Dissect - Nostalgia, Ultra | LAST SONG STANDING (E2)

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

Cole and Charles continue their journey to crown Frank Ocean's greatest song of all time with Nostalgia, ULTRA - the project that put him on the map. The LSS Boyz travel back to 2011 with some mixtape background, quiz each other on fun facts, and debate what songs should be in contention for Frank's best ever. Official LSS S2 Playlist here. Let us know what your Last Song Standing is from Channel Orange @dissectpodcast and @charlesxholmes. Producer: Justin Sayles Audio Editor: Kevin Pooler Theme Music: Birocratic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome everyone to Last Song Standing. I'm Cole Kushna. And I'm Charles Holmes. And in the second season of Last Song Standing, we're diving deep into one of the most complicated and complex artists of the generation, Frank Ocean. Cole and I are debating our way through his entire catalog in an effort to decide what's the greatest Frank Ocean song of all time. Last episode, we kicked off the season trying to decide the best song off of Frank's debut album, Channel Orange. Charles picked Pyramids and I went with the far superior song, Bad Religion. All right. Stop. Stop.

We will have, we will have room. Anyway, on today's episode, we're going back to the days of Zibbyshaer links, Jacket for Beats, and pissing off Don Henley. That's right. We're talking about nostalgia ultra. Sink full of dishes, pacing in the kitchen,

cocaine for breakfast. Yikes. No more. Don't even listen to the songs I record. Will she be banging that Drake in my car? Got some pretty. Good beats on this 8.0. Good time. I'm going to ask me why. Because I just don't believe. Were you a blog boy, Cole. I'm not a good time to you.

You're so excited. The blog boys are back. This is my time. This is what I was put on this earth for. How are you feeling? Were you a blog boy, Cole? I was not. It's the same answer as last episode. You didn't have a favor, blog? Not right or two dope boys? Not right. That was the more popular one, right? Or Datpiff was the one I always kind of went to. That Piff is a mixtape site.

Oh, my gosh, Cole. Take me back to the days. Oh, man, you would go on two dope boys. There would be a new cool kids record. You'd be like, oh, shit. And then, like, it would have some sample and it would immediately be taken down. You're like, all right, fuck.

This sucks. But anyway, we're not here to talk about the cool kids. But we are here to talk about nostalgia. And for those that have forgotten or are listening for the first time, the rules of last song standing are pretty simple. Each episode, we cover one album and we are forced to crown. You guessed it, the last song standing. That means we could choose one song off each album, the one we think that is better than the rest. Then at the end of the season, we'll have a Royal Rumble finale where we'll bring the best songs we've chosen from each album and duke it out until we both agree what is the single greatest Frank Ocean song of all time.

All right, Cole. Now, usually, this is the part of the podcast where we talk about novel sales, cultural impact, and themes. But for the purposes of this episode, I think we came to an understanding that for nostalgia ultra, you have to go back to Frank's origin story. So you are Mr. Dissect himself. Can you kind of describe to the audience who Frank was at this point, where he's coming from as a songwriter? Yeah, well, Charles, I'm taking you all the way back. We're talking, we're talking to Orange's story, so I have to go all the way back.

I'm taking you all the way back, people. Don, do, do, do, sorry. Keep going. All right. Frank Ocean was not born Frank Ocean. He was born Christopher Edwin Bro in 1987 in Long Beach, California. At age of five, his dad left the family and his mom moved Frank and herself to New Orleans. And so this is, you know, the place where Frank is going to spend the majority of his childhood.

His formative years all take place in New Orleans. he's interested in riding and singing from a very young age. He cites car rides with his mom, listening to Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey and Nina Baker, as his earliest influences. And he's working, like, when he gets to the teenage years, he's working odd jobs, like literally mowing people's lawns while he's pursuing and getting better at riding and singing. And by age 18 in 2005, he moves into the dorms. at the University of New Orleans.

2005 is also the year that Hurricane Katrina strikes New Orleans. And so just a few months after he moves into the dorms, all his recording equipment is destroyed by Katrina. The studio that he was working at was also flooded and looted. And so essentially he found himself without, you know, this new place he was living, he had to move back out, had no way to record himself. And this, you know, eventually leads him to move to Los Angeles.

He originally went there for six weeks and ended up staying indefinitely because things were going so well. And this is really where the origin story of the Frank Ocean that we know today really, really begins. All right, but Cole, I think what is one of the most important parts of Frank Ocean's story and is honestly one of my favorite pastimes is shitting on record labels. So, Cole, you know, I'm being very serious. So I think what you have to do to understand Frank is that he has a massive chip on his shoulder by the time nostalgia ultra comes out and it is successful beyond what anybody thought. And that is really because he had been working in L.A., writing for different artists like Brandy, John Legend, Justin Bieber. And I like this one quote that he says, I'd sit in those studios for hours, but I wouldn't write any line that was as good as the lines being written in the rooms next to me. I had to elevate. I was looking at it like an athlete then. Like I just wanted to be better than

everybody else. So by this point, 2009 hits, he meets legendary producer Tricy Stewart, a songwriter, A&R for Debt Jam, and he signs with them. And immediately he is shelved, which at this point, I am not surprised because if you are alive at this point, you could not sell an R&B album. So it is very, it is not surprising to me that somebody at this point who has a name that I'm sorry is that as boring as Lonnie Bro is just not going to make it in the industry. But then something happens. Odd Future scares so many little white parents and their children across the nation. So, Cole, why do you think Odd Future is kind of what it takes to ignite Lonnie Bro's career and transformation into Frank Ocean?

Yeah, I think, you know, I just put myself in Frank's shoes and, you know, he gets signed to one of the most notable, respected labels for this genre of music in Def Jam and probably assumed it was going to be a pretty transformative moment. And then to realize, you know, he was immediately just going to be ignored by the label that just signed him and probably not giving him any money. Definitely not giving him any money. Come on. You know, like, sorry, Def Jam. You know, he was a successful songwriter. He was making good money, you know, writing for the likes of Brandy and for John Legend. All of those songs, if you go back and listen to those songs,

it is very funny because, like, as much as we're like, oh, Frank Ocean is an amazing songwriter, which he is, the songs do not sound the same when another artist is singing them. He is very much at this point, what I would call a Journeyman in terms of like his pen. He's not a Neo in any sort of the imagination in terms of like giving great songs to other artists. just my opinion, don't kill me, Frank. I think, well, I mean, he's an artist. You know, he's a songwriter, I would say, secondary to being just an artist.

And so, you know, this kind of sends him to a dark period. He said at the time, quote, I was in a real dark time in my life when I met them, speaking of odd future. And I was looking for reprieve at 20, 21, I had a couple hundred thousand dollars from producing and songwriting. I had a nice car, a Beverly Hills apartment. And I was miserable. And here's this group of like,

minded individuals whose irreverence made me revere. The do-it-yourself mentality of odd future really rubbed off on me. So, you know, there's a lot to get into with odd future, um, just who they were. But I think what this quote taps into and what really pushed Frank was this DIY mentality of, all right, I might be signed to death damn, death jam, but I'm going to, I'm going to do this myself. I'm just going to, you know, this leads directly into nostalgia ultra, creating this album 100% on his own with his friends and we'll, releasing it for free on his Tumblr page without any promotion or any announcement. He just kind of drops it.

And I think, you know, I don't think Frank, and you probably know more about this because you're more on the streets than I were and, you know, had your ear to the ground during this time. The vlog is here is that the street's cool. But like Frank was always kind of like, he seemed a little bit outside the group. He came in later. He was this R&B type singer who also could rap well. But like, and he was older and he also had money. I think the thing that's funny, though, is like Frank isn't.

so much an anomaly in terms of like when we think about the R&B singers that we remember, what does the weekend have to do? The weekend has to release House of Balloons. Drake has to give it the co-sign on his blog spot before that blows up. Jeremiah. Jeremiah signed at this point, and he has to release a mixtape for his label to be like, oh, Jeremiah exists. Same thing with Miguel. Miguel had released a debut album that did not do what anybody thought it would do. And for people to care about kaleidoscope dreams. He has to start tossing out free music. So I think when we think of the artists, the R&B artists that are still kicking around at this point, Frank is of a lineage of like, hey, the labels do not know how to sell modern R&B music and they don't know what the future of R&B is

going to sound. And I think odd future was a perfect example of they give somebody who had already been part of the machine and the system a new way of doing it. And they set him free by being like, hey, you don't need any of these people. You don't need Def Jam. You don't need Tricky Stewart. Just give it to the people. And then overnight, it explodes. So, Cole, you go back.

So you listen to Blonde, right? We established that in the first episode. The first album you listen to is Blonde. You listen to Channel Orange. Then he gets a nostalgia ultra. At this point, is the mixtape even something you can still download? Because I don't think it is. No, I've only listened to it on YouTube is really.

you know, the tragedy of this album or this mixtape is that you can't listen to it anywhere aside from YouTube, really. So I never got the experience of actually downloading it and hearing it, you know, that way. So I'm curious, you got to take me back to your first time. Did you download this like in the moment type thing? Or like what was your first experience?

