Dissect - Jay-Z's The Blueprint vs. Beyonce's Lemonade | LAST SONG STANDING [E2]

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

Today's matchup pushed Cole & Charles' friendship to its limits: JAY-Z's The Blueprint vs. Beyonce's Lemonade. The LSS Boyz continue their journey to crown the Best Album of the 21st century (so far). Every episode this season, Cole and Charles each nominate one album they feel should be in contention for the century's best. Each album is discussed individually before the two albums battle head to head, where Cole and Charles argue until they can agree on the better album. The winning album from each episode advances to the season finale Royal Rumble, where the LSS boys will face off one last time until they can finally agree on the Best Album of the 21st Century. New episodes every Tuesday. Hosts: Cole Cuchna & Charles Holmes Producer: Justin Sayles Audio/Video Editing: Kevin Pooler Video Engineer: Chris Wohlers Theme Music: Birocratic Chapters: 00:00 So Delicious Ad 00:32 Intro / Why Jay Z vs Beyonce? 07:11 The Blueprint - Album Facts 14:41 The Blueprint - Album Trivia 18:40 Biggest Song: "IZZO" / "Renegade" 31:07 Best Song: "Heart of the City" 36:00 Worst Song: "Girls, Girls, Girls" 40:19 Best Deep Cut: "U Don't Know" 43:40 Best Moment: "Takeover" at Summer Jam 50:17 Lemonade - Album Facts 1:00:24 Lemonade - Album Trivia 1:03:16 Biggest Song: "Formation" 1:06:04 Best Song: "Freedom" feat. Kendrick Lamar 1:14:36 Worst Song: "6 Inch" feat. The Weeknd 1:16:08 Best Deep Cut: "Sandcastles" 1:21:57 Best Moment: HBO Film / Surprise Drop 1:29:07 Head to Head: The Blueprint vs. Lemonade 1:44:32 And The Winner Is... 1:51:57 Cultural Exchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome everyone to Last Song Standing. I'm Cole Kushna. And I'm Charles Holmes. And in this four season of Last Song Standing, Cole and I are debating our way through some of the best albums of the past 25 years in order to crown the greatest album of the 21st century so far, a.k.a. the last album standing.

Last episode, Kanye West, my beautiful dark twisted fantasy, battle, Drake's Take Care. And ultimately, Twisted Fantasy came out on top. But this episode, we're diving deep into some black love. But before we get there, Cole, I have to ask, how are you feeling? How are you feeling after last episode? I feel it pretty good.

I was proud of myself for making it through a Drake-centered podcast without shitting on him too much. It was the most mature. I've seen you. Honestly, that's how I felt for most of our Kendrick season. I'm just like, I'm like, oh, I got to be on my P's and Q's. I've got to listen to some of the best best music ever made. Yeah. Such torture.

But if we go an album for album, I'd still take Drake albums over Kendrick. We're after a great start. All right, but before we get too much, we already, people are producers in the back, especially Justin are like, all right, you guys have talked about Kanye.

Enough. The last episode for a lifetime. So do we want to get into some of the rules, the premise of this before we were revealed to the audience, what we're doing today? Yeah, let's do it. All right.

All right. Remember, every episode Charles and I each nominate one album we think should be in contention for the 21st century's best. Each album gets its own half of the episode. We'll make a case for why it's one of the best albums of the last 25 years. Then at the end of the episode, the two albums go head to head, and Charles and I will debate until we can agree on one winner. The winning album from each episode advances to the season finale, Royal Rumble. That's where Cole and I will face off one. last time eliminating albums one by one until we can crown the greatest album of the 21st century,

aka the last album standing. Now, Cole, can you reveal to the people which album you've picked for today? I'm going with, I think, I think definitively one of the most important and best projects of the past two decades. I'm going with Beyonce's Lemonade. What are you doing? At first, the fat boys break up. Now every day I wake up, somebody got a problem with Chuck.

I'm going with Jay-Z's the motherfucking blueprint, baby. H to the is O, V to the is A. But shizzle my nizzle used to dribble down in VA. Break up. Every day I wake up, somebody got a problem with home. Cole, last episode we briefly talked about why we paired Kanye and Drake together. I think it's probably obvious in the audience why we pair. Jay-Z and Beyonce, but maybe what's less obvious is why we pick lemonade and blueprint as

albums that could kind of go toe-to-to. Yeah, I mean, there's an obvious connection of them just being this power couple that kind of borders on American royalty at this point. And so I think as we're honoring the past two decades and a half, it's important to just critically look at them as not only musicians, but as just like these kind of pop culture icons that we've kind of now just grown up with. They feel like they're a part of our lives. And their careers, the trajectory of their careers have been so interesting that that's one element.

I think what's interesting specifically about Blueprint with Lemonade is that lemonade, obviously, the genesis of it is Jay-Z's infidelity. Yeah. And Blueprint, I think we see some of the problematic, the problematic versions of masculinity that ended up leading to that infidelity, which gets. directly addressed in Lemonade in a way that I think shocked everyone when it came out in terms of, like, linking it back to the Black experience in America and tying all these cultural threads, historic threads together in Lemonade, which I feel like are present in the blueprint as well.

I don't know. Does that make sense? No, that makes perfect sense. And I think people are probably wondering, because we had this conversation. We were like, well, is the album to pick from Jay Z actually 444? Because that's a little bit. As a pairing, yes. But what I will actually, actually what I realized in rereading stuff that I had already read interviews, making of, whatever. I'm like, the reason I think Blueprint actually makes sense as the Jay-Z record, not only because I think it's just more popular in terms of just like where Jay-Z was at in his career, I think when Beyonce was making lemonade, it was this inflection point of the Solange elevator incident happened. To your point, at this point, Jay and Beyonce are the celebrities to beat. they are royalty. And that was kind of the first time

we really had seen a chink in that armor. And I think similar for Blueprint, it's coming at this time where Jay's like, all right, who's the real king of New York? He's beefing with Nas, prodigy of Mobb Deep, and also he's coming off of a gun charge and then stabbing Oumer Vera.

So it is this sliding doors moment for Jay-Z where it's a project where he's almost having to explain himself to the audience of like, no, this is why I am the man, this is why I run New York. This is why all of that shit that everybody's talking is bullshit. Let me re-center the frame

similar to what I feel like Beyonce does so beautifully on Lemonade. Yeah, we'll talk about it when we get to Lemonade, but it does to your point, like the inflection point, I feel like this is like, we've seen what she's now done with the Renaissance trilogy that seems to be kind of the culmination of

all her artistic powers and probably end up being kind of her Magnus Opus the Renaissance trilogy. But Lemonade, I feel like, where the kind of the flip switched as an artist where she elevated her art into that higher art sphere, right? And she's working with film. She's working incorporating poetry and she's really creating this beautiful piece of art in the Lemonade film and also the Lemonade album. And, well, we're burning too much pot on lemonade. We'll get there. But I'm really excited about the pairing. Yeah, man. We ready to go? Start with the blueprint, right? Hell yeah.

All right, blueprint. Hoves' sixth studio album, which was released on September 11th, 2001. The 13th Song Project features one collaboration and appearance by Eminem on Renegade. Production on the album is mainly handled by Connie West, Just Blaze, Bink, trackmasters, Timbalin, the Blueprint spawned four singles, Izzo, Girls, Girls, Jig of That Niga, Song Cry. And I was actually surprised about this when I did the research. Obviously, the blueprint drops on 9-11, but still, Jay Z sold an impressive 427,000 copies in its first.

Which is crazy in terms of just like what was going on in the world. And Jay Z being the New York artist, still being able to sell over 400,000 is... That's absolutely nuts. It is very, very nuts. And the project is three times platinum, which I think is actually like lower than I thought it would be in terms. But I guess it kind of just, it makes sense. You know, I think Jay Z, this is the album that... solidifies him, I think, as a pop artist in my mind.

But obviously he would go on to make Blueprint 3 is not my favorite, but he had run this town and all of these. Wash the throne. To me, Blueprint is actually the end of 1JZ era and the beginning of kind of his mogul, pop star. I am the Michael Jordan of hip-hop moment. Right. Yeah. Are you, do you have a 9-11 story? I'm just curious to know you're, were you too young to remember it? No, I was actually like, uh, I was in,

I want to say second or third grade. And I remember not knowing what was going on, but them all having us like line up in school. And then like slowly, but surely like parents just started showing up and taking their kids out, taking their kids out that when I got to my grandparents, uh, house just, it was on loop. Yeah. The news every. And I just like, I knew something bad And it happened when like, why do we just keep watching the same building like, falling, whatever? What about you? Because you were 10 years older than me. Yeah, I was, I think I was 18 at the time. I got a call. I was sleeping and I got a call from my aunt who I don't talk to really, you know, very infrequently. And she was just freaking out.

She was like, it's the end of the world. They're hitting the Pentagon. Like she was like, I mean, rightfully so. She was just freaked the fuck out. And I just remember going to work. I worked at to Togos at the time. I just remember going to work. I just remember going to work. It's just like no one. Togos? Togos, yeah. What's that? You don't know?

Togos a sandwich? They do sandwiches? No? Justin, do you know Togos? I've never heard of Togos. Wait, right? What? Is this a Northern California thing?

Yeah, is this a Northern California thing? Like what is it like a subway? Yeah. Like a Jersey Mikes? Yeah. You guys don't have Togos? No. Okay.

You were slinging sandwiches? What type of sandwiches? They slinging at Togos? You want some pastrami. I got you. You want some turkey avocado number 24. You still. I know, I know all the number number number number.

number still. What was your favorite number? 24. 24? Yeah, avocado turkey. Yeah. And then the hack, my teenage self hack was you crumple up the nacho cheese Doritos and you crumple them up in the sandwich as the cheese. You get the crunch of the anyways. But Justin, you have a 9-11 story, right? Well, yeah, yes. I just wanted to talk about, I mentioned before that I wanted to talk about 9-11 as it relates to J-Z. Cole, did you have the record on 9-11? No. Okay. There was this tape and CD store up the street for me that sold everything like the night before it came out. So on September 10th, 2001, I went, I grabbed a copy. Obviously, everything happens that day. I'm living in Providence, Rhode Island at this time. I run into a friend of mine downtown. He's like, you give me a ride home. And he was one of the smartest dudes I knew. He was like, he was in school. He went to Fordham, I think. and he was going for international affairs. And he's telling me who Ben Laden is

and he's breaking all this down. And then all of a sudden he stops and goes, you got that blueprint. Oh my God. And I said, yeah, he goes, you put on the takeover. And I learned who Osama bin Laden was. And then the next,

basically the next words out of my friend's mouth were put on the takeover. That's crazy. Well, also, Justin, while we have you, the thing I want to talk about before we kind of get into the album is that, Jay-Z was at such an interesting time in his career

because as a kid, I remember Izzo. Like, I remember being a kid watching like MTV and BT and being like, oh, what's the sample did that thing as a kid that just kind of like almost electrocutes you out of your seat. And I'd heard Jay-Z before. I'd watch other Jay-Z videos. And like my cousins were super in the hove. but Izo was actually like the first moment where it like clicked for you.

I was like, why do I like this song? Like what is it about that? But this was talking about that inflection point for Jay-Z. Justin, do you remember kind of where Jay-Z was at in his career? Because I remember the story of him stabbing Oon for allegedly leaking the tape and blah, blah, blah. Right, right. Kind of like destroying is potentially destroying what we would know Jay-Z's career.

So what do you remember of Jay Z around that time? This album was kind of a coronation, right? Like this was, or it was at least that's the way he presented it. Because you got to remember this was post-biggy, post-Tupac. Hip-hop was getting a little, like a lot of the southern rap was really starting to blow up. But there was kind of this power void at the top. You had people like DMX. You had Knauz very, you know, obviously that plays a big part of the story about the blueprint.

