What was this song called and who does it feature? I knew this and I don't know it now. Oh, shit. All right. It's not voodoo.

It's actually on the album. Yeah, voodoo, it's kind of on the album. It's part of the skit at the end. Yes. So that's good. You knew that. Okay. I actually only in my research that I re-remember that this was actually a part of the album.

So it's called Golden Girl, and it's featuring Tyler the Creator. Do you remember the song at all? It's really good. We can play a little clip here. You know, play a little clip because I don't remember this song at all. I don't remember this song at all. I don't know. You're 24K.

You make it bright when it's great. I don't remember this at all. But then again, I'm almost positive. if I had the physical copy of Channel Orange. So, yeah, it's hard to listen. I mean, really, the only place you can find it is YouTube. So it's not, like, easily listenable within the context of the album, which is kind of tragic.

It's really, it's a really good song. Tyler's verse. I love Tyler. Everyone knows this, but it's a little questionable. All right. This was, this was a great one to start me off because it was actually, like, kind of easy. I'm just an idiot. This one, I actually don't think you're going to get.

I'm going to lob you a hard one. All right. Okay. The song, End, contains dialogue from the 2006 movie ATL. What character says the dialogue that is in the song?

Give me the character's name. You think I'm fucking around, Charles? No, no. You've seen ATL? I was like, Cole's never seen ATO, bro. Wait, have you seen ATL, Carl? Do you know how much research I do for dissect? Oh, my God.

I was like, dog, he wasn't in the streets, Like that? Damn. I was not. I was not, but I research heavy. My research game is A plus. All right. Damn.

All right. What's your second question? All right. So Channel Orange famously debuted at number two on the Billboard 200 chart. What album beat Frank to number one? I'll give you multiple choice. Was it number one? Or A.

Justin Bieber, believe. B. Chris Brown Fortune. Or C. Zach Brown band Uncaged It's definitely not Bieber Those are two different eras

Wait, was it two different areas? Okay, you're right But they were the same era But it wasn't Bieber So I'll give you that It wasn't Bieber And Chris Brown was beefing with Frankie But I don't think it was because of this

At all, I don't I'm gonna go with Zach Brown You are correct, sir Hell yeah Hell yeah All right This is, ooh. You know, I'm going to give you a tough one.

I'm going to give you a tough one. How high did thinking about you chart on the hot one on you? Do you think I'm fucking around, dude? I don't even look. I'm not even going to, it's written on my paper. I'm not even going to lick. It's number 38. Whoa, no, it's 32.

Oh, fuck. Ah! Hey, I was close. That was good for not, for not looking. Oh, damn, we have a tiebreaker, don't we? We need a tiebreaker? I got a third one. I got a third one, but my third one is way too easy.

Give me your third one. Okay, okay. Not wanting to draw attention to his name. Frank chose not to include his name on the cover of Channel Orange and also credited his own executive producer role under the alias Everest. Where did this name come from? Wait, where did the name for the dog come from? Oh, you got, I didn't say dog. Yeah, no, that's his dog.

He had a Burmese Mountain Dog, RIP, Everest. He passed away. Yeah. All right. You know. Come on, man. Don't play. Woo!

I don't have an extra question, so I win this round. Hell, yeah. I get the first. I get the first. All right. I'll give you that. All right. That's pretty good, though.

Oh, we're doing. People said the streets, the Twitter streets were saying, I don't know if they have another last song standing in them. They can't bring it. The heat. We were, they were sorely wrong. But anyway, can I interject for a second, guys? Yes. Is there a.

prize or anything tied to this quiz game. Oh, I know the prize. So, Cole, Cole, you are a shill for musician merch, okay? Like, you got on, you're wearing a Frank Ocean t-shirt today. No, I am. You have the Black Friday version of Blonde. The Black Friday, Frank fans out there, the hardcore ones will know. I have the Black Friday blonde vinyl exclusive that was only released on one day,

Black Friday many years ago. I also have the reissue blonde. I have other blonde in merch. I've got everything. So do you have Frank Ocean's infamous Cochring? Be truthful. I do not, actually. I do. All right. So, Justin, can you do some Googles for me? I'm on my work laptop. I don't want them to be like, yo, he's like, so, Jessica, can you do some research? How much is the Frank Ocean Cockering going for now? Googleing Frank Ocean. Homer.

Cockring. $25,000. And by the way, it is gold and it's gold and it's diamonds. And it's called the triple XL. So not only do you get a gold and diamond cockering, but you get the right to say triple XL. ring. So you're... So then Justin, whoever wins Super Quiz Kids this entire season at the end, who has the most points, can we charge the double X-El Franco Shikak ring to our Spotify account?

Well, as Cole has mentioned, he's part of the ringer now. So that means I have to walk into Bill's office or Sean Fenton Fenton's office and say, hey, the triple XL cockering. I'll pull some strings, guys. I'll see what I can do. If not, if not, we'll, I just want to know, if we can't get the Frank Ocean Homer cockering and we have to get a substitute cockering, is that okay? That is okay. Okay.

Here's the thing. Justin, make it orange. Make it channel orange. Do you have to be a channel orange cockering? I'll wear proudly. And I have one more question that I'm going to hang up and listen. Cole, has this already broken the record for most times the word cockering has been said on the dissect feet? Absolutely, absolutely.

Hell yeah. That's what the L.S boys are about. Welcome to the ring. Yo, now that very entertaining but very not safe for work tangent is over, It's time. And the winner is Frank Flipping Ocean. Frank Ocean.

All right. We are going to argue, okay? It's the nominations. Last song Standing is for Cole and I to determine the single best song from a Frank Ocean album. The songs we select over the course of the season will then duke it out in a season finale

Royal Rumble. Well, we'll be forced to agree on the last song standing, the single best song by Frank Ocean. Right now, we're each nominating what songs from Channel Orange should be in contention. Cole, why don't you hit us with your first one? Wait, can I guess?

Can I guess, do a guess about what I think your first song will be? That's really funny because I was going to have you guess. So yes, please guess. All right. What do I think? All right, can I guess what I think your favorite song off this album is? It might also be my first nomination. too.

I am going to go with I think it's probably bad religion. Yep. I knew it. I fucking knew it. I was listening back to this album. This is Cole Bick? Cole is going to love this.

Taxi driving. I swear I've got three lives. Balanced on my head like stick knives. I can't tell you the truth about my disguise. I can't charge. trust no one. You say a lot who I'm, okay.

I was really curious because I was going to give you my bad religion pick and I wasn't sure if you're going to shit on it or not. I knew you're going to say, oh, that's so cold, that's predictable.

But I wasn't sure, like, what area of Frank Ocean? Like, are you like a lost guy? Are you a thinking about you guy? Or are you a bad religion guy? Or you're all of, maybe all of the above. But so you,

so you love this song too. I'm really, really happy to hear that. So here's the thing. This is going to sound very bad. I love this song way less in 2023 than I did when I first listened to it. When I first listened to it, I'm just like, yo.

