Dissect - Crowning Kendrick Lamar's Best Song Ever | LAST SONG STANDING (E7)

Episode Date: September 1, 2022

Season finale! The moment is here. The LSS Boyz have been debating Kendrick Lamar's discography for six contentious episodes. Now it's time Cole and Charles are forced to crown the last song standing: the greatest Kendrick Lamar song of all time. First, Cole and Charles will be forced to whittle down their list of songs from 8 to 3. These 3 songs advance to the royal rumble, where they will attempt to knock songs off each other's list until there is just one remaining. LAST SONG STANDING is a new show from Dissect and The Ringer. Each season focuses on one artist in attempt to determine their greatest song of all time by debating through their ENTIRE catalog. Hosts: Cole Cuchna & Charles Holmes Producer: Justin Sayles Audio Production: Kevin Pooler Theme Music: Devon Renaldo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome everyone to Last Song Standing, a show about your favorite artist's greatest song of all time. I'm Cole Kushner. And I'm Charles Holmes. And in this first season of Last Song Standing, we've done it all. Cole and I have debated Good Kid versus a Pimp a Butterfly. We've traded cultural artifacts as wide and as varied as Genuine and Bo Burnham. Ladies and gentlemen, we're finally here. It's the season finale where the two of us will finally crown the Last Song Standing,

a.k.a. the greatest Kendrick Lamar song of all time. Cole, how are you feeling? Are you surprised we finally made it? I'm a little tired. I'm not going to lie. I'm a little tired. Hey, but you know what? What I love about this, I think our friendship really blossomed over these six episodes. You know, I wasn't sure if we were going to hate each other more by the end or if we're going to love each other more. I think it's the latter. So I'm really happy about that. But yeah, I love this. It was a great exercise, mental exercise, critical exercise. I really, really, really. enjoyed this. How about you? Oh, here's the thing. When I say I'm tired, I'm more emotionally tired in terms of like going back into Kendrick's discography, like listening to all the songs, listening to you or mother I sober and really, really trying to get to the core of it. I'm like, man, it feels like running a marathon. But as far our friendship, it is blossomed. Right now, like, I'm going to set the stage for the listener. In the beginning, our friendship, we were just two flowers, okay? We were just two flowers in a flowerless field. But over the course of these seven episodes, we just blossom. The bees are humming. The birds are singing.

There's nothing that can destroy us. Actually, the end of this episode might destroy us because we have to agree. For the first time ever, we're going to have to agree because we can only pick one song. But I feel like it's time for a quick refresher for the audience. For the songs today that are going to be in contention for the greatest Kendra-Lamar song of all time. Is it cool if I go over them, Cole? Yeah, let's hear it. All right. So, Cole, For Goodkin, Mad City, you picked Mad City. Then for Ms. Morale, you have Mother I Sober. For Damn, you have Fear.

Then, for Section 80, you have Rigamortis. Then for the mixtapes, Lucy's, and features episodes, you picked Ignorances Bliss, cartoons, and Serial, and nostalgia. And last but certainly not least, for Tipa Butterfly, you picked you. I have Mad City, Father Time, DNA, ADHD, untitled O2, The Heart Part 3, and Control, and last, and once again, certainly not least, Wesley's theory. Cole, with that out of the way, let's map out how we're going to whittle these songs down

until we crown the greatest Kendrick Lamar song of all time. Yeah, today's format's a little bit different. It's going to be divided in half, first half of the episode. Both Charles and I are going to be forced to cut down that list of eight songs that we just read to three songs each. So essentially, right off the bat, we're going to have to kill our babies. Charles and I are forced to whittle our own list down to three songs each. Those are the three songs that we're going to take into the finale Royal Rumble.

That will be in the second half of the episode. And during this Royal Rumble, we're going to go back and forth. I'm going to look at your list. You're going to look at my list, and we're going to try to find the weak spots. And I'm going to try to knock songs off your list. You're going to try to knock songs off my list. We'll have to defend our picks. And in that defense, in that argument, if we can't agree after five minutes,

if that song should stay or be eliminated, we're going to have an impartial judge, our producer, Justin Sales, is going to come in, tell us who won, and that song will be eliminated or kept. We're going to repeat this process until you and I have whittled down the last two songs, and then finally, the last song standing, the best Kendrick Lamar song. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Cole, Cole, stop, stop, wait, timeout, time out. Are you sliding a $50 bill to Justin right now? Oh my gosh, we need to bring to the judge. The commissioner, Cole is already cheating.

Oh my Yeah, Venmo, Justin, right before the episode No, Justin's going to do a great job He's very, I think he has a lot of experience Of staying objectives here, so We'll use him if needed. How does that sound? Does that sound good?

It sounds perfect. Justin, do you have anything to add? I will just say that I have a lot of experience dealing with Charles on these matters. Whoa, whoa, whoa, you made that sound like a negative thing. I am going to do my best to remain impartial. I'm excited. I hope you guys don't need me,

but if you do, I am here. Okay, perfect. All right. And if you listen to the previous episode, you know that we gave you listeners a chance to vote in a Kendrick song that Cole and I didn't pick. While the votes are in,

and after this quick break, we're going to announce the winner of the fan vote. Let's go to the ad. Now it's time to reveal the results of our fan vote. We gave y'all the chance. to put in all the line and get your favorite Kendrick song in contention. Nicole, we have a bit of a surprise for the listeners.

We're actually going to choose not one, but two fan picks to be automatically entered into the Royal Rumble. Why don't you reveal the results of that vocal? I love your energy today. I'm so stuck. Okay, so it was pretty clear. I think we both thought it was going to be seeing about me or money trees. We weren't sure where that would fall. But let me just tell you, it was a land.

Slide. Sing about me, I'm dying a thirst, got 52% of the overall votes for out of every song we didn't select, 52%. So it was just landslide. Next closest was Money Trees at 30%. So those are our two listener picks. Not bad for Money Trees, though. 30% is high. I mean, if you're thinking about, yeah, every song that we didn't select is in contention to get 30% is actually huge as well.

The next two closest were these walls and pride, but those were both less. than 10%. So it was clearly seeing about me in money trees by a landslide. So I think those are the correct picks. I think it actually says a lot about Good Kid Mad City and it's kind of staying power and its overall impact. I don't know. What do you think about that? Sounds right? I mean, here's the thing. The fact that two Good Kid Matt City tracks got 82% of the vote is wild. I'm kind of surprised at these walls, not because these walls is like some terrible song that I hate, but just more so I'm just like, out of all the Kendrick songs, these walls was the third pick?

That's got a while to me. Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of songs right around the 10% area where these walls was. Same with pride. Duckworth was right there. Mortal man was right there. So, you know,

the ones that you would think would be in contention were right there. But yeah, nothing closest sing about me in Money Trees. And I'm glad that we're doing two because I should have picked sing about me. I've said that over and over on this show. I regret not picking this thing about me.

So I'm glad the listeners came through. And you wanted money trees too, right? Here's the thing. I was going to come through the computer and fight you. If you picked money trees because I'm going to be honest, after the J. Rock Slander you had on our first episode, there's no way you can have money trees. So I think it is very funny that, like,

I was just like, yeah, maybe we'll duke it out over who gets what fan vote. And then I was like, it's kind of simple. That's pretty clear, yeah. The universe gave this to us. It's all is right in the world. I get singing about me. you get money trees. So now we each have eight total songs and that leads us to the preliminary category. The fan vote is automatically in the Royal Rumble. All right? So we are not going to pick those.

Those automatically are in the final round. And now it's time for the preliminaries where Cole and I must cut down our list of picks from eight songs each to three songs each. The three songs we want to take into the Royal Rumble, we're going to do this in episode order, going through each Kendrick album in deciding whether our pick from that album is coming with us or being eliminated. And we're starting with Good Kid, Mad City, and Cole. Here's the trick. This is the first part that's going to break my heart right now. Whoever picks Mad City is down to only two picks, all right?

They are going to have to sacrifice. Okay. So what I'm willing to do as your friend, I'm willing to pick Mad City if I get a favor that I can use at any time in this podcast. I don't know about this. The schemes have already started. You're already bartering with this mysterious looming hook of a favor.

I don't know about this, man. I was actually prepared to fall on the sword and just take Mad City. But this favor, who, think about it. Think about it. Do you want to give up a pick already? when easily you can just give me a favor. And I'm going to be nice. I'll use the favor very responsibly.

And here, I'll build, I'll build in something with this favor. If the favor is too egregious, Justin Sales can weigh in and veto the favor at any time. Okay. All right. I like this. I like the mystery.

I'm going to, let's do it. You take Mad City. Thank you. But actually, I shouldn't thank you yet. Let me reserve that. Thank you for later. But, okay, Mad City, you have any problems with that? Or are you feeling good about that?

that. I'm feeling good about it. I'm feeling good about it. It's the only song that we agreed on, I think besides Rigamortis off Section 80. I'm feeling good. I listened to it. Re-listened again today. Feeling strong about that pick. But round two, Mr. Moran, the big stepers. Father time versus you've picked Mother I Sober. You're going to do it, Cole? You're going to do it? Okay, so, okay. So my plan was actually, so I actually prepared this thinking that I was going to pick Mad City. an extra lock into the Royal Rumble. I was torn between Mother I Sober and You. This isn't even a contest goal, to be honest.

