Dissect - IDK Dissects 'Even The Devil Smiles' (My Favorite Album of 2026 So Far)

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

IDK joins Cole for a track-by-track breakdown of his mixtape 'Even The Devil Smiles.' He discusses how his time in prison inspired the project, how he secured posthumous features from DMX and MF DOOM, and why respecting hip-hop as an art form is so important. Listen to ⁠Even The Devil Smiles⁠ on Spotify. Host: Cole Cuchna Guest: IDK Editors: Iulia Ciobanu & Kevin Pooler Engineer: Sarah Reddy Additional Production: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I've never told nobody I feel bad about these things. And in rap, you're not actually supposed to be like, yeah, I did this, I did that, I did it. And that was the first part of the record. It's like all that, getting all that out the way so I can get to this place, going through prison. All this project basically was, was me taking you through a 15-year sentence and showing you how redemption is important. Because the person that came in was this way. The person that came out is this way. That's so many people that I know.

It's beautiful, man. That's like, that is exactly why art exists. That's why a song like this works so well at the end of the album. It works on its own, but have the context, to have the arc to get you to this moment. So powerful. Welcome everyone to a special episode of DECD. I'm your host, Cole Kushna. Today we're honored to have IDK in the studio to dissect his brand new mixtape, even the devil smiles.

IDK, thanks for joining Dysk, man. Hey, man, thanks for having me. I'm a big fan of what you do. So appreciate it, man. Yeah. Yeah, excited to get into the project. We're going to talk about themes, talk about concepts and everything, and just get into the weeds on it. I guess before we get there, though, a question that I always like to ask everyone, but especially artists is like, I'm always curious about your relationship with music.

You know, music is something we hear all the time where a kid. It's in the backgrounds, on the cartoons that we watch, but then somewhere along the line, music becomes something more. It becomes more than something we hear in the background and we develop a deep relationship with it. I'm wondering if you know, if you could talk to me about when that might have happened in your life, if there was an album or a song that was a catalyst to that.

The idea of wanting to make music and be a rapper, probably I would have to say came from, except from the DMV from watching Waleh. And hearing about him on the radio, him being um because i'm african my parents is from sierraone and ghana and him being african rapping about being african being on the radio from the dmv that kind of was the first thing that sparked like potentially thinking i could maybe do something other than that i was just a fan of certain music

and listening to certain music so um you know things like 50 cent get rich or die trying was like my first cd bootleg mixtape oh well not mixtape but bootleg. And then growing from that, honestly, into like, yay, and then getting into like Wayne, you know, all these people. Wayne was actually the first time I realized rap could go beyond just saying things that rhymed. There were other ways to make your lyrics clever and add layers.

And Wayne's metaphors, you know, those were the ones that kind of like made me say, wow, rap has another layer to it. Right. Yeah, yeah. So when did you start actually making music? I mean, it's two ways. Were you producer first or lyricist first? No, I actually shot music videos first.

Oh, sick. I wrote, okay, I wrote lyrics before that. I was writing things. I say like my first song I ever wrote was about North Face Jackets. I wanted one so bad that I wrote a song about it. And that was in middle school. Remember any of the lyrics? I know you, man, when you see that in the Summit series on your coat,

you can't afford one because your ass dead broke. And I was one of the people that couldn't afford it. So it was just being a rapper. Yeah, but basically that was like kind of the first time I wrote a song, a rap song. But before that, I wrote poetry. Like, I remember in middle school writing some poems and people. laughing because of how clever they thought it was. So, you know, I always was like that guy who could put words together and people kind of knew

me for that early in my life. Then, like I said, middle school, I wrote my first song, left it alone for quite some time. High school, I was in boarding school in Kentucky because I kept getting kicked out of all the schools and getting in trouble. And I started rapping based off of what I would hear Wale do at that time. And then just people who were just really heavy into the lyric side. But I was listening to Wale and all of that. And then 808's a heartbreak, I think came out around that time.

Wayne Carter III also was around that time. So that was what I was listening to and trying to kind of mimic. And then later on, you know, when I was locked up, that's when I kind of. kind of decided, let me just try, really try to do this, you know, when I get out. And that was because of the encouragement of other inmates seeing me do it, asking me to rap, a rap, they liked what I was doing. And they were like, yo, should do that. Right.

I want to get into the even The Devil's Smiles. I thought a good way to get into the conversation. You kind of alluded to maybe the origin of the concept there a second ago in terms of when you're locked up and started rapping and doing that seriously. but I don't know if a lot of people know that you first presented this album at the Mocha, a contemporary museum of art. So why did you, was that something that you planned that you wanted to present it at an art museum first? Or that happened like coincidentally?

But I'm interested in like, you know, why debut the album in a museum. Yeah. Oh, that was, you know, places like Mocha, you got to kind of get in there fairly early, right? So that was months of planning, I think, about six months, which was, pretty fast. And the idea was to present what you would consider. I think people consider mix tapes to a certain degree, like almost like not disregarded art, but kind of like, oh, it's a mixtape.

There you go. Less than. And I didn't love that because I think the concept of the mixtape is just as genius as some of the people in prison when they take. certain resources that they have. And I mean, in prison, they could turn the most simple thing into a fucking tattoo gun. You know, they'll take a guitar string and a needle. And then they'll take the motor out of a CD player and then put it together. The next thing you know, they're tatting up everybody, you know, based off of that, that ingenuity,

based off a lack of resources. That's what rap and hip hop was birth from. Lack of distribution. labels weren't necessarily interested in it at first until they realized they can make money off of it. But they loved the art form, so they figured out how to use the turntables and loop a certain beat because they may not have had the resources to have a full band, but the beat had the band. And then it would loop that and to wrap over that and tell the story. And then it evolved.

And then it became mixtapes. And then they were handing out tapes selling tapes to the bodegas. That was their distribution. that to me is genius. It's the lack of resources that causes you to figure out a solution. And I think that like when you look at the genius in the art of the mixtape and not only just the art of the music aspect, but the art of how people are able to consume it, I thought it belonged in the mocha. Yeah. Places like that.

So contextualize it, present it as high art, so to speak. Yes. So, yeah, so you formally. kind of name this a mix tape. Obviously, like, mixed tapes aren't what they used to be. It feels like more like an aesthetic now or a concept. So I'm curious why a mixtape for this specific project. Oh, well, that's exactly what it was.

It's an artistic, purely creative decision, creatively wanting to put Who kid on there to give it that feel or like when everyone knows comes on and you hear, damn, son, where'd you find this? but not being afraid to play with string sections and put in that extra level of production, that is my version of a mixtape. Polished, if you will, whatever you want to call it. But my best effort in rap music and hip-hop

because I love rap music. It changed my life. And I wanted to show it the most respect that I could in the purest form of what it is in terms of what I like. If I understand this right, you recorded the instrumentals to actual tape too, right? Yeah. Because when you listened, this is something I noticed recently when I was preparing for this, your vocals feel like semi-separated from the instrumentals and the way that some like classic mix tapes have that separation because a lot of times they're just like ripping MP3 instrumental like just one.

Yeah. You know, they're getting the stems or anything. Yeah. So talk to me about was that like intentional to replicate that kind of stuff? or what was the idea of actually recording or maybe go into the process for the listeners what that was about? Well, I'll say the process and then the second part.

So the process was me recording everything, mixing everything, then bouncing everything vocal and instrumental. So there's a separation slightly, my engineer Kaelin's slightly cueing things. So there's even more of a separation. And then coming back and then putting it back to tape and then

gluing it back together with tape and giving a little more saturation to it. There's an important thing in music that I think a lot of music in a digital age lacks, which is the analog aspect. And I thought that, hey,

it might make it 1% or 2% better, but I'm going to do that shit because this is my art. I don't care. I love what I do. I want to give people that extra mile, even if they're they notice it or they don't notice it. I have to deal with that with my lyrics all the time

where I say things that people really just don't get and they like it at a surface level and I'm okay with that. So that's kind of one of those things, just doing that. And as far as it being intentional or trying to, you know, make it anything like something that was before, not necessarily. It was me kind of making the decision that all those little things that people disregard because they don't think

anyone's going to care that 2% here, 2% there, 2%. You do all of that, even if it takes you very long to do, you do all of those things and you'll get 10%. And I'm okay with that because this is my art. And people who listen to it deserve my effort. So that's what it was. I love that. I love that.

I want to talk about the album title. Even The Devil Smiles. I'm always curious, like, do you have the title first and then wrote to that concept to that theme or did it come out out of songs that you already had? At what point did you have the title? With almost everything that I do, I start making stuff. And then I may have a loose idea, but I start making stuff. And then whatever's in my subconscious, because I don't write my lyrics.

