Dissect - 'FLOWER BOY' by Tyler The Creator | Last Song Standing (E3)

Episode Date: July 14, 2026

Cole and Charles continue their journey to crown Tyler The Creator's best song ever by revisiting 2017's Flower Boy - a pivotal album that changed the trajectory of Tyler's career. Follow @dissectpodcast on⁠ Instagram⁠,⁠ TikTok⁠, and⁠ Twitter⁠. Hosts: Cole Cuchna & Charles Holmes Producer: Justin Sayles  Editor: Kevin Pooler Engineer: Sarah Reddy Theme Music: Birocratic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome everyone to Last Song Standing. I'm Cole Kushna. And I'm Charles Holmes. And in this fifth season of Last Song Standing, Cole and I are debating our way through Tyler, the creator's entire catalog, in order to crown the greatest Tyler the creator song of all time. Last episode, we debated Wolf and Cherry Bomb. And today we tackle Tyler's most pivotal album, 2017's Flower Boy. the back. Can we go back to November? Check all the shit, all the shit for the Goddian. That is what I was hot in.

That was where love I was in. Yo, how are you feeling? It's been a couple weeks. How's your life going? By the time this is out, I'm assuming what you're working on right now will be out. How are you feeling? You got some exciting stuff on the horizon.

Oh yeah. I'm about to film a very exciting interview tomorrow at the time of this recording. So people will know what that is very soon, if not already. and I've been deep in my anime bag you're gonna be very proud of me you have set me off on the most beautiful heartwarming journey studio I am a

becoming a studio jibli like whatever do weeb weeb weeb the web is the I'm getting there I know like probably studio jibbley's like the normie basic shit but like Panyo Ponyo might be in my like top 10 favorite movies

of all time Your daughters were fucking with Panyo. Yeah. So Studio Ghibli is having like a, this is turning an anime podcast. They're having like a theatrical re-release, like festival. Yeah. And so they just happened to be showing Panyo in Sacramento, took my kids. My seven-year-old daughter, like, cried during Pongia.

Her first movie she cried to was Panyo. What was the scene that got? Well, when the girl loses her mom. Dude. Talk about seeing your daughter. cry is a whole different. But then Bono, everybody's good by the end. Yeah.

It's such a beautiful movie. Oh my God. So we'll talk about it in the cultural exchange, but that's been in my life, Tyler the creator and studio Chipley, basically. Honestly, we'll talk about it, the cultural exchange. I'm going down to spiritual path. And it's so funny, everybody in my life is like, yo, Charles, what are you reading there?

I'm just like, because somebody's like, yeah, you know, I'm going through like a journey, a spiritual journey. they're like, oh, you're going back to church. I'm like, no, no organized religion. This is what I would call unorganized religion, searching, studying, you know, you're helping me create the syllabus. Yeah. Did you, I just read this.

We could cut, maybe cut this. Did you, did you know Rick Rubin has a vibe coding version of the Dow Dengh. Rick Rubin's, maybe that's like top of her. You know, it was like, I was about to like get full charm. And I was like, Rick Ruben's a legend. I have nothing to say. Go reboots Riley on this.

All right. So let's jump into our list so far because we have, like, we made some, some good headway in the first two episodes. We covered four albums. It was a lot to cover, but I feel good where we're at. Yes. All right. So I have French, Yonkers, Bimmer, Buffalo. And based off how this episode might go, I'm forecasting, I'm starting to realize I might be a basic bitch of Tyler, the creator, phantom.

where it's like the songs that like are the songs that everyone else that's kind of your role in this show. Yeah. Hey, I'm for the people. You know what I'm saying? And if I'm for the deep cut, you know, the real, give me the hits, bro. Yeah.

Okay. So I got bastard title track. She answer and cherry bomb title track. The cherry bomb title track might be a controversial pick. I love, I was listening to it today. I love the title track. I wish I would have picked. It's so good, but we're gonna get, I think I'm gonna get a lot of shit for not.

Caga, find your wings. Like, there's some, some beloved songs on there. Cherry Bomb is the one. I, it's also funny. I'm so excited that people are listening, but seeing the comments, I am very, it's very funny how they're just different generations of kind of the creator fans. Yeah. Where they're like, you have to pick this song and I'm like, oh, really?

Like, it's just because, like I said, I am either tired. Tyler's age or he's one year older than me, the songs that people are like, oh, it's this one. I'm like, damn, I feel old. I think I'm most excited about like our finale for this season because there is no clear winner. I think in the past seasons, there's always been kind of North Star songs that were very obvious.

Like, yeah, it's probably going to be one of these. But with Tyler, to your point about the, the fans chiming in now, like, it is so varied. There's not like one comment that has like 100 likes because everyone likes the same. song. It's like people have lists and like and their top lists look totally different from each other. So but this is like today's episode I'm so excited about because this for me is where Tyler's career like really, really takes off. And you said you hadn't listened to Flower Boy since really it came out, right? Yes. This is where this is when I like fell off the Tyler the creator odd future. And this is where I fucking came on. So like I was listening to.

all these albums. I listened to all of them, but it was, yeah, it was so fascinating. It was very, we will talk about it later. Going through this album was fascinating. All right. So let me remind the listeners of the rules and then we'll jump into flower boy proper. So if you forgot, each episode of Last Song Standing covers one album where we're both forced to pick the best song off of that album, aka the Last Song Standing. Then in our season finale, we'll have our Role where we bring the songs we've chosen from each album and they duke it out until we all can agree on what is the single greatest title of the creator song of all time. Yep.

Take a quick break and we'll get in the flower boy. Hell yeah. This episode is presented by Sierra Nevada. Life's about embracing the haze. What does that mean? Living in the moment. Seeing where the night takes you. Being up for the adventure.

And there's no better way to embrace it than with hazy little thing by Sierra Nevada. Hazy, citrusy, smooth. Juicy but not sweet. Hoppy but not bitter. America's best-selling hazy IPA for good reason. Hazy little thing. Enjoy responsibly. All right.

Let's go back to 2017. Let's go back to like 2015, actually, post-Cherrybaum Tyler. So I think what's really interesting about this album is Cherry Bomb, although is beloved by some, would you say it's probably like his most mixed reviewed album to that point? It wasn't like bashed, but it was like Tyler himself was not happy with the reception. Cherry Bomb was for the heads. And it's so funny. It speaks to my trajectory as a music writer because it's very funny.

I remember a lot of music critics liking Cherry Bomb, even if they didn't write about it. But there being a sense that it was a misstep. And to your point, going back and listening to Tyler talk about Cherry Bomb, it is very clear that even if creatively he doesn't about it as a failure. I think for where he wanted his career to go, he felt like you could just kind of see it, especially in that interview that he did with Jared, Gerard Carmichael, for Flower Boy, you can see him being like, damn, it felt like my back was against the wall. I had something to prove. And we can get into it later, but not only having something to prove to himself, but this definitely does feel like an album where he wants to be a producer.

He wants to be taken seriously in the industry. And he kind of almost has to break himself down and kind of rebuild Tyler. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, just to quote him directly from that interview, and we can play the clip here. He said, if this album isn't good, I'm fucked. I'm nothing right now. If this album wasn't good, I will be fucked. That's how I felt.

And some people would disagree, but I'm like, man, I'm not, I'm nothing right now. You felt that way coming off Cherry Ball? Yeah, yeah, because everyone hated it. Except for like real music level. He cares about drums. Like I opened a rap album with a rock song. Most niggas is like, ugh. And then Buffalo comes, you can barely hear what I'm saying.

And pilot come and it's this 80s music. So they're out because they won't rap. So that was like his mindset, riding Flower Boy. And I always viewed Cherry Bomb, or at least post-Cherry Bomb as like the bridge in Tyler's career where I could see it going one way and maybe declining in terms of maybe

becomes more of an underground kind of an artist or he does what he does post flower boy and just continues to ascend both in popularity and in his artistry it's a moment that reminds me a little bit of like post taylor swift v m moment conier where he felt his back against the wall writing twisted fantasy and really thought that if this next album doesn't win me over like my career is in the tank. And so whether that's true or not, you know, you can argue about that, but just seeing an artist in that mindset where it's like, this needs to be my best work or else, in both cases, produces, in my opinion, to that point in their career, their best album, or at least in the case of Tyler, I think Flyer Boy, for me, is his best album to that

point. And it's interesting hearing him talk about, like, in, you know, retrospect, him analyzing what didn't work about Cherrybaum and then specifically working on those aspects of his musicianship, song structure. I think Flower Boy is him learning how to do less, do more with less, where Cherry Bomb, it felt like he wants to be this top producer. And so he's throwing just everything at the wall. And there's just like, it's just like this big collage of sounds and genres and everything's kind of stacked on top of each other. Flower Boy is a step back in terms of like him learning how to prune things where he could do, he could still have these complex court progressions, these unique instrumentations,

but knowing when to pick and choose his spots, knowing when to showcase a vocal rather than stack a hundred things on top of it. It's like him really honing his production, I think even further than Cherrybaum. Is that you're reading of it as well? Now, so I guess take me back now, you said you didn't revisit the album all that much after its release. How did it hit your ears this time? So to me, this album, what unlocked this album for me is it was almost more fascinating hearing Tyler talk about the album because I had never actually watched the Dharod Carmichael interview.

Yeah. Like I had known that it came out. I read some of the headlines. And I think it's very, very interesting because if you take the three pillars of odd future, they all get to the same point very, very. very quickly where they're all good at a very specific thing. Take Tyler, Frank, and Earl. Someone like Frank comes out of the gate with nostalgia ultra and then Channel Orange and almost overnight, he becomes a pop figure. He's writing on Watch the Throne. And he's so good at making

pop music. So when blonde comes out or endless, it's this pop star almost throwing up his hands and kind of being like, okay, how can I become so artistic and take this big thing that I've become in terms of pop music and make it more idiotic-socratic and make it more individual to me? If you see somebody like Earl, the thing that people loved about Earl is he's like, he's his little brother figure of odd future, the prodigal son, but he is easily the most talented. But he's also very funny and it's all in your face. and instead of getting more on your face, Tyler the recedes. And what happens, I mean, Earl. Yeah. What happens with Tyler actually is that he has to, he has to battle the artifice that he had created.

Yeah. Because up until that point, he even said it, Cherry Bomb was, was an album that he was trying to make that was devoid of emotion. And I think it's a very interesting thing that for teenagers, sincerity is one of, just the scariest emotions. To be, like, sincere and put your emotions out there and to be, to bear yourself to the audience. And I think Tyler had to a point, but he would always end it on a joke. Yeah. You know, he would all, it was like almost like a cartoon figure.

Or he's playing a character. He's hiding behind characters. He's hiding behind voice manipulation and different monikers. And to me, two things are happening on Flower Boy. it is an artist saying, no, actually I want that thing that Frank already got. I want to make pop songs.

I want to open my world not only lyrically, but sonically, I want to work with different people. So much of the story of this album, I wanted this to go to Justin Bieber. I wanted this to go to Nikki Minaj. I wanted this to go to Schoolboy Q.

And him almost getting upset that those figures aren't taking his ideas. So he reclaims them and is like, almost like, I'm going to show you, what my world is. So it was interesting seeing this to me is the moment where Tyler goes from the teenage version

of himself being okay with being the shitster that is on the periphery of the industry to saying no, I do want Grammys. I do want to be played on the radio. I do want songs that can explode at Coachella. So that's interesting. His most

Tyler creator's most emotional album is also his most pop friendly. No, this makes me think of the story where he, I forgot, I think he was talking to like mentoring some kids or something. I forgot what interview it was. But essentially he was saying, like, I remember the moment that everything clicked or everything changed for me, where he relayed the story of someone coming up to him and saying, hey, I loved you on, what's the ridiculousness, I think, that MTV show. With Rob Deer Dag, yeah. Yeah.