And now it's not that the song is worse. It is that the weird thing about going back to Channel Orange is I feel like Frank has done bad religion better in subsequent projects. Which is not taking anything away from it, but I feel like you have to

choose this song because I think it's impossible to discuss the first phase of Frank Ocean's career. without touching upon why thematically, this is such an important record. So why, like, why do you think that this is something that if you don't get bad religion, you really don't get any of the other stuff? Well, I think, I mean, we talked about the unrequited love theme, and it's kind of undercurrent throughout the whole project to this point. But bad religion is really what, like, formalizes, crystallizes what I think is at the heart, very, very heart of this album, which is this

heartbreak. And it's like, you know, it's classic Frank on Channel Orange in which he's going to, you know, in case his feeling or a real life experience and flipping into a story that relates to that feeling and it conveys that feeling, but it's a fictional story. So this one, for instance, is Frank's character or Frank in a taxi cab. He's using the cab driver as a therapist. He's having him take the long route so that he can talk to him. And, you know, it's a taxi driver therapy session, but really it's a confessional booth is what this taxi, you know, this taxi cab represents. And if you think about when, like, so when Frank confesses love to that first love that broke his heart, he did it inside a car. We hear that skit at the very end of the album, two people talking, confessing their love for

each other, you know, inside a car. And in that open letter, he kind of details that moment very beautifully, him pouring his heart out to this person. And then essentially, like the guy literally taps him on the shoulder and says it's going to be okay and goes back into to his house with his girlfriend. And so you can really just picture this moment. Like we've all probably had moments like that inside a car. And so you can see the seeds of that experience then transforming into this fictional story of him in a car confessing his love and singing about this unrequited love. So just conceptually, it's like so, like so many of the songs on Channel Orange, it's so well thought out. It's like it's one thing to say I tell stories in my music, but every single song on here is a story with so much depth.

And the way that he writes it is like a very good literary writer where he's like showing and not telling. You know, like he very rarely says this is what the story is about. We just are kind of dropped into the world and we just experience a scene in a movie. And we kind of put together the pieces of the narrative. it's not very like linear story progressions so just the concept of is just so brilliant sonically it's one of those songs for me like it's a sing about me it's a nude from radio head it's a song that like when i when i hear bad religion i am dropping what i'm doing either i'm skipping it or i'm doing nothing but listening to it and it is totally entrances me i am just so locked into the

the atmosphere and the emotion. It's just one of those songs that stops me in my tracks every single time. I can't do anything but listen to it. I have some musical geeky stuff that I do want to show you just to point out Frank's compositional brilliance as a musician. But before I go on too long on an ISO, tell me why you love it. So I think the funny thing that I was thinking about when I went back to bad religion is how much it does not sound like a queer anthem.

And what I mean by that is, like, Lady Gaga drops born this way in 2011. And it's this very just like loud, raucous, cheerful, like, raw, goat. Like, that is what is definitely in the ether around this time in like the pop landscape. It's in the atmosphere. And what I think makes bad religion so beautiful even today is how, understated it is. It is not a song that's like, I'm a gay man. It is not. It is like, to your point, he's dropping you into this story and he is using all of these narrative devices to kind of bring you into his world. I was reading when I was reading about Frank around this time is interesting

how much he was saying that a lot of these stories aren't solely about him. It's not like, I think one thing we tend to do with a lot of artists is when you go back to Channel Orange, I think it's a very, and I think the Tumblr letter is one part of this, where it's very easy to be like, bad religion is a song about Frank Ocean. And I'm like, no, I think bad religion is a song that's summing up an emotion. It's summing up an emotion of like, what does it mean to love someone that does not love you? What does it mean that the only person that you can tell is a taxi driver that has no connection to you whatsoever.

And that's what I think is actually so beautiful about it is that what makes it stronger is that we've all had that moment, no matter who you've ever been in love with, that moment of like, I can't tell my, I can't tell anybody else in the world that needs to hear this about this,

except somebody who honestly does not give a flying fuck, who is this taxi driver. And that's what I think actually re-listen to it, broke my heart even more. Because I was like, this is the only person that he has. Now, I don't think you were around for this. And Justin can correct me if I'm wrong. This song had a little bit of controversy when it dropped.

Really? Yeah, people did not like the chorus when he said, he said, he said, Allahou-A-Bar, I told him don't curse me. Oh, right. A lot of people were like, this is a lot of Islamophobic, I believe. It was a lot of phobic, yeah. It was just not there. Going back to it, I'm not going to defend any of the lyrics.

But that part reading it in 20, 23, I feel like Frank is saying it more tongue-in-cheek. Here's the thing. It could still be hurtful to people. I'm not defending it on that level. But he follows it up with, Bobo, you need prayer. I guess it couldn't hurt me. Part of what I think the song is, and tell me if I'm off the mark, because you are way better at doing this than I am. But part of this song also feels like Frank trying to grapple

with religion as a concept. And I'm not talking about just Christianity or Judaism or anything like that about like loving someone, opening yourself up to them, being so enraptured by that feeling can also be a religion. It can also be something that like blinds you to the truth about how you feel about the world, about yourself. And that's why I think it's so interesting. I think part of the chorus is Frank trying to come to terms with how did I let somebody lead me to this place where I'm so broken? Is that totally off the mark? No, I mean, he says it. He says, you know, it's a bad religious, this one-man cult. Like, he directly compares his obsession with this one person with a, you know, one-man cult. So I think you're spot on there. Um, I do.

I do remember reading about the backlash. And I always give artists benefit of doubt, especially someone like Frank that has shown no signs of anything like that. Because to me, it just read like that, the Ali Akbar, I don't know how to say it, but that just means if I remember correctly, God is great. Or like God is, essentially Frank is spilling his heart about this problem. And like many religious people often do, is suggest that you find God. And I think, you know, that was my pretty straightforward reading of it. I never really saw the harm in that. But yeah, can I point out, it's right around that moment, one of my favorite musical,

compositional, at least in popular music of the last, I don't know, definitely the 21st century. Could I just give you a little mini dissection? Oh, man. Come on. All right. So this season. Now, to be clear, we have to remind people. This is one of the most contentious parts of the entire show,

because either I'm going to be dissected or I'm not. Okay, this is not quite my conspiracy corner, but you can judge me. You can judge me. I'll try to sell you something here. Okay. So in the chorus, let me just play you. Let's just let the listeners hear this part of the chorus,

and then I'm going to talk about it. Okay, so absolutely gorgeous. And there's a reason for it. This part of the song gets me every. every single time, like chills, super emotions, like beautiful. So here's what's happening musically. It's really, really cool. So at this part of the song, we get to just the start of the chorus, which is like this.

Pretty like subdued. And then we get those strings. The strings come in out of nowhere and they play this descending line out of nowhere. It's like this very dramatic moment. And it's right before he says, brings me to my knees. and we get this literal dissension. So every time, in my mind, I'm like, that's a musical depiction of Frank dropping to his knees.

I picture it every time I hear that. And then Frank picks up the melody out right after the strings, the end note that the strings play, Frank sings, and then he starts in ascension. So he sings this. So it's building to this really dramatic moment. And the next note in this song, particular key signature should be a G sharp.

So he technically should go like this. Nothing wrong with that, but here's what he does instead. And we get this the most dissonant chord there is in tonal Western music. It's called a seventh diminished chord. It's like super tragic, dissonant tense. And then he sings this G natural, which is the highest note that he's sung in the song so far. And it's the wrong note. It doesn't belong in the key signature.

