Dissect - Titi & Cole visit the Louisiana Plantations in Lemonade

Episode Date: April 30, 2020

Hear S6 co-host Titi and Cole in conversation about their experience traveling together to the Louisiana sugar plantations seen throughout the visuals of Lemonade. We’ll also learn more about Titi, her educational background, and both Cole and Titi’s history with Beyoncé’s music. Listen to Titi’s podcast Dope Labs: https://open.spotify.com/show/3pCF6hcNsAHKlKAillCOuZ?si=DZ-hYwjPQ0OS5oW39bjODQ. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From Spotify studios, this is Dysect, long-form musical analysis, broken into short digestible episodes. I'm Cole Kushna. And I'm Titi Shodia. All right, welcome to a special episode of the Dysect podcast. I am here in New Orleans with the co-host of Season 6 of Dysect T.T. Shodia. How are you? I'm a little... We were just talking.

My voice is a little strained because we went out to a dinner last night that's a little loud, busy so um but yeah no that's how old we are the we're our voices are tired from just having a dinner tonight not partying in new orleans just talking of yeah yeah um so we'll get into why we're here in new or i live here but we've kind of traveled here to meet together and um kind of lemonade and biance bringing us together in that respect but um yeah i just wanted to do a more of a conversational podcast with you to kind of introduce you to the audience of Dysect. By this point, they've heard you on a probably a few episodes. We haven't launched the season as we're recording this.

But yeah, likely I've heard you, you know, a couple episodes now. And that's all great, but also wanted to kind of showcase who you are a little bit more. So people can really get to know you beyond just your voice on the podcast. Yeah. Yeah, so we're going to kind of just talk over who you are and your background, how we met. Then we're going to talk a little bit more generally about Beyonce and Lemonade. And then we'll get into why we're here in New Orleans and kind of describe our experience and what we've been doing in the last couple days.

So, yeah, I'll just toss it to you, I guess, to just introduce who you are, give us a little bit about your background because I think most people aren't going to really be familiar with kind of your extensive background. And then we'll kind of go over how we met. But yeah, so tell us a little about yourself. Okay. Well, I'm T.T. Shodea, and I am a first-generation African-American. My parents are from West Africa.

My mother's from Ghana. My father's from Nigeria. My educational background is that I got a bachelor's in material science and engineering and a minor in mathematics from Penn State. And then I went on to grad school where I got a PhD in, mechanical engineering and material science and also a master's in electrical and computer engineering. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's say, let's, so I don't know what any of that means. So let's give the listeners a little bit of context about kind of what that means. Like material science,

I guess, probably is your specialty. So what's that kind of detail about? So growing up, I always said I wanted to be a chemist because I was really interested in like the composition of things. But I think material science, it takes it kind of a step further into practical applications of chemistry. So like if you think of really anything that you interact with, there was probably a material scientist that was involved in it. So even something like these microphones that were talking into, there was probably an acoustics engineer that worked on it. But a materials engineer would probably design kind of like the metal grading and what it's made of to make sure that it works optimally. I worked with nanomaterials.

So you can, you don't find a lot of nanomaterials and a lot of things, but in everyday things you can find it in lotion and makeup and things like that. And choosing the correct materials so that things work at the highest level for whatever application that you are using it for. So, like, even things like a seatbelt, how it's woven together and the material that they use so that if you are in an accident doesn't just like snap or break and it stays like together, those are materials, engineering. Yeah. All the stuff like people like me would probably never think about. But I would imagine your view of the world is much different than mine or most people is because you're kind of, I would assume, like you're kind of, yeah, you take a different perspective on like, what?