But Jay had like been kind of just ascending up and up the ladder. And he probably, he had had bigger hits than Izzo, like Big Pimpin predates this. Some of those Swiss beats tracks predate this, like Money Cash O's. He had some massive songs. But this album in particular, I always felt was him trying to. to thread the needle between, or thread a needle of massive commercial success, critical success,

and asserting his dominance over the rap game. And I always felt that this album was the album that he engineered to be, you know, I said this about the Kanye record that we discussed last episode, where this was engineered to be one of the best albums ever. I thought this was Jay's version of doing that. And, you know, I think in a lot of ways, at the time, it felt very successful. Like,

this was, this was the moment where he kind of did have all those things. People who hadn't necessarily paid Jay-Z the critical respect that, you know, he was probably owed, really paid attention. And it had a hit like Izzo. It did have that commercial success at the same time. I mean, that is a perfect segue. Can I get into some of the categories because Izzo? You're trying to sneak out of trivia? Oh, shit. I forgot. We have trivia. Dog. Trivia. Just to recap what album trivia is. This is where you and I try to stump each other with little known facts about the album. Every correct answer is one point. And whoever has the most total points at the end of the season wins a mystery prize selected by producer Justin. All right. So last episode,

you beat me. I was, I had zero points. You got one point. I did. I actually was surprised. I thought you would know everything about my beautiful dark twisted fantasy, but I picked out some ones that were a little tricky. Yeah, they're good. Okay, so I got two questions for you. What song features backing vocals by Slick, Biz Marquis, Q-Tip, and according to a 2009 interview with Jay-Z, an uncredited Michael Jackson feature. You can't look at your notes. Do this? Get him with. notes. What are you doing? Whoa. I can, whoa, these are my notes for this episode and I literally have this written down here. Justin, is this is this is co-sure? This is not kosher. This is not this is, it's girls, girls,

girls. I literally was about to, I had, this was going to be part of the things I was going to reveal to you. So it's girls, that one was so easy. It's not, it's actually technically incorrect. Girls, Girls, Girls, Girls, Part two, Charles. All right. Justin, that is not fair. That is not. Come on. I don't think you get a point. I definitely get a point. Justin, does he get a point? Well, okay, wait a minute. So I actually need some clarification on this. Girls, Girls, Girls, Part 2 also has Slick Rick Bismarkey.

That's what I read. Because they're on part one. Michael Jackson is the allegedly the uncredited vocal appearance on part two, on the remix. Yeah. Do you, so I had to do it. I isolated the vocals of Girls, Girls, Girls, Girls, Part 2. Do you want to hear Michael Jackson's voice? Yes. My game just be won.

Just trying to give him a half point. Because I would love to teach you. What? Yeah. This is why I love doing this. That's so sick. All right. Justin, does he get a point?

Final answer. We're going to give him a half point. Okay. Let's go half point. Question number two. Kanye said the beat for Heart of the Six. was originally tended for another big artist and was supposed to feature a big singer on the chorus, who was the original artist it was intended for, and who was the singer?

Singer is R. Kelly. Crazy, but yep, correct? Yes. But if you go back to the time, because I think Fiesta had come out before. I can't remember. Maybe fact check me, but I'm almost positive. Like, R. Kelly was smoking at that time. Obviously, R. Kelly is a fucking monster.

we do do not condone anything Arkelly is done but him and Jay worked very closely together yeah um so R Kelly fuck and I have can I get two guesses yeah for rapper yeah

I want to say heart of this city I want to say DMX yes what the hell Charles wow Jesus Christ man you could only because you want to know which ones I had in contention okay DMX

Okay. Beanie. Okay. And then there was one other that I, that I'm blanking on. But DMX and if it wasn't DMX it was going to be, Beanie was going to be the other one. Okay. Nice job, Charles. Yeah.

I'm getting my ass kicked. Woo! Here's a thing. I don't think you're going to get either of mine. That's how, that's how. You do make yours like ridiculously hard on me. I try to cut you some slack. Like, what's realistic?

Like, not because you must you dissect. I know. We missed her. No, hell no. But are we ready to get into breaking this album down? Yeah, let's do it. Main categories, we have five. We have biggest song, best song, worst song, best moment, and I forgot.

Best deep cut. Hell yes. So for biggest song, I thought that it was going to be easy. It was just going to be Izzo, straight, no debate. But you texting me earlier this morning and you're like, well, what about Renegade? And you revealed to me that Renegade actually has more streams on Spotify than Izzo does. Yeah, like by a substantial margin too. So.

But is that just the M&M streaming effect is kind of a thing. I think it is. Yeah. Because in my mind, Izzo's like the obvious hit. Like that's when I think of the blueprint, I think of that song first. So I'm going to explain which I'm going to break down both and then I'm going to explain why I'm which one I'm going with. So iso produced by Kanye carried by sample of the Jackson's fives. I want you back.

what I love actually about Izzo is that when we were talking about it, I think it was a song that because it's so tied to my childhood being in second or third grade when I was hearing it, over the years I've kind of, it's become lessened in my mind. Not that it's a good song, but almost that it's like I take it for granted. It's pop. It's pop. Yeah. But then when I went back and listened to the second verse I'd realize, I'm like, oh. One of the most iconic lines, of all time. I'm just going to wrap the whole thing because I just want to, maybe we can break it down together because it was like, I didn't realize how much I had loved and internalized the second verse when he goes, I do this for my culture to let him know what a nigger look like when a nigger in a rosa, show him how to move in a room full of vultures, industry shady, it needs to be taken over. Label owners hate me. I'm raising the status quo up.

I'm overcharging niggas for what they did to the cult crush. Pay us like you owe us for all the years that you hold us. We can talk, but money talks or talk more bucks. That second to the last line, pay us like you owe us for all the years that you hoed us is fucking perfect. It's per even the lot like I'm overcharged niggas for what they did to the coal crush. It is just when we talk about what makes Jay one of the best rappers ever. I think it's the economy of the lines. I think it's if you think about how he's rapping on this.

nothing that he's saying is just like, oh my God, he's wowing me with just like wizardry or whatever. But when you focus down, especially on where Jay-Z was at in his career, I do think that this was the time where Jay-Z remembers the beginning of hip-hop. And now he's right there at its ascendance, you know? This is someone who's going to go on to lead Def Jam to become someone who can actually have more control over his career and over... the careers of rappers and Rihanna and Kanye or whatever. And this line to me is actually like a skeleton key friend.

I know I always say that on different episodes in terms of just like what was a moment for a rapper or a singer where you could see like what was that coming. I think that this verse especially kind of points to the businessman era of Jay's career of just like, oh, I see what happened to all of the people I grew up listening to in hip hop. That's not happening to me. Right. Why do you like I feel like this was a verse you all. also were just like on real estate.

Oh shit. Yeah, because you do take the song for granted and it does feel so commercial appealing that you take some of these lyrics for granted especially. So I was, I mean, I highlighted stuff from like all three verses. I forgot about how great

just the writing is. It's not double entendres or anything, but on verse three, he paints this portrait of his neighborhood. I was raised on the projects, roaches and rats, smokers out back, selling their mama sofa, lookouts on the corner,

focused on the Ave, ladies in the window, focused on the kinfolk, me under a lamp post, why I got my hands closed, cracks in my palm, watching the long arm of the law. Like, he's painting a portrait,

like I can visualize all these images, and you get one image for every line and it's just like this mosaic of his upbringing. And just that one light, how, why I got my hand closed, like weird question,

cracks in my palm, watching the long arm of the law. Or even that's like poetic. That's brilliant. Or even the line like the poetry of I've seen hoop dreams deflate like a true fiend's weight is just to me of like the two rappers that you can really think of in terms of like around this time where it's like just poetry. I remember one of my cousins having the, uh, the pock book.

One of the, I think it was called like the rose that grew out of concrete or whatever. And I remember that was the first time where I was like, why are my cousins? reading a book about like rap lyrics and this to me that that third verse to me reads like a poem in terms of like the way he's describing his come up the way it felt what it means to be a drug dealer a lot of his drug dealing bars sometimes are very flashy um the best this is that to me this is more so like no i'm painting you a visual picture of what it feels like growing up in marcy projects at this time going down to maryland all this shit it's oh i love this You said you didn't like the Kanye, the sample, the beat?

No, no, no, no. I like the sample. Okay. It's more so, all right. I'm going to bring in Justin. Justin, am I crazy for saying that like sometimes, especially in hip-hop circles, people ding Kanye for how obvious the songs that he decides to pick are? I think a couple of things that aren't being considered when you're discussing the production

of the song and how obvious the sample is. he did chop it up. It wasn't a straight loop. Okay, I recreated the sample if you guys want me to just play, but continue. But the other thing is, this was not a time when soul samples were really prevalent. Kanye and Just Blaze in this album really brought that back to the mainstream. And this was a single. So, of course, like, it makes sense that one of the most famous, soul and R&B songs of the 20th century is going to get flipped for what the big single was on it.

A lot of the rest of the stuff on this record is a lot more obscure. Like Bobby Bird, who gets flipped for heart of the city, that's a lot more obscure. Yeah. Right? Like, I actually, you know, I was 18, 19 when the song dropped. It took me a couple listens to clock that that was actually a Jackson 5 sample. That's what I'm saying. Like, I don't hear Jackson 5 when I hear the sample.

So you hear the little like, ooh. Like, at the end of the loop, at the end of the, you know, the chopped loop. But until then, like, it doesn't immediately clock that that's, you hear it. Once you realize it, you can't unhear it. But at first, it's pretty, it's chopped up pretty well. So here's the original. So when you hear it like that, it's pretty obvious, right? So what's interesting is that he slows it down.

Connie is known for the chipmunk soul speeding things up. But in this case, he slows it down. So still there. But here's the chops. It's super simple, but it really transforms the beat. So here's chop number one. That little piece. Chop number two is this.

He repeats it. So then here's the full thing. Add some drums. So sick. It's so sick. I take it back. This is amazing. I take it back.

Because you only get two chords. So it's like you don't hear the whole turnaround. So that's why it's. It's not obviously the Jackson 5 because you're only getting two chords. You don't hear the whole turnaround. That's so iconic from the original song. So it's simple, but like a lot of Kanye's early production where he just has an ear like no one else.

He can transform stuff in a way that just no one else was hearing. This is a great example. And his breakout song as a producer. So the other song, Renegade, produced by Eminem, Luis Redo, originally. This track was bad meets evil, the group that Eminem had with frequent collaborator Royce the 5'9. Now, Renegade, we talked before this and we were like, let's not burn tape. But this song to me is infamous because for years and years and years, we were like, M got J, M got J, M got J, M got J.

On re-listened in 2025, I don't think that's true. Like, as a kid, I remember being mesmerized by Eminem's verses and very, very impressed. in a way where I was just like, no, this song is actually 50-50. I actually don't think either artists did that much better than the other. Like, when you were back then, 2001, who did you like on this song more? Now, who do you think? Like, what is your- I liked M for sure.

Like 100% I liked M. Returning to it now, it's clear that they're both, I think, it's pretty equal. I think Eminem clearly has home field advantage on this song, though. This is an Eminem song that just got dropped on the blueprint for whatever reason. It sounds totally different from the album. It's mixed totally different. So hearing Jay on that verse specifically, it doesn't, I mean, it's fine. He's rapping his ass off.

Like his performance is great. I just don't think the beat is something he would have normally picked. It was an Eminem song that existed that had a Royce beat or a Royce verse on it. And he kind of just, I don't know what the story was of Eminem giving it to him for his own album. So I actually have that. Oh, you do. Okay. Eminem originally didn't want to give Jay Renegade.