So whatever's in my subconscious tends to come out. And then it's up to me to analyze what am I thinking? What am I feeling? Why do I feel this way? And that's when the concept starts to come to life. and then everything becomes tailored to the concept. Even the Devil's smiles comes, actually, it started off with this project that I was doing

over all the Madlib beats called Devil on my left. And the song Devil was birthed from that. So it was the second song on that project originally, and it was on the Madlib only version of the beat. The one that you hear now is the one that I touched. And that was on my left because I was feeling very frustrated at that time with the music industry and things like that. So that was my subconscious. But then when I listened to it, I started realizing why do I feel this way about people?

And then I started realizing, oh, it's probably because in prison some of the things people get away with now would be considered disrespectful. And people would probably harm you for some of the things. that people do in the music industry. And then I started to unpack and that's where you get even the devil smiles. So it's just, devil on my left was just pure anger, pure frustration. And then I, even the devil smiles is the juxtaposition between the frustration and what the frustration actually comes from and then reevaluating myself. So it becomes therapy instead of just straight punching the punching bag, you know?

Right. So I think I heard you say somewhere, forget where, but also the name devil or the idea of devil has something to do with you going to prison. And is that true when they're doing your sentencing? Yeah. Okay. So that was Halo. Oh, Halo. Okay.

When I mentioned kind of the sentence part of it. Oh, sorry. Okay. I see what you're asking. You're really good. You're going deep. Okay. You're talking about when I mentioned devil in the sense.

sense of what they called me. Yeah. So there's a thing called a witness impact statement. And when you go to prison, they, I'm sorry, when you go to court, they, they, they, for sentencing, the victims have the opportunity to come to court and give their statement and recommend what they think should happen to you as well as the state's attorney and everyone else, right? and your attorney. So basically the victims in my case were saying like this kid's the devil.

If he is doing all of this stuff at 17, imagine when he gets older. And that was where the double part of it came from. Yeah. I mean, do you remember how you felt in that moment? It seems like a heavy load to 17. Yeah. In that moment, I felt less than I feel. now because I didn't understand the depth of what them saying that actually was at seven days. I was 18 by the time. Right. So I was like, that sucks. I'm sad that they feel this way about me because I don't know that deep down I'm that

person that they described me to be. But also I'm like sweating bullets because I'm not trying to get this 15 years, you know, which was the max for what I had at that time. Prior to that sentence, though, it was it was like 80 years or something. something total max of all the charges. Even as a minor? As a minor. They charged me as an adult.

So at that time, I was just like, man, I just don't get cooked, man. I'm just trying to, like, I have a life ahead of me. I'm just trying to, like, get another chance. Right. Now when I get older, it's a little bit like, damn, man, y'all really, like, look at it that way. Like, you're not able to say he's young. He didn't know any better.

He could be, you know, he, with the right guidance, he probably could change his life. It was like, no, I want him to have the maximum sentence, even though no one lost their life. Physically no one was harmed. Yes, there was some psychological damage because, you know, I definitely threatened their lives and things like that in that moment, which I'm not proud of. But I was young. I didn't really think about it the way that it actually was received on the end until now that I'm older, you know. So the first time you, well, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the first times that you really, talked about the subject matter was another

mixtape of yours, 2017, I was very bad, right? The first song on that album is Miss Lynch, your son is the devil. So it's interesting that you're revisiting the same time period with eight or something years, more experience and perspective. Was that an intentional connection right there in terms of addressing the same thing, but now more mature and maybe more?

Yes, 100%. That was, before this came out, I was telling my fans that this is like not a sequel to I was very bad, but a spin-off. It's like, if you go, if you listen to I was very bad up until no shoes on the rug where I'm on a jail call with my mother, at that point, if you go left, it's even the devil smiles. If you go right, you continue through that mix tape. And that's basically what that was. Okay. It's the segue from that moment on into this next chapter in my life. Oh, that's cool.

Or this version of me, I would say. Yeah. Is there a difference in perspective with more maturation, more years about this time? Like, if something like, what's the biggest difference? One of the biggest differences is like, you know, I'm not even a person that cries often. It's very rare for me to cry, but for some reason, whenever I do music, is involved. Yeah.

And, um, yeah. Music or cinema. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I kind of was like, just like, if anything, I feel bad about some of the things I did or the mentality I had because in that moment, I swear I was not thinking the way that I think now.

I just wanted whatever I wanted. I wanted to have that thing. I didn't want to harm nobody necessarily. But in a process, you know, I, I, I've done that quite a few times, knowing, knowing the feeling of people fearing for their life and that being in your hands, you know, when you're 17, you can't really comprehend that level of fear or power or abuse of power, I say. Now that I'm older, I'm like, shit, man, I was really terrorizing people, you know what I mean? Like, not what was what I feel bad about. And that's one of the probably the biggest points of growth that I, I've had.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's jump into the album because everything we're talking about is kind of in the album, right, in terms of like there is anger, there is frustration. But by the end, there is remorse. So there's definitely an arc, at least in my interpretation of the album, to the sequencing. So we start with what I'm assuming is like a real call. I almost press fucking seven on accident. Listen to that, don't like a mother brother.

I bet. I'm out of the player right now. So who are you talking to in the very beginning of the album? That's DeAngelo Sneed. So a friend of mine who I met in prison, who was also a high-ranking blood member, he was highly respected. In that time when I was on that unit with him, he was probably, you could say he was a leader of that particular unit. And he was somebody that took a liking to me and what I wanted to do.

music and even things with fashion because I used to borrow his GQ magazines and study them. And he became like my best friend when we was there. So that is the conversation I'm having with him because he's still in there. And I'm basically playing him the album. Okay. And so this might be just me like looking too hard at this, but there's a moment where you say I almost press 7 on accident, which like erases blocks them or something, blocks them from calling. which in my mind, I'm like, okay, a lot of this album has to do with, like, chance,

sliding door moments. If you get that long sentence and you don't get left, you know, you don't get released after two years on parole, like your life probably looks way different, right? Maybe you don't find a music career or whatever. I don't know if that was intentional, but I'm like, oh, well, that's like another chance and cat, another butterfly effect moment right there. And I press this button, my relationship with this guy is like cut off essentially. Yeah, yeah, no, that's exact.

So in the moment, that was a real call. So I didn't think to say that. Right, right, right. But when I'm editing it, I'm like, I need to leave that in there for that reason. Right. That's how I kind of, that's the producer side of me, kind of putting the psychology to the story. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so then we go right into Halo. Really, that's why I move by myself. I don't need no one hell. Hit the lick on my lonely because they might just tell. There ain't one of you fake. Y'all plastic as hell. Me and soft a rapper, man, we never going to jail. Produced by No ID and Dowd.

Is that you say it? Yes, Doud. So you produced yourself, but you're also collaborating with a lot of top-tier producers from this album or all your albums. What are you looking for in someone else's beat? Like, I'm sure you get sent beats all the time. Like, is it just a feeling or like? It's always a feeling.

Okay. It's just a feeling. And then if I feel there's a way to enhance the feeling or tailor it to what I want to invoke, then I do that. And if I feel like it doesn't need to be touched, I don't touch it. You know, that's like a big thing that I do. I don't like to just touch beats because I feel like it. It's just how I feel in the moment.

Right. I always like to look at opening lines of an album. I don't know. Do you, so did you know this is going to be the first song? Do you write the verses? Or was this placed first after the fact? I heard that beating kind of felt like this is probably going to be the first time. I didn't know for a fact, but I felt that beat.

felt like that's the first thing I want to hear when it's time. Okay. Yeah. I want to get into the weeds on the opening line then because super powerful. Interesting way to start. Because, yeah, say, if I was a killer, I would be like Luigi. To me, like, killer, devil, synonymous. So if I was the devil, I'd be like this guy who I think we probably all know the story of him,

do a real clean, treat the strap like a squeegee. So maybe unpacked that a little bit for me. Yeah. So there's two sides. A lot of what I write, they tend to always be double entendres or more. And there's the surface level, which is IDK ignorantly delivering knowledge. It's always the ignorance. That line can be considered ignorant depending on how you look at it.

But when you think about Luigi, there's two sides to it. There's a side of, oh, this guy's a killer. You should be in jail. And then there's a side of, but why did he do that? that a righteous way of doing that was it's almost like I always believe that anyone who has done certain things depending on how you look at it it could be justified there's people that say if someone's a pedophile and you kill them that's good for that person good for they shouldn't you shouldn't go to jail for that right um then there's some people that are like yo killing is bad

no matter what I know people in prison who have been in situations where they had to defend themselves and it ended up in people dying. And knowing that they're really good people if you actually spend time with them. So that line is like, there's two layers to it. It's like the ignorance of if I was a killer, I would be like Luigi, like embracing it. And then there's the side of it where it's like, if I was a killer, I would be like Luigi. Take my time, pick the right situation where it would help other people in my mind potentially, or I'm doing the right thing.

I don't know what he actually did. Right, right, right, right. Allegedly. What we think may have happened or what people think may have happened. That is what that line is. So I commend you for even bringing that up. Next line, too, as equally interesting in my mind, you say everybody fuck with you and everyone needy,

how the fuck we're supposed to coexist when everyone greedy. That line right there, I mean, there's been philosophy books written on that concept. maybe stated, you know, more academically or whatever, but like, that is at the root of, I think, the story of this album, you know, in terms of like armed robbery, greed and chasing. Yeah. But also, like, your experience in the music industry. And then, I mean, you follow this line by saying, that's why I moved by myself.