what exactly is. It's probably how the way I listen to music is the way that you make it like objects and stuff. Absolutely. Like when even in our short conversations that we have about music, I'm like, oh, wow. Like you are definitely a scientist when it comes to that and an engineer when it comes to that because I mean, you think of it on levels that I've never thought of it. Yeah. Yeah. And that was kind of the interesting thing about kind of why I wanted to work with you. Like I really like that different perspective. Like we were kind of talking about yesterday. like for me dissect is an approach it's like it's specifically approach to music but the dissect process is really a universal process of like here's this one thing and let's like really dig

into it like let's peel back the layers let's like find the materials you know that are making up this piece that we kind of you know someone like you just kind of will listen to and enjoy. But if someone like me is able to kind of decompose the lyrics and tell people why you enjoy it, why is it resonating so much, here's the specific techniques. And I was really interested in trying, you know, I could have got another musician to work with on dissect, but that doesn't really interest me because, you know, I wanted the kind of the dynamic and diverse perspective. even outside the gender and the racial stuff, it was like more about, yeah, it was just really interesting to me to have also this like more scientific approach to it too.

Yeah, so we can talk a little bit about how we met, but maybe let's talk about your podcast first. So really how I found you in the beginning was your great podcast called Doep Labs. Yes. Dope Labs is a podcast that I have with one of my best friends. Her name is Zakiya Watley. We met when we were in grad school, when we were both. struggling and depressed all the time. But our friendship definitely brought us a lot of joy. And we had a lot of fun. And one of the things that we really loved doing was explaining our

research to each other because she has a PhD in genetics, which I know nothing about like the biological sciences. And she doesn't really know much about engineering. And so we loved talking to each other about our work. And then we also love talking to people like at the bar about our work. And when we would go out, we would find that people, when they found out that we were PhD students that they really wanted to ask a lot of the questions that they've had like what felt like their whole lives that they didn't get answers for. And they would ask us questions like, you know, what is buoyancy? I don't really get that like and things like that. Yeah, neither do I.

We could talk about that. And we would find like really fun ways to take sometimes very complex scientific ideas and communicate it to them in a way that they could understand. And so at one point we said, oh, you know, we should this, we could do a podcast, you know, because this was before, you know, all the podcasts around. Everybody was saying they wanted a podcast. And then we ended up applying for Soundup, which is a Spotify, a sponsored program and 18,000 people applied. We were chosen as a finalist and then we were one of the three winners at the end. So we got some money to start and then dope labs was born.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's another thing that interests me too is like it was kind of a kindred spirit in terms of like what dope labs is doing and what dissect is doing, which is essentially the same thing. You guys are taking scientific topics, finding a common entry point, usually pop culture reference to like get into this you know educational aspect of the show but doing it in a way that applies to everyone that everyone can understand and I feel like that's really what I'm trying to do dissect is like here's music that you love that you listen to all the time here's why you love it

here's the technical here's some of the technical things of why you love it and how all these pieces essentially fit together to create this larger thing so I think that was also another kind of reason like you know to be honest like I don't really really know the moment, like when I thought of you, because I was, you know, I was looking for someone to bring in. I knew I wanted to co-host this season. It was kind of just the next step, kind of the next evolution of the show like last season. We had Femi as the co-writer, who did an amazing job. And I thought I wanted to do something similar for this season. I love what Femi brought to the table. But I also wanted to take that a step further and get another

voice on the show. And Lemonade, as we're going to talk about, is so obviously rooted. in an experience that is not mine that I thought it was equally important to get another voice on the show specifically for this season. So yeah, I was trying to think about the moment that I thought of you, but really, I guess we met first.

So I listened to Dope Labs since the first episode, really, and I was always a fan. I loved that. I was with Spotify because I'm also with Spotify. And then we got to meet pretty briefly, but we met in, where was that, Palm Springs? Palm Springs. So Spotify had like a, I don't know what they call it, an offsite. Yeah.

So, you know, there was like this kind of meeting, central meeting place where a lot of the employees in our department came and did some activities. And you guys, Dope Labs was, you and Zakeer were like the featured speakers. Yeah, we had a panel. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, oh, shit, they're here. Like I definitely got to introduce myself. So I introduced myself at lunch briefly.

