Dissect - Crowning Frank Ocean's Best Song Ever | LAST SONG STANDING (E5)

Episode Date: August 29, 2023

After Cole and Charles's enlightening, contentious, and entertaining odyssey through Frank Ocean's entire discography, the LSS Boyz are now forced to agree on the greatest Frank Ocean song of all time. They also announce the winner of the "Super Quiz Kids" trivia contest as well as debate what artists should be considered for next season's Last Song Standing. Listen to Cole's Party Playlist here. Executive Producer: Justin Sayles Audio Production: Kevin Pooler Theme Music: Birocratic Special Thanks: Intern Olivia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome everyone to Last Song Standing. I'm Cole Kushna. And I'm Charles Holmes. And in the second season of Last Song Standing, we've done it all. Cole and I have debated Channel Orange, Resplonde. We've exchanged cultural artifacts as wide and vary as Steve Reich and party next door. But we're finally here. It's the season finale where the two of us will finally crown the last song standing, a.k.k.a. the greatest Frank Ocean song of all time. Cole, my boy, are you ready? Oh, I don't even know, man. I'm nervous.

I don't know why we do this to ourselves. This is this is impossible. I have no idea. Our list are so good. Like I went on vacation and on vacation. I was just like scrolling through the list. I'm like, all right, we are them boys. Can I go through the list? Because like, they're pretty good. Mine is obviously better than yours. Objectively, I think actually that is true. You have a killer list, but I will take credit for some of your picks because I like gifted you a few of them. So Channel Orange, you picked bad religion. I picked pyramids. Then we did nostalgia, where you had Novakane, I had Swimgood. Then for our singles, Lucy's, and everything else, you had biking, I had Chanel.

For endless, it was Higgs, and I picked at your best, which is a cover. And then, Blonde, you picked the superb self-control, and I picked the equally superb Knights. Dude, this is like a really, really good list. You have to admit for both. It's a very accurate and fitting representation of Frank Ocean's Cal. I think where it suffers is that we only could have chosen one from blonde each. And so I would like to see a little bit more blonde, but the fan votes.

Maybe they got some in. Yeah. So let's actually, I'll give you guys a quick rundown. I have this episode is going to work. And then we're going to reveal the fan vote in a moment here. So Charles and I are going to first cut down our list from five picks each to three songs each. We're going to do this in a rapid fire elimination. Super quick, not much debate.

That's going to get us down to three songs. that we're going to take into the Royal Rumble. And at that point, Charles and I are going to go back and forth, trying to knock each other's songs off of our lists until we will them down to two that go head to head in the single round elimination. And we're going to crown the last song standing, the greatest Frank Ocean song of all time.

And if you listen to the previous episode, you know that we gave y'all a chance to vote in a Frank song that Cole and I didn't pick. The votes are in, but we're going to do a quick break. And after that, it's time. We're going to tell you what song goes in automatically. So make sure you stick around. Let's go to that ad.

Now it's time to reveal the results of our fan vote. We gave y'all the chance to put in all on the line and get your favorite Frank song in contention. And Cole, we have a bit of a surprise for the listeners. We're actually going to choose not one, but two fan picks to be automatically entered into the Royal Rumble. Cole without further ado reveal the results.

Can we get a little like, I don't know, a little drum roll and da-da-da-da-da. Oh, yeah. Less so extending, y'all are the best. Charles's opinions are great. Cole's opinions are less great. All right.

So we had a lot of great votes. A lot of people voted. I think it was like four or five hundred. So thank you for everyone that voted. Thank you for everyone that's been engaged all season. It's been super fun. Kind of obvious. I think we kind of knew where this was going all along.

We kind of set them up for it. One of the songs by a landslide was White Ferrari. No surprise there. I'm glad it got in. I knew it. I knew it was going to be off blonde, dude. I knew it. Number two was also a landslide.

I didn't actually tally the votes individually because it was so clear it was these two songs. So I'm not exactly sure which one got more votes. But there is, it was very close. And it could actually be Sigfried that got more votes than White Ferrari. but Sigfried is going to be the second fan vote in the Royal Rumble. How do you feel about that, Charles? I know you're, I love Sigfried. I think it's a masterpiece.

I'm going to make a case for it later. What do you think? I'm not bad at this at all because I think we both left the blonde episode being like, we can't just pick two songs off of this album. Yeah. So I'm actually very, very happy that we're going to automatically get another two. Can I choose White Ferrari? Is that okay?

I was going to choose Sigfried. I was going to, I don't care. I need Sigfried. All right, I'm going to choose why. Because I was listening to Blondea and I was just like, you know what? I was wrong. White Ferrari is a jam.

I want fucking white Ferrari. So I'm going to pick white Ferrari. You're going to pick Siegfried. I'm feeling really good about the list now. Were there any songs before we go that were like closer than you thought? Like which ones were like sneaky picks where you're just like, God damn, this is getting a lot of votes. It was.

Actually, the weird thing is it wasn't a clear number three. Like, you thought, really? You thought, like, thinking about you was going to get votes? I saw literally one vote for thinking about you out of, damn. So, and, like, very few off of channel orange. They're mostly off of blonde. Solo got some love. Nike's got some love.

Ivy got some love. But it was pretty spread out. It wasn't, there wasn't a clear number three. Lens, provider, I saw some votes. It kind of just reminded me what this whole exercise. I was reminding of. Frank's catalog is so great, so consistent, so varied. People just love different songs, and I think we all love all of Frank's songs, and we just kind of gravitate towards ones that might hit us personally better, but his catalog is just immaculate, I think. We're

going to talk about our takeaways later, but holy shit, man. But yeah, as far as the list goes, I think I think we're in a really good, very fair representation of Frank, especially now that we got the fan votes in. Yeah, could not agree more. But now it's time to crown another winner. All right. The greatest title we've ever had after two seasons, Super Quiz Kids. How are we going to top Super Quiz Kids? I don't think we will.

Super Quiz Kids is the segment of the show where Cole and I attempt to stump each other with trivia questions about each album. At the beginning of the season, we announced that whoever answered the most questions right over the course of the season would win a Frank Ocean Homer Cockring. Justin, were we able to get approval for the $25,000 cock ring? And if you say no, we're fucking, we're done. I'm cutting the mics. We're not doing this anymore.

Look, it's, you know, we work for a large company here. It's a lot of bureaucratic red tape, but I am happy to report that, actually, no, you've got to pay for your own goddamn cock ring. The missus is going to be so disappointed. Christmas has not come. early too. Maybe we need to make a digital, like, replica, an NFT, conquering or something. An NFT? I was more so thinking of, like, you know, a 3D printer. We three print our own color orange. But Cole, can you give us the results of Super Quiz Kids? I already know that you

won. We're going to walk through it because it's not actually very clear and I need your help. And maybe Justin can weigh in as a third party here. Okay. But I'll go backwards order. blonde I got zero Charles you got one you gave me some unrealistic questions I listened back through all these to tally these votes

and oh by the time blonde I was tired of you getting some so I'm just like yo I need to go OD on this okay fair okay so singles I got two you got one nostalgia ultra

I got point five and you got zero and this is where it gets a little bit contentious so on the opening episode Channel Orange I got clearly got one, you clearly got one, then we needed a tiebreaker. You didn't have a third question. I did,

and you got my third question right. So you came out of it with two, and I came out of it at one. So the total with that in mind is Cole 3.5, Charles four, if we're counting that bonus question as a full point. But it wasn't quite fair because I didn't get a third question to try to answer. So I'm going to say that I think that you should win because you came prepared with a bonus question. And as always, I was just like, yo, we're going on vibes. So I think I should be penalized for being the vibes king. Sometimes you're not supposed to. This was like super quiz kids.

It's not for the vibes. It's for preparation. Here was my proposed solution is that you get 0.5 for that. And we end up tying, therefore, having to share as a symbol of our friendship. We get to share the cock ring. Oh, this is beautiful. Oh, man, this is great. We could be like the power twins off the super friends where the rings unite and like one turns into like a green tiger and the others in the puddle.

This is great, dude. The L-DUPS boys. All right, 3.5. We're friends forever. I agree with this. Justin, does that seem fair? It seems fair. It also seems like a couple other things too that I won't say.

But it's, um... Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. none of that, okay? This is a podcast for the he, she's, gays, and days. We love you all. Justice Frank Ocean does. It's no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

It's more of a sanitary thing. Oh. Ew. Justin. Stop. No. You're polluting something that was nice and pure between boys. So, it's almost time to begin the Royal Rumble.

But before we start cutting down our lips, I have a few questions for you. Last long standing, this is something special. It's something that we created together. What is our overarching criteria for picking an artist's greatest song? Like, we will then talk about what it takes to be, Frank Ocean's greatest song, but like our platonic ideal in a vacuum to you, Cole. Like what is a last song standing?