I don't need no one help. Hit the lick on my lonely because they might just tell. So there's an isolation caused by these relationships all. looking for exploitation of each other. And I feel like, I don't know, I just love this opening quatrain because it really sets up the album beautifully, I think. Yeah, yeah.

Man, you know, I'm glad that I'm doing this with you because I've given up on people caring about my lyrics enough to peep that. But I love doing it. There's some of us out here. Yeah. I love it, so I just do it anyway. And I'm like, as long as I sound good

and you just like it, fine. But the people that happen to get that, I feel special because that's how I write. I write like exactly what you're saying. That's how I write. And I don't know that people have fully embraced that side of me because I don't think they look for it.

Whereas you know, you'll probably see like Kendrick where they, not that he doesn't do this. He does definitely do this. But maybe they exaggerate certain lines a little bit because they just know to look for that. He gets the benefit of the doubt where you feel like you don't. I'm the opposite. I think I say things so sometimes sloppily a little bit because I like doing

that. Shout out to MF Doom. I like that drunken flow in my own way. That. And then I don't think people expect, it's like very few people think that deeply. But that's how I think. When I make these lyrics, that's how I think. Well, I can tell, I mean, for me, the evidence is there where you're doing your, every album that you have is a concept album. Like, your, your artwork is always really thought out, the world that you build, the merchandise. Like, it's all, like, so clear. Like, Yeah, thank you. There's so much intention behind it. Thank you.

And you're fucking premiering it in ARDC. What are we talking about? Okay, so chorus, turning a hat to a halo. Mm-hmm. Turning a hat to a halo. I have some ideas of what it might mean, but I'm curious what you meant by that. So that particular one, another kind of double entendre.

It's like, I'm turning a hat to a halo. So this whole thing, this whole song is me talking to you as if I'm that person that was robbing people, et cetera, et cetera. But I'm at the simultaneously I'm talking to rappers or other people in the music industry. So particularly that is just as simple as another way of saying, you know, often somebody. Right, right. But when you think about the hat and the association with other rappers, because that's why in the background, Dee and I are both saying fuck a rap nigga. Right, right. So it's like me kind of thinking about what I would do to some of the people who maybe don't, they may disregard me in a way that I find disrespectful.

You know, but yeah, but it's basically me, another way of me saying, getting rid of somebody. Yeah. Okay, so in the bridge we hear Is that the same guy from the Star of the album on the phone call? Again, so a continuation of that. Okay, so then the outro or the final verse is where you kind of lay the album concept out.

Rewind back to 2010 in front of the judge for my sentence. State gave me 15 and they dropped a gavel. Could have got away with three, but I wouldn't title. Maple rolling and I got out. Hit the studio with low and had to rock out. That's why it's real. in my eyes i made it here no surprise if i did the whole time i'd be out in 2025 25 25 yeah 2020 5 made the year you wrote that song this song and the album the project yeah so what's

so this is like the sliding doors moment right where you're saying essentially i my whole entire music career wouldn't have happened if i served a full sentence right yeah i would have been d'angelo who's still there he's been there 22 years right he got out recently and went back in I'm talking about like after two months. So, you know, I, the duality between him and I is like, all right, here's life, here's life. You go this way or you go this way. And the irony is our lives correlate. When I, I, we became cool looking at GQ magazines and stuff like that.

I end up doing the cover of GQ while he's in prison and he gets it. Wow. Mind you, this is a guy who tells me you should rap. He's like, yo, you, you got that different style like Lupe or something. Like, you don't rap like everybody else. You should try it. And that is why this record is so important in his bro and his record is so important. He actually ended up getting out in 2025.

Crazy. I got out. I would have been getting out in 2025 had I done the full sentence. So that kind of sets you all, sets you up with this kind of cliffhanger of like, where are we going with this? That's really my life. The idea that I'm doing this in the time where I would have been out. And then it's also saying, so these people that are around me, bro, you don't know.

Like, you think I'm a nice guy and I am a nice guy, but I'm not a nice guy. I'm a nice guy. That's the reality of who I am. Anyone that knows me knows that about me. And I don't like bullying. I hate it, especially because of prison. And that's the one part of me that's kind of still institutionalized. People trying to bully me, it's like the easiest way to get under my scam because I feel like

if I let you do that, that means everyone can do that to me. And I'm not willing to risk that for you. So that was me, that whole song was me kind of thinking about everybody who felt, who maybe looked at me wrong or looked down on me for any reason. I'm just like, yo, you don't know what I used to be. who I used to be, you know? Yeah. I mean, well, it's also interesting about your story.

It's like how many other IDKs are not getting the second chance that you got where these guys are more than the thing that they did wrong? Yeah. And not getting that opportunity to evolve like you did. Yeah. And that's why I dedicate so much energy to certain efforts that allow me to help the next person like me see that. Not turning your back on people. I love the concept and the practice of redemption, giving people another chance, because that's what I wouldn't be here without that, you know?

All right, well, let's move on to Devil, Madlib, and IDK on the production. So I guess I'm curious, like, production-wise, like, where does Madlib's portion, you know, and then yours begin? Like, what did you add to the? So Madlib's version is the, the main. mainly the sample. The choir, the church. Yes.

And he did that. And then I came in and I took that. I like to stab my chops. So like it gives it sonic space when it's less held out and more like, so the real version is like, then, then, so you click this.

So I took it and I went, oh, oh, sick. Yeah. Uh-uh-uh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Ha-ha, I'm back again. I'm on my first letter and my acronym. Did a bit for having straps, but I'm strapped again. So, my... And then I changed the drums, so the drums like, to give it a little more rhythm. The original drums break was like, you know what I'm saying?

Right. So that's, I'm glad we're talking about this, so people understand what I did and what, you know what I mean? That's what happened. I basically chopped his sample. Yeah, that's cool. And then reflipped his half. Yeah, yeah.

That's it. Okay, so I guess a general question I have for you relates to this song, but also just the first half of the album. I think you already kind of alluded to it. But like, how much of the first half of the album is you kind of like returning to the mindset of when you're doing the crimes? Oh, man. Almost all of it. Okay. It's kind of looking at everybody from that lens, looking at the music industry.

Like, I'm telling me, like, the young. version of me. I do, like, I remember one time, I was in studio with Farrell and he took off his watch and he put it on it. And it was like a million dollar watch. And I was like, the person I used, I would never fucking do. You know what I mean? Like, like, what?

Like, stealing is weird to me. Like, I don't know why any grown person would do it. But unless they maybe have to eat or something like, fine. But like, hold me. And then let's not even start. there. There's people where I see them, bro, and they like try to style on you and act like they, this or that. No security. Just walking on. Bro, what I would do to people, if this was me, I'll be having a field day with a lot of these rappers. And that kind of is the mentality of what I was

thinking about when I was making this. That's why especially devil. Like, I was just like, yo, like you don't understand. Like, the bottom line is a 50 cent line that I quoted. But the bottom line is I'm a crook with a deal. If my record don't sell, I'm a robbing still. Yeah. Okay, the bottom line is I'm a crook with a deal. If my record don't sell, I'm a robin still. Hey, yo, the bottom line is, I'm a crook with a deal.

If my record don't sell, I'm a robin still. You better recognize. You know what I'm saying? Like, that was on Halo. That really was real, you know? So that's what it was, though. Well, yeah, speaking of 50, he's kind of all over, I forgot to point out, yeah, you quote him you know, quite fittingly quote how to rob.

Twice. Twice. Well, oh, on the same, on, on HALO? I did it on HALO. And then on this one. And then I did it on the second one where I had, but it's he quoted Biggie. Biggie, yeah, okay, so dreams that are fucking, yeah. Yeah.

So. Dreams of fucking an R&B bitch, but I wake up early and bounce with all the shit. I had dreams of fucking R&B bitch. Then I fucked the R&B bitch. For those that don't know, I had dreams of fucking R.B. Bitch. Yeah. The start of verse two. We'll play clips here to contextualize all this.

For sure. Um, well, a really cool moment in the second verse two where it's like, yeah, you have this like 50 cent motif in these first two songs. And you start, like, rapping like a mixture of him and Eminem together. Don't make me go martial matters with a little bit more of 50. Open up them doors and see that you're on war with me. You knicks ain't... Remember the first time I heard this part, I was like, oh, he's kind of like sound like Eminem right here. And then you say it.

I'm like, oh, shit. And then you bring in the 50 things. And DMX a little bit. Okay, right, okay. When I do the flow and I'm like kind of crazy, so I, oh, I mean, that was like, that was definitely DMX. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The stutters stop. Yeah, yeah.