And then you said that you had listened to dissect before. So that was cool. Yeah. And then like you're making it seem like I was cool about it. I was like, I am such a big fan. I'm such a big fan. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's cool. You're wearing a dissect hat, I remember because we're giving out dissect hats there. But yeah. So when I was like kind of searching around for people to bring in, as soon as I thought of you, I was like, oh, perfect. And I didn't even really know why. but like I just knew it was going to work. And I think we kind of talked about this yesterday,

but like when you listen to someone's podcasts, like you kind of feel like you know them a little bit. And I've been listening to you guys for so long that I just kind of like trusted you from the get go and I kind of knew your approach and your tone and everything like that. So yeah, that's really why I reached out. And then like that's why I have fast forward a few months. And that's how we are here. But so yeah, I think we can kind of go into, get into Beyonce a little

bit. I wanted to start with, just like your relationship with Beyonce, like, when did you start listening to her, what your kind of general thoughts are about her and her kind of evolution over the years, that kind of thing. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, Beyonce is someone who I don't even remember life without Beyonce. It's hard to even, like, conceptualize that there was a time in my life that Beyonce was not out in making music. I feel like she's been ever present. But Destiny's child was like huge for for me and my sisters and my friend group growing up um because you know they were a black female group and they were really kind of like breaking a lot of barriers it felt like because they were not just doing R&B they were also doing they were also being featured with

rappers and things like that and they were just taking performing to a next to the next level where um I think prior to to Destiny's child a lot of black female groups, they weren't really dancing and singing, but they took, like, performance to, like, the next level, which I really enjoyed. When Beyonce split off from Destiny's Child, it didn't even feel like a breakup, like some bands,

you feel like it's, like, awful. Yeah. I feel like everybody knew that Beyonce would eventually branch off, but I don't think anybody could have anticipated, that Beyonce would have become Beyonce, like who she is now where Beyonce, it's like, no one can name their child, Beyonce. Yeah, right. It's over for that.

It's over. Like, if you name your child Beyonce, that's a bold move. And that child will probably not live up to that name, and that's going to be sad. It's like naming your child Madonna or something. Yeah, right. Like, she's an icon. And I feel like every album that comes out, I'm never disappointed. and there's always so much range.

And you could see her growing with each stage of her life from going from being, you know, a teenager to being a woman, being a married woman, to having children. Like she incorporates every stage of her life into her music. Like there's no huge disconnect that you can see with some artists where they have different stages of their life, but they have people that are writing their music for them. And so they just sing the lyrics that are there. But Beyonce, I think she makes a very conscious effort to show the progression in her music, even like, you know, when she got married, then it became like, she's talked more about,

like, her sexuality and things like that. And so that's been really cool to see. Yeah, I think that's like, I've had a, I mean, I wouldn't say a similar experience, but I listened to Destiny's Child. I used to, like, it was kind of always a guilty pleasure of mine. Even, like, I remember that song, what was that? what's that song You Must Not Know About Me

What was that song called? Irreplaceable Oh yeah yeah I was obsessed with that song Like You had some feelings I did I can't remember the year that came out

But it was like That was one of my most played songs On iTunes I know for sure that year And it was such a contrast From everything else that I listened to But I loved like Soldier I love like all those songs Like I just

It was even though it was a little bit outside of what I normally listen to for whatever reason. I just really gravitated towards her. But I wouldn't say that I was like a super fan at all. Not really until like I guess the self like four self-titled and then lemonade really kind of sealed it for me. I would say lemonade specifically. Because for me like I always try to well I just naturally guess like view people from like

historical perspective. And Beyonce has used. I don't know if I would call it a formula, but essentially every artist that I really, really admire do the same thing. They get incredibly popular with more traditional pop music of that era. And then once they have a massive following, they flip it and they use their voice and their platform to expand on the genre,

to innovate, to express things that haven't been expressed in that style before. Like Bob Dylan did the same thing. popular with folk music. They turned to electric and that was a big controversy at the time, but it also pushed boundaries in that genre of music. You can say the same thing about the Beatles. They came in as essentially boy band pop music and then flip that. Radiohead did the same thing where they had the grunge alternative rockers that then became this really experimental, innovative electronic music. So Beyonce to me has done that. She's, I would say the music has stayed relatively safe or just more, it's not as experimental as the people that I just named, but I would say just like Lemonade the film, for instance, is such an innovation to the genre.