Like he wanted to give him another song, but he knew that Jay Z was rushing to get this done. Okay. Obviously, like, this was an album that was created in a very short amount of time. And I believe Royce's label didn't want him to have two M&M features. So he's just like, yo, let me just send this to Jay. And honestly, for the audience, it might be interesting if we play them the original. because it's leaked. Okay.

We can play them a little bit of what Roy sounded like on it. Okay. Yo, it's several different levels to picking up shovels and dumping you and digits on the sea level front

and you can witness. Let me refresh you, niggas tell you my position in this speed, leave you under Venice. That's not bad, but... No, it's not bad, but you can tell that

obviously Royce Eminem came up together where it's like, Jay Z's not necessarily, he's different enough from Eminem where there's a nice dichotomy. Where with Royce, I'm just like, you guys are so stylistically similar.

Yeah. Yeah, whenever, I mean, Em has a great verse on it. I don't want to undermine his, what he does is very effective. There's the, technically it's pretty brilliant with all the internal rhymes.

And I mean, the second verse, the rude ludicrous, ludicrous lyrics or whatever the fucking says. It's like literally every syllable rhymes in that verse. It's pretty insane. That's like, I'm like, this does this.

This does the root. Renegade. I hate the hook. I don't like the hook. The hook is terrible. They have no chem. The back to, like for me, the back and forth of the... They don't have chemistry. They don't have chemistry. It's, it feels very forced to me. I think they could have left it off. Now, I think we have to go with Izzo because when I looked up the certifications, Izzo is platinum. Surprisingly, Renegade is only gold. Okay. Cheap for them. Plus, if they were short with cheese, I will work with them. Yeah, so I think it has to be, even though streaming-wise, to your point, Eminem streams like a monster.

Right. I still hear Izzo out. Yeah. It's not like I've ever, I don't know if I've ever heard Renegade in the last, like, 10 years playing out of a car. No, yeah. It's the best, to me, it's a better song, clearly. So, best song, this is a top five J song to me.

Oh, I'm so curious. This is everything I love about Ho. Hove, I think easily the best song in this is, Heart of the City, ain't no love produced by Kanye West. Same pick. Hard of the city, best song for me. Young, it's ice-grilling me. Oh, you're not feeling me fine.

It costs you nothing. Pay me no mind. Look, I'm on my grind cousin. Ain't got time for front. Sensitive thugs. Y'all need hugs. All right. Is this crazy, Justin?

No, I think that there were two choices here, but this is probably the one that edges out the other one. Okay, I always thought I was going to be alone on this. Why to you is Heart of the City easily the best song in this album? I mean, a lot of it's the production. Yeah. The chemistry him and Connie had is so

clear. Kanye has this great quote about the making of it. This is early Kanye, super hungry Kanye. Jay Z's his icon and he's finally made it to baseline with him. And he said this about the creation of the song. He said, for Heart of the City,

Jay came up with what he wanted to say in his head as usual. In the studio, the Fiesta Remix by R. Kelly music video came on the TV. And Jay walked into the booth, started recording, finished the entire song all the way to the outro, and came back into the studio, and the Fiesta music video was still playing. So if you believe the story,

he essentially recorded it in one take in the time that the same music video was playing when he walked into the booth and when he walked out, it was that quick, which is like, I don't know if I, Do you believe that? All right.

So this is a perfect time where we could talk about the myth of hove. Right. Where I think Jay-Z and the legends of how we don't write

anything down, it's all off the top, I was in the studio, he finished this in two minutes. A has influenced the worst, the worst inclinations for rappers. It's like you were not hove. Yeah.

Like there's, there's Jay, there's Wayne, and the rest of you need to write your fucking thing. The lore is so great, though. It's great, but sometimes I'm like, alright, this nigga didn't finish this in three, man. Like, you know, I'm like, this is, this is like,

this song is five minutes. Like, you didn't finish this in three? Do you actually believe, oh, finish this? Not, maybe not in the time that, like, the same music video was playing, but I can, I can see him. I mean, by all accounts, he was riding super fast. This is someone just at the peak of their powers, I feel like, where they're just so prolific.

Things are just spilling out of them. Artists have these periods. I feel like this is that this is that J period where he's just, he can't do no wrong. He's making hit after hit, just verses are just spilling out of him. So I believe it. I love this song. But yeah, a lot of it is just like the production, the chemistry with Kanye, the framework that you point out on a song that he doesn't have a hook on, you know, the samples carrying the hook. He's really good at making these microhooks where he's, that framework of the beginning of each verse,

kind of gives it this secondary hook and a structure that's, I think, super important to a song like this. It has some great, I mean, again, when we talked about the clips album, I was talking like, just every single line, you can just, I was surprised with like,

there's not a lot of like triple entendres that I found, but to your point, just the writing is so great throughout and it's so not, like, part of the reason why I believe that he's writing so fast, because there's a fluidity to the lyricism, that just feels like it's someone who has,

that rapping is now second nature to them, where they don't have to sit there and think about every little line. It's just kind of flowing out of them as the, once they find the cadence and the flow of the song. Some of my favorite lines is, I forgot what verses is from, but iconic line, I'm not looking at you dudes.

I'm looking past you. I thought I told you characters, I'm not a rapper. Can I live? I told you, 96, that I came to handle this shit and I did. Handle my big. biz. I scramble like Randall with his.

Cunningham, but the only thing running is Numbersfam. Jickett held you down six Summers Dan. So you get like the Cunningham, Numbers fam, Summersdam, Handle My Biz, Randall with it, like all these. Can I give you the closing of the first verse? Because it's so simple. Like it's nothing special, but I love when he goes, um, I don't want much. Fuck, I drove every car. Some nice cook food, some nice glue drops. Bird ass diggers. I don't mean a ruffle y'all. I know you waiting in the wing, but I'm doing my thing with love. It's like the bird, the ruffle of the feathers, waiting in the wing. It's so simple that if you're just like, you're just listening to you're

like, oh, that's not that, that's not that interesting or special. But then you like read the lyrics and you're like, oh shit. It's just great writing. It's just great writing. All right, worst song, we don't have to spend that much time on it. It's easy. It's girls, girls, girls, girls. when I come off toast I love girls Sample's Tom Brooks a 1974 song There's nothing in this world

That can stop me From loving you I'm just going to read you some lyrics from this And then we can get back Are you sure you want to do that? Okay I got this Indian squad

The day that I met her Asked her what tribes you with Red Dot or Feather She said All you need to know is I'm not a ho And to get with me You better be Chief Lossido You know what's funny

Chief Lada Do is fucking crazy Well, also the Nadaho, Navajo. Crazy. That's crazy. If this song wasn't what it's about, if this song, if this wasn't what he was doing on the song called. Well, I'm also saying that, like, that could have been in the running for a dissectable moment.

Right, right, yeah. I'm not touching that. No, no, please don't. For the sake of this show, please don't. Ask her what tribe she with red dot or feathers crazy. It's the most egregious one, but the whole thing's problematic. Whoa, I got one more. Got this Chinese chick, had to leave her quick.

Because she kept bootleg in my shit, man. I got this African chick with Eddie Murphy on her skull. She like, Jigam Ben, why you treat me like animal? I'm like, excuse me, Miss Foofoo when I met your ass. You was dead, broken, naked, and now you want half. Like I said, I don't, we do not have to spend that much time on girls, girls, girls. It was a hit. I remember hearing it.

It's crazy that it was a hit. It was a different. Yeah, that's a thing. It's like, you can't get on too much. Like, this was, this was culturally accepted.

It wasn't just Jay Z being an asshole. This was a single. We all accepted it. I didn't find it problematic at the time. We look back now and it's like, clearly I don't think he would stand by it. No. And what I want to ask is,

Girls, girls, girls was easily, easily, easily the worst song. Yeah. It's just aged terribly. And I don't even know

I can't remember the last time Hove probably performed this live. Were there any other songs to you that were in contention for worse? Because Justin acted like I was crazy when I said this yesterday. Ola Ovito, I've always hated.

I've always thought it just stinks. I like that song. Really? I do like that song. It's fun. The chorus is kind of whatever. The chorus, it's the chorus. Yeah. The verses I'm fine with it.

Ola Oito. Just. Terrible. Trying to reach too far for the anthem. There's so many like anthem hoves. Yeah. Hooks on this album. It's crazy.

I actually think there is one song that is actually worse than girls, girls, girls as a song. Like, let's take how inappropriate girls, girls, girls is, especially in 2025 out of this. I already know which one you're picking. The trackmaster song that I can't say the title of. Jiggin' that nigger, it was in contention. I will say going from girl, like the rulers back takeover. Izzo is such an amazing run. And then to follow that with girls, girls, girls and jigger that niggin that niggie is

it's a weak part. It's, to me, the thing about that song that kills me is Jay, it was the obvious, like, trying to concoct a radio hit. Yeah. And this album did not need that in the way, like, volume one needed that. Like, I think volume one might actually be my favorite J record, but it has songs like, I know what girls like, it has songs like Sunshine. You understand the point he was at in his career

where he needed songs like that. He didn't need that on this record. And not only did he not need that and he did it anyways, but the song sucks and it wasn't even a single. Like he made the song with the trackmasters that should have been a club record that should have been a hit and it fell flat.

I'm gonna be honest, I kind of like the song. What? I don't like the song. chorus, but come on the beat like da, da, da, da, da, come on. I'm going to deep cut. Okay. Because this. I'm curious.

I wonder if we have the same one. Best beat on the album, I think. Okay. Potentially. Okay. You don't know by Just Blaze. Same pick? Really? Yeah.

This beat, like, I know heart of the city is a little bit more forward. Yeah, yeah. That's the one where it's like, it's just so undeniable. But if we, like, can we play a little bit of you don't know? That sample is between me and them. They're trying to get their ones. I'm trying to get them M's. One million, two million, three million, four.

And just five years, 40 million more. You are now looking at that. That sample is so. It's so good. And I love that there's no hook. One of my favorite parts, because there's so many hooks on this album. He was trying to balance toe the line between commercial success and, lyrical showcase.

This is a perfect no-hook, J-Z for me. Let the sample do the talking and just come back in and wrap. It's so good. It's probably my favorite song on the entire album. I just love like there's so many lines. It's said that we are prone to violence, but it's home sweet home where personality leaves cash and chrome meets chrome. The Coke prices up and down like his Wall Street homes.

It's just how can you not? I know. I do have a dissectable moment on this one. Yo, let's go. Okay. So, super clever. I don't know if it was obvious to everyone. It wasn't obvious to me, but then, okay, let me lay it out. So verse two, he says, they trying to get those ones. I'm trying to get

them M's. 1 million, 2 million, 3 million, 4. And just five years, 40 million more. You're now looking at the 40 million boy. Great, good stuff. But then calls back to it with verse 3. kicks off this motif with saying, and if someone would have told him that Hove would be selling clothing, not in this lifetime, wasn't in my right mind. So referencing Rock or Well, rare. Then he says,

I smarten up, open the market up, $1 million, $2 million, $3 million, $1 million, $80 million more. Now add that up with the one I said before, you are now looking at one smart black boy. So if you add up, $80 million from this, verse 3 with the previous $40 million from verse 2, you get a total of 120 million.

Why is that significant? Because this is what he says on the final verse, the final line of the final verse, he says, put me anywhere on God's green earth, I'll triple my worth. What is 40 times 3? 40 from the first reference times 3 is 120. So he tripled his worth calling back to the line from sick.

incredible so good it's wise the goat so sick it's why he's the goat it's so good and just to call it out since we're here i sell ice in the winter i sell fire in hell i'm a hustler baby i sell water to a whale homophone with whale and a well it's so i love there was no like if i was like if i don't get to talking about you don't know every single time like i remember going to see j on tour and i'm almost positive he played this just because the beat is just like, rattles you. Right. I'm actually surprised that we both were agreeing so much.