Yeah, I mean, as concisely as it can put it, as far as it's possible, it's the one song that represents all aspects about what defines this particular artist. So the category kind of changes per artist. You have to kind of start with the artist and work backwards and kind of figure out what makes Frank Ocean, what makes Kendrick Lamar, Kendrick Lamar, and figure that out and then try to find the song that best represents all of those attributes. But yeah, I think that's my most concise definition is the one song that represents all aspects of what defines this artist. That sounds about right?

No, that sounds definitely right. I look at it as, you know, if an alien comes to Earth and he's like, yo, because what that Frank Ocean doing? What's that it? And I want to be a fan. What song? You need to be able to give them a song and be like this. If you don't listen to anything else, this will convince you.

And I think what we've learned, if we're talking about the criteria of a Frank Ocean song, over the course of the season, this was almost a more difficult. exercise to do than Kendrick because I think Kendrick and Frank Ocean are both album artists, but I think Kendrick is a little bit better at providing songs, whether it's like a money trees or a mad city, these different things where I'm like, I can listen to money trees without listening to the rest of Good Kid Mad City. I can't listen to self-control as much because I'm like, once I listen to self-control, I want to listen to like all of blonde, but that's the same thing with nights. That's the same thing with pyramids or bad religion, which makes this exercise almost harder

because I don't know if Frank has that many songs in his catalog that can do that, which almost I'm probably going to end up bending the rules a little bit this time because Frank Ocean is so singular. Is that, is that like fair? I think that's fair. I mean, it is challenging because he he does so much and his short career in terms of like output is so varied right the the transition from channel orange to blonde is

was such a leap it almost feels like two different artists in a way blonde was just such an evolution from channel orange that you know as we'll probably talk about later like the debate for me was like can a channel orange song represent Frank Ocean you know because blonde is so much of who he became

but for the world if we're going to be like real for the world, Channel Orange is probably a more recognizable album. Right. Even if it is not the better album. Like, I was out at a bar talking to a friend. And even he was like, no, like, blonde is so much light years ahead of Channel Orange. It's almost like talking about two different artists. Not saying that everything he released before was bad, but I think my biggest takeaway from this whole.

exercise is like this we've only done two seasons but like I don't know if we're ever going to have that quality jump of another artist like can you think like what other artists can you think of where the jumping quality is so massive it almost recontextualizes their whole career I'm struggling to think the first one that comes to mind just showing my bias is radio head from I thought you're going to say radio head the bends to okay computer is insane and you can kind of argue that okay computer to kid A was equally insane but those I mean, that was such a leap at the time. It was like two different bands and really redefined who they were and kind of set them on a different course than what everyone was thinking they were going forward to do.

You know, they went from, you know, a slightly above average 90s rock band to the saviors of rock and roll quite literally. So that's the first one that comes to mind. But it's not, yeah, it's very, very few and far between. That's why, you know, last time, and maybe this is a good way to segue way into the next section, which was kind of my biggest takeaway from revisiting Frank's entire catalog, was that jump from Blonde, just Channel Orange to Blonde and just blonde on its own. I've always loved Blonde since it came out. I did a season on it.

But in the years, it's been seven years, we just had the anniversary, which is crazy. It's been seven years since Blonde came out. Gee, you are. Doesn't that feel? Dating me, bro. Like, oh, I feel old. wash. Yeah.

But it is, it's passing all the tests in terms of like longevity. I feel like I love it now more than ever after returning to it and really sitting with it. It's, it just, it feels like just, I re-reminding myself that Frank is as good as we say he is.

You know, it's been so long that he's put out an album. But Blonde makes it so clear that he can quit today. And he's a legend forever. Don't say that. He's about to pull a Lauren Hill. Don't say that's what I was going to say. I was going to compare it to Lauren Hill because he could stop exactly how

Lauren Hill stop and I think we would regard him in the same exact way that we regard. I don't want that to happen. But if it did and you want to, you want to wait around for five hours every single time. Like he's about to perform live. Doesn't that sound accurate though? It sounds so accurate, especially after the Coachella performance from this year.

I'm just like, yeah, we might just not get Frank performing live at all anymore. I know. To be fair, you didn't come out at the Earl Sweatshirt show. I know. You just, yeah. I saw for like literally half a second.

But what, so what about you? Like, what was your biggest takeaway like revisiting his catalog? How much the stuff before blonde captures such a specific time? Mm.

Where I think like if you take an artist like Drake, Drake is a very like timely artist. I don't know if he makes timeless music. And like there are timeless straight songs, but like when you listen to Controla, you know, it takes you back to a moment where I'm like, everything after this was sounding like Controla. I think Frank early in his career had that where Channel Orange, you can listen to super rich kids or monks or anything.

And like in good and bad ways, you could be like, oh, no, this feels like this time. Whereas with Blonde, and I would even say some songs are endless and the Lucy's, that whole era, it's him becoming a timeless artist where Blonde could come out now and it would still sound as futuristic and ahead of the curve and that's what's so interesting because we don't see that that much

in modern music. You don't see artists becoming timeless just because if you have to release an album every year, every other year, how could you make timeless music? It takes, blonde took him forever to make. And that's actually what after this,

season I want from artists more is like you know take three four five years between albums stop giving us this mid it's fucking fine yeah I mean that's how I feel about Tyler and it sounds like he's finally breaking his every other year streak this year because he hasn't come out with a project he did the deluxe version of call me if you get lost but I think he's finally taking more than two years to make an album I am so glad he's hopefully decided to do that because I want that I want the Tyler album that takes him four years to make not two years to make I was I want Igor on steroids. Like I think he had like,

Igor is a great album, but I think Tyler actually has a perfect album in him. Yeah. To your point, it might take four or five years instead of taking like a year and a half too. I, Tyler is a great example of him. I think he could be on the cusp of doing something like that.

Yeah. And let me just, before we move on, I got to just have to admit something here. So my personal top three albums of all time has been pretty set for a while. And I think this exercise now blonde is like creeping into that list and has it might even have like a case to get into my top three, which is. So my top three, Tabim of Butterfly. We've talked about this last season. Yeah, you can kick that on.

place. Easy. Kid A. That's never leaving. Kid A radio head. It's just that is part of me. And then Yeez us by Kanye West. Well, all right. Blonde is a better album than To Pibba Butterfly. easily. And I think blonde, like, now knowing everything that we know about Kanye and re-listening to some of Jesus, I'm just like, Blonde is a better help than Jesus. And I love Jesus. And that's what I'm saying. Like, if I was taking, and the thing with blonde is that I didn't quite live through it in the same, I told my blonde story last episode. And so I, so where it becomes like favorite, you know, it's a, to Pippa Butterfly is great musically, but it also represents something in my life. Same with Kid A, same with Jesus. Where blonde kind of misses that. But if I was like,

objectively speaking, I might have to say blonde, oh my God, do it. Kick easis off. Kick easis off. Do it. Or even Tipa of Butterfly. All right. Blonde is so, Justin, can you come?

Like, we're belaboring this point. We will get to the preliminaries. Justin, I need you to jump in really, really quick. Can you tell our friend that blonde is easily a better album than to Pima Butterfly? Why are you trying to do this to me? Like they, they, you know you want, no, you're trying not to get yelled there. Well, I was about to say the listeners have had a whole season to get used. Can I tell you a quick story about, um, about Stockholm.

Yeah. Charles and I were just in Stockholm on a Spotify trip, shout to the mothership. And Charles was holding fort in front of about four or five people. And he just stops midthaw and he goes, you know, I've been thinking about it. Since I came to the ringer, I haven't been wrong. wrong about a single take. So, yeah, so he brings that energy to every podcast.

The listener gets me for like 30 seconds at a time, right, for over the court, they get it like a total of four minutes of me and I'm using most of it right this second. I have to now argue that like the defining album for this podcast is, should be kicked off the list for blonde. It should. I have to do that. I can't go there.

All I can say is I would. rather listen to Blonde right now. You're a coward, Justin. You're a coward. We'll talk to you later. I thought you would back you up. Just even me having that conversation is wild. Like that is a top three that's that's been there for quite a while. And blonde is that good. And I think if I was being objective, it would probably, if I remove this objective part of this, my favorite list, like, it would probably, it would probably be in the top three. So hot take cold. I'm, I'm infecting you. I'm infecting your mind. Fucking love it.

But guys, we belabor the point. It's fucking time. The preliminaries. Cole and I are going to cut down five songs to three. We're going to attack each other. And at the end, we are going to enter the Royal Rumble with three songs, correct? Only three. Three songs each plus the fan vote each.

And to raise the stakes in this segment, Cole and I will actually be eliminating the two songs from each other's list. That means I get to cut any two songs from Cole's list without debate and vice versa. Cole, you have bad religion, Novakene, biking, Higgs, self-control. I have Pyramids, Swimgood, Chanel, at your best, and Knights. Cole, get Higgs the fuck out here. Don't let me just know. There's like absolutely no way. It's your pick, but I agree.