And I really think it's unmatched in contemporary history, all that is encompassed in this film. And to me, that is like, that gets my ultimate respect is someone that is willing to use. use their platform, take risks, and ultimately, like, expand boundaries. Kendrick Lamar is another great example of that. And so that's kind of how I viewed Beyonce. That's really why I was interested in doing Lemonade, really since the day it premiered. Unfortunately, it wasn't on Spotify for a few years. So I was like, not that anyone told me not to do it, but I just didn't think it would make

sense for a Spotify podcast to do an album that's not on Spotify. Just logically didn't, you know, make a lot of sense. The second it came on Spotify, it was the next season, hands down. It was so easy to choose. You know what else Beyonce has done? She has introduced the surprise album. Yeah, for sure. And now folks think that they can do it.

But not everyone can do that because Beyonce, she's Beyonce. So she can say, oh, I'm coming out with an album today and it'll go platinum. But then, you know, a lot of people who are not Beyonce are trying that and it's not working out so well. Yeah, she definitely innovated that. Yeah. And that utilized, I think she saw or team saw or whoever saw. Like, yeah, it's way more exciting. Like now that information travel is so fast, like, especially with a Beyonce, it's rolling out an album for a month versus dropping it and getting everyone excited and it's hype.

We were just talking about like trying to get new Yeezies this morning. It's like the same thing. It's like you're like sitting on your computer like the moment it comes out and you're trying to get it. And like people just love the hype and the excitement. and the rush of that. So it's like, oh shit, new Beyonce. Like, it's so genius that they kind of figured that out. Yeah.

I mean, this was years ago now. But yeah, so I don't know. I guess like we can talk a little bit about lemonade specifically. I guess I'm interested to hear your kind of first experience with it. If you watched it on HBO that night or if you didn't, like what was your first experience? What was that whole lemonade experience like in the beginning when it first came out? So I think I'm strange when it comes to how I consume music because I like to wait till stuff dies down a little bit so that I'm not influenced by all of the hype around it. So when it came out, I was like, okay, I know I have to see this.

But I want to wait a little bit and not be just a part, like feel like I'm a part of the hype. And so I waited and my sisters had watched it and they were just dying. And so I think I waited like a couple weeks and even a couple weeks later. It was still like the biggest thing. It was on the tip of everybody's tongue. But I watched it and I just thought, oh my gosh, this is unlike anything I've ever seen in my life. It almost made me feel like, you know, when, well, when did Michael Jackson's thriller come out? Was I even born?

But the first time I saw thriller and how it was kind of like this whole long story, I thought that that was so, so good. And it felt kind of like that where I was like, this is something that no one has done before. And it just really shows her, not just her vocal range and her ability to act, which we know that she can do. But it also showed her vulnerability. And it really humanized Beyonce for me, where before it was like, Beyonce. is untouchable. She's not someone that you feel like, you know, you can't be around because she seems like a fun person. But it was just like, wow, Beyonce really went through a lot. And she's just like the rest of us. Like she showed a very, very soft and vulnerable side in Lemonade. So I thought

it was really special. And it was kind of like how we were talking about with podcasting where you just feel like you know the person. And now I feel like I know her a lot better after Lemonade. yeah those i mean that's kind of how we touched on in the the intro of the season was like there was the elevator video which in retrospect just seems so trivial because the way that she flipped that narrative and like was like oh you guys wanted to be this like stupid gossip thing like here's what it actually is like here's what my experience was and i'm going to share it to you in a very powerful and expressive way but also be super vulnerable about about it and then make make the people that we're really trying to kind of spin that gossip wheel to just like look really insensitive

and like just petty, you know, like these are kind of real, you know, I talk a lot about the show over the years about like having empathy generally speaking, but a lot of the time having empathy for these figures who we kind of put on these pedestals only to kind of like see them fall. Like we love to see as a public. We love to see those. We love to lift people up and we equally love to like to tear them down. And I feel like the elevator video, like, Beyonce was pretty flawless, pun intended. Up until that point, kind of.