So just like there's this ascension. There's this hymn saying, if this love is bringing me to my knees, and it's just this dramatic, unexpected moment, just full of tension. And then the beautiful part is that all that tension gets resolved with the next chord. And it's just like this. And then he goes into the high falsetto voice, and it just fucking melts my heart.

every single time. That is probably one of my favorite when he does the, I can never make him love me falsetto. That is like when I first heard that, I was just like, I almost cried. I was just like, God damn it. Okay, Charles, I'm so happy,

because I was almost going to skip this part, but I have a second, and it's exactly that moment. Now you cooking, you cooking, Cole? Let me break this down musically, so he says the line in question we can play it here. He says,

I will never make him love me. But then, that love me at the end turns into a plea. So he just, you know, he solos out, love me, and he repeats it. Love me. Love me. And it's like he's pleading with this guy to love him. And the thing is, he's singing this melody. But he's singing that wrong note. And this time around, he's singing it over an E major chord, which is the home chord. The thing about this is that he's singing that note, he's singing the wrong note over this, which to me, again, my musical brain, he's saying love me to this person that won't love him, singing the wrong note, isolated, like, he's detaching himself from it,

and it's like, it's the perfect musical expression of this pleading unrequited love, singing the wrong note over this beautiful chord, him not being able to connect with this guy, like, compositionally fucking brilliant. Cole, I know that wasn't our major dissection. but I've been mini dissected. So you've already like a mini dissection that you was cooking. My last thing on this that I also think is genius about this song is that the verses are so conversational. He's not over-singing.

If you think about the singers of this time, whether it's the weekend or Cherami or Miguel, singers that are a little bit more like classically talented than I think Frank. and that's not taking anything away from him, this type of song they would sell it. But thematically, what he's doing is those verses, it sounds like he's having a conversation with someone else. It is delivered that way. And by the time we get to the chorus,

that part where the strings come in and it starts swelling, it feels very operatic. It feels like being in a black church when someone is like, all right, this is the moment when you're going to show us your vocal acrobatics. And I think it takes a very, very intentional artist to restrain himself for so much of the song

and then go, all right, now we're doing. Now we're doing the falsettos. Now we're doing the runs. Now we're doing the things that are very, very foundational to R&B that Frank honestly just does not do that much in the entirety of his career, which I think sells this shit so much.

And yeah, just quickly, like, this is part of him. Like, you know, we didn't touch on the process of this album, but like it took him like, I think seven to nine months to record the vocals for, channel orange. They had written it in two weeks and then he took, you know, a super long time perfecting every vocal performance and it's so thought out. In his mind, he's like, okay, this is a taxi cab

confessional. I'm going to start it like I'm talking. Like that conceptually just is perfect. And then it's, you know, we get the church organ, which plays into the theme of bad religion. Like everything, instrumentation, it's all very, very, very thought out. It makes me think of, I don't know if we'll talk about it, but crack rock. He purposely sung that song with a raspy voice, because he said that's how, you know, a smoker would sing it. Yeah. So, I mean, he's actively, actively thinking about these details. Yeah, could not agree more.

First nomination, we both agree, bad religion. Now, second nomination, Cole, can you guess what I'm going to pick? Can you, like, guess which song that I'm going to stumble? Okay. It's going to, okay, it's, see, I'm not quite, I haven't quite gauge your Frank Ocean fandom in terms of, like, what style? Because he goes through a lot of style. So I'm going to just have to guess because, you know, based on past experience, I'm like, okay, I'm probably going to have to, it's probably a single.

It's probably a bigger song. It's probably one of the catchier songs. So I know the one that you should pick, and I don't know if that's going to be the one. I'm going to guess it can't be thinking about you. Is it thinking about you? That's not the one that I'm leading with. Can you pick another one? This is the one that I'm stumping for. I'm rewriting his story. on this one. Oh, shit. Interesting. Rewrining history.

Is it lost? No. We're going with the one in my heart, the one I couldn't stop playing, Pyramids. She's working at the pyramid tonight. Working at the pyramid, yeah, working at the pyramid tonight. Okay. I love pyramids so much. And here's the thing.

pyramids. I will give this to you, Cole. Nothing about pyramids should have worked. Or there's nothing about it that should have aged, like, fine wine like it has. This is a 10-minute song. Perfect. 2010's EDM-adjacent beat. Like, this is a time in popular music where every single, like, EDM had taken over the culture,

hip-hop, R&B, pop. Every beat was just like this very, just like, EDM core. Everything needed a build and a drop, all of this shit. And it has a John Mayer guitar solo, which even at the time, I was just like, enough, Frank. God damn. And like, I love this song when it came out, but there was a sense of like, my ears had been insulted by so, like, just like Avichy and Scrillex and all this shit where I was like, oh my God, I guess so. But, I don't know what it is. Pyramids to me is one of those rare songs from this time.

That sounds better today than it did then. And my appreciation for it has only grown because Frank does not really make songs like this anymore. A song that's a little bit faster on the BPM tip. What also he does on this, which I think is one of my favorite things about Frank, is Frank is such a nonlinear storyteller where the way he drops information into you in a song, you're like, wait, is, wait, is he talking about actual Cleopatra? Is he talking about actual Egypt? No, this is a sex worker.

No, there's a Pimp. Oh my God. That is the level of like when you start listening to this song. That it's like, this is going to sound very like broish. Like it reminds me of like a Tarantino script sometimes where it's like, the way that you will drop information on you keeps you on the edge of your seat. And that's what I just love about pyramids. I also think some of the lyrics and details.

and dark humor that he uses is so funny, so vivid, so lush. Like our skin like bronze and our hair like cashmere, the jewel of Africa, a jewel, what good is a jewel that ain't still precious? The way you say my name makes me feel like I'm that niggum, but I'm still unemployed is so funny. Like it is like, and you don't, that's the thing I think we, we tend to talk about Frank Ocean as such a self-serious artist, which he is.

But some of his songs have such a humor to them and such a likeness and buoyancy that I think gets lost a little bit. And I think the best quote to explain something like pyramids is actually Frank saying, I wanted to create worlds that were rosier than mine. I tried to channel overwhelming emotions,

exactly what you had talked about before. And that's what I'm. I think I love about this album is that we're coming out of a time in R&B where most R&B songs, the stories have a very clear like act one, act two, act three structure. It is just like, all right, I was at the club. I talked this girl. I took her home. We had sex. Like it's just very like that is what I love songs. Like I love this. This is what I was listening to it. This is what it was. And I think pyramids is such just a weird. way is a weird single and a weird way to introduce yourself to the world after thinking about

you is just being i'm making a grand epic about this sex worker and pim and they live in egypt kind of maybe not really it might be meant for but we don't know that that's why you love frank and also last thing we're going to talk about the tumbler core of this entire album later but the single artwork being like a fucking simpson At this time, every motherfucker who had a mixtape, bro, was doing Simpsons covers. And I was, you are in the streets for this, Cole. No, I was not. But it was bad.

Like, Justin, really quick, how many Simpsons mixtape covers during the blog area did you see? Yeah. Who were some of the worst ones? Hold on. Oh, Simpsons or Family Guy. Both of those are huge. I don't remember the family guys as much as the Simpsons ones. But this was good, right?

because the cover, right, the song is not super, you know, the song is like very well written. Then the cover, wasn't it? The Frank character laying in bed creating his own pyramid, if you know what I'm saying? Yes. With the underneath the sheets. I think they, uh... A Frank Boner, potentially a copering? Pitching a pyramid, I believe is what they call that.