I mean, looking at the list, Higgs is great. Love it, but it's just not in contention as best. So no debate there. All right. I'm looking at your list now. Damn, it's not obvious, to be honest, but I'm going to have to go just because it's a cover.

At your best, your love. No, don't do it, bro. But let me just say this about this because I was talking to Cam. People know Cam Dissect Co-Writer. And he made a great point about At Your Best in terms of it being actually could be in contention for Frank's best because it's Frank Ocean and because Frank is an artist that looks back

and re contextualizes the past. He does that in his own life, his own memories, his own music. That it's very fitting of Frank Ocean who does that as an artist to take a song that means something to him from the past and re contextualize it now.

But great point, but still, it can't be a cover. So I'm going to just go without your best. I'm going to go like below the belt now. Get biking the fuck out of here. Get biking. out of here.

Wow. The list to begin with, man. Really? Okay, I didn't, yeah, that's a curveball. I thought, I thought you were going to do something else. Come on. Dog, you know there is no conceivable way. Biking would even get to like the last two or three songs.

Like, it just, there's no way, man. Yeah, I get. All right. I love biking, but I'll resign. You're right. Okay, so, damn, you're list. Pyramid Swimgood, Shinn. and nights.

I love swim good, but it's got to go, dude. I'm sorry. Swim good's out of here. Excuse me? Go drowning in the ocean. Swim good is out, son. This is like... You're shocked.

Like, you just slapped me in the face. Jeez. Swim good is so good, though. It's better than Novakene. Which is still on your... Novocaine is still on my list. You know what? That's fine. So you have bad religion, Novocaine, self-control, and Sigfried. I have pyramids,

Chanel, Knights, and White Ferrari. We good? We're looking good. That's a pretty impeachable list on both of our halves. All right. Now we officially have our three picks plus our fan vote. Cool. We have to talk about it. Channel Orange. We can only take, like, we're only taking one channel or in song. Okay. Pyramids versus bad religion. I think the people have spoken

from votes, from replies, they're not fucking with bad religion anymore, Cole. Are you going to stop for it still? I want to. Because here's the thing. Pyramids is a masterpiece. It's epic.

It wowsy over and it's scale. But bad religion is such a beautiful, tragic, haunting expression of what Frank Ocean was feeling on Channel Orange. I think it's the culmination of the entire album, emotionally. It's potent. It's not going to wow you over in terms of like crazy sonic landscapes. But for what it is, I think it's perfect.

That being said, looking at the lists, it does feel like it lacks a little something. production wise it feels very not representative of you know this is we talked about blonde and and Frank's transformation about nostalgia on blonde bad religion is the epitome of like

of him feeling hurt still by his past and he hasn't found that freedom and I love it for that but also I think if we're trying to figure out what song is going to represent Frank Ocean singularly, I don't think it can be a song like bad religion. It doesn't show me like the optimism and the freedom of. He's still imprisoned by the motion where I feel like what Frank has taught a lot of us

is how to liberate yourself from the emotion of a bad religion. So love the song for what it is, but I will submit and take it off my list. I didn't even have to fight for pyramids because I was about to just be like, if we're talking about which is like the better song on a construction basis in terms just like how lush it is, the production, how much people love this song and what he is able to evoke with his lyrics. I think Pyramids is just a better song. In this exercise, I would agree. That's why I'm not trying to fight too much. And plus the fan votes, I'm definitely, you know, we want a song that people are going to be happy with that Frank fans are going to feel like

is a good representation. And not a lot of people are vouching for bad religion, which I was actually very surprised about. Wait, how are you surprised, dude? I told you this. I just laid out the case. I'm not going to belabor it too long. It's a beautiful song. If you don't think it's a great and masterpiece in its own right, go listen to it again and cry and you'll realize the truth. So let's kick off one of the fan votes, White Ferrari versus Sigfried. Because right now, as it stands, we have four blonde songs. We can't bring all of them. Yeah, you're right. What about SIG-free to you is better than White Ferrari? Okay, so this is interesting because, again, this is where it gets tough because I vouched for right Ferrari last episode as one of my nomination, so it's not like I'm not going to shit on it.

I do want to make a subtle, because we didn't really, we talked about SIG-free, but we didn't really break it down. So I do want to just quickly touch it, give it a proper case, and why I do think think the fans are right in overwhelmingly choosing Sigfried as, you know, a legitimate song in the last song Standing Exercise. I think it's really unique because it's the one song that we know he wrote in 2013, or at least part of it, definitely the first half. He was performing a version of Sigfried on the Channel Orange Tour. I think it was mostly the first half. And with that in mind, and knowing where Frank would go on blonde and all the freedom aspect of blonde, relinquishing, you know, his record label, all the stuff we talked about last episode.

You can see the seeds of it and him consciously working towards this decision in Sigfried. So if you keep that in mind and I'll just read you some of the lyrics, you hear him essentially work out this decision to abandon his life as a quote-unquote pop star and live in this different direction that he showcases on blonde. He says, I can't relate to my peers. I'd rather live outside. I'd rather chip my pride than lose my mind out here. Maybe I'm a fool. Maybe I should move and settle two kids in a swimming pool. I'm not brave. And then later he says, I'm living over a city. I'm taking in the homeless sometimes. I've been living in an idea, an idea from another man's mind. Maybe I'm a fool to settle for a place with some nice views. Maybe I should move, settle down, two kids in a swimming pool. You know, he's very clearly saying, here's the life people expect me to live now that I've found success or even just a more like classical, traditional lifestyle. But also he has this vision of independence and freedom that he wants to strive for.

He feels like that's where he needs to go, but is also battling the expectations of society. And then we get the middle portion of the song where he says, this is not my life. It's just a fond farewell to a friend, which is a interpolation of... Oh, oh, it's Elliot Smith. Yeah, so he interpolates this Elliott Smith song, which is about him. Fawn farewell to a friend was about heroin and him. doing one last hit before he got sober. But this is Frank reinterpolating it and saying,

this is my fond fail route to this past life. And I'm now moving on. I have made the decision to break in my life and it starts now. And so knowing what Blonde represents, I think Sigfrid as an expression of that and like the kind of the inciting incident, you know, we get the inciting incident right here of him making this deliberate decision to change his life. and we know the results of that, which was blonde,

which was the freedom of blonde, which was the freedom from his record contract, all the stuff we talked about. So I just think that's very important to the Frank's story, and it represents Frank very, very, very well. And very uniquely, because we don't get this kind of, you know, he doesn't get this specific. He usually rap sings in metaphor,

but this seems very clear to me. And then just musically, on its own, a singular song, SIGFried's an odyssey. It goes up and down. There's several cadences, several, there's not a hook, but there's several memorable moments. You know, it's, I think if we're talking about it in terms of versus White Ferrari, I think it's a better expression of what White Ferrari does atmospherically production-wise. But does Siegfried work outside of the album is my question.

Yeah, that's a great transition into the debate between the two because I did the exercise this morning, actually. I listened to, because we talked about this last episode, but the beauty of this stretch of songs is that we get White Ferrari, Sigfride, Godspeed. Yeah. And that is the beauty of this moment of the album, is those three songs working in tandem to give us the catharsis of the entire album.

But in a single song exercise, I do think White Ferrari is a song that you can give someone else and it functions better as a single song. Sigfried pulled outside the album, is it makes sense to a Frank Ocean fan, but if I gave that to whoever off the street, like, it's, I think it'd be a tough listen. So that's why, because you convince me that, like, potentially, if you're bending the rules,

we pick Sigfried, because you're, you're convincing me. But White Ferrari is, I think White Ferrari is Frank finally writing the perfect execution of songs that we have heard of in the past where the car is the motif, the car being this nostalgic symbol that is wrapped up in love. And white Ferrari is finally,

when it goes from him writing a bunch of like slightly corny songs, to him write something that is honest and true and universally felt. But I would concede that, that I don't know if white Ferrari is a better written song than Sigfried. So should we therefore take Sigfried, even if White Ferrari exists better as a song outside the album?

See, this is just where it gets really tough. Because what I personally look for in music, even though I vouch for White Ferrari last episode after kind of doing this exercise, Sigfried feels more ambitious. And you can knock it for that, but it feels more epic and scope in its own way. It feels more in line with a song like knights and pyramids in terms of just an odyssey. Obviously they don't sound like,

but just in terms of the ambition of the record where White Farrari is a little bit more in line with songs like Ivy, self-control, those types of songs, where it's a little more contained, where I appreciate kind of the meandering, searching quality of an audits, of of Sigfried. So my personal vote, damn, it's hard though. White Ferrari is so good. I'm leaning towards Sigfried.