There's like a thing that you do on this album, a handful of times, I'm going to just name quiet confessions. So so much of the first half the album is like all bravado and, but then you get these little moments of like truth what I love about the chorus is like if you listen closely to like the filler I guess so you have the main sample what do I got what do I got in the background you say I don't have two six hundreds a new four 10 so basically the bills never end which is like such a twist in terms of like you think you're flexing but then you're showing the reality of like

the main you know the bill is stacking up yeah So, I mean, what was the idea behind? Is this going back to robin mentality? Yo, listen, I was put like this. If I turned into somebody that just purely started robbing rappers, I'll probably become a million, like, make millions of dollars just doing that. Because the reality is, again, the way people operate, that I'm very, if you around me,

I'm chill, but I'm paying attention to everything around me. Like, I'm very, like, when I say in the line, I tell my bitch, when I ain't parking unless I'm backing in, I really, I don't even fuck. I'm backing in every time. Because why I'm from, you don't park head first. How come? Because anything could happen, you got to drive out of there. Imagine something's happening.

You got a back out. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Three-point turn to get out of there. Right. Nah, you need to be able to back it. I'll take the time to back it. in so that when it's time to leave, I'm out.

Yeah. So that's how I move. And I see people around and they're just like, ah, da, da, da, da, da, da, nah. Life is so sweet. I have a $400,000 watch on. And I have another $500,000 in jewelry. And I have no security.

And I'm just walking around. And listen, let me just make sure I say this. This can happen to anybody, regardless if you're aware or not. But the people who are aware tend to be less likely. to get got. I think that that was just me kind of understanding that aspect of myself, you know, in general. Okay. Well, I want to get through most of the album. So I'm going to have to start skipping songs. P.O. Is there anything, I love this song, but we got to keep him moving. Is there anything about P.O. you're dying to talk about? I feel bad. I hate just skipping songs.

No, I don't, don't. My answers are long-winded. And this is a great, interview. Thank you. No, that one in particular, I think it's as straightforward as you wanted to be, and this is as deep as you wanted to be. That's just a certain aspect. Jumpouts, giving pop quizzes, I'm going to pass a test. Like, I got arrested by jumpouts, basically undercovers. They pulled up on me in a Dodge Caravan. Oh, crazy. And blue lights came from a Dodge Caravan. I had a warrant for my arrest. That's how I went in. So that awareness. Yes, you know. Okay.

Well, why, so I guess it is the first feature. You got amazing features. You've had amazing features throughout your entire catalog in terms of like, I love the curation aspect of your features. They seem very deliberate. I love the pairing of, you know, one of my favorite ones that you did was West Side Gun, M of Doom and J. Electronics all the same song.

Yeah. And Mike Jones, too. He did Adelisk. Okay. Actually, that was him really doing out of it. Crazy. So, I mean, so when you're thinking about features, you know, like using this example.

So why Black Thought for this song? Me and Black Thought was supposed to work for quite some time, honestly. And I just love the idea of him on Ketranada beats. I don't want to say too much. But let's say that sparked something else, right? Okay. But I love the idea that I know a lot of the roots is a lot of K's inspiration in general. Black Thought is one of his favorites.

Okay. And it just felt like he could do that thing. And we were supposed to work for some time. So when I finally sent him that, I'm like, yo, what are we doing? His verse is crazy. Yeah, he's going crazy. Okay, Clover. Love this song, love the energy.

Super interesting dichotomy, though, because the verses are all kind of like bragging about getting women, essentially. Yes. She like to let it breathe. She don't like to wear no draws. And when she get a press, treat my dick like Zola. But then, like, if you pay attention to the cruise, chorus, it takes like a pretty deliberate turn, even like instrumentally, like the synths come in, but then you go and say, I just want to fall in love, I just want to fall playing to the stars.

So it's like, what was the concept behind that of doing that? It's teasing what happens later on with misogynistic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like the fight between, ah, bitches, fuck bitches, da da da da and it's like, but no, the reality is, bro, like, I'm just kind of messed up from certain things. I really just want to fall in love. That's really what it is. But at back, fuck this bitch. Yeah, we come to the dorm, like, whatever, whatever I'm saying, like, all this stuff like kick her out, no co-ed shit. Like, it's the battle. Yeah. And the music, that's the part that, so Joey Valenz and Bray, the main part of the Bs, Sam,

I arranged that and then I added the chorus part where the beat switches up and changes. And then I edited their verses. So, okay, so in a moment like that, does the instrumental inspire that turn, thematic turn, or do you want, did you want to go there with the lyric somehow

and then you wrote the music to do that? Does that make sense? No. No. I did the music first. Okay. That changed and then I felt,

thought about what I wanted, where I wanted to take it and the story on it. It's every time, it's so crazy when you say, loving you is all no, loving you is all now. And then right after there might do.

Sigma. Okay. got to talk to you about Sigma. So Goldie produces this, which people don't know. He's a UK drum and bass producer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is essentially, I mean, quasi-intermental sound collage, interlude maybe, but like it's sonically so different from everything,

but also somehow fits the album perfectly. I just took the portion of Clover that I did and then I sped it up. Oh, that's all. Oh, that's sick. Okay. And then I switched the beat. So he had the, that was his drum break. Okay.

So he did the drum break and then switch the beat. And then basically I'm saying in the background, people thought it was a sample of something. It's actually me singing. I'm like, I could feel that red that. Oh, right. Yeah. Sounds like sting or something. Yeah, I thought it was a sample.

No, it was me. Yeah. And it was just basically me emulating being pulled over in the feeling. I remember I was listening to Jake Cole's, the first album, Cold World. And around the time he was talking about getting pulled over by the police when he got signed a rock nation or whatever the case may be, that was the time I ended up getting pulled over. Oh, interesting. And I felt like I was going to get pulled over. Like in that moment, I felt that.

So when I said, I could feel that red, that blue. I feel the police coming. And that's why at the end it goes, whoop, right. And then it goes to cop. And it's like, why would I? Like, I should have ran. Like just run, run. Yeah, yeah.

But it's deeper than just obviously just running. It's about running from a lot of different things in life that put, got me in the situation that I'm even in, you know. Okay, well, actually, I wanted to talk to you about specifically about this idea of running because there, I don't know if this was deliberate or not, but there is a pretty strong motif of like movement. So the hook of cop is got me running over and over again. Got me run. Start to finish, you say, when I say move, everybody move. On PO, you essentially after every lot, like the first 11 lines, you say move. So one, I just want to know if that was, if I'm picking up on something that was intentional, but it does seem like there is this idea of like you're running from the cops physically, but also just like being young, directionlessness.

And also like constantly like some of these songs you're talking about like street hustling and like, I imagine that is like constant movement all around. No, this is exactly what it is. Like even on P.O., it's like, I originally wrote that hook and I originally sang it. Then I got a little Jordi to sing it. And it's like the move aspect, so the move aspect, it's particularly in that one, is like, no matter what you're constantly moving, you're doing this, you're doing that and you're constantly watching and you've got to be ready to move or you're moving. from one point to another point. There's things that I just say,

even after it. No, I don't want to say that. I was able to get to where I'm at in rap by figuring out how to have the money to do what I do because at first it was fairly expensive to try to just go to studio, things like that. Having to move, having to make sure that everyone's not always in the same spot when, I don't want to say too much.

Allegedly. Allegedly. I'm saying too much. Don't worry about that. But the move in and start to finish is like the concept of robbery. And when I say move, everybody move, when I say put your hands up, whatever the case may be, but trying to make it sound like a song where you're dancing or whatever, you know. I started playing with that at first on Simple, where I would try to figure out how to say things

that talked about the streets in certain ways. but as like if you're not listening for that reason, it's just a party song. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, super clever. Yeah, DMX, we got we talked about these vocals because, I mean, start to finish makes me want to run through a wall. That song is like crazy.

And it feels like the perfect use of these vocals. Yeah. So tell me how you, do you have the beat first and have the vocals around? Or like, how did this come together? No, I did a song for him, for X first. Then he passed. And it was actually me and Denzo Curry. So Denzo has more of that song.

I only used the chorus. Oh, okay. And basically, I heard a beat that Ken Tranada sent me that I originally passed on. I was like, this sound like some rough rider shit. I wonder if those ex-focals would work for this. Okay. And I asked Pat, who's his longtime collaborator friend about that verse. And he was like, I mean, there's just kind of lying around.

Yeah, I sent it to you. He sent the verse and I put it together. And that was me producing his vocals to a K-Tronata beat that was already in existence. When I sent it to K, he was like, yo, man, it sounds like he recorded this on this beat. It really does, yeah. So, yeah, it fits perfectly. So, yeah, this section of the album definitely feels like the most explicit in terms of like being very transparent about some of the stuff you have done in the past.

I think that's most transparent on Scary Mary. I have interested in the hook of this. So it interpolates an old 1998 song called Holiday by Witch Doctor. Because every day is a holiday. Another motherfucking Dollar Day. I didn't know who Witch Doctor was before this, but he was part of organized noise, Dungeon Family, Atlanta, Generation 1. Assuming you're a fan of the song, but why did you interpolate that song to desserts? Because I wanted to, well, that's what I felt in the moment.