I remember downloading this. I did not know what Frank looked like. Like this was at a point where like every R&B artist was like, look at me, I'm so mysterious. Like I didn't know what the fuck. Like I didn't know who ABLE Tesefay was in the weekend. I didn't know who Frank was. I just saw this car, nostalgia ultra.

The first time I played this album, I absolutely hated it. I was just like, what is this? This is not my R&B. You fuck it out of here. And I go back to it for some reason in like a week or two. And I don't know what happened, but it just unlocks. And I'm just like, this is the only thing I'm going to listen to for like three months straight. So this, I definitely remember listening to it.

And I think the other thing that was weird is that we're still in an age where I have an iPod, but I play CDs in my car and listening to a mixtape that has all of these samples of like a cassette going into a player and little interludes and all of these things. It was something that I was not used to hearing as much in my iPod. I was like, this is, this is, it would just threw me for a loop. And that's what I think it took me a while to be like, okay, I get Frank Ocean, the master marketer, but looking back, because I didn't think of the themes or of this project until today, what do you think like the themes of nostalgia ultra are? Because it is a mishmash of a lot of different things. Yeah, I think, I mean, to me, the way I conceptualize this was,

you know, there is a theme and then there is kind of a storyline, but not really. It's kind of, I compared in my mind to like what section 80 was for Good Kid Mad City for Kendrick. Nostalgia Ultra is for Channel Orange where you see a lot of the seeds of themes and concepts that will be, you know, much more developed in their later projects in these early works. So that's how I think about nostalgia Ultra. It has a concept. You know, it's this meta play on what a mixtape is, which is originally cassette tapes. Yeah. The mixes that you make for your friends and like, which is super interesting.

interesting at this time, I feel like, where the mixtape, what a mixtape is is kind of being called into question a little bit just because like, what is the difference between a mixtape and an album now that they're streaming, now that there's these download sites. I mean, even think of Lil Wayne. Like, it's just like, nostalgia ultra is so interesting because Lil Wayne becomes the best rapper alive, essentially like taking other people's songs and throwing his own verses over them and being more popular than the original song. A mixtape, what we knew it to be when 50 Cent and G.

or rapping over other people's beats, all of that shit. You put that in an R&B context, but for Frank, I have to be real. This is me just going back being a black person at that time. It was so wild because Pitchfork was just like, yo, can you believe it? Hov and Beyonce were at a Grizzly Bear concert. Black people like indie music. What the fuck? So it was just very much when Pitchfork still had like the juice like that and they could

tank, like they could tank a person's career or they could make it. Frank Ocean comes out and the first song you hear is over a Cole play sample or one of the best songs features the Eagles Hotel California just like lifting it and then he's like singing over an MGMT

song. So I think that to your point we weren't really used to getting a mixtape yet that we're like this just sounds like a person's album. If this wasn't, if we didn't know that these were all samples nostalgia ultra

at that point sounded like, okay, this is a little rough, but this kind of just sounds like a debut album. And one of the quotes that I found that makes this kind of like, to me, a proto channel orange, as he said to Complex, a lot of this record is influenced by one relationship, but I don't owe that whole project to one situation. It doesn't matter what the details of it are. And I found that line so interesting because it's like, we know for a fact that Channel orange is a lot more blatant about that relationship.

Yeah. But still in the Solja Ultra, did you even see some of the romantic storyline being like, he's pointing towards something? I mean, it's right there in the beginning of the record, you know, it's a, it's, you hear this cassette sound, the name Street Fighter, so we get the nostalgia of video games. But then we're kind of like ushered into this world with Strawberry Swing, which is very much about this early romance and, you know, the nostalgia of this. really touching relationship that he, you know, would literally give his life for is what he says in that song.

And then there's this alarm clock and he wakes up and then we get the song Nova Kane, which is all about being numb after falling in love with this person in the story. It's a woman that, you know, we'll talk about, I'm sure. But, you know, we know Frank loves to fictionalize emotions. And so that contrast between him being nostalgic about this early relationship and the present day reality of him, yearning for that type of feeling but feeling numb to everything because that that initial romance was so strong and tainted everything thereafter that's that's the whole concept of this project if there is one is that him going through all these songs kind of like channel orange going through these journeys of these songs trying to get back to this nostalgic feeling where he was in love and calling back to that summer that that powerful summer when he was in love with this this guy so um the

seeds are all there. All the Frank Ocean seeds of the artist that he would become are pretty well formalized for someone's debut project that didn't have any funding. Like this is a phenomenal project that someone just created on his own. Like it's, it's fantastic. Going back to it, I was shocked at how it's a great thesis statement. It's a great like a college kid where you're just like, okay, this kid is very smart. If they get any money and backing and time, like real time, and real push, there's a reason why we're all like, oh, my God, Channel Orange, he did it. Because the Sautil Ultra, I'm just even going back and listen to it, I'm like, this just needed 15% more, and it's there. You know what I mean?

Yeah, so take me back to the time and the reaction, too, because I didn't live through it. So you got like, obviously this kind of transforms his, his reputation overnight. He gets like the Beyonce and Jay Z co-sign, the Kanye co-sign. Like, do you remember this era of him just kind of overnight being this, Oh, yeah. Okay. It happened so fast in a way that back then was still novel. Like, virality as a concept at that point is still something new where we're watching people on YouTube, big music videos like, okay, go. And we're just like, oh, my God.

What? You know, we weren't used to somebody going viral every second of the day, you having to keep up. And I think Frank was one of those artists. I would put Frank the weekend who they, they'd, drop a tape and then a place like complex is tracking them down or frank is taking a photo with Beyonce and I just remember this feeling of like within the next few months Frank Ocean almost overshadows most of odd future that's not named Tyler the creator or Earl because I think one thing that everybody felt at that time is odd future is a little less fully formed like

if you go back to Tyler creators like first mixtape bastard, it does not sound as polished as nostalgia ultra. And I think very, very quickly, you're like, wait, how did our future make an artist that sounds this mature and put together and come to find out this has been somebody who's been in the industry, has made thousands of dollars, has written for people. And very, very soon, Frank is like, it's just like, yo, Frank is on wash the throne, what the fuck? You have to think, like, nobody was talking about Frank. Then a couple of once later, you're just like, he's on the biggest.

He opened. Doesn't that album open with his voice? With no church in the wild. Like, back then I was like, wait, what? I was just listening to him on a mixtape. What the fuck? So, yes, it was, it imploded. But here's the thing.

We have a segment for this because I think I'm going to stump you with these facts. We're going back. So it's time for our album trivia section, or as we like to call it, Super Quiz Kids Super Quiz Kids is where Cole and I attempt to stump each other with little known facts about the album. Whoever gets the most questions correct will get first pick in the last song standing segment

at the end of the episode. Cole, I am so ready. I was just like, dog, I didn't bring my best foot with the last episode. But I think like I have you. Like, wait, can I go first? Yeah, go for it. All right.

So one of my favorite songs, There Will Be Tears, features a sample of Mr. Hudson's song of the same name. Now, do you remember the title of the Mr. Hudson album that there will be tears comes off? Oh, gosh. No, I do not. I do not.

Like, I do it. The title is perfect. Like, the title is really good. Okay, what is it? This man called his debut project, straight, no chaser. Like, that is, If I was in a, if I was in like a music studio and I was just like, damn, you know what a white boy R&B singer would call their first album?

It would be straight no chaser. I knew you wouldn't do this? Hey, I was a Mr. Hudson fan so I can make fun of him. Or like, do you remember Chester French? I don't. Justin, do you remember Chester French? Please get on this, Mike. I know you do.

Yes, I remember. I remember Chester French. Where are we going with this Chester French? Can we play a little bit of Chester French here? Just to prove my point, at this point, if you were a, if you were like a label or you were like a rapper, you always had like the white boy in the crew who could kind of sing and you're just like, all right, here, like here's just a French. But then we got post Malone and everything kind of went downhill. Anyway, I knew I was going to stump you with that one. Cole, hit me with your question. Okay, this one I'm really proud of. And in my, you know, I did Frank for season three or dissect.

In my research for that season, which is extensive, I did not learn this fact back then. I learned it for the research of this show, and I'm really proud of this. So in the song, American Wedding, a man and a woman have a shotgun wedding, and a woman signs the marriage certificate, Miss Kennedy. He says, M.R.S. Kennedy, is one of the lyrics, is what she signed her name as. Do you know what this last name Kennedy is in reference to? And I'll give you a hint. It's not the presidential family percent.

God damn. That's not exactly. It might have something to do with it, but it's not exactly what I'm looking for here. I don't. Like, you stumped me already because I was listening to this song, and I was just like, is this the president Kennedy's? It can't be. And I knew I should have researched it.

Fuck. Okay. What is it? Kennedy was the name Frank Ocean was going to call himself before he came up with Frank Ocean. So he was hanging with this music collective called the MIDI Mafia. And one of the artists in that mafia said, quote, While we're doing nostalgia ultra, he had been toying with a solo name. the whole year and a half while he's working on it.

He said, I think, I think I'm going to call myself Kennedy. And he was like, JFK, literally JFK was going to be his name. And so before Frank Goshen was either Kennedy and or JFK, which is just so cringe. This is a perfect quiz back, because this just shows you how every single artist is just like one wrong move away. I know, right? Like, we would have never talked about, we would never have a whole entire season. devoted to an artist named JFK or Kennedy. Jeez.