Like, you've actually convinced me that I would rather fight for Sigfried just because we have better songs than White Ferrari from Blonde already on this. So my case would be

specifically self-control. I actually think is, and I'll save my self-control, thoughts mostly, but it's a better expression. White Ferrari and self-control are parallel songs in terms of themes to me. I think self-control is a better, in this exercise, is a better

expression of that, where Sigfried does something different. And I think for maybe, yeah, if we're just looking for things to push us one way or another, I think Sigfried shows more than White Ferrari in this exercise, especially knowing that we're going to probably keep self-control for a while here. So,

I'll take Sigfried as well. All right, let's do Sigfried. Let's kick White Ferrari out. All right. RIP White Ferrari, though. Shot out. I love that song. We're not shitting on it. Just Frank fans control yourselves. Now, I have pyramids, Chanel, and Knights. You have Novocaine, self-control, Siegfried.

Let's talk about pyramids versus Chanel. Hmm. Interesting. I like this. I think these are both. Like Frank Ocean does not really make pop songs. to, in the traditional way that we think of like sonically what a pop song is, but Pyramids and Cheneau are two of the ones that are him doing that type of thing. I prefer pyramids more. I think that it's more expressive.

It has more of a pulse, but it is dated in terms of just like the EDM of it all does date it in a way that, like, there are some more. lines on Chanel that are dated, but... It's a knife? Yeah. I can take a stray bar like it's a knife over the fact that like the thing that's always going to ding pyramids is that it sounds like the EDM of that era, even if it is like the best expression of an R&P artist doing that thing.

This is tough. I'm leading that we keep Chanel. Wow. Over pyramids. even though I personally like pyramids more, because also, if I'm going to be real, I think pyramids and knights are similar songs in terms of like these are once again, very poppy songs. I think Knights is a better expression of a longer song with beat switches,

taking you on a journey. Knights does that better than pyramids. I agree. And I also very much agree with Pyramids. sounding dated. And it's not dated in a bad way. You can still listen to pyramids and enjoy it. I listened to it this morning is fucking great.

Like it's a phenomenal masterpiece of a song, especially at this time and at this time in Frank's career. To have that be your second single off your debut project is historic. Like that's what the greats do. They challenge you from the start. He was doing that back in 2013. Like I love that about that song. But especially that because you brought up Knights, which might even be the better bout, if we're already thinking about knocking pyramids off, Knights is a better expression of the form, right?

Like they're totally two different songs sonically and conceptually and thematically. But ambitiously in terms of like what they are trying to do and the journey that they are taking you on from a narrative and a sonic perspective, I think Knights is a near perfect, if not. perfect song in a way that like if I'm calling pyramids dated that means that it's like it can't be a 100 it's probably in the like 90 to 93 range that's where that's where the challenge of the exercise comes in because I do think we like we talked about Frank Ocean is the rare artist that is making timeless music and people throw around the word timeless a lot but Frank is doing it on blonde and can pyramid which is very of its era, be the representation of Frank Ocean,

because I don't think it has the same kind of timeless quality that a Knights does or pick any song off blonde, really. And that's where, that's the biggest hurdle. Even though I love it, even though I think it's a masterpiece, even though it's, if there's any other artist's song, it's probably their top song. And they would never be able to do a better version of it. And yet Frank did that.

with Knights. But while we're talking about Chanel, I do have a surprise for you, Charles. Oh, what's the surprise? So I asked, I asked Cam, who came up earlier in the episode, I asked Cam, I've been, I've been, Cam's been my consultant

throughout this whole process behind the scenes. A cheater, so you're a cheater. Cam's been helping you. He's been helping me a little bit, at least just giving his two cents when I asked for it, because he's a big Frank Ocean fan. People that don't know, Cam co-wrote the Because of Internet season,

the Mac Miller season, the Igor season, he's been a part of the show for a while. I asked Cam to pick one song from either of our lists to make a quick recording of him vouching for one song. And surprisingly, which I came out of nowhere, he vouched for Chanel. Oh, I need to hear this. I need to fucking be this.

It's about two minutes long, but you'll see why me and Cam get along so well. So Kevin, can you play Cam's vouching for Chanel as Frank Ocean's best song? I'm going to be honest. I've been listening, and I just wanted to see if I could maybe help a little bit and explain or illuminate why I think Frank Ocean's greatest song so far is Chanel. Thematically and sonically, this is what happens when you graduate from Blonde University. Frank gets Chanel after Blonde is sort of like the best mainstreamed version of the album in song form.

if some fool wanted to criticize blonde, there's a case to be made that it's like too weird or experimental, that it's too unique of a taste. Chanel deals with that without sacrificing quality or ideas. I mean, even as pure entertainment, Chanel functions at the highest level, Frank's delivery is crazy good and infectious. As you guys were pointing out in the Lucy's episode, you know, Frank's Motivic use of duality is highlighted in Chanel's lyrics.

everything he says is about seeing both sides. And that's a really critical lesson, seeing both sides is empathy, reflection, and understanding. I also, I have to point out, Chanel is like a historic moment in queer music, particularly in the contemporary rap, pop, R&B landscape. Frank's contributions to making the world a better place for queer life are remarkable. Like, we cannot overstate how important, Frank is. He has everybody saying, my guy pretty like a girl. Love is universal, and Frank has helped so many of us figure that out. I also want to point out that I'm blonde. Frank made a loop, and as he said on Sigfried on the other side of the loop is a loop, an impeccably crafted infinity. I think it's kind of neat if you imagine the Chanel logo.

Those are loops turned out and made open. That's what Frank did with Chanel. He turned and opened blonde to the world. The song Chanel, like the brand, is a luxury. But Frank served it to the masses. He gave us something complex, nuanced, healthy, and digestible. So yeah, Chanel, I think that's Frank Ocean's greatest song so far. Thanks so much for listening. Thank you so much for the show. I'm really looking forward to hearing what you guys ended up picking. Thanks, guys. I hate to say this. Like, such a compelling point was made. Pyramance has to go. Like, this is fucking Wow. Like I really like I was about to kick Chanel out and that all right you know what pyramids take it off the board man take it off the board.

Oh my this is a shocking twist of events because I thought for sure you were going to come in stumping hard. Cam beautiful made a beautiful case there. I was convinced and here's the thing I like pyramids more than I like Chanel but if I'm like if I'm trying to be as objective as possible Chanel is a better made song and it does not sound dated. But here's the thing. You want to know what does sound dated. I don't know how it got this far into it. Just take Novacane off.

How is Novacane? We've just forgot about it. It's just been like working there. Take it off, man. Okay, you're right. I'm not even going to, I thought for sure you're taking that off in the rapid elimination round. I can't make it. I mean, I can't make a case against SIG-free, self-control,

Chanel and Knights, there's no fucking way. Novakane is getting past any of those songs. So shout on Novakane, but yeah, that's an easy elimination. I'm not fighting you at all. So, all right, you already said it, but let's recap. We have Chanel Knights, self-control, Siegfried. These are our final four songs. Charles, hold on.

Before we get too far, I did want to mention that Cam, in honor of my Cole's Conspiracy Corner, which I don't have for this episode, he did submit a conspiracy corner. Do you want to hear it? Absolutely, I didn't. Play it. Okay, it's for Chanel. So let's hear it.

And then you got to tell Cam if he's full of shit or not. All right. Chanel is a homophone almost with Channel. Chanel and Channel being linked makes a lot of sense, especially in light of Frank's Channel Orange, as well as his use of two titles for blonde. He's got with or without the E. So Frank was definitely connecting words using only a single letter difference.

So a channel, like in water, is often used to refer to like a straight of water between two land masses. So that's not sea on both sides. However, there's a different type of water channel that maybe we don't always think of, but it's an ocean channel called a sound fixing and ranging channel, or a so far channel for short. This occurs naturally in the ocean. If you imagine the sea divided in horizontal strips or planes, it's like the top, the middle, and the bottom, the Sofar channel is a horizontal layer in the middle with see on both sides. And the special quality about this channel is it is the ideal plane for sound to travel great distances.

For example, when we can measure whale sounds over like incredible vast distances, it's because the measuring tool is placed in the Sofar channel, in that ocean channel. because that is where sound is able to travel the farthest. So the ocean channel, which has the sea on both sides, is the conduit for sound to travel the greatest distance, to be propagated further and furthered. That's just like how Chanel makes blonde, an album that would theoretically scare the schmose,

accessible and enjoyable for everyone as a perfectly crafted single. Yeah, yeah, I can't lie. I need what he's smoking on. I will not. dissected at all. No. Cam, I love you, bro. I love you, my dog. But fuck, no. Get out of here. Come on. Like, honestly, that is like the greatest conspiracy corner that we've ever had. Yeah, now, you need a PhD for that shit. I'm sorry, like, Frank is smart. But now, Frank ain't doing all that.

No, no, no, no. Do you see why me and Cam get along some of them? I'm like, this is why. This is why y'all be talking to each other. Y'all need somebody. like me to come in here and be like, hey, yo, yo, yo, yo, guys, guys. We are scaring. We are scaring. Like in a bad way. So. Can you imagine me and Cam in a party?