Well, you know what I came to? I was I was going to pick Mother Eyes sober. Wait, what? Yeah. Over you. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, here's the thing. Morale's only been out,

it's at such a disadvantage because it's only been out for a few months. I re-listen to all these songs. And I re-listened to all these songs, trying to just take my analytical brain out of it and just listen for the emotional quality of each song. Which song is just rocking me to my core each time? Which of these have just the biggest emotional weight when I just listen to them?

Mother I sober fucking got me. It was, I don't know if it's because it's so fresh still, and I haven't heard it as much as you, but I just listened to that song. I was like, wow, it's such a masterpiece. You're shaking your head. This is such a troll. I know like, come on, you is a way better song in the Mother I Sober.

I can't believe I'm the one defending you right now, but dude, come on. Really? Really? Mother, okay, Mother I Sober. Okay, here's the thing. Kind of goes against my analytical thing I just laid out. Because when I was thinking about after the fact, I was like, okay, Mother I Sober represents something really, I think, special in Kendrick's kind of overall discography. If you think about his last, the big three albums, Good Kid, Damn, and, and, uh, to pipa butterfly. They all end essentially in the same place. They end in God, in, and Kendrick's faith. It's like, okay, I have all these problems. They're different problems each time with kind of the same underlying issues, but manifestations, it manifests differently the problems for him. But they

always end up with like God. Every, every one of those albums ends in God and in Kendrick having faith in God to like work it out or keep working towards a better kind of future or whatever. Mr. Morrell and specifically on Mother I Sober, for the first time I feel like he actually, like it doesn't end in God. It actually ends in actual healing. Like we hear the work being done in therapy. We hear his wife or his fiancé. We hear his kids. We hear him actually doing so much work to, you know, that four or five years that we didn't hear from him. And I don't know, I just felt like it was like, it was that classic Kendrick ending that we get on every album. but it just feels a little bit more, it just feels, yeah, a little more true, a little more relatable. I don't know. So that's what kind of pushed me over,

where you is such a like, again, this is going to be really hard because all these songs are masterpieces in my mind, so we're just like, just let me say that. Like, all these songs are beautiful. So when I talk about one as lesser than, I'm not putting it down, generally speaking. But you is such a like,

it's catharsis, and it's pure catharsis. You don't get any of the hope or the, you know, it's very one note where I don't know, I just felt like Mother I Sober is a little bit more dynamic. Is that fair? Hey, it's your pick.

You're picking Mother I'm picking Mother I sober. Jeez, this is already off the rails. I'm not picking Father Time. I'm going to be honest. I don't think there hasn't been enough time for me to really, really figure out where Mr. Morale and the songs on it go in his larger discography. So for me personally, I cannot pick Mr. Morale song as one of his greatest songs because

I just haven't, it hasn't aged enough. Like it needs another like three to five years for me to really be like, okay, where does this stack up? But it's fine. This is not my list. This is your list. So you're taking mother eyes sober. Let's move on to damn.

This is easy for me. I'm 100%. picking DNA. Like, we don't have to waste any time. DNA is going on my list. Like, you have fear. So if you pick this, you only have one more song. So what are you going?

Are you picking fear? I am picking fear. Cole. No debate. No debate. There's no debate. Fear is a good song. It's just like, you are going wild.

You were just picking songs. Right. I'm just like, where's the strategy? This is not, this is not my. list. So for the listeners, so far, I have Mad City and DNA. While Cole has mother eyes sober and fear, we're going to go to round four, section 80. I picked ADHD. Cole pick Rigamortis. We both love Rig and Mortis as a song. Yeah. Are you going to pick it? Can I bully you into picking it? Oh, it was the easiest no for me, I think. I love the song. Damn, really? That easy?

Yeah. I mean, Yeah, I don't think anything on Section 80, I don't know if there's a single song on Section 80 that's better than the songs that we're discussing right now, you know, in this big three albums. No offense to Section 80, great album. Rigamortis to me is just, it's a little one-dimensional in this conversation of a best song. As much as I love it, as much as I love when just Kendrick wraps. I don't know if it's a holistic representation of Kendrick of Mars and all of his talents.

So it's an easy know for me. How about you? ADHD, you going with it? I can see you picking that. Damn, you didn't take the rigamortis beat. I was trying to lay a little trap. Be like the rigamortis. Let's fuck it up.

But ADHD, I'm not going to pick. Even though when we talked about it, I do think that it is important in terms of like Kendrick's career and how we think about it because it's his first real hit. It's the first song that I can remember people thinking like, oh, like Kendrick Lamar can do the thing. And it does what a lot of Kendrick hits do. which is it gives you medicine within the honey.

But like it just, Kendrick's had bigger hits. He's had better hits. ADHD is just not, like you said, I don't think there is a single song on Section 80 that is better than something on good kid to Pimp Butterfly Dam.

That's nothing against Section 80. It's just like he was what? He was a little larvae. He wasn't the butterfly yet. No pun intended. And he ran in six weeks or something crazy. Are you going to swerve in round five, mixtape Lucy's and features. Can we say that a person's mixtape Lucy or feature can be regarded

as one of their best songs ever? I think for some artists we can, whether, like, if it's a Lil Wayne, like you can say that. Cucci, you could say that. For Kendrick, who is such an album artist, this was the hardest round for me because I'm like, I mean, I liked Untitled O2. I like the heart part three. I like control. But it seems weird to not. any of those songs as his best of all time because he's such an album artist. Yeah, I think the only case probably, because I agree with you, but the Hart series is such a kind of important body of work for Kendrick Lamar that I could see someone picking a heart song as one of his bests because it is so unique in his catalog, but it's, you know,

it represents the whole arc of who he is and just a handful of songs. So I can see someone going there and he usually is very, very vulnerable and honest in those and free-flowing. So, but yeah, in this case, for me, it was kind of easy elimination for me. I don't think someone's feature was kind of more of obligation that we went through those. You can't really pick someone's feature as their best song. I don't know if we were doing a Nicki Minajua on her most feature probably could be the best. It's a little bit disrespectful to the catalog, though.

Cartoons and cereal, I mean, that- Take it. Take it. Take cartoon and cereal. Take it. You could make a case for it. You really could. It's such a great song. And among Kendrick fans, it's like a cult classic song. But because he isn't...

You're just trying to bait me until like I can... You're just over there snickering. I'm not taking any of these three songs. Same. We can move on to the final round. And I think it is clear that we are both picking Wesley's theory and you. Yeah. I'm so glad you picked Wesley's theory.

I'm so glad. Here's a thing. Wesley's theory is great. Do, were people mad? Do people fuck with Wesley's theory like that? I don't think so. Well, that depends on what kind of a Kendrick fan. I feel like it's a very good barometer song.

If you're a real Kendrick fan, you love Wesley's theory. Do you think people like these walls better or Wesley's theory? Probably these walls. Well, these walls is just more catchier. It's an easier listen. Wesley's theory, man, it's such a good song. and it's so dynamic, so different. I don't know.

I think Wesley's theory is far superior to these walls, and I love these walls. Yo, I couldn't agree more. All right, we have our four picks. In my corner, I have Mad City, DNA, Wesley's theory, and the fan vote money trees. For Cole, he has mother-eye sober, fear, you, and his fan vote pick was sing about me.

I'm dying of thirst. And after a short break, we're going to be back and heading into the Royal Rumble. Welcome back to the main event, the moment this entire first season of last song standing has been building toward the Royal Rumble. Both Cole and I have chosen our team

of four songs to go to war with, and now start whittling down our picks one by one until we both finally agree on the best Kendra-Lamar song of all time, and we crown the last song standing. Cole, are you ready? Are you ready for this? It's funny.

Like seriously, my heart is like kind of like fluttering a little bit. Like I'm getting a little bit nervous. Not even joking. All right. I give it to you. Are you going to, you're going to do the first shot, the first salvo? I'm ready. Yeah.

I'm looking at your list. It's a fucking great list. Mad City DNA West's Siri money trees. I'm going right for the throat because I think money trees needs to go. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. All right.

I think that is clearly the weakest song on that list. All right. You know what we're going to do? My favor is coming. Okay, here we go. I am immediately, immediately blocking this, okay? Wait, what? I am immediately blocking this, all right? Money Trees is a phenomenal song, okay? What it does in terms of Good Kid Mad City, the story that it tells, J. Rock's verse, one of the best verses of the past 15, 20 years. Wow. The week, like, just you saying it's the weakest on. the list really makes me doubt your Kendrick bona fides, okay?

Oh, come on. Money trees, no, I'm flipping this. I'm flipping this on you, okay? We got to get Mother I Sober out of here. We have to debate Mother I Sober versus Money Trees, all right? I would argue, I would argue, that Mother I Sober shouldn't be on this list because it's probably one of Kendrick's most least listen to songs off of his proper albums, right?

That is on my list of why, I made like a list of like, okay, what if there's a song missing, that is the first thing that I wrote for Mother Eyes Over. But as we talked about in that episode, I don't know if that's indicative of it being a bad song or people not liking that song or if it's just so honest and raw and doing exactly what it should be doing for that song so well that it's hard to listen to. You told me, you skip other Mother I Sober, but you love the song. Is that true? I do think it is one of Kendrick's best songs just in terms of what it does. But I'll ask you this.

Cole, I'm going to say my... Don't say shit about a function, okay? No, no, no, no, no. I'm not going to say anything about a function. Okay, okay. Cole, if you had to list your favorite Kendrick Lamar closers on albums, where would Mother I Sober rank? Don't lie.