I mean, like, there was here and there rumors, but, like, that really solidified this moment where you could definitely see some people trying to, like, start that spin. Right. And, like, it took her two years to do, but, like, she came with lemonade and dismantled it completely, you know. Yeah, it almost made you feel foolish, like if you were trying to become a part of that. like the rumors and trying to make it something way bigger than what it was and gossipy. You made, I think, all those people look really silly. Yeah. Yeah, I'm curious, like, I would think our experience of lemonade is probably a lot different.

I would say, and this is me, I guess there's probably two components here. One, I just look at things historically, analytically, like what does this mean for? music genres and, you know, those kind of questions. But also like I'm a white male from the suburbs. So like my experience of seeing lemonade, I would think is much different than yours. So I'm wondering like what, if you could touch on maybe that, like the, I guess the identity aspect of lemonade, how, you know, black females are the, they're featured throughout the entire thing. Obviously for the majority of the time. And just like, I guess just I'm just curious about. seeing that representation, like what you thought about that?

Yeah, I think it was really powerful what she did with all the visuals in Lemonade. I think that, of course, it was deliberate showing black women in a pre-Civil War attire in, you know, in slave quarters and things like that. I think to show the resilience of black women and that to kind of juxtapose these really beautiful black women and these really beautiful, in this really beautiful attire in front of a slave quarter to kind of show how even through a lot of pain that they can still survive and just to remind us of where we came from to be where we are now and the effects of slavery on us as a people. I think that she wanted to show that the resilience that we have now in our day-to-day

is something that is not new. It's not something that we are just learning. It's something that is kind of ingrained in us and in our DNA and in every fiber of us to persevere and to be strong and to come out on the other end better than we were before and to pass that strength on generation to generation. I think that another major thing is black pain and how it's perceived by white culture

or by the rest of the world because, I mean, there's been a lot of studies that have come out that have said that from lay people to people in the medical profession all perceive black people in general to have a higher tolerance for pain, that they can endure more and that they think that it's just a part of who we are. When really it's not a part of who we are, it is a product of our exposure to brutality.

And I think that that was something that she really shone. a very bright light on where it's like we are not immune to pain. We experience the same pain that everyone else does. But we have developed ways to get through it. And those are the things that we were taught by our mothers, our grandmothers, our great-grandmothers, all the way back to our African ancestors that were enslaved and brought to the U.S. Yeah. Yeah. And she does that in a way, I'm just thinking about my own experience. with it in a way that's both specific and universal. Like I've learned so much through this album about other people's experiences,

specifically black female, but also just like I've learned more about the history of slavery, the more about, you know, all the things that if you just do a little bit of research on all these illusions throughout the album, like you're going to, this is really a blueprint for an education. So, but also like, so that's like kind of the specific aspect, but the universal aspect, but the universal aspect like she did it in such a way that like yeah there is this kind of universal triumph of the human spirit almost you know and it's like of course we can we have to get specific about about who it affected and the types of people that it affected but also like I look at it it's like this triumph of the human spirit you know and the resilience of that and so that's again like why the film resonates so

much with me on a personal level because there is all these, yeah, it's like this dual experience of the specific and the universal that she, I thought she did incredibly well. Up next, T.T. and I talk about her experience visiting the sugar plantations in Louisiana. But first, a quick word from our sponsors. So yeah, I guess that kind of gets us into like why we're here in New Orleans. As we talk about on the episodes, Louisiana specifically is featured, I guess, the majority of the film. I don't know, a percentage,

but it's pretty much almost all of it. So we are here to, I guess specifically we traveled to the plantations of the Louisiana, the sugar plantations that run along the Mississippi River that are featured in lemonade. So yesterday we went to the Oak Valley plantation, which is not featured in a lemonade film, but it's essentially along the same.