I remember watching a movie where that song was in it. I don't remember the name of the movie, but it was Chris Tucker's in it. And this is a white guy, it was actor. I forgot him to do his name. But they're in it anyway. Is it Charlie Sheen? Do they have a movie together? I don't know.

I'm not sure. But, yeah, I remember that scene. Every day is a holiday. another motherfucker on the other day that's what came in my mind but the reality was i wanted to tell a story that had this kind of like i'm doing all these things i'm getting in trouble i'm like and then karma hits me in a way that i it shouldn't have right so i'm thinking i'm getting away with it but then something worse than what would have happened if i got in trouble for that ends up happening to me that i didn't actually do so that was the whole way of telling that story but less

just say I altered it to make sense for today. Like, you know, I didn't have find my on iPhone at that time. I, everything I'm saying on there to some degree is things that I've experienced. Right. Okay. Seeing a lady leaving out the train and took an iPhone. Turn to find my feature off and then I took it right home. Walk inside a house and took some dollars out my stepfather wallet left enough. So if they asked how much he lost, he couldn't call it. Yeah, because this feels like the turning point of the album. So the setup, I mean, that the chorus in my mind sets up the irony of the last verse,

where you end up, so you, the third verse, you're like pretty detailed about grabbing clothes from Zara, taking some Gucci, you say you're feeling amazing, it's Christmas Eve, I'm going to buy myself presents. You know, meanwhile, the course is saying every day is a holiday. And then as it's told here, you, you know, end up getting arrested for a murder that you didn't do on Christmas Day, which is the ultimate irony. I'm assuming that's a Christmas Eve so I could buy myself a flashy present even if it means I probably never make it in a heaven. Then looked out the window, see the red and blue lights. Anything they said that I did, I'll deny. Mother open up and call me down like is it true. I went to jail on Christmas night for a murder I ain't due. I'm assuming that's a true story.

Yeah. Or the date? Some aspects of it. Okay, okay, okay. The date, no. Okay, that was me. Right, just story telling me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But then, like, right, so this is a, this is a, in my mind, narrative moment. Because right after. I know what you're about to say. Yeah, well, right after you're going to sell block freestyle. Yeah, yeah. So we're now in prison, right? Yes. Sacrifice my life for rap.

My bars come from Jesus. Think these niggas hate and that is just my thesis. Stompin with my Air Force One till it creases. Basically, the first. part of the project is like me saying, I'm this, I'm not, da-da-da-da-da-da. Then it starts to, cops come, I run, da-da-da, okay, cool. So this is where it becomes like a quadruple, entendre, or triple, because now I have to make the story also make sense while telling these different layers of the song.

Right. And I'm telling you basically now, I ran this time, next time I go, I'm doing all this stuff, I get locked up, now I'm in the cell block freestyleing. Yeah. And now I'm in flaka. Now it's me reflecting. Right. And then it starts to break down, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. I love how immediate it is. Like, it's, because it does go from that verse where you literally say I feel amazing. Mm-hmm. But then, like, eight lines later, you're locked up. Just like that fast. I imagine that's how that happens to do.

Yeah. Being in a cell, like, I'm actually in the place that I saw on TV and I've heard about. And I'm like, I'm here. and I'm fucking going to sleep thinking, having dreams that I'm out and waking up in this cell again. That's crazy. Yeah.

Worst feeling ever. But yes. Okay, well, yeah, I mean, it's interesting because you re-create. So cell block freestyle is you freestyling over like what sounds like people like beating on, you know, archipelic drums. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you would be in prison. Right, exactly.

But this could see also feel symbolic of you like, the start of your rap career, right? as you know yeah yeah exactly yeah this is these are the ciphers that i would do that's why lyrically i'm not thinking too deep like i'm kind of just saying whatever then obviously because i dk and i'm ignorantly delivering knowledge halfway through or towards the end i start telling you about what's going on in life and like seven thousand dollars a month for a car uh lease or whatever it's like that's not it like you know what i mean and this is what i'm going through but At the end of the day, if I didn't rap, I would probably have to do this because I couldn't get a job.

That's me kind of tying it back to the concept. Right, right. Okay. Do you think you would, had you not gone to prison, do you think you would have started rap? Also, if this is a thing about, like, me leaving, please don't feel like we're good. Oh, okay. Yeah, I thought you had a heart out at, like, 3.30.

I do, but this is so good. Like, we just going to write. We go a little bit more. Sorry about that. Yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so yeah, I guess in your mind, do you, obviously you just can't know for sure,

but like, do you think if you had not gone to prison that you would have started rapping? I don't think so. I don't know. I mean, I love music. Nah, I don't think so, man. I don't think, I would have gone back to prison actually. If I didn't go to prison to start, and then started rapping, I would just been like doing shit. I would have gone to prison eventually, dude.

There's no way. There's no way. I would have gotten in prison eventually. Yeah. Now, if I wouldn't have wrapped in prison, I would have just been going back. Right. More than times than I already went back. That's wild. Yeah. It's a trip. I think I'll be there right now. Crazy.

I hope, I don't want to say that, but I think the way that I was moving, yeah. I would have been, man, I'd probably have been like some type of kingpin or something trying to figure it out doing that. I would have been back. There's no way. I'd have been back. I would have been, I would have been back. Yeah. Okay, so Flocka, one of my favorite songs on here. I just want to personally thank you for putting MF Doom on a conductor beat. Fucking so sick.

Thank you. So, yeah, talk me through the Doom vocals, where they come from. This is now your third time collaborating with Doom or, you know, it is a state. So why, you know, what made sense about it for this moment? Well, Doom specifically, um, he, he did a verse for me on pizza shop. I was very bad. And then some of that verse didn't get used.

And then a piece of it appeared on red. I originally wasn't going to credit it as MF. Doom. But then when he passed away, Jay Electronica was like, man, because he hadn't sent his version yet. And he's like, now I've got to do this. I'm on it. And then it just felt like, you know, in the moment of him no longer being here,

the right thing to do would be to credit them so people understand that's exactly what was going on. And I think from there, I still had a little bit left. And it was like, one of the lines I remember was in no pussy in over a decade. Damn. And so when I'm putting this together, I'm like, wait, hold on. Wasn't he talking about prison in the last bit that I had left?

There's no way. And I pulled it up and it was that. And then I was like, let me see what the BPM is. And it's basically the same BPM as the beat. Yeah. I was like, you know, like J Electronica, I gotta do this. If I want it's a homemade shank in either hand, back from a bed looking all young like Peter Pan. God try to tell me what to do cause I'm in the jam.

With no pussy in over a decade, damn. It was just everything said that that was supposed to happen. And I think that's one of my favorite songs, if not my favorite song on a project, because I think I'm telling the story that I never told of being behind bars. And, you know, like, fuck a sentence. They gave me paragraphs. Cop and Flaka from essays to make the time pass. Flocka is K2.

I tried K2 on my B day and smoked it really slow to make the high last because K2 slow, uh, high is really like hit or miss. It could be long, could be short. Don't know when parole about the hit, starting to lose my mind this close to popping shit from the flaka, um, and the frustration. But I really am the opposite because I'm not really, I'm not really a tough guy. I'll say I'm not really a tough guy. Maybe at heart I can be, but I'm not really like, But in that moment, the frustration is how I'm feeling. I'm the cell box finest. And he comes in, it's St. Rocket Science.

It's more like a rocket with a silence. Damn. That's avoid violence. Yeah, I was going to ask you specific. Well, the line that you just pointed out was maybe, I mean, it's such a, the image of you on your birthday doing that drug in jail is like, I don't know, it's powerful in terms of like, like, like very, very much. lonely.

I was seeing, I was hallucinating. That's crazy. Yeah. I was seeing like weird shit. I still remember the beat. I had a beat in my head. I still remember the beat to this. I want to produce it.

It's the weirdest beat. It's probably like, but it's actually a decent beat structurally, but nothing sounds like this beat in music ever. I should make that shit. But yeah, what's your, I mean,

I guess you're interpreting Doom's lyrics just like we are. But so what is the idea beyond? And this ain't rocket science more like a rocket with a silence. This ain't rocket science. It's more like a rocket with a silence. Let's avoid violence. They got me in the right place with the wrong timing. A click full of criminals, iron sharp and iron.

This ain't rocket science. It's more like a rocket with a silence. Like it's deep. It's impactful, but it's quiet. Like the beat, like how it felt. The story, it's like, again, that line, like, I tried K2 on my B-D-A is a deep line, bro, for me. Like, don't know in parole about the hit,

starting to lose my mind as close to the pot. You know what I'm saying? Like, conductor, why the judge trying to make a nigga suffer? 16, but I mean, 15, but I'm 17. What a crazy deal. Then a tray full of green liver. What a crazy meal? Because if you've been in prison and then you get them,

that liver day is the worst day. No one wants that shit. Just give me a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I'm cool. I'll rock with the milk and peanut butter and jelly sandwich. It's already mixed together and shit. It looks just like it's only peanut butter. And it's like the fucking livers really literally looks green, bro.