All right, this is my second one. I don't think you're going to get this either. So, Def Jam after totally, I believe, I don't know if this is completely fact, but there was a rumor that, like, Def Jam was trying to sign Frank Ocean and they didn't even know he was on the label. I don't know if that is, like, a real deal story.

Like, but anyway. Once they figured out that he's already signed there, they wanted to release nostalgia Ultra as an official nostalgia light. It wouldn't have had all the songs because not all the samples could get cleared. But there was going to be two additional songs on this that were rumored. What were the two songs? What were their names? Was one of them the Accura and Teg Girl or whatever it's called?

Yes, it was. That was one of them. Okay. I don't know the second one. What's the second one? Do you know the song Whip Appeal? Whip Appeal? No.

Whip appeal? Is this leaked? Have you listened to this? I have not listened to it in a while. I'm pretty sure it is out there, though. So Whip Appeal was the other song that was going to be rumored to be on nostalgia light that just never got released. I'm pretty sure Frank went on his Tumblr and be like, yeah, don't ask me about this. It's not dropping ever.

So that was mine. So damn, neither of us have gotten one on the board. I got half. I got half. You got half. All right. That's a half point. That's a half point. Correct. Okay. So second question.

Okay. So as we talked about, Frank, sung from our early age and cited those car rides with his mom listening to Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston as early influences. But then he heard one artist that dramatically changed his perspective on music. Who's that artist? And bonus point, if you can name the exact song by the artist that he heard that changed his life. Can you give me a hint? I'll take like I'll I'll like give me point 25 off of this like it'll just be 0.75 if I get it just give me like one hit

oh god it's hard to it's hard to give you a hint without just giving it away it was an 80s artist 80s artist yeah is that's good that's it's in I get 80s

just think about it's it's not genuine I that's why no genuine what you're talking about genuine is up of the 80s it's Prince T I see That's every nigga has influenced by Prince, bro.

That's like, that's actually a tricky question because I'm just like, damn, I should have just said Prince. Everybody's just like, you know who's great? Prince. Okay, so let me read you the quote. So she, he told GQ, when I used to sing when I was younger, my mom would be like, stop hollering. It used to make me all self-conscious about how I sounded, like my tone of voice or how

loud I was. Then I discovered Prince at my mom's friend's house. She used to have them on like every day. And I didn't pay attention at first, but I vividly remember the first time I heard beautiful ones and this grown man singing for his life. Immediately I remembered clicking like, okay, it's okay to holler and scream and everything, like express yourself. Prince basically made it all okay. So, yeah. Shout out. All right, Prince, the legend. That's such a sweet quote. That's, it's, all right, fine. You win this one. You got point five on the board. So,

guys, that was super quiz kids, my favorite part of the entire pod. But now we've set up history and themes of nostalgia ultra, it's time to move on to our next segment of the show, the nominations. And the winner is Frank Sitt. Frank Osk! Remember, the goal of each episode of Last Song Standing is for Cole and I to determine the single best song from a Frank Ocean album. The songs we select over the course of the season will then duke it out in a season finale Royal Rumble. Well, we'll be forced to agree on the last song standing, the single best Frank Ocean song. Right now, we're each nominating.

what songs from Installed to Ultra should be in contention. Cole, you got first pick last time, so I'll start us off today. Now, this is just the one that is like really, really close to my heart, and I can't believe I'm picking it because it's thrown over a sample of a band that I just cannot stand musically. Are you about to pick what I think you're about to pick? Because it might be also my first pick. Dog, strawberry swing is so dope.

Yes. Strawberry swing is so dope. Oh, my God. I can't believe me agree. Every moment was so precious. I was like here, it almost didn't make my list because this is like my favorite song off this entire project. But I'm like, it's not objectively the best, but it is the one where I'm like,

if you're going to start your debut mixtape with a sample and it's going to be a call play sample, you have to make it so fucking. perfect. Yeah. Because it's just, I'm just like, it's going to be corny. It is just any other army artists, I'm just like dog. If I hear a Coldplay sample, I'm going to run. And he just, I don't, I don't know. This, it just does something to me. And I think what I actually love about this song so much is that the original Coldplay song from 2009 is not this dramatic, really. Yeah. It is almost like a very like wistful, nostalgic. sounding song. So what he does is, is that he takes that backing, that backdrop, that

sample of this song, and he puts these very apocalyptic, almost end of time's lyrics over this, and to stage this romance that he's talking about, like it is the end of the world. It's something that is going to kill him. It's just, it's so amazing. My favorite lyric is like, he says, say hello, then say farewell to the places you know. We are all mortals, aren't we? any moment this could go. Cry, even though that won't change a thing. And the way he just sings it with so much emotion, to your point of how his mom was like,

stop hollering. Like, that is like the moment where he just like cuts to your core as a human. Yeah. I feel so corny just picking this song, but I don't know why I love Strawberry Swing so much. Am I off base by like how much I'm praising this uncle? No, this is my first pick. Like, I'm so shocked because I thought you were first

sure we're going to shit on me for this wait no no no I'm like I'm an asshole but I'm not that bad no it's like I mean conceptually the perfect start to this project because it's a preexisting song so he's playing into the traditional idea of a mixtape to your point

about Little Wayne rapping over other people's beat this is something people were doing but not at least in my memory not something that R&B artists were doing as much as rappers taking a beat and rapping over it and also rappers weren't like like Lil Wayne would do it sometimes, but a lot of times you just take the beat,

you would put your verse over on it, and that would be it. They are not like taking a song and then making a complete new song on top of that, especially in R&B. Making a better song, so that's the thing here. Coldplay is arguably the biggest band in the world at this point.

And it's a pretty bold move to take, I mean, I think Strawberry Song was a single. It wasn't like a big single, but it was, you know, one of the stronger songs on a very popular album. And he made, I think, an objectively better song.

This strawberry song is so much better than Coleplay's version. Like, drastically so. And it's like, here's the thing, as much as I want to hate on Coldplay, do you know how amazing it is for a 20-something-year-old R&B artist with no major pop songs to his name to be like, I'm going to take Coldplay song and I'm going to make it better. Yeah. And again, to like the conceptual start of it,

it's like if you notice the detail, so frank, in retrospect, but it starts like lo-fi. It starts purposely bad quality as if this is him singing over a real cassette tape. And then it kind of like morphs into high fidelity as the, you know, the

intro goes on and he starts to sing more and more. And it's like, one, it's just the perfect concept of like this mixtape idea, but also it just kind of feels like you're being like brought, like literally brought into this memory. Where it's kind of hazy and then all of a sudden we're like in that world. We're in his

mind him, this dream state of him reminiscing about this love. And the thing, it's like, yeah, he takes, so what he did, I think, is like, in the original song, Coldplay sings, they were sitting talking on the strawberry swing. Everybody was for fighting. Wouldn't want to waste a thing. So that one little line, everybody was for fighting, which is not developed or anything in the Coldplay song. He basically takes that premise and then develops an entire song around it. So to your point, like, it's this apocococcal. elliptic setting, where he's talking about, you know, this love feeling so strong that he would kind of die for it. And in the bridge, we like literally get this like Titanic scene where he's saying

he's seeing spaceships are lifting off of a dying world and millions are left behind while the sky burns. There wasn't room for you and I, only you, goodbye, goodbye. So it's like, we get this image of, you know, Frank's lover being abducted by UFO, but it's all about, him just getting his heartbroken and this guy leaving him so this is so frank to take this the seed of heartbreak and you know that emotion that you get post you know someone leaving you envelop it in this beautiful narrative and to your point like i have this highlighted on my my notes here like that's second verse you called out holy shit like we talk i talk a lot about the moments that gives me chills or like brings tears to my eyes every like even where you're just reciting those

lyrics, I was getting teared up. It is such a beautiful moment in the song. Like, when he says to the places that you know and he does that little descending, like, I don't know if you can hear it in your head, but oh my God. It like crushes me. When he sings even though that won't change a thing, I just, here's the thing. I did not know who Frank was when I heard this song for the first couple times. It had no face. I don't know the story. I don't even know what a lot of Frank Ocean fans would come to know about this love, his first love with another man. And it just hits you. That's how you know it's a good lyric.

Because I don't know any of that backstory yet. And the way he sings it still like punches you in the gut so much. I'm just like, I don't know who this guy is, but I just want to give him a hug. It's just this actually thinking about it, this is just such a bold way to start off a mixed day. It really, especially your first, it's, it really is. And the alarm clock at the end going back. It's still so effective of like, because immediately he goes into a song that would end up becoming like a bigger hit. But like that alarm clock almost, he takes you into that dream world to your point.

And by the time you wake up, I'm like, no, no, no, no, I want to go back to Strawberry Spinsman. I literally just want to go back. We get the exact feeling that he's feeling of like, you don't want this to end. And the genius thing is that he transitions. to the cold play version of the song as the outro, which is the best part of that song, the original is the outro. And of course,

Frank nails it and just plays that part is the only part that we hear from the original. And it's like, it's that weird kind of dreamlike state where it's like, oh, Frank is in this dream world singing over this song, but it's also an actual song.