path that all these plantations lay out side by side basically with each other. We went to the evergreen plantation, which is featured in the slave quarters of lemonade. That's where they're filmed mostly. And then we went to Destrahan Plantation, which are where they're pictured in the trees. There's some slave quarters there as well. Yeah, so we took some tours. We explored just the sites. And yeah, I don't know. Like, I guess we can just get into like the experience of it. I guess we can just talk generally about just some of the feelings that you had when we first

stepped on to the plantations. I don't think you had been on a plantation before. So just kind of curious about what was kind of going through your mind as we were walking around. Yeah, it was really, for me, it was really heavy because as a. black person, you can't help but think about the hundreds or thousands of people who were enslaved on those plantations and the lives that were lost and the blood that was spilled and the tears that were cried and just all of the awful experiences. So walking in the slave quarters and just

trying to imagine what that life is like was really sad. At some of the places they, well, at all the plantations, I think they try and list the names of all of the enslaved that were there. I think they try and be, they try to be deliberate about how they refer to the enslaved as the enslaved because I think now we've come to this new stage when we talk about the history of slavery in America where we don't refer to people as slaves. We refer to them as the enslaved so that it puts the, it puts the owner. on the colonizer or the captors. And which I really appreciated that those little things like that.

But I think taking the tours, all the tours were mostly white people. I think that that was interesting because you, while I'm kind of trying to digest all of these things, I'm also listening to some of the stuff that they're saying. And we went into one slave quarter, which was like an actual slave quarter that was still standing and that they try and keep all together so that people can experience it. And as soon as we walked in, one white woman said, well, at least they had a fireplace. And I was just like, oh my gosh, like, white guilt is real. And she really wanted to make it seem like, I guess in her mind she feels guilty about. slavery and she wanted to make it seem like it wasn't that bad but it was just like so

frustrating because you're looking at this this this this home that at any that at some points of the year probably had about what they said upwards of 14 people living in it yeah and it was how big would you say that place was it wasn't very big it's probably the size of a large bedroom yeah yeah and I was just like you know who cares if they had a fire place. There's also, you know, the beatings, the whippings, the separation from their family, the nonstop working all year round. But so those types of things were, we're frustrating. And it's just like when you think about the children who were born and that were born enslaved and then the children that they have and things like that, you can absolutely see how

it affects the mindset of a people and how they view life and how they view themselves. And it puts into perspective, like even present day, how black people move and shake in society and how and why we beat, why, and I don't want to speak as, you know, the voice of all black people or like black people are not a monolith. but it definitely makes sense why we feel the way that we feel about certain situations and why we behave certain ways like with code switching and things like that, why we do those things because it's just a part of us. And I think that that is another thing that Beyonce was trying to do with Lemonade.

But it's not even just like a social point where it's like philosophical, where, oh, yeah, you would think, you know, if you're a great-grandmother, said this to your grandmother and it's passed down from generation to generation. But now there's actual science that is coming out that is showing that there is socio-environmental effects on the DNA level from generation to generation. So essentially what Beyonce is saying is also being supplemented with actual science to show what they're calling it in the scientific community is weathering and they did this study that went over went from like 1985 to 2016 where they studied people from multiple cities white and black to see their their biological age and then

their DNA age or how how it affects their body and so how social environmental and then racial discrimination, how it affects them. And black people are upwards of six years older than their white counterparts. And so when you think about that and you think about things like women, when they have a child, and we know that when you get to your mid-30s, that's when it's like a little bit more risky of a pregnancy. So imagine a black woman that is my age 32, thinking about having a child and her body because of this weathering effect is actually 38. Yeah, yeah. So that's why we see that the mortality rate for black women who are having a

baby is a lot higher than white women of the exact same age. And those things can be overlaid in different categories. And so it's just, it's really phenomenal when you think about it. Yeah, I mean, Beyonce even touches on like infidelity is a, or not, what word am I looking for? not infidelity. Now I don't know the word. Infertility?

