Dissect - 'CHROMAKOPIA' | LAST SONG STANDING (E6)

Episode Date: August 4, 2026

The journey to crown Tyler The Creator's best song ever continues with his most personal album to date CHROMAKOPIA. Charles and Cole talk through the albums themes, quiz each other with trivia, and nominate the songs they believe should be in contention for Tyler's best. Follow @dissectpodcast on⁠ Instagram⁠,⁠ TikTok⁠, and⁠ Twitter⁠. Hosts: Cole Cuchna & Charles Holmes Producer: Justin Sayles  Editor: Kevin Pooler Engineer: Sarah Reddy Theme Music: Birocratic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome everyone to Last Long Standing. I'm Kolkusha. And I'm Charles Holmes. And in this fifth season of Last Song Standing, we are taking a journey through the entire discography of Tyler the creator in order to crown the greatest Tyler song of all time. Last episode, we unpacked 2021's Call Me If You Get Lost. And today, diving into Tyler's most personal album to date. Okay. 2024's Chromacopia. Hell yeah. So I am I so excited for this episode because I don't feel I know Chromacopi is an album that I might have disregarded when it came out and this is one that you and the Tyler head swear by.

So I am actually, as I was listening to the project, I'm like, oh, we're going to have a whole. fun fucking episode. Well, my spirit is good, Charles. Let me just tell you. I've been reborn since the last time I saw you. Reborn? Yeah. What happened?

I saw Rosalia in concert. Speak on it. Dog. Where does it stack up in terms of just like concerts just that you've seen in your lifetime? So the show was in Oakland and I spent my entire one and a half hour drive home thinking about that exact question and it's number one. Number one.

Number one. it goes number one, Rosalia Lux tour. Okay. Number two, Kanye West Yeez's tour. Wait, this was over Yeezus? Yep. God damn. And number three, Mr. Morale tour.

In terms of, like, I've had maybe better experiences at some concerts, but in terms of production, what really takes it over the top for Rosalia is her voice live. Oh. It's fucking insane. It's so beautiful. And moving and she's doing ballerina stuff. every song was a music video.

It was, so I felt like, it was like a spiritual experience that I left a changed man. I love hearing this. I saw Rosalia at Lollapalooza once before. Like I had heard the name, maybe heard some records,

and it wasn't until I did hear singing live, that I became a, like every single album, because it's just the run she goes on, the, like the operatic influences, everything. She's just an amazing performer. Yeah.

Fuck, I can't believe I missed this. I would have, yeah, it was like, it was one of the, it was the last show she did in the States because I went online. The first thing I did was like, where is she playing next? I'm going to travel to go see this show again. It was like Columbia or something. So I can't, yeah. Anyway, it's not a, I had to give this shout out. It's not a Rosalia podcast, but I'm feeling good. It's, you look reborn and refreshed and I am literally like a rotting corpse of myself. I just got back from San Diego. I just saw Spider-Man. I am just kind of just like. I am just awash in the juices of Comic-Con, and that is not how I would like to live my life. All right, well, a little pile of cleanse.

Should we go over our list before we get into chromicopia? Absolutely. All right. You go first. All right. So our list's getting pretty big. We're round in the corner on the season. So from the top, I have bastard title track.

She, answer, Cherry Bomb title track, garden shed, new magic wand. And last episode, I went with Lumberjackoff. Call me if you get lost. And what do you got? Very basic list compared to mine. I have French yonkers, Bimmer, Buffalo, Hootap Boy, Gone, Gone, Thank you, Lemonhead. And then in a very savvy move on our part, the coach's challenge was used last episode. Justin, you picked Earthquake. Are you still feeling good about that?

Again, I was boxed into taking it. You guys knew that we couldn't go into a finale without. earthquake. So I had to do what I had to do. For the team, admirable. But I think there's some songs on Chromacopia that we'll see how it plays out, but there's some important songs in this record. So you're ready to get into it? Actually, let's recap the rules. Okay. And then we're going to get into Chromacopia because my take is going to be, I think, a little bit different than what you're expecting about this record. So for those who have forgotten, each episode of Last Song Standing covers one Tyler album, where Charles and I are both

forced to pick the best song off of that album, aka the last song Standing. Then in our season finale, we have our Royal Rumble where we'll bring the songs we've chosen from each album, and they'll duke it out until we can both agree on the single greatest title of the creator song of all time. Question, do you have one in your mind?

I don't want to know what it is, but is there one that you're like, okay, it's kind of this is the first season. Sorry, y'all. It's been a long day. Shout out to Ice Monk. Anyway,

no, and I think that's good. Like, in other seasons, I've had like one or two going in that I'm like, I'm really going to fight for. Yeah. And it does. It has changed like every single day.

I'm like, this is the first time I'm going into one of our finale's being like, ooh, I'm going to have to listen to every single song with a fine tooth comb. Yeah. That's what's been really fun about this season. Even seeing some of the interaction online, there's just not a consensus. And there's a few songs on our list that really surprised me. There is one privately, I'm kind of, it feels like the one to beat, but I also think there's a one to beat on this album. So do you think part of this is also because Tyler has

So many eras So depending upon when You got on the odd future train It might be yonkers It might be something like new magic wand And I think even Tyler in his career And we'll talk about it with this album He's also not at war

But sometimes I feel like he's pushing against His fans keeping him in one era Because he always constantly wants to like grow and change Yeah And push the boundaries Well I think a lot of of it's experiential. I mean, all music is this way, but like you seemed more fond of the early Tyler because that's like you're younger and you're kind of experiencing that in real time.

Yeah. Where I came a little bit later, so I have less of an attachment to those songs, but I'm really attached to like a flower boy more than you because that was my really getting to know Tyler and falling in love with him. So that's what's interesting in an exercise like this because you kind of have to like balance personal with objective and. Yeah. Let's not spoil too much of the finale pod, but I'm excited. Hell yeah. Ready to get into Krumiko?

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Juicy but not sweet. Hoppy, but not bitter. America's best-selling Hazy IPA for good reason. Hazy Little Thing. Enjoy responsibly. Yo, let's get into Chromacopia. we got some album facts to get into. Chromocopia's Tyler's eighth studio album released on October 28th,

2024. The 14 Song Project features collaborations from Lowell Wayne, Sexy Red, Daniel Caesar, Dochi, Tizo Touchdown, School Oaksue, among others, and produced three singles, Noid Sticky Like Him. The album debuted at number one on the Billboard 200, selling 299,000 copies in its first week, and Chromacopia went on to receive five nominations at the 68th Grammy Awards, including Album of the Year, Best for Album of the Year,

and best rap song, among others, yeah. Took a L to G&X. I think GNX is a better record, but I don't think the gap was as wide as I would have thought before I went back to give Chromacopia another spin. Pause that because I want to hear that take, but we should also know this was released on a Monday for the first time. Yes, yes, yes.

Or Monday night. So it was kind of a quote unquote Tuesday release, I think. Which is how it was for the bulk of my example. as a music fan. And because I am Tyler same age, I do think that we probably, along with a lot of people, missed that feeling of I remember when a new album would drop on Tuesday. And like I had one of those like dumb email jobs where I could just listen to the new album for a week. And I think Tyler was right because this ended up being one of his biggest selling albums ever. There is a difference between getting to spend a work week with an album versus just a weekend. Competing with the

weekend. I used to go to like Sam Goody or like Best Buy or every Tuesday. It was just like whatever, whatever came. And at that time, too, you didn't really even know all that came out until you went to the store. For me, it was like buying like every new no limit record release, no matter the artist was just I had a stack of no limit. I think we should go back to Tuesday. I think it would like, it would reinvigorate just the industry and people's love of music. Justin, do you have a take on this? Do you prefer the Tuesday release versus the Friday drops? The only time I ever remember the Friday drop really mattering, and this was actually a leak, and I think to me this was kind of a predecessor to the Friday drop, was that Friday in June 2013 when Yeezis leaked.

Oh, yeah. Remember that? But look, I prefer Tuesdays. Yeah. It's the way it was when I was growing up. Friday still doesn't feel right. I'm already checked out for the week, you know? Yeah.

You need that time to ramp up for the weekends, so you know where you're going to be listening to. Like, bring it back to Tuesday. Let's do it. And also you want to know what a Tuesday drop gave you when I was younger and I was going out. If it was like a big record, like a Kanye or Jay-Z record, it was like by the weekend when you're like either hanging out with your friends or going to a party. It's like, we all have finally picked the one that we love. And at least you could like sing along with the choruses. Yes.

Yeah. Okay. So let's go themes. Some heavy themes on Chromacopia. I would say, do you feel like this is the most personal album to date? Yes. And I was actually surprised. going back to it where I thought Flower Boy or something like Igor still would be the ones.

And I was like, oh, no, this is your grown and sexy. I'm 30. Yeah. So the album concept started when he was riding bikes around Hawthorne during COVID, seeing his old neighborhoods. And then he came up with this question, asking himself, what is home? Is it a place? Is it an idea? Is it inside you?

Is it certain people in your life? And essentially the album, it operates under that umbrella. What is home? What does it mean? And so chromocopia is actually the name Tyler gives home on the album. So chroma means purity or intensity of color, which I think is actually really interesting because you can think about this as intense color or purity. If you're thinking about this idea of home and how do you maintain this idea of home as you age,

which is what this album essentially is, you can think about purity in that. that way as well, maintaining a sense of purity in the face of life challenges. And then copia is like abundance. So chromocopia meaning color or purity and abundance. And this is what he gives his child. I think he's calling his home chromocopia because in the opening song on this album really spells out the entire concept pretty clearly. And he says, I was blown shit back up in chromocopia.

So it could be his home or his name. neighborhood, but essentially it's this idea of home that is abundant with light and is pure. And light is also another key motif introduced on St. Chroma as well. The album begins with Tyler's mother saying the light is inside you, not on you. She ends this opening speech with don't ever dim your light for anybody. And the refrain of that song is, can you feel the light inside? Can you feel that fire? And so this is very, this is a kind of a motif that runs through Tyler's entire career, especially starting with Cherry Bomb, which is this idea of an authentic self that you stay true to. And Tyler kind of sets up the main conflict of this album, also on the end of

St. Chroma, the opening track where he says, Mir got me thinking about my book in, thinking about his death, do I keep the light on or do I gracefully bow out? And so this becomes kind of the question that he's trying to answer. And you can kind of view the rest of the album through that lens. So when we hear songs about relationships, about commitment, about fatherhood, about fame. It's all under this umbrella of, am I staying true to myself throughout this journey? And ultimate, or throughout the entire project, we hear the voice of his mother, serving as his kind of quote-unquote guiding light through his life's challenges. And then ultimately ends on kind of return to the beginning where we hear him say, keep shining, the light comes from within, I hope you find your way home.