Favorite closer, who, okay. I have all the closers on my list, actually, pretty much. Is Mother Eye Sober better than Duckworth? I'm going to say yes. Real! I'm going to say yes. I'm going to say yes. No, man, come on.

It is a fucking masterpiece. It's like... This is recency bias. This is, like this is... You think so? Okay, this is where it's really... Like you said, morale, it's very hard to judge right now where it lies. It's working against it in that way.

All right, let me take... Let me use my five minutes to, this is Money Trees versus Mother I Sober in terms of which one we're knocking off first, all right? The reason I'm going to stump for Money Trees is a couple. First of all, I think that Money Trees is easily within the top 10 Kendrick songs of all time. It is beloved. The function that it has on Good Kid Mad City, this young Kendrick aspiring to things that he can not yet touch. Che rock, that feeling of that time when TDE is coming up, and they're still so united.

Black hippie, the idea of a Black Hippie album, is still something that could possibly be on the horizon, even if we're never going to get it. And when I was re-listening to it, the soul that that has, it has this almost unexplainable quality of youth in terms of like where Kendra Mar was at that time, where I think there are certain songs that an artist can only make at the beginning of their career because those feelings are still so new. That feeling of like he, Kendrick Lamar can still taste what it's, what it's like to be like not successful, unsuccessful. He can still taste what it is to be poor. He still has one foot in, one foot out. If things go wrong, if the debut album doesn't do what it

needs to do, we're not sitting here doing any of that. And that to me is why I love Money Tree so much, is because you can still feel on a spiritual level where Kendrick is at in his career. And while I like Mother I sober, I think he's done that thing throughout his career, that type of closer. Even though I do agree with you, all of his closers tend to end in a place of spirituality, of like a type bow giving you hope. This is the rare one where it's messy and it's more about family and the physical realm than the spiritual.

I get all that. but to compare mother eyes over to money trees in terms of his discography is very disrespectful that like that is no no it's very disrespectful here i i i make very very very good points i just have to i have to represent for mother i sober because i think it's getting i don't think it's getting its due credit in the moment maybe that'll change over time maybe people aren't ready to hear a song like this maybe it is too raw too vulnerable but i just think it's i mean i talk last time about you, like this is what I think music is meant for, and I think more than money trees, Mother I Sober is a representation of a song that only Kendrick Lamar can make.

It's what sets him apart from his peers, is that he can go, he can make this type of song, he can get this vulnerable, he's intelligent enough to tell it in a kind of commanding and self-introspective way that resonates. a mother i sober to me sets kendrick apart more than a money trees i love money trees very catchy crowd favorite i bet you it goes off live for sure but if i'm if i'm trying to think about what differentiates kendrick amar from from the rest i think mother i sober is a better representation of that with that being said i am going to concede because because money trees has that it's just been in the culture way longer and people love the song. I do think that's important. I'm going to concede to you

this one time maybe, but I think I'll go ahead and sacrifice Mother I sober. Maybe this conversation changes in five years when we've had more time with this, with Mr. Morale, but money trees, I'll give it to you this round. Okay. So thank you. Thank you for that. We didn't have to bring in Justin this time. It was getting a little, it was getting a little rough. Is it my turn to go at your list? Yeah. But you just kind of did with Mother Eye Sober, but go ahead. You know what? The weak link, get you out of here. Yeah, you?

Okay, why? I'm going to quote, maybe we can throw in the actual audio. But I would like to take you guys back only a few months, if you will. It was right at the beginning of this beautiful friendship. this beautiful experiment. We were trying to pick the greatest Kendrick Lamar song of all time.

And Mr. Cushan has said, and I quote, I'll admit it's not the most replayable song. I can't listen to it without crying, so I don't listen to it that often. Now, if you take those statements together with the previous statements

from this episode of Mr. Cushin, not even standing next to you, only 10 minutes prior in this episode, Maybe let's rewind. Kevin, our luscious producer, can we rewind to Cole shitting on his own pick, you? Well, you know what I came to? I was I was going to pick Mother I sober.

Yeah. Over you. Over you. All right. I think that's really all I need to say about why it's the weakest link on Cole's list. I rest my case. Oh. Yeah, you make some good points.

I kind of, okay, because here's the thing. I was like, I was expecting to pick Mad City. So you was kind of a bonus. I already kind of sorted that out in my own mind. And I, yeah, I kind of spilled the beans early in this episode. So I don't have much of a case for it because I was willing to pick Mother I sober over it. But let me just, before we eliminate it, I think we're going to eliminate it. I don't think that could be Kendrick's best song.

I think it's two one-dimensional. I think it's beautiful and really, really impactful for what it is doing. and especially like as the the rock bottom moment up to bibba butterfly and then we get all right after that and it's kind of like it's like a crux on that album it's it's the bottom before he starts to rise so with this and this is the challenge of picking kind of plucking songs off of you know very strict concept records it's like it's hard to get the one song on a strict concept record that's going to represent everything so that's why tip of butterfly is especially challenging to just pluck a song off of because they're so functional within the narrative of the entire album. You

falls victim to that in this kind of conversation where it is just him very plainly expressing his lowest lows, his most vulnerable fears and, you know, just emotions. But I think in a conversation like this, it is kind of limited. It doesn't really have a hook. Um, you know, he's not going to perform it live. I don't know what the streams are. check, but I would guess it's probably not as big as some of the other songs. So I think in this conversation, it does lack some of the qualities that you need. But I just wanted to vouch for it before I eliminate it. But I will say this. Charles, I'm being softy right now, but I'm, the changes right here. You came out with a fucking suit on right then. Here's the thing. You

weren't ready for this, okay? You already have two songs off your list just out of here. Okay? It's fine. You weren't ready to fight today. I appreciate that. I will say, If I'm going to like compliment you, even though I shouldn't have to because it's not even in contention anymore. I will say if this was like, I was thinking about this today. If this was a conversation about Kendrick Lamar's best performances on songs, I think you is definitely in contention where it is such like a performance where you're like, oh, I'm seeing somebody unlock a part of their artistry that they haven't before. but to your point, it is very one note. It is very much a sustained level of anxiousness and anger and despair that even on a song like sing about me dying of thirst, to me is levels.

There are like, it's dynamic in terms of not only the lyrics, but how he uses his voice in a way that you is not. But wow, you know what? Why don't you go again? Why don't you try to knock off one of my songs? Because for the listeners who don't know, right now, the song's still in contention. I have four. I have Mad City, DNA, Wesley's theory, money trees, while Cole only has... You look so happy right now. You look so happy right now. I'm ecstatic. Are you competitive, generally

speaking? Hell yeah. I'm so competitive. Okay. I am not. I am bivert. I am not competitive. I am competitive against myself, because I like to do very well. But when it comes to, like, battling someone else, I usually don't care. So I think that's another difference in our personality that's coming out right now. No, go for my throat. Okay, I'm going for your throat. I try to go with money trees. I still think that's the weakest song on there, but I'm going to give it another shot with God damn. It's so hard for me to do this because you have a phenomenal list of songs here. Am I about to say Wesley's theory? Fuck, it's Wesley's theory. Yeah. We both love Wesley's theory. So actually this is both of us killing our babies, where I'm like, that is actually to me the weakest link,

even though I personally have such an affection for it, what Kendrick Lamar is doing on that song in terms of just the choruses and the bridge and this instrumentation and the instrumental changing and all the work he's doing with his voice and Dr. Dre coming in is just such a beautiful song. the reason that I have a hard time freely defending Wesley's theory freely defending it is that I don't know if it hits all of the boxes that we talked about earlier

in the first episode where it's not really a hit in terms of the songs on to Pimp a Butterfly it's probably not the first song that I would give to somebody who's not a fan of Kendrick Lamar to tell them what it is I think it's a nice like hey you've listened to Good Kid Matt City

what's up next, be like, hey, listen to Wesley's theory. If you'd listen to nothing else, just see what he's shooting for here. You're going to be very, very happy. I don't think Wesley's theory works also out of context of the album. I think that is actually a perfect song that sets up how experimental, how daring, how sonically different to Pimba Butterfly will be. But if you're not, if you're not listening to the subsequent songs, I think some of that power is lost. Is that fair? That's fair. And that's my main, again, goes back to my point about plucking songs off a very strict concept album. My problem with Wesley's theory in this kind of conversation, it's a beautiful display of Kendrick's artistry. But what it misses for me in this conversation is an emotional quality that I think some of these other songs have where Wesley's theory sets up so much conceptually that he's playing characters in each verse, right? Like he's, he's, playing himself as a younger version of himself in verse one and in verse two he's playing uncle sam and you can have a conversation about only kentrick and mark and do that kind of thing and play

these characters and have these kind of concepts and pull them off but it doesn't give me that emotional you know just yanking on my heart type of feeling that sing about me does fear does even a mad city does even a money tree does you know in a certain way it just because he's playing these characters because he's setting so much up, there's a little bit of lack of an emotional thing that I'm, I think Kendra is brilliant at what sets them apart. And I think in a best song,

representation, it has to have some of that strong emotional quality that we love from him. That's my main problem with Leslie's theory in this conversation. So I'm comfortable eliminating it. All right. Let's get, let's get rid of it now. We got one off my board. Okay. So go

what's the next song you're trying to try to knock off? Remember, Money trees is protected. I said money trees is protected. Okay, that was the favor. Okay. It would be money trees again, but I'm going to have to go, God damn it. I'm going to have to go DNA.