I'm going to be honest. Anyways. I think I have to knock off shit. Oh, because. No, no. I'm just fucking with you. I'm fucking with you. We have four songs left.

We can only take two to the semifinals or the finals. Let's add some tension. We're about to hit the semifinals. Let's take a quick commercial break. And then when we get back, it's go time, Charles. It's time to make the hard cuts. All right. We are back.

Cole, do the honors. What four songs do we have? We can only take two songs to the finals. Where are we going? All right. So two songs each. Chanel and Knights for you. Self-control and Sigreed for me.

Holy shit. Okay, so we have three songs from Blonde and one single, which feels appropriate. I think we established that, at least in my mind, I know Channel Orange is beloved. It's a beautiful, perfect record, but... This isn't for the Normies, all right? This is the same for the Frank Stans,

and then Frank Stans understand that blonde is it. Blond's the album. It's what set really, really, really set Frank apart from all of his peers. And it feels fitting that we have... It's properly represented in the semifinal round. So, I'm taking a look at the... list. I do think Chanel feels like a weak link here. Is there another song that you feel that you might want to put it head to head again? Because on your list, I think Chanel is the one that

that I would probably pick as the weak link. I think Chanel needs to go because I think Knights is just more ambitious. Even if I agree with Cam, like if we're talking about a perfect delectable bite like Chanel is it. It is easy to on for like it hits a lot of the things that we talked about where it's like if nobody if you're talking to someone who has never heard of Frank Ocean's song Chanel is just a great intro in terms of like oh it's easy to listen to it has that theme of duality it's right there you don't have to listen to it a bunch of times to get it it's just it smacks you in the face and then each time you listen you get something new and I think that could be a perfect song.

I think that if we chose Chanel as the last song standing, I would not be mad. But if we're talking about Knights, SIG-Fried, and self-control, I think level of ambition-wise and level of difficulty-wise, those are just on another level. And I do think I want to honor level of difficulty and pulling that off in my artistry. without sounding to like critic about it.

But I think there are other rappers or R&B singers that could get close to a Chanel. I don't know if I could say that about the other three songs that we have. I think that's fair. And I think as me, like more musical background, what Chanel lacks for me in this exercise, because I agree with all the cam points. I think those are brilliant and really, really sold me on its placement here in terms of like, yeah, it should be in this conversation. but production-wise, it doesn't show enough.

I don't think the best Frank Ocean song can be this straightforward. It's very straightforward. And it's like the beat you could find this in a, like in a beat folder from any producer. That's not saying it's bad, but it's like, you'd be like, oh, okay, where it's like if night,

like Knights is a type of song where you can tell, this isn't just somebody like making a beat. Like this takes weeks and months of tinkering. Yeah. and perfection. And that is the type of level of artistry that the best Frank Ocean songs have. Yeah, if we're talking about what we touched on,

you know, what does represent Frank Ocean. You know, in my mind, it's like lyrically nuanced, memorable, emotionally piercing. I think all that's there in Chanel.

But musically, I think what makes him great is what you just touched on in terms of like he experiments and tinkers with his soundscape so much to so a meticulous level of detail to capture a feeling

before you even hear his voice or hear the words that he's singing. I think that's what, one of the things that really sets Frank Ocean apart from everyone else is before we hear him at all, we already feel something. And I'm not sure I get that with Chanel. Again,

Chanel's great song, a perfect single. But in this exercise, it doesn't show enough for me production wise. So it's kind of In terms of these four, it is the obvious weak spot for me, so I'm comfortable taking it off. All right. I'm good. I only have nights left, and here's the thing.

This is going to be difficult for you, Cole, because you're going to have to convince me that Sigfried is a better song in self-control because I just, I just don't think it is. I think like self-control is perfect. I don't know if Sigfried is perfect. Sigfried is good. but self-control is on another level. You have a point. I'm not sure I can make that case.

But I think in terms of... So here's what I will say. Just what I said about musically, I think musically, probably out of all three of nights, self-control and Siegfried, I think Siegfried's production as a whole represents Frank very, very, very well. In terms of him, able to create a sonic landscape and environment that really no one else I, that comes to mind can.

It's so mysterious and ethereal and atmospheric. Those, and it's like self-control nights have great production, but they're more traditional and they're a little bit easier to do. And again, this is all relative to these three songs. we know these songs are outstanding and not many people could do this if anyone else. But Sigfried, I think, is we hear drums and we hear big production like on self-control nights

and we think those are the songs are the hardest to make and I'd actually argue a song like Sigfried is even harder. They're all hard to make. Sigfried, to create that kind of environment is so fucking difficult because you're working with less and you're expressing arguably more

or just as much as a self-control. So I think production-wise Siegfried has a strong case there. Where it lacks in this exercise probably is could I give, this is my, always my go-to thing. Is like, could I give Sigfried to my mom to listen to? And is she going to understand

who Frank Ocean is off of that one song? And again, if you pluck it out of the album. If you pluck it out of that three-song stretch, does it, because here's the thing, sometimes if we're being honest, I can't listen to certain songs of certain albums without listening to the suite of songs that they're in because it tells such a complete story. It's like a triangle. You made a great point about that earlier in the episode.

Can you do that with Sigfried? Once you take it out, does it lose some of its appeal or power? I think it does. And that's not to discredit because it is in the album. You know what I mean? But this isn't last album standing. This is last song. Exactly. So I think in this exercise, it does fall a little bit short as a self-contained song because it's almost like a song that cannot be contained. And that's the beauty of it. It's contained by Godspeed and White Ferrari on either side of it within the album. But when you pluck it out, it almost feels like, I don't know. It's like taking a cloud out of the sky or something. It's like it doesn't make sense on its own. It's like a chair. It's like once you take one leg off, it's like, all right, it's a little wobbly. Like, yeah, right. Right.

I think we've made it. Like the finals are clear. It's nights for self-control. I mean, this is a great conclusion. I won't argue. I honestly thought it was going to be self-control versus pyramids. Really?

I thought you were going to vouch for pyramids a little bit more. Oh, here's a thing. I made a promise to myself that I wasn't going to let my personal feelings. That's what, that's what it takes to have 100% good takes. You don't let your, you don't let the personal,

the emotions get into it. No, I'm a take a master. I have to honor it. That's why I've never been wrong, ever. Knights versus self-control. So this is really, really tough. Yeah. Because I think one of these songs

is more palatable to a mass audience. And I think one of these songs is more emotionally true. And do you reward the song that if I play Knights at any given time, babies, grandmas, everyone will get it. Like, you just will get it.

Knights is that easy of a song to understand, to love, and to soundtrack various points of your life versus self-control, which I think is better written. and not many artists can make that type of singular statement and package a universal feeling in that way. I think that's very true. I think for me, what Naita is going for it was everything you just said, but also to construct a two-part song, the concept of just that alone,

and pulling it off where it makes sense conceptually, sonically, and most importantly, within the context of, the album, Frank being an album artist, the whole dividing the album in half is just fucking like a miracle in my mind. Like that is something that feels like has never been done before to this level. I know people have messed with time codes and stuff and done symbolic stuff. But in the way that he is able to, because it's not arbitrary, it functions as the sonic conceptual representation of the album's central theme of duality.

perfectly splitting the song in half or album in half in two 30 minute segments side a side B night day all that stuff it's not like he was just like let me hit a beat switch we talked about this last episode but i don't want to overlook that fact in terms of frank a song that represents frank singularly what he's great out that no one else can do the concept part of blonde is a huge part of that for me personally and to have nights and the beat switch that works on its own sonically is a euphorical musical moment also work the same way but even better conceptually is mind blowing and should be acknowledged and rewarded that is probably my case for it my case against nights this is this is kind of a case for a beat switch in general is that sometimes it feels like two songs stitched together

and I do think even though there's conceptual links lyrically motivocally between knights side a side B of Nights. It does still feel to me like two songs that were probably at one separated that Frank found a creative way to stitch together and then having stitched them together found a thematic, lyrical, conceptual link between the two. But in this exercise, is it almost cheating that you're picking a beat switch song that is two songs in one essentially? That's where I'm a little bit hesitant because think about like aside from the beat switch

on either side A or side B of nights, what is the memorable lyric? What is the memorable moment or emotion of side A or side B? Do you have those? So here's the thing. Before I even answer that, I will say, and this will be

me talking about in a roundabout way coming back to nights, I don't think thematically duality is as interesting as a concept to me specifically as what's happening on self-control. So it's like, if you think about what I think is one of the standout lyrics of self-control, when he's like, wish I was there, wish we'd grown up on the same advice and our time was right.

That to me is more human. And I want to reward that. And what I mean is, if you think about Frank Ocean, of course, it's genius that he can make a song like Knights. You could separate the album and half. There's the beat switch. I do agree that maybe it's a little cheating, all of that to be said. But I think we've all experienced, whether it's friendship, whether it's love, whether it's being human, the feeling of not connecting with someone because the people that raised them, the environment that raised them, the advice that they were given is so foreign from your own. and in this pocket time in this pocket universe, you are perfect for each other.