So then we hear the actual song at the end of the song. And then we get the alarm clock as if like we're in Frank's shoes being woken from this dream that we don't want to leave. And you get that feeling. You do not want to leave that world of the song.

And we get that same root awakening and it transitions brilliantly into Novakane, which I don't know if you're good with moving on because Novakane is going to be my first choice. Oh, can you taste it, little tasting, Nova King. Oh, no. No. No. What? Really?

Come on, man. Here's the thing. Cole, you make fun of me every single episode. you're like, Charles likes to pick the singles. That's Charles. He's like, da-da-da-da-da. Charles like spangers. Come on, man.

Leave Novakane in the past, dude. Really? This song has not age well. This is actually, should we do my first bit? Should we go to crack rock takes? Oh, cue it up. Crack rock, crack rock. Takes.

All right, this is my big crack rock take of the entire episode. I only have one. Justin, can he turn on your mic? Because I need two people to weigh in on this. All right, I'm here. I think Novakane is just Death of Auto Tune for dumb hipsters. Explain. All right, so I'm going to read you lyrics from Novakine.

And by Death of Auto Tune, you mean the Jay-Z. Death of Auto Tune, the Jay-Z song of Blueprint 3 that all of the old heads were like, yeah, Hope just saved music. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I wasn't that far from being an old old head then. Auto team was dope. I don't know what people were complaining about. T-Pain was so hot.

Come on, I love T-Pain. I listen to any T-Pain album over Blueprint 3 every single day of the week. Anyway, I'm going to read you lyrics, and this is why going back to Novocaine, I'm like, this cannot be in contention on any single Frank Ocean list. All right.

Every single record, auto-tuning, zero, emotion. muted emotion. And then he goes, pitch correcting, computed, emotion. And he just keeps going on. And I'm like, ugh. Like, this is just very, this is very early 2000s, two thousand's, people being like,

Arnold Tune isn't real music, guys. And what's so fascinating to me about this is that Frank Ocean's entire career would go on to be him manipulating his voice in the weirdest ways he starts off blonde with Nike's Nike's is just when I first heard Nike's I'm like shut this shit off bro

I think Novakane like there's more lyrics in this where it's just very man I'm just living in the valley and all these people are super empty they're snorting cocaine but not me man I'm like that's what Novakain gives me

I'm sorry I'm done shooting on but is that crock rock rock take out of heat like am i being dumb just and cool i i always kind of just kind of breeze past those lyrics like i i never i never really like latch on to those i'm i get more focused on the metara cocella like i that that's the part that feels like very dated and stuck in time to me and i'll leave i'll leave the discussion on whether you guys would rather go see z trip or j z i'll leave that to you guys um but i kind of i kind of to just, I like it.

I hadn't considered it. I like the take. I also think it's funny that he says that though and then uses Mr. Hudson's voice on There Will Be Tears, which is very good. Okay, let me just step in because you guys are missing the point. Come on. Charles. No, no, no.

Don't, don't, because you're, this is catniff to you, Cole. You are, this is literally like, you're Mr. Kendrick. You're a Mr. like, yeah, give us that real shit. Like, nah, fuck out of here. Anyway, go, go. Because he's not, I mean, he's not. I mean, he's using autotune, like every fucking thing else in the song is an analogy. It's a metaphor.

What does he say right before that? He says, I think I started something. I got what I wanted. I can't feel nothing, even when I'm fucking Viagra popping. So he's comparing this numbed, emotionless feeling with using autotune to express this computerized numb feeling that he has, this emotionalist computerized feeling. I don't know if he's really shitting on AutoTune because he uses Autotune on the second biggest single on here swim good he literally mimics connie west with autotune on that song i think he's just

he's just using it as a symbol i think you're i don't think he's actually shitting on autotune no he's shitting on a certain type of artist that uses auto tune like let's be when he says every single record auto tuning it is a jab at like a lot of other you you have to admit yeah maybe maybe he's he's basically saying y'all y'all ain't use it like i use it which i just kind of like shut the fuck up. All right. Well, let me make the case for another game.

Make the case. Make the case. This is your nomination. I'm stepping on it. I'm very sorry. No, I mean, to be honest,

it's not the like, it's not my personal, like, favorite song, but it means a lot to the Frank story. I think this was probably the biggest song on, you know,

maybe because, yeah. This is a lead single, I believe. Yeah. So it's important to his origin story. And for me, more than the sound and there's a few songs

on this record that I, that I feel the same way about. More than the sound of the song or the song itself, I just love the concept of it. And it shows those seeds of what he would do way better in his later work with this pretty intricate story of, you know, another lot, you know, this love loss that he keeps returning to, just ruining everything for him.

And so that the whole, I think I started something is, you know, just I think everyone knows this story. It's pretty straightforward. But he falls in love with this girl at Coachella. she's doing porn to put herself through, you know, dentist school. So she's both beautiful and she's, you know, smart. And the sex that they have, the relationship they have makes him numb to everything else post this relationship or this fling or whatever it is. And, you know, by verse two, we get this really cool cinematic flash forward where you're saying, sink full of dishes, pacing in the kitchen, cocaine for breakfast, bed full of women, flip on the tripod.

I didn't say yikes. cocaine for breakfast you gotta do it you gotta do it yikes that's why you can't pick this song you have to admit

Cole the yikes like it really takes you out in a way where I'm like this was definitely that time of hashtag

yeah yeah ad lib rap anyway the worst part is that it like solos out so it's just yikes

no music yeah you thought that was so you know who's in the studio being like this is about to kill him it did kill him

But anyways, objectively, dude. Okay, anyways, but it's really cool. Like, it's so storytelling and frank where it's like, we get the relationship and then verse two is all of a sudden we're in this future state where he's chasing this feeling. He's doing drugs. He's having sex with all these women all to chase this feeling, all because of this model bra with the Hollywood smile that keeps returning to. But this leads me to my cue my music, Cole's Conspiracy Corner. Oh, hell yeah. All right, let's go.

This is my segment of the show where I give Charles my wildest conspiracy. He tells me if I'm full of shit or not. This one, the question is, is Novakane the title of the song? The rare septuple on Tondra. Oh, right. Septuple is seven. Man, what are we doing, Cole? Okay, let me walk you through it because I actually think, I actually think it's a sex tupy.

For sure. Okay. The seventh one is the one I'm really questioning. All right. So number one, on the surface, Novakane is the anesthetic that dentists use. That's obvious. This is a spiring dentist. Okay.

Number two, Nova Kane, fuck me numb, sex to numb the pain. So he's likening sex with this girl to Novakane. That's, come on. That's in there. That's in there. Okay. Number three. I'm just thinking a little bit.

You know what? Kevin, Kevin is our wonderful. producer, can we get a little sound effect before each like a ding, ding or a d'r? All right, that's going to be, that is, we're good. We're two. You're trying to get to seven, right? I'm trying to get seven, yeah. All right, there's two. Two out of seven. Continue to the third. Okay. So this is where it gets interesting because Nova Kane is spelled N-O-V-O-C-A-I-N-E, but the song title is Nova, N-O-V-A-C-A-N-E. This is, this sets bells off in my head. Why would he change the spelling. So Nova is a star that suddenly increases its light output tremendously and then fades away

to former obscurity. So this Nova type explosion to me is a pretty obvious in terms of like a drug experience or a sexual experience or orgasm. Like, damn, Cole, you having Nova experiences over there? Oh yeah. Shout out. Shout out Mr. Dissect. Anyway, I can see. Wait till I get that channel orange cock ring. Okay, so then, but Nova is also a woman's name. I did some research on this. Specifically, Nova is a girl that shows intense beauty and outstanding intelligence. You can go on Urban Dictionary and there's like multiple.

Wait, what? No, no, no, no. Is that? There is multiple. Are you citing urban dictionary? It's not one. I wouldn't cite it if it was just one definition and like that was the only one. There's multiple people giving this essentially the different wording of the same

exact definition of a really hot girl that it's also smart. So I think that's there. That's another reason for the NOVA. I think we might have to call in a referee. I'm on the fence with that one. Like, I don't. Justin, all right, Justin. Justin, uh, I don't know.

How many urban dictionary definitions are there using it? I would say at least five. And they're all like the top. At least five. You can go right now and check. It's at least four. I would say maybe even five. so it's not like a one-off.

That doesn't make for good podcasting if I think of Urban Dictionary right now. But he says like Brains like Berkeley. Like he's applying this girl's smart and she's got the Hollywood smile. She's beautiful. So to me it's perfect. I'm fucking black exploitation.

Like that girl's a Nova. Like you know what? Like what? All right. Yeah. I've never heard that but I'm going to say this. He's got apparently five people who logged into Urban Dictionary separately. And look at the up votes.