These ideas are all synonymous. Chromacopia is the light within. The light within is home and home is chromocopia. And this is kind of essentially the conclusion of the album. Does that make sense? Doug, come on. You're dissected a little bit there. Do you think, okay, so let me ask you.

I'm dissected, but it's like, I think when you really hone in on the album, that is, it is a pure record in terms of there's not as much obfuscation or hiding theme. or what, like, he's very just telling the stories right straight to you. It's funny how, to me, this ends in era for Tyler in a lot of ways. Instead of it being like Dr. T.C. being his conscious, he has his mom and her words. And it kind of like ties this whole, it's a unified kind of theory of like, oh, all of these lessons were always there. And I was just like, oh, that's beautiful.

Like, yeah, the way he like recontextualizes his mother's lessons. in a way that reflects, I think, everyone's experience growing up if you had good parents, which was like the shit that they say to you now, which is what I'm saying to my kids right now that they hate hearing, you're like, you know, you get into your 30s and you're like, ah, it makes, it all starts to click. And also, we'll talk about this a little bit later with one of my nominations,

but it is also Tyler seeing his mom as a human being, which I think is another kind of thing that we experience as we grow older, which is parents are either superheroes or failures, and if you mature in a certain way, and hopefully come to the realization that they're just flawed human beings, just like everyone else, which I think is kind of reflects Tyler's kind of maturation over time, which has been one of the coolest things about this exercise

is experiencing Tyler's maturation over, I mean, this, we should actually talk about, this breaks his traditional album cycle. So, the space between Call Me If You Get Lost and Chromacopia is three years, over three years, which is breaks his tradition of releasing an album every other year. It also, he stops doing the split 10 track, track 10 double song thing. So that feels to me a little bit symbolic of like a new era to your point, you know, where I do think he is breaking away from some of the traditions that he built for himself. And I think a lot of that was kind of liberating for him as an artist.

As we'll talk about next episode with something like Don't Tap to Glass was also another act of breaking a certain pattern and finding this freedom that I think feels true to the premise of this album of just staying true to his authentic self and just doing what he wants to do. It's funny that both Chromacopi and GNX were released in, very similar time periods because to me, they are very, they are West Coast albums. They are coming home albums. Tyler S. talked about it. But his delivery on a lot of these records, he's letting his L.A. accent come out more. Don't tap the glass. He's going back to his childhood and bringing forth a lot of the dance, the black dance music that he was hearing as a kid.

And it was so funny listening to Chromacopoeia where I was like, oh, this is a synthesis of flower boy, Igor, call me if you get lost, where to me this is like, I mean this stylistically, this is a major label rap album. It is Tyler doing the graduation. It is him making sense of I can, I bring contemporaries like Glorilla or Sexy Red or Dochi, people that I either inspired. or inspiring me, but I could still have low lane on it. I can incorporate Daniel Caesar

and Tizo touchdown. And that's probably why I dismissed it maybe when it first came out because I was like, oh, this is your like real, real pop record. And with distance,

I was like, damn, but these pop records are so good. Like, they are so lush and to hear how much he's grown, we will talk about it. A lot of the songs I'm going to pick

are like this, it's not just that like Tyler makes good beats anymore. He is a phenomenal pop producer. Yeah. Some of the shit he's doing on this record. I was like, God damn. Okay, so I'm glad you said that. And I think we're going to kind of meet in the middle here because, as you know, throughout this, I've kind of been pumping up this album.

I haven't returned to it in months, actually. So this was a really interesting exercise for me in terms of, I think I had the opposite experience where in my head it was, I had it near the top of his discography. I think it's still towards the top for me, but I think it, I wouldn't say it is aged badly. It's just not as maybe as good as I remembered it. Okay. But I remember, I mean, I still do love exactly what you said about this record, which is, and that's why I was so high on it in the beginning, was that production-wise, songwriting-wise, I think you can make, even if it's not my favorite title of the creator album, I think you can make a case it is technically. his best in terms of producer, songwriting, all the technical stuff.

Stylistically, yeah, maybe you prefer an Igor or a flower boy or whatever. But if I'm just putting my technical, objective kind of like analysis kind of mind to this record, it's like phenomenal. Songs like Darling Eye, which I think we'll talk about, just the arrangements are so dynamic and effortless, you know, and it is a, you know, to use the copia, it is a kind of a cornicopia of all of his sounds. So if you go to like Flower Boy, Igor, call me if you go to a loss, they're more compartmentalized in their sounds.

Each one has their own world. It still feels like Tyler, but it's like more singular where I think chromocopia does a great job of synthesizing all of that into one package for the first, I think for something you really trying to do on Cherry Bomb, but really nails it on Chromocopia. This is a spiritual successor to Cherry Bomb to me in a lot of ways where he goes lot of different different ways with the music and the production,

but he is so much more adept at knowing how to produce a record. His sing, to me, people, like, his singing is the best on this record. I'm like,

no, if you go and listen to how he's, like, singing and building melodies, to me, it's even better than his performance, than a lot of his performances on Igor. He's so much more confident.

Yeah. Same thing with his rapping. His delivery and dexterity, he is so much just like, sharp. Yeah. Even if you don't like a song like a Judge Judy, right?

I can see some people just not liking a song like that. This is not one of my favorites. Right. But you would have to say that idea is executed very well. Yeah. Right. And I think that's across the board on this album is

you can say that about essentially every song. It's like even if it's not your preference, technically these are great. There's not a bad song on this record, I don't think. And so that's, so it's like, While on my revisiting of the album, it did kind of fall where I think I, like in my head, it used to be like, okay, Igor, Chromacopia, neck and neck for like my top spot.

Revisiting, I think Igor is going to be my clear number one after this exercise. And chromocopia kind of fell. But that is not to discredit what I think this album is exemplifying. Before we get to the quiz part, I think what did not work about this record and it's not I think it's just more of a taste thing. A lot of what Tyler's rapping about on this record is just not as sexy in terms of like he's turning 30. His friends are are getting pregnant. He doesn't know what to do.

He's paranoid about being rich. It is, it's relatable because probably I'm the same age. Ew, I don't want to hear things. And that's nothing against him. I'm just like, I like that. It's so honest. But I think it's the same thing with like Jay Z's 444. where I'm like, you know, you needed to make this record.

This is a great record, but it is. It has the morale effect where it's like, in my mind, morale is a fucking incredible album, but is it the album that I returned to the most from Kendrick's catalog? No. And I think Chromacopia has a little bit of that. And I think a lot of that actually has to do with the sequencing. One of the things that I think there is a, I think there is a sequence on here that would be, if you rearrange some of the song, uh, sequences, I think,

there's a more palatable record on here. Yeah. But going from a darling eye to, hey, Jane, I killed you and Judge Judy, that stretch I can see a lot of people tuning out on. That's the stretch that got hard for me. Exactly. But then he gets you back with sticky. And then I think it picks up back with the red, but he could have spaced those songs out.

But then in my mind, I'm like, well, thematically, well, one, I think he just wanted to make a record like this that wasn't so obviously a palatable. wanted those personal stories to be featured, right? Not just buried at the end. And when you look at conceptually, I think he prioritized some of the sequencing to kind of play into themes because like darling eyes about being not being monogamous, kind of sleeping around or having relationships with a lot of people, but then he follows that with Hey Jane, which is a pregnancy scare. Yeah. So you get that dichotomy of like the kind of promiscuousness followed by a Hey Jane, which I think thematically works really well. But darling guy takes you on such a journey.

You're on this high that you're like with Hage and you're like. Right. Exactly. Which I think it was an artful decision. Is it the most commercially appealing? Maybe not. But I think, yeah, just revisiting all these choices were kind of stuck out a little bit more than when it first released. But Justin, I want to bring you in here to see if you, because you're more on Charles's and where this kind of bounced off you.

I'm curious how you feel about it now. I wonder how much of that was just like what was going. I remember October 2024 being a particularly busy period of my life. So maybe you have to accept some of that because this is all experiential. It's all in the context for lives, right? I never thought it was a bad record. Revisiting it, I think this is very clearly in the top half of Tyler's discography. I might even, depending on how it shakes out the rest of the season, I think it's,

probably like third or fourth in his discography for me. Top five easily to me. It's a great record. I think it's an eight out of ten record, eight and a half out of ten. It's phenomenally crafted. One of the things, and I was saying this to you before we began, Cole,

so much of Tyler's career has been about the narrative, right? Every album has had this narrative attached to it. The early albums, we know what the narrative was from there with these young upstarts. all the, all the violent imagery, whatever. Then it was the transitional phase, your cherry bomb. Then you get into, oh, Tyler's growing up, you know, flower boy, Igor.

Call me if you get lost, it's kind of like, well, this is, you know, it's a rap album. He's really going for it, and he's still showing some of that growth. He is showing more growth here. He is revisiting a lot of subjects that he's touched on. He is exploring new areas. The songwriting is improved. of the production is phenomenal. There's a lot of growth here.

But I think if you're not like a Tyler head, if you're not just one of those people who's like incredibly locked in, if you're just a person who likes, call me if you get lost, you follow in his career, you follow the singles. The narrative isn't as firm around this record.

And I think that might be why it bounced off some people, including myself. Okay. It's a great record, though. Okay, so should we dive into Quizmin if you get lost? Come on. All right. Let's do it.

it. Trivia. Okay, so, man, it's neck and neck, Charles. I'm worried. I went easier on this one because I felt like I was getting too difficult. Let me update the listeners with the tally so far because we're nearing the finale. You have seven total points for the season. I have 6.5.

So these last two quizzes on these, we've got three episodes left, including this one. So this is going to carry a lot of weight. Justin, do you have the prize picked out? I hope you do because we're... Yeah, I do. Okay. We've hit some snafus, but I think we'll be in for a fun little, a fun little journey in the finale.