And then all of a sudden, time gets in the way and your life is about to go one way and their life is about to go another way. And it just does not work out. And that is such a hard concept to land. And I think that concept transcends how memorable a lyric might be. and it transcends how catchy something it can be. Because saying something like keep a place for me, all sleep between y'all, it's nothing, is like funny, but also it's so true.

Like in every single platonic, sexual, whatever, how many times in life do humans want love and understanding to such a degree that they will take less just to feel it even for a moment? And that's what I think makes Frank such a special artist is that you know me. I love a pop song. I love a night's.

I love something that is just like two laughs, partying, going on that journey. But what I love even more is when somebody can make me understand something about life in a new way. And self-control does that better. Very true. Very beautiful statement. Yeah. I mean, what it really kind of comes down to like Knights works. in my head and self-control works in my heart.

And I think what we should probably consider is like, what, because I think both make Frank special. That's why he's so special because he can do both, often in the same song. But what is more rare or what is more, what is more, what does Frank do better almost, you know?

Like, and I think so much of Frank Ocean is expressing, the human emotions and experiences that we've all felt in words. And I think for me, at least more importantly, accentuated and accelerated in music, with music, right? Like, the lyric is beautiful on its own, but it's made more beautiful and more impactful by the way he sings it, by the tone of his voice, by the performance of the lyric in terms of like,

we feel, we know this is true. We know Frank is speaking from an honest place, which is, believe it or not, feels less common than you think, what you would think in music, right, where people are making songs that people, you think that people want to hear, where that doesn't feel like Frank at all. Like he, he's really one of the artists that really speak from his soul,

you know, as cliche that that could sound. Like, I really feel that that's true. Like, he works so hard to get past the surface layers of who we are and just get to the, as close as you can, into the human core emotions that we all share in what unite us. I think that's very true what you said about self-control. He captures that more than Knights, more than Sigfried. Because Siegfried feels, and I know we already eliminated,

but it feels very specific to him, you know, and I feel like self-control has a little bit more universal quality to it. And in terms of like the musically, it's like we get fascinated with the beat switch of Knights, the beat switch of pyramids, because it's very obvious and it's brilliant. But it's very obvious of a switch and we get that emotional immediacy of like, oh, shit, like something shocking just happened. And it's telegraphing in a way. When like the beat switch and nights comes in it, you got the, do, do do do.

Like it is almost like a movie telling you like, this is how you should feel now, which is like sometimes why I am very anti-beat switch because I'm just like sometimes for a good song. like this takes nothing away from nights at all but sometimes I'm just like show don't tell you know and like self-control doesn't need so much telegraphing of like hey we're in a new part of the album duality and I'm like self-control is just I also think because you circling back to your point every night fucks every day up every day patches the night up is a brilliant lyric when I hear around your city round the clock everybody needs you like the dopamine, the Sair talk, like, I'm like, yes, go. But neither of those lines are better than anything on self-control in my opinion. Let me hear. Here's the exercise.

There's an argument to me made that lyrically self-control is a perfect song. Because if you go through, like I did this morning, every single line of the song, you can pluck it out and it's poetry. Let me just read you quickly the lyrics. It won't take long. I'll be your boyfriend in your wet dreams tonight.

We talked a lot about this iconic opening lines Frank does. That's part of his brilliance. And I think this represents that well because this is an iconic opening line. Noses on a rail. Little Virgin wears the white. You cut your hair, but you used to live a blonded life. Like, that's the album right there, right? We get even the song title, the album title in the song.

Wish I was there. Wish I was there. that keep a place for me i'll sleep between y'all it's nothing it's nothing and then we get now and then you miss it sounds make you cry some nights you dance with tears in your eyes i came to visit you because you see me like a ufo that's like never because you made you because i made you use your self-control and you made me lose my self-control like what what line did i just read that was subpar that's what i'm said every line is perfect to your point in a way where i'm like with knights it's not that

every line on Knights is not perfect there's just too many of them it's like that's what happens when you have a beat switch and you have a longer song where there is more room for hitting like knives and not 100s

you know what I mean right yeah yeah yeah and it's like yeah a song like Knights doesn't really call for a brilliant line every time it's vibes it's like part of it is just the feeling of it where what makes self-control

so great is because he's hitting all every single component of a song, he's doing arguably perfectly, like, lyrically, melodically, and then here's the point I want to make about self-control, because we talk a lot about beat switch, pyramids, nights, I know people attracted to those songs because of this two-song concept. But there's an argument to be made that self-control actually has a quote-unquote beat switch. There's no drums on the song. But that's switch that I talked about last episode from the guitar part into the strings. the guitar continues, but it's like a different part

and the strings really take over. That to me, it's smoother, so it doesn't hit you like immediately, like a night. It's more subtle. It's way more subtle. But it is, it takes the song to a totally different place, but in a smoother, more emotional. Again, that's the part that makes me cry.

That's like everything about the album is expressed in that instrumental part of self-comission control. But it's like we almost overlooked that aspect of the song because it's not as obvious and there's not a beat switch in terms of drums, percussion switch. But it does, you think you're going one place in self-control. By the end of the song, you're in this totally other place that you could never have expected and exceeds your expectations of what came before. Because again, you could stop self-control after the keep a place for me and not even go

or into that news my self-control part. and stop it before the I I you know you got to and it's a fucking brilliant song but somehow he tops himself through this like I don't know like it's like a window into another world

and the song just opens up beautifully and so all of a sudden and you're in this like euphoric place and it's like crystallizing everything he said before that point in this like sing-songy almost like childlike melody of I I I know you

got to leave, leave, leave, take down some summertime. That's such an odd lyric and way to sing that, right? It's like very almost feels unlike what Frank would typically do because it is kind of as a sing-song childlike quality. But that's to me what makes it great because it's so unpredictable and so euphoric that, I don't know, to me, it's like every bit as effective as a night's beat switch to me. I think we're just trying to convince ourselves and let ourselves down gently, but we have to call it. I think it's self-control. Like, we're convincing. I'm just like, I don't need convincing.

I just feel bad that like we can't take both babies with us and we're just like, second baby, you're perfect as well. You're just less perfect. Charles. All right. So let me play for you something, a little bit of a surprise. Kevin, cue it up, but we got one last cameo vouching for self-control. Let's hear it. Hi, my name is Mabel and I am Coles, daughter and I think self-control out of Frank Ocean's album is the best song out of all the songs in there because I really like the song and I loved it since I was three or four and my favorite bit is when his voice is like really high and I think it's a really great song. How could we say no?

Dog, my heart, I'm like the Grinch at the end of the movie and my heart is just like growing exponentially. That was the cutest thing I've ever heard. Like, you are raising the most wonderful, smart music critic. I mean, I wish music criticism was in a better place. But, you know, oh my gosh, he's coming from my job. That was, all right, we're doing self-control. Like, do you really play self-control for your dog?

Yeah, she's loved this song since she was like three, like legitimately. Like I would play music for her. She's always gravitated toward this song. She loves that outro part of the I. She used to sing that when she was like super little. So I had to get her on here because I know she's loved that song for years now. This is the best. We're picking self-control.

How can we not pick self-control after that? That's a little cheating. You put your put on the scale. You knew what you were doing. But I respect that you played it this late. Because if you played it before, I'd be like, fuck nights. Let's just go. I think it's a great decision.

I'm so happy. It was a song after we taught. It was always like, you know, I was personally drawn to the song. I didn't know what you felt about it. So I was pleasantly surprised when you connected with it. So I kind of had a feeling we might end up here. Going in, I thought I was going to be like knights. I was like, I'm going to stump for nights.

And the more I was like, it just has to be self-control. Also, if you look at the votes on Spotify, Self-control, I think, was first and Knights was second. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I think it's a beloved song. I think it shows every aspect of what we talked about,

lyrically, melodically, musically, emotionally. I think that's the most important part for Frank. You know, specifically, he provides us with emotions and music that so few artists can truly, truly, truly, truly capture. And I don't think there's a better example of it than for me personally, it's that middle section. But you can say, I think for you, it's maybe even before that. And it's, I said this last episode, but it bears repeating. When I hear self-control specifically the second half, it reminds me exactly why music exists.

Like, we need music like this to help us express emotions that we cannot express with words. And every time I listen to self-control, I've stopped in my tracks. And very few artists can do that. And Frank has a few of those moments in his music. But I think for me, where I get most emotionally hung up and stopped in my tracks, where nothing else exists except for the song in me is self-control. So I'm very, give it. happy we landed here. Could not agree more. We done it, Cole. The last song's standing,

season two, is self-control by Frank Ocean. And before we depart, we did this last time, and we got bitten the ass because obviously did not go with Kanye for season two for reasons that should be very, very clear for anyone who has been a recovering Kanye fan for the last couple So we are not doing Kanye. Please stop asking us. But Cole, this isn't who we're going to do. But if you could stump for one artist, who would it be? Because I will tell y'all who I wanted to be.