I know. Last episode, same thing. All right. Best moment. This is where we talk about takeover. What I nominated is the 2001 summer jam performance, okay? Of course. Because he brings out Michael Jackson, remember it.

Insane. Everybody was going bonkers. He premieres takeover. And if anybody wants to know where we get the classic put him on the summer jam screen, this is where it happens, because during this beef, he's beefing with Prodigy,

and then on the screen, he puts a photo of Prodigy performing at his grandmother's dance recital. To me, still takeover is my favorite song from the beef. Yeah. Even though Ether is the one that obviously won Nas the Battle, I think Takeover easily won Jay-Z the War. Like, going back over this,

Well, Nas doesn't get the worst bars in this. Prodigy is the one who gets like fucking dismantled. But my favorite lyrics from this are like Jay Z being like, Hey, yo, Nas, I know you not talking. Nigel, you make a classic. Every five years. I love Takeover. Do you think that this is the best song from The Beef?

It's close. I think I actually might prefer Ether. Returning to Takeover, it kind of reminded me like do you think strategic because people the general consensus is that ether was like

the winning song won the moment not the battle correct me if I got any of this wrong Justin but do you think part of that reason is because like Drake's family matters he was shooting at more than one person

where Nas just got to focus just on Jay because returning to takeover one it's like the first two verses are for Prodigy then he gets Nas gets the 36 bar, 38 bar verse. And then there's, I always forget about there's a fourth verse, which just shouldn't be there. Yes.

It's like, is it too clunky? As part of like why Ether 1 was because it's just more concise, just structurally and just aiming at one target. I don't know. Justin, would you have any thoughts on this? I think it just simply comes down to the third verse of Ether is just savage. My take on this is that Ether is the better discrack by a hair.

where this is the more enjoyable song to listen to. The beat on Ether is, like, you know, it's iconic, but like... It's trash. It's not, yeah. Part of it is, like, why I like Ether, though, is because you can hear his articulation of his words are way clearer than on Takeover, which has a more bigger theatrical production. So some of the bars feel more, like, hit you viscerally and kind of vicious because they're so articulated where, I don't know, it's like, a lot of the non-hyterical.

bars are like have that your first tech I'm like all right cool like it's just like it's not as hard hitting yeah and I think the other thing that we're probably circling is that when I was reading about just the making of this album I think guruette said I've never seen hove mad he's so laid back even when he was rapping takeover you hear it on take he's not mad he's not angry there's not that much there is a level of dissection where it's like he's playing the cool guy which is like in between sending shots at prodigy and not like everybody getting their own little section him kind of being laid back and cool about it like almost j's always done this i'm almost too cool to even be mentioned yeah it's like he's like laughing where naz is like i'm fucking going

to speak to your soul you know there's like there so but even just returning to this beef not to make this about drake and conier but just the evolution of where we are where we've landed with beef where we're in everything seems so tame in takeover and ether compared to what happened with Drake and Kendrick in terms of like I don't know the salacious really I mean here's the thing jzy fucking splusion over over car seats having to apologize like his mom forcing him to apologize on the radio like like you know what I mean like even right now because it's hip hop history, I feel like we almost underrate how like the insanity of Jay-Z putting up a photo of prodigy dressed as Michael Jackson on the summer jam screen.

You know what I mean? Like, I think it seems cute now in a way where I'm just like, what was Drake and Meek Mill really about? What was Drake? Like, push a tea, obviously. Revealing that you're hiding a child is the craziest thing that's ever happened. But even like the Drake and Kendrick beef, even though Kenner. Dendrick dismantled Drake to such an extent.

What really, like, what was actually discovered in it? Right. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? There was a 10-set discovery, but none of it really, it was all kind of TMZ rumors. Push-a-T revealing that, push-a-tee revealing that Drake had a child, summer jam screen, everything happened with Kendrick and Drake. Just because you don't have that final, like, oh, I, I revealed. something like, for example, Rick Ross being a correctional officer, that's something where it's

just like forever, we have to kind of be like, what the, how did you even find this out? Right, right. Yeah. Just a reminder, though, Kendrick did perform not like us at the Super Bowl. And look directly into the camera and said, hey, Drake. Anyways, let's- That is true. And probably 130 million people.

So, anyways, let's not make this about Drake. Was there, were there any, finally, before I wrap up, were there any other best moments that could have been in contention besides the summer jam takeover? That one was such a clear thing that I didn't actually think through anything else. Justin, is anything else come to mind? I mean, the 9-11 thing is always just kind of crazy. Yeah. It's different than this. I got to be honest, though, saying best moment 9-11 is kind of a tough.

Of course, of course. I think it's very clearly takeover. We running this rap shit. Am easy. We run in this rap shit. The broad street bully. We run in this rap shit. It's zipped up in plastic when it happens that's a freak weight.

We run in this rap. Yeah. Well, yo, that's the blueprint. Now we're going to go for a little break. And when we get back, it's time to make lemons. It's lemonade. All right. All right, Cole.

We're back. Lemonade. Tell me everything. Why did you pick this album? you obviously did a season of dissect on it. Why this Beyonce album? Why this moment in music? Yeah, let me preface with just some basic album effects.

And then I think we have to, just like last episode with the VMAs and Twisted Fantasy, we're going to have to take that elevator ride for a little bit. But first, release date, Lemonade, April 23rd, 2016. It sells 653,000 copies in its first week, which is awesome and ridiculous. Official singles are formation, sorry, hold up, freedom, and all night. It receives widespread critical acclaim from day one, nominated for nine Grammys, only two wins. It was named the greatest album of the 2010s by the Associated Press,

Best Album of the 21st Century by Rolling Stone. It was famously surprised released after an hour-long film on HBO, and then Lemonade comes out directly after the premiere of this beautiful film that we'll talk about. And so that was a cultural moment in itself. I want to talk to you about your memories of the surprise release in the film. But again, we got to go back to that infamous elevator ride between Solange, Beyonce's sister, Beyonce and Jay-Z at the MetGala in 2014.

The video gets leaked May of 2014 and essentially all hell breaks loose online. This is like the prime time, like the prime era of Twitter, I feel like. And so, like, Twitter streams were just, as you alluded to earlier, this was the first kind of chink in the armor, the veneer of Jay-Z and Beyonce starting to kind of crack before our eyes. Do you remember this incident in real time? Do you remember it coming out and leaking? I remember the incident. I remember laughing hysterically. I thought it was the funniest thing ever. It was, if I'm, this is my hot take. You know, if you're Mr. Dissect, I'm miss their hot take. I think the cheating scandal, the Solange elevator kick, all of it gave Jay-Z and Beyonce another 15 years of relevance.

If I'm going to be on, like, not, like, I'm not even dissing them. I'm saying, like, up till this point, Beyonce had already been anointed. I am the biggest Destiny's Child fan ever. You never want to see me with a drink of my hand when Destiny's Child comes on, okay? Like, I can kill some karaoke. I love me some Beyonce. But what I would say about her solo career is that I don't know first solo career ever had an arc. She was always making huge, big songs.

But the knock that you could say about her is, A, I don't know if she's that great of an album artist. And B, I don't know if she ever had like a narrative album to kind of like totally kind of show all of her strengths as an artist. And if you think about Lemonade, if you think about the Carter's, if you think about 444, they got a lot of music. and a lot of attention out of untangling this web. Like, I'll ask you this. Do you think Lemonade ever gets released or made without it becoming such a public, a public affair? Yeah, that's a really interesting question.

You would think, yeah, I don't know. Because they were almost like it forced her hand. I guess she could have went on and pretended nothing happened. And they released a joint statement. and a couple weeks after the incident, kind of try to brush it under the rug. But, yeah, it's an interesting question. I don't know.

Obviously, we can't know for sure, but I don't think it would have hit. It wouldn't have been a cultural moment as it was, as crazy of lemonade dropping, hearing Becky with the good hair, and that becoming such a moment. Like, I don't think it is what it is, clearly without this becoming public.

And to Beyonce's credit, what I love about lemonade is that she takes, essentially literally a TMZ gossip scandal and transforms it into a beautiful piece of artwork. You know, addressing the infidelity, not in just a betrayal and how could you do this to me and all the common justified and common feelings, but it was like, no, let me, let me one, use my platform to make this more than just my personal story and let me try to link it to not only just like just relationships in general specifically black relationships and then tying like tying it to historical cultural like essentially going like literally the HBO film is

filmed in Louisiana on former slave plantations and she's drawing connections between black American trauma experience in slavery and how very much like Mr. Morrell how that kind evolved and still affects black relationships. And so using her own hurt and transforming that to make this grand statement about her identity and her culture and her people, like, just like she didn't have to do that. And she did and she executed it perfectly. Like there's a lot of like short films that are kind of ancillary content to albums now. Lemonade is a legit film for people that it's a tragedy that you can't just go stream it somewhere. It's kind of hard to find now. now, but I studied that. I've watched that thing like probably over 30 times doing my season

I dissect on it. That is a legit piece of film. That is, and what I love about Lemonade is how all the ancillary elements interact with each other and become like this larger piece of art that transcends just the album itself, you know? What I compared it to in the dissect season was this concept we talked about in classical music is. is an idea called Gesamtzgundberg, which is a German word for an all-encompassing, something that Ricard Wagner made famous with his operas. Ironically, we talked about him last episode.

But essentially, it's a grand vision of art where the pieces like dance, music, wardrobe, storytelling, poetry, all combine into this larger piece of art where all the elements interact with each other enhance the overall piece of art. And that's what Lemonade is. You know, when you study it with the film, with the music videos, with the live performances, and the music, it creates this world that you explore and tells a really beautiful, powerful story. And this to me is like Beyonce stepping into her, what we now consider Beyonce, to your point, where she was this kind of singles hitmaker, not quite an album artist, to now being one of the best album artists that we've ever had.

in this century so far. Can I also pitch you on this? I think hearing you talk, I, what I don't think we give Beyonce enough credit for is that like this is like an auteur moment. Yeah, where I don't, especially when we talk about like black pop music, whether it's like, like someone for contemporaries, whether it's a brandy or an Ashanti, Keisha Cole,

women who are talented. I grew up on their music and I love R&B to such an extent. And we didn't talk about artists like that. Usually, also like pop stars, like Christina Aguilera, Brittany Spears. When we talk about their music, a lot of times we give credit to the lyricist. We give credit to the producers. We give credit to everybody except the woman who actually creates it. And I think after Lemonade, what you start to see is you start to see.

We start talking about Beyonce as a black woman, as a creator, as an art tour different. We start talking about Taylor Swift differently. It's not just that they're talented singers. It's not just that they're talented entertainers. We start talking about them in the same way that we talk about Bob Dylan or the Rolling Stones of the Beatles. We start thinking of, and I think that's also, I have to give credit to all the collaborators that she worked with, whether it was Jack White or Ezra or whatever. Everybody walked away from this saying the same thing, which is like, no, no, no, no, she's the architect. She is in the studio being like, no, no, do it like this.

I envision it this way. have everything from the art or whatever, we go from thinking of Beyonce as a tool being used by a bunch of other people to her being like, no, no, no, no, she's always been the composer. She's front and center to the director of this. Yeah, I mean, it's very Kanye-esque.