All right. Let's go. So I got three questions for you. You want to go first or you want me for you want to be... I'll go first. Okay. All right. Softball.

To promote chromocopia, Tyler set up a truck and company that toured the West and East Coast. Yep. In which state did fans deface the truck with graffiti? Oh, I don't know. this actually. That's cool. Arizona. Really? Yeah, no, in Arizona, like spray painting the truck and like putting stickers on it. And I guess they had to go get it clean. It's like, was it respectful, like a cool, did you see the pictures? I saw the pictures. It was, I will say, I think Tyler still has younger fans. So it was on the more respectful. Okay, that's cool. Yeah, I like that. First, I was like,

oh, they vandalized it. But I'm like, wait, can you vandalize it if you're a fan? It'd be kind of cool. like add to it. Okay, good question though. All right. First question for you, Charles. Tyler foreshadowed Chromocopias alter ego St. Chroma in what music video released almost two years before the album dropped. So the military suit, the green military suit is foreshadowed in one of his videos. Two years ago. I'm not, I'm just going to go. So he's cheating. No, I'm going to Spotify. Half, okay. I'm just looking at...

We're deducting a half point. How? I'm going to Spotify. I'm trying to see two years ago. But that two years ago would have been around, would have been around like the call me if you get lost era. I'm saying nothing. There's no cell phones on who wants to be a millionaire.

That's all I'm going to say. I'm half point deducting. This is not a half point deduction. This fucked up. All right. No. Lumberjack. What was it?

Sorry, not sorry. So we'll put the image up on the screen here but the very first thing as you're getting ushered into this museum that the video takes place in, you see the green military suit greeting the people that are coming into the museum. Pretty cool. That means, yeah, this alter ego planned out years ahead.

I would love, if I ever get the chance to interview Tyler, I have so many questions for him that no one's asked him. One of which would be, how do you develop your characters? How far out do you do this? How do you plan? Because one thing we haven't talked about really is how clean his all his releases have been since really Cherry Bomb in terms of like I announced the album on this date. And usually it's like two weeks and it's coming out on this date. I've got all my music videos made.

I got my character ready. I got the merch ready. Like everything's fucking like to the T organized. So when I see stuff like that Easter egg in a video that's released two years before the album drops, I'm like, how far is he? Didn't he say he started working on this album like 2020? I believe. He was inspired in 2020 conceptually. I'm not sure when he made the music.

But I think it was already because that trip that he took back to Hawthorne happened during COVID. COVID, yeah. So, yeah. But when did he do the alter ego? Is that inspired by the music? Is that totally separate? These are the questions I have for him. All right.

This is another softball. Okay. Where did the inspiration for the character St. Kroma's hair come from? That is it great. question that I definitely used to know. Were they archived photos? There were, there, I will say,

maybe. Okay, I'm not going to try to guess because if I, okay, what, is that deserving of a half point? No. Okay. Tell me then. So back during COVID, he told the story on Hot 97. He was taking a shower. Obviously, you couldn't go get.

your haircut. So he's talking about how all of his friends, it inspired like, um, talking about his hair because it was growing. And he was saying when he was shampooing his hair, he kind of, it was like spread in a, in like these weird ways in those cones. And he showed the photos. He's like, I took a, I got out of the shower immediately, took a photo of it. And he was showing all of, uh, okay. Like Peter Rosenberg and Ebro, like, I had envisioned like, I'm going to use this on the next album. speaking towards like in 2020 he's like all right I'm going to start making something like this and this is the hair I'm using and I thought that was cool okay what I'm remembering is people looking at that hair and then pulling archival photos of like African hair styles yes yeah so I think I miss because he brought that up where people he was just like he's like I'm not saying that that wasn't in the suit but he was just like it was that moment of seeing myself with that hair okay cool come on nice question I love it uh this is a great question that But it's probably a softball, but it's a fun one. On the original chromocopia of vinyl, the test pressing,

the song, Thought I Was Dead, contained a feature verse that did not make the final version of the album. Who is the featured artist on? It was definitely Playboy Carty, right? Yeah. Go. Great. Point for you, but do you have you heard it?

I don't, I think I might have heard it originally when it came out, but I haven't. I didn't hear it until just. Can you play a little? I got a keyed up for you. Have you heard this, Justin? I have not. Oh, me, just got to die. I was dead.

I can't kick it. I ain't got no legs. Chbias got me douching out of face. I'm not in there, I'll sit. A lot of the door, put the keys on my neck. Still, pop my shit outside. I ain't doing for the ground of the middle. Feeling like a zimpy.

I can't miss. Don't lot clean. Let's go fish. Trying to move like us. The shoes don't fit. No, I'm out of circle. I really live. Okay. In a vacuum, kind of sick. Does it fit the song, though?

Yes. It would have made the song, because I really like that song. I'm not going to lie. Like, Schoolboy Q's verse on that is incredible. Yeah. I love that song. Why are you walking to the party with your butt pierce? Now, can I add what song? Did it Tyler send a little bit of a jab at Playboy? Okay, this is all quote unquote speculation, allegedly stuff, but it's pretty clear that Playboy Cardi or his team threatened to sue. Yes. Like, or cease and desisted that verse.

It didn't get approved or something. And then Tyler tweeted about it, said this friend that I used to make music with threatened to sue me over a verse. And so it got dropped. And that's pretty much the only candidate, I think, on the, so. So you like the verse? You think it fits? Playboy, you was wild in.

Playboy's team, you're wilding. Justin, did you like, did you think it fit the song? I'm kind of like, I liked it in a vacuum. But when Tyler comes back in, I'm just like, is this? fit? Yeah, I mean, look, I don't know. I, sure. I don't have a lot of, I don't have a lot to say about it. I mean, it was cut. That's fine. All right. It was, it was there. That's also fine. Okay. Last question. All right. Tyler was inspired by halftime band performances when he made sticky. Jackson State ended up performing the song in a full circle moment. Yeah. Can you name Jackson State's band? No. Come on, dude. That's not.

fair. What? How's that not fair? I think that's that's too hard. Dog, if you're doing your research, come on. These are on the wikis. I'm going. This is on Wolf Haley. I didn't read the wiki for this. I don't, you know, that's kind of too basic for my sonic boom of the south. Okay. He even tweeted about he. I know. I remember the performance. It was great, but I don't remember the fans of name. Did you remember what college it was? No. Oh, I was about to give you the college. I'm like he knows. It's going to know his Jack this date. All right. Well, I can give you, do you want me to give you, another one. You only have to get for a half point.

For a half point. For a half point. Give me a half point. I'll take the deduction for a bonus chance. The women singing the chorus on sticky are Atlanta natives. There's three of them. Can you give me any of their names? You don't even.

I should. Okay. This is funny because I was, I watched the making of chromocopia where you see them in the booth. Yes. So sick. Like, touche,

Tile for finding them. Their textures and all their adlibs. are so great. I made a mental note to look up who they were and I just never did. All right. So they're called Jasmine Rachel Freeman, Layla Simone Freeman, and Amari K. Jones, to your point, they make the song. Like, they are so incredible. So good. Okay, last question for you. Okay, you got one full point so far. So you are pulling. How am I winning the Tyler season? This isn't, this is insane. I know. This is insane. In the Darling Eye music video, Chase Infinity plays one of Tyler's many romantic interests, and throughout her appearance,

her shoes are digitally blurred out. While Tyler himself has never confirmed, many believe this is paying homage to what classic music video? This is a fair question because even if you've never even seen the video, I think it's a getable question because the image of a digitally blurred out shoe in a music video that Tyler would like and pay homage to you. Drop it like it's hot. Yeah.

Oh. Did you remember this, Justin? Okay. It took me a while because I was like, it's definitely for real. It definitely has to be ice creams. And I was like, drop it like stuff. Perfect. Yeah.

So we'll play both the clips here so you guys can see it. Damn, Charles. That was a good question. That was a good question. You just might have. I don't know if I can come back because you're now at nine. I'm at 6.5. maybe I can okay technically like if you get all your questions wrongs next time and I got them all right

no bro I already I already got my questions for for our next episode you're not getting on my swear okay all right with that out of the way do we want to start getting into nominations all right so we're going to each nominate three yep the end of the episode we'll do our last long standing choice that goes to the finale I okay knowing your tastes I had circled a few songs that I think you're going to you're going to pick. If I have, if the, if the Charles is consistent,

I thinking maybe you're going ratata ta. I think maybe you're going thought I was dead. I'm thinking maybe you go sticky. Am I wrong? Is gay sticky? It's sticky. It's, it's,

oh, you know me so well. That's my first nomination, bro. This is, okay. I texted you like weeks ago the question like we were talking a little talking a little bit about the album via text

and I was like the real question is if Charles does Charles like sticky or not? Because this is a song that I think you could actually I can see you coming in here and say the shit's corny. In my mind I liked it when it dropped and then I was like being a little bit of a hater. I'm like eyes wag. And then I put this on. I was like

oh this I think this might be in the running for one of his best produced songs. Like yes before like for a minute no drums yep we have the whistling yep the chance fade in Tyler starts rapping he's doing like ad libs like he sounds like beefs and butt head about bubble gum you get the bubble gum fx clapping then boom the drums come in fucking incredible and you're like okay okay and as glowrilla comes in sexy red comes in like it's and you're like well where can the the song go Where can the song go?

And Lil Wayne and the brass. It's too, it reminds me of like a timbulin beat in a lot of ways where it's like you're taking a lot of elements where the whistling is giving you this melody. You having the claps. You have the Atlanta women in the back with the chants. And it's all giving you. It's like it is like a cornucopia of sound. Like this is what production wise, this sounds like chromocopia. You can see the colors of being at an HBC.

you, but to have the restraint as a producer to be like, they think when the drums come in after a minute, that's the biggest moment. Guys, just wait. I have one more. Just the euphoria of that experience. Yeah. This song is fucking incredible. Okay.