Picking a pyramid. as Justin has told you because don't let don't let the cool the cool accent where is Justin from Rhode Island don't let the Rhode Island accent cool you he was in these blog rap streets but anyway pyramids I'm I am changing the history this song is fucking amazing 10 minutes all of it love it how do you feel about pyramids school so okay so this is where I just know we run in different circles because everyone that I know I don't have a lot of friends but like Everyone loves pyramids, right? I thought everyone loves this song.

It was on my list. I was debating really heavily between pyramids and bad religion as my first pick. The musical stuff and bad religion got me. But Pyramids is like, I think it's brilliant. Especially it was this second single. It's the first thing people heard about this, you know, after thinking about you confirmed that nostalgia ultra was like not a fluke and that this guy had something to say.

He was a pop artist, but also was very unique in the space. and then he drops his 10 minute epic with this crazy music video um i love that kind of shit like so unpredictable it reminded me of when like radiohead dropped paranoid android after as their first single after the bend and it was like this eight minute song like what the fuck is this also had a cartoon uh music video strangely um speaking of the simpsons but i i really love this song i still i mean i did two part episode on this song i still don't exactly know what it's about like i get the broad strokes, but I'm like, is the first half, like a dream? And then the guy that the modern day pimping sex worker, and he's in love with her, and, you know, she's leaving sex with all

these guys. And so that's why he had the dream about Cleopatra running away in ancient Egypt. Like, I still can't wrap my head fully around story. So I think here's the thing. I always took it that the pyramid is a strip club. Like, he's like, Cleopatra's her name. Okay. And part two, for sure. Yeah. So I, I even think in part one, like, Cleopatra. is her name. She's a sex worker. They're at the pyramid. He's obviously a pimp. Everything goes wrong from there. But I think the thing that is like so genius about Frank is like the first like third of the song. You're not sure. Like you're not. There's nothing because what are the first lyrics? Setchita's on the loose. There's a thief out on the move. Underneath our legions view,

they have taken Cleopatra. There's there's nothing that he's saying to you at that point where you're just like, Wait, what? Why are you making a song about ancient Egypt? Which I think is also what's fun about this. But here's the thing. I was not hating on pyramids back in the day. I loved pyramids. But it was definitely not, it did not do what thinking about you did.

I'll ask you this. Do you think pyramids charted on the Hot 100? I would guess no. It did not. Can you guess? All right. Guess the number that it hit on the U.S. Hot R&B songs.

Like 150 or something? It was not better than that. It was 22. So this was not. Oh, on R&B, sorry. On the hot R&B song. So this, like, I was just like, am I, like, when you were just like, no, everybody like no loves this.

I'm just like, I remember the world just kind of shrugging. They're like, this ain't no thinking about you. Which is I was just like bummed me out because I would rather listen to pyramids over thinking about you any day. Oh, my God. See. What are you? I love you for that.

Thank you for saying that. Because if I had a hot take corner like you, like you do, my hot take would be, I don't like thinking about you. Stop! That's my third pick. How dare you? How dare you? Thinking about you was a great song. Okay, I'll save it then. I'll save it.

All right. Let's keep talking about pyramids. I'm getting fucking pissed. All right. So cue my music. This is Cole's Conspiracy Corner, first edition, first one of the second season. This is when I lay out for Charles an outlandish theory that I, come up with about this particular song and he tells me if I'm full of shit or not.

So it has to do with the pyramid. The question is, is pyramids a quadruple entendre? So we have Egyptian pyramids, obvious. Yes. Pyramids, the strip club, obvious. And then we already touched on the pyramids, you know, of the bed sheets of a boner. So here's the possible fourth meaning and layer. And I have to get my keyboard out for it because you're going to,

You're going to absolutely love this, Charles. Okay, so you know the riff, the EDM-type riff in the first half. Okay. Like it sounds like this, right? We all know that. Yep. Yeah, so we know this riff. So if you look at the composition of this riff, it essentially goes up the scale,

hits a peak, and then comes back down. There's some flavor to it, obviously. But the shape of it, especially if you look on a musical grid, it goes up. What shape goes up, peaks, and then comes back down? Some might say that's a musical pyramid. Yeah, you've been on that crack rock call. No, no, no. Come on, man.

It was a nice try. Nice try. You're not getting one on the board this episode. Okay, so let me... I put that in season three of Dissect. I have since revisited that theory. I got to call myself out. I think it's bullshit, too.

It's like, I like it. I like the, I'm just like, he's going for it. It's just, I can't let you slide on that one, cold, not at all. But yo, you've been like, so what is it about pyramids that is just like, that does it for you? Because, like, you are not a singles guy. Like, I don't think about you. Like, you like deep cuts. Pyramids is not a deep cut.

Why is it, like, why do you like pyramids? I just, I mean, I like, I love it as a song. I just like the way, you know, it just sounds good to me. But, you know, beyond that, it hits all the things I love in music, which is ambition and telling stories. And it isn't it very ambitious piece of music. You know, it's almost 10 minutes long. There's two segments.

There's two interludes, one in the middle, one at the end. You know, it's not just a cut and paste beat switch. There's very, you know, thought put into like, how am I going to bridge these two songs together? And then it works conceptually. It's not just like, here's one song and here's another song and they're about two different things. It's like, no, the middle part is a time, it's a wormhole. It's like that's where they flash forward in time. And all of a sudden you hear this modern, you know, R&B kind of musical texture and it's set in the modern times.

But it calls back to the Cleopatra of the, you know, ancient Egypt that is established in the first half. And so it really just makes you think narratively, very creatively again, like I told you, like I still don't quite have my grasp on like what's going on, but I get the broad strokes of it. It just, and I just, I just absolutely loved that he dropped it second and like it was, it makes way more sense in retrospect why he did it. It's so frank to do that. Like, oh, you guys think I'm this? No, actually, let me show you this. And like, it just really defines him early on as really a predictor of what he would become, which is completely unpredictable. Every single, every album, every song seems to have its own identity. And so I just, I just love the ambition of it.

We're agreeing too much on this episode. I know. We're agreeing too much. I don't think we're going to agree on your next pick. So, all right, so here's the thing. You know what? I'm going to recap the nominations and then we're going to get a little spicy. Okay. So we both have bad religion and pyramids number one, number two. Now we're going to grow to crack rock, crack, quack. Takes. Okay. And for this, these are going to be some hot takes that are all going to center around. What has aged the worst, in my opinion, on Channel Orange. I'm going to give you three, Cole, and you're going to have to pick which one is the most egregious.

All right? All right. The first one, this is a lukewarm take, in my opinion. You know what song I loved in the moment? I was like, this song is a banger that I can't listen to now that I think is actually embarrassing, that it's on this album. Monks. Monks has not aged well. It's a clunker, I think.