It's like terrible. It's the worst. Some people eat that shit. Some people just destroy everybody's shit. Like, yo, you just give it to this guy. Fucking garbage disposal. Like, I remember that, you know. Green lover, what a crazy meal.

Imagine being black in the same. black in the cell and right down a block is where the arians dwell and you ain't got five but the arians line is real thing i was um i was in i was in when i went in first day when i went from jail to state prison there was um so you wake up like four or five in a morning for breakfast that's when they serve breakfast so you got to wake up from your sleep or some most people sleep in but if you want that breakfast wake up from your sleep and you walk up from your sleep and you walk to what they call the child hall. You walk in a child hall and you see everybody sitting.

It's all politics. It's all gang politics. I remember my first time. I was so not macho, but trying to make sure I, like, overly prove that I was comfortable. That I was just like, whatever, man, because I'm here, bro.

This is where people getting raped, people getting stabbed, people, all kinds of shit. I got to be, I'm not in no gang. So I'm like, the best thing I can do is be as comfortable as possible and have no sign of things. fear. Was I afraid? I think by the time I got there, because you go through processing, I knew not to be afraid. So I wasn't afraid. I actually was relieved because it's way better in prison than jail because prison is meant for you to be there for a long time. So it's a lot

more comfortable, a lot more to do, you know. And I remember going to the child hall by myself and it's time to go sit down and there's these two white guys and just go. And just go. put my tray down, what's up? You know, they barely wanted to say, what they said, what's up? And then they just got up and left and moved to another table. And then later on, I could see the guy by his bunk. You know, he had a tank top on. He just took off his shirt, tank top on, and he was going to change.

And there's like two thunderbolts on his neck, which means that basically in the Aryan Brotherhood, you've killed two people in prison. But it's the Aryan and then Swazaka on the other side. And I was like, oh shit, they're arian. That's why they got up. But they got up because they, in that particular prison, they weren't powerful. And I'm black. So they don't know who I belong to.

They're probably looking at it like we don't want to. There was literally only two of them. But that's what I meant. That's what that came from. You know, imagine me in black in the cell. And right down the block is where the Aryans dwell. And you ain't got $500K for the bail. By the way, there's no bail in, I mean, there's situations where you can have bail in prison,

but it's just me saying, because there was a time where I had $300,000 plus another $200,000 bail. You could find, you could look this shit up. It's like online. And they're like, you know, you ain't got $500K for the bell and you ain't like the one that, you are not the one that like to play show and tell. I really love that project. I mean, that song specifically. because I am still giving people bars that are clever and using wordplay,

but I'm telling the story at the same time. So those are two layers. Yeah. But yeah. Well, the imagery, yeah, I think it's some of your best writing. This whole second half of the album is, I think, some of your best writing, because it's just, yeah, the storytelling aspect, just the imagery and the emotion, you know, especially around that, like, you know, the B-Day line, that stuff like that, you know.

Okay, so let's get to misogynistical. So I did, I actually did think about this as an inverse of Clover. Damn, you're good, bro. So for the listeners, like essentially tells this story of a relationship with this woman over three verses, each verse being like a different time period of this relationship, a different aspect of it. Gather around, I got a story to tell of why I pray my first love go to hell. I was in the county, I was up in my cell And then I got a little envelope in the mail

It read, Jay, I really miss you, I can't wait to kiss you And what you're going through? I have a process question, like, when you know you're going to tell this story, you say you write all in your head. Like, how are you developing this so that you can have these, essentially every verse ends with a little twist. So like how did you put it together? If you've ever been, like people,

there's going to be people watching this that's been in the studio with me, I don't fucking know how this shit. I'm serious, bro. It's scary. Like, the ability to do that. And I need to probably live stream me in the studio one day for people to really understand. I'm like, I'll really fuck with this guy. Because I think if you see that, you'll realize, like, I have accepted it.

I have a gift. I think I'm kind of like kind of thinking about it. but there's this weird subconscious thing that I tap into. And the shit just starts flowing and coming out. And it starts making sense. And then it starts realizing. That's why I says, like, therapy for me. I'm not sitting down for two weeks like this.

I don't know the last time I've done this. I'm not doing that. My mind works too fast for me to sit down. I would have lost everything by the time I'm done right in this shit. Okay. I think or my conscious, my self-subconscious works faster than I can even think. And that's literally how this is happening. Like, people are watching this that have been in the studio with me.

You know what I'm talking about. That's what I do. And it's, for me, it's unbelievable, but I accept it. So I was just like thinking about my situation. I actually wrote two songs in that session. I wrote this verse. It's like, I don't want to talk about that. Blah, okay, I like that.

I do that often. I do like multiple verses. So you're saying there is a different concept to the same beat. Yeah. Didn't like and then you. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm not one of those guys who struggle to make a verse.

Okay. You know? Yeah. Well, I mean, it's pretty incredible. I mean, even if you told me you wrote it down, it's still incredible. But, yeah, no one that comes, just kind of flows out. but I do like it does and again we're now on the back half of the album

you're showing a little bit more introspection and like perspective on these stories because you know calling back to Clover where you're kind of like womanizing and conquering through sex you do that to her in the second verse but then you kind of spill in the third verse

kind of articulate exactly what you're doing in terms of like You say, you ain't never at home. You always around, though I was never down to take a chance on giving out my heart. Always thought I would never be in love, was always smart. Sometimes people that love will be the ones that make you sour. But for every day I breathe, I ain't giving them that power. And giving them that peace of mind until I get a piece of mind.

So I tell them peace after I get a piece of her behind. It ain't easy to love, trust nobody. right? So why the hell would I ever go and love somebody? That's why I have trouble with my rumors lyrics. Because I'm not writing this. Right, right, right. Sometimes people that sweet are be the ones that make you sour, but for every day I breathe, I ain't giving them that power and giving them that peace of mind till I get a piece of mind. So I tell a piece after I get a piece of her behind. It ain't easy to trust nobody. So why the fuck what I ever go and love somebody? I look on my IG and see this really happened. Like I saw my ex.

call friend post something. I'm like, who's that? Oh, that's like, damn, she's married now, you know? Yeah. But you would only say if you felt away about it, right? So I think there's an inner part of me that maybe wants to fill away about it. I'm not a hater, but I love that the inner part of me in this project on this song, particularly it's like, why in the hell when I envy you? You know what I'm saying? I have all this stuff. Why would I envy you? Like, I know heaven is a thing and you look like you came out of hell. What a shame. So why in the hell would I envy you?

And then it goes to the end. And at the end of the day, none of this matters if you don't find a person to me and have children and all these other things. All this stuff is okay, whatever, cool. And I embrace and I appreciate it. But at the end of the day, what's most important? I think love. Yeah. You know?

So that was me kind of like, yeah, why would I? V. I don't, look at what I'm doing. Yeah, yeah. You did that to me. Now look at me. That's my fuel. She broke up with me when I was on 23-hour lockdowns. He came to visit me to break up with me. I never forgot that, you know? That's why I love for me, I'm like, I'm so tough when it comes to like that. It can't be no worse. It doesn't get no worse than having to think about that behind bars on 23-hour lockdown, not knowing when you're going to get out. Yeah. So yeah, it was a beautiful song. Then we get into Life for Life. Mm-hmm. Love this song. Thank you.

So there's some Survivor's guilt in it, but I'm curious, just I'll just lay out a general question about it. Like, what is the song's concept? What's the theme and like? I'm not disin Drake. Okay. That's, I'm not going to ask you. No, I'm seeing some wow theories about that. Yeah, of course.

Yeah, but yeah, just lay out the song's concept because I didn't quite get a grasp on it. So I just wanted to ask you flat out. out like at this point in the project like what is what's the idea so there's a saying when you get locked up if it ain't life it ain't long so the idea is as long as you don't have life you'll do it's a short amount of time it helps you get through the time that you have to do because you'll be back in no time when it's time for you to be back you'll be like oh that wasn't that long yeah not really but right right right yeah definitely the people that weren't in there with you like oh shoot you someone's old back damn when he walked that time he walked that time he walked that

down. So it's about the mentality, life for a life. You can get life for a life. Right. But also, if someone takes your life or takes a life, you take a life back. So this is, again, double entendre. Yeah. Life for a life. Life from the judge for taking someone's life or someone on your side gets a life taken, then you go back and take another life. It's the cycle of mentality. See, I don't know why they cry. Till we see them die, we will not be satisfied. If they try to take a life, then we got to take a life. If it ain't life, then every sentence like, make a nigga. That's why I start saying that shit. Like, I don't know why they cry. Until we see them die, we will not be satisfied. If they try to take a life, if they just try to take a life, then we got to take a life. If it ain't life, then every sentence light. Make a nigger take flight. if you try to take ice. Stacking up my cash, making money off your bice,

selling whatever. Fuck a double back. Niggas coming back thrice. Coming back three times, four times five. Four times five equals 20 on your head. Guaranteed to leave them dead. I wish I could change.