So I love this song. So gifting gorilla that moment, because she gets the drum. She gets the drum. That is to me, like, it's not maybe quite as a level of like giving like, or Rick Ross devil in a new dress or like you know where it's like a four minute song and then

or even like a push on runaway like you know what I mean like there's his moments like Connie was like probably the best at that of like saving a moment and giving it to a feature artist giving them the perfect bed to just to lie on yeah and so it has that some of that effect to me though because her I mean her verse is like really sick anyways

but I love Glorill's verse on this she's so sick it's like such a perfect like what do you have? identified about this production and then who he brings in to this world is just like chef's kiss this is being a not a this is obviously he's a hands on the keyboard producer but he's also a curator producer a la conier and you know what i mean what is going to make this not what is not the obvious choice what is the what is the not complex choice what is the interesting choice what is the the feature that only i'm going to hear on this you know what i mean and gives it to

Glorilla gives it to sexy What I love A bitch Steps out me pop shit Glass foot Nickers wrong with their motion I'm beginning to click What I love also about this

Is that he Even though there's three featured verses He's still the star of the show In a way that doesn't feel egotistical Like he's trying not to Take away Like sometimes it's like a feature Feels insecure

In terms of like I don't want to get outdone in my own song Yeah this he only gives four bars to each guest artist you know it's not even a full eight which is a you know 16 is a traditional verse 16 bars sometimes if you're going to cut a verse short you go eight this is four for per artist so it's like but that doesn't feel like it's done out of insecurity that feels like it that was the right choice for this song to keep it always moving to keep hitting that refrain of just the simple simplicity of the sticky letting the horn shine and it's just always

moving, you know, just, I don't know, it's just self-propelling like the whole time. It reminds me of like, to me on this song. And it fits with the synchroma character aesthetically. He's like a military like conductor of a band by giving it by only giving the artist four bars. But then also like making sure, right, here's where the drums are going to come in. Here's where the brass is going to come in. Each moment we're rising, rising, rising. He's conducting the whole song.

So to your point. you like Tyler doesn't have to be everywhere on this record but he feels like he's in every single yeah and it's cool if you watch the uh behind the scenes uh making of thing that he released you can see him in the studio with the horn players directing them telling him brum bum bum bum like all those little riffs and stuff like it seems like he was there mouthing them and then they would do it for him which is like so sick and just even yeah i mean there's this is what i love about tyler consistently evolving because what song sounds like sticking is catalogued

at this point. Yeah. Not really a song that sounds like this and he nails it first try. You know what I mean? It's not like he was I mean obviously he was working his way up as a producer consistently but not in this sound territory. And this is what I mean about this record where it's like

I have an idea. I want to pay tribute to a marching band, HBCU vibe. That's an idea that could get, that could go so fucking wrong in the wrong hands. So fucking bad. It could be so corny. You know, it could be, you know what I mean?

Like, even if the intention is pure, like, I can see this going so wrong. But he's at a level production wise that he just fucking nails it. And I also think he's, Tyler is always, I think, pushing against the perception of who he is as an artist. And he's very smart. He's a child of the internet like we all are. And I think you could label Tyler as like, oh, Tyler is for the fucking bros, the odd future swag bros.

he would never collaborate with someone like sexy red. And it's like, no, if you really look at his career, Tyler does all. What he picks a feature, it's either going to be someone that influences him to such a degree that he's like honored like a Farrell or a Wayne. But as he gets farther in his career, he's going to pick someone like sexy red and be like, as a producer, I know what makes her shine. And I know that I could give her just the perfect place to just be sexy red. amazing on the record. It's the young boy from Call Me. It's the 4-2-Dug from Call Me, that same idea.

And what I love is like, at this point, Tyler, even though he's only in his 30s, is really an elder statesman because for so long it was almost like he was begging pop and rap to come to him for people to rap over his shit. And now with 4-2 Doug or NBA young boy

or sexy writer Glorilla, it's like you have a class of musicians. Like, I'd get on a Tyler record. Come on. So sticky, I feel like the listeners might be like you're being basic, Charles, but if you listen to this song... No, it's a fucking great song. To your point, there is, there are a thousand universes where this song goes wrong and we live in the universe where this song went, right? I got some of, this is almost a trivia question that I didn't think it was realistic.

But so going back to the test vinyl pressing versions of these songs, on the album version on his third verse, which we should acknowledge, this song takes. takes a turn towards the end. It turns into another song entirely almost. There's enough through lines instrumentation-wise that it works and you don't really think about it, but it transforms itself halfway through the song. And I don't know if you know, but he is quote, the second half of the song is quoting this young Buck,

get Buck song from 2007. Of course. That horn line. So sick. Also just like him honoring like young buck and then getting like L'Orilla and being able like a California kid being able to be like, nah, but we were listening to Southern rap too is incredible. Okay, but back to that.

So his last verse on that part of the song, if you listen to the album version, he says, that's a bet, skip the sex, ride my face, break my neck. fuck now mood swinging like and then he cuts himself off all the five bitches know the fuck is going down that's a bit skip the sex break my neck fuck now mood swinging like check fuck that aim and body he doesn't finish the bar but if you listen to the test pressing version here's what that sounds like that line sounds like down that's a bit skip the sex right my feet break my neck

fuck now moves in the check fuck that aim and by hitting Okay, so he bleeps out the name, but he says, fuck now, mood swinging like on the jet. So do you, can you take a guess on who he would be drawing this metaphor, mood swinging like blank on the jet and what he would be referencing? I have no idea. It's really funny, actually. Okay, so personal question, Charles,

have you seen Drake's penis leak? I've luck. I remember when it leaked. Luckily, I have not. I skip that. Okay. Unfortunately, I was scrolling Twitter one time, and I saw it. But if you look at the video, he is on it, Drake is on a jet, allegedly.

He's never confirmed this was him, and it's not AI. But he, his nether regions are rather large, and they swing. He's holding his own manhood. and it's kind of swinging around. So he's saying mood swinging like Aubrey on the jet, allegedly. That would be a very Tyler thing to quote. And this would be the second time in history. Justin's looking it up right now.

Are you looking up Drake's penis on Spotify, Wi-Fi? How could you do that to me? This is the second time that Tyler has basically memed Drake. because in my research, I didn't realize Oh, he was the, yeah. The look back one, Earl was like, no, I remember the day, like Tyler took the screenshot and posted it.

I wonder if Tyler and Drake have a good, good relationship at this point. I know, it feels a little rocky with the Camp Flaggnaw thing. I don't know, who knows what these. Hell yeah. Who knows. Okay. Sticky, great choice.

Also, Wayne's verse, even though he gets, I just have to shout this out. Even though he gets four bars, he wraps 22 total words. words, only five of which do not have a rhyme partner. So if you break down his verse, maybe I can square, share the screenshot here, but I highlighted all the rhyme patterns and pretty much 77% of his words rhyme, which is so cool. I love his verse. And it's like, he just, every Tyler feature, or every Wayne feature on. He must love Tyler because Eddie's a go time

Tyler calls. Yeah. He's just like, all right, man, I'm going to give him. That putting this out there before you put your nominations, I think it would be incredible if Lil Wayne just let Tyler produce. Like, let Tyler be as Mani Fresh. An EP. Just give us an EP. Dog, five, six songs. I think it would go, it'd be so incredible. Yeah.

All right. My first nomination might be, do you have any guesses where I might be going? I think we're going to share one. So maybe like, let's not do that one. Okay. What's the most cold bait song on this album? Oh, there's a lot of Colbate songs on Chromacopio. I'm not going to lie.

So to me, hmm, take your mask off is, is Colbate. Tomorrow is Colby. Yeah. Tomorrow, okay,

I'll tell you this. Tomorrow I'm not going to nominate, but it has maybe my favorite Tyler lyric of all time, which is an opening line where he says, my mother's hands don't look the same. I do, I don't like tomorrow, but that is a great line.

That line is so perfect. It's poetry. It's so beautiful. This episode is brought to you by Sierra Nevada Hazy Little Thing. If you saw the band when they played at the bar or stopped mid-festival to look at the stars, then you're ready to embrace the haze with hazy little thing. Citricy, smooth and easy to drink, it pairs with nights that don't need a script. Brewed with the purest ingredients for finest quality, there's a reason it's America's best-selling hazy IPA.

embrace the haze with Sierra Nevada Hazy Little Thing Enjoy responsibly All right So I'm gonna go Your, it's definitely Take Your Mask Off Honorable Mention

Take Your Mask off So where are you going? It was on the border for me For a long time Noid But my number one pick on this album is Like him Pitch me on it

Okay Did you look up the Spotify streams For this album at all For each song? Well I kind of to just bury the lead there, but would you believe me if I said like him is the most streamed song on this album? Really like a long shot.

800 million streams versus the next closest is sticky at 536 million streams. This is a song go like crazy on like TikTok or something? I don't know. I'm not really on TikTok like that. But this is like one of his biggest songs in his career, which is kind of crazy to think about, right? I totally disregarded this song because every single time I hear I'm like, not for me.

Okay, I had a feeling you'd go there. Wait, what? You're gonna, okay, I'm gonna, but I'm gonna do my best to sell you on it because as part of this exercise, I think it is actually important to try to understand why this song is resonating because I think if we're going by streams alone,

let me just pull it up real quick, at least on Spotify. This, I think, is his third biggest song. Go see you again. Earthquake by streams. And like him, or no, New Magic One has 900 million, but it's been out for five more years than the song. So I think it's safe to say like him might go down at this moment as his third biggest song. Okay.

She's fucking crazy. Isn't that crazy? I am realizing that like my Tyler fandom is so moved from the average Tyler fan. Yeah. Okay. I feel like I need to do an episode on this because it's like, that is so fascinating to me. But I'm going to walk you through the song somewhat briefly, but I do want to walk through

kind of the whole song from Greco. To try to like, because I think this is like a really important song for Tyler. I think it is it is a guard almost might surpass garden shed as his most important emotionally emotional song. So it begins with so the premise of the song essentially is about

his father and the idea is like we hear at the beginning of the track, his mom saying how much he looks like his father. And this kind of then fuels the concept of the song, which is like, do I look like him? And as we know, studying Tyler to this point, this idea of the absent father has been a running motif and theme in his entire discography. We could kind of track his maturation as a person through his, the way he communicates about his father through his discography. But so emotionally and dynamically, this song is like a masterpiece. peace. It begins with his mom saying how much Tyler looks like his father.