We don't really talk about her like that. I feel like even enough now because we give Kanye a lot of credit for being this master curator, master orchestrator. Beyonce is doing the same thing at just a high of a level that Kanye was at his peak of his powers. And I think Lemonade's the start of that. And we see the evolution of this Artur moment in a project like the Renaissance series, which is now, I feel like taking a lot of elements that we actually hear in Lemonade,

which is this really diverse palette of sounds and genres that she's experimenting with. We have a rock song with Jack White. We have a country song in Daddy Lessons. We have an R&B song. We have ballads. She's doing everything on this album. It's like, and when you think about even like something that your, like, dissect is built on, when Destiny's Child came out, could you have, could any of us ever imagine that Beyonce would have become an artist where it's like, we're not just dissecting her albums now. We're dissecting her Coachella performance or Super Bowl performance. Exactly. Like she's, she, this album to me is instrumental in her teaching the audience like, no, anytime I create art, you need to dissect everything from the album art to the music video. to the actual music, to the dance routines, what we're wearing. And like, kudos to Beyonce, because I think it's black women and black art deserve that level of attention because it comes with that amount of detail.

Yeah. All right. You're better to move on to the album trivia? What do you got? I'm so scared now. I feel like I let the people down last episode. Let me. One of these I think you'll get.

Okay. And if these are too hard, Justin can jump in and be like Charles for next episode. Stop being a dickhead. All right. I'm going to throw you an easy lob. We've been talking about Solange, the elevator kick, how that is really everything that starts it off. So my first question is simple. Do you remember the name of the hotel while the elevator kick took place?

I do, I do. It's right there again. Can you just give me the slightest hint? Starts with an S. I don't think I'm going to get it. The standard high line in New York. Okay. All right.

Was that fair? Was that too hard? I get, no, I don't think so. I think that's fair. I think that's fair. Yeah, I think that's fair. All right, this one might be unfair. One of the best songs off Lemonade is hold up,

which Ezra Koning has said. said was partially inspired by a tweet he made about the Yeah Yeah's 2003 song Maps. If Holdup is about Jay-Z, which famous rock star inspired the lyrics to Maps? Oh, I have no idea. That's not even a Beyonce question. How? I think that's really, really fair. The song is about Karen O, frontwoman of the Ye'A, Yes, and her then-Boyfriend,

Angus Andrew, frontman of the Liars. okay there's a connection both about relationships musicians and relationship that's not fair this what I don't

that it I don't know Cole like we got to give him this one okay Charles you got to next time make it an

thing about the artist but here so here's the thing originally I was like well if I make this about the Ez or tweet that's too easy you did a whole season on this you know all that shit i got to go one layer but you forget this is like seven years ago now too i don't know all the trivia just memorized i spend all this time trying to impress my friends with i with stuff that

can be can stump mr dissect the liars frontman what are you talking about called the songs what's your favorite liars record charles do you have a favorite liar's record i didn't know the liars existing. Okay. So that's what I'm saying. And their best record is drums not dead. Okay. My bad.

All right. We'll move on. So let's get into the categories. Remember, we have five categories for each album. They're going to be pitted head to head at the end of the episode. Biggest song, best song, worst song, best decup, and best moment. Biggest song is pretty obvious. It's formation.

The coolest thing about formation, which I do like, it's not my favorite on the album. but what I like about it symbolically and artistically is that it was the first single, is the first thing we heard from Beyonce post-elevator incident, I think, right? And it was kind of a Trojan horse because formation to me does not represent Lemonade. It's not the representative song that would give someone to represent what Lemonade does. Formation to me could be on the self-titled album before this one. It's kind of still in that sonic territory for me. yet formation is

and it's also the last song on Lemonade which is indicative of Beyonce not trying to chase your typical hits with Lemonade and that's kind of this is the end of I mean Lemonade on she's not really going for those huge hits she's making proper album you know from start to finish

where the singles are secondary to the bigger picture and so I like the fact that there is a when you get to formation after experiencing the narrative of lemonade, it is really effective to me. Because you see this woman go through heart, heartbreak and all these stages of grief. And she earns the freedom. When you get to freedom, that freedom she feels in that song, it feels earned.

And so when she calls ladies into formation, and especially because she's encompassing not just herself, but all black women within lemonade, when she makes that direct call to ladies get information, it has. this whole depth behind that statement now, which again, you didn't quite feel it in the formation just as a lead single. So I also think it's like pretty interesting sonically where it's like it's a Mike Will made it beat, but also as like marching band elements. You hear some horns. You hear like some New Orleans kind of bounce music. And so it's kind of this amalgamation of sounds that is kind of what she's talking about in the song when she's saying, what's the line, my daddy Alabama, my mama, Louisiana, that Negro with that creel, you make a Texas

Bama, and she's kind of representing that amalgamation of identities and cultures and doing the same thing sonically. So Six inch, though, six inch or freedom are bigger? I don't... I think formation is clearly the biggest song.

Oh, I'm just asking. Yeah. I don't think six inch, I don't remember six inch being that big at all. Okay. Is formation the best song on Lemonade? I don't think so. I know what your best song is going to be. Do you?

Did you see my notes? I did not see your notes. Okay, what do you think? It's going to be freedom, right? It is freedom. It is freedom. How? How!

This song is fucking fantastic. You don't like this song? This is so funny. I guarantee, I'm going to let you get back, but can you actually guess what my best song is? Because this is the one you're going to be like, Charles, what? Is it? Is it daddy lessons? that was one of my worst songs.

Okay. Hold up. You've been singing Hold Up all morning. Oh, Hold Up is 1A. There's a 1A and 1B. You're not going to get this. It's one of my favorite bands. Oh, the Jack White song? Don't hurt you.

That song's so sick. I love you. I love me some white stripes. When I was a wrestler, that's what I used to like, I used to play their albums before I would go on the mat. When this album first came out, I thought the Jack White song was going to be terrible.

And I was like, oh, Jack Kway and Beyonce actually have like some chemistry. I know. Do you think the third Renaissance act is going to be rock? That's kind of the, I think it has to be. I would love it. I would love it. Wait, really quick. And then we will get back.

We will get back to freedom. Yeah. What, what collaborators would you want Beyonce to work with on a rock album? Jack, I would like her to Jack White is the obvious one. Keep James Blake away. That's also one of my least favorite song. Keep James Blake away from me. You don't like forward?

What? It's more so because I have a complicated relationship with James Blake. The sequence of Sandcastles, forward, freedom, I would put it up against any three-song sequence in the 21st century. I know that might be a wild statement. That is a really wild statement. In terms of like message, symbolism, narrative, impact, that that sequence kills me, like, kills me every single time. But anyway, this isn't about Jack White or rock music. This is about why you love Kendrick.

more so much. I'm not going to talk about Kendrick at all. What? I decided I'm not going to do that. If you want to hear my freedom verse breakdown, there's a bunch of cool numerology shit. I gave you that spiel in our first season of Last Long Standing. There's also a viral TikTok video on it. So go look at that. But I wanted to honor Beyonce without, because I would like this song without Kendrick. I think it would still be my favorite song. Beyonce's voice on this fucking record. Come on. It's the same as Don't Hurt Yourself. That's why I want the rock the rock album so much. When she gives that growly, when she goes for it, man, it's like, it is like one of the best, she has one of just the best voices that we've just ever heard.

I like the fact that this is a just blaze beat essentially that Kendrick wraps on. This is more of a rap. You usually give this to a rapper. Yet she, she makes, she fits in. It's like, speaks to her superpower of being able to her song like this, doing a song with Jack White, doing a song like Sam. Castles, doing a song with James Blake, she can just do anything. This song is earned, which again, it's very hard for me to separate this album from the story

that it tells and the sequence, the very intentional sequence, and the stages of grief. And so when you get to freedom, this is the liberating moment of the album, especially when you see it with the visuals, because right before this moment, when she performs freedom on a stage at a Louise in a Louisiana former slave plantation in front of a group of black women, including the mothers of Trayvon Martin, Eric Garner, and Michael Brown.

There's all this weight built up to this moment in the way that she has brung her entire community and her people's history to this moment. And then in the music video, if you go watch, she sings the first verse a cappella on that stage. And it's just, when you get to the moment,

it is just, it's the cathartic moment, the entire piece, it's the, it's that film, or it's the scene in the film, where the hero finally kind of transcends. And it's just such a powerful song, or powerful moment in the narrative. And I have a little, this is going to bring me to my dissectable moment, actually. And it's a music, it's a music related dissectable moment because this is one of the things that I've been trying to highlight about this album, which is all these little details from the music production to the visuals, to the wardrobes. to the locations of where they shot the film,

all kind of make this composite of this larger piece of artwork. And I think it's actually the samples that you hear in Freedom is indicative of her being this artur and using every single detail to enhance the storytelling in the message. So the main beat is by a psychedelic rock band from Puerto Rico. That's not one I want to highlight. I want to highlight two of the samples that are layered on top of that. The first of which, and these are both pulled from Alan Lomack's field recordings,

which are these famous field recordings that he did in the 50s and the 60s, a lot of in the American South. So the first sample that you hear layered on top of the Freedom Main Beat is from a black church in Mississippi. And you hear essentially a reverend, this sample right here. So you're hearing the actual, you know, she's bringing her history here, and we're hearing that this is a field recording of actual black church in the 60s, or in 1959,

and here's how it plays and layers on to freedom. So you hear those voices. So part of this explosive moment, this freedom that she's talking about is like a liberation of not just herself again, right? She's grounding it in history. The second sample might be even more powerful. So this is another field recording of a chain gang. So this is in Memphis, Tennessee.

And we hear this. So we're hearing the actual banging of the hammers. And then here's how it's flipped and layered in freedom. So it's just like symbolically and you're singing about freedom and you've incorporated this history into the entire project. like, man, that it's, it's not only works musically as a climax and we get her great belting crescendo voice, but we get these details like this that just for me, but my brain, how I experience music, man, that is like, it that's hard to talk. Also, it is, it speaks to what we've been saying, which is like, yo, Beyonce's like a producer.

Yeah. There's like, like, she's an artist, but she's a producer. She's to be able to hear the beat on that many levels. lyrically, the actual production, the samples, the thematics, and it all coming together to sound that good. Because I'm like, a lot of people, that would just be too much. It would be... Or it wouldn't be part of the beat. It would be like a quote-unquote skit or an interlude and like it'd be more forward-facing.

But the brilliance of lemonade is that you can just kind of put it on and enjoy it as just music. But if you want the layers, they're all... That's all I did. This week was very funny because I'm like, I remember. watching the video or the movie on HBO at the time and reading about all of the things that it was about. But for this exercise, I just put it on my car. And it did work surprisingly well just as a record that has really big, where I was like,

oh shit, like this still bangs. And I was like, almost weirdly, I think sometimes the myth of the album had changed my thinking of it being something that still works as a pop record. in a vacuum, which I loved. Right. Okay. What was your best song? Did you say?

Jack White or whole? Oh, right. Okay. Right. One A, one B. Worst song, I don't want to spend a lot of time. This was actually really hard for me. There's not an obvious worst song to me on this.

I mean, this is a very tight album. Every song I think is of quality. If I was forced to choose, it's six inch featuring the weekend. Oh, we have the same one. The weekend is like a sort of, I like the weekend. I like some weekend records. Do not get at. Oh, why is the weekend?

on this record. It's a, yeah, it's, it's the one feature that does feel a little bit out of place. It feels a little bit reachy where it's like, Kendrick Lamar to me makes sense. Yeah. Jack White to me makes sense. James, like, I can, I can get it because I'm just, in terms of just like, James Blake is also a very, very good producer. I could see why she's just like, oh, the weekend taking nothing away from him, I don't, the weekend's music has never had that much depth to me. I know that's going to sound so bad. That's not why I go to weekend but it's just yeah um i know i know this was rough for you too it was hard because symbol like symbolically it's great like she's talking about working hard grinding but the the

chapter name in the in the film is emptiness so it's like essentially someone that's disassociated and feeling numb from her experience and this infidelity kind of ruining her world and it's just like this haunting like, I don't know, she's playing like a stripper in the song and it's like, I get symbolically its function and I think it works within the album. But if I'm forced to pick, worse song. Best deep cut. Before I reveal you mine, I'm curious about yours. I wonder, I don't think it's going to be the same.