How dare you? How dare you? Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, put five minutes on the clock. Justin Kempel, put five minutes on the clock. Esteemed ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Oh, my God. The suit came back out. Okay, here we go.

What does a Kendrick Lamar Unleash sound like? Arguably. DNA is Kendrick at his artistic pinnacle. It's an artist able to marry the wrath of their youth with the growing maturity of a man on the cusp of his 30s. I could regale you with the technical virtuosity of Kendrick's performance the way he extends the N-Rime of DNA throughout all of his verses. Or how much this song is a master class in Forrest Rhyme.

But the true beauty of this song is so much more. you know what I want to do? I want to ask my esteemed colleague and adversary Cole a few questions. Cole, are you ready? Yeah. If I may, how much joy do your friendships with black people bring you? I feel like a big set up here. Answer the question. Answer the question, Cole. So much joy. So much joy, Charles. Would you say overwhelming joy? Oh, yeah, sure. Okay, my follow-up question. What do you see when you look into the eyes of your black brothers and sisters?

God damn it. What do I see? Do you see loyalty or perhaps royalty in their DNA, Cole? I see the royalty. I see where you go with this. Okay, I see both. I see loyalty and royalty. So, four are esteemed panel right now.

Who's, listen, desperately about what the greatest Kendrick Lamar song was. of all time. Why would you try to rob them of the song that's underlying their history, the things that have kept them alive in a country that has tried the best to strip them of everything? Can you answer that, Cole? Okay, you make some fair points

and you're backing me into a corner with the racial thing. Nice strategy. And you want to know one more corner? That's a nice strategy in this. I appreciate that. How dare you come at DNA? When right now, you have a little song called Fear. on your list. How about you defend fear? Why is fear on your list?

When DNA, it could be argued, is not only one of the biggest songs off of damn, it is a tour to force in a way I don't think fear is. I rest my case. Beautiful, Charles. You came very prepared. I'm very impressed. DNA, okay, I'll get to fear.

DNA is beautiful. I mean, I love this song. I fucking love this song. But, and for all the points you just made, great, great strategy, great points. But it's the same problem that I have with Wesley's theory in that it's kind of one-dimensional. And it's one-dimensional in a really good way. You know, we get the skit before, we get the Fox News thing. So he's just expressing all this anger, this pride, all this stuff. Like, he's covering a lot of bases there. But it is kind of just

this visceral reactionary kind of catharsis moment at the top of the album. And I think it lacks some of the dimension that we want from Kendrick Lamar, at least what I think he's special at. Like, this gets you pumped, it gets you going, but it doesn't make you want to cry. And I don't know if that, like, I think Kendrick can do both in the same song. And so it's hard for me to pick DNA in this conversation because it just lacks that other side of Kendrick Lamar, which he expresses in fear, which is kind of like a very good pairing

with DNA, because it shows you the other side of the coin in the same way, like sing about me, shows you the other side of Mad City coin. Fear to me, as a, I think he said this on record, that it's his best written song that he's ever written. Kendrick said that about fear. And I can see why, because we have three phenomenal verses. You know, verse one is from the perspective of his mom when he was seven. Verse two is from when he was 17, growing up in Compton, going to high school, fearing for his life. Verse three is when he's 27. And then there's like a second part to verse three, which he's kind of like wrapping up the concept of the album. And so you get this like retrospective look at Kendrick and Marr's entire life. He's doing the voice kind of acting thing that we know and

love from him that I think sets him apart from his peers, that he's able to embody his mother, you know, and express the feeling of fear that he had as a 70-year-old child by wrapping in the way, you know, wrapping the emotional quality of what he felt from his mother at that time. Then you get the kind of like, I don't know, almost like possessed, like very numbed, um, uh, expression of being 17 and just constantly fearing for his life. You get that, just a really haunting numb quality that he has in that verse. And then he wraps up the entire album, with that third verse, we get the production that samples Poverty's Paradise,

which I won't go into now, but if you listen to that episode where I broke that song down, now that song is building, how fear is building off that sample and what that sample is saying, and kind of expressing this kind of generational plight. And so from a technical standpoint, just like the words on the page, I think fear has everything you would want in a Kendrick Lamar song. I think the production is top level. Conceptually, it's there. It's an emotional song as well.

I think it covers every single bass that you would want from a Kendrick Lamar song. Am I wrong? You are not. I'll be honest, Cole. As your friend, is someone who respects you. I can't shit on that. Here's the thing. Fear is a wonderful song.

I think it's a very, very well-written song. Maybe I wouldn't agree with Kendrick that it's his best. But hey, Kendrick knows more about me about the art of rapping. So I think I'm going to have to invoke it. I'm invoking the judge rule. Justin Sales! Can you please pick? We have DNA versus fear.

Can you please pick which one goes into the next round? Because I can see both cases and I'm going to recuse myself. Yeah, you guys are calling me in for a really tough one right now. So thanks for that. Yeah, we're putting all the blame on. Yeah, this is really tough. So, am I, a question, am I supposed to just be considering the arguments laid before the court here? Or am I supposed to be taking in the outside context of my learned experience?

I think it should be both. And I also think you should, as our producer and not just the judge of this, you should try to save us from the wrath of the internet. Well, okay. All of that is in contention. And I guess that's where I was going, that last part of this. If I were strictly going on the merits of the argument, I would have to side with Cole. Oh, hell, yeah. What?

Objection. What are you objecting to? Nothing. Everything Cole said about fear is 100% correct. And this is like not to denigrate either of these songs. They're two of his best. But if we look at the lasting impact, these songs have had outside of the context of the album,

if we look at like really the goal we're working toward here, which is what is the greatest Kendrick Lamar song of all time? And, you know, we have to find the sweet spot between influence, impact, and just the overall quality of the song. You got to go DNA. You just have to go DNA. And, you know, they're both phenomenal songs. And I felt really bad doing this because Cole's argument is very persuasive.

But taking in all the outside factors, I think you're just going to go DNA. It's just one of his most iconic songs. I think it's, to Charles's point, is Kendrick Unleashed. And it's in a way that, like, we've rarely seen. And that's what a lot of people just want from Kendrick. Ding, ding, ding. Hey! One more first round. Thanks, Justin.

In my defense, I will. say this, because I've, I think my Kendrick circle, I've cultivated a very tight-knit Kendrick circle through my couple seasons of dissect. I will just say, I agree with you, I, DNA is probably the right pick in this conversation. But let me just say, the real Kendrick fans, the real Kendrick fans, the hardcore Kendrick fans, fear is going to be the choice over DNA. Here's the thing. I think that the funny thing that when we talk about kind of the reception and and everybody being like, why are you picking this song and not this song? I think it's so interesting this experiment because at least how I'm trying to attack it is,

yeah, some of these picks might be basic, but I want songs that like a diehard Kendrick fan can love. A middle of the road only listens to the solo albums, doesn't really listen to any of the mixtapes or the heart, just really the major label albums. And someone who's never, ever heard of Kendrick Lamar to like these songs. and that's kind of what makes this list difficult because you're trying to please three different demographics where it's like I think like the songs that we particularly like sometimes won't win because like you and I have been following Kendrick

we listen to everything which I find is like a very very interesting debate when you read the comments you know what I mean? Yeah and I think what does set Kendrick apart and why we do need to consider like his mass appeal is that is just that because typically the kind of rapper that Kendrick Lamar is, doesn't get this kind of audience, right? They're usually a little too outside popular consensus. They kind of exist just outside mass appeal, right? Like, I'm talking like the lupes, those kind of more heady conscious rappers don't usually ascend to his level. I think what makes him special is that he can do both so damn well, like the best, I think, at both things. And so

you have to honor that skill. That is a very, very hard skill to cultivate is mass appeal with message. And I think that's what makes Kendrakema so special and generational is that he can do both. So you do have to consider that quality. And so I'm happy to go DNA over fear. So right now, I still have three on the board. I have Mad City DNA Money Trees. You just have the fan vote singing about it. The fan vote. Okay, here we go. I'm going to, if we're talking about fan votes before we get into the Royal Rumble, before we bring like the last round where we both have two songs, I gotta be real. I have to kill my baby. I had, like, I was so happy that I got to have money trees on there. But if we're going by past statements alone, I said that I did not

pick money trees in the first episode, because I don't think Kendrick's best song can be one where he's outwrapped that bad by J. Rock. I just, I just don't think. It can't be, you feel me? It's just, It's not going to work. Your best, like, I don't know if you agree, but J. Rock has the best verse on that song easily. On the song, yes. I'll give you that for sure. And I don't know if, like, I want to fight for Money Tree so bad. Like, I'm just like, I want it in the final round.

But if I'm going to be honest, like, if you don't have the best verse on your song as a rapper, how can that be, like, in contention? Because we're really talking about what makes Kendrick, like, such a phenomenal artist. So I'm going to give you that. That's my biggest problem with Money Trees is that I don't think those two verses from Kendrick are close to his best at all. And in a conversation like this, he has to be, he's the one shining. Although the song is great and that's totally his. He made that song.

There's even rumors that he wrote J-Roc's verse. Yeah, he can't get outshine on his own song on his best song. So I'm glad that you're killing that baby. I'm glad that we talked about it again because it is an important song in one of his best. But yeah, that's not the choice. We got to get rid of it. I'm sorry. I'm money trees. I'm sorry. Everybody who voted for it. Thank you so much. I just had to do it. And with that, we have three songs. So after a short break, we're going to be back and we're going to head into the Royal Rumble where we are going to discuss Mad City, DNA, and sing about me as potentially the greatest Kendra Kumar songs of all time. Make sure you stay tuned. All right, we're almost there. We have three songs still in contention. Mad City, DNA, and the fan vote, which I'm very surprised. The fan vote has still kicking. Sing about me.