And like, he didn't know Tyler did music or that music was secondary to that guy. And like, you're so, he said, you're so funny. And like, Tyler got super depressed after that interaction was like people just know me as a lot of people just know me as this goofball kid and not taking my artistry seriously. And that's what he said was the moment he decided to stop making jokes on Twitter. He said there's a photo. This is like a weird Bernstein Bears moment for me where he said there's a photo of him on a train where he's contemplating all of this. and like it perfectly captured his, this,

him switching his mindset. I swear I've seen this photo. If anyone has a copy of this photo or I might just be making it up, I swear it exists. I swear I've seen it. But if I find it, I'll put it up on the screen now.

He has a photo. I'm just in the middle of a train station just like, and then I went home. We had two more shows. Went home. Finish Flower Boy. Rest was history. It's like this was a very constant.

Like, Flower Boy is a very conscious effort in so many ways to level up production, write pop-friendly hooks without sacrificing. We'll talk about, at least in my nominations, like a very unique, stylistic, kind of idiosyncratic sound, retaining that, but also making a see-you again, making these pop songs that could be played on the radio, which we know Tyler, because of his eclectic background and musical tastes, like, wants to be that. Like he wants to write for Justin Bieber. And so Flower Boy is where it's where the quote unquote new Tyler begins for me.

I think this, I don't know, it's just such a critical juncture of his career for me where I just feel like it sets the stage for everything that comes after it. I don't think we talk about Tyler, the way we talk about him now, if Flower Boy doesn't make good on the promise that we saw. I mean, even as a teenager, you know, like this is this for me when every. everything comes together for him. It's so funny. It speaks so much to our taste where it was like, this is probably the moment in artist's careers that I bristle at the most. Like this to me is like Tyler the creator's Eminem show.

Or it's like, I'm cleaning out my closet. And I'm like, hell yeah, Tyler, do you? Come on. But I be throwing on that cherry bomb being like a lack of emotions is great. All right. Do you want to set us up for? Yes. Yeah.

All right. So Tyler's fifth studio album released on July 21st, 2017. The 14th song project features collaborations from Frank Ocean, Lo Wayne and Estelle, among others. It spawned four singles. Who That Boy? Boredom. I ain't got time and see you again. The project debuted at number two on the Billboard 200, selling 106,000 copies in its first week and is now certified double platinum. And the album also received a best rap album nomination at the 60th Grammy Awards. Now, this. This, like most Tyler, the creator albums, and I would say more so than a lot of the ones in the past, there's thematic element. There's some thematic elements. There's a story under, under this flower bed, under this garbage shed.

Yeah, yes. I promise that's all the time. I'll use that part. Yeah, I mean, every, I mean, Cherrybaum maybe be the exception year, but, you know,

we talked about a lot about Tyler's conceptual framework for pretty much every album. This to me is, again where everything comes together though where I felt we talked about the clunkiness maybe of the dr. tc stuff on the first three albums maybe not full being like a fully formed and cohesive story for me flower boy is very much that it's this essentially the premise of it or the kind of framework of it is Tyler on this symbolic road trip where he's driving this McLaren car we hear several times on the album and this

car kind of symbolizes this life that he built for himself, success, fame, material, wealth. But it also symbolizes an emptiness. There's several times on the album where he's talking about the car and saying, like, this is the only thing that I have. I don't have kids. I don't have a love life. Like, this is just kind of it to me and I'm feeling kind of empty about it. And so you have on one hand, this sports car kind of symbol. And on the other hand, you have this kind of nature motif. see with the title and garden shed and him comparing himself to a flower and all these things where it's like this contrast of like the sports car versus nature and nature kind of representing meaning and love and the journey of the album is like why am I lonely why am I feeling empty

well it's a lack of love and why do I have a lack of love life because there's parts of my sexuality that I haven't fully accepted that is limiting me to then expressing that to someone else. So I think the journey of the album is this symbolic road trip where Tyler hits potholes. He goes from bragging on one song to being completely vulnerable on the next and it's kind of like the seesaw thing until we get to garden shed, which we'll talk about more. But essentially it's him accepting himself so that he can then present himself authentically to the love, the kind of dream lover on this album, which is a male. And so I'll talk a little bit more about the kind of song by song framework of the album narrative and structure when I talk about

garden shed. But that's kind of the general gist of it. I think what's interesting too about the title is that Flower Boy is only half the title. The full title is Scumfuck Flower Boy. And to your point about him having this past and having this persona that people know him for, you know, I think this is perfectly expressed in the title. And it's also expressed in the dualism and the symbolism of the car and nature where you have scum fuck being this really aggressive vulgar uh you know explicit part of the title and then you have flower boy being this more nurturing gentler side and i think tyler is really trying to show the flower boy side of himself on this record and literally everything we just talked about in terms of like him coming to terms with himself so that then he can be more comfortable

expressing that in his music and you know to other people um Does that make sense? No, it makes perfect sense. I think going back to this album, what was fascinating to me was Tyler almost having to surrender himself to the program. Like, no artist is above the program if you're really trying to compete in popular music. And what I mean by that is to there, Tyler wants to be considered in the same bracket as heroes like Farrell and Eminem and Loe Wayne and Kanye.

And there is a reason why a song structure and pop song structure exists. There is just like it works. There's, and it's funny, he's at this point where he's so successful. But so many artists and rappers especially do talk about, okay, I'm playing an outside festival. I want a song that people can yell back to me. But similarly, going back, you're like, yeah, you're not above the process of when you're a teenager. it's not cool to want things. Deans are just like, oh, fuck

institutions, fuck everything. Anarchy is the point. And what I loved about kind of giving this album a little bit more of an year, I was like, oh yeah, for artists to really invest in you in the long

term, which he's gotten, you need to give them a part of yourself. Right. You are not above saying to your audience, I don't have to give you everything, but I do have to have a real conversation. And this is the first album to me where it is like Tyler, you can hear it on songs like November, where Tyler isn't just having a one-on-one conversation.

It's not just him and his therapist. He's having a conversation with the audience. He's having a conversation with the industry. He's having a conversation with his collaborators. And that's why I think people connect to this album and he did what it did. because it's finally Tyler kind of opening the door and being like, okay, I don't have to be alone in the castle. Yeah, okay.

I think also we talked a lot about the first, I mean, I guess the first four albums being a little bit on the longer side, maybe being a little bit bloated. And I think Flare Boy, another thing about this album is that it's 45, clean 45 minutes, which was very deliberate in that flower boy interview. He talked about it wanting to be very concise. It's only 14 songs. And a couple of those are like more interlude structures. And so you just have him pruning everything down to just like the core elements,

only the best of the best. He's rapping way less. He's rapping better, but you hear his voice a lot less. Yeah. That was also a very deliberate choice by him where he, what I what I have is really beautiful about this album is that it does equally showcase the producer Tyler and the rapper Tyler there are moments on like a song like boredom

Tyler doesn't come into like a minute 30 two minutes into the song but he wrote everything that up into that point he's just served you know he's getting he's grabbing rex or Anna of the north to come in and sing these parts that he wrote but he's getting way better at kind of like picking his spots not only with the rapping but also just letting the production flourish and really finding that balance. Like, you could see, we talked about moments on Cherry Bomb that do that, but it doesn't really sustain for the entire project for me. But Flower Boy for me, from start to finish, is a perfectly balanced project that both

showcase the producer and the rapper, very equally. Okay, are you ready for my favorite segment of the show? Trivia. Quiz me if you get lost. So this is where Charles and I try to stump each other with little known facts about the album. We have been keeping a tally of who has the most correct answers and the person with the most correct answers will be getting a mystery prize from our producer Justin. Justin, do you have any, have you determined what this is going to be? Have you put much thought into it?

I've been, look, I've been putting some thought into it. I don't know, guys. Tyler's not on cameo, so it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard to get that. But I'm working on it all here. All right. So, Charles, you were in the lead. Three points.

I have two points. I think I went in my bag with this. And I'm, I think you might only get one of these. I have three. I have eight. I'm going to be picking and choosing, depending on the level of your question.

So you go first. I do want a softball? You always say softball and then it's like fucking impossible. So no. No, this one is going to be super soft. Okay. What Stevie Wonder song did Tyler write boredom to before it became a fully fleshed idea? That is not a softball, but I know the answer is God bless the child.

Then it's a softball! Because I know the answer? Yes, because I knew you were knowing! How many of the audience members know that answer to that? You do research. You do research. All right. It's just not a softball.

You always make me look bad. You're like softball. It's like, fuck actually hard. All right. I want a softball in return. Okay. Wait. That wasn't a softball, though.

Okay. Okay. In a similar question, Tyler originally wrote 911 Mr. Lonely over a song by what earlys 90s R&B band? Fuck. You probably know this back in your mind because I think he said it in the Flower Boy interview.

Not voice men. No, close though. Not music, So Child. Nope. Wait. Shotade? Nope. I'll give you one more.

I don't know this one. Tony Tony tone. Damn, I did know this one. Fuck. I don't know. I don't think he said what song it is, but all right. We're tied now. We are tied.

All right. In a 2017 interview with Stephen Colbert, promoting Flower Boy, which celebrity did Tyler Idol? Jewelery Idol? Yes. I don't know. I don't care about that shit, so I have no idea. Elizabeth Taylor.

Oh, dude, okay, I remember this. Come, see? See, you got to like, I knew. He said, quote, I found a book one day lurking in Barnes & Noble and was like, oh, my God, this little white lady got some nice stuff. What does it have to do with? He was on a promotional. All right, first of all. Why does it have to do with the flower boy?

If I'm going to be real, there's not a lot of text on Flower Boy because he did the draw Carmichael. Right. that was all he did. At that point he was like, interviews are ugly. Yeah. So there's not a lot of. Yeah.

Tyler talking about this project. There's a little bit about the collaborators. Yeah. But I was like, I was like, oh, there's going to be so much secondary reading. And I was like,

not as much as you would think. Yeah. Okay. Let me go with, you know that one. Okay, this one's good. What rapper was Tyler's glitter verse inspired by?

Quavo. Yes. Nice. Nice. Come on. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. The synth intro to who that boy was inspired by a photo from what photographer?

Jonas Benedictison? Damn, yes. From Sweden? Yeah. No, Norwegian? I think he's Norwegian. Yeah. One of the Nordic countries.

I saw the photo and I was just like, it made me respect Tyler Moore. I was just like, that is such a, like, it's such a cool image. Maybe we could put it up here. Yeah. Where it's like a bunch of people on a beach and like one woman is like looking back like something is lurking and he used that to kind of describe how he wanted to build that just insane fucking. Buildup on intro. Yeah. Okay.

Tyler got rejected by both Rick Ross and Playboy Cardi for a verse on what song? He's going into his notes. He's cheating. I'm literally cheating right now. I'm going to the look. Okay. Camera. This is just the track list.

This is Spotify, our employer. Just going to Flower Boy. Because I do remember seeing this. Damn. I'll give you a hint. It's not a song that you would ever think those, either of those artists would be on. I kind of want to say November. Yeah.

November. Hell yeah. If I'm going to be honest, and I don't know if this is true. What he said? I was like, yeah, Rose wasn't getting on November. I would love to hear that because it's so outside of his comfort. Can we talk about that very quickly? It is so funny to me how much Tyler has spent his entire career being like, man, I'm just trying to get some production with Bieber.