This is where I start to let you know. I'm not embracing this. I wish I could change how a nigga like to live. The problem is the change ain't enough to pay the bills. So for what the ice work, He's gonna leave your body chill.

Me, I'm bumping jazz while my bitch clean the house. She keep it fresh. She don't know my niggas in route to leave a mess. Wish that I could change how they think. It got me stressed because they live inside a hell while my life is hella blessed. I'm acknowledging that I don't have this mentality. I, so much so that I could see all the problems

that are happening in certain neighborhoods. of certain communities based off of this mentality of life for life. And that was me expressing that. Yeah. Yeah. Why push a T for the song?

Heard the beat. Usually it starts with the beat. Yeah. I thought it made sense for the beat. Because you never know what verse someone's going to turn in. You don't know if they're going to stay on theme, you know. Right, right. So you kind of got to...

Do you give direction to your collaborators? If I'm in a studio, I have to feel it out Because some people like that, some people just want to do them. Right. So I got to use discernment. Right. I didn't have to say nothing with him. I just told him, this is the record.

He came back. Killed it. Yeah, he did this thing. Okay, so everybody knows and scrambled eggs. Everyone's nose is so good. I love the beat. Thank you. I didn't even know that was Rizz on the song until I saw the credit.

I never heard that voice from him before. It's super sick. Some of my favorite lines on the whole album, on this song. I got to ask you about, I don't confuse liberation with a slut, the English language that we know today is fucked. So before I ever say hello, I need to know what's up. I don't confuse liberation with a slut. The English language that we know today is fuck. So, before I ever say hello, I need to know what's up before I... So, can you break that down? I think that when I learned about, especially in this past two years,

what I've learned about the English language is people turn it into whatever they want to. For instance, they'll be like, you're misogynistic. Very few people I know actually hate women. I'm not saying that they exist. But maybe they may have said something that obviously leans towards that, which could be worded differently, but, you know, or manipulative or controlling or different things that people use. Or the one that we hear a lot, narcissists, you know, everyone kind of throws that out there. And I think what I meant by that is some of the things that people say twofold, like liberation, I don't confuse liberation with a slut.

It's like there's an idea of sexually liberated. And then there's an idea of just kind of doing things just because whatever that definition to somebody may be. And I think people picking and choosing when they want to use it as it fits them as opposed to going by the definition. So that's really a setup bar for the rest of what I say. The English language that we know today is fucked. So before I... Ever say hello. Before I ever say hello, I need to know what's up.

Because hello, I need to know what's up. You get what I'm saying? I need to know the individual that I'm dealing with. That whole song is this thing about realizing what the big part of the beginning song was. And it's funny because that song came from a conversation that I was having with somebody. When I was completing this project, I was having a conversation with a guy, a finance guy, Swiss finance guy. And we were just talking. And he was like, I told him the concept of the album, he was like, no matter what, though, I know you're a good guy.

Even if the industry makes you feel a certain way, don't allow it to turn you into something else. That's what's gotten you to this far. And so he's like, you should write a song about kind of people in the industry and all these things, but don't. But at the same time, not allowing that to change you. So that's what everyone knows comes from. It's that conversation in my subconscious and freestyle in the song. Yeah. Well, yeah.

So, yeah, does seem to center around authenticity. And so if we're like, I think if it was like, well, you're in this industry. you're presented with a new devil, which is like, going back to the exploitation, still kind of like being, you know, cautious with movements and all that.

So it does seem like we're like, narratively speaking, the timeline is like, okay, jail, post jail, now navigating music industry. And then we get to the final song, Scramble Deggs.

This song, just got to tell you, like, such a beautiful song, super powerful. Thank you. This is, What are my favorite things about hip-hop are songs like this.

Because we think of hip-hop. Masses think of hip-hop as a lot of bragging. Obviously, it's part of it. But then you have songs like this. You have songs like Sing About Me. I'm dying a Thursday. You have songs like 4-4-4. And so when someone, especially on this album,

the way you set it up, that has we've experienced so much of the bravado from to get to this moment where the mask fully comes off. You know, and like, I mean, is this, is this, are songs like this vulnerable heart to write? I still feel regret from the people I rob. My heart still hurt from the people I've harmed. I still can't sleep from the pain that I've dealt. And especially can't sleep from the person I, it's clear to me that common. No.

No? No. I write music with the perspective that it'll never come out anywhere. I don't know. So I just do what I feel. It's like, you know, dancing when no one's looking in the room or in the shower or whatever, you know, that's exactly what it is. So I'm just, I don't have to drop the song, so say what you feel. I'm so glad I made that song, man.

Because that song, all it does is allows me to see the human being and myself still throughout all the things that I go through and I've been through. and it's just like, you know, understanding how feeling like you have everything at one point and then realizing that, yo, at the end of the day, anything could change, your circumstances could change, things can be taken away from you, success could be taken away from you, and then you reflect. You know, I got anything for anybody that ever had to worry about the, that never had to worry about the, that never had to worry about. about the rent or worry about the AC coming out the vent. That's so fucking powerful to say that to me. You know, like, um. Well, for me, like contextualizes some of the reason, like for me, songs like this contextualize the entire album.

Just contextualize the mindset that you're embodying in the first half of the album. Does stem from envy. It does stem from hurt, from loss, from, I mean, I always think about like, anger is like a masculine expression. of sadness, you know, and some people, even when you're feeling the anger, won't acknowledge that part of it. The anger is almost like this protection.

Yeah, wow. Always underneath it is this, is exactly this song. Facts, facts. And when I finally put it together and it's like, the lines that I feel like, there's a couple of them that mattered a lot to me. But even when I just said, before I catch the blues, I take my chances with white just to eat more green, take a hell of a bite, but I'm blacker than cold,

so the sentence ain't light. And, you know, I'm freestyling this. So it's like, wow, I'm like, I'm keeping it in this theme, but I'm still saying the hard part of making it make sense and also the hard part of making it rhyme. all in one thing. My brain is doing three things at one time to get that line across. And then going into like, I still feel regret from the people I rob.

My heart still hurts from the people of harm. I still can't sleep from the pain that I've dealt and especially can't sleep from the person I. And it's like me being able to kind of say that made me feel like a lot of weight was off of my shoulders. Because I've never told nobody I feel bad about these things. And in rap, you're not actually supposed to be like, yeah, I did this, I did that, I did it. And that was the first part of the record. It's like all that, getting all that out the way so I can get to this place, going through prison. It's basically all this project basically was was me taking you through a 15-year sentence

and showing you how redemption is important because the person that came in was this way. The person that came out is this way. That's so many people that I know. It's beautiful, man. That's like, that is exactly why art exists. That's why a song like this works so well at the end of the album. It works on its own, but have the context, to have the arc to get you to this moment, so powerful. I really want to say thank you for really looking at this way because I feel like so many people overlook the effort that I put in to these things.

And I've just gotten to the point where I'm okay with just doing it for myself. Like, yeah, fucking, man, nobody will ever probably know what I'm really trying to say. Man, hopefully they like the songs. Hopefully they come to my shows. Hopefully they show me love, you know. But this, you got, you actually allow a platform for people who may not be looking for these things to actually see it. Because this is what I do. This is really what I do.

This is what my art is. That the other things that people know me for, that's not really, it's not that deep. That's not the depth of why I do this. Ignorantly deliver him knowledge is why I'll make a song like, shoot my shot, we're offset on it. And it's on the radio and all these things are happening. And then bring you to an album where I'm battling love. That was you see for yourself.

I'm battling with the concept of love, not understanding, coming to the conclusion that God and love are the same thing. Is He Real was about battling this conversation with God, not understanding. Is he real? You see for yourself. Is he real? you see for yourself, whoever listened, listen, I'm battling with the concept back and forth.

For every point that I make that makes you believe that I believe in God, I make just as a compelling of a point where I don't. And it's the back and forth and taking the time to do that and taking the time to make sure the last letter of every word spells you see for yourself. You can talk about that. Knowing you see for yourself is coming out and it's about love. so many people were stuck on he can't stick to one sound on an album so he can't make an album and I'm like I'm taking it further than that yeah I'm showing you I can do all of this and stay on one subject but so many people's ears and minds are not trained to be able to look at it

that way so they can only go by the references I thought people would figure it out right and it seemed like a lot of people never did so now I put this record together I'm like all right I'm going to show you I could make one thing. Yes, there's different sounds even within that one thing, but this is the one thing. Here you go. Yeah. That was the challenge.