I'm dying of thirst, all right? God damn. Before we get to the final two, we have to figure out. Mad City DNA sing about me. I think, in fairness, it has to be one of my songs. I like DNA more than I like sing about me. I'll tell you that much. Really?

Yeah. Come on. Yeah. Obviously, yes. Okay, okay, okay. Can you make the kids? for DNA over sing about me though. And the broader

culture in terms of like real rap fans, I could, but I'd be lying. I think I like DNA better because that's, as we found out through the entirety of last song standing, I tend to like those songs that are a little bit more aggressive, a little bit more propulsive.

In terms of what sing about me means to Kendrick fans, in terms of the purpose that it serves on arguably his best album, I'm going to kill DNA. It's fine. It's fine. It got farther than I thought it would.

Yeah, yeah. But I can't with the straight face be like, DNA oversick about me. Like, I can't, as a Kenjah fan, do that. And I think one other thing about DNA that in this conversation rubs me the wrong way as I was produced by Mike Will. And that's just not a representation of Kendrick Amar best song to me. because he's at...

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's be real. Kendrick needed to go to Mike Will because he needed some bangers. Like, let's just... Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, for sure. He was very transparent about that. They had wanted to collab for a long time.

The moment wasn't right on Tipa Butterfly, obviously. And, yeah, I mean, some of the best songs on Dam are produced by... I mean, Humble is the biggest song produced by him. So... But to me, that doesn't really represent Kendrick Lamar to the fullest where Mad City or

Sing About Me both are produced in part by Soundwave Mad City's partially produced by Terrence Martin which is a long time collaborator him. Sing About Me I'm Sing About Me is produced by both Soundwave and Skyhutch and I just think having Soundwave

on a song that represents Kendrick Lamar is kind of important since they've been together from day one. I bet you Soundwave has the most production credits across Kendrick's entire catalog. They're very close that's just another knock about DNA that just kind of rubs me the wrong way in this conversation. Is that fair?

That is very fair. So right now, our official Royal Rumble, our finale, is Mad City for sing about me. The fans have spoken, and I'm so surprised we, guys, y'all got a song into the finale. That is, we should clap it up for them. We should do it.

Yeah, that's good. And I mean, we had the debate last time, like, ranking Kendrick's albums, and now here we are with two Good Kid Mad City songs. You know, I think that speaks a lot to Good Kid Mad City. I think we both had a number one in our rankings and our objective rankings, probably not my subjective ranking, but I think that really goes a long way to even further that conversation that Good Kid Mad City might be his objective best album, right? Here's the thing. I think going back doing this experiment, what I realized is that what probably makes future Kendrick Lamar albums better artistically, but more difficult to wrap your head around, is the fact that after Good Kid Mad City, he's less and less worried about making songs that can exist outside of the album, where it's like, for the purposes of our exercise, I think Good Kid Mad

City does what a lot of his albums don't, where it works as a whole, but it also works in the micro. It works as, like, you can listen to a Mad City or you can listen to a swimming pools or money trees and they'll make sense as songs. Where it's like to pimp a butterfly or damn, I think these are more heady concepts that he's chasing. There's more stories. There's more things to unpack. So, of course, these two songs are going to be from Good Kid, Mad City, because there are the songs that you can give to anyone and be like, hey, this works as a song outside of the project. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think it's that classic, and I hate to have this conversation, but it is true in this case. But like you mentioned earlier, sometimes it is, the first album is so important and it's so raw and there's so much on the line.

And you've kind of, especially in this case, like Kendrick saved this story for so long to tell that it's really hard to recap. all those components and your subsequent work after success. And I think Kendrick has done it as good as anyone, right? He's made two classic albums post Good Kid Mad City, maybe even another with Mr. Moral, time will tell. But, you know, there's something that you just can't quite be captured again in those debut albums that you see from these kind of artists where it's just so many, it's just this perfect mix of different things. and it's just like the there's a rawness to Good Kid Mad City

that he hasn't been able to capture probably the closest is actually Mr. Morrell there's a rawness to that record that I think has kind of the same kind of qualities that good kid does but yeah I don't know Mad City is just special it's such a special record

I'm just I mean this is where I'm like I'm just lucky I feel very lucky to be alive when Kendrick Lamar is making art. It's just, I think he, beyond music even, I think I'm so, I feel so fortunate to be witnessing this kind of catalog in real time and experiencing these records that I think are on, you know, par with some of the best in music history.

I just feel very fortunate to be alive right now and witness it. I mean, the other thing I was thinking when I was out for a walk this morning was the reason that Good Kid Mad City has, such a emotional heft to me that maybe some of the other albums, it's not that they don't, it's just a different emotion, is that it's the last Kendrick Lamar project where he's rapping pre-fame. To Pimple Butterfly isn't all about fame, but it is about Kendrick. Oh, yeah, for sure.

Dealing with the fallout of becoming this massive artist. Damn a little bit less, but Mr. Morale definitely is about, like, if to Pimper Butterfly is like what it's like being a famous person for the first time, Mr. Morale is just like, I'm a famous person, and also now I have to kill the legend of Kendrick Lamar. Good Kid Mad City works so much to me because I think Kendrick is the best when he's rapping about himself. And I also think Kendrick is the best when he's telling stories that he has a long enough runway to have a lot of thoughts about and conflicting feelings about. And that's why I think we both have Good Kid Mad City picks is because we're never going to get that again. And that's fine.

Every artist goes through that. But you never can have that moment again where you're like, this artist has been waiting a lifetime to tell this story. And they can only tell it once. And a lot of times those artists fuck up. Artists, like, that weight of expectation

messes them up. And Good Kid Mad City is one of those rare moments, those rare debut albums. Hence why the debut album and rap is so important where it's like, oh, he did it. He did it when like Drake didn't do it. Whiz didn't do it. Like, there's a lot of people

who were in his class, big Sean, all these people who weren't able to do it, and Kendrick is the rare one who, like, stuck the landing. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, even, like, you can... In my mind, I compare this a lot to, like, 50 Cent, you know, his first album, get Richard tried trying.

Yeah. In the way that it feels like a good kidish type of record, and then 50 Cent is actually an example of what usually happens, which is, like, cannot even get close to reliving that kind of success after money, after fame. And it just kind of, like, he ran out of things to say in my mind. No disrespect to 50 Centi's a legend. But, I mean, is that fair?

No, that's totally fair. And that's actually what I think, even if you look at someone like a Nas, where Nas made great albums after El Maddo. But if you read those, like, early reviews or kind of like the revolt against some of his albums when, you know, he goes with the mafioso stick and all of that, it's always when you have a perfect album, when you have a perfect debut. you, it's always a shadow over your career where you're like, oh, it's not Elmatic, it's not good kid, it's not this, it's not reasonable doubt. And I think Kendrick wildly,

because to Pimp a Butterfly was so radically different, he kind of got to sidesteped that, where we don't really have those conversations of, it's not good kid, because to, like, to what we've been saying this entire season is like, oh, he circumvented it by just getting really, really weird. So we always expect Kendrick to reinvent himself on every project. exactly yeah he set he set the standard early like we talked about last episode i think swerving so early in his career with tippin by butterfly was very important i think set expectations widely that yeah i'm not going to keep doing the same thing and i think that was to his credit that was very smart to do early um but let's let's let's get to the let's let's not dodge around this royal rumble finale

i think it's time to get into it let's get who wants to go first you want to go first you want me to go first. I'm going to let you go first. I'm going to let you go first. Okay. In life, we cannot choose where we come from. In many ways, our origins define us. The mud, the murk, the primordial ooze that shapes us is inescapable. When we talk about Mad City, we're discussing the foundation, the soul of a child that contains multitudes. We're thrown into a world of pyrues and crypts, shootouts and robberies, within the words of a 20-something

contained the memories of a people, displaced, dispossessed, but with a fighting spirit that can never be quenched. There's a visceral, almost unexplainable allure to Mad City. And you want to know how I know that for a fact call. Hmm.

Let me ask you a few questions. How many times have you seen Kendrick Lamar live? Four? Interesting. How's his live show? Tremendous. And at those four shows, can you name me which song, without a doubt,

had the biggest response night after night? Yeah, it's Mad City. It's Mad City. And you know what? Actually, so you know what? I talked to Cam, shout out Cam. co-writer, a long-time collaborator and dissect.

He just saw Kendrakemar live and I'm about to see him tonight the day that we're recording this, but I had to ask him, I was like, because I was thinking about this part of the conversation, I was like, out of all the songs, which one went live the most?

And he said, Mad City, still. Still. Here's the thing. When was good kid Mad City released, 2012? Yeah. Or 13, 12 or 13? So almost a decade? Almost a decade later.

Yeah. It's definitely 2012. It's about to be 10 years, yeah. Mad City, a decade later, still echoes through the halls of rap history. Mad City verse, thing about me, I'm dying up first. I have to be real. This is an elemental argument. Do you like climaxes?

Do you like the point in the story? Oh, yeah, right. Where everything changes. where our hero descends into the madness, into the chaos, and we are so gripped with fear, we don't know if they can claw their way back. Now, I like me some thing about me I'm dying a thirst. Don't get me wrong.