It's kind of sad. It gets sad because he's like, there are points. He's like, damn, do I suck? I know. Yeah, I know. But also, if I'm going to be real, and this is a compliment to Tyler. his production is so singular to his taste. Yeah.

Where I'm like, Tyler, it's not that this production sucks. It is like, yeah, you need to be on this. Like, some of the songs he wanted artists,

I'm like, I could hear Nikki Minaj on this. I could hear Playboy Cardi on this. But these are Tyler records, right? But maybe in his head, it's like he's thinking if as Farrell is the model, though,

For a has some weird, Neptune's beats are pretty, I mean, I guess he could do it when he needs to in terms of like pop's, pop's song structure and style, but like in his head, I'm sure he's thinking like,

well, even if it's a little adjacent to what they're usually doing, maybe it'll be interesting enough for them to want to try it. Yeah, but if you put it, you have to think about

if you put it in an album, if you sequence it, where I think Pharrell is a lot better at, like, Feralt produces a lot of songs on Hove records, but his production can be next to Just Blaze. It can be next to Bink. It can be next to Kanye.

It'll make sense. I think Tyler, because his beats, he loves weird sins. He loves crunchy textures. He loves almost the production becomes the star. If you put that on a project, it'll stick out like a sore thumb just because you're just like,

oh, this is like kind of weird and out there. Right. right. All right. So we are not, damn. So you're still in the lead five, four total for the season. They didn't believe in your boy. They didn't believe. Okay. I have something to pitch for you. I didn't prep you about this. What if one of the stipulations for the, for the total running tally trivia challenge is that the loser has to dress up as a Tyler character for the finale? Never. Never. Justin. Isn't this a great idea? Never. The loser. So you don't have to if you win.

No, because I'm going to say yes and then I'm going to lose. So what would that entail? So like if I lost, maybe I dress up as Igor for the finale or I dress up as Wolfera Tyler or something like, you know. Well, you're kind of dressed a little bit like, yeah, right now. I mean, if anybody who's watching at home, you can see the shorts. Well, okay. The hard bottoms. I do have my flower boy.

Okay. You know what I mean? Okay. I refuse. Should I come in with the chromocopia? I guess I can't. I'll have to play it safe with some of this. I can hook you up my hair, girl.

You can take your crunch, gosh. You know, could you imagine. All right, is that a yes or no? That is definitely a no. Okay. If I lose, maybe I'll do it. Okay. It's nomination time already.

It's nomination time. This is about to get very interesting. Yeah. Okay, so remember the goal of each episode for Last Song Standing is that Charles and I have to determine the single best Tyler the Creator song ever made. The songs we select over the course of the season. We'll duke it out in the season finale Royal Rumble. We're forced to agree on the last song Standing, the single best song by Tyler the Creator. Right now, we are each going to nominate three songs from Flower Boy, we think should be in contention.

Yeah. Do you want to go first? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. All right, my first song. just let me I just know where you're going every time I listen to this album like

oh Charles is going to pick no because I will be honest there are songs on this where I'm like all right nigga get me out of urban outfitters and then there are and we're going to have to bleep this out but Tyler talks about it then there are songs in this I'm like

finally he's making nigger music I'm like hell yes what i can say i'm just gonna go by far my favorite my favorite record on this is who that boy

who that boy who him is who him is nigga who him is who them boys nigga who them is it's so good who that

who that boy who that is one of tyler's let's start from beginning. The intro is great. Yeah. The intro is just phenomenal. It is like you're waiting for the drop and it's so funny. Like Tyler is very, very good at knowing his strengths and knowing his weaknesses. And it's weird thinking of him as being someone who is feeling a little insecure

about not having certain songs in his catalog. Because I do think of Tyler as having these big records, whether it's like yonkers or radicals, that can really get like just people moving and moshing. But that's different than having a song that can go up during like, hey, we're all hanging out with friends who that boy comes on at a house party. And he talks about, and this is what I think is interesting about his evolution on the project is Tyler's talking about going to the club, even if he doesn't like it. He starts talking about going to house parties, being a little bit more open, listening to how people are reacting to certain songs, listening to the beats and the choruses and him not having those type of records.

And it's funny, I do believe who that boy was originally supposed to be for Schoolboy Q. Yeah. I love the fact that, like, School Boy Q turned it down, but ASAP Rocky saw something in it. Yeah. Because this, to me, his relationship with Rocky does point. to where he would go next in his career, where not only is he not really embarrassed about rapping anymore, when he does rap, you could tell he wants to be the best. His bars are being stepped up. The hooks are being stepped up. I think this is one of Rocky's best verses.

When I listen to this song, it's also such classic hip-hop. Like, when Tyler and Rocky have the, I think it's the third verse, where they're going back and forth in the very traditional hip-hop way. We'll talk about it on the Lucy on the Lucy conversation. When Tyler's rapping over the Kanye Pablo beat, it's just this to me unlocks Tyler. It is finally when

he's not wagging his finger at the classic tenets of hip hop. He's embracing it and just becoming a more fleshed out artist. I think this is easily the best produced on this record. Fuck the rap. I'm trying to own a planet from my other fucking business bitch. These day.

acting like some bitches like they fucking wish. Best produced song? Yeah, I mean the intro is, okay, this is what I love about Houdat Boy, and I think it really exemplifies just how much he's grown as a producer on this record where he is trying to create a very succinct world. You know, Flower Boy, I can picture it in my head. From start to finish, you're always in the same world. And again, to contrast that with Cherry Bomb,

where you're kind of being pushed in a million directions. flower boy stays consistent from beginning to end but that's not to say the album doesn't have variety yeah and i think who that boy is a great example of him learning how to make us a a song that is more in the tradition of a radicals that more darker yeah a french or yeah yeah that's that side of tyler but also it fitting this larger world and the intro of who that boy exemplifies that perfectly because there's a world in which that is not essentially he's doing orchestrasy Those are, he's using pitticado strings. Yeah.

He's using, you know, I mean, I think it's all strings essentially. I think there's some weird synth sounds in there. Dun dun dun, like he's doing his best orchestral impression on that. And it perfectly fits the sonic world, even though it is a little bit darker and he's really, you know, stabbing these crunchy minor second intervals. Like, just the sonic texture of it all feels akin. I think it comes right after a C-U again, right? or what's it come after? Yeah, it comes right after See You again, which is such a pivot,

but it doesn't feel like that so much because he is honed in on instrumentation, because he's learned how to create variety while maintaining consistency. And I think, yeah, I mean, what other, you know, quote, quote, hip-a-quote hip-hop song has an intro like this, which is so musical, so orchestral,

like, who does a minute-long build-up to the drop, like, in this fashion? Like, you can't, I can't really think of any other example to compare it to. And this is him sitting down and writing all these parts. You know, he's not sampling this. This is all original music, which I think is important. It's a very, it's a very cinema.

This record is very cinematic. He does talk about wanting another songs that I'll pick that I'm going to pick or nominate of like being inspired by like Disney scores. Yeah. And this song to me. does, when you see the picture that inspired the intro, you're like, oh, this does remind me of like a West Craven horror movie. This does like, oh, there's a monster. There's, there's something around the corner that's lurking. And that's such an interesting texture to introduce what is

essentially like, we're about to fuck shit up rap song. Right. You know, and, and when we talk about what songs Tyler was missing in his career, to me, who that boy is a record where you could not go to a house party and throw on Tyler creator. Like, it's gonna fuck up the vibe. If somebody puts Hootab boy on a playlist, no one's gonna be like, what the turn it off? There's just something so, I don't want to say Normie about it.

I don't mean normie in a bad way. It's almost Tyler puts, like limiters, restriction. And that's great for art sometimes. Him being able to just like, oh, I can not only hear Rocky on this record, I'm going to bring the best out of Rocky and Rocky is going to bring the best out of me. And like, let's not get it twisted.

I was there when ASAP mob was coming up and I was there when Odd Future was coming up. And I think a lot of this was built from the media side of it. But those two artists did not, those two collectives did not really gel. Odd futures from the West Coast, Weirdo Skate Kids into Supreme, ASAP mob from Harlem, New York, very high fashion. and it's not lost on me that as both of the leaders of those collectives started branching out and started kind of distancing themselves from the other people, they kind of found an artistic unity together because I do think they found that they're actually more similar in their taste than a lot of people would think on the surface.

Yeah. And just to circle back to the intro a little bit, like that intro doesn't work with that The intro, that huge buildup doesn't, essentially falls apart if the drop doesn't justify the minute build. You know, to your point about a house party. I mean, you know, that's also this song works live. You haven't seen Tyler live. I don't think right or not past the flower hour. Yeah.

All right. So, but this song is fucking incredible live because it's just such a build, build, build. and just Tyler goes crazy when it drops. I also like, appreciate that, again, he's building this world, he's telling this story. This song on its surface feels like it might be just a braggadocio kind of track. But at almost every song that feels like it's outside the narrative, he always finds ways to bring it back to the narrative. So you hear the car. Every time he's doing the ego bravado thing on this record, the car is very prominent in the song.

song. So symbolically we have that kind of underpinning it all and justifying it within the concept of the record. But then him saying who dat boy, especially in the, is it the third verse or his second verse where he says, fuck global warming. My neck is so frio. I'm currently looking for 95 Leo. Like he's tying who dat boy to the love interest of the central love interest of the album. And so it's not only who that boy like it's me. I'm the shit. It's a lot. It's a like he then in the second verse ties it to him searching for that boy and you hear him in the car continuing that search. So I, you know, the nerdy side of me really loves to how intentional, even on a song that is a turn-up song, that is a house party style song, he's still serving the

narrative. So people like me find the consistency, which I love. So I knew you were going to go here. I don't know if you have anything else, but I knew you're going to go here, but I think it's a great pick. Can I just say, I'm coming here with a lot of patience and love for an album I find quite difficult. You find this album difficult? I found this to be the most difficult of the albums I listened to. I bounced off it a little bit. Wait, what? Yeah. Okay, get into that though. You got to get into that then. The songs that I fuck with, like, who that boy? I was like, damn, I don't want to reveal the other songs. I was like, all right, yo, this is cold. It's so funny. The, the songs that you, picked are my least favorite.

Let's get into it then. Let's get into it because my my pick could not be any more different than yours. First song has to be garden shed. I can't I can't shit on my girl Estelle. She alleged I love it though. Like come on Tyler, I won't beseech any song

that has Estelle on it. But tell to people why you love Garden shit. I mean, what's not to love about this song? I mean, even I know it's probably not your favorite song.

But you recognize the importance of a song like this, right? It's like, no, no, no. I understand, here's a thing. The reason I'm not coming in here and being like, Flower Boy is a shitty record. I'm like, it's not. It is objectively a very good,

considered important record to Tyler. For Tyler to be successful, he had to make a record that other people would like. When he makes records that I like, you get cherry bomb. And nigger, you're not making millions, making a bunch of cherry bombs.

You know? He made the right choice. Okay, so Garden Shed, I don't know if he would like it to be framed this way, but it is kind of his coming out song. I mean, the title Garden Shed is a play on a closet.