I don't think that's a hot take because I don't really like that. I thought you would love monks. I was just like... It's one of my least favorite songs on the album. And especially on, like, the back half of the album is my favorite. My hot take is I actually just really rarely listen to the first half of this album. I started at super rich kids usually and go from there because the back half is amazing. With monks kind of being the exception, kind of being the one.

that I skip sometimes. So then I'm going to go with my next one, because you already named it. I think the extreme Tumblr energy of super rich kids is embarrassing. Like it is like, I'm like, people love this song. Like this is the song off this album that I'm like, people will go to the mat for super rich kids. I think he's a better lyricist of this. Like super rich kids is such a like Coachella core. like white

bro discovered R&B yesterday ass fucking song like I never want to hear this shit in the way it may or may not be it may or may not be my third picks oh if it's your third oh

okay I'm so cringy like I'm just like no no you're better than this Frank I know people are going to hate me for that that's my second take my third one

okay Frank Ocean dropping a Dragon Ball Z reference in Pink Matter ruins in otherwise perfect Andre 300 verse. Like love Andre 300,000's verse. But Pink Matter, I'm like Frank. Frank, when I talk about Tumblr energy, I'm like, dog, you know who's dropping Dragon Ball Z bars?

Big Sean. You're not Big Sean, bro. And here's the thing, I like some Big Sean songs. Big Sean, like I got nothing against Big Sean. But dog, you Frank Ocean, bro. You talk about Majin Boo on your debut album? Nigger, really? Come on, bro.

Okay, so see, that's funny. It recalls my, when I was dissecting this album, I had no idea what Margin boo was. Every time I heard the song, I was like, what the fuck's Marginboo? And then when I actually went to dissect it, I was like, oh, it's this little pink thing. I still don't really know what it is. It's margin boo. It's Jogginboo, okay. Cole, have you ever watched Dragon Ball Z?

No, not at all. I'm an adult. I don't watch cartoons yet on your face. Cole. Cole. I'm going to get Guillamo del Toro on the fucking phone right now. Don't do this. Don't do this.

All right. So you don't know who Majin Boo is. Do you know what a kid boo is? No. All right. All right. Out of these three crack rock takes, which one do you think is the most egregious?

It's definitely number two. Definitely number two. All right. We're going to need a tiebreaker. Justin, what? Can you back me up? Out of these three? opinions. Which one is the most egregious and which one are you like, he's kind of cooking?

I kind of like super rich kids. Come on. This is. I kind of like super rich kids. Hell yeah. No, look, I want to dislike super rich kids. And then I put it on and I'm like, I'm just having a good time listening to the song. It's like, you know, it starts with the Farrell style. Like, it's just, it's a good vibe, man. It's just a good vibe. I'm going to sell you. I'm selling both of you guys on this song when I get to it. You know what? Do we have to go to an ad break or can we just go to the third nomination? Let's put some suspense on it. Let's let's go to the, let's cut to the ad. All right. Let's go to an ad break and then me and Cole are going to throw some hands. We'll be back very soon. All right, Cole, we've spoiled it. This is how we should have like

ended this pod. I'm glad that we got here because I'm going to stump for thinking about you, which is a far superior song. And I'm actually hurt that you don't like this. And you're going to stump for super rich kids. Let's have you start first with super rich kids. You convince me why I am wrong about this song. Too many bottles of this wine we can't pronounce. Too many bowls of that green.

No lucky chance. So on the surface, it feels like you guys are alluding to. It feels kind of broy. It feels kind of basic. It feels kind of, I don't know, kind of corny. I'll definitely give you that. There's something a little just corny about it. until you actually look at what he's singing about,

and it's like really, really nuanced and complex and cuts me right to the core in terms of like... Too many bowls of that green, no lucky charms is what's cutting you to the corkel? Really? Yes, okay, because what did he say in the chorus right after that? The maids come around too much. Parents ain't around enough.

Super rich kids with nothing but fake friends. The song is all about, you know, this wealth, this kid born into luxury, but yet his parents aren't around. the maids don't even pay attention to him he's super lonely he's doing drugs to fulfill his life he has everything that he could ever want materially but not anything that he needs emotionally and so it's a really i think it's actually a really heartbreaking song and some of the the writing of it is just like very very nuanced and like clever so like perfect frank ocean example of brilliant writing

verse one starts a you know start my day up on the roof there's nothing like this type of view. So the protagonist is high. Like, that's the theme. Like, that's the motif. He's high on drugs. He's high on the social and like, you know, wealth hierarchy. And he's literally on, you know, the high Beverly Hills looking down. But this also foreshadows the death, his death at the end of the song where he falls from this great height, which is a really great metaphor. And then he says, point to Clipker at the tube. I prefer except, you know, expensive news. And so we are like, oh, yeah, He's just like, is this character like actually informed about the world? And it's like, nope, twist, new car, new girl, new.

He's actually saying news plural, not news like information, but actually new plural. And so just another little, like clever little Easter egg there. He also says, good times, baby, it's good times, you know, describing his kind of posh lifestyle, but also piggy's back off of the word watch, new watch, good times, clever. but also then we hear like a good times TV show sample in the background which also goes back to point the clicker at the tube so he's doing really cool writing stuff here motivocally and then we get you know the loneliness of the chorus and then we get that really that beautiful post chorus where he says real love I'm searching for a real love that to me is the entire song when he sings that when he goes from the rapping voice to the sing like we he's giving us that that's the answer real love I'm searching for a real love it's an interpolation of a Mary J. Blyde's song. And then Earl's verse, I can, I'll save all my geeky shit. It's a really good

verse. And he's actually, I love this. I love the first bar. Wait, what's the first. All right, close your eyes of what you can't imagine. We are the Zanny Nash and catty smash your bratty eyes. Like, it's the shit I love from Earl. Like, I can't hate on the Earl verse. The Earl verse. And so, dude, it's really, and then like

fun fact, like 37 out of the 81 words, so almost half his words contain the A vowel sound. So it's just like this incredibly dense schematic rhyme structure. And like at the end of the verse is kind of the key to the verse. He says, panic and patch me up,

Pappy Dun latch key does, toying with Raggy Ans and Mammy Dun had enough. So latchkey kid, you know, that means essentially parents weren't around and the kid can do whatever he wants. But then you'd realize here Pappy Dun latchkey does toying with Raggy Ans, like his dad is cheating on his mom.

Mammy done had enough. So now his parents are getting a divorce. So if you really listen to Earl's worst, that's a really important narrative kind of moment. Because right after that part, after he says treat us like we can't erupt, which is like the perfect ending line for this story, because what happens right after that, the main character actually does erupt. So we find him back on the roof this time he's drunk. And it kind of alludes to that. He's suicidal. He says, I say I jump, but I never do. So like this kid's suicidal. And then it may be my favorite line on the entire album.