That's a great song. It's a great song. I'm glad it's in contention, but it is obviously number two. And you want to know why it's number two? All right, let's hear it. Because my steam cog league has already said, can it really be in contention? A 12-minute song where, really, if we're talking elementally, does it work in the second half?

Who's to say? Who is to say? Do you want to listen to a song? Have a skit all up in your song? All up in your best Kendrick Lamar song? I sure don't. Here's the thing. When we talk about Mad City, the reason that Cole and I agreed.

at the beginning of this entire Kendrick Lamar last song standing experiment about Mad City in the first episode is that its intensity has never waned it shows you everything that Kendrick is as an artist he is transporting an entire nation entire globe into a world that so often is forgotten what does it mean to be a good kid what does it mean to be a black kid with so much hope and so much promise living in a city that because of racism, because of the way America is set up, tries to rob you at every single avenue. Mad City is not only the greatest Kendrick Lamar song of all time,

it should be the last longstanding. I rest my case. Beautiful. Beautiful. I love this. Have you thought about going to law school? Hell no, I'd be terrible in the court. Like the fucking judge would throw me out.

I'd be yelling objection and shit. I'd be doing the juggie in the middle of the courtroom. I'd be a terrible word. Well, you put it on a great acting job today. That was beautiful. And I, you know what? Okay, here's what maybe we should try to do. I'm going to make my case for Sing About Me.

And then we're going to, how about this? We flip. You try to make a case for Sing About Me and I'll try to make a case for Mad City. Oh, I like that. I like that. All right. Let's do it. And then we'll see. We'll see because that was beautiful. But I know you like Matt. I know you like sing about me too. And I love both of these songs. So I think we should try to put one down. We should just see which one rises to the top. I fuck with that, Cole. I fuck with that. All right. So sing about me. It is the other side of the coin to Mad City, though. You know, these songs work beautifully as a pair. I'm glad we're talking about them as a pair. I'm glad that we ended up on these two songs. I think it's the right conversation. What sing about me has that I don't think Mad City has is that when I listen to Mad City, it is easy for my brain.

If you want, you can shut your brain off and just like vibe to that record. Sing about me is impossible to do that. You feel the weight of this song every single time you listen to it. For me, I tear up every single time I teared up this morning when I listened to it. It is impossible to escape the emotional resonance. of this song. It is impossible for you not to be gripped by this song emotionally, which is very, very hard to do in music. Think about me is brilliant writing. So we have classic Kendrick rapping from different perspectives, something that he's been interested in doing his whole

career is like, how do I represent my people in Compton? How do I get these stories out to the world? How do I express? You know, we hear statistics all the time. We hear, here is what racism here's what systemic racism, here's what these things do, and we'll list some facts, right? We'll list, you know, statistics that, you know, show how black people are disadvantaged by all these systemic things, right? But we very rarely, and how can we hear the stories of the real life experiences of the people that are affected? This is why art is so important, it's why music's so important, why Kendrick Lamar himself is so important, because he consciously has been thinking about how to express these stories in art for his entire career.

And he does that on Sing About Me. Everyone knows, first verse is wrapped from the perspective of Dave's brother who gets killed on the previous song on the album. And we hear the pain that a death caused rather than a statistic of like, here's another death by gang violence, right? We'll hear that headline and even the implication of that hemline has racial connotations, right? But when you hear, I challenge any human being with a heart.

on earth to listen to that story in verse one and not feel empathy for that brother that is struggling with the emotions of having his you know his brother killed and also that feeling of like it also like gives you a kind of understanding of why the retaliation is a thing too right how these things continue on is because the human quality is of one of revenge you know that comes easier to us than forgiveness, especially in the moment. And so we hear that too, and it kind of gives you perspective on why these cycles continue. And Kendrick very actively thinking about how do we stop the cycle? How do we end this? Verse two does a very similar thing with Keisha's sister. And then verse three, we have Kendrick at kind of his most vulnerable and just like laying out

the entire album, laying out the weight that he feels of trying to tell these stories. hoping that he's doing it right, acknowledging that he's stumbled with the Keisha's song on Section 80, but then kind of trying to justify where he was coming from and kind of, you know, saying, I'm just trying to help, I'm trying. And so it's just a very, very heartfelt, very beautiful song. One that I think is very important just in that, yeah, it's just very rare that we get to hear this directive like feedback of stories from places that people like me just don't have access to hearing and that's what's so beautiful about Kendrick Lamar's art is that he gives us a piece of that

and in a way that we can all feel on a very human level that that completely disintegrates all those racial divides in my mind and just connects as a human to human and in a way that I think Kendrick Lamar only can do I think if we're thinking about what elevates Sing About Me over Mad City, it's that there is a number of artists that could maybe get close to doing a song like Mad City. I don't think that there's many or even one that could do it to the level, but

I think Sing About Me showcases what makes Kendrick Amar a little bit more special emotionally than a Mad City does. So I think that would have to be my case for Sing About Me. Very eloquent. if I could add in terms of why I think sing about me should be in the running is I think about those last bars in the first verse when Kendrick wraps and I love you because you love my brother

like you did just promise me you'll tell this story when you make it big and if I die before your album drop I hope then we get the gunshots and I think something that is so special about sing about me I'm dying at thirst is that you have to think about the interiority of Kendrick emotions that he's had to live with and the burden of of another human saying like hey like make sure the world doesn't forget about us doesn't forget about our story doesn't forget about where we came from um that's such a big burden um it's not just a big burden to have this human as an artist who's on the cusp of making it big on their debut album you can forget that. I think there's a lot of temptation that a lot of rappers fall into where it's just

like I might only get one chance at this. I need the hits. I need this. All of these people, whether it's from the label, whether it's your friends, whether it's other rappers, are in your ear. And for Kendrick to have that laser focus of there's going to be a song where I finally document it all, where I document all of these people who meant the world to me, all of these and I paint them with a level of care and a level of humanity that so rarely you get to see black people painted in, I think is one of the most beautiful things that you can do as an artist. And I know that like we're debating and all of this is fun, but like hearing you speak about it, we're really listening to it today. I was really just taken aback where I'm just like,

this is someone who's still so young, but it's still so focused on being like, no, stop. We are going to really celebrate these souls. And I think that is such a, yeah, I don't know if I'm doing a justice, but that is such a beautiful thing to commit to heart. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I do think there's even like a universal layer to the song, because if you just listen to the hook, right, like, it just, it's everything about the human experience, you know? It's, it's reckoning with mortality. It's wondering what your legacy is going to be. Is the life that I'm leading now going to make an impact. Who's going to sing about me

when I'm gone? Are there going to be people that sing about me when I'm gone? Those are very real human, emotions, thoughts, fears that we all have. And then, yeah, to add the layer, of course, of what you just laid out in terms of, like, Kendrick

putting that responsibility on himself to sing about these, like quite literally sing about these people and make sure that their legacy and their souls that are honored and also represent something much larger

that is ongoing and incredibly important to continue to think about and continue to work to make better, of course. So I think yeah, I think that's my case for singing about me. I'm trying not to cry right now.

So I didn't make the case for Mad City. Can I make the case for Mad City? Because I actually feel really strongly about Mad City. I feel really strong about sing about me. I feel really strongly about Mad City as well.

You covered all the thematic stuff, I think, very, very well. I think from a writing perspective, this song is fucking brilliant

and perfect in every single way from the production to the lyricism to the flow. I think it showcases if we're talking about a holistic

showcase of Kendrick Lamar's talents, I think Matt City represents every single thing very, very, very, very well. So we talk about lyricism. That's incredibly clear on this song. He has two, three verses. And I think that last verse has to be in the running for one of his best. You've referenced it all the time. If I killed an N-word at 16, would you perceive me to be, you know, that whole verse is so brilliant. And then it culminates into the revelation of the acronym of the Mad City title.

Live inside the belly of the rough Compton, USA, maybe an angel on angel dust. From a writing. Scratching and then the Mad City comes in. And then the riff, the West Coast synthesizer, classic West Coast synthesizer, Dr. Dre-style riff to represent this song that is like a sonic portrait of Compton is so brilliant. So just from a writing perspective, that detail is so cool. But then from a production aspect, like, we haven't really talked about production at all. I think production-wise, there's a reason why I sing about me is subdued and it works beautifully.