You know, in the narrative, we hear him, this comes right after pothole, right? Yeah. So at the end of pothole, we hear him getting out of his car because he hits this big pothole and entering the garden shed, which within the framework, this kind of nature theme of the album, the garden shed being something that kind of resembles a closet. He enters this closet and essentially does a confessional song about being attracted to men. Yeah. And I think, I think it was. us a equally important song for him to make for himself and then obviously put it by putting it on the record and then sharing that with the world feels like a pretty critical juncture of his career where if he is trying to be more honest about who he is publicly and to your point

creating a sustainable and meaningful relationship with this audience i think a song like this was needed, you know, not required, but needed. Because I don't think the other, when he's rapping about being attracted to this white, essentially this white kid or person on this record, multiple times he's saying Leo or he's saying some other, I forgot what other white actor he compares him to. But anyways, like they don't really work without a garden shed that actually confronts the attraction, right? And it's not about him

It's essentially him I feel like talking to himself and accepting that part of himself rather than trying to make a big public deal. I think he kind of even undermines it at the end of the song where he said by the time you hear this, it won't fucking matter. You know what I mean?

Like this feels like very cathartic for him personally. And I think that's why it works and it feels authentic to me because one is just like such a beautiful song in terms of like, I've never heard trepidation expressed so clearly in a song. The first,

I don't, so he doesn't come into the song proper until two minutes and 45 seconds into the song. And up until that point, it's this huge seesaw of, like you can feel the like tides of emotion. And you have Estelle singing lines like, if you could only find the words to say,

find the worst to say. you have her singing Don't kill a rose before it can bloom Fly baby fly out of the cancun So clearly he's pointing to this being A very important and cathartic moment That's something required for him to Not kill the rose not to stamp on the bloom

Of this flower And before he comes in with his rap verse he's singing You don't have to hide I can smell it in your eyes There's something more to say So he is building in trepidation, not only musically, or not only lyrically, but you can feel it in the music. There's multiple stops and starts. There's multiple instrumentation switches. And it's almost like

he's like, there's a few times where you can hear him say, shit, running back or like, damn, like he's like messing up. And he's keeping all that in there because when you do get to the singular verse that is only 45 seconds long, I can believe, it lands so heavily. You know, and it's not like He comes out and says much, but it's mostly just him saying these feelings that I was guarding, heavy on my mind, my friends can't read the signs. And he never really comes out and says anything really explicit about it, but it's like, we all understand what this is. And I think a lot of that is conveyed musically, not just lyrically.

And so I just think it's a very unique song. musically symbolically it is just it is kind of a one of one in Tyler's discography for me there's not really another song like this in his catalog and it's you know

I think it comes exactly halfway into the album song 7 of 14 it's the juncture of the entire album and it's you can make a case it's kind of the juncture of his entire career you know so I think it's a beautiful song it's a song that brings me to kind of I would say tears, but it's like every time I listen to it, which is not often, it's one of those songs I can't really listen too often.

It's just like I can feel the meaning in it, if that makes sense. No, I think it's what I find like so cool about this record is for Tyler to really just kickstart where you would go. he had to do the one thing that he had not done in his entire career, which is show a level of restraint. And I mean that as the highest compliment. When an artist is truly in control of their instrument, whether that's vocally, whether that's production, whether that's lyrically, they're not trying to throw a bunch of shit at you. They're not trying to throw a fucking fastball just to show you that they can. They're so confident in it that you're giving Estelle so much time to say, you up because he knows what he has. And then when he's when he's writing the verse and rapping

the verse, it's not hitting you over the head. Even what I liked about the Drog Carmichael interviews, like the interview is not about, oh, this is my sexual awakening or or coming out album. Because I don't, I think that reading it through that lens can almost do the album of a disservice. I do think this is a Tyler just becoming more of a fully realized individual as an album. When you listen to songs like potholes, his relationship with his mom is changing. He's growing up. He's learning that like, oh, I had to experience something myself. He's going through all these emotions where I'm like, oh, maybe when I was younger I wrote a lot of these things.

Often I'm like being a little older and coming back to it, I'm like, oh, Garden Shed to me is more than a coming out song. it's more so being confident enough to be like, what am I actually hiding from? Yeah, I mean, the subject matter is almost secondary to him just being completely honest. Yes. He is writing in the text, he is saying, I am insecure. I have been hiding, like I have been hiding this. I am admitting to hiding this thing about me. That could be his sexuality, but it could be something completely different.

And I think the song still works. I don't think the success of this song and why I'm selecting it doesn't hinge on. it, him coming out as being attracted to men. It is him being the most honest he can be in his art, which I think if you're trying to be the artist that you're mentioning before, you have to be that. Yeah. It doesn't have to be about your sexuality, but it has to be the thing that you are most scared to talk about. And for him, it seems like at this time was this. And I do think the reason why Flower Boy becomes, the record that it becomes is to your point, you can put your own things onto the record. When you listen to something like November, November doesn't just have to be a

person. It could be a person. It could be a moment. It could be a date. It could be a season. And I think that is what Tyler is very, very good at doing on this album where he is not overstating. This is exactly what this album is about. It's open to it. By him being honest, he's leaving a lot of it up to our interpretation. So the listener could be like, you don't have to be queer. You don't have to be coming out to understand the feelings that you're talking about of wanting to be honest in your art, in your life, and just be the person that you are. So I was just like, Garden Shed is actually one of the records where like, I can't shit on it. Even if it's not a record that I return to a lot, Estelle is amazing on this record. His versus stellar on this record. I do think it is

objectively one of Tyler creators best put together pieces of music. Yeah. No, that's beautiful. Yeah, I think that's all I had on it. All right. So my second nomination. Finally, they did it. I talked about on previous episodes, you know, I think Tyler and Haji out of the whole crew were the ones who had the most chemistry while him in Earl were the most entertaining. And I think I know people are going to beat me up a lot of people like she and all the internet, whatever. Where this flower blooms is the one.

Running. Frank gets to do what Frank does best. Tyler gets to do what Tyler does best. I actually think that Tyler as a producer had grown enough at that point where he's giving Frank a fully formed production bed to really, really sore. When he was talking about this this album feeling, wanting it to feel like almost like a Disney score. Like this reminds me of like, you know, not to put too final point on it.

Like the flowers blooming and animals from like snow white where it is such a fucking propulsion to this. Well, I wanted to play just like the opening couple seconds to this. Yeah. This is like really good for me. I mean, just like compositionally, it's world building. It's beautiful.

It's orchestrally sound. It's the, you know, if we're talking about forward, the first track being a literal kind of forward, the precursor to the real world of Flower Boy, that opening sequence, that orchestral sequence, drops you into the world of Flower Boy. To your point,

I always feel like things are blossoming, when I hear that. Because there's, there's a thing that happens in animation a lot that used to do it around the time. That's, you know, why was unveiled where it's like,

sometimes the title card would be like, you're entering this forest. There's a lot of flowers. Right. You see the house. You see the thing. And to your point, if this is a,

a road trip, it is that moment where it's like, okay, all right, buckle in. We're finally fucking ready. And I was even, I was thinking about today where I was like,

it's so funny to go from kill people, burn shit, fucks, to I rock, I roll, I bloom, I grow. I was like, damn, your therapist deserves a lot of money. Like, they did a number on you, man. It is, it is so far, because the hook is so simple. Yeah.

But it works. There's all this call and response. And the lyric that I think is probably among the most important to his career, but especially this, this project is tell these black kids they could be. who they are. Yeah. Where... Die your hair, blue, I'll do it too.

Shit weighs a ton. Water your guard on my niggins. Tell these black kids, they could be who they are. Die your hair blue. Shit, I'll do it too. Because Tyler came in so young and because he came in as a teenager, I do think it can be... Because you see this with basketball players or rappers or any actresses and actors, any black prominent person who becomes that big, you do by default become a record.

fault become a representation of blackness. And I think that that was always something that Tyler pushed against. Rightfully so. He's young. He wants to make his music. He does not want to be this figure that means so much. And when you brought up that, when you brought up that, um, that story about the kid knowing him from ridiculousness, but not knowing that he made music, I think that's the type of bar where he's like, oh, I am at a point where I'm this superstar. there are black kids who are going to look up to me. What is my message to them? And it's not just a message about like,

it can't just be a message about anarchy. Like, anarchy's great. I love anarchy. That's the Tyler music that I think he's the best at making. But telling black kids like, hey, it's fine to be who you want to be.

Putting that at the front of the album. Also, when I was going back to re-listen, gave me a better context of just like, oh, this is a deep. album. Like he is trying to turn himself not just into an icon from a celebrity standpoint, but someone who can, like I said, open up a dialogue with his audience. And while I think

Tyler would not tell you he's a role model, there are moments in this album where I'm like, oh, you're fashioning yourself as one. You do, you are not shirking that responsibility. Yeah. I mean, even to this day, he's not heavy handed about it, but I think he does consider his influence. Like, The things that he does speak out about, I know he sees himself as a symbol. I like that as not heavy-handed, but I think he's balancing the line very well. And yeah, you can kind of point it back here where it's like, yeah, do I just want to be the goofy kid everyone laughs at? Or can't I do something else with this platform, this influence? I also, I will just say, I love the production on this.

The production on this is so gorgeous. I almost, this was on my short list. and mostly because of the production is some of the best on the entire album. The intro, as we already talked about, is beautiful. And like, you know, we don't get that intro.

We don't get the intro of Who That Boy. We don't get a lot of these arrangements without the working through of Cherry Bomb. We talked about on the Cherry Bomb episode, him starting, you know, going to Hans Zimmer Studio and recording real strings for the first time. You go back to listen to those moments on Cherry Bomb and they're solid,

they're fine. But again, we talked a lot about incremental growth on tracking these biannual records that Tyler puts out every two years. The growth from the strings on Cherrybaum to the strings that we hear in the intro of where this flower blooms to me is kind of night and day in terms of quality. It's also standing among its on its own. You know, I think there's a piano behind the strings, but that's it. You know, the strings are doing the heavy work. They're not buried within other production. You know what I mean? Same with Who That Boy, where it's like,

it's just a bare orchestral little suite put into the start of a hip-hop song. But to create those moments, you know, you had to go through the learning experience of Cherry Bomb. And we've kind of, we're now kind of tracking that progress. And that really comes to head in like something like Chromacopio, which we'll get to. But yeah, production on this is great. And then, you know, again, Again, for me to just keep tying it back to the narrative, he does, that whole last verse

sets the stage for the entire arc of the album where he's saying, flyer boy T, that's me, rooted from the bottom, bloomed into a tree, took a little while making leaves, keeping it into my branches so the family can eat. So he's, you know, likening himself to this blooming tree in this case. But at the very end, and this is the very last thing he says on the song, he says, dropping them scenes, not what you want. You don't know what I keep in the trunk. So that is pretty much everything.

This is a direct allusion to a garden shed type of thing. Trunk being a kind of a double entendre being the tree of a trunk, but also the trunk of the car. So he's bridging the two symbols of the album with this one metaphor. And obviously he's alluding to him keeping something secret. He's saying, I've come this far. I've become successful. My dreams are coming true, but there are things that I'm still hiding. and that's what unfolds.

This is track two, and that's what unfolds over the course of the album. So he's just doing a lot of stuff on every single song. Every single song is considered. I don't know when he got the placement of each song, but I'm guessing that he kind of knew where things were going to go because you don't get a line like that without him knowing this is going to come early on the album,

and I'm going to set up this entire arc essentially with this last verse. No, absolutely. And it's like for an album that can sound busy at times, I think the difference between this and Cherry Bomb is that there's a lot of lot less showing off. I think on Cherry Bomb is like it's a kid. He has a lot of money. He can be in a Hamz Zimmer studio. He's so excited to have access. Yeah. That he's kind of just like it's like when you used to like go watch your friends play a show. It's like all right, you guys need to do more than guitar solos. Like guitar solos are dope. But at a certain point like you need to end to me I'm like

the strings aren't like they don't feel like they're imposing on the song. They add to the narrative. That's why I chose this where I was just like, no, there's a big, like there are a lot of layers. He is layering his voice. Yeah. Call in response. There's strings. There's all this stuff. Frank is in the mix.