Do you have a deep cut? This was difficult because I'm like, what's actually a, because there's not that many out and out hits. Right. It's like everything's kind of a deep cut in a sense, aside from formation, I feel like. or even hold up maybe. All right. So this,

I don't know. I don't, what's the song? I think it's all, I think it's all my love. Wait, what? Isn't that the lyrics?

I don't think so. It's not going to bail. Maybe your performance is just not accurate. That is definitely what, whoa, I have a song. Oh, okay,

all night. Okay. Oh, that's what she's singing? What did you say? What did you say? That's, that's,

you know, I'm an idiot. Because the title of his call's all night. And is it. For years I've been like, all my love. All my life. I've never read. The lyrics are all night.

I never make it that far in the album. Okay. My best deep cut is Sandcastles. This is smashed on my counter from my last encounter. Bitcher snatched out the friend. Do you like Sandcastles? This song is gorgeous, dude. It's a classic ballad.

It's just Beyonce and piano. This is Beyonce, a true vocalist, carrying the entire song with a phenomenal voice, but in a similar way as freedom, a lot of this, well, the song on its own is like, it's a song like singing about me actually where I listen to it and I just get teared up every time. But a part of that is, again, like freedom,

this is the moment of forgiveness. in the narrative. This is where essentially she sets up the sandcastle motif where she says, we built sandcastles that wash away. I made you cry when I walked away, admitting that she did leave Jay at some point. And then says, and although I promised that I couldn't stay, every promise don't work out that way. So essentially saying, I tried to leave you, but I can't.

And this is the moment where I accept you back into my life. This is where the moment that we start to heal together. and I want to play you just one excerpt from the song because it is, I think, one of the most beautiful moments that I have ever heard in music, I think. That is a perfect example of the power, the depth of Beyonce's voice.

Do you think that We also tend to ding singers like Beyonce because they have that voice where it's like we almost feel like their music is less artistic. You know what I mean? Where I feel like a lot of times with with rock stars or especially white artists, it's just like, oh, well, if they can't sing obviously, well, there's more depth to their lyrics and there's more depth to the kids. And I'm like, yeah, that's the thing. We think it's a cheat code. It's like you're just a pop star with a good voice. People write your, this is the typical pop star formula, really.

It's like people write, you have songwriters, and it's like this whole formula behind you, which I think was some of her early career, of course, but like, no, yeah, I think, I see your point in terms of like, we need to give her more credit as an artist. As someone who knows how to use her voice effectively, which is much different than just having a great voice. Understanding the emotional impact of that moment. I'm sure maybe she had some people helping her write songs. Like, that's pretty typical. But for her and her being such a savant with backing harmonies,

like we hear the stories of people like, she goes in there, she creates all those harmonies herself. She's super articulate and a perfectionist when it comes to like her vocal deliveries. And so it's not just about having a great instrument. That is the thing about being a singer is that you're kind of just born with a good instrument or not. But it's another one to be a virtuoso of that instrument that you're born with. And Beyonce is clearly that.

And even, even, you know, she's so good with her voice. I love the times. She's like, yo, I'm not going to even sing. I'm going to rap this part. Yeah. Because she's, like, she's low-key, Beyonce's a good rapper. I know. Like, she can, like, sometimes, like, when she, there are certain singers where it's just like,

when Ariana Grande starts, like, rap, I'm like, all right. Shoot me. When Beyonce does it, I'm like, all right, B, I'm like, I can see you. You're getting in that pocket. That's another rumor, not as strong as the rock, but, like, some people are speculating. The third Renaissance might be. rap, but I don't think that makes as much sense. I don't think that makes as much sense in terms of just like the narrative arc of act one, act two, act

three. Yeah. Because like, to your point, lemonade is, is the moment where it's like, all the acts are literally her taking slivers of lemonade and being like, all right, I'm actually going to do the expansive version of this. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the rock is, especially what I learned even researching the lemonade stuff was like,

where she honors artists like Sister Rosetta Tharp, which was this black woman, great guitar player in the early days of rock and roll that really influenced guitar playing in general that most people just have no idea who sister rosetta tharp is and i think part of renaissance and reclaiming these genres that can be attributed to black artists or the black influence or contributions to genres like country kind of get whitewashed i think rock is going to be perfect if that's what it is anyways um moving on to best moment i think we already talked about it for me it's clearly just the HBO premiere of Lemonade, the film, and then the surprise drop of Lemonade the album, Latin Night on Title.

And just the frenzy of that moment. Becky with the good hair, kind of like that whole mystery of it all. And like, I just remember that time so clearly. Just the kind of hysteria that she was able to conjure up in the culture that very few people have the ability to do, just to create that kind of moment. You remember that?

I remember the hysteria. I remember Beyonce's, especially at that time in music, the very rare artists that can force everybody to stay home and turn on HBO for an album. Like that is something where I'm like how many artists in 2025 can do that. Taylor Swift is probably among like Beyonce still. Taylor, I don't actually like, Drake probably not. Kanye definitely not. Kendrick definitely can.

Yeah, it's Kenrick. So like, even at that moment, especially also when lemonade comes out, I think what people forget is that that was still a very, very rocky time in the music industry. I think streaming especially was still, like we take it for granted. We work for Spotify, obviously, but we take it for granted how shaky things had gotten at that point. And I think even for Beyonce as an artist, she was going in a place where it's like she had been famous and making pop music.

15 years at that, like 10, 15 years at that point. And Lemonade to me was an interesting choice for her to make in her career where when the foundations of the music industry and where we're going is streaming going to save us all of this, for her to be like, no more hits. I'm actually doing my most personal thing to date. It was a powerful moment. Because I think when we talk about freeing her, not just from, you know, the like, of, bunch of things about black love and that experience and everything. I also think this album freed her from expectations of being Beyonce. I think so. Yeah. And it's a she follows the formula that every artist that I admire historically do, which is comes into the industry and to the public

consciousness as one thing, usually a pop singer or a pop star, uses her influence to then present more creative, creative and artistic visions and ideas to this massive audience that they've accumulated. I think of like artists like, you know, if you go back to like the Beatles did a similar thing coming in as essentially a boy band, but then really experimenting later in their career. And like, I really admire people with such a huge platform using that platform to introduce people to really complex, emotional, like everything you'd want. And, like, everything you'd want. art and kind of quote unquote high art for lack of a better term to expose the masses to to that kind of thing where she she could have just rode her career like any other quote unquote pop star but

to really see her coming to her own as an artist especially as a black woman I think has been if you would have told me back when I was listening to destiny I still listen to desi child almost every day if you would have told me that Beyonce by like at this point in 2025 to me she's on the same level as the people you met when we talk about the Beatles, when we talk about Bob Dylan, when we talk about Prince, when we talk about all these artists. I'm just like, no, you got to, like, you literally have to put Beyonce. She's in there for sure. She's literally like from everything, from the pop records, to the more considered shit, to the vocals, to the Coachella performance. I'm just like, she's no longer to me in just an R&B conversation or a pop conversation.

She's in the music greats conversation. And the thing is, too, to wrap this up is like, We're interested in what she has to say, which I feel like is rare air to artists to get to. For example, The Weekend has been doing a similar type of thing, experimenting with cinema, relating it to his albums. His albums tell this story. It's not as interesting or as impactful as Lemonade. And to your point about who can stop the world and force them to tune into an hour-long special on HBO, the weekend, as popular as he is, he's probably way more stream than Beyonce is. I don't think he could do that. It's not about just her popularity.

She's gotten to the point as an artist, as a Kendrick is. It's not only that we want great music, it's like, what does that music, we expect her to say something with every record now. And she delivers. She's been delivering since Lemonade on not only conceptual framing things conceptually like a Renaissance idea, but, you know, those albums are saying, each of those albums are saying something. And that, again, Lemonade is the genesis of her as that type of artist. And I mean, the last thing I'll say before we go head to head is, you know, I've had a very winding career with Beyonce's music critically in terms of what my favorite moments are. But what I'll say is like, yo, heavy is the head that wears the crown.

And I think what makes Beyonce so special as an artist is most black women aren't even allowed to get to this point. It's not that black women don't have the talent. It's just like when you think about the course of popular music and all of the bullshit that women in this field have to go through, there's a reason why Beyonce feels a responsibility to be like, no, no, no, no, no, I'm going to teach you about black people's place in electronic music and country music and rock music. That's why I'm going to pull this clip from a chain gang or this clip from history. and contextualize it because when you're a Beyonce and there's only one of you standing around, if she doesn't do it, who else will?

Right, which is why not to get into the controversy around her and some people have problems with her doing that kind of thing. It's like, but to your point, it's like, if not her, who? If it's not perfect for you and your specific vision, I get that. But like, at least she's trying and it feels genuine to me. It feels like it is coming from her experience and her own, research and everything. So I've been, and here's the thing, I'm as critical as anyone.

Beyonce has done certain things where I'm like, I don't know about that. But to your point, I've always come back to, I'm like, I don't need my pop stars to be perfect. I'm not going to Beyonce to give me a PhD level thesis on every, on every single thing she's doing. I'm going to Beyonce to be like, shit, I wasn't even thinking about that today. Let me go do my own research. That's what the good artists do. Kendrick Lamar doesn't have to be perfect to me.

Every single part of his lore theory about race, like I disagree with a lot of it. But sometimes I'm just like, hey, we weren't talking. Like, hey, he's put it out in the ether. Now we're talking about it. Exactly. Exactly. So are we ready to debate? Yeah, this is going to be tougher than last episode.

Last episode was like a- It was super easy. This one? Yeah, this one, I don't know. So biggest song, we're going Formation versus Izzo. is definitely I wish I could pick maybe people are going to be mad at me

for not picking up but I think it is Izzo it's formation to me has almost kind of been lost in the sauce like I think a lot of this album has been lost in the sauce

of the Renaissance era right I'm gonna be real I think there are other Beyonce songs that could easily triumph over Izzo but I don't think

formation's the one so iso on the board easy I think so best song though this is going to be tough. Heart of the city. Heart of the city. Damn.

I'm going to give you the four. Why do you think it should be freedom? Because everything I laid out, like they're both spectacular songs for different reasons, although heart of the city like we talked about does have depth. It's not like he's saying nothing. But how do you beat for in my mind, how do you be, let's bring in the Kendrick feature also with this, which is spectacular and the perfect use of a feature. that the beat, the symbolism of the beat, within the narrative, it's just like way more complex.

On a surface level, I think it's just as good as Heart of the City, this as a song. But to me, the depth of freedom is what I'm going to say is what puts it over Heart of the City. Are you going to make a case against me? Are you push them back?

I would make the case. Heart of the City is a top 5J record. Freedom to me is, isn't even a top 10 Beyonce record. And, like, I think if you ask most Beyonce fans, what songs of her, of hers are just, like, when you go down the list, I think freedom is one of her most important songs.