But production on Matt City is so genius. I laid out, like, the samples and stuff last time, how it builds off of the BB King sample. What I didn't say in that episode, though, actually, is that the BB King sample that's sampled in that second half chains and things. it functions in a very similar way that fear does with Poverty's Paradise where the lyrics of the song being sampled contribute to the thematic kind of message of the

of the new song that's using that sample so the BB King lyrics is talking about essentially the black struggle in the 60s he says talk about hard luck and trouble seems to be my middle name all the odds are against me yes only I play a losing game these chains that bind me can't

lose these chains and things. And then it talks about, it says, would pack up and leave today, but I ain't got nowhere to go, ain't got no money to buy a ticket, and I don't feel like walking anymore, these chains that bind me, I can't lose these chains and things. So Bebe King is talking about being stuck in the same way that Kendrick is talking about being stuck in a place like Compton and not being able to escape. So we have that detail that I didn't bring up last time that I thought I should bring up here. So just like, from a, for production standpoint, the beat switch is perfect on this song. It works incredibly well. To use MCA as a character perfectly, uh, to kind of represent the kind of rappers that Kendrick was listening to at this time in the, of life when he, that he's

describing on the song growing up in Compton. It's so brilliant, like such a conceptual, like, stroke of genius there. It just has every single thing. It has the life. It has the life. It has the live aspect that we talked about, has the production, has the lyricism, has the trademark Kendrick doing the voice switch thing where he's on that last verse, where he's high-pitched voice, low-pitch voice, representing the good kid in the Mad City, push-pulling him to either side, which is reflected in it panning from your left-to-right speaker, like literally pushing you and pulling you in the same way that Kendrick is being pushed by his good side and his bad side. So you have like, it's just every single aspect that we talk about in this conversation

of production, lyricism, theatrics, concept, like every, live aspect. Like, every,

am I making it clear? Like, every single, there's just not. I mean, even think about, like, if you've never heard

Kendrick Lamar, even if you think about how he ends his verses, he, like, literally, within a bar, tells you,

like, no, this is who Kendrick is when he says, Kendrick, aka Compton's human sacrifice, or made me

an angel on angel dust. He's literally every step of the way for an audience being like, no, these, not only is this the theme of the album, but like Compton's human sacrifice is like, if you needed three words to describe who Kendrick is in terms of like his career, that's not only how he sees himself, but if we look at his other projects being like, oh, this is someone who had to trade a part of himself to tell these stories. It's like,

it's why he's making a thing about me. I'm dying up thirst. It's why he makes a Mr. Moral is the fact that like he's seen so much of Compton and it's like hey part of being a celebrity is like as much as he has the money and that's great. I do think that there is a part of Kendrick who's like forever has to have this burden of being this hope for a people, someone who when massive things happen to the black community, people are waiting to hear from him in a way that we wait for some of our greatest black artists. So I think that this song kind of does a great job being like, okay, if I have one song, if I have one moment to describe to an audience what I'm about, this is it. And that's why I think it's made it to this far, because it's like, on a plate,

it's like here. This is, this is everything I've been waiting 20 odd years to say. Yeah. And this is like the final thing. When I realized kind of this and articulated it to myself, like, I was like, okay, maybe this is the one. Because when I think what this does, so the song does so well is that like I mentioned before if you shut your brain off it gives you the visceral just pump up quality like it hits live all that stuff like

if you just turn your brain off but if you just listen if you just sit down and read the lyrics like they give to me they give you the same kind of feeling or a similar feeling that emotional quality that we're looking for in Kendrick Lamar they're in the lyrics it might not be like

wrapped and articulated on record in a way that a singing about me is and you're going to get that emotional gut punch just unavoidable. But that same level of storytelling, of rawness, of just bare emotions are in this song. It's just like you have to kind of like really look at it. Because I mean, he's talking about seeing someone killed when he was what, seven or nine years old at the burger stand. Like just think, like just think about that. Like that is so heavy, right? He's talking about, you know, running with his, he's like calling people by their name so much that he has to bleep out someone's

real name, right? And he's talking about a wall of bullets coming, AK's, AR's, A. Y'all Duck. It's like, that's cool to sing along to, but like, think about being a teenager and like, literally guns around you, you know, like, I mean, that is so scary. Like, that is, that to me just evokes so well the kind of environment that he was brought up in. And you have, like, again, like, these are cool lyrics to kind of recite live, but think about them. Like, ain't no peace treaty, just piece in, uh, bags up to pre-approved bodies on top of bodies, ivies on top of ivies. Obviously, the corner between the sheets like the eyes. It's like, just painting this picture of just bodies stacking up because there's so many deaths around him. It's like, he's not like glorifying this. It's like, these are vivid descriptions of

things that he saw as a child growing up. So, I don't know. Like, when I kind of really, when you just look at the lyrics and how vivid they are in the same way, I think the sing about me is, I was like, man, he's really doing it all in this song. And also to your point, you said this earlier in the season, where I think what makes Mad City work potentially as the last song standing is that it doesn't just contain Kendrick Lamar. It contains a history between the samples and the interrelation of, of Keebe King, of Ice Cube, of Warren Chee. It is like, it is covering just not only the history of black music, the history of West Coast music.

And it's Kendrick saying like, no, I'm of a lineage. It's not Kendrick being like, I'm above it. It's like, no, I'm continuing. It's a culmination of so many years of struggle, of strife, and of music and creativity. And I think that to me is almost the spirit of Kendrick Lamar, because you see it in all of his work. He's pulling from so much black art and so much black history. So I think it's weird to say, I do think that Mad City both sonically probably has a little bit more going on in terms of the layers of like MC8. Like it's literally just like decade upon decade of decade of history. He's painting

a picture with like only colors from things that existed. Like right? Like he's like, it's such a brilliant use of like sonics, like a thematic. use of sonics, which is so hard to do, but he's like literally using every element of the song all contributes to the portrait that he's painting. There's not a wasted stroke. Like, everything is contributing to the message and what this song is representing, which is his history of Compton. So it quite literally uses the history of Compton to paint the picture. It's like, it's so brilliant. So if, before we get to our pick, because we're going to have to pick the last onstanding. Are there any weaknesses to Mad City? Are there any things that we can point out

where we would want to change? This is what holds it back. To me, the only weakness is that it's a very, like, I understand that it's basic in terms of like people love it. It's a crowd favorite. But sometimes just like you don't overthink it. Like it's, it's become basic because like it works. There are some pieces of art that just bowl you over and no matter who you are, where you are, you are going to understand it. And I think as much as it'd be like, oh, but everybody loves Mad City. I'm like, yeah, there's a reason. Like, an artist was able to, like, distill decades upon decades of history and who they are as a human into like a three, four-minute song. I think so. I guess one per, like, you could make the argument that it doesn't have

a really strong hook. The only, I mean, the hook is like, almost like, it's taken from a skit. Like, it's like, man down, where are you from? Who you, who, you know, like, that's, That's taken from a skit in the, I guess, I think it's the previous song. So it's not like the strongest sing-along hook, although live people sing it. I mean, to be fair, but the yak, yak, y'ak, is kind of the, like, as much as you want to be like, is that the, I'm like, yeah, the yac-yak-yak-y-y-hs plays the role of the hypnotic phrase that keeps you coming back. It's the thing that you're waiting for because, like, I don't know about you when I've seen Kendrick-Omar live. That's the dopamine hit. The y'-y-y-y-y-y-y-k is what you're waiting for.

So to me, I actually would argue it's one of Kendrick's most effective hooks because it uses so little but says so much. Yeah, and I guess the only other part that I'm just trying to pick holes at it is like, is MC8 on his best song? Is that, does that denigrate it at all? Hell no. I think it's, it's, it's versus fucking killer. It's killer. I love that. Come on, bro.

It makes the song. Yeah, okay. I think so too. I'm just trying to think, playing devil's advocate here, because I think I'm pretty sure, Kendrick had to help write it. I'm pretty positive of that, if not just totally wrote it for him. But yeah, just I, yeah, the way that he used him as a character, I think is also very brilliant, like very Quentin Tarantino-esque, almost Kanye-esque in the way that he uses his features as characters sometimes.

So I think it, yeah, I think it is more of a positive than it could be a negative. but because it like I bet you like what 80% of the people that listen to this song don't know who MC8 is but probably love that verse and don't skip it exactly right it's like so to resurrect MC8 and give him a relevant verse that people like love in 2013 or 2012 is actually pretty boat boat's first case very well I think I reading reading articles MC8 was just like yo it was dope that like Kendrick was just like yo like come in like let's do this because even he was like MC8 a legend but in 2012 he wasn't not yeah he wasn't in the firmament of like what we're talking about right but here's the thing let's stop going around the bush it's time people it's time we've argued we've whittled it down it's mad city first thing about me i'm dying of thirst cole do you want me to go first or do you want to go first i have I know what I want to pick for the last song standing. You go first.

I'm going to go with my heart. This is the song that I wanted to pick going into this. And I was almost bowled over. Cole almost got me. He did. Like I was getting emotional. I was getting tearyed out. I'm like, oh, man, this song means so much.

How can it not be this? But if we're talking about Kendrick's greatest song of all time, if we're talking about the criteria that we set forth in the first episode, I have to go Mad City. My heart is saying Mad City. I'm going to admit it to. My heart's saying the same thing, man. It's my head, it's weird, because my head kind of wants to pick things about me.

My, dude, I want to. My heart is saying Mad City. You would think it's the reverse because sing about me such an emotional song. But I think in this discussion, in this kind of discussion, Matt City just hits too many things so, so, so well that in a holistic representation of who Kendrick Lamar is as an artist, as a songwriter, as a conceptual artist, as a popular artist, as a live performer in this generation,

it just hits too many things so well where sing about me. I love sing about me. It's just in this conversation, I think, just slightly a little bit to one note. We're talking about a percentage point. We're not talking about, like, they're on the same level. It's just the one percentage point. And actually, I want to shout out the listeners.

The fact that you use your fan vote, you got something about me, I'm dying of thirst. It made it to second. I, like, that's all we could say. Like, it made it so close. Guys, I really, like, to Cole's point, my head wanted to pick it, but it's mad city. Last song's standing. The greatest Kendrick Lamar song. of all time.

Guys, it's Mad City. Oh, how are you feeling, Cole? We did it. I feel good, man. I love the journey getting here. It was a mo- man, I was getting teary.

I was like, dog, it's such a good fucking song. And there's, I mean, it's too bad we can't pick both. We can't pick both. But they are such like, it's the same coin. It's just two sides of the same coin.