But it never just seems like he's just like showing off to prove that he can do it. Right. It's like, oh, no, no, no, I need to make this into a story that fits from front to end. And that's like, this is also a Charles chorus on. I was like, it's a pop. Yeah. No, for sure. No, it's a great pick.

It's a great pick. Okay. Ready for my second pick? Yo, let's go. Okay. I got to go for it. We got to go see you again. It's the hit song.

Tyler finally got one. What do you look at me like that for? You're going to say you don't like this song. It is my second least favorite song. I know it's a hit. Wow. Yeah, Justin. I mean, it's just, I wasn't expecting that from Charles specifically, given his

track record with some of these things. Yeah. Usually, Charles, we have you is you talking yourself into like, ah, you know, I know it's the biggest song.

No, this is the only one that beats it is Jada, is Jadid Smith on Pottles. Jadden Smith on Potholes was the moment. I was like, oh yeah, this was 2017. This was, this was a,

all right. Cole, you tell me what I'm missing because everyone loves this song. It is a hit that, it is the rare hit to, to Justice's point, that I just never got. I mean,

this is the moment. I mean, we've talked a lot about already on this season of him searching for a pop hit, essentially. Not searching like heavy handily, but you know, we know that he wants a song like this.

And I think it's, it's a perfectly executed Tyler the Creator pop song. And that he doesn't sacrifice anything that makes him great in terms of his singular idiosyncratic sound. I'll talk a little bit about, the contrast between the chorus and the verse, which is a moment that I think only title the creator could ever make. But, you know, this is him, again, being a producer, singer-songwriter, writing, I think, what is a objectively really catchy hook, giving it to a then, lesser-known

Calli Uchis. Like at this 2017, I know she's now ascended into something much bigger, but at the time, it wasn't like she was a household name. And finding someone with a voice that would be perfectly suited for the melody that he wrote, him creating a moment like this. Let me just play the moment, the string, talking about strings come in in this song is one of the most beautiful things he has ever written to me. So right here. It's so beautiful.

It's so beautiful to me. No, I'm loving this. You love this song. I'm loving this for you. Okay. It's not like personally, it's not like my favorite song, but I think if we're in this exercise of last song standing,

where we're considering more than our just personal tastes, this feels like a very pivotal song to me. This is, you know, there's a video of him hearing this song being played on the radio and him crying because this is, he got one. Like he got a song that wasn't a yonkers.

Think about his biggest hit up until this point was a yonkers. You know, playing these two side by side is such an interesting exercise where it's like, who would have ever thought the kid that made yonkers is going to make something as catchy and beautiful as a see you again? As you're talking, what I'm realizing, I think part of this is that his singing voice isn't there.

yet. Like I think he does it. But he figured out the hack, which is layer it with Cali. But I don't know if they have as much chemistry. I think they have chemistry in terms of like producer, um, singer and him seeing something in Cali that like she was an artist at this point, but like something maybe that the world at that point. Right.

Had not fully reckoned with in terms of like this woman and her talent. It's more so like the voice is a little bit. I'm like, okay, you got it on. Igor. You perfected it on Igor. And this is the moment where like, shadow, he did get one. But it's what I was listening to in the car, because I kept coming back to, I was like, I know this is a hit, but it's just not,

there's something. And usually this is like crack for me. I know. That's why I'm like really surprised. Okay, I just have to definitely sing a lot this moment though. So I just played you that beautiful string section. And tell me who in the world could do this after it. I said,

okay, okay, okay. Super heavy bass. You still get the strings and the synth. And just a full-blown rap verse in the middle, in the direct center, the only rap verse in the song in the very center of this what is otherwise a pretty safe and mellow, gorgeous pop song. That to me, that transition is so smooth. I never think twice about it,

but when you really step back and be like, how did he go from A to Z so quickly and smoothly? Like, to me, that is a magic trick that, only Tyler can pull off. I don't know. This is like a, this is like a, for a trick. There's like a for own Neptunes. Like, I'm working with Britney. I'm working with Christina. Like, you have a, you have a pop star in there, but you know,

they're like, damn. The production switch, though, not just the rapping, the production just to go fully heavy bass, combine it with the strings just seamlessly to me is so impressive. Like, to me, that's a production moment where it's like, maybe that doesn't sound out to everyone's ears. But to me, I'm like, there is only a handful of producers that could do exactly

that moment as smoothly as he did. And again, talking about moments that don't hit you over the face as a producer, that is a standout understated transition that, again, I think only Tyler can pull off. I love this song. The writing on it is really straightforward, but also like really sweet this idea about going to, like, essentially what you know what it reminded me of a little bit is like digital love. So digital love is all about.

How dare you? But unrequited love that exists only in his dream, in the narrator's dreams. And that's essentially the premise of this song, which is he's dreaming of this fantasy lover, who is the previous song, makes it clear that this person is a male. He's imagining, can I get a kiss? Can we make it last forever? About to go to war, war being him waking up to reality. I don't know if I will ever see you again.

And then him saying, essentially, I want to exist in this dream world forever, because in this dream reality we are able to be together and I'm able to express my feelings. And then when he wakes up, you know, with the next song, it's like he still hasn't done the garden shed thing yet, narratively speaking. He's still concealed for, you know, I don't want to say closeted, but he still hasn't reckoned with that part of himself. So to me, narratively, this song really works too because it is expressing what he wants to express to this dream lover that he doesn't he's not comfortable with himself having those feelings yet so he cannot yet express them to someone else so again ties back perfectly to the album's concept i love the song i think this song can

go far i'm going to be i'm going to be i'm going to be pushing for this song i think i think it's important i think it's beautiful i've kind of come around on it i think i i liked it when it first came out i'll surprise it got as big as it gotten and then i was like oh i get it this actually really good all right let's throw before we go to break let's throw to justin where is Flower Boy to you in the title in the title of the creator discography? Is it an album when it came out?

You're like, I'm rocking this shit. I was talking to Cole a little bit about this beforehand. Before you got hair, Charles. I'm a little mixed on this record these days. Not because I think it's a bad record. I think it's like, I understand why it is an important record

in his career. And at the time, when it came out, it was like, oh, he's taking this step forward. I think that a lot of the stuff he's released since Flower Boy, far eclipses, this record. I still think it's an important record. I still think it's like the pivot point for his career in a lot of ways, especially in terms of the critical perception of him,

of him getting away from the juvenile thing, even though there were seeds of that all along. but it's probably out of the records we've covered so far it's probably my second favorite out of the this would be the fifth one yeah wolf kind of really grew on me

in this in this exercise wolf really yes so far through this exercise I think it's still probably at this point bastard number one Really? Of the first five albums? Of the first five, just because I, like,

there's just some, that's crazy. There's some fucking, it's not a great project, but the highs are high. Okay. I, I, I, it would probably be Cherry Bomb second. Yeah. I would put, I would put, I would put, I'll put Flower Boy third. You wanted to go Wolf. Yeah, you want to go Wolf though. I, Wolf is, Wolf is too bloated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wolf is really, really, like, there's a lot of fat on that record. And it's like, Flower Boy, what I'll say is like, man, you got your shit, 45 minutes. I always love an artist who can get in, get out. Yeah, I mean, Flower Boy, admittedly is like Colbate, everything I want an album, like concept, story theme. The production is just my style. I love orchestral stuff, you know. I love cleanliness. I like

complex harmonies. I'm not saying this is the only how he does all this stuff on, but there's something's really special specifically for me about this record. I just love the sound of it. Well, I also think to just its point, on subsequent records, he does kind of split the record, where this is the first time where he is marrying the rapping side of him with the more producer, loving strings, loving orchestral music, loving 90s R&B, where on Igor and call me if you get lost, those to me are like, Igor is like,

all right, I'm just going to kind of do a pop record. And then call me, I'm just going to do a fucking rap record. And like, I think that's why maybe those to me are a little bit more successful, not because Flower Boy isn't.

It's because Flower Boy is like, I can do both at once versus like, Igor, call me if you got lost, they're very much like, I'm super honing in on this aspect of my career. Yeah. All right, let's take a quick break

and then we'll come back with their last nominations. This episode is presented by Sierra Nevada. Life's about embracing the haze. What does that mean? Living in the moment. Seeing where the night takes you. Being up for the adventure. And there's no better way to embrace it than with hazy little thing by Sierra Nevada.

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Charles. Where are you going for? I know where you going third. It's so obvious. I ain't got time. But these niggins. I ain't got time. Oh, watch at the boy.

I have my boys in this bitch. Looking like a seminar. I love this. This song is so sick. I'm so basic. I'm listening to the flower boy. I'm riding around the whip. And I'm like, all right.

All right. All this is growth. It's cool. Then I ain't got time comes up. Finally, Negro, finally. We got some drums up here. This should go crazy. It's so...

During the Carmichael interview, it's so funny. What should we call it? Tyler goes, yeah, there was niggas who listened like, who that boy. It's all. It's like that. Who never liked my music before. And we're like, dog, this is hard. And that's like, when I started re-listening for this project and I got to hire.

You got to you. I was like, damn, this shit is hard. I'm one of those. people. I'm one of the black people. Like, damn, Tyler, hell yeah. The production is crazy. Yeah. I also think this speaks to him really,

really thinking about the stuff that I think he would have been like, that's trite. Early in my career, the happy birthday and the clapping and the chance and the sing-along. It's very interesting. He's putting in moments into his

records now that people can scream back to him. That can, there's a number of those moments on this record. Very deliberate. Very deliberate. But to me, I'm just like, oh, that's fascinating because now he's thinking of his, he's always been a very holistic creative, whether he's thinking about the album artwork or the video or the lyrics or whatever. But it's just those little things where I'm like, even on the production, the claps. Like, I was like, oh, you want something propulsive that can get the audience to stick with you as you are rapping. It's not just about how funny the punchlines are,

how good the bars are. It's about the production giving you that sonic bed. So people want to feel interested until they get back to the hook. Like I said, we do not have to belabor this moment, but it just thought this shit. Like I said,

on basic, this shit I like from Tyler. I mean, it's really good. And I went down a production wormhole with this one. So I do have some little dissectable moment for you. Oh shit.

Hell yeah. Okay. So do you know the connection? between Tyler's I Ain't Got Time and D-Lights 1990 classic Groove is in the Heart. I don't. Okay. So do you know Groove is in the heart? Do you know that song?

Okay, so not a song you would think has any connection, but if you listen to the intro of Groove is in the heart, you'll hear this. So you recognize that? Yeah. Okay, so Tyler said he heard this song on the radio and must have heard that little part. He went down the rabble hole of like, what is that? that sample, turns out it is from the art of belly dancing. It's a like instructional belly dancing vinyl record from 1969. And I'll just play a little clip of the original.

This would be something that Tyler would love. It's such a, I mean, it's so good. And so let's hear now what he does with it, which is totally transforms it from the original sample. the bass is just knock so hard but even the percussion stuff is so cool like him just kind of clapping along

this is definitely like a timbrecht record oh that's a good that's actually definitely like taking like a like a Bollywood Indian dancing sample something that you wouldn't expect and then just like throwing a bunch of like accoutrements on top that like

those percussive or like just like inccussive things just like oh it just you're bouncing around in your mind. And once again, this is something that that beat is a Tyler beat, but it has enough restraint where he never pushes it.

I think old, odd future Tyler would have pushed this to its most absurd. Instead of sounding absurd, it just sounds fire. Right. Yeah. Do you know who he offered this beat to first

before he rapped on it? Was it? Oh, Kanye. Like Pablo. Yeah, so this song started, I think, in a session for Life of Pablo. Yes. Kanye rejects it. Then he tries to give it to Nikki Minaj.