I think it is one of her most layered songs. Everything that you say, I don't disagree with. And I could even see if you're talking about the things to unpack. It's just, it's like comparing, like, a great magazine. to a great book. And that's not me dissing heart of the city. They're trying to do two different things. But if I'm thinking of what's more important to popular music, what's the more, not just the

more popular song, but in terms of just like, what do I want to eat every day? What, like, moves my soul? Heart of the city is just, it is incredible. Like, Jay-Z is, when all is said and done, Jay-Z is going to be the greatest rapper of all time. and you cannot tell that story without Howard of the city. I think that you can tell the story of Beyonce without. You can't tell it without lemonade,

but you could tell it without freedom. But this is a 21st century debate. We're not debating Jay-Z's best song. We're not making Beyonce's best song. If an alien dropped to Earth and we had to give them a song, like to me, you can give the alien freedom. And it would say so much not just about Beyonce as an artist, not just about lemonade as an album,

but it could tell. you things about not only this moment in culture, but also the history of this country is embedded in this song. Like it literally is, I play you the samples. It is embedded in the song. Here's the thing. All of that is true. But if you look at heart of the city, to me, it has all of those same things that you're talking about in terms of like 24, like, it's true. The sample in terms of just like the history of black music. the history of where Kanye sits in that, where Jay sits in that,

Jay's verses in terms of just like him using his position in rap to point to the trajectory of other black celebrities and the way that like to be a black celebrity in America at some point you are either going to be torn down. There's only going to be so much time that you have on the clock. I don't know if you could tell the story of Jay Z. hip hop New York hip hop

without heart of this connection I'm just making now though is exactly what you're laying out that is embedded in heart of the city like the elevator moment was that for him

like he could have wrote avert like he could have started off a verse flipping that with the elevator like it's I won't be like it's just we might need to call the referee we're gonna have to call in the referee I just love heart of the city so much

there's no I'll put it to you this way Justin's the biggest Jay Z fan on earth I'm not the biggest, no, JZ is not, no, I'm not the biggest Jay-Z fan on her, okay? I want to set the record. I just said Prodigy was one of my favorite. Okay, whatever. I don't think it's right for me to place a vote in this, though, because I think based on the amount of times you guys called me in for Jay-Z versus Beyonce, it's just very clear where

my allegiance is lied. However, I will say that Charles's argument. about what this song means in each artist's careers, respectively, holds a lot of weight. This song means a lot more for Jay-Z than Freedom does for Beyonce. Okay, this is an interesting exercise because this is showing us the difference between lemonade is clearly more than the sum of its parts.

So in an exercise like this, when we're singling out a piece of the album that is an entire world, we're plucking one element out of that world, And it's going against an album that is just not conceptual, really, that each, each song is constructed to be a standalone thing where lemonade is conceived as this larger vision. So it is, I am realizing that it is failing in the individual category section, but I think it's actually going to make an interesting debate when we get to the end of the voting.

I will say, here's the thing. Lemonade is a better album. Like, it's like, it's not, I don't think it's a, it's not the album that I like. that I like more, but to your point, we are comparing like the artistic statement of someone being like, I'm creating a whole world to someone being like, what Jay-Z was going after is not pettier, but like Jay-Z wanted to be the king of New York. You know what I'm saying? And all that historically, it's not as like on the surface, but to your point, like you pointed out on heart of the city, like all that stuff is inherent in him being a rapper, him being black,

him being a drug dealer and ascending. Like all these things are saying things about the country tangentially and it's not like he doesn't have to he does say those things directly but like it's not as obvious as it's not as obvious or it's not as curated and this is the hard part of the art of the of the exercise is like these albums were made in such a were made so far apart that it's like Beyonce's making this album with so much more history behind her in terms of like where black music was then as a culture where with Jayze's making heart of the city, hip hop is

still ascending. You know what? Like Kanye's not Kanye yet. There's no Drake. Lil Wayne isn't mixtape Wayne. There's no future, whatever. Or even Ken... I would add Kendrick to that who I think Lemonade is clearly inspired by Kendrick Lamar and his vision of... And it's like

that is also what makes it different where I'm like, yeah, technically Lemonade is the better album because I'm just like what we actually want from black, what we want from black art now the ambition level is different than and that's not me guys that's not me saying black art hasn't been ambitious before i'm more so saying like we weren't expecting artists to there there was a purple right you know what i'm saying how many artists have a purple right not that many and like now it's accepted with like a kendrick or a conier or biontie it's like no like you need the movie you need

the album you need the you need the tour which way which where are we leading i don't know i mean i think you make great points and let's come back to this. Let's go Worst song. I think Worstong is super easy. Okay, yes. Okay, great. Point on the board for Beyonce. That's easy. No discussion. Best deep cut. I had Sandcastles versus

what was your, oh, fuck. We wanted, do you want to play them both side by side? Let's play them both side by side. It's such a, I mean, this is fucking ridiculous because what are we doing? Okay, fucking phenomenal. Now play sick. This is so ridiculous.

Okay, we go. Let me get to the good part. Come on, dude. In a totally different way, that to me is just as powerful, if not more. This is, like, fuck. You already know. You know your soul which one you want to pick. Sandcastles is so good, though.

I feel like I'm letting Beyonce down right now. best moment lemonade also has to be summer jam no what lemonade shifted the entire what are you talking about all right

can I ask you what I literally can go outside and be like oh I just put you on the summer jam screen that's a moment that is a moment it's you can distill it to a line the lemonade moment was like

global I get the hip hop lore of summer jam but like he brought out Michael Jackson. You know what I'm saying? Like Jay, Hope brought out Michael Jackson, bro. I mean, to be fair to that moment, like that moment would be way bigger in the air of social media.

Oh my God. Can you imagine? I actually, but if I can give you one, to your point, to me, to me, the limit is- Summer Jam is bigger, but globally in terms of just like that moment for Beyonce, all of the list she made in terms of like the number one album, the 21st century. I can't see on a global scale how the lemonade was bigger, but the hip hop head in me. Like, I was a kid in 2001 when this shit happened in Jersey. And this, like, I barely knew Chazy from like, it was just like he was the guy that was on fucking BT. And that shit still got back to me.

We were still talking about that. No social media, no whatever. Yeah, that's true. But all right, I'll give you lemonade. Give me lemonade drop. Come on. It's got to be that. Okay, so we got biggest song we're given to Jay.

Yeah. Worst song we're given to Beyonce wins because she's not the worst song. Best Deep Cut, Jay, Best Moment Bay. So we're tied. We have to debate. Someone's got to make the call on best song. Can I ask if the Kanye element? Because is Kanye Kanye Kanye without the blueprint?

Does he become, does he get there? That would also, I think, be. But we already honored that with Izzo. But what I will say is that if you're talking about music in the 21st century to Justin's point, we, if you take the Jenga piece of like Kanye's influence of heart of the city of Izzo of this, you take that jenga piece out of the 21st century conversation, it collapses, it falls apart. If you take freedom out of the 21st century, not that much changes. And I know that sounds bad. Like influential wise, like... It goes, but I get your point. So here's the more interesting question. Let's say in theory I give it to you.

Yes. Are you comfortable with the blueprint going to the finale over Lemonade? Is that something you're going to stand on? You know why I will stand on that? Because I would make the argument that lemonade is not even the best album that Beyonce released. It's the most important, I think. But the bet, like here's, I can make a case where it's like, you could make a case, like, Blueprint might not be my favorite J record, but in terms of like I can make the case

that the blueprint, because I was one of my, what you'm going to call it, one of my questions for you for Jay was going to be, do you know where Jay ranks blueprint in his entire discography? Because he did that. Do you remember that picture he did? I do remember that. Yeah, I don't remember where it was, though. it was number two. To him it was in terms of his best albums.

And I'm not saying I don't believe Blueprint is number two for me. Like that's not my ranking. But even Jay himself is like, no, no, no, like Blueprint is one of the most important things I did as a record. And I'm like, if we're talking about R&B? Who's the most important artist in the 21st century, Beyonce or Jay-Z? You are to be real? Alien drops on Earth. Who represents the 21st century?

I think it's Jay. It's clear. I can make it. So make the case for Beyonce. Everything we just talked about as someone like has entered that space of a prince of a Beatles of a, it's like she's at that echelon now. I don't, I love Jay. I hate even arguing against him. But to me, Beyonce is like the, if you even maybe even over Kendrick, I would put Beyonce.

So my argument for Jay is that if we're talking about what artists and cats. absolutely the 21st century. Not just the good, not just the artistic, but the ills. Like Jay-Z, when we look at where we look at where he started from reasonable doubt, when we look at him going from a street hustler, a rapper who is like behind the shadow of Biggie, and then where he's gotten this hyper-capitalist rock nation mogul, we're like, oh, that's where music went. And I'm not saying that that's a good thing, but I'm saying the blueprint is the type of project. When you look at the context of music in the 21st century, Jay-Z predicted it. It's not just enough. And like, if we're being honest, Beyonce learned from Jay-Z.

Beyonce's career and the arc of it and her turning, her taking her power back and turning from, hey, I wrote dangerously in love to, oh, no, no, no, I'm a mogul now. I am a business. I am selling fucking, I have an Adidas line. I have this. I have that. I can go on tour every other year and break records. Did it, did it da da.

She learned from Jay Z for good and ill. And when I look back at the blueprint and you're telling an alien, like, what is it to be a human in 2025? I'm like, yo, the devil that is Jay Z. devil that is Jay-Z and that's why I love him. He's, that is an evil man and I love me some hove. That's in the blueprint. Everything that we love and hate is in the blueprint. For one, you can't credit Jay Z for all that for Beyonce. I think she does that without him. I'm not saying Beyonce would have, Beyonce was Beyonce before Jay. And I think I, I mean,

4-4-4 in the introspection and the evolution of Jay-Z that we got there, it doesn't happen without Beyonce. Beyonce made lemonade first. name me an emotional conceptual project from Jay-Z before 4-44-4. Like, it doesn't exist. 4-4-4-4 is also great. It's great. A fine Jay-Z record. It's an okay J-Z record.

Does the whole project need to be emotional or conceptual? Like, you must love me off of volume one. Now I'm getting double-teamed. All right. Here's sales. You know, all right, here's a thing. as a hip hop head you cannot tell me oh dude you can't tell me like we're gonna leave the blueprint off for lemonade lemonade is the clear winner to me we have to flip a coin because i cannot like

this is one where i cannot vote because i just think like i am biased can i ask you this which one has more cultural moments lemonade or blueprint lemonade what if it no blueprint lemonade was a cultural, the whole thing was a cultural moment. Takeover and the entire Nas beef. Okay. Yeah. Great point. Izzo. Yeah. Bigger hit. Dropping on 9-11, him still like fucking going crazy.

Still, like, there's like moments on this record. Like, even what's the more iconic cover? The blueprint. What's so, like, I'm almost positive. Didn't blue, blueprint's probably outsold lemonade. Yeah, maybe, maybe. But this is not. we got to take it all in totality lemonade is just such clearly you put lemonade in a museum like that's the level

it's not even the best it is a fiance record it really is though no it's not it's the whoa it's the most ambitious we're talking about it's the most ambitious and not the best

and the thing is like people don't understand how good the film is is why I'm losing this argument because if you had a really and it's maybe just needs to be out there more but like to me in my mind, and now I'm realizing that people that don't, probably most people that don't have a familiarity or intimate familiarity with the film, that the film to me is like a big part of this because it is the gazamptu, it is the total world that she built, which is just artistically, I'm sorry, I love Jay-Z, I love the blueprint. It's just, it's, it's the bigger feat. And I think because Beyonce is the artist that I would choose over the two of,

forced, like, that's why I'm pushing for it so hard. But it's not last film standing. It's last album standing. All right. We have to do this for real, because we have to do this for real because we have to get out of here today. We are possibly realizing that we are headed toward a 2001 Bush versus Gore, or 2000 Bush versus Gore situation. where Beyonce probably made the better overall album

but because of the way we did the voting of the songs the Jay-Z moments are just better can we agree that right? I'll agree to that. I will agree with that. Okay. I have to right now attempt to make myself as unbiased as possible.