Mad City just has a little bit more in this kind of conversation. You know what, Matt? You know what's thinking about me? I'm dying of Thursdays, technically. What? The second to last song standing.

But there's not a show for that. We did it. I'm proud of, that's a hard task, man. I love this. It was a really, really cool exercise. Shout out to anyone that did it with us. I know a lot of people did the homework with us. We're going to get to that in a little bit,

but I'm really excited to try to do this again with another artist because it just it forces you to think about music in a certain way, about an artist cataloging a certain way, what a song should contain. It's just a really fun way to think about music and a critical way that I think is very important. So I'm glad that we did this together. Here's the thing.

Before we wrap up, I have to have a public service announcement. I don't think the listeners probably do because they know how good Cole is at his job, but I don't think a lot of listeners understand, you know, the level of dedication, the level of love, just the nights that everybody puts into this, whether it's our amazing producer, Kevin,

all of the amazing, like, production he's doing, the notes he's going through Justin Sales, dealing with all of the background things that nobody ever talks about that needs to happen, whether it's things going to legal, or it's talking to managers, or making sure this music can be cleared and that music can be cleared. So, like, Justin Sales killed it,

and last was certainly not, least. I think when we both came up with this idea, Cole, it was something new. It was like, is a dissect audience going to want this? Is my audience going to want this? It's different. It's a chat podcast. And I think that the testament to this show is that like our friendship over these last like seven, eight weeks really did blossom. I learned how amazing of a talent you are. You know what I mean? Like amazing someone who can like from nothing. build a podcast and make it sound excellent and has all of these things where like i was reading email slacks me like oh i'd never thought of this cole is such a talented individual so i want to say

thank you for letting me be a part of this and just like thank the entire team thank devon rinaldo for the amazing theme music um enough can't be said about the people who help put this together yeah 100% definitely echo that statement and for you i know i'd like built in home home field advantage because we published this on dissect but what i love about you, Charles, is that you are yourself, you're honest, and I love that I'm attracted to people that are authentic for that very reason. You didn't try to pretend, you know, you didn't play, you know, you were just yourself the whole time. I really, really appreciate that. I really appreciate your perspective on so many things, so many, so many different things on this, the course

of these seven episodes. I've really, really enjoyed this. I hope we get to do it again. but it was beautiful. I can't believe we did it. We did it. We survived. Our friendship is stronger than never. All right? We only had to bring in Justin once to settle the score. But y'all, yell at us.

Yell of us. Go to Dissect Podcast. Go to Charles X. Holmes on all the socials. Yell at us. Are we, were we wrong? How dare we pick Mad City? Y'all tell us. Thank you so much to our producer, Justin Sales,

our audio production wizard, Kevin Pooler, and the one and only who provides the theme music, Devin Ronaldo, and maybe we'll see y'all very soon. Oh, it's our last homework session, sadly. I gave you Spirited Away because you're not a, you've never really dug into anime. So I'm a little, I guess I went in like thinking that anime was like something different. So I want to, I want to throw back to you. Like what about Spirit Away made it the first one you want to?

me to watch and like why does it represent like anime or does it represent anime in a way that you think is holistic or is it just giving me one taste of it? Yeah. So I saw some people be like, why would you give them that? It's basic. But the reason I gave it to you is because you said that you only had like Dragon Ball Zia's reference. And I think as Americans, we tend to think of anime in this distinct way where it's like about musly guys fighting and yelling at each other. and that's like one genre. That's anime and manga, because they're very interconnected,

manga are the comics, and anime art is the animation. I think we paint it with this broad brush. The reason I gave you Miyazaki is that it's essentially like giving you a Disney film. It's like giving you something where it's like, in Japan, this is their version of a Disney. This is something that kids,

it's a rite of passage. And I think because it's not like big, musly men yelling at each other or punching each other. It's a very, like, sweet tale of this, of this young girl trying to save her parents and get home from the spirit world. I think anybody can appreciate it.

It's also, like, sensory overload. It's something that, like, there's so much happening where you're like, even if you're not used to anime, I think anybody can respect the fact that, like, oh, there is so much work that go, so much love, so much thought. This is, like, a film. This is art. And I want to give you something where it's just, like,

all anime is just not people with yellow hair leading each other. It's like you can have something that's like emotional and visceral. And Miyazaki means so much to me. He's one of my favorite filmmakers. So that's why I gave it to you. Well, I'll have to say the music is really, really good.

The main theme of that song, or that the movie is beautiful. So gorgeous. What did you think? Were you just like, this is too much? No, I mean,

it's cool. I mean, I'm glad I did the exercise. And I'm glad that I, after you said, that and why you gave me the specific film makes a lot of sense. Because it was just like, yeah, it is, I could see the Disney correlation, but it is a little bit more, it was almost like Alice in Wonderland style, where it's like a little more

psychedelic. I don't know if that's the right word, but there's so many creatures and characters, a lot of it, more imagination than I would think that goes into a typical Disney type of movie. So I appreciated that. I appreciate all the characters. I think generally speaking it changed the way that I thought about what anime was so that if that was your kind of that was my goal whether you're just like it doesn't have to be your favorite movie of all time

but it is that thing where it's just like I think yeah Americans have this view of it it's like same thing with like comic books like most people are just like oh Batman beating people up and then you could give them another you can give them another comic be like no comics are also this like it's a wide genre. So I just wanted to expand your palette.

So if anybody's like, hey, watch this anime movie. You'd be like, oh, no, this will be an actual film. It's just not the typical, like big eyes, big boobies. Yeah, yeah. That's kind of what, immediately that's kind of what my perception was of it, generally speaking of anime was that I know there's a little bit, because there are certain people that I respect that are really into it, I was like, oh, there's definitely more here that I need to like explore.

But I did have that kind of classic American perception of it, generally speaking. So, okay, so if I'm going to continue in the, you know, the break here between seasons, if I was going to continue on, what, give me like a, are you going to try the safe? Are you with a trippy shit? I'm into like, how do I describe it? I guess like, I'm kind of into like darker stuff. I would, like, my favorite movement all time is like eyes wide shut, if that tells you anything. You know what I'm like into that kind of stuff? I'm going to give you a movie called paprika. Paprika, okay. It's a movie that deals a lot with dreams, does get dark, and Christopher Nolan took a lot of the inspiration for inception from Paprika, or at least that's the rumors. So I would, like, Paprika, you're still going to get a lot of that psychedelic feel.

You're still going to get a lot of characters, but it's a more grown-up movie. It's not like something you can watch with your kids, and it does deal with, like, our perception of reality, which, like, I know, like you and I, like Charlie Kaufman, it's a very, like what is real. What are our dreams? And I think you'll fuck with it. It's a little darker. Okay, pepperica.

All right. I'm into it. And you gave me a Bob Dylan album. I gave you the, I gave you the non-normy Bob Dylan, the more cult favorite classic album, Bob Dylan. What do you think?

I fucked with it. Blood on the track, sorry. Blood on the tracks. I fuck with that. That white boy crazy. Like, I just like listening to a future album. I'm like, damn.

Yeah. mess with it. I'm not going to hold you up. It wasn't what I was expecting. I've listened to a lot of the bigger Dylan records. This one to me was just, uh, yeah, I was listening to some of the lyrics just about like, yeah, it was, I only listened to it once, but I was very, very like, oh, okay, Bob, I didn't know you had this in you. It's like, yeah, it's a breakup record. So there's just some like scathing songs on there. Like that song, idiot wind is just, all right, that's what I was going to look up. Idiot Wing was my favorite song. How did you know? Is that a basic pick? this is my favorite song too

it's like oh some of the lyrics are just so scathing but in the best kind of you get it because it's like post breakup way um idiot wind like did it for me I was like this is the jam like I could understand when I was like this is like oh no this way I can't uh call gave me this album

um I don't know if I will like listen to like much Bob Dylan uh in my free time but uh besides like the big records I know and the big albums like this was a treat this is like exactly what the homework needed. Yeah. Okay, good.

Because, yeah, it's like, most people think of Bob Dylan probably two ways. One is, like, his early protest songs, like, very folk, traditional folk, blown in the wind, that kind of thing. And then he goes electric, and that's when he gets, like, super into drugs, and he's just

riding stream of consciousness, like, very abstract Jack Kerouac and, you know, Pukowski influence type of thing. And so then, and then there's a very pivotal part his career where he got this motorcycle accident and everything post the motorcycle accident where he was trying to basically

not be famous anymore. There's just been like up and down for a lot of Bob Dylan listeners. I feel like blood on the track is like a very it's a good representation of like what Bob Dylan ended up after all the whirlwind of the 60s of him being the protest

guy, him kind of turning his back on that, going electric, going abstract. And then kind of settling down and then making a nice hybrid of both and just becoming one of the greatest songwriters of all time. And I think Blood on Tracks really showcases like a very holistic portrait of what Bob Dylan is and who he is and talents of writing, all that stuff. So I'm glad that you liked it. I think anyone with good music taste would probably like that record. No, I mess with it. It's going to be in the rotation for the foreseeable future. But speaking of

homework, Cole, have you listened to Connie's discography lately? lately? Maybe not lately. I've been listening to Kendrick Lamar a lot. But have a chill. Are you a Kanye West fan, generally speaking? Hell yeah. Hell yeah. That gives me an idea. Are you, you fuck with, you fuck with Kanye, right? I've seen a few dissect, uh, oh yeah, about Kanye. Arguably the greatest artists of our time. Wait, should the next season of last long standing be?