Look at the up votes. I will not. what I will say is you're trying to get to seven let's put this one in like a maybe category and if you need this to get to seven yeah it is a maybe for me I'm on the fence we'll get you

we'll get you across the line if we need this okay so number five cane is slang for cocaine that one's I think pretty easy cocaine is also an anesthetic parallel there pretty pretty clear number six cane spelled c a n e is a crutch just like a woman or a drug being used as a crutch in the situation that's six that is six very logical i think very logical meanings you're not selling me

on the song as something that we should be putting in the nomination category the more you go on but i'll give it to you i'll give so you are currently at five what's the one that you were I need to know the one that even you were like yeah I'm not sure if I can land this one I'm pretty proud of it even if it's like a reach it's a very well researched reach so the seventh possible one

have you ever heard of the synthetic psychedelic drug 25B dash N-B-O-M-E no okay so this is a designer drug that came out in 2010 its nickname was Nova. In the song, he says, I can't feel my face.

What are we smoking anyway? He says, he asked that twice. So if we look at 2010, if we look at the Coachella that he mentions in here, he says, I went to see Jay-Z, went to see Z-Trip. So the only year that both J-Z and Z-Trip that performed at Coachella was 2010,

precisely the year that this Nova drug was introduced as a designer drug in the streets. So Nova, what are we smoking anyway? The answer is Nova. Hey, yeah, we got to disconnect your Wi-Fi, bro. You're done. You're cut. Like, you're a couple. Like, here's the thing.

I need your wife to monitor your YouTube habits because you're just like one or two YouTube videos away from going down a dark, dark path. Hell no, bro. No? Okay. No. No. That's even a reach for you, bro.

That's a pretty wild coincidence. I'll just say it's a pretty wild coincidence. You got five. Like, five, okay. We should ask if we're going to be honest, was getting the five worth it? Because I hit the song more now than I did go in. Okay.

See, you're surprising me left and right on this season so far because I thought for sure Nova Kane was going to be your. It was my jam. It was my jam back then, but we grow. We grow. We ain't playing Novakain in the width no more. Okay. All right.

Can I go with the superior single off this? Okay. All right. I knew you're going to go here. Go ahead. All right. Sit down. Sit down, Miss Sassy.

All right? The superior single of Nostalgia Ultra is swimming. Like swim good still sounds good in 2020 in a way that Novocaine doesn't. So it's funny. Swim good, I would never say, obviously, it was a big hit. It's obviously the second one that comes off of this tape that everybody pays attention to. And I really think shows that Frank can do this consistently because when you have Novocaine, you have Swimgood, you have thinking about you, very, very quickly, that's three hits in a row that can put you on the map. but I didn't realize just how well written this song was

until I sat down with it and I was really paying attention to the writing. And I was just like, for this man who's this young to write a pop song essentially, that is this existential and weird and dark is not something that's easy. Because if you go through the story of this song, it is essentially this narrator who has this broken heart, who's driving this Lincoln car into the ocean, and he's swimming away from this mysterious thing that's bigger than him.

And the song to me almost unfolds like this suicide note, the protagonist, he's fresh for a funeral, and it culminates with this voice saying, don't die. And I just think the metaphor and the symbols in this song are so perfect. When he says, kick off my shoes and swim good and swim good, take off this suit and swim good. When you're listening to the song, it does not evoke this idea that someone is going to essentially off themselves after this heartbreak. But when you listen to it, you're just like, oh, okay, you've really snuck the cyanide pill.

It's something that otherwise sounds very, very sweet and forward. I remember listening to this on the radio. And that is what I think is the genius of Frank at this point. If I'm actually putting on my critic hat, if you take Novakain and Swimgood as two parts of the same hole, I think Frank Ocean is tapping into something that Drake was tapping into, the weekend was tapping into this whole new generation of R&B stars where this new drug culture, especially peasant. pills, especially drugs, whether it's like lean, all of these things that future would go on to wrap about a lot. It wasn't that these were all new drugs, but it was a new way of discussing them in terms of just like, what do you think of before this? Most songs about drugs are either about selling them or about like weed, like Snoop Dog, the fun of it all. And Novakain and

Swimgood both have this tinge of either running away from pain, running away from this catastrophic love, trying to numb yourself from it, trying to not feel. And that's what I think attracts me to swim good so much is because this could have been the dumbest metaphor of all time. You're just like, oh, Frank is just in the water. He's going to the ocean. But when you really, really sit down with it, you're just like, oh, no, okay, there is, there is something dark in Mr. Ocean here. And yeah, I just love it. The beat as well sounds aquatic in a way that like, if you, A lot of people try to do aquatic beats and they sound terrible. If you're not Timbalin, don't do it.

And I think that this pulls that off. This pulls the like the Noah 40 Shibib. We're going to act like everything is underwater. We're setting a vibe shit. It does it to a T. Swim. I want to ask you, Cole. Why is Swim good in your, in your estimation, lesser than Novakame?

I'm not sure. I think they're pretty equal in my mind. I can see why someone would gravitate more towards Swimgood just because there is some like cornyness to Novacane some of those bars. And it's more like of a fun song or at least sounding songs where Swim Good is, yeah, it hits a lot of marks that you would want in a song in terms of like it makes you feel good. There's a good vibe to it. It's also very deep, intellectual, very expressive. Like it has everything that you kind of would want in a song. So I don't know if I would say one or the other.

I was, to be honest, I could have been, I would have been equally happy picking either Novocaine or Swimgood. I knew you were going to pick one of them, so I strategically just let you do that. Stop saying that. You make you sound like I'm so basic, dude. No, but like, here's my question about it I wanted to pose to you. Because like, definitely on the surface, it's about this heartbroken guy that's suicidal, that, you know, driving his car into the ocean. But is that just like a metaphor for a symbolic death where actually the song is. celebratory. It's like it's about him moving on from this person that broke his heart finally. You know, there's a lot of momentum in the song. He's driving. He's he's moving forward. The ocean, water is like very traditionally a symbol of transformation and rebirth. So is it more like a

liberating kind of death more than it is a literal death. So I absolutely think you are not wrong. the reason why I don't think it's completely positive note is that it ends on a question mark. It doesn't end on an exclamation point, which is also what makes it weird as a pop song. Most pop songs like Swimgood, even if they had the same lyrics, would end on the triumphant note of like he is swimming away. This is a metaphorical death in the same way that like strawberry swings. We start off in this dream that is almost like an apocalypse of nostalgia of this love. this dream world is crumbling that he has to wake up from. And I think this similarly has a, what are the last words the don't die, don't die, don't die. That is not, I wouldn't say that

that's a positive note. That is almost like a, it's a very mature way of stating essentially that just because you swim away from this catastrophic love, just because you kind of have this dead, this ego death over it, does not mean you're making it out the other side unscathed or making it out at all. He's leaving it up to interpretation, which is a very Frank Ocean thing to do. No, yeah. Yeah, maybe he's doing both. And that's kind of the mystery of the song is the point, right? It could be both. Just like a breakup could be both. And also like, I mean, in my mind, he's saying the word ocean. Like, does this, is this the transformation into Frank Ocean? No, no. All right, I have, if it is, I wouldn't be surprised because he's in his early 20s and that's a very like early 20s things to do. Because here's the thing too. You love eyes wide shut. I finally watched it for the for the first time yesterday. And it made me understand Frank Ocean so much more. Because it definitely is like you're going to you're going to see a Kubrick film when you're a teenager. And depending on which one you might like, you might.

like make your entire personality around it. And watching Eyes Wide Shut, like, he has the sample of Nicole Kidman. Oh, yeah. Yelling at Tom Cruise about like, you don't understand women. Women want sex too. And that's, it's like, sure, dude. Go off. What do you, why do you think really quickly, why do you think a movie like Eyes Wide Shut was

catnip for Frank Ocean? Well, I mean, there's a lot of layers. to it and what it is on its surface is not really what it is. It's a sex movie, but it's really not. It's about intimacy and it's about authenticity. And the mask motif is like everything, right? Like, when that crazy sex orgy is happening in eyes wide shut, they're all wearing masks, which is like this metaphor for like human desire and unrestrained human desire. And the mask that we actually wear is a real face when we're out in the world. That's what Tom Cruise's character represents is like this really naive guy that doesn't think women have sex.

fantasies and doesn't think that tries to pretend that, you know, when he's, you know, doing his doctor stuff, like if a beautiful woman walks into his office, that is just business, that he never would ever have a sexual thought about a patient. And it's like Nicole Kidman's all incredibly frustrated that he, that he's not, she's not getting the real version of her husband. And that's essentially like Tom Cruise trying to take off the mask. That's the journey of the out or the story. I'm getting off on a tangent here, but that's so Frank Ocean.

Like, just like that's catn't knit for me, I think someone that's putting so much thought into stories, storytelling and layers and getting to the heart of human emotion and expressing that through story, like eyes wide shut is perfect. Like a lot of Kubrick films are like that.

So I would, I would think that's the reason why he's a track. I mean, even if you think about how this album starts off with a dream. What is eyes wide shut? What is the inciting incident? It's Nicole Kidman's character telling Tom Cruise about this dream that she had with another man. And they end the movie, essentially coming to this conclusion that dreams are dreams. Sometimes when you wake up, you have to move on with your life, even though the reality of the situation is you still want

all of those things that were in this dream world. And these two kind of coming to this understanding of each other. And to me, if I'm a young Frank Ocean, especially who on this project is not yet comfortable, completely revealing that he had this transformational love experience with a man, that in a lot of his music, he has compared to this dream state, this nostalgic summer love that he had to wake up from. He had to move away from. I'm just like, I could see how eyes wide shut would be like, oh, no, this is like the perfect. Or even like the idea of wearing a mask, you know? Yeah.