He sounded so hurt. He sounded so hurt when he's like, damn, these beats must suck. Nobody wants these beats. That's a good beat. That's a good beat. Kanye and Nikki at that time would have sounded trash over this. Justin, do you think? I cannot picture this on Pablo.

I don't know if Kanye would have sounded good on this. Has anyone listened to a Nicki Minaj album since the pink print? Barb's are coming for you. I know. I was going to say trend line here, dude. I don't think we might be safe with my audience. I mean, at this point, Nikki is fully in Magaland, so I can, fuck it. I can hear her on this beat before I can hear Kanye.

I'll just say. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Oh, here's a little fun segment for you. Okay. So those that don't know, Charles, you are part of the Midnight Boys, P-Pew. Am I allowed to say that? Yeah. Okay.

Which is a what? How do you describe that show? Derry nerd fandom podcast. You talk a lot about like superhero movies. I love the Midnight Boys. We talk about Star Wars and Marvel. I say that with a lot of affection. Okay.

Because he has, Tyler has a Star Wars scheme in this song. And I don't, I'm not a Star Wars guy. I might tell you that I've never seen a Star Wars game. Star Wars in my life. I know that's like blasphemy for some, but that never seen Star Wars. I've never seen Star Wars. I don't like saying that loud because now it sounds like I'm trying to be cool and say that. No, I don't think you're trying to be cool. You've never seen Empire Strikes Back. No. Can I can I interject? Sure. I've also never seen Star Wars. Oh shit. All right. What the fuck is going on? I. I've seen it's happening. Justin is like a huge movie, bud. I'm a huge movie head. Yeah. I, um, when I was 10 years old, my parents sat me down and they showed me good fellas. They did not show me when I liked it.

When I liked it, they rented me taxi driver, which is like a whole other discussion. Dude, my daughter is 10. That is crazy. That is absolutely crazy. You know what? Didn't fully understand the themes of either movie. I did see one Star Wars

and it was the one with Jar Jar Binks. I had a friend take me opening weekend back. No, no. Is that the newer ones? No, that's Phantom Menace. This was the 90s. Okay.

Those ones are bad, right? So people think those are bad? Well, Phantom Menace and Attack the Clones is quite bad. Also, a lot of them are bad. It's insane that neither of you have seen a new Hope or Empire Strikes back. This is bad for both of you. Cultural exchange sitting there for you, Charles. No, no cultural exchange.

Niget, both of you need to watch fucking Star Wars. Stop. If we're going to be cultural commentators, you should see Darth Vader be like, Luke on me, I'm your father. You should see that. Okay. But I've seen it. Yeah, that's the way I feel.

I feel I've seen it without seeing it. I feel like, and I'm trying to engineer this, so Cole clips this out of the music show and emphasis. But I have, there's this whole thing where nerds have won, and I have just consumed so much of this through osmosis. I as someone who's never seen Star Wars An adult I should not know what Chewbacca looks like I should not know who Han Solo is love yourself

There's so much heat in your heart This isn't it's not hate This is classic cinema This is classic cinema I'm not asking you to go see fucking supergirl I'm like put on Empire Strikes Back How am I the evil one is? You're not you are probably right

I just think this has been forced down my throat for so long and it's just been everywhere. And then you get to the ringer and at the ringer, all they do is talk about this stuff. I got love for all you guys who do talk about this stuff, but man. You know what's dope? Lightsavers. And I'm sorry that you guys can't access that part of your childhood, but we'll get back to Tyler. You know, you know what most hipster thing I might ever say in my life is? You know, what movie I did like is THX 1138, George Lucas is first film.

Let's go. Okay. Back to the, what spawned this whole thing, which was there is a Star Wars scheme that I wanted to bounce off of you because I don't know the references. So I want to see if you think this is a good, like play on words in the Star Wars universe as the expert here. So he says, hard pill to swallow like some thick soda. I don't know what a thick soda is. Do you know what a thick soda is? I would assume it's lean.

that's what I was thinking. Yeah. Okay. Walk weird. Well, maybe it is because he says walk weird. Maybe that's lean. It has to be lean, right? Walk weird, leaning.

Okay. Walk weird because my pockets look like thick Yoda. With a Skywalker riding around solar, which I think he's also saying like solo as in Han Solo, alluding to the space solar, solar system, Skywalker. Anakin skin sprite and my tent cola. Anakin was a white boy. His tint coat.

What's the line? It's Anakin's skin. Anakin's skin Sprite as in the clear soda and his tint cola black. Okay. So we got thick Yoda, Skywalker, Solar, Anakin. Is this doing it for you? Is this a good, is this a good?

I would say of the history of Star Wars bars in rap. Are they mostly terrible? Almost uniformly. Okay. So this is actually one of the better ones. I would say this isn't like the top 10. Okay, because even the solar, you know, Luke Skywalker, this is a very famous shot cinematically.

You guys would know about it if you weren't so stuck up. He comes from Tatouine, two sons. When he's walking, you see the two sons in the distance. Oh, solar, okay. Solar. So you kind of, it's a play on, like, you got the solo, but you also got the two sons of Tatooine. Come on now.

Damn, I've been dissected. Hey! Then he says, Anakin, and then he talks about a couple, him and this guy. So the two sons. Wow. Come on. See, this is why you should open your heart to a galaxy far, far away. Okay, I like this pick.

I knew you're going with it, but it's a solid pick. Because you are priming the audience. You're like, fuck Charles. He likes the most popular songs on this album, except the Cali one. No, I mean, I actually think these are, I mean, I'm looking at the streaming numbers right now. I mean, who that boy, I guess, is like a bigger song on the project. I think how time is one of the few. streamed songs.

Really? Yeah. And even like where this flower blooms. I mean, it's first, you know, first on the album, so it has more streams. But I would, I thought maybe you were going to come in here and just pick see you again just because it was the banger. No? All right.

I like it. Stay true to your heart. Okay. I'll tell you, I love this album. There are so many songs that I was debating between for my last, my last pick. I just got to give some honorable mentions. so I just at least say their name on this episode. I love glitter.

I fucking love glitter. It's so, it might say it's kind of corny, but I think it's beautifully corny. November, I think it's super strong. Who dat boy was on my short list, where this flower boom was on my short list.

I had the toughest time trying to just decide between 911 Mr. Lonely and boredom. It was a last minute call forever. I was like, just do the 911. It's a classic song 10 with the two song with the, you know, the split.

I think structurally it's really interesting. It's him like it's a version of Cherry Bomb that is much more refined in that there are like a thousand parts on it. There's like two bridges. It's two songs combined into one. There's multiple transitions and modulations and like it has all that stuff, but it's like doesn't hit you over the face and all works very smoothly. So I think he's like really figuring out that unique song structure that he's always

has been reaching towards in that song. And it's a song that would be very comfortably would be able to nominate. But I ended up going with boredom. You fucked up. Really? Fucked up. You would have picked 911? Yeah.

Yeah. I went with my heart with boredom because I think I could have more smart things to say about 911. But when I hear boredom, I'm just like, this song's so fucking catchy. It has one of those choruses. like we've been talking about all season where Tyler's really good at making these kind of anthem-y-type songs. But this one is very deliberately like, find some time.

It's something that like the whole crowd you can picture singing along with, super simple, super catchy. I just love the flow of the beat. I love how he gets on the beat. It's like I don't really have that like smart things to say about it. But if I'm just going with my heart when I hear boredom over 911, I'm like,

I just like this song better. I fucked up though. Bortem is on is right near next to our potholes. You should have picked 911 Mr. Lumley. I will say from based on the comments that I've seen so far, boredom is on a lot of people's list. Really?

Yeah. It's kind of like this. I think it's kind of like the sleeper hit on the record. Well, I can see that. Yeah. To me, it is,

it falls into the camp of this record where it's funny. You picked a lot of the songs where Tyler is relegated and not in a bad way. No, yeah. But Cali, Rex Orange County, and I picked a lot of the records where Tyler is at the forefront. And that's why even for this exercise

when I listen to boredom, I'm not the biggest Rex Orange County fan. It's not that he's bad. It's just like not the music I would listen to. Right. But it's funny where I'm like, this to me leans over to being a rec song, even though obviously Tyler's producing, obviously he's writing a bunch of these. So it is a Tyler creator song. But as we think of it's,

conception in terms of like how do we place it in his discography against other records where he is the main element. That's where on this record it was difficult for me. I know. Yeah. He sees a lot of the floor. But that's the strength of it to me because I do want to honor Tyler as a producer. I still don't think he gets enough credit as being essentially the hip hop version of a singer

songwriter, which is a producer rapper. And a song like this isn't even a rap song in my mind. I mean, this is a kind of indie folkish anthem with hip hop elements where I do think he's showcasing the Kanye-esque version of himself where he's going to take a Rex. He's going to take Anna in the North and put them together, a combination that maybe people haven't heard before, find the voices that are best suited for the part that he wrote and give it to someone, or in this case, a couple people. And yeah, just like Garden Shed, just like even like a See You again, he doesn't really kind of. into the song. Drums don't enter the song until one minute, 11 seconds, and Tyler doesn't come in until one minute 35 seconds, which to me, like, I think opposite of you, I think in a little bit of that respect, which is like, I think that is a strength of the song where it's like, I don't miss Tyler

during that section. I'm not yearning for him to come in. It doesn't feel like it's missing anything. and that to me speaks to him as a producer and as a curator who is putting something larger than himself together on this song. And I also just have to point out thematically, what begins as a song about literal boredom, he's talking about being in his room just being bored, which could just feel like a silly theme for the song. By the end of the song, you realize why is he bored?

Well, he doesn't have someone to share his time with, and it comes down to the loneliness of a 911 one Mr. Lonely that comes quite, you know, I think it's one or two songs after boredom. So we're getting, we're still getting thematic conceptual elements in this song. While, again, I mostly just picked it because I just, when it's on, I really like it. And I can't really say anything other than that. This was one I always skipped. Damn.

I think that's a hot. I think your take. I think my- No, people are going to hate this take. They're going to hate your take more than my nomination. No, no, no. They're going to love you because a lot of people like bored. I'm like, Charles, what is wrong with that?

I don't you like, but I'm like, dog, put on who that point? Because it's like, if I'm going to be real? Think are you rich? Why are you bored? He's lonely. That's the point. He's lonely. Yeah, that's what the money's for.

Sorry. That's what the money's for. He told you he has all these cars, but he's still hiding something in this trunk. That's, I will say, I got it, because this is Tyler's, I'm rich in things. famous but sad record, which is like every, every artist. It's a navigate, but it's so funny when he's like, dog, I'm bored. And I'm like, a motherfucker go do a backflip in your backyard. You're rich as hell.

Your pocket's on Yoda. What are you talking about? All right. So I gave my honorable mentions. Is there anything? I just want to make sure, because this has so many potential options. I just wanted to make sure that I couldn't pick it, but the song, he, got a really good little Wayne first.

Dropping. Oh, right. Yeah. That's a great. Yeah. I didn't want to pick it because I'm like, once again, it was in that pocket of like, well, he's barely on. He's like, like, Lexi Orange County song. There's more of a little Wayne song. Not in a bad way, but I was like, damn, but the production on. this is him forcing himself, forcing like he, little Wayne probably put this on his record, but essentially just put a little, little Wayne song on his own record. But I like it. Oh, yeah. It works. Somehow it works in the context of the album, too. And it also continues a tradition of of Lil Wayne being on every

Tyler record since Cherry Bomb, which is kind of just crazy. It is, they are, I love their, I just love their, I know,

it makes sense. Do you like pothole? I, I actually really like pothole. Me and Justin were talking about it before we came on. Because the beat is fire, the raw era sample is really sick.