Every time I look at you, I swear to God, you got that nigga feet. You got that nigga body. You got that nigga long arms, fingers and shit, flat feet, big. Also, like, one, think about that dynamic. Think about as a kid hearing that you look like a guy that you've never met. Yeah. And thinking your entire, most of your life that he abandoned you, which is really important to remember. remember when we get to the end of this song. And what I love about this entire song, and especially this moment, is that this is scored with a really simple childlike piano.

So let me just play the opening moment what we hear. It almost to me feels like a kid, a little kid at the piano plunking around. We're also getting minor diminished chords here. So it has this kind of like childlike quality, but it's also kind of dark. And so when you're hearing his mom say that over these piano chords, it's like, it's a, it's a really brilliant scoring moment in terms of like evoking a certain emotion about hearing those things as a kid. And in a way that I think implies, yeah, this complication of this dynamic for him as someone that grew up without his father.

So that kind of sets the stage. And then from here, the whole song evolves like beautifully in terms not only emotionally or not. not only musically but emotionally. So we get Tyler enters the song and it's just him at the piano playing chords and it's almost like we're like voyeurs spying on him singing at his house just playing chords. I think it's probably the most vulnerable moment in his entire catalog maybe aside from a garden shed. But we've never really heard just Tyler and his singing voice bear just at the piano. At the opening of the song, he's just singing. She said that I make expressions like him, my legs to my shoulders, my chin like him, my waist like him,

sending up this, you know, essentially outlining the theme of the song here at the start. So again, we go from this childlike, vulnerable intro with his mom to him, alone at the piano singing in a very vulnerable voice. And then he sings the hook. And this is the important part about this song. You think it's a song about Tyler's father. It's actually a song about Tyler's mom. He's singing directly to his mom throughout this entire song.

Mama, I'm chasing a ghost. I don't know who he is. Mama, I'm chasing a ghost. To me, that mama is doing so much emotional work. If you pair it to what I'm talking about in the intro and the childlike chords, it evokes like a vulnerability calling out to your mother. You know what I mean? And so from this point on in the song, Tyler is speaking to his mom directly.

And just to highlight the composition of this song, it passes what I call the piano test. A lot of times when I'm trying to like wrap my head around a great song, I'm like, the quickest way for me to see how sound the writing is is to just play the melody and the chords, bare bones. And so when you play just the melody and the chords bare bones, it's very beautiful. It works just on piano alone. Yeah.

It's beautiful. So even if we're hearing Tyler singing, he doesn't have the greatest voice. We've talked about that. But there's a vulnerability, there's an honestist, There's a sincerity in his voice paired with great chords, great melody. It's just fundamentally sound as a song. And then from here, it breaks into, so to this point about a minute and a half in, we've just heard Tyler at a piano.

And then one of my favorite moments of the song is when he switches from piano into the full arrangement and how he gets there is just so smooth. And then introduces his guitar. And if you listen in the background, you're going to hear what, to my ears sounds like a theremin. Do you know what the theremin is? Like the voice, the instrument you play with your hand. Oh, yeah, yeah. So listen for that in the background. So to my brain, Theramen is traditionally used to, I mean, it dates back to like the 30s or something,

but it's always been associated with extraterrestrial. This was like the go-to instrument for aliens or ghosts. And in this song, he's singing about a ghost. I'm chasing a ghost, which is my father. So, you know, I love this kind of shit where the instrumentation is kind of reflecting what he's singing about. Do you want to jump in or am I cooking? Is this compelling? No, you're cooking.

It's because like, you're pointing out what I love about the song first. Okay. Where it's like, I love the melody. I love how he's playing. it almost reminds me of a Stevie Wonder song in a lot of ways. Yeah. The, the,

why would it pick it is just because I was like, oh, Tyler's voice doesn't sell it for me. That's the, that is the only knock I have against the song. Lyrically and production and his plague is beautiful. Okay, so indulge me as I continue.

No, no, no, no, no, you're cooking. Okay, okay. So second verse, full instrumentation.

So again, we're gradual build from solo, very bare bone solo piano, more fleshed out, now full of, arrangement. Second verse, he's singing directly to his mom. You gave me love and affection, attention, protection. How could I ever miss something that I never had? I would never judge you because everything worked out without him. When you hear it just like that spelled out,

and I prefaced it with he's talking to his mom, it seems pretty clear. But forever in my head, and I think I could speak for probably a lot of listeners, I always thought he was talking to his dad. I would never judge you. And maybe he partially is, but it's very clear he's. It's very clear he's talking to his mom here. And I'm not going to, so just keep down in mind as we continue. He's speaking to his mom almost as if like he's forgiving her. And it's kind of like, well, why are you praising your mom in a song about your absent father? Well, it makes sense on the surface, like you did the best with your circumstances. But he is, he is prefacing you and foreshadowing the bomb that drops at the end of this song. So again, just to accent the build of this song, the second

He does the great Tyler thing where if you don't like his voice, well, now he's got Lola Young singing with him to kind of smooth things out. So let's see what it is. He's got the guitar now, Thereman, thing. You know, he's dynamically building it. He's got backup vocals now. And so he's continuing this build, build, build. And then I should also point out the songs in 6-8.

It kind of has this like ballad feel. It almost sounds like a song that belongs in a musical or something. Yep. Okay, and then we get to like the big outro. So again, this whole song is a build. And then he drops a new synth riff and he sings these kind of what feel like almost like freestyle. Does it feel like a traditional verse? He's kind of like singing over this big climax.

Here he singing. I decided anything that lives inside of you, I would never lie to you. Again, speaking to his mom, you ain't ever got a lie to me. Very important. You ain't got a lie to me. I'm everything that I've strived to be. So do I look like him? Do I look like him?

And then Tyler's final line is, I don't look like him. Which I think there's a number of ways you could take that. But in the context of the song, it seems like he's saying, I've been fine without my father. I don't need to look like him because I have my own individual and I turned out fine. Thanks to my mother, right? And we get a huge big climax at the end. Musically, we think we have hit the emotional and musical peak of this song. but the real peak is the post outro kind of the epilogue of this song where this

where everything drops out and his mom returns to the song and we hear this it was my fault not yours not he is it was my fault i'm sorry you know it was my not him because he always wanted to be there for you getting chills so she says here it was my fault i'm sorry it's my fault uh he's my fault uh he always wanted to be a father to you. I fucked up. I take ownership of that and I'm sorry for my choices. He's a good guy. Don't hold it against him because it was my fault. And then she ends the song saying, just you know, forgive me. And what Tyler has done throughout this entire song is forgive his mother. And so when we hear, that's what those verses I think are about. It's him saying,

I would never judge you for this thing that I know you now did, which was hide my father from me. Yeah. Just emotionally, I'm getting choked up just even thinking about that dynamic, especially doing this exercise and seeing his emotions about his father expressed in his music to this point. This to me, this outro is like, it's like a great movie, which at the end of the story, multiple character arcs are resolved in one event. And so to me, this outro resolves Tyler forgives him. mother. That's resolving his mother. Tyler, I think, absolves his dad as the villain. Yeah. And Tyler finds himself, I think, finds closure in forgiving his mother and presumably his father, because now he knows that it actually was, his father did want to be in his life. So you get

three resolutions emotionally with just this one outro. And the way that he sets that up, the way that he's speaking to his mom about a song about his dad throughout the entire song is I think just such a masterclass in like, again, to make a film comparison, this is what the greatest like screenwriters do, right? Yeah. Where you're taking an issue that is really complex dynamically. There's a way that this can be told where he's singing directly to his father or whatever. Like there's a number of ways you can tell this story.

But he found the like the most interesting way where he, again, absolves and resolves all three of those characters, which are his parents, in this one, one song and one outro. And I think the way he even scores that outro, how everything, it comes to a huge climax, you think you're done with the song, and then boom, drops the bomb. And like, I don't know, it's just like really powerful moment, maybe the most powerful moment emotionally in his entire catalog. So that's why I picked like him. I have impressed as always. I do, I 100% agree with you in terms of this probably being among the most important

songs he's ever released. And it's also when you look at it in terms of the album, to me he's touching on, because it's such a mind fuck to think about where his mom is saying that he looks like his father. And throughout the album, he is coming to terms with like his hair and what he's done with his hair or taking off the mask. And in each song, you can see him trying to cobble together just a through line of like, to forgive my mom and to forgive my dad is the last thing I need to do to kind of like finally forgive myself and be this fully fleshed version.

And I was like, oh, to think that the kid who made bastard and and Goblin would ever get to this point where he finally reaches forgiveness is just, that's an arc. that's also incredible because I'm like, he's still in his 30s. Like, that's an arc that you would expect from like, what, how old was Jayze when he dropped 4-4-4? Yeah, it was in his 50s, I think. You know what I mean? And Tyler's doing this, what, when I think he dropped this when he was 33, maybe 34.

Yeah, something like that. So, yeah, just incredible. Yeah. I'd also say, just to add on, and I'm kind of shocked that you haven't made this comparison, Cole, to the Mr. Morrell point of this, the song that this reminds me the most of any artist catalog in this genre is mother-eye sober. Yeah. And it's just, it taps into a lot of that, like, the way this trauma gets passed down

from generations. And I think it's a brilliant song. That's kind of all I wanted to add to discussion that. Yeah. I mean, even the comparison of, like, hearing Whitney on the end of that song, hearing his children, like, we're bringing, like, and we hear his mom, like, we're brought, you know, right into the world. And it's like on an album in which his mom is propped up as this guiding light figure,

it has that almost like divine quality to it. But then you get a song like this and he just really humanizes her. You know what I mean? And it's like not only did she raised Tyler, did her best and all these things. Yeah, she also has this stain or, you know, whatever it is that he ends up forgiving, which is just really beautiful. And again, yeah, I mean, to your point, like, yeah, this is the guy that made bastard title track starts with him talking about his dad to a counselor.

Yeah. And like being really angry about it. And then to get, it almost like encapsulates in his entire arc in these two, you know, bastard title track to hear is crazy. And it's, it's,

it's interesting because for an artist, rightfully so who was, his early lyrics were so machozyistic. And his relationship with women and how he detailed them was just so abrasive. And for him on this record, because earlier in the record, he's talking about the experience of of being promiscuous, accidentally getting someone pregnant, rapping from her perspective and realizing like, okay, it's not just that I might be afraid to have a kid. Right.