He says, do they sew wings on tailored suits? Just like, here's one line that explains the entire concept of the song. We get wings, angel wings, guardian angels. No one's watching over this kid on his tailored suit, which implies his wealth. And then, you know, we get this line, I'm on that ledge, she grabs my arm, she slaps my head, it's good times. Sleeve rips off. I slip and I fall. So what, how does this person?

and die, his tailored suit, his wealth actually doesn't mean shit. It doesn't guarantee quality life. It rips off and that leads to his death. His wealth leads to his death. And so essentially the idea is like he chokes on his silver spoon. It's just I think like that shit is brilliant to me. Like it's absolutely brilliant. So it's like it's kind of like it fools you. It sounds like a rich kid, but it's actually exactly what the song is. It's like we should have it's implying that we should have empathy for these kind of people like the bass god was right we're all million dollar golden babies or whatever fuck he said oh the bass god quote yeah that's what he meant by it that's what it meant cole do you know do you listen to bass guy i doubt no no idea you don't know who little b is

i know little b i just don't listen to the music of course you're not based i knew you wasn't that's what he meant like everything you said was like super intelligent and you're right you're great at this. I'm not convinced. I'm not convinced. I know I'm on the wrong side of history. Like, I know everybody is going to be like, yo, why do you have them on the dissect feed? He hates super rich kids. Like, I know that's coming. Still, I'm standing on my one too. It's just like if I want to watch, like, if I want to watch or listen to a bunch of annoying rich kids getting fucked up and like hurting themselves, I'll watch euphoria. I'll have it way back. You know what I mean? It is kind of a precursor to euphoria. All right. So here, you can you can

shit on my pick next, but I have the superior song, obviously. Without thinking about you, there is no Frank Ocean. He would still be Lonnie Brew. We would never have heard of it. Hell no. No way. You're wrong. Like, you're wrong. Like, thinking about you, if this is not released, if he

does not make good on this song, there is not a Frank Ocean, okay? And here's the thing. I think people take this song, they're like, oh, it's a hit, but no, it's not really, like, if you go back and read what Frank wrote. Quote, I reminisced about the sentimental songs I enjoyed when I was a teenager, the ones I played when I experienced a girlfriend for the first time. I realized they were written in a language I did not yet speak. I think what makes thinking about you a way better

song than people give it credit for is that it's a song that has one foot in a traditional lineage of R&B while still holding that esoteric core that Frank would build upon. There's a reason that when he originally writes this for Bridget Kelly, when he was still writing for other musicians, actually, before I get into it, like, let's play Bridget Kelly's version, and then let's play a little bit of Franks, because you can see just in these two performances what makes Frank such a singular artist and why it is so hard, I think a lot of times, for other writers or other performers who sing his words. Let's play a little bit right now.

So when Frank drops his version on Tumblr, I think what you're starting to see with Frank is that he is such a specific writer. And the way he delivers what he is saying sells the music. music in a way that only he could. This has one of the best opening bars in just in the last 10, 15 years. A tornado flew around my room before you came. Excuse the mess it made. It usually doesn't rain in Southern California, much like Arizona. My eyes don't shed tears, but boy, they pour when. Like, you don't feel that shit in your core when you hear that cold? It's a great line. Come on. Like, that is like, for that to be the single that hits and to arrive,

and to arrive on the scene with that. Like, there's a reason why he sells that line. He's not doing acrobatics. He's not, like, he does not sound like the weekend when he's performing it. He's just delivering it to you in this very confessional way. And that is like the skeleton key of Frank Ocean. I, like, I will say this to Frank Ocean Space. I think there is a reason why he was a songwriter first.

Frank Ocean is not a true, what we know traditionally as a, super virtuoso R&B singer. He doesn't have that type of vocal range like that. But what he does have is a command over lyrics of narrative, of form. He thinks about this stuff way more than your average artist does. And I think what thinking about you, what makes it so beautiful, is that he is able to deliver a traditional R&B song but in the lyrics like

I don't love you like I don't love you I just thought you were cute that's why I kiss you got a fighter jet I don't get to fly it though I'm lying down is just so like who is doing that in a song how is Bridget Kelly going to sell that nothing against Bridget Kelly but like if you give that to another artist and you give that to a John legend it's not going to hit the same it's just not and that's a good point you know and I think that

But when I say that without thinking about you, there is no Frank Ocean, that's not me saying that he never gets to the talented heights of something like blonde. It's that you need this type of honey in the medicine. You need to give people a hit and feed it to them. And when you go back to listen to thinking about you, it unlocks a bunch of Frank Ocean. Because if you just go back to listen to nostalgia ultra now, you're like, wait, what? This is the guy? it's not going to really make sense.

This was the song that gets you played on Hot 97, get you played on Power 105. It's just, it's, Cole, can you tell me why you don't like this song? Like, what is it about this song

that you don't fuck with? So this is maybe where my personal experience of Frank comes into play, because I was introduced with Frank more or less by blonde. And so that hits everything that I love in music, experimental, crazy arrangements. It's just unpredictable moments everywhere. Things you just never have heard,

musically, vocally, like just, that's the stuff I love. And so when I go back to Channel Orange and it starts with thinking about you, this very subdued, like production-wise, just frankly boring. Like, it doesn't go anywhere,

which I get, that's the point. It doesn't go anywhere, but here's the thing. All right, but see, I can tell Cole, you don't like vibe music.

And normally I don't either, but this is if you like listen to the production, it has this like woozy, almost like revert like they're reversing like the the beat type of thing where to your point it's not that the song doesn't go anywhere it's that the song is settling you into an emotion it is settling you into a type of nostalgia to for lack of a better word and that's what I think makes this song so good because when we talk about nostalgia ultra we're also going to get into this idea of that at least the first two frankestowns.

ocean projects are him learning how to create a language for a new type of R&B star, where the way that Frank arranges his music and sings about his music is off-kilter for a reason, in my opinion, the things that I think a lot of R&B artists fall back on, whether anyone from a Genuine to a Tyrese or whoever, is this bravado. is this very horny horn dog sex. They're selling you that this person is the only person that they've ever thought of. And this is going to be a love and a sexual marriage that will last a lifetime. And thinking about you is doing that, but devoid of the acrobatics, devoid of the bravado.

And it's like it is actually a sweeter song. This is actually how I feel a lot when I'm thinking about the people that I've loved. loved where I'm just like, I'm just thinking about you. Like, I'm thinking about you. That's it. I'm not thinking about like fucking you for like 365 days of the year. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's a lot of songs. It's just like, no, I want your presence next to me.

And I'm trying to figure out what that means. And what I think also makes thinking about you a superior song, Cole. Okay? So you have to think about what's happening at this time. Social media is because, a thing. The internet is becoming a thing that controls our lives. Almost overnight, we go from communicating with people face to face, not looking at bricks of metal in our, in our fucking pockets,

to missing people because we're just tweeting at them or we're seeing them on Instagram. Like, this is a song that if it arrives five years later or five years before, I don't think it's a hit. it's a hit because he's starting to do what Drake was doing. And Weekend, Jeremiah, they're starting to sum up this type of feeling of a lost love or a lost connection of how we relate to other humans. And that's why I think it is a far superior song to the Tumblr Bro super racist. Now you can attack Nicole. Why is thinking about you lame? Well, let me tell you, like, I appreciate it from, like, it's not.

a bad. I respected it, very much respected as a songwriter. Like, it's very, and that's why it sticks out to me because it's very much like a song you wrote for someone else. Like it's cut and paste verse chorus, verse chorus, bridge chorus. Like, bridges are dope. Shout out to Tyler the creator. Chorus is even more dope. Come on, man. The bridges is the best part of the song. You don't, wait, you don't feel nothing when he hits that falsetto? You don't feel nothing? I know. I do. I like that part. It's not like I absolutely hate the song. It's just not what I want from Frank Ocean. It doesn't separate them enough from everyone else that where I'm like this, like, in this exercise, the last song standing, we have to pick the one song that Frank Ocean that represents who Frank Ocean is.