Like he said coming out and doing the letter was extremely liberating in the same way, changing his name to Frank Ocean with liberating. Like you can tell during this time he was going through a very, as we often do in our young 20s, like very transformative, finding out who he is and just embracing that. So yeah, it makes perfect sense why it would be attracted to. Sorry, you went off on that tangent, but I wanted to, I just wanted to talk to you about this.

I love it. Because I know. I'm almost 99% sure that we're both going to agree on the third song. Are you saying? I don't think so, man. You don't think so? I don't think so. This one is like, even for me, a little bit of a wild card.

Is it my turn? Is your turn? No, it's my turn. Yeah. Okay. So, wait, if it's a wild card, can I guess then? It's a very close between two songs. But yes, go ahead.

If it's a wild card, you seem like an MGMT. Oh, no, no. I actually don't. No, I like MGMT, but I don't think Frank's version's better than the original. It's not better, but it's dope. Wait, okay, then I was totally off-paced. What is it? We all try.

I still believe it then. My wife's going to ask me why. Because I just don't believe we're wicked. I know that we said what I do you believe. Your face. I wish people could see your face. Oh, what? Okay.

Let me rate this in. Okay. Can I just interject right here to make a guess? Is this keeping in line with the Kubrick thing where Frank Ocean denies the moon landing in this song? Yes, the very popular conspiracy theory that Kubrick actually staged the moon landing. Okay, we all try. You don't like this song? I've never thought about it.

Like, it just, it's a song on the tape. This is, all right, please tell me, I'm actually very, very fascinated. What do you find in this song? Okay, so it's admittedly not the best song on the album. It probably won't be my pick, but I had to talk about it. Also knowing that you're probably going to pick what I think you're going to pick for the next one. I just wanted to give it a little bit of love. I don't need to go on a length of it.

I think mostly, this is a, okay, this is a rare case for me where the music or the lyrics and the message of the song transcend the music and the actual song itself, where I'm so connected to the message being said, even in the flawed expression of it, which is very on the nose and very unlike Frank, especially in retrospect, some of these lines, I just love, and it's kind of a sucker spot for me, this notion of trying of essentially what the song is saying,

like there's all these things in the world, all these fucked up things in the world, all these disagreements about religion or war or abortion and all this shit. But at the end of the day, underneath, there's a commonality between all of us is that we're all here on Earth trying. No one knows what the fuck we're doing on Earth. We're all floating on this planet like in the nebulous of space and like no one knows what the fuck we're doing. We can try to pretend that we do.

We can put on these masks or these these, these, these, these fronts, but at the end of day, everyone is just trying to get through to push the proverbial rock up the hill. And just to have a chorus saying, we all try, conceptually just cuts me to my kind of philosophical, empathetic core that I just, I just, I don't know, I can't justify the pick in terms of like, it's the best song. But the message of it, I really love. So that sell you on it, Or at least give you a little bit of why. No, I understand now why you like it. You have access to a part of your heart and humanity that I closed off a while ago.

So I understand this. This is why you're my friend. Like, I'm just like, oh, man, this is what real happiness looks like. Cole, no. It's really not. It's actually the most, like, depressing view of the world, but it's also, like, optimistic. It's the choice to be optimistic and to see everyone as your. yourself. I guess my issue with this song, and this is what I also have to remember, is like,

this is, if anybody's just like, is this an album or a mixtape, this is a song where I'm just like, this is a mixtape. This is somebody trying something. And Frank would go on to say, to talk about social issues. Like, Nike's is a perfect example. Nike's is a song that at first I hated until I, like, really sat with. And I'm just like, this is a very, very, very, brilliant way to tackle a very heady subject we all try

is just a 20 year old taking like smoking a joint and being like dog what's up with abortion bro you know I'm just like

I don't know early 20s I don't know if you got the range to really I think that's why I like it because I do like that it's like messy and very transparent like it's just here's what it is I'm not masking anything in ambiguity, here's what I think. And like, I don't know. Again, I can't justify it too much,

but I did want to give it some light. I would just say if I think it's okay if some singer's basket. Like, it's, it's like Ebro being like, dog, Drake don't talk about black issues. I'm just like, yeah, we don't need them to. We don't really, I don't need militant Drake. I don't need Drake starting the revolution. In the same way that Frank, I think ambiguity, if we've learned anything from his greatest songs is one of his strengths. Like just don't don't put too much of a ball on it.

This isn't a bad song though. This is like a, this is a fine song. I was just surprised because I was just like, there's another song in this tape where I'm just like, this is cold core.

Like this is quite literally cold core. Okay. Well, let me just point out this one last detail because it's pretty cool. So we all try very optimistic kind of point of view. Okay.

The next song on the tape is optimistic by Radiohead. We don't hear any of the vocals, but The song is called Optimistic. And then the chorus of Optimistic is, you can try the best you can. You can try the best you can.

The best you can is good enough. Like literally the song, We All Try's message is in Optimistic by Radiohead, which is on the tape. And then we get, you know, what's a radio head? Bitches just want Joe to see. And then that goes into songs for women, which I want to talk about at some point.

But let's get to your pick. Okay. I was sure. I was just like, this is no, this is no offense to your people, but I'm just like, if there's one thing that white people love, they love themselves some Hotel California. You know what I mean? I know that this goes off. I know y'all be like, y'all be alone at your white parties. You'd like, yo, somebody turn on Hotel California. So for Frank to have, this is, this is only something that you can do when you have the unbridled like ego of a young 20 something is to be like, I'm going to take Hotel California and I think I can reveal something new about the

song because nine out of 10 R&B artists, you're just like, dog, you're high, get the fuck out of here. But similar to Strawberry Swing, I think Frank Ocean actually did have something to reveal about Hotel California and himself as an artist. Going back, American Wedding is just not only such a good song, but it is a song that is really, really, really hard, in my opinion, to pull off. I took a walk with the palm trees as the daylight fell, sangri in the canteen. So it's about this narrator who's reminiscing about this rush teenage marriage at a courthouse. then after the wedding

the bride turns in what sounds like a very very problematic term paper on Islamic marriages and like Islamic weddings

and arranged marriages yeah then she asked for an annulment and the husband begs the wife to stay then relents and it

it ends on this dower note of oh if you stay you'll probably probably leave later anyway. It's love made in the USA. On the surface, American wedding seems like such a almost very like sweet and cloying song if you just are listening to the voice, if you're listening to the instrumental. But when you actually pause a song and tap into it, it is this young man having

very, very complicated feelings about marriages in institution. And I think that it's the best song on this project about the thematic underpinnings of this. Like, I think there's two types of nostalgia and nostalgia Ultra. There is the text, there's the physical of it, whether it's radiohead or the Eagles or the interludes that are named after video games like Street Fighter and Soul Calibur. But then there is this coming of age. It's teenage marriage. It's reminiscing about fathers that you did have and fathers that you did have.

fathers that you didn't. And I think American wedding does the best job of pointing towards a feeling that I think so many young people feel where a love seems so pure and burned so hot that we can do it. We can do what 50% of the people in the United States never can. We can get married and live happily ever after. And slowly through the song, Frank is just kind of like in a very, dark and humorous way, unraveling that and poking holes in that. I even think like the details of this are so sublime. The fact that now, this is my, can I do a conspiracy? This isn't really a conspiracy corner. Like, I think that this is maybe text, but I was like listening to this and was like, wait, I'd never picked up on this before. So the teenage couple is broke, right, Cole?

Yeah, he says you can have my Mustang. That's all I got in my name. So in terms of implying poverty, it implies poverty right but he sings got a wedding band done that I just might die with and then he talks about a purplish blue tattoo a tattoo

that is like going is either infected and like I was just like oh this is such a smart way to talk about like this broke teenage couple who can can barely afford a ring so one of them gets a tattooed ring on their finger that's in

infected that they're going to die with. It's just such a little, like a little detail that I never picked up. And I'm just like, this is such a young man writing this. And it just points toward an album like blonde where every single song has that little detail where you're like, oh, this is why you can listen to this album 100 times and walk away with something new each and every time. I love American letter. I was surprised.

I thought, I don't know. You're just. Why? Wait, why are you surprised? American wedding is a good song. People like American wedding. I thought for sure like the white, like your critique or the cliche white thing would just, you would just roll your eyes at this song. No, no, no. I think when I was younger, I was like, fuck American wedding. Fuck the Eagles. Because we also should say that this was a massively controversial song. The Eagles were not happy. It is very hard to find American wedding where at least it was. You can now type it into YouTube. But Frank had. to take all of the songs down. He was not allowed to perform it live. The eagles went after him. And he actually said something very interesting. He said, quote, they threatened to sue if I perform it again. I think that's fucking awesome. I guess if I played at Coachella, it'll cost me a couple hundred

racks. If I don't show up to court, it'll be a judgment against me and will probably show up on my credit report. Oh, well, I try to buy my shit cash anyway. The ass that I release a statement expressing my admiration for Mr. Henley, along with my assistants pulling it off the web as much as possible. Shit's weird. Ain't this guy rich as fuck? Why I see you the new guy? I didn't make a dime off that song.