What is my partner feeling? And using that in the beginning of the record to foreshadow the fact that like, okay, I can now see the version of what my mom and dad were going through. when they were about to have me and if he ended up having the kid being like, oh, this cycle continued where oh, something happened that is just like, am I going to stay?

Am I going to go? Yeah. Even if he chose to stay in a hypothetical scenario if they ended up having the kid, at least he would know that there was a thought process where he did not want to stay and he can maybe empathize more with people that don't stay. Not saying that's like justifiable or correct,

but it's like he's had the, he was put in those shoes and he saw one way that his life could, like, you know what I mean? So, yeah. All right. That's enough. Oh, wait. Really, really quick.

Why do you think he did not include mother on the original, on the original project? Because he has said that that is kind of like, that's like a load bearing song and it wasn't it to like listen to that song where I was like, yeah, but does it work as a song? It's a little bit. It's kind of messy.

It's a messy. It's a messy. It's a messy song. and beautiful in its own way, but it's kind of messy. And I do, now that you've broken it down, I'm like, like him does it. It does all the work, I think. Better and less obvious. Yeah.

Okay. This is, let's bring some levity into this conversation because this is the only decision Tyler the creator would do on his most emotional and vulnerable song. He drops a baby Keem sample. Right before the big, you know what I'm talking about? Which one? Okay, let me play it for you. Right before the big,

climax. Oh, that's sick. I didn't even realize. Baby Kim. Why is that there? I don't know. What is it with Baby Kim always being there when niggas want to get super therapy?

They're like, you know who would be great on this song? Baby Kim. It doesn't take me out of the moment, but I'm like, who other than Tyler would drop a baby Keem ad lib right before the most emotional part of the song? Okay. It's the time for a quick break. and then come back with more. And then let's get back to it.

All right, let's do it. All right, Charles. You pick Sticky. I pick like him. Where are we going for round two? We should bring some levity as you were saying to this. I'm going to go with a song that I've listened to so much doing this exercise. And dog, I'm just going to play it.

I think this is one of his best songs, best hooks ever. So good. So good. All right. Where do I even start? Okay, just for the record, this is on my list too, so we overlapped here. Okay, let's just talk you out because this is why we're buds and friends because what I realized, we both love this. I was like, Tizo touchdown is taking a lot of flat.

I love Tzo touchdown. I love. You and Justin not so much. I've gotten some shit about my Tizo touchdown love from you guys. At one point, I was like, Tizo touchdown is interesting. And then the industry just, they were, they were serving up a lot of Tizzo, almost too much. He was on Drake records. He was on Tyler records.

And also, I think he put a lot of his money in the pop punk basket. And I was like, that was the wrong move. Am I, am I being a hater just being like, there was a moment where Tizo was a little overexposed. Yeah. It's, it's funny because I think that including Tizo a couple years earlier is kind of a signifier of the time. But this actually, 2024 feels a little bit past peak Tizo.

time. Yeah. Um, so Tyler just likes working with Tizo. So second album in a row because he was on call me. See, but call me it makes it make it. Yeah, it makes sense from like an industry perspective because they were pushing Tizo really hard. 2024 was a little more quiet out here for Tizo. But Tizo, Tizo and Tyler sound great about this. This duet is amazing. It is the most effortless. In my opinion, I've ever heard Tyler singing. He is so confident on this record. It is like, if Charlie will Wilson was just the big homie and the legend who was like really giving him. I do think like Tyler was looking at like singers like that and really just looking at their confidence and how they attacked the mic.

And when I listen to Darling Eye, once again, it's not perfect singing, but he knows exactly what the song needs. It's never too much. It takes you on a journey. I will have to say between there's something with the Ah Future Gang where dog, you got a little money, you get your 30s, and you just make songs like, oh, monogamy. Fuck it. And I'm just like, you know, if I had as much money as you and as much access to just

like bottles and fucking around, like yes. But sometimes it's like very funny that I never thought Tyler would, because the era of R&B that Tyler is interested in was the like dog. These R&B singers were dirt bags. they just they the reason they was singing in the rain today shoddies was because they was fucking up constantly and it's so funny

that this is Tyler's version of that type of record yeah but with his own spin on it because he's just talking about like damn monogamy I don't know like it's just like but this is what I'm saying about this record though it's like in the wrong hands

a song that is essentially going against monogamy could go very wrong like more and not, it probably goes wrong. Especially Tyler. And this is, but what he does, it's like lighthearted, it's fun. You see the music video is perfect for this where he has all these different iconic women that he's kind of bouncing around towards.

And it's just like, it feels good. And yeah, to your point about what I didn't realize about this song is like, it's like a 2000 era R&B song where it has the rapper and the singer. Yes. But he's doing both parts. If you listen to the first verse of this song, we'll play it here. He's singing like the woman. part when he's saying, I got a problem, I don't know if I can shake, they want to time me down.

When he's singing in a super high falsetto voice, like that's the woman, quote unquote, woman's part. Oh, I got a problem. I don't know if I can shake. Oh, they want a tiny thousand. And then his second verse is the Jar Rule part, where the first verse was Ashanti, you know what mean? I try my beaming in the summer when I'm ready to drift. La Ferrari handle better in its prettiest shit.

Feel safe in the world. Big boy when I drive. Love him all for different reasons At the same damn time See monogamy That shit is not He's like He's doing both parts

And it's like so cool I'm so glad you You pointed this out Because I had the same exact thought Where even if you look at How he is rapping On this It is your cliche

2000's Like rap verse Yeah Where the guy is on the R&B song So he kind of wants to be smooth Yeah But like He's all

It's very joky as well Almost like he's spitting game, but to your point, I'm like, Tyler, you're also on the hook. It lands in this weird way, but it works. Yeah, it works. He's, yeah, he's dynamic enough. He goes super low for the, for the rap verse, and he's singing midtone for the hook, and he's singing falsetto for the quote-unquote woman part. And his falsetto sounds good on this. Yeah, like, whatever key this is, I didn't look it up, but like, this is a great key for him. It suits his voice really well. It suits it perfectly. Like, darling, I kept listening. I was like, talk, this is a

fucking groove. And even in a certain interviews, you could tell he's feeling himself because he's like, yo, at this point, I feel like I'm better at the R&B hooks and records than I am at the rapping. And I was like, if I think about it, his biggest songs at this point are the ones where he is like singing. And I was like, oh, that's such an interesting place for him to end up as an artist. So it's again, one of the many surprises in the career.

Who would have thought the kid that made bastard would be the. would be the singing on billions of streams of songs. It's crazy. Okay, did you look up the samples or the interpolations for the song at all? Very, very briefly. Justin, maybe you can chime in here too. Let me see if, so the percussion, the drums and percussion on this song are, I don't think they're direct samples, but they're definitely like,

I am recreating exactly this. Listen to the drums on the original song and then we'll try to see if you can play some. the bass drum and kick here I'll play the so Q-tip we talked about this last episode Q-tip Viverant Thing which we know a song Tyler loves so I don't think I don't know if he samples the drums directly or recreates them but that's if now we can go back to this but now that you're you pointed out like this would be a record that Q-Tip

would wrap on down that I'm like the damn but that also contributes to like the you know early 2000s vibe in the song so we okay now do you hear the mouth clicks Yeah So that comes from, of course Which again is not a direct sample But he's definitely It's the same rhythm

A little buried in the mix But they're there So he's essentially combining Viverent thing with drop it like it's hot Yeah Doing the R&B Duet It's like

And then it's like it feels very modest It almost reminds me two of like Ferrell and Snoop songs like beautiful. Uh-oh. Yeah. Like he's doing the Farrell part and. It's so good.

I mean, yeah. But other other notes I think I had one. Okay. Let me quickly. Passes the piano test. It's so good. Like crazy how these songs so like works so well. Oh, this is so beautiful.

This song is so fucking buttery. It's. But as a songwriter, this is like the quick test where it's like is the songwriting sound? Is the melody? and chords together are they, it's perfect, so good. There's Tyler as a singer-songwriter in a true, truest sense of the word. And then, yeah, the only other thing I had, I guess, was like,

the bridge is incredible on this. Okay, well, since you brought it up, straightforward pop song, essentially the same chord progression the entire time. Also, for my any music theory nerds out there, we talked about Tyler taking the chords from God bless the child, and rapping over them on boredom, on Flower Boy. That was him imitating, essentially just like, quote, unquote, ripping off a preexisting

core progression and making his own song over it. By the time we get to Chromacopia, he's taking the lessons of that song specifically, what is called a 251 chord progression. It's the centerpiece of jazz music. And now he's not just kind of copy pasting. he's incorporating that classic turnaround, both in like him is based on a 251 chord progression, and it's the turnaround in this song too.

So in my compositional brain, I'm like, oh, he's grown as a songwriter and a chord composer where he's not just mimicking, he's now incorporating taking those lessons and then putting his own original twist on it. You know what I mean? Which just, again, shows the arc of his compositional kind of growth. But since you brought up,

up the bridge, one chord progression the entire time, and tell the bridge where he does a full-step modulation where it's just like, you don't have to do this, but he does. So I'll point it out. We've now modulated a full step above the original key, and then he's going to now perform this part of the chorus in this new key, higher key. So here's, and then, and then he modulates back to the original key here for the end of the song so it's just like even in a breakdown as even when he goes but to hit

to do it and then the key fall it is such a good like boom well one okay one the core the key falls down to its original goes down and then all that whole melody keep falling down repeated each one sequence lower each time so you're getting the falling that's just what I'm saying shit that like Farrell would do back in the day That's what I'm just saying like technically

If you, that's why I'm so high on this album Is this like technically It's like shit like this where my brain's like Well, this is one of his best works Just on a technical level You know what I mean? He's doing this kind of stuff He was getting to these moments

Throughout his career But this is just where everything is just melding And it sounds effortless It's not calling attention to itself It's all within you know The structure of the song But then it's like if you're listening for it, he's going to give you that modulation.

You know what I mean? So I'm glad we overlapped. And it's just like, this song is just good. It passes the gut check of just like, this is, it feels good to listen to. It's on brand, consistent thematically. Like, what's not to love? All right. So what's your, what's your third and last nomination?