It cannot be this song. Like, it's not fully who he is. This is the origin story of Frank Ocean, the seeds of Frank Ocean that we know today. But it's not, it's not Frank Ocean. I'm going to be real, Colt. like I agree with you that like if this is the song like it can't be the song but if we're going to be real for the majority of the world this is the Frank Ocean song this is still his highest charting song like this is he has not eclipsed this single sense okay actually okay that

might not be true because historically I get you but you know lost has more streams than thinking about you I which is crazy here's TikTok had a TikTok had something to do with that but yeah It's crazy I lost his age. If we're talking about solo, if we're talking about like solo songs, I think that there are more people in the world who have heard thinking about you than any other, than any other Frank Ocean song. Probably. And that, that to me is a tragedy.

You just hate the hits, bro. Here's the thing. Cole, we know you like scaring the hose. Like, you're going to try to put on some like deep blonde cuts. And I'm just like, dog, just play. thinking about you. Like, come on. Let's have.

I played bad religion at the function. Oh, my gosh. Just ruining the whole bike. All right. So here's the thing. Let's recap. We both agreed with our first two picks, bad religion,

pyramids, and then we wildly diverged. You picked super rich kids. I picked thinking about you. So now that we've made the case for what songs from Channel Orange are in contention for Frank's best of all time, each of us must choose

our last song's standing, the song we're bringing with us to the season finale, Royal Rumble. We can't agree on the song. We're not doing like last season. Yeah. All right. Once that song is picked,

either of us have to pick another song. Now, technically, I kind of won the quiz, but not really. I'll give you first pick. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Wait.

Okay, before you make your pick, what, so, because people are going to be pissed me to talk about every song. We can't have the time, but what were close to your picks? Give me, like, rattle off your, you know, your five necks kind of go-to jams on your. Oh, man, you know, okay. I know that, like, he butchered the performance on the Grammys, and I might be a basic bitch for saying this.

I like Flores Gump. I love this song. I fucking love song. My fingertips in my lips, they burn from the cigarettes. I was listening to it again because I was just like, man, it's called Forrest Gump. It probably aged poorly. And I was listening to it. And I was just like, you know what?

This shit still hits. Like Forrest Gump, I think Lost is like a pretty good song. Like, I like Lost. I will say you want to know what songs absolutely just would not make it. We've already done monks. Pink Matter. I'm just not a fan of Pink Matter. I was almost one of my, I love.

That song. That song is so good. That song is so good. Pink matter. Pink matter stinks. I love that song. But you want to know what really stinks. Like this,

I feel bad because the story behind this song is like very, very sweet. Don't get me wrong. It's like very sweet. But I just, I almost skipped it every single time I was preparing for this. Not a big fan of crack rock. Yeah. I'm not even. You know, Pilot Jones into crack rock to me is, to your point,

the last half of the album went like pyramids lost monks but bad religion for us scump the last half this album was a lot stronger than the first half if we're going to be honest yeah yeah i just love the progression of it too like thinking about you is it is a very pertinent conceptually it's such the perfect kickoff to the album because it sets the stage for everything you know this guy that's always on his mind that it keeps returning to and then it kind of you know and that's a more put together song

followed by fertilizer, this upbeat interlude. And then slowly over time, like the album kind of deteriorates and gets dark. It's kind of like blonde. It gets a little bit darker and darker and darker as it goes. And I just love that narrative progression. And the cool thing is, too, just since we talked about Force Gump, like, it does come full circle because I've been thinking about you

is essentially the same expression of, you run my mind boy. Like, it's the same concept. And then here at the end, we went through all, you know, we went through this whole album and here he is still thinking about this guy. Here he is still saying, you run my mind boy. And it's just like, and then we get the conversation in the car at the end. It's just like conceptually very, very cool album.

I mean, even those, even the whistling part at the end of Forrest Trump, like just. I was literally whistling in my car today. It just puts you in just such a good mood. Like it's like to your point where it's just like bad religion to pink matter, it gets really like just, it, it, it, it, brings the album down in terms of just like the mood. Yeah. And like Forrest Gump just sends you off on such a like high note. I really love Forrest Gump.

It's really, I mean, but it's, and it's so Frank Ocean thematically because we'll definitely talk about this on blonde, but like Frank's whole thing is like nostalgia, warm memories of the past, making bad memories good just by remembering him and like appreciating the experience good or bad. And that, that was a moment in my, you know, like, and it's so to, to get to the end of the album and have that feeling after all that we experienced, you know, it's, it's such a warm orange feeling. Like, we leave the album feeling orange. It's like, perfect. Oh, I could not agree more. So, here. All right. So, yeah, hit me with your pick. You have to pick. So you made a

really, really good observation. I was leaning thinking about you because I'm just like, hey, this is the one if I was like making a list of the greatest Frank Ocean songs. If I was thinking about I'm just like this needs to be on the list just because it's his first hit. But fuck that. This is our show. We're the last song standing, all right? This ain't the little bitch boy standing. You know what I'm saying?

I'm going fucking pyramids, bro. Let's fucking go. Pyramids. Hell yeah. I'm so happy that you picked that song. Oh my God. Okay. Here's a thing.

You're really good at this goal. Because the minute you were just like, hey, like thinking about you cannot be the song. that we pick. I was like, dog, that would be a basic ass song for us to, in the season.

We're like, thinking about you. I was just like, no, run out of here. So I'm picking fucking pyramids. And I know which one you're picking. I already know. Super rich kids, baby.

Wait, what? You're a way, what? I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Your face. I was just like,

dog, and go ass don't pick bad religion so we can wrap this shit up, bro. I was like to quit this pod on the first. No, it's got to be bad religion. Oh, my God.

We're not making the same mistake and not choosing Sing About Me that we did last year. I got to pick Bad Religion. It's the sing about me of the album. Arguably the best moment on the album. Definitely the most core emotional moment on the album. That's what we love Frank Ocean for. These are the feelings Frank Ocean give us that no one else can. Bad religion all day for me.

Oh, man. I'm feeling really, really good. Okay, guys, we did it. Cole picked bad religion. I picked pyramids. I think we're starting off on a good note. Like, I'm feeling really, really good. I think, no, I'm not going to, I'm not going to say anything.

Because if I'm just like, I'm feeling good, Frankosha fans would be like, I hate them had they not pick super rich kids. But yo, Cole, why don't you take us out in like, and thank everybody who makes, who makes this podcast possible. Yeah, man. We got to definitely plug. You guys can make your voice.

has heard on the Spotify episode page. After every episode, you can vote on what song that you would like to see as your last song standing. So just look at the episode page on Spotify. You can cast a vote. We might talk about it. Also, you guys can tweet at us or tag us or whatever, social media at Disseq Podcast or Charles X Holmes.

Should we reveal what album we're doing next week? Let's do it. Let's reveal what album we're doing next week. All right. Next week, we're going back to the very beginning. we're going nostalgia ultra nostalgia ultra mixtape but you know this is what put frank on the map so we're going back

nostalgia ultra we might talk about a little odd future we might talk about a little Lonnie bro but yeah thanks to executive producer here Justin Sales audio production by our boy Kevin Pooler and theme music this season is by the great B-Rocratic hell yeah all right guys if you have lasted this long through the podcast, it is time for honestly the best part.