See, it's hard for me. The fan of me wants to do Tyler, but I've just done so much Tyler on Dissect. I don't think maybe later, maybe a later season, but I don't think it's too much Tyler on Dissect recently. So that one seems fun. I don't have an obvious one yet. So we've done two artists that we both like objectively like, even if I'm like a little bit of a troll about Kendrick. Like Kendrick is a phenomenal artist.

I love Kendrick. Same thing with Frank Ocean. I thought for the next season, it could be very interesting for us to do an artist that we both are like, we don't love, but we don't hate. And but is one of the biggest artists in hip hop and has a rabid fan. I think we should do J. Cole. Like, I think J. Cole would be hilarious. I get to stump for workout.

You got a workout. Oh, man. Power trip? Yeah, come on. That's the thing. That's what I get scared of because I like J. Cole. I don't stand for him like I do Frank or Kendrick. But I do that, I do think that would be an interesting exercise to say, okay, we both like J. Cole.

We don't love him. I want to understand why other people love him. Yeah. And it's like through this exercise, if we're open about it. in terms of like going in with the open mind, will we come to love J. Cole more by the end of the season or will we end up liking him less?

That's a possibility too under so much scrutiny. Will it fall short? So I think that's interesting. I thought you were going to say Drake though. Oh, here's the thing. I can't do that yet. But I would like to, you know, the classic that should be put up in the MoMA,

the heart, the mind, the soul. One day we're going to complete that. We've already done Kendrick. That's why I'm doing Jay Cole next. And then we have to complete the trifecta with Drake. Come on. Come on, man. I'm thinking.

And then my other one, but I don't know if the kids are going to fuck with it. I would love to do an Outcast season. I think Outcast has so many good songs. I'm just like, this would actually be really hard. Yeah. See, I would learn a lot with that season too because I grew up with Outcast, but I never really like researched them that heavy. So I have Jay Cole and Outcast.

Who do you have, Cole? Yeah, I don't have one. I'm open to the possibility. So let me hear your suggestions, everyone. Hit us up on social media. It's in the book. man. I feel really good about this season. I feel so good about the season. We've, we've connected so much. Let's say thanks to those that made it possible, though. Yeah, definitely. Big shout out to Justin Sales. So you've heard throughout the season. He'll also be on the Stinger right after this. Huge thank you to Kevin Pooler, audio production of as always theme music by Bureaucratic. And a special thank you to intern Olivia, who you'll hear in a bit here in a second two. Charles, thank you. This was beautiful. Thank you.

Next year, 24? Where are we in? We are 2023, Cole. Okay, 2024 LSS. It's coming back. So let us know. Until then, see you later. I love you guys.

All right. We're back with our last cultural exchange for 2023. I gave Cole, Miguel, kaleidoscope dreams. You gave me Shostakovich, string quartet, eight, second movement. Oh, you can. Yeah, you got it. Damn. Hell, you come on.

Oh, come on. And then we had a special. You gave me a Coles party playlist. And I have a lot of notes. So how about we start like intern Olivia, producer Justin, hop on the mic. How are we feeling about Miguel's kaleidoscope? Actually, before we get there, what do you guys think? Do you guys agree with self-control?

Do we land the plan there? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Let's ask y'all. Do you believe with self-control, believe that we did a good job picking self-control? I also would have picked self-control. I feel like it's just one of those songs that makes you feel really good about being sad. And it's like you can like laugh and cry at the same time.

So very cathartic. I think it is like also like a better whole song to listen to the nights, even though nights is still very good. So I agree. Perfect. The teens are on our side. Also I don't think you're a teen. I just call anybody that's younger than me. by bad

Justin old head Mr. the resident washed one of us all did we Hey hey hey hey I'm Coles age I'm Coles age I'm Coles age I

was losing my mind as pyramids and white Ferrari were getting eliminated but ultimately I came around after hearing the arguments and thinking about my experience is with the song self-control and just how a beautiful song is.

So I'm okay with where we netted out. I still feel a little weird about the fact that it wasn't Pyramids or White Ferrari. Come on. Give us a 30-second pitch of pyramids. What do we miss? If you didn't have a good time to Pyramiz in the 2010s that you weren't alive. It was, it's that simple. All right.

I think that proves our point, though. Yeah, that's why. I think it proves the point, even though Pyramid's high, I respect y'all. Now let's go to our cultural exchange, Miguel's kaleidoscope dreams. Cole, what did you think? It was

comparatively to what you gave me to the point, that point, it's very tame. I could see while it was the breakthrough PB and R&B, I can know why you culminated with this album because it does, it gives you enough of the classical R&B sound Justin, mostly probably in his voice and his kind of melodic intuition.

I heard like shades of Stevie Wonder in terms of like influence. Not saying he's anywhere close to that, but like there's a little bit more traditional foundation and then the beats are more interesting and more experimental than traditional R&B. So I see why it's like a great, I can see why it took this genre to the masses. It's very, there's a dualism to it that's very accessible. So I'll acknowledge it there. There's definitely some catchy song. on there, particularly in the first half, first couple songs of the album.

Just let my love at dawn on you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a jam. It's vibes. It's kind of meandering and not a lot to hold on to, but fine, I get it. It works. So I didn't hate it. I don't, I'm really curious to why Justin, was it Justin that said it was like top 10 albums of all time? Like, that is crazy to me. No, no, no, no. I didn't say that. I didn't say that. What the hell you doing? No, I said, no, I said that late nights with Jeremiah, the mixtape was probably was probably in my top 30 albums of all time. That's like a wilder take to me.

But anyways. No, no, no, no. We're going to argue about this off, off mic. That is, no, no, no, not here for this. So what, so, but did it, but, oh, actually, Olivia, did you listen to it too? I listen to Cladiscope Dream. Yes. Oh, tell us what you thought.

Are the teens fucking with Collidescope Dreams? I think the teens are. Immediately, obviously, his voice is really good. I think his voice is more interesting than the weekends and Jeremiah, just because it, he was bit more like grit and just like lets it go when he's seeing his high notes. And also while I was listening to it, I was like, I know he either has sisters or female writers working with him. And I was right about the second thing.

He does have female writers on Use Me and, um, he wrote one with Alicia Keys. And now I'm forgetting which one. Wait, how could you tell? Um, just like certain lines. I was like, this is pandering. Like this sounds like it was written by a woman. like making women feel very safe. And that's probably why it's like more tame.

Yeah, yeah. And why it broke through. He's not scaring the hose, yeah. Yeah, it's not scary in the house. Especially like, do you like drugs, that one? Yeah, do you? But it's, oh my God. What a song.

What a song. The whole album I was just like blushing. Like, oh my goodness. Like it would be such a like good date. Um, so yeah, those are my opinion. This is great. That's a great review of kaleidoscope dreams. This is why it broke through.

Guys, I told you I would take you on a PVRB journey. Now you guys can go out in the world and spread the good work. You feel me? Now we have to go to something that was, uh, let's say definitely way less. Uh, I don't know if any women were around. is Shostakovich when he was writing this old string quartet. But the way

Cole described it last week as someone who was very paranoid about making all of these things, I was just like, okay, yeah, I can tell that. Yeah. But it was fascinating to listen to. Like, I think the thing that I've learned through these cultural exchanges that you've

shown me is how much how time was a lot of this music is in terms of how complex it still sounds in terms of like, I think you said it last week, like, this could be a rock song.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I got that. That's why I love that you picked it because you're constantly opening my brain to the fact that just because it's classical does not mean that it cannot sound as futuristic as blonde sounds to us

just seven years later. And this still had, I was like, oh, this still sounds contemporary. Is that, is my assessment, fair, listen to this. Yeah, I mean, that's the, you know, history is like the best filter, right?

So the lot of, most of the composers we study now are long gone, but their music has survived for a reason. There's a reason why people like me specifically still really cherish their music is because it does have that timeless quality where other composers didn't. And that's why history has preserved kind of organically these types of composers. So, yeah, that was one thing. but also, yeah, I did want to showcase, which just comes from my own education of, like,

thinking classical music is this one thing that you hear in movies or whatever. This whole other world, classical music, is some of the most adventurous, genre-bending, experimental music there is, and I'm glad that you received it openly. Olivia, did you listen to it? Were you familiar with this piece? Olivia studied, she's in, oh, you can tell the people, but she has a music major.

she she knows her stuff. Yes, I've had to listen to this before in many classical music like history class, and I've always really enjoyed it. Just because it doesn't sound, it does like go off the beaten path from what we're used to and especially like during its time period as well. Yeah. So I've always been a fan. Awesome.

All right. Enough of this though. Charles, it's time for the party playlist review. give me your opening thought. I'm so curious. All right. So y'all, Cole made us a podcast playlist.