Tomorrow, honor and redemption. Love that song. Take your mask off was close. Okay. But ultimately I went with my heart, which is what I've been doing this entire series, which for the third pick of my nominations is just go with my heart and my heart is telling me

Balloon Feathing dog All right dog all right I can't believe we're sharing another song I thought Balloon is so incredible This is another song I thought you were definitely gonna come in here

just shit on. Wait, really? I love balloon. This was like, before I really fell in with darling eye, I was just like, I gotta pick balloon.

Really? It's, the reason I find it beautiful is like, before this, you could not really tell me, like, I know Tyler had children,

but I was like, I don't know who they were. And like, Dochi to me is the like, it's beautiful to see in the same way that like, Wayne to Tyler, you can see that connection.

Yeah. Tyler having this moment with Dochi. Dochi has an incredible verse. I think she like outwraps Tyler. It is just the beat is incredible. The Luke sample is incredible. It's just pure fucking unadulterated hip hop. It's once again like the production is is so fucking good. That's so good. This is my favorite song on the record. Really? Yeah. This song was controversial when it came out. Why? People thought his song was corny. I love this. Okay. I do not care. I thought both of you might just show. Yeah, you start, play a little bit of it.

I love this beat so much. Oh, well, that's such interesting about the song. It's like, there's not actually a beat. There's no drums, really. Well, there is, but. Yeah, we ain't talking to your dumb ass. You could be a millionaire, still be a bummed ass, boy. I've been in a dream.

Did you look up the sample for this? Yes. So it's kind of a spiritual cousin to thank you off Igor because he's, what is the Japanese genre? Uh, CD pop. Is it? I don't know if this qualified. for it, but it's a Japanese artist.

It's a city pop. Okay. So sick. But again, in classic Tyler fashion, he takes cues that, you know, the song is fundamentally shaped around that sample, but he brings so much original elements to it that it just becomes, like it doesn't stick out as like, that sounds like a sample. It actually sounds like of Tyler's world. Yeah, the little Sid, this is the weird little gremlin scent.

Okay, yeah, another thing about the song, which I thought was cool, is so those vocal samples, I don't know if you guys recognize them, but they come both of the vocal samples when he says, I want to rock and the hay come from two live crew. So Luke Skywalker. Let me play the original here. And the I Wanna Rock is in there too. And then there's another sample. That song's so sick. Uh, by also Luke Skywalker, Uncle Luke from Two Live Crew from, It's Your Birthday, 1994. That, ah, but hey, that's also in, you hear it.

And what I love about this, I don't know what came first or second, but you have two live crew samples, iconic historic group from Florida and then he brings Docheon also from Florida who throughout her verse is repping Florida the whole time. So I'm like, that's pretty cool. I don't know. It is, I can't believe you thought I would hate this song. I feel like this song well, I could see why people thought maybe the song was corny because obviously the don't stop sample,

the two live crew sample French Montana, like used it like what probably like a decade before. This song has been sampled the worst time. So it's like no one really owns it at this point. But to me, this song is just like a freight train. It has so much energy. And to me, like I said, this, this album is a perfect synthesis of everything that Tyler had been working towards, which is being able to your point to be Ashanti and Jarl

on the same song, to have loved. for Southern rap and old samples and California and bringing up not only his peers, but people that are coming up as well and giving them a moment where I'm like, it almost reminds me of a Nicki Minaj on Monster. Obviously, it did not have that impact, but like laying a perfect bed for a rapper and showing what makes them so incredible. And Doche has that theatricality that Tyler has always had. I just think it's a perfect record.

What are you going to say, Justin? I was just going to say that Cole's out here like, I don't know if you guys recognize the sample as if we didn't live through Pop That. Pop that. Yeah. Cole, where do you stand on French Montana's Pop That? What do you guys think? You don't like that song?

It's from the era that I just, I'm not a big fan of that era. I'm sorry. Love that era. Love that era. Okay. Well, to your point about Dochi, like, he definitely identified something. He was early on Dochi.

So this song came out. So my interview with Dochi dropped in October the same month as this. But the interview was before this came out. And Balloon was kind of the start of Doche's just what made Dochey pop off so hard was one, she came out with a great album, but it was a slow burn. It was the Tyler moment. It was the Tiny Desk moment. It was the Stephen Colbert moment.

she just kept having like moment after moment after moment and this was among them but tyler to identify dochi to get her on this song to where it was going to release during this you know during when it did obviously he identified something in her early it wasn't like she had her moment and then he's like let me tap into that yeah he saw what i think a lot of us saw in dochi and i didn't think that the doche explosion was going to happen as quickly as it did nor did i think it was going to i didn't think she's going to win a grammy but all that that to say, like, to your point about him identifying features, identifying what makes a sexy red special, just knowing how to bring the best out of my artist to give him again, give him this

red carpet was perfect. And like, to Doji's credit, you said like this is like classic hip hop and I agree in the sense that like one, well, dochi just understood the assignment because she does the classic thing where it's like, I'm not going to give you a feature that is just maybe a leftover or something I write quickly. Like, no, I'm actually going to listen to what you're saying in the song. And then bounce off it. And bounce off of it. So if you go through her verse, she's like kind of calling back to a lot of the things that

that's why I love it. And then, I mean, talk about a show stealer. And you said Cardi's verse on Earthquake was one of the best rap verses of the 21st century. I think air this bitch out like a queef. It's one of the best, was the best iconic moments of the 21st century. It's so good. But she's playing off of, he says, I air this bitch out like balloon. And to just have that classic back and forth where she's riffing on that, you know what I mean?

And like elevating the line. And then Tyler, like allowing her to do that again, again, like. And even a small choice as the beat, the propulsion is going and going, it's moving, it's moving and moving. Her delivery is getting so crunchy in her voice. She's like, and she's contorting it. It's becoming more monstrous. Like that's just something especially early. in an artist's career,

that's what separates you from every other rapper dropping music. To your point, you know the assignment, you know who Tyler is, and just she attacks, the way Dochi attacks this beat is just.

She's hungry too. You know what I mean? You could tell she was like, I respect Tyler. This is a blessing. Like, I'm going to make the most of this. It reminds me of like,

obviously, don't she and Tyler are closer than age than Tyler was to Wayne or Connie, but it reminds us. me of like a smuckers where it's just like you could tell when tyler gets in a room with people inspired him yeah that it just like i want to do something special and i feel like you could i love when an artist like a doche could be like all right there's a tyler song i have to show people yeah why i'm here yeah so yeah i'm darling one last thing just uh because it was kind of a mind

breaker for me because i was like i noticed you don't really notice so you pay attention there's like no drums on the song right and i was like are there drums i feel like i hear some percussion stuff but you know there's never like a solid like beat that comes in so i took i stemmed out all the tracks so you can like essentially put it through a processor and it'll isolate drums isolate that all that so let me i want to isolate the drums for you because they're pretty cool although i'm going to play the original first because they're kind of buried so here's what the original mix is so you can hear the clapping yeah can hear some elephant but when you isolate it, there are actual drums and it's really, really cool.

I wish they were louder, actually. Wow. So sick. It's almost got the sticky vibe to it a little bit. Yeah. I was just like, damn. I mean, it's super Neptunes also, but I just thought that was cool. I had to.

I can't believe we agreed on two songs. I know. That's kind of crazy. Do we need to shout out anyone else? I mean, like, Noid, I love Noid. Noid was in contention. I just felt, A, going to be honest. I love when rappers, you know, rap about whatever is on the top of their mind.

I think Tyler is at the perfect place in his career to rap about this. It is hard to relate about, like, having to run away from the paparata. Just feeling like you're always being followed. It is a true emotion. I'm glad he got it out. It's just not the most universal. It's a very, like, Yis. a song to me where it's like, there are songs on Jesus that I love, but I'm just like,

there's a rich knee grocery. Yeah. Like, come on. Yeah, okay. So, noid, I think, I mean, like, there's a lot of songs like, Hey, Jane or Judge Judy where I really respect the writing. It's just not a song that I want to listen to all the time. You know, like, I, the storytelling on like, Judge Judy is like really emotional and like

sincere and really great writing. But yeah, I don't. It doesn't get there, but I do agree. I, I actually like I killed you. like it wasn't one that was ever in contention but I did like I killed you I thought for sure you're going thought I was dead oh I on the ride here I was almost gonna make a late okay but I was like I can't pick thought I was dead especially because I'm like schoolboy I was like you're picking this because you like this girl for so much like I just love him and Tyler's friendship and I just like once again school boy he was another rapper that I think if he let Tyler handle all the production. on an album, I just think it would sound incredible. Yeah. New school like you apparently is done and all that.

I didn't realize him in school like you are like tight. Yeah, it seems like it. Hell yeah. Makes sense. All right. So we both pick balloon. We both pick darling eye. I pick sticky.

You picked like him. All right. Cool. I don't know. I mean, you're your technique can go first and we have overlap. So it is your right to go first though. I think you know where I'm going. For our, so this is our last song standing.

This is the song we're going to take into the World Rumble just in a couple episodes. So you go on balloon, you go on Sticky or you go in, what was your third? Darling Eye. Oh, darling eye. Ooh, that's kind of tough. I think it's between Sticky and Darling Eye. Okay. I agree.

I got to go, Darling Eye. I got to go with my heart. I think Sticky is a better produced record, but the problem with Sticky. is that if this was like last production standing, I would pick Sticky, but his last song standing. I think Darling Eye is a more successful song than Sticky is. No, actually no. Or I mean, if you're got your popularity.

No, no, no. I'm just talking about like song. Right. Like what I, the production of Sticky leaves me more in awe, but just how cohesive darling I is just it took Tyler his entire career. to be able to get to a song that sounds that seamless. Yeah. You just can't see the stitching in that.

I think it's better written than See You Again. I think it's better written than Earthquake. Even if you prefer Earthquake, I just think, yeah, Darling Eye as, it almost feels like the perfect Tyler the Creator Pop song. Even if it's not his biggest, I'm just say like just compositionally. As a product, it's just so seamless and so fucking slick. So, and I think a lot of these songs are good, but I was like, it was like, it was was between Sticky and Earthquake, I would still pick Earthquake.

You know what I mean? So that's why I was like, oh, sticky would lose. Okay. All right. Well, I'm not going to try to draw it out. I'm going to like him. I already. We got it.