Here's the challenge. And putting all the other stuff that I've done. And I think that's why a lot of people were, they were so stuck on, why do you have a song a burner boy and it's an Afro beat song? But then before it was Tyler and then it was you and push a T. And then the beat chains to this. And then that was kind of like Playboy Cardi and that. I'm basically showing you pop culture and then telling my son.

story and whatever compelling thoughts that I may have. Yeah. But, you know, that's why this is important. Like, uh, even if it's just you, I feel good that somebody gets there. There's some of us out there. Well, it's also, I think the reason why I focus on hip hop so much is because I don't think a lot of that stems from like hip hop not being taken seriously as an art form. People not thinking rappers are thinking working on this level.

Yeah. Just generally speaking. Not everyone does, but there's enough people taking this art form. very seriously, using the storytelling and conceptual potential in the genre, which I think is, I mean, there's no other genre where you can say so many words. To me, and storytelling-wise, that is such a powerful tool. People like yourself, people like Kendrick are maximizing that potential. Yeah.

You know what I mean? But public perception, obviously has a lot to do with history and stuff, but this black art form just doesn't get that type of respect. No, I appreciate you saying. that just always also for anyone watching this always remember this can you mention Kendrick as well when you think about me always remember that I'm also a Gemini the best rappers are Gemini period I'm not even just saying that because I like if you look all the people who are able to do the thing that I do at a high level all Gemini or maybe there's some people

that are not Gemini to do it but the concentration of Gemini yeah we're Yeah, I'm Gemini too. Oh, yeah. That's why you do it. Well, speaking of Gemini, we got to get to, I mean, talk about concept. This is going to tie it all together because we get to the last verse of the project where you say, essentially it feels like a poem. Yes, a poem.

But you reveal the album title, even the devil smiles, even the earth cries. Evidence that our human characteristics are meant to live side by side. So we're getting the dichotomy. You're paying off the two halves of the album. album would show those two sides, you know. I don't know how much you want to talk about it, but you say one album title here, even the devil smiles, and then you say even the earth cries. Well, okay, before we get to the album part of it, why not Angel? Why did you go Earth instead of Angel? Even the devil smiles. Even the Earth cries. Evidence that our human characteristics were meant to

side by side. I look to the left on the right, the ground and the sky. Which Angel would be the obvious play, right? I think that's, so my whole thing is what was, people are, will be like, y'all, I'm atheists. I don't believe in God. And I'm like, okay, that's fine. You don't have to believe in God, but this, is it the word God? Is it religion that's tied to God that makes you say that? Because if you are really thinking about it, there's something that created this earth.

And I know for a fact, I know for a fact that this earth, is if it's not God, you can call it an engineer. It was engineered perfectly. And I remember being a kid. The first time I ever heard about God, it was raining. And my aunt was like, that means God is crying. And I was like, who's God? And God is this.

And then she goes into religion in heaven and hell. And if you're good, you go to heaven. If you're bad, you go to hell. I know it was the start of a bunch of others. but it's just another way of saying God. Right. You know, it's God crying. Yeah.

So then you say, look to the left, look to the right, so maintaining this dichotomy idea, ground in the sky, words from my heart skip my brain and pass through my mouth, as I asked the reason why the answer has always been IDK, and then beautifully tie up the entire narrative here. A name that I created while the uncertainty that imprisons me, while behind bars help me say, I'll be forever okay.

I look to the left on the right, the ground in the sky, words from my heart, skip my brain and pass through my mouth as I asked the reason why. The answer has always been high. D.K. The name I created while non-certainty and imprison me while behind bars help me say, I'll be forever. Okay. To be continued. I mean, I don't even know if I have a question about that.

It's just so beautiful, and I love how it just ties a perfect bow on everything. Yeah. And then I say to be continued. Okay. So what do you want to get into that? The vulnerability, I took you from this part of me to the vulnerability. And there's a reason why I ended with poetry. That was written.

Okay. Anytime I write poetry, it's written. Okay. Because I can't freestyle poetry. Freestyle is great when it's a beat. Right. You don't really rap this. Yes, I'm saying this.

So I wrote that. And I remember I told you in the beginning, I started with poetry. That was the first time I ever did any bar, any lyric. So it was a full circle moment to end with that. There's a couple reasons why, and, you know, maybe you've seen it, maybe you know about it. But basically the last letters on every song, say something. Yeah, so let's, well, let's get into that. So we'll put it up on the screen now.

if you highlight essentially the last letter of every song, it spells out Jason Mills' solo rap finale. I'm afraid to ask what that means because I don't know. I'm afraid to answer it. I'm not saying that I'll never rap again. I'm not saying that. But I wanted to definitely do this particular thing and leave with a bang. me putting pieces together to make a rap album versus me working with, let's say, as alchemist or

MADLIP, and it's a collaboration, you know. At this moment in my life, I'm more excited by those things than I am creating another RAP, Sully Rapp project. And this might actually, ironically, be the first solely rap project. Everything else has kind of always had other than that. things happening. This is like rap. So I don't know. That's just where I'm at. Certain things excite me. That's what I realized. I made the best music when I'm excited about the producers. And that's kind of where I've gotten with this particular thing.

Now, on the flip side, again, I take you from all of this aggression into vulnerability, and I end the album with to be continued. Because to be continued is the next chapter, which is what people are calling it now edict, but even the earth cries.

That's the next chapter and it's going to be a lot different. But it's a conversation with this last project. Okay. Well, as much as you want to say because I know we're not out yet, you haven't announced anything officially,

but I am interested conceptually about what does that mean in conversation? Like how is that tied together? So my relationships, all the relationships I've ever been in in my life, and I'm sitting down and realizing, oh my God, if you piece all this stuff together, this is my relationship with rap music. Interesting. Oh, okay. Solo rap finale. Yeah.

And then. My relationship with rap music. Like as a retrospective almost, if this is the finale. Yes. It's like an epilogue. But all of these things are things that have been through with real human beings. Right. So personifications that are also symbolic of.

Okay. Interesting. That's all I want to say. All right. Yeah. Okay. Well, I just have to ask you because I love the Easter egg type shit. I love the when you do the track.

So practically speaking, like. How did you do it? Because you're still, so the difficulty level seems like a 10 because you have an overall narrative. So you have the sequence of songs that I'm sure you're not changing the order just to do the spelling. So, I mean, how did you lay all that out? So it takes weeks. That's the other part that makes it sad sometimes because people don't know to name my song and make them all make sense, but also make sense for the, it's the same way my liver. are making sense at different on different levels.

Right. Except ironically, when you have all the music and it's time to make, name the project and say something, it's even harder than the lyrics for me. That's one thing I can't freestyle. It's like a puzzle. I have to write it down. It's like figuring out, okay, what word, okay, this word makes sense for this concept, but then this thing needs to end at this thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then I got a, you know, and then you make a, you know, and then you make a word.

a mistake and then you realize how bad you are at spelling and then you try to figure out how to fix it. So whenever like distribution label or whoever people were like, what's the names of the songs? I don't. That's the last thing I do is usually names. So did you have the track order and then you kind of used the name messed with the titles of each song to do the Easter Yes, but then don't forget. I also have to make sure that I'm prioritizing the feeling of the project and how things happen in sequence. Right. And still figuring out how to get the words to line up with this thing and that.

Man, I think that I may be the only person in the world who somehow figured out how to have 48 hours in a day instead of 20. and people who work with me, I think they know exactly what I mean. It's ridiculous the amount of shit I do. Like tomorrow I'm going to arrange flowers. I told you why, but... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And do a plethora of other shit.

Yeah. But it's because I learned how to do that when I was locked up. I understood the value of time. That's one thing that that did. patience and the value of time. The value of planning. All I could do is plan for when I get out. I have my book.

I wrote my own makeshift calendar. And every day, I would check off the first day, like whatever day I was there. And then if I was good that day, I check off the back day for a good day. Because you can cut your sentence down if you, obviously, good behavior, right? So I take one off, take one off, take one off, take on, take on, take on, take on, take on. Take one off. No write-up today. Cool. Get a write-up today. They, they, they, you go to the, the, um, it's basically you have court within the jail and, and they're like, all right, this is your charges. Da-da-da. All right, we're taking away 15 good days. You got to take them good days back. Okay. That's how it works. And I learn in that moment the importance and the value of time. So now when I'm out, I'm using the fuck out of it. Anybody knows me, they know I use the fuck out of my time. Yeah. I'd take calls in a shower.

I don't know who you are. I was talking to my lawyer. Shout out to Josh Kamen. And he's like, are you in the shower? We cool enough. Not even that way. It's not very professional in other situations. All right.

Well, this was a beautiful conversation. I really appreciate all your time. I always ask, you know, what's the biggest takeaway you want listeners to grapple with from this project? Man, just please continue to have at least the expectation that there's layers to what I do. Always. I don't care how simple the song sounds. There's a reason why I did that.

There's a reason my name is ignorantly delivering knowledge. That's real. It's intentional. I make music with intention, period. No matter what you may think it might be, there is intention. And I will not release it if there is no intention. And that's it. That's all I want people to know. Yeah, beautiful. I appreciate your time, man.

Thank you. Thanks. Appreciate it.