Oh, yeah, infertility. Yes. Yeah. So that's, it's a, it's a topic that is woven throughout lemonade, but is never specifically

kind of blatantly said. But once you kind of dig into the details, it's there. But no, and all that is really interesting. and again that's exactly why I love your perspective because you bring things to the table that I would never have known that scientific aspect. I mean, when I hear it, it makes sense, like, you know what I mean?

But to know that there is science now that is starting to show, prove these things we've kind of known or hypothesized or thought or talked about or being shown on a scientific level is pretty fascinating. Yeah, I mean, the experience for me, I guess, like it was definitely heavy. it was you know you know I obviously thought about the enslaved experience but you also just being human you can't can't help it think about yourself you know and it's like as you know like a white male like you like I just kept picturing myself what if I was born here this color this this gender in this time period like what would I be like and it was like party you wants to

say no I'd be that person that like I'd be going against the grain and I'd be like but then part of you is like statistically that's not true actually like right right it's like I think about that with like even when I think about like Nazi Germany like what if I was born in that era as a German and Nazi Germany would I be that small percentage that was rebelling or would I be like the 99% of the people that kind of even if they disagree they're going along with it because they're fear for the life or whatever it was it's like those are the kinds of things that I was trying to grapple with and like and then it becomes this whole like in least in my mind it becomes this more like existential thing of like who are you at the core like how much of

your environment affects you how you know to what extent how long that you know history time time in place you know parents all like how does how does that all like kind of work into the fabric of who you are and yeah could would you be different or would be the environment be so strong that you just kind of fell in line. Like, and I still really haven't even, I'm kind of thinking this out loud as I'm talking. Like I haven't really came to any conclusion about that, but that's kind of the things that was going along in my mind. And just, yeah, I guess like being victim of circumstance at some point, like the bad luck

of being black in that era, like all that stuff was. I was just kind of thinking about that. There was some like really, like I teared up when I saw the, like, the the restraints for children like Jesus that was like that was a brutal moment because I obviously have kids and you just can't help but think of like again going that same train of thought like what if my kid was black and born into this right and then you're seeing them like put in restraints those restraints were like two inches across so it's like they're for these like three year old children it's like Jesus but yeah so it was like heavy and then there's like this whole

juxtaposition thing that was happening like there was these huge like so much of like there's all these status symbols of wealth that we kept seeing across all three plantations right all the big houses were these like just giant symbols of of wealth and authority and it was like there was so much posturing because one of them was like from the outside looks very grand yeah and then when you got inside it was like really small and narrow and like it was just such a weird contrast because I guess apparently this owner didn't have as much money as some people did so it was like he wanted that facade of of status and wealth but it wasn't actually all the way there yeah but then it's like the obvious contrast of like the big houses to the slave quarters it was like that was such a

visual you know just like just a very potent image of like the contrast between the experiences in this place. And also like just even like the weather and the surroundings were so beautiful. Open spaces, these beautiful trees. But then it's like despite all that environmental beauty, you know this place was just like living hell for some people. Honestly. And it was, yeah.

Because people, I think a lot of people, uh, loved the Virginia live oaks with the Spanish moss and they're very, uh, quintessential Louisiana, I guess. and as I'm looking at them and I'm watching people kind of like taking pictures in front of them and smiling, I'm like how many people were hung from these trees? And that's really all I could think of when I see the Spanish mosque because it's so beautiful but it's almost like the branches of the trees are like crying. And so it's just like a symbol of a lot of pain.