And Tyler is rapping his ass off on that song. I did say to Justin without hearing your take about Jaden Smith, the Jane Smith course to me hasn't aged all that well. So I agree with you. I thematically love this record. Everything he's talking about,

about his mom. And this is the what happened to odd future record a little bit. And I'm not saying that this is about the people in odd future. I more so mean it is the future. It is the song that situates where Tyler was at in this moment, which is, okay, I have different past going back to the drive in the car where it's like,

if I keep hanging out with certain people, I'm going to start hitting potholes. The thing that like, I was like, dog, I like this song. And then when Jaden comes in, and this is not Jaden Slander, it's just like, I think there's a reason that like Tyler is making music and Jaden makes music sometimes. Right, right.

It just dates the record. Am I being an asshole? Justin, you said this is one of your favorite songs on ReListen. Yeah, look, I don't know. I mean, we got to leave Jaden Smith in the past, right? There was a moment, and I will just say, I thought he should promise as an artist. Childish Gambino, Tyler, there was this weird thing

where every, like, every black rapper was like, hey, yo, you know who I'm trying to put on, Jaden Smith? I'm like, you don't have to put on Jaden Smith. He's already on. Like, come on, man, we don't, like, it, because here's a thing. my brother, I have a twin brother huge

Jaden Smith fan. That's the end up music? Yeah, he has Jaden Smith merch. What does Jaden Smith merch? What does Jaden Smith merch consist of? Some of the ugly shirts ever. Oh really?

I was going to say his shirt's kind of because he's pretty fashion. No, when I tell you like unequited, like he's like, yo listen. He's like, yo listen. He's like, you'll listen. It's Jay's Smith song. I'm like, bro. Stop!

Okay. Do we want to go over our picks though? Yeah. let's go over our picks because this this might be the hardest last long standing for me personally so far i don't i still don't know where i'm going with my pick but i nominated garden shed see you again and boredom and i nominated where the spider blooms who that boy i ain't got time do you know where you're going i can't do i ain't got time even though i love that record why not fire we have we have a lot of we got a lot of rapidy rap

Tyler to go. Yeah. And I think I ain't got time wouldn't make it that far based on some other records that are that are going to be in contention. It's also not exemplary of the project that it's on as much as it may be another song. Even a who that boy I think is more

exemplary of a flower boy than. So it's in between who that boy and where is fire bloom. Now looking at my list, I do have a lot of like, I got yonkers already. I got French already. You can tell which Tyler I like.

Yeah. It's true. And I can't like who that boy is the record. Like I like that boy and I'm just like, damn, this is a good Rocky verse. Damn, Tyler's wrapping his ass off. They have chemistry. This is my favorite beat off the record. Like who that boy, when it comes on, there's a reason this was the single where I'm like,

damn, you fucking did it, man. I just do hoot. Come on, man. I'm just fucking. I'm doing who da. Yeah. Go with your heart. Because I love who that.

I think you can probably make more of a kid in this exercise. I do, I think you can actually make more of a case for who that boy than where this flower blooms. Yes. I agree. And I probably like those songs equally. But there is something, there is something like special about who that boy. Just the energy and just like he captured something.

And then what really sets it over the top is that third verse. Yeah. I'm a sucker for back and forth. Same. It's so sick. And if see you, if records like see you again and boredom are. records that I think help kind of tell you where his mind is at, where he would go with Igor in terms of just like really honing in on the production, really reaching out to other

artists to help him from a singing context. To me, who that boy does the opposite from a hip hop standpoint, where it is that record where he's like, not only am I not embarrassed about a bunch of hip hop tenants, I'm going to show you that I'm just as good as these legends at it. So like who that boy for where like what I love about Tyler was a mole. moment where I'm like, damn, you got one. Okay. So I'm dreading my choice. The easy one to knock off for me and you're maybe the wrong person that asked is boredom,

though. Because I don't know how far boredom would get in this exercise. I love the song. I know it's a beloved song. But I don't know if it's strong enough to go against some of the heavy hitters. And I think there are some songs on Flower Boy that can go against some of the heavy hitters and I don't think it's boredom. Am I crazy?

No, because I also, how important would you say, like, I know this is a bluff song, but how important would you even say Tyler's musical relationship with Rex Orange County is versus someone like a Charlie Wilson or an Earl or a Frank where it's like, this is a record that says something a lot about 2017 and the time, but he doesn't go on to make a a lot of records that are in this mold. So I don't think you're crazy because it's a good record, but it's not to me. It doesn't exemplify Tyler as much as I would want it to. Yeah.

I think that's fair. Okay. So this is, this is where it really gets tough for me. See you again. I think, well, see you again and Garden Shet are both so important, I think to Tyler's trajectory, discography, artistry, in different ways. but they are both, I feel like, equally important. See you again, obviously, is the smash.

I think is still his most biggest song to date. And he did that without sacrificing what makes him special. I think it showcases everything about Tyler in one kind of one song in terms of orchestration, instrumentation, writing catchy pop melodies, but also having this single verse where he's wrapping his ass off and sounds very much like Tyler the creator of old. And so kind of in all in one very easy and digestible package showcases a lot about him. And it has, it's the first kind of inklings of him being a quote unquote hit maker that I guess he never really surpasses in this way again. But I do think C-U again informs an Igor and it informs a some of the stuff on

chromocopia even where he kind of has this skill set in his bag now he knows he can make this kind of song when he needs to or wants to on the other hand garden shed for all the reasons that we already talked about is so symbolically important and it just stands alone as a beautiful song but everything that it represents about him taking if another step in his artistry being honest and vulnerable in his music in a way that he never had before and i think really unlocking something that he just hadn't done to this extreme yet in his music that again would also inform an eager like we don't get the story even of a eager he can't tell that story without garden shed first you know in terms of him liking a guy who likes a girl and that whole kind of triangle um and so i don't know it's so easy

you have to pick garden shed really i was thinking it's i have to see you again garden shed to me is a, I think it's a better record and I think it's a more important record. I think his final verse on that is among one of the best things he's ever written and performed. I think he's made, I know, see you again might be one of his most popular records. I think he's made better pop songs after this. I also, I also want to add that garden shed at the time was like the oh shit moment. Yeah. Like, it really just want to underline the important pop. Yes.

Yeah. This record, Flower Boy does not work if Garden Shed doesn't work. If you don't have S.U. Again, it's not going to be as big of a record, but you can take S.U. again, off. And it still functions. If you take Garden Shed out of this, to Justice's point, Tyler has a different career. I don't think Flower Boy actually works.

Yeah. Should we bring in Sarah? Sarah, so Sarah is our engineer here. and she's also a big flower boy Tyler the creator head. Do you have any skin in this game in terms of these two songs? Or do we even miss something that we should have talked more about? What are your thoughts? Well, it's really funny because, I mean, my favorite is actually, I ain't got time.

Hell yeah. And then my second favorite is actually who that boy. Hell, yes. Okay. Maybe you're the wrong person for this. So, yeah. So maybe you should duke this one out. Okay.

I respect the. honesty. Okay. Damn. So, both of you guys are leaning garden shed. It's just so, like, you can't tell. It's such a coal pick, though. I'm just like, of course, I'm going to pick garden shed. I know. Without garden shed. You just can't. It's that important.

You're right. This was in my heart the whole time, just like who that boy is probably in your heart the whole time. I knew you weren't going to pick see you again. Maybe not. I was trying to talk myself into it, but it's got to be garden chair. You can't front on my, on my girl, Estelle. That's how I know. Tyler got good taste. Come on. All right. So let's lock it in.

I'm going Garden Shed. You're going Who That Boy. So our cumulative list so far is I got Bastert title track. She, Answer, Cherry Bomb and Garden Shed. I like the variety on my list, actually. I think I got a good eclectic list. You're more straightforward. One color, one note might is what?

You have French, Yonkers, Beamer, Buffalo, and Who That Boy? Boy, it's like, it is so clear what records I'm like from Tyler. And I'm just like, dog, like, when he's rapping and he making fire beats, I'm like, hell yeah, dog. That's been the most what I've been excited this season is I'm like, dog, French comes on, Yonkers comes on. I'm like, dog, this shit was cold. Well, okay, so next episode, or actually, let's pause because Justin has a coach's challenge that he still hasn't used. So for those that forgot, Justin could come and interject at any point this season

and be like, hey, you really miss this song. I'm using my coach's challenge. It's going to the finale. I feel like there could be some cases on this album. So are you going with it or are you saving it? Because we still got Igor, Chromacopia. Call me if you get lost. We got a lot of it.

We tap the glass. Yeah. It's not coming off. Don't tap the glass. I'll tell you that right now. I like that record. I'm just not picking on this. Okay.

Yeah. so if you're not using it maybe say which one you probably would have used. There were two that I really strongly considered and they were 9-1-1-1-miss-o-only. Damn, did I fuck up not nominating that? It's a really good record. I think garden shed is... I don't think you would have picked it over garden shed. I don't think so.

So I don't think it matters. And the other was November, which I love November. Problem with November, there's a lot of... line on November that actually references Garden Shed. Like, what my day ones? Track 7. Yeah, because it's a track 7. So, like, can you, can I actually make an argument that a song that only, like, hinges on another

song with hitting it against is actually the, you know, like, but I just love that song. I think in a lot of ways it's underlining a lot of themes of the record. It's very paranoid. I think it's, I love November. I just want to, I want to underline both of the. those songs real quick, but no coaches challenge for me today. All right. That's probably the good, that's probably a good choice.

So next up, it's one of the biggest ones, I think. Is it maybe the biggest one, Igor? It's easily my favorite Tyler record. Oh, wow. Igor is easily, easily, easily, my favorite Tyler record. The way you feel about Flower Boy, I feel about Igor. I love Igor. I mean, I can recognize Igor as probably his best album.

I think Chromocopia has a solid case, though. I can't wait to get to that episode, but I've done a season on both Flower Boy and Igor for a reason. Igor, if Flower Boy, well, maybe I don't want to spoil too much pod, but if Flower Boy is the bloom, Igor is the fucking ascension. That's when Tyler, he's just like, here, motherfucker, here the hits. Like, I hear Playboy Cardi, I hear Earthquake. I'm like, damn, bro. It's Flower Boy with confidence.

Come on. He earned some, I feel like he earned some confidence. Yeah, he's talking to his shit on. there. He's singing. It's like it goes from him trying to like, time's never going to be a great singer, but it goes from him being like, oh, I could do a little something. I got some melodies to want Igor. He's like, nah, fucky, y'all going here. I'm just like, hell yeah. All right. Igor up next.

Hell yeah. Let's do it. All right. We are back for, honestly, our favorite part of each episode, the Cultural Exchange. You know, I started off giving you a little Miyazaki documentary to get you your feet went into anime. And I did extra credit since that moment because I, like I said at the top of this episode. So I saw Panyo in theaters, beautiful. Like, I'm going to remember that moment seeing my daughter cry to a movie for the first time for the rest of my life.

Hell yeah. So that I've already. I'm so glad because I almost recommended Panyo to you. But I was like. The documentary was chef's kiss, like great choice because it was exactly what I needed to like. eat yourself in yeah so I is it Kiki's delivery service

I watched the one where the girl turns into a cat which is not a Miyazaki one but he like oversaw it forgot the name of it I saw my neighbor my neighbor Totoro Totoro started rewatching spirited away and I feel like one other one Have you seen Princess Mononokea yet?