I like this. This is really fucking difficult. This is really difficult for me. I think that it's Charles I'm sorry I think that when you look at the totality

of the two records you're doing the right thing Justin you're doing the right thing I'm going to tell you Justin right now this is the most egregious thing that's ever happened in the Spotify studio like it legitimately is

like it's just like the foundational of like everything that I understand about you in this place is just crumbling right now like people are going to in the streets are going to be fucking rampaging. I am going to get out of here. I'm going to

get in my car that has Sirius XM currently tuned to Rock the Bell's radio and I'm going to hang my head in shame. We're calling it. Let's not belabor it. I think that honestly the thing I'm struggling with right now is picking the album

that has Girls, Girls, Girls, Girls' Girls' Remix. Yeah. Oh, great point. Excellent point. Excellent point. All I need. You're also not picking the record that has one of the grace discracks of all time. But we struggled. We struggled to find a bad song on Lemonade.

Maybe the highs aren't as high, but there's no lows. There's no girls, girls, girls. How do we feel about the patriarchy? You really want Jay-Z and Kanye to advance? You're going to pick Beyonce. You're going to pick. Really? All I'll say.

All I'll say. is this exactly what the woke mind virus is doing oh he goes all right he goes all right on us this is insane get your red hat where's your red hat bring it in fuck this

all right I want all everybody in the comments yeah voice their displeasure at this moment real hip hop died today in the ringer studios courtesy of one Cole Kushna

and one Justin sales we did the right thing Charles you'll thank me later to quote Drake should we tease next episode you're so pissed I'm so mad I'm 2 and O by the way

all right first of all you had my beautiful dark twisted fantasy and I had Drake that was your choice we had to get a Drake album there but wow a Jay Z album

not making the end all right it's cool it's it's fine so next episode two two Children of, well, it's, well, one legend and one annoying little goblin. Okay.

You see what I did there? I see what you did. Nice flip. Okay. You know? Yeah. One is what I would say a masked savant. Mm-hmm.

The other. As a child of that savant. Yes. Yeah. I'm very excited. So guys, thank you for this very contentious episode. If you cannot tell, I might not show up next. Next week.

Thank you to our producer Kevo. You know what I'm saying? Rocking behind the boards. Thank you. Who else are we thinking? Justin for snapping me in the fucking back. All right. We'll see you next week.

See you next week. All right. Time for cultural exchange. This time we're doing things a little bit differently. We're each going to pick our personal picks for the greatest albums of the 21st century, the stuff that, hey, didn't make the actual show. But the twist here is that I'm giving you the records I like to try to get you to get one in the final Royal Rumble. Yeah.

We're doing the same. I receive Lawrence Melodrama. You receive Futures Monster. Who wants to go first? I'll go first because, can I say, I fucking love this record. Really? It's so good. It's so good.

This is the most surprising thing I've heard. I know. I was surprised myself how much. I liked it. It's like, the caveat being you listen to our to the lyrics, if you try to do what I do with music, it just, you know, kind of, there's nothing there for me in that side of the world.

But in terms of just energy, in terms of innovation, I guess I took for granted future sound and what he's contributed to like the evolution of hip-hop, but like going back to it, making comparisons with his earlier work, trying to

find an influence that was like, who was he influenced to create this sound and not really finding anything at all in terms of like what he's doing is really new. That's what really struck out to me this time around was like and really like I've never really sat down to listen to an entire future project like I did for this. And it's kind of reminded me of like what Playbord Cardi is doing now. If you love it or hate it, like he's contributing something new to the genre in a way that I think Future was doing back then. And I feel like the product is a lot of the success of this album and future as an artist at this era was because he

found metro did he kind of crystallize the future sound with this project historically or was it already kind of there no i think this was when when future drops monster this the thing that you were describing which is like future came on the scene with i first remember listening to him on racks do you remember that song racks on racks got like to your point when monster comes out there was a future sound. The dirty sprite mixtapes to everything, but it had not really coalesed into anything that you could really point towards.

Because his first debut project was very poppy. It had songs like turn on the lights, shit like that. Honest, very, very poppy. Monster was when he's going back to the dungeon family meathead. I'm a fucking monster, the Sierra of it all.

And I think what you're locating is, to me, was to rock music is what auto tune became to hip-hop, which is like to understand future, is to understand someone who is taking vocal production and showing you with the way that he's bending his voice, the things that he's rapping about. Like Cody and Crazy is a perfect example.

You listen to Cody and Crazy, you're like, oh, this is one of the most important records of the 21st century. You could see how it influences all of Atlanta. You can see how it influences someone like Billy Eilish. It's just like that type of alienation, drug addled just vibe the best instrument that

future has is his voice even when the lyrics sometimes are very staccat like just almost like a tone poem the way he's singing them and the hurt like throwaway is a perfect example of you think throwaway is just this normal song

the beat switches he sings in this like almost falsetto of like uh of this girl Oh, fuck that other nigga get it over with. He's just, it's, it's some of the most incredible music I've ever, I've ever experienced. So that's why I gave it to you. Yeah.

I mean, that's like the, I think that's kind of a flaw of what I try to do with music. Too much sometimes is like intellectualize it and not giving credit to like, I don't do a good enough job of giving credit like to the futures of the world who do make these important contributions to the genre. These are the kinds of artists that make, make the genre alive. They're the ones, I mean, you need evolution. You need experimentation within the genre or else it just becomes an archaic dead thing like rock music became. And so you have to honor artists like Future the Cardi's of the world because they are contributing something totally new.

At least to me, can you find a reference point to like who does Future sound like before him? Like I can't really think of someone. Well, because Future's coming up through the dungeon family. So I think like there is to me you see the Andre influence, you see the big boy influence. You see the big Rube influence. like you can see he's also you can see the influence of like trap rappers who had come before him like ti like Gucci like but the set but its future sound is so distinct though yeah but you have to you have to I get how it it all is in there but like what I all right so like take take jeezie you know

what I'm saying like take trapper die take the um the gruffness of his voice the yeah the Gucci main like the thing that made Gucci main special wasn't always that he He was rapping the most intricate shit. Part of Gucci is a feeling. Part of Jezzy is a feeling, the ad libs, the claustrophobia of the trap of a literal, like, when you are going into the trap, it is a thing where it's like, oh, no, there's no way to get out. This is a cul-de-sac. Like, all of that, what makes future so good, the reason Push a T, the reason Kendrick want to work with him is because it took T-I. Gizi Gucci, they're still, even though I, everything I said about their ad libs and their penchant

for all of that shit, what future does is he cuts away the fat. I don't actually need that many bars to describe to you what it's like to sell drugs in Atlanta. I don't need to give you that, like everything that you're getting from me is coming from the tone of my voice, the melody, the thing that I'm building. It's not necessarily. His melodic intuition is so good. It's so, it's like... We talked about like Drake's melodic intuition and the way he's able to fluidly kind of

tow the line between singing and rapping. I feel like future does it even better. Is it time for melodrama, Lord? Yeah, I'm afraid that you're not going to be as glowing as I am to the future. Not as glowing, but remind me the year. 2017, I want to say. This record?

reminds me of 2017 to such an extent. And what I mean by that is I believe Lord was either living in New York or I remember when she dropped this, there were a lot of press photos of the places that she was staying and all of this. And because I was working in music journalism at the time and because I know how important this was to a lot of the people that I worked with, I always had a difficult relationship to it because this record reminds me of an era so much. And that's actually, like, that's a supreme, like, compliment where I was like, oh, this is called melodrama because she's being so, like, it is that dumb thing when we walked it.

We're like, it's called lemonade because she's making lemons out of lemonade. I was like, it took me a while to get into the record because I'm like, Lord and I are a similar age. Yeah. This is how it felt coming of age at that time in social media, falling out of love. being in shitty relationships. And I did not understand why this record meant so much to the women in my life at the time. And now going back to it, I had a deeper appreciation of it because I think what Lord is able to do, what Charlie XEX is able to do, what Taylor is able to do is encapsulate this difficult time,

not just for women pop stars, for just women in general in terms of like the demands of social media, the demands of like this complex of like have to be perfect all the things. the time. And yeah, it was a difficult, it was a difficult listen in the greatest way possible. I actually, even if this music isn't for me, I got why you liked it. Like I understood. I was like, oh, she's such a great lyricist. She's everything that likes the same stuff that we champion for Beyonce. I was like, oh, this is a really well put together record. Yeah. And it's also the sound of it. This is her and Jack Antonoff. This is post 1989, Taylor Swift and Jack Antonoff when he, I think he was still making really interesting music, which I don't know,

can't say exactly the same now. Are we, do we have the same Jack Antonoff opinions? Which is? One of the most, like, I can tell why artists love working with him super, super talented. Technically, I cannot take anything away from him. Yeah. I think he has been a blight on pop music where I think people go to Jack Antonoff because I just do think he's probably one of the best collaborators you can have in terms of,

being like, this is my idea, this is what I want to achieve, help me achieve it. And I think Jack Antonoff is very, very good as a musician, being able to lock into it. But sometimes I feel like his music leaves me a little cold. It leaves me a little wanting. I don't necessarily feel. I think, yeah, I mean, I think he had a prime, and I think he became the go-to guy. And I think he became spread too thin. And it seems like the product has been stepped on.

Yeah. But this is where when- This is him and his prime, for sure, I think. Exactly. And it's just, yeah, going back to this record, I just was, I was just like, oh, fuck, this is, like, this was of a piece. Lord, I think the thing that Lord was so good. Like, if I think of like, the women pop stars, if we take Beyonce out of it, who are the most important to maybe the last 10 years of music, this is in no direct order. It would be Lord. Charlie X, X, X, X, Lana, Cizah, and people would be mad at me if like uh if i don't put taylor in them in there but like all of those artists to me do the thing where i'm just like i was listening to some of the lyrics and i was just like oh fuck all of them worked with jack catch up i think i don't know if ciza has but yeah except wait ciza has too as well oh she has okay yeah this is like surprise me the way the i'm not

describing it that well but the best way i'd describe it is i'm like oh this isn't for white girl wrong. I can see that. It's very centered in like the white experience, that's for sure. I was like, oh, and the way that I can connect to like scissors control because I'm like, was she thinking about like some God? I was just like, oh, I'm just like,

yeah. Okay, and that, I've got that you liked it, but that's a perfect transition to my next one for you. When's the last time that you listened to, speaking of Beyonce and Solange, Solange's the seat at the table? Have you returned to this record? I'd never fucked with this. I know you didn't. That's

I'm giving it to you to return to you. Like, so when's the last time you listened to it when it came out in like 2015 or 16? Yes, I was doing like a couple of years. Sorry, guys, I had to cut it on this. This is real insult to injury after the whole Jay-Z Beyonce thing to give him to launch. A seated table is great. Whoa. Seated the table is a great record.

It's a great record. I understand why people love Solange. But once again, also in the same way that Lord was when I, was a music journalist in New York. There was a, there was a certain type of Solange fan back then where I was like, all right, bro, take off the fucking brunch hats. I have, I've had enough.

I've had enough. Do I, you want to go see blood? No, nigger, I don't want to see blood orange. Get out of my face. All right. Well, I hope you enjoy it a little bit more. What are you giving me? What do you give it me? What are you giving me?

In honor, I'm, Almost positive this was the record that I gave you in honor of this episode. Okay. I'm giving you the male version of Lemonade. Okay. Usher's Confessions. I believe this is like, did Usher's Confessions inspire the culture exchange? Because you've definitely given it to me in like season one.

But now I'm going to have to listen to it as like potentially to make the finale of the one of the greatest. This is literally, I'm telling you, I fought for Usher's Confessions to be. one of the records in the actual episode. Usher's Confessions is a top 10 album of all time. Y'all are bugging. You're crazy. Y'all are bugging. Who else is saying that, Charles? Everyone.

Who? The same people who love hope. The same people. I'm done. Is this true, though? Hold on. One second. He's not entirely wrong. Oh, God. He's not entirely wrong. Thank you.

Thank you. We'll save it for next week. I'll listen again in good earnest. I'm looking forward to it. Thank y'all. All right. Peace.