Last year, Cole, you would say that we had a cultural exchange, if you will. I would give Cole a TV show, a song, an album. He would trade with me as well to hopefully understand each other better as friends. So this year, I'm going to go first. I've created an entirely new bit. It is called the PBR&B syllabus. Cole, correct me if I'm wrong. You're not a big fan of R&B.

Generally speaking is not what I put on very regularly or if at all. Frank Ocean is about as far as I go. A little black every once in a while, you know. What? No? Black? The first album, no? Black?

Okay. What? All right, man. All right. What? we, I'm about to put your ass on. Hell, fucking yeah. Justin, turn on your fucking mic, though.

This is our time. The PBR. All right. So, before we get into it, Justin, like, how would you describe the phrase PBR and B, which is not like a phrase that anybody should love? It's like a dumb phrase. Even in the moment, I was just like, fuck this. But, hey, it's the same as like SoundCloud rap.

It means nothing and everything. So how would you describe PBR and B to our listening? Well, we got to talk about the etymology for. second and it's just pbr like the beer that hipsters like and then rmb so the whole idea is this is rmb that hipsters can like and back in 2011 around the time that nostalgia ultra and uh the weekend's first mixtape house of balloons dropped a writer a writer that i i like very much eric harvey um he's a legend written for a lot of places, including the ringer. He coined the phrase PBR&B, and it kind of took on to the point, you know, it's got a

Wikipedia page. It was in, it was a whole marketing buzz type deal. Some people who... And it was a tweet. Like, I think it was just like a dumb tweet that he like threw out there. And then one of our own, love him on the big pick. Like, even Sean Fennessey was writing about it when he still wrote about music. Like this was like a...

So the whole thing is you brought up the SoundCloud rap comparison. And it's kind of like that in that there's no real unifying sound. Like, House of Balloon. and nostalgia ultra are not very similar in sound or scope or vibe, right? It's just... Exactly, or like Jeremiah.

Like, Jeremiah is not... Well, but the... Like Frank Ocean or... But, but, but, but... Jeremiah fits into this category, and this is where the funny thing comes. Jeremiah only fits into this category starting in 2012.

If you go back to the birthday sex error, people weren't really messing with him like that. Again, people were not messing with Jeremiah. in this realm. He was popular. Birthday sex, I think, might still be like his most popular song. Cole, are we losing you by talking about Jeremiah, right? Yeah, I'm just going to say, I'm fucking lost, dude. What the fucking

You're lost? Wow! This is why we're doing the PR, BBR&B. So we're off to a bad start. So basically, it was just hipster-friendly, critic-friendly R&B that came out in the early 2010s. And you had stuff like The weekend? Miguel,

Frank Ocean. Jeremiah in 2012 flipped over into this category with his excellent tape, which I assume we will be talking about at some point. But yeah, it's R&B approved by hipsters who thought they were probably too good to listen to stuff like Usher. Yes, it was a little, if we're going to be clear, it was a little racist. It was like every white person who was writing about music being like, hey, have y'all heard about this genre R&B?

It's no longer just for black folks. We can listen to it too. Definitely had a little bit of that. I was a little pissed. But anyway, that was a long explainer. Justin, you're going to love what my first pick is. Okay. Okay, yeah.

I need the intro. Give me the PBNR, B, whatever to fuck, for dummies. Let me open a can of PBR, Kevin. Yeah, Kevin, give us a sound effect. All right. So this is an album that I've listened to this week. I want to start you, like, in the dirt bag arena, in the like, I know Cole isn't going to fuck with this, but that's why I'm picking it.

And let's you say, welcome to. the party. Welcome, baby, welcome. Hell yeah. P&D number one, party next door's first fucking album. That's the first fucking album we're going. I need to listen to the whole mix tape. It's on Spotify right now, bro. Party Next Door's first project. I believe it's like 25. What's it called? It's not a long project. It's just party next door. It's just, it's just self-title. It's just literally self-title party next door. Okay, okay. I'm so excited for going to listen to this. he's going to be so mad. I like,

Cole, this is where people are going to kill me. We started this Frank Ocean shit because, like, I love Frank Ocean. Blonde is like, if I'm talking about like the albums that made me,

like my top five albums, like on an island, I'm taking blonde. That's how much Frank Ocean means to me. I like the first party next door record more than I like Channel Orange. Now I'm a little excited. All right.

All right. So, Cole, I believe that you also have a recurring bit for our cultural exchange. What is it? Yeah, so last season, I introduced you to a little, just dipped your toes in the water of classical music. I showed you some Beethoven. I showed you some Bella Bartok, which is like the more experimental atonal side.

This, so we're going to, we're going to, I wanted to keep this theme a little bit because there is a lot to explore, but we are going to focus mostly on the 20th century. Classical music, probably my favorite era. This is where shit gets just fucking weird. And so, have you ever heard of minimalism music? Yes. But explain it to me because I want to know what mindset I need to go into when I'm listening to your pick. So minimalism is as it kind of implies, like it's very to the novice listener or just on the surface feels very simple. You know, there's not much there.

And a lot of the times they'll just have like it'll just, the whole piece will surround like be based on like a three note like riff. Like a do do do do do. like the simplest thing you could ever possibly think of. But then the composer starts to layer and layer and layer and layer all these short bits, all these short musical phrases start to stack up on each other and create these really, really gorgeous textures that just, you know, the song doesn't quote, I mean, goes places, but not in the typical way that you would think music goes places. It's very much just these washes of sound.

It's probably my favorite genre of music just hands down. I love, I just love the mindset that it puts me in. So I'm going to start you with my favorite minimalist composer, Steve Reich. And I don't know if it's my favorite piece by him, but it's probably his most popular. And it's definitely a great introduction. It's called Music for 18 musicians. As it implies, it's, you know, it's orchestral-ish instrumentation. But I wanted you specifically, at least to start with the video.

I'll send you the link and I'll post the link on our social media so people that want to check it out too. Because you have to see how these sounds are produced. When you first hear it, you're going to be like, is this like computer electronics? No, this is all orchestra instruments creating these sounds. And it's definitely like widely considered one of the most influential pieces of the 20th century in terms of classical music. It's really what put minimalism on the map, on the pop, kind of as popular as classical music can be nowadays. It's really what brought minimalism as a serious genre. So Steve Reich, music for 18 musicians, that's your first assignment.

If you had to give me a modern musical comparison, like to get my mind right, like either an artist or whoever, like a producer, is there anybody that like I would be like, this is the feeling, even if it's not the sound. This is like the feeling. You know, it's really funny. And it's really weird. It might be even PBR-ish. Because the first thing people I thought of was LCD sound system. Really? Because what LCD sound system does a lot of the times you think of like all my friends.

It's that weird piano thing that just loops and then they put a dance beat behind it. Imagine that way more complex, but that kind of weird, hypnotic kind of repetition with no dance beat. And then it's just way better musically. So I don't know, maybe that helps. Oh, that helps. Guys, you've heard. You've heard our cultural exchange. by next week.

We want y'all to be cracking a PBR. Listen to both of our songs. And we'll be back. Thank y'all so much. Hell, yeah. Woo!