I've been saving that one because I don't think my kids are going to be into that That seems like the one more for like adults, right? I would wait until they were both pre. That's like 11, 12th. I want to watch that on my own. I would also, this is in my top three. This is not for them.

This is for you. Porco Rosso is the deep cut. Okay. That is the deep cut. It's about a man with a pig's head and planes. That is the one where it was like when I was getting into Miyazaki. I was like, what is this fucking weird? ass movie and it's just so beautiful.

Okay. I love it just, I mean, these are like basic takes because I'm just getting into it. But like, obviously the world building is fucking incredible. Animation beautiful. I love the pace of these movies. It is such a breath of fresh air to use a cliche

to just let shit breathe. It's like I'm so used to what I watch like basically every kid's movie comes out in the theater. I take my kids to see it. So I'm just used to these just like fast pace fucking like, made for TikTok attention span plot lines, just animation just going crazy.

And what I love about these Miyazaki films and all the studio Jibli stuff is just, there's not like the fucking meet the mentor plot, you know, all the predictable plot lines of a classic hero's journey tale that you're going to get in a kid's movie aren't there. Things just kind of happen. It's like,

it's just a little bit more like organic in terms of an unfolding plot line rather than I need to hit these classic, you know. He is not treating children, and that's why I had you watch the documentary. He has so much respect for children and he doesn't think they're dumb. He actually thinks that they are like very smart, intuitive creatures. And like who I kind of compare him to in terms of like I fell in love with the same thing is like he reminds me of Lynch. When I watch like a Lynch film, he has a tempo and a meter that only he has as a creator.

So you're watching, similar to Tyler creator, when you're watching someone who like sees the world in such a distinct way, it's so interesting once you like watch a Miyazaki documentary, you're like, oh, he does like a very like pastoral, calm, soothing. And like when I'm around kids, I have a lot of nieces and nephews, it's funny. What they, what kids actually like about Miyazaki movies is we think because of iPads and TikTok and all this shit that kids need. Consta S simulations, they need the minions, they need fucking spider, they need all the shit. Sometimes I was like, no, sometimes kids just like, it'll be fine. Yeah. Relax. Warm blanket. Everything is good. That's why I was glad to see, because I, they first watched Panyo in the theater.

That was their first Miyazaki film. And I was glad we were in a theater because I can see them maybe getting pulled away at certain moments, but just to have them kind of forced to sit with it was like the perfect introduction. Because I think that's what allowed me to then go watch it at some of the other ones at home. If your kids can sit for it. And to your point, if you, they're playing at this in a lot of theaters. Like, if you could take your kids to like a pannio or, or a spirited away. Or just go without kids, by the way, which I'm planning on doing this with some of these.

Like, we shouldn't also say that anyone that hasn't seen these films, like, they're not just for children. Like, no, no, no, no. So there are, there's mastery. Like, even when you're watching the animation, you're just like, oh, I miss. I miss when people made art. Yeah. Okay, so, but I assigned you on your spiritual journey of your own, the Tao Deng, a text that I read once a year for a long time and then I reread it for this exercise.

Floor is yours. Loved it. Okay. just about how Tao is like just a fundamental understanding in Chinese culture where it is a way of life. You know, there is, you can take this and apply it to government, to art, to science, to just being a person in the world. Like, let me see. What are, what are some of the ones that, like, I took photos of ones where I was just like, oh. The opening line's classic.

The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. It's like so fucking bar. Dog, this one is so funny coming from me. Number 23, to speak rarely is natural as someone who can't shut the fuck up. I was like, I resonate with that.

I was like, as podcasts or something like, yeah, I got to say fucking less. I don't tell these people you don't like boredom. Shut the fuck up. Like, he'll have his moment.

Another one, this was early, I fell in love with colors. colors, colors blind people's eyes, sounds deaf in their ears, flavors spoil people's palettes, the chase in the hunt, craze people's minds. Because it's just like, it goes on longer. But I think the reason I love that you gave this to me is that for what we do a lot of times, even listening to the Tyler record and reading Dow, you recognize how sometimes you just have to stop. Yeah.

You just have to like sit. You just have to be and like be present in what you're listening to and not have an opinion on it. I had so many. Of course, I came on here and told you a bunch of my opinions on the records. But when I was like listening to the record, what is Tyler actually trying to achieve? Right. And what is the beauty in that?

Even if it's not always hitting your ear in the way that you want it, it was. And I felt that way when I was reading it through other aspects of my life. because it's such a, it's such a great text to just read as a human to just be like, yes, there is a, there is a harmony that we're always trying to achieve. Just like, can you be present? And there's a simplicity in the, in the way the text is written and then also in the messaging that I think is like, so he's the cliche thing, which is like in contemporary society, which is just moving at 100 miles an hour, it's important to have grounding texts like this. where you can read a paragraph, you know, just one of the stanzas and really just sit with it, contemplate it. And there's a simplicity to the text and to the message that is just reminds you that it doesn't have to be so fucking complicated,

that you don't have to be stimulated 24-7. Yes. There is a, there's stimulation, like the stimulation that we're all kind of inundated with every day is taking us away and like making us blind to this larger, presence that is ever present that is both without us and within us and there's a connecting this with everyone and everything that obviously kind of sounds cliche when you're saying it out loud but it is fucking true and you can feel it like when you're doing your meditation that's kind of the point of it is to tap into that larger unnameable something

that it isn't manifest but is all around us all the time that we are just constantly in the presence of that we just miss all the time. That universal field. Like when you're when you're reading the Dow, it's yeah, it's like it I loved it so much because there is this moment to your point where it's like we live

in such a consumption culture. But it also teaches you. I'm like, oh, this is stuff that people have been struggling with for centuries. Yeah. Which is like it, it's situations you're like my problem is a universal problem that spans time and space. I'm not

special and I don't mean that in a like, you're not fucking special, dude. No, yeah. No, like, this is a, this is a, this is something that all humans have been trying to contend with, which is like, who am I apart from what I eat and what I drink and how much sex I have and how much drugs and alcohol? Yeah. Like, can you just exist in the world?

And I think it's a beautiful, it was beautiful to pair this with Flower Boy because I'm just like, the underlying symbolism of like a garden and being rooted and trunks is about that is like what is the way, what is the return of nature, what does it feel like to be like water or a plant? It just exists. I was like, come on. Can I ask, you know, are you seeing a, are you seeing a transformation in your boy, a more chill? I do. I feel Charles.

I really can. I'm not just saying that. I really can. It's more in just your overall presence. It's just, it's, it's, I can, I can see the change. I'm trying. You're watching Pong, yo. I was talking to midnight boys.

Because I was finishing it up. And they like saw me reading like the doubt. They're like, you're like, read us fucking. They're like, read us. Were they supportive? Were they supportive? They were. It's a thing where it's like, it's one of those things, even if we're having a little bit of it here where it's like, it's kind of hard to talk to your boys about a little bit.

And this is a lot of cultural exchange. As I've been going on this journey of like Transcendental meditation, reading the Dow, just being very, like, even just like taking my health seriously, going outside more, like consuming more art from just like being like, oh, like I'm just going to like for fun, not for work, just go out. Right. Watch stuff. People look at you kind of like you're crazy. And I'm just like, no, no, no, trust me, you do feel better. like putting your phone away and like meditating for 20 minutes or like reading a spiritual text you are a little bit like yeah what something i've been doing i'll recommend to everyone

and if you have the means to i now go outside as soon as i basically as soon as i wake up just go outside i just sit on my porch and sit in the sun and just sit there or that i'll do my like morning stretches it's it's a it's a hack that like tunes you into that reality a little bit like right away instantly instead of like looking at my phone and just suck that into that stimulus world just go outside and sit in the sun get some vitamin D exactly root your side here's the thing I was on that but then um L.A. blew up in breathing the air as always was going to kill you you know exactly what I'm talking about we are about a mile from where a warehouse caught on fire a couple weeks ago.

Boyle Heights, the hour, a week ago from the time we were recording this. Black clouds, melting plastic. But to bring it to more positive and my one contribution to what you guys are talking about,

this is a plug, and hopefully maybe one day they want to come in as a sponsor, so I'm not just giving free stuff. I bought a brick from my phone. Oh, yeah. I bricked. Here's a list of apps that I bricked.

Twitter? Give the 15 second brick. It's a device that you know how you can set the timer on your iPhone and it's like you can only use Instagram for two hours a day. Right. And then I just. But then it gives you the option. It's like do you want, come on.

I do that now. It's on my phone. I just do it out of habit. I don't even see it anymore. It's like, come on, you want 15 more minutes. Yeah. Come on. It won't be that bad.

Just all day. The brick, when you're locked in on the brick and you can set a schedule or you can just just do it all the time. You cannot access the apps that you have restricted through brick. You need to physically swipe your phone on the brick, which, by the way, I leave it home, so I don't have it

on me. That's super smart. And I cannot access these apps on my phone. And they are Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, big TikToker over here. Reddit. I put Facebook on there. I haven't been on Facebook in years, but I put it on there for a hell of it. And I put Zillow.

and basically anything where I just felt like I was mindlessly wasting my time because let's face it, even with all the black smoke, I'm not buying a house in Los Angeles anytime soon, so I was just wasting my time on Zillow. My screen time is down to about two hours a day. That's good, yeah. I feel so much better. Yeah?

I get a, I roll over, I look at my phone, I might go to like ESPN and then I'm like, this is stupid, what am I doing? I get up and I start my day. I go outside. It is like honestly been life changing. And if I want, remember, you might be a little too young for this, but Cole, do you remember when you were younger and you had to like go on the internet? Oh yeah, you had to log on.

You had to go to a place in your house or your friend's house if you didn't have the internet and being like, I'm going online. That's what I'm doing today. Guys, I am not that, but like I am younger than y'all. I still remember being on the internet. and like it fucking up the phones. Like it's right. You need to get off.

But it's like that. If I want to go on Twitter, I have to go sit down at a computer. If I want to look at Instagram, I have to go to Instagram. There's something kind of pathetic about that. Something so debasing about Instagram. And guess what? You cannot post on the desktop Instagram. Oh, right.

Yeah. It's like, it is so debasing. Desktop, TikTok, forget it. So I just want to say, and I know this is kind of getting away from discussion, now this cultural exchange has run longer than... No, I mean, I'm thinking about getting a brick now for my... I'm going to self-assign myself a brick for this culture. This is my cultural exchange.

Buy a brick. Guys, you want to know where I want to end this? Okay. I think the L-Double S boys are finally blooming. Okay, quickly, though, assign me. You got to sign me cultural exchange for next week. So I was thinking about all of the movies, all of the TV that I could recommend you. And I might still recommend you some of these.

But I think a lot of times people will go straight to like, all right, well, you got to do ghost in the shell or you got to do paprika or you got to do all of these. And I was like, something about that doesn't feel right. So I am going to go with a movie that released last year called 100 meters. It's available on Netflix. I partially picked it because it's on Netflix if people want to do that. this with us, they can watch it. And this I picked because if the Miyazaki documentary was about you kind of just like falling in love with just like the process and the art of what it takes to make one of

these things, to me, 100 meters kind of shows you how a lot of Japanese media in this space, especially anime, thinks of talent versus effort. And it's like that story of like, what does it mean to be talented? What does it mean to show effort? Is something that like will appear in so much manga as so much anime. And like that where it was like, I was like, it is, it's a little bit different than how we conceive of it even in like American animation or American movies. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to give this to you and see what you. It's a little bit of a weird pick, but I was like, I wanted to go with something new that's not so cliche.

All right. I'm excited. Hell yeah. All right, thanks.