I think, I mean, it's cold bait, but I hopefully I made a great case for it because I made a perfect case for it. It's a garden shed level. I actually might even surpass Garden Shed for me. So I'm going to go easy, like him. So let's quickly recap the list. And then Justin, we're going to see if you wanted to use your VAR video replay to exchange earthquake

for something else off this record but I, my list now is bastard she answer cherry bomb title track Garden Shed, New Magic Wand, Lumberjack and Like Him. Super diverse list got emotional, got bangers and yours. A little more one dimensional but go ahead All right. French Yonkers, Bimmer, Buffalo, who dat boy, gone gone, thank you. Lemonhead,

Darling Eye A. Darling Eye is a great actually. You really rounded out your list with the Darling Eye. I think what you could see in my list, whether it's Bimmer or Darling Eye or Gone Gone Thank You, I either like, there's two Tyler's that I love, either give me the raps and just show me that you, like, because he's a phenomenal rapper or give me the lush Neptune singing production. Yeah.

Like those are the two. I either like crunchy distorted Tyler or I like smooth 2000s R&B, Tyler. Okay. Justin, are we any songs in contention? Anyone that we didn't nominate that you're surprised about or is there anything sticking out in terms of a exchange for earthquake? Ooh. I don't, I just don't think I can exchange anything for earthquake, but maybe I'm starting to come off of that right now. Let me ask you, are there songs that the audience is clamoring for that we have missed? I know that...

On this episode, on this album? on in in sure let's on this album we on this album we don't know yet i saw some pushback for um sweet i thought you wanted to dance that you know but some people little bum we didn't choose that i kind of had a feeling that we're going to get some pushback about that because that that's a big song on this record i'm trying to predict i mean people like paranoid but if you're just going by streams it's like even as the lead single it's kind of lower in the streams. I think Sticky not getting through to the finale might run people the wrong way. And I think there's going to be a very, maybe a minority, but strong contingent for like a song like,

Hey Jane or Judge Judy. Yeah, I like those songs, but they just, I've heard, I don't know. I think that they are well-written, well-executed songs that don't quite capture what makes Tyler incredibly special as an artist. I agree. I agree. They're very good songs, but the goal here is the last song standing, not to list just a bunch of songs that we like. Which, by the way, we take seven, eight episodes

to list a bunch of songs in the life. I don't think I can, I don't think I can change anything right now. I don't think there's anything on this album that sticks out. I think Balloon is, you know. It's great, but yeah, it's not quite a lot. It's not going to win. Yeah. All right.

I'm feeling good. Next episode. Don't tap the glass. Lucy's features. Double episode. Well, we'll keep it. We're going to keep it a reasonable time, but we are covering. Don't tap the glass.

And then we're going to cover anything. So Lucy's, the umbrella of Lucy's is like singles, B sides, and then even features are in contention. Anything that didn't make a proper album or maybe made the deluxe or just like. Yeah. So estate sale stuff, people were asking about that will be addressed on the Lucy's part of the episode. and then finale after that. I'm, this is going to be a hard finale.

It's going to be fun. It might be one of our more difficult finals. I think so. I actually think so. It might be the hardest to narrow down one song from Tyler. So, okay. All right, Charles, next week. Had a blast.

All right. We're back. Cultural exchange. Cultural exchange, man. Where are we at? Where are we at on this? So I made a, so we did a off-camera pivot. Yes.

So, You assigned me Akira, which is something I really want to watch. But then I saw in the time between tapings that Akira is coming back to IMAX and 4K for a one night showing in September. And I was like, texted to you. I said, Charles, I know Akira is my, you know, my assignment, but I think I need to see it for the first time in IMAX. And you agreed, right? I definitely agreed. Okay.

So then you assigned me. Ghost in the show. Okay. So I didn't get so interesting. I watched it, but I didn't get like the full. prep from you, like, about it. So maybe say what you would say about it if you're giving it to me and then I'll give you like, you know, my reaction. So I wait. I think a lot of, uh, listeners were probably like, well, why didn't you give Cole any of the big ones early? Like Akira, Ghost in the Shell is in this,

perfect blue is in this. These are just like the foundational. These are the godfathers, the citizen canes of anime. And my pitch for Ghost in the Shell is that it is one of the most, influential movies of all time. It kind of kicks down the door from, in terms of how a U.S. audience interacts with anime, where obviously the big kind of like headline is heavily influenced the Wachowski's with The Matrix. And this was a release in 1995, just to people know. And I think not just from an aesthetic standpoint, but just how detailed the animation is,

the style is, it is. It takes a couple of viewings because similar to the manga that it's based on, which actually has a new adaptation right now on Amazon, this is created by a mangaka who is really into cybernetics and the future. You're not explaining anything. We're throwing you into the world. It's go, go, go. That is very much the matrix aspect of it. And you almost have to just trust that by the end, similar to Akira, you will at least understand enough. So it's maybe on the tougher side, but I mostly recommended it because I was like, I want to show you a classic.

Right. And I want to show you at its peak how artistic on a drawn level animators, you can make something in this medium. It's something that I don't even think we can make today. Yeah. So I went in totally cold. I did no research on it. I just watched it. Yeah.

It was funny because I haven't seen The Matrix. It's in decades probably. and that was one of the first thoughts I had about it when I was watching. It was like, this feels like very much of the Matrix. Then I realized it was before. And then, of course, when I did a little research after watching, I was like, oh, okay, that makes sense. Everything from like the green text, the number text, but even like the villain wearing those little tiny glasses that Morpheus ends up there. Then like jacking into the neck.

Yeah. It's like I said, it is one of the, the reason I didn't want to give it right away, Akira might have a similar thing where it's like so many. movies have taken from it that when you watch it for the first time you're just a little like, is this cliche? Well, okay, so this is my experience with it, which was I understood like it was beautiful,

especially if we're being drawn and produced in 1995. Aesthetically was really cool. Story conceptually, philosophically, super interesting. The pace of it and like the storytelling was a little

something that I was like not something that I personally enjoy, just how fucking fast it was. No character development. You're just like thrown into the blot. And it just like goes. I like slow. I like give me space with characters. Let them have a conversation.

Let me get to know them. So that is very, that I will say is true to like it deviates from the source material, but the source material is impenetrable. Like that's almost the style of this. This was created. I'm for, I'm blinking on his name. but this is a type of otaku

creation. These people are, these Mungaka and artists are really into like models and guns and just the minutia of technology. Yeah. And it's almost, I'm not saying that the character development

is almost beside the point, but the thing that you're bumping up against when I first watched it was a similar thing where I was just like, hey, where is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and also, like I,

one thing that was like very, very clear to me was like, you brought up Citizen Kane, which might be a good parallel here, because I remember seeing Citizen Kane early in my kind of artistic journey as a person when I was like, maybe 19 or something. Yeah. Because I heard it was the best movie ever made. And then when I watched it, I was like, what's the big deal? But then 10, 15 years later, and after you study a little bit of the history of film, you've seen more

films, you're like, you return to Citizen Kane and you're like, oh, duh. I understand now. You see how it is. You're like, oh, there was before Citizen King, everything that happens after, you're just like. And so when I was watching this one, I was like, I know I don't get it, but it's giving me that quality of like, okay, I know this is important. I just not familiar yet with the anime history and all the subgenres to know

exactly why this is important. Does that make sense? And it's one of those, that's why I always say when I'm recommending manga or animated people, everybody wants to go straight to Akira or wants to go straight to Ghost in the Shell and I'm like, no, you're recommending something that you saw in the 90s and 2000s and was like groundbreaking

but to someone who like, because you've seen The Matrix and you've seen a bunch of action movies that have just been like, I'm stealing from Ghost in the show. It's not going to hit you exactly the same. Yeah, yeah. I mean, philosophically though,

so compelling and like, cliche, but goddamn if it's like, seeing the future. Yeah. It's just, I was just like, are we just inevitably,

we've been making movies about this for decades. We're now living in the precipice of AI, and it's just like, I don't know, I got really kind of sad about it. This would have been a great pairing for the daft punk season. Yeah, exactly.

It was just like, fuck, this is like, it's almost like we have a premonition of our own future. I mean, for anyone that doesn't know, the story is about the ghost in the shell is like, the ghost is the human soul.

in a shell of an android, an artificially modified cyborg, humanoid creature that then runs up against the, what's the puppet master? Yeah. Who wants to then fuse with this,

his superior version, wants to fuse with the cyborg version to create an even more powerful new evolution species? And the humans in this world, like, it's interrogating, like, how much technology can you take on,

how much can you change of yourself before you lose humanity. To your point, with Daft Punk, ghost of the shell, everything that's happening now, the Matrix, you were like, oh,

even back then they were just forecasting that. Yeah. The thing that makes it sad is like watching this as a kid. I was like, oh, that's a hundred years in the future. The future, the future's like,

oh, no, it happened. With then like kind of like a generation, you're like, okay, yeah, no.

All right, so good pick. So my turn, to assign you something. Oh, yeah. So I gave you Sunset Limited last time. And that one is like obviously very philosophically potent with no, essentially no plot and it's all philosophy, essentially.

Yeah. And I'm going to do something that is adjacent, but very almost opposite at the same time, which is give you a short story by Raymond Carver. Oh, yeah. Raymond Carver was when I wanted to be a writer in my early 20s was like one of my foundational kind of texts and authors. He's a short story writer also does poetry. But the way I could introduce people to him

is like think of an Edward Hopper painting, like Nighthawks at the diner scene. Or like if you know Edward Hopper, we'll put some images up here, but like they're very mundane everyday life scenes, but they're packed with so much emotion and loneliness. And like you could just, even though if it's like just a girl sitting on her bed,

the way it's composed and the expression on her face just tells you so much about, about that moment in time and the emotions that were felt. To me, Raymond Carver does that, but with short stories. So I'm giving you where I'm calling from. Oh, yeah. The only thing I'll say about it is it takes place in a rehab facility, and it's about two guys drying out at this rehab facility.

There's nothing much happens in it. It's very still and sterile, but there's so much emotional. I don't know. I don't want to give too much away, but that's kind of the premise of it. Have you heard of Raymond Carver before? Yes, I have. I'm super excited. Okay. So where I'm calling from, can't wait to hear your thoughts. Hell yeah. Thank you.