I released it for free. If anything, I'm paying homage. Like, dog. That's pretty dope. Like, imagine, Mattel Henley this. He was basically like, yo, fuck off.

This is why going back to it in the moment I was just like, American wedding. I think this song's aged incredibly well. Can we ask the other white boy on this podcast? My main man, Justin. Am I bugging or has American wedding aged better than it had any right to? I thought it was a novelty back in 2011, and I listened to it a couple times this week in preparation for you guys discussing the album, and I knew that the song would come up in one form or another.

I like the song. It's a good storytelling song. It's, I got to say my favorite part, though, he kept the guitar song. Yes, I know, I know. He took the whole list of metal, and he kept the guitar solo. Just every single last detail, just took Don Henley off and just put himself running. I like American wedding. I think it's, you know, it's an interesting choice for this exercise.

But I have a lot of affinity in my heart for this song. And I'm not even a big Hotel California guy. Me neither. See, that's my thing. Like, I'd never. Y'all just connected with Hotel California. Y'all just trying to look cool. No, no, no, no.

And that's, but I'm going to agree with you. you in that it's aged way better than I remembered when I first heard it and when I was listening to it this week I was like, oh, this is actually really good. And maybe for whatever reason it connected now and some of the stink of the original Hotel California I was able to ignore. Just the feeling that I get with that song because it is such a popular song. It's, you know, I heard it so many times growing up. Um, and never really liked the Eagles ever, uh, in my life. So, but I will say, I agree. for real

look you're talking to a couple guys right here that love kubrick movie so i assume he also loves the big lobowski oh yeah oh wait so there you go so like at an early age if you get in a big labowski you learn to not are all gonna kill me you aren't i watched the big lobowski wait i didn't get it i was just like this is a version of like whiteness that i just don't have like i just don't have anything for like i watched it probably when i was in high school And I'm just like, I don't know any dudes like this in my life. Then I grew up and I was just like, oh, I get it. Like I get the big Lebowski.

Back then, I was just like, man, this is an undiscovered white man in my personal journey that I have not on earth. Anyway, wow, Cole. I like American wedding. Let's recap because I think we were way more civil, generally, besides me, like, I want to apologize. I went in on you for Novocaine, I was being a dick, my dad. But anyway, we both agree. on Strawberry Swing. Phenomenal song.

Then we had to duke out the biggest songs from this album, the pop songs from this album. Cole picked Novocaine. I pick Swim Good. And then Cole just, he pulled to Cole. He picked, we all try for his third pick. I picked American Wedding. Before we pick the best song off this album, the last onstanding. I want to give us like, let's do a.

one to two minute iso-cole. What do you think is the worst song of this project? The song that you're just like, ooh, okay, this is a miss, because I have one. It's songs for women. Oh, songs for women easily. Songs for women was like,

going back to it, I was just like, woo, oh, oh, okay. It's unfathomable that's a, that's a Frank Ocean song. It's, every time I listen to it, I'm in disbelief that Frank Ocean made that song.

It's like a parody song. It does. Like it's like, Like a trace songs like type just like cliche R&B from like the 2010s. I'm just like this is a song

like Chris Brown would sing. Like was he trying to be meta on purpose? Like what is it kind of a parody song? Or do you think he's being sincere about it? I just can't tell. Like if it was a parody song, it's almost like not satire enough to where it feels like that.

And to put it on the album is just I don't know. It's such a weird spot. It's like if that song was removed, I feel like that the mixtape would actually get a lot better, which is weird to say. So I think the song definitely sounds like one of those demos that you like, yo, this is hot.

And for years, everybody's just like, yo, songs for women is the one, right? Because you're thinking maybe Usher sing songs for women and he gets it across the board. Like, you need a big name to sell something that is this inherently cheesy. Yeah. And I think Frank just, if I'm doing like conspiracy corner, I'm just like, this is one of the songs that he would play for years. We were like, yo, that's the hit. And he just throws it on there. And going back, I'm just like swim good.

Even Novakane are so far superior to the song that is easily trying to be a radio record. Just, ugh, this is a song for women is not great. I want to attack you on one. Nature feels still good. Is it corny? Like even in the moment, we're singing over MGMT corny. it's just the way it grew on me this past week

because when I first re-heard it I was just like oh this just doesn't work for me and then a couple more listens like yeah I mean it's it's good it's not as good as the original though yeah if you're gonna tackle that big song it's like you know arguably strawberry swing

he made a better version arguably Hotel California made a better version they'll be tears Oh are you Damn the whites are going to I know they're going to attack you I would rather

they're listening to American Wedding than Hotel California. But damn, Cole. But I know it's a classic song, but what's harder then? Do you think it was harder to pull off a Hotel California flip or to pull off an MGMT flip? Yeah, you would think it would be the Eagles. Yeah, yeah, because it's such an iconic song. It's like, oh, you're going to take that on. You better really nail it.

And he does. And his voice sounds great over that instrumental. And it's, this and it plays into the nostalgic theme. It hits all the points. And so MGTMT makes very specific music. And I don't know, just the way that it comes in with that. What's he says, like, I've been meaning to fuck you in the guarded. Like, whoa, yeah.

That's a wild first line. I was about to defend it. And then I was just like, damn, Cole is right. That is, yikes. All right. You know what? All of them can't be winners here. All right.

But with that out of the way, now that we've made a case for what songs from nostalgia Ultra are in contention for Frank's best of all time. Each of us must choose our last song standing. The song we're bringing with us to the season finale, Royal Rumble. Before we reveal our picks, though, let's go to a quick ad. All right, we're back. And it's finally time to reveal our last song standing from Nostalgia Ultra. Cole, you won our trivia challenge with 0.5 points. What are you picking? I already know. I can guess. It's easy. I know what you're doing. But it's not. Okay, here's the thing

I've been thinking about all week. I just need a little consultation. Can the song from nostalgia ultra that is in contention for Frank Ocean's best song be his remake of a pre-existing song? Like, conceptually, I'm like, probably not, right? So I don't want to set a bad precedent. I'm not saying we are doing Lil Wayne next.

I'm not saying that we're doing that. But are some of Wayne's best songs over other people's beats, yes. So I'm not saying that you can't. But it does get dinged to points. It does. Like we're just,

if we're being real, if we're being real critics about it, the song almost has to be not only the best off nostalgia ultra, you have to put it up against Channel Orange, blonde, all the Lusies, all the remixes.

And I'll put it to you this way. Is there any sample or, flip off this project that you can put up against Frank's best words. Well, because I'm debating between Strawberry Swing and Nova Kane. You know, I want to pick Strawberry Swing, but I think conceptually I just can't do it. Strawberry Swing is better. Like, we can say for the listeners, like, Strawberry Swing is better. I agree with you, but you have to pick Novigate.

Yeah, I think I do. And I feel good about picking it. It's really important to his catalog and his story. It's a good song. It's a big song. So I'm going to pick Novikane. All right. So you guys already know where I'm going because strawberry swing.

I will say I would rather listen to Strawberry Swing than almost anything off this project, but I can't pick it. And I think American Wedding is for my money the best written song off this project. But I just have to go swim good because. it's been a very long time since I've listened to like American Wedding and Strawberry Swing. Every once in a while I'll just throw on Swimgood to be like, let me just see if it like it still works and it always does. And I think Frank Ocean's songs like Novocaine works in a vacuum. Like Swim Good works in a vacuum.

I don't know if American wedding, like you have to explain so much to somebody for them to understand American wedding if they weren't there for it. And I think that is the thing that to me dings. it where it's like swim good. I could be like, you'll put on swim good. I could put up swim good against pyramids about thinking about you

anything. Yeah, yeah. And it would hold its own. So it has to be swim good. Yeah, I feel good. All right, Justin, we have our two picks. I pick Swim Good.

Colpick Novakane. Who do you think won this episode? Who do you think picked the superior song? This is tough. This is tough. I've got to be honest. This is a really tough one. right now I would personally rather put on swim good

I think it's a more enjoyable song to listen to in your day-to-day life to the point that you were speaking Charles about occasionally throwing it on over the past handful of years and still liking it that's how I feel about swim good but I'm going to put it on a playlist here and there Novocaine is I think probably a better written song and I think it's more integral to the Frank Ocean experience

so I apologize Charles I have to go with cold with this one y'all are cowers y'all never go with your heart y'all always go with what the people want y'all always go with what the people want it's fine I'm the only real one left okay now I'm just talking with you I love you Justin

All right, that's our show. You want to plug all the people that make this possible cool? Yeah. So all the listeners out there, you guys can vote on your favorite song, the song that we should have chose or that if you want to agree with us, you can go to the Spotify page episode for this episode and vote. There's a poll there, make your voice heard. Hit that poll. Also, if you want to, you know, talk shit to us on social media. Don't talk shit.

at Dysak Podcast or at Charles X. Holmes. Don't tell us what Tell us what we got wrong. We've got right. And now we get to reveal next week's album, which is kind of an album.