And here's a thing. There are stretches where I'm like, all right, Cole's cooking with grease. But I have a few questions. Okay. Do y'all want to know we are posting this playlist.

To be clear, this playlist will be out there for all of y'all. The first song off this playlist is, Ola Hovito Jay-Z the blueprint and that was the one

where I wanted to ask were you overthinking this call overthinking it why would I what of all the Jay-Z songs to start a playlist with bud

that song is like a so here's my approach I wanted to get the big artist but I wanted to go you can't just play the hit hits like maybe that's just me

but like it's so obvious to play what name your JZ hit. That's a that's an underrated song that I think when people hear it, the reminder of like, I love when I playlists remind me how good songs are that I forgot about. And I feel like that song, I was like, let me start it with a curveball. I knew it was a little bit, you know, off the beaten path, but I was like, maybe this will remind him how great the song is. And I

does, I think it gives a certain vibe. It's a fine song. Justin, what do you think? Justin's the resident Jay Z stand, I think. I don't know if that's how I would describe myself. However, I do have a lot of feelings about this. Dirt off my shoulder was right there if you wanted to go with a Jay-Z Timberland song. It's so obvious, though. This is Timberlin. No, we're at a party, though.

We're at a party. Sometimes she's got to play the hits. We're at a party. You're saying you don't want to play the obvious song. Cole, we're at a party. Holow Vito is a fine song. I don't know. The chorus people sing along to the chorus,

Come on. No, no one at a party. They don't really, though. I DJed for probably about a decade, and I never played that song once. See that, okay, maybe I was overthinking at Charles then. So the next couple, the next couple, I think you got, you, we're on solid footing.

I'm like, all right, okay. Got your money, old dirty bastard calise, American boy, Estelle Kanye West, bad girl usher, so fresh, so clean, outcast, money trees, Kendrick Lamar, J. Rock. Now, where it got really, really, really shaky is you put orange soda by baby Keem and goosebumps by Travis Scott back to back. This is a no-no for me. What?

Goose bumps? No, Cole. No. What? Justin, can you tell? Would you put goosebumps on a party playlist? I wouldn't put goosebumps in my earbuds ever. I love that talk.

I am on the record of never wanting to hear Kendrick Lamar rap about sex. Ever. Ever. Yep. Yup. Yup. Yep. I love birds singing the trap McKnight.

It's probably my least favorite song on there. I'm probably in the minority. It's a massively popular song. I'll just say if I'm at a party and Kendrick Lamar starts rapping about sex, party's over for me. But why is the back, why is the keen to Travis back to back? What's wrong with that? I don't know if Baby Kim has any songs that aren't family ties that you really need to be playing at a party.

Or soda? Come on. People are going to let. No, what. Yeah. No, what. Get that out of here. Did you like the Siza Dochi stretch? No, I didn't. What, Tion Taylor?

Come on. You had to, here's a thing. The other one, I'll ask, intern live. Do you know who JPEG Mafia is? I do. Would you want to hear JPEG Mafia and Dan Brown? at a party. I think so.

To be fair. You're insane. Okay, Charles, to be fair, remember, the exercise was the first half of the playlist was going to be what I thought people would want to hear at a party. The second half was going to be what I thought my party would sound. Like, what would I want? My personal party to sound like. What type of party are you playing JPEG Mafia?

So look at the track list. There's 15 songs and then scaring the hose very symbolically starts off Kohl's. scaring the hose playlist. Oh, I see what he did there. So just, you add RIP because, like, I love, I love me some doom. There is no reason you need to be playing all caps at a party, bro. That's the closing song. Come on.

That's how you're leaving the night? All caps? Hell yeah. All caps, any spells name. Can we focus on some good things on the list, though? Instant Crush by Dapunk and Julian Casablanca is an inspired choice. Okay, that's a good choice. You killed it there.

Which picks off here are you like, Cole killed it? I thought Stick Talk was very inspired. Now, I don't know if that's the future song that I would throw on it when it, like, in the middle of a set or at a party. But I thought it was a good, that's dope. Yeah, Stick Talk's a good one. Here's the thing about Stick Talk. You know, you could go with Comas, you could go with March Madness. It's obvious.

Yeah. But there's a reason, but Cole, there's a reason why songs are obvious in this setting. We'll talk about some of the finer points at another point. Stip Talk is one of those perfect songs that not everyone at the party, not everyone in the club is going to get amped about. But the people that do are going to lose their fucking minds. It's like they're going to be ripping off their shirts, which is the thing that I learned that Charles Holmes used to do with the club. they are going to be they are going to be flipping out it's a great choice did you see okay but didn't you see the detail yeah just to your point ripping your shirts off and then transition into

jpeg mafia no that's where you lost me future into jpeg mafia is it's not and then rosalia right after that that was no rosalia was a good choice i thought yeah no rosalia is a good choice but you can't have rosalia coming after jpeg mafia just it's just but what i will say When the last time clips? Yes. Yes, that's the one. Fucking with it. Fucking with it heavy cold.

That was a great choice. What about, um, did you like the fifth of Beethoven? No. The disco. Also, you have got to have it off watching the throne, which was a, no. What? Hillbillies by Baby Kim and Kendrick into got to have it by Jayzie and Kanye. Two duos, two iconic duos.

There's thought that, go back and look at the detail I put into the transitions. like there's American boy followed by bad girl get it boy girl come on okay so you did overthink this is what you're what your minute goes you know what you're talking to come on um I'm gonna I want to run through this I want to talk about the actual songs on here that I've seen people dance to um got your money by ODB and Kalees that's a song I've seen people to dance to um it's been a while but yes uh American boy same thing but seen people dance to it um so fresh show clean, people love. Money trees, people love. We're doing good. Slide. Calvin Harris,

Franco, Shinne mego. People love it. You are cooking at this point. You're not cooking during this point. The Siza remix, the Calvin Harris remix of the weekend. I've never seen that dropped in the club, but that made a lot of sense to me, especially coming after slide. Tiana Taylor, gonna love me. I love that song. I would get that out of here for a party. The, The both, the Drake and Gucci main song, people do love that. So I think that's a really good choice. I wasn't going to give you a point for that because I hate that song. When that song comes on, they'll play it out of concert.

I'm like, get this shit out of you. I had to get some Drake for you. I couldn't pick a full Drake song. I couldn't get myself to do it. But, you know, if you're DJing, you just drop it. People know that Drake verse inside and out. So you're just like, at the end of every line, you just drop out the sound and people just will shout the end of the line.

It's good to get people amped. Then we switch into Cole's portion. Can I just, again, say, what are we doing with the JPEG Mafia, Danny Brown? I love that album. It might be my favorite album. Wait, wait, wait, live, before, we got to wrap up, but Liv, just really quick. Give us, like, the 30-second take on why JPEG Mafia is actually good to play at a party. I feel like there's just a lot going on.

And it already has, like, party sounds in a lot of. of the songs into it, not every song on that album would be good. Definitely not like Perfect. I do not think most of the album I would not think would be good. Oh, whoa, that's the song that Cole picked. You picked Burfect.

Oh my God. Olivia's face. Oh my God. Olivia's face. That song's so good. See, like what you said about Future, if I heard perfect at a party, I would start fucking going crazy. And I'm usually the one that's sitting, I don't use the one that's sitting in the corner. I said, like, leave patty is the only

one enough people know where it would be like kind of fun. Yeah, I guess so. But it was my party. Fuck you. I didn't actually, I was pretty tame on my side. Like, tank, you, that's you being tame. Hell, dude, I could have got really I could have got one. All right. We don't want to, we don't want to believe or the

point. Let's give out some quick scores from one to one hundred for Cole's playlist. I think that Cole impressed me in a lot of ways. I'm going to give it a very, very strong 75. You pass. All right. I'll take that. Are we, so I want to be clear, is this in a club setting or is this like a party at Cole's House backyard? No. See, that was the thing I was like, I was going to do the club thing and I was just like, I'm just going to feel like that. This is just a party. So in a club setting, I give it a three.

In a party in Cole's backyard, I give it an eight. Hell yeah. I'll take that. Liv, just from the songs you've heard us talk about, what are you giving? What are you giving our boy call? What were the Dochi and Rosalia songs you picked? Dochi was persuasive.

And Rosalia was Siyoka. Syoko. Siyoko. Yeah. Yeah. Those are good. I would give it. I'd give it an eight as well for like a house party.

All right. I'll take that. You did a great job, goal. Thanks. Charles, next season I'm getting your party playlist. Oh, I'm going to kill that.

You and Justin can do like a hybrid playlist. Or maybe it's like Olivia and me battle it out versus Justin and Charles's collaborative. No chance. No chance. This actually might, Justin and I actually might like break up. We might actually fight too much. There's a lot of overlap, but there's a lot of differences.

Yo, guys, thank you again for listening to the second season of Last Song Standing. We'll be back next year. See you soon. Peace.