Charles, you want to tell them what we're doing? Yes, we're next, we're doing a grab bag episode, okay? We're doing endless, which at this time felt endless, which is kind of an album,

kind of a fuck you to Def Jam. And then we're, we're pairing it. We're doing Lucy's, basically all of the accurate inner girls, the, ooh, what's another Lucy? Chanel, provider, lens,

Danielle, D-HL. Oh, man, the remix is everything. So we're doing a grab-back episode. You have to, because I will actually say, I'm excited for that episode. Me too. Because I think some of Frank Ocean's best songs

just never make it to projects, which annoy. Like, Chanel, just being a song that he threw out there one day, is a fucking crime. biking. I mean, I'm really excited. Oh, man. Do you like lens? I, yes. Let's not scroll too much.

We're giving away too much. We're giving away too much in the next episode. It sounds like a throwaway episode, but it really is not. I'm really looking. It's one of my, I'm most excited for this episode aside from blonde. So check out that next week. Thank you to Justin Sales, executive producer. Thanks to Kevin Pooler for doing audio production. And thanks to Beirocratic for the great theme music. All right, we are back. Cole, we're doing another cultural exchange. Who wants to go first?

Should we read? Let's recap what our assignments were. I want to hear your, your thoughts first, though. All right. So can you tell everybody the name of the song that you gave me? Yeah, so I assigned you minimalist composer Steve Reich's 18, music for 18 musicians, which is minimalist piece. Hopefully some of you guys checked it out.

Charles, what did you think? Oh, I love this. Really? Yeah, I was in in theirated though when I was listening to it And there was like one point where I was just like, I'm one with the music right now Like that's how I felt like I forgot I was listening to a song

And I was just like this music is a part of me Like it just it was so beautiful I definitely You were spot on when you're just like you compared it I was like what's a comparison And you compared it to an LCD sound system Like even though it is like classic music It gave me the same

surge and like palpitating groove of like a dance record that it was so minimal and I was just so surprised that you could get something that is that complex in classical music that still sounds so so modern it did not sound like oh this is what your grandma listens to it it sounded like something you could just throw on in a place just like oh shit like yeah plug it in my veins Am I tripping? I was actually very surprised. I'm thrilled by this. I love that you loved it.

I think it is very accessible for how kind of wild it. It doesn't sound wild on the surface, but the premise of the music is pretty crazy. It's just like one note, two-bit notes, you know, stacked on top of each other, which you wouldn't think would amount to much, but it's really emotional and it goes places and it does entrance you in a way that I think very few kinds of genres

as a music can do. And so, yeah, the dance, the kind of droning, trans dance music comparison, I think is valid. So that's beautiful. I was surprised. You, dog, you killed it. You killed it, all right? All right. Now, I know you're not going to be positive about my pick.

And I need Justin to come in. Last week, I gave you my first tape off the PBR and B syllabus. we explained what that is essentially Cole missed out on a lot of music, a lot of R&B, he's not a fan. So I'm like, y'all, I'm going to give him a syllabus of all of the tapes, the music

that people were bumping, the creme de la creme. I gave him for his first assignment, party next door, number one. I know he didn't get it. I know it wasn't his vibe, but I have to understand why Cole. Okay.

Well, not really necessarily, I'd probably say not. Not in his demographic, so let's just start there. Not his intended audience, so let's just like, you know, that could color the conversation from here on out. I will say that the production, I get the appeal of the production, probably especially at this time where you are getting this just kind of weirder, different approach to R&B back, you know, the beats of it where, yeah, there's a lot of the instrumentals. I was like, oh, this is like this is a great vibe. like I get I get that part of it. The singing and the lyrics like, holy shit, dude.

Come on, Cole. Come on, dude. Like, Cole. Come on. The lyrics are dope, bro. Like, this was my, this is my villain origin story. Give me, like, okay, what's like your favorite track? Like, give me a, give me a quote.

Like, what's your third too? There's the basic bitch answer, which is like, objectively the song that is the best, even though I put this song in the same place that I put like oldie. and like black thoughts like hot 97 freestyle, which is if you post this on any social media platform, I'm going to judge you. Like, stop. But break from Toronto is a perfect song.

Like, it is a perfect song. But welcome to the party. Come on. Like, welcome to the party is a jam, bro. Like, what's good, curious? To be honest, like, don't make a mill. These are jams. You weren't turning up.

um no this is my favorite debut album of the decade you understand that right tell me why though like really tell me why it is because it is perfect this is 10 straight songs 30 minutes in and out all killer no filler just the type of like dirt bag shit shit talking like real demonic hours like you up to tap into a special type of place that most humans aren't willing to go. I would never want to hang out with party next door. P&D, bro, no, but they're like, come on. P&D1 and P&D two are some of the most important musical artifacts of a generation. This is, this is like foundational. You can't put on a song like, What's Good Curious without me just like, woo! Like, I just, just talking about it gets me fired up. Justin, like, Justin, what is it about P&D?

one that you think Cole isn't really understanding. It's, well, I mean, as you're saying this, I'm thinking that the weekend trilogy walked. So P&D, one and two could run, right? It's like, it's that, just that, it just captures like this dirtbag essence in a way that's like really accessible, though. I mean, I don't know, man. Cole, did you like the production at least?

Yeah, I did. I did. Yeah, genuinely, a lot of the B3. interesting. Yeah, and like I think that what's interesting is I don't have the production credits in front of me, but you know, this was, I think, actually, Charles, would you say that P&D is the most successful non-Drake OVO artist? Absolutely, without a doubt. Like, without, here's the thing, party next door wrote some of the biggest Rihanna records of the decade. Like, that's true too, yeah. Easily. Right. And also, who's his competition, Majid Jordan and, uh,

Hey, whoa, I like Miji Jordan. Like, let's relax year. Okay. You know what? Justin, for my next one for you, Cole, I'm going to let, I'm going to let Justin do it. Justin, you know where I'm going with this one. Are we doing it? You got to set him up.

You got to give it to him. This is our second on the PBR and B syllabus. This is from one of my favorite R&B singers ever. He never, he never made good on all his potential. He never did. the mix tape? We're doing the mix tape. We're doing the mix tape. The mix tape. The mix tape, not the show. The hip, too. You're showing me they underclothes. Maybe on Twitter like you, you tore it up. You tore it up. You tore it up. It's on Spotify. It's on Spotify. They put it on Spotify last year. So it's

It's either last year or the year before, but late nights with Jeremiah, not late nights the album. It's a difference. And if you are so adventurous, you can eventually do late nights, the album. But you want late nights with Jeremiah. All right. I'm putting you on. Here's a thing. You're going to preface it with or anything, or should I just go in blind?

Just going blind. We will explain everything. But let me just tell you, you're going to be playing this around. actually there are some songs don't play this around anybody uh you have two small children uh yeah don't play the song don't play the song don't play the song with little wayne around anyone but hey you have a nice pino you know at night turn this on you're gonna set a vibe call come all man i'm so who man by the end of this man you're gonna be an obri's angel you're gonna be totally in my camp all right do you think do you think i like this more or then then party next door

Oh, Justin? Yes, because there's this kind of traditional hip-hop element that comes in and out of this mixtape. Also, I just think Jeremiah is more accessible as a singer for a first-time listener than party next door sounds like auto-to nonsense if you're not on the right vibrational frequency, which means you're not an asshole. So, like, congratulations. Like, you're not an asshole call. You're a very nice man. And I think that that is the thing that is like blocking you from really liking P&D is that you're just pure and sweet and good.

Jeremiah's voice is Andrew. And Joe. He's a far superior singer to PND. No shots of P&D. But Jeremiah is one of my favorite singers. Sounded more of more my speed. All right. So my pick for you,

we're going to stay with Steve Reich because I can't just let you listen to music for 18 musicians and think that's what it is because he's way, more of an artist than that and there's much more challenging aspects to minimalism. I gave you like the minimalist for dummies. You gave me the basic bitch one. I gave you the basic bitch one. I can't scare him away. Yeah.

So now I'm going to challenge you a little bit with one of my favorite pieces he wrote. It's called Different Trains. It's a three part, kind of a sweet. I don't know how to describe it other than it's like a documentary in music, like but pulled through music. So it tells essentially the story of like World World World II through this

beautiful and very challenging piece. You'll see the first movement's called America before the war, second movement's called Europe during the war, and the third movement's called after the war. So there's this whole very ambitious arc to it. You'll hear voices. You're going to hear train samples. It's nothing like

you're going to probably ever hear or have heard before, different trains. That's what, that's Steve Reich. We're going, we're going with it. Are you excited? You're very skeptical face right now. Is this scaring the hose musical? Oh, hell, yes, it is.

I'm just getting started too. You're like, you can be like, it's very challenging. I'm like, dog, can I play this around my girl before she's just like, dog? What is happening, bro? Don't worry. I play a lot of R&B music around her and she's just like, like what is what are we doing? So you're saying like this is a this is a alone day, sit down with it a little challenging,

got to pay attention. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's kind of long, so maybe you don't have to like sit through the little thing, but definitely throw the whole thing on. Definitely give that first movement a good listen. Can I throw it on the sex playlist? Maybe actually, a certain kind of. A certain kind of.

Adventure. All right, cool. We both got our assignments. I'm so excited. Yo, and we'll be back. Thank y'all so much. Woo! Peace.