Like even though it's beautiful, there's a lot of pain like in the roots of that tree. and so it was it was really really sobering yeah and i think that's why those trees are like featured in lemonade so prominently i think they're this great representation of that really what she's trying to convey how she said bruised but beautiful like it's like these are the those trees are witnesses basically they're like they're living witnesses of what happened here and they kind of encompass both sides of the story um you know they persisted dawn through time, but also they were, you know, places of great tragedy. So, yeah, I mean, there's a number of those symbols that I feel like Beyonce and her team really thought about

the landscape and kind of some of the objects of these times and really, I thought used them in very powerful and beautiful ways, really representative. And it was really cool to just be here. And just, I just thought that was kind of important for us to do. Yeah, I mean, like I said, like, I mean, I guess I approach each season as like, as a opportunity for education. You know, like, I don't know a lot about these artists or like not or this specific, these specific albums. I kind of like know they're good. I know that they have some things like that are interesting. But like, until you really follow each thread, you know, you really can use.

great works of art like lemonade as like a blueprint for an education and like to me coming here was like one of the the biggest things we could do to like test that idea it's like okay what what happens if we actually go to these places that are feature that are so prominent and what are the types of things that we can learn you know i don't know about you but i probably would have never been here if it weren't for lemonade right and it's like i wouldn't have the experience that we had yesterday but But yeah, if you follow these threads enough, like they really offer, you know, a really great education and the things, at least definitely from my experience, that are so different from my experience that can really at least help you understand the experience of someone else.

Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, did you have anything like anything else that came to mind yesterday as we were like walking through or anything that comes to mind? I think one of the things that stood out to me was to go back to the Spanish. Spanish moss, one of our tour guides, he was saying that Spanish moss doesn't like naturally grow on the live oaks. They're not a parasite. They're, uh, shoot, I don't remember the word. So they're like a living breed. I remember saying they're in the air. It's in the air and then they attach to the trees and then they grow from there. And I was like, what a beautiful metaphor for, you know, racism where it is not something that is, uh, growing. growing from the tree of our culture, but it's in the air and it affects all of us. And so I was like that, I thought it was like really poetic in that moment.

I was just like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's something that Beyonce is really trying to do. I mean, the quote that we have talked about a lot almost probably every episode, really, we quote, you know, saying that she wanted to show the ongoing effects of slavery on black love. of black relationships. And just like the invisible thing that's just in the air, not seen, but felt that has very

real consequences and effects, but not hard to put your finger on sometimes. I think actually Trump is a great example of like someone that is virtuosic, is he like, virtuosic racist? Yeah. He like knows exactly how to say something without actually saying it, which I feel like is this great metaphor for like how racism. kind of works today. Because, you know, it's it's a faux pot to say, well, I guess like, generally speaking,

it still obviously happens, but it's more of a faux pot to say something racist now, but it's like this weird reverse version of code switching where it's like they have these code. This is like there's a code language. Yeah. But yeah, I didn't think about that metaphor, but it definitely makes sense. Yeah, I thought like the, I didn't actually like even put together like all three. tour uh tour guys were white yeah i only realized i tell you said it but now that i think about it that seems a little bit weird i know maybe there's you know black people that do them on other days but

yeah yeah exactly but then there was also this one black woman who she worked at the plant at one of the plantations and she was kind of like doing kind of like a on the side little tour for some people and a white woman comes up and says oh are you the tour guide she says no apparently i'm not qualified. But she had also just previous, just prior to that had mentioned that her ancestors were from, were enslaved on a plantation not too far from there. And so I could tell that she felt offended that she had to kind of like prove her qualifications to be able to be a tour guide when she is a direct descendant of the enslaved and white people get to give the tours. So yeah, I was just like,

I feel you girl. I feel your frustration and your anger in that. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to think now. How would the tour be different if it was led by someone who was black? I felt like they did. There was a conscious effort to very clearly address the enslaved.

I thought they made it a point to do that, which I think we both appreciated. But if it could have been in place from a place like that woman, I think it would have came off more authentic and more, yeah, just more authentic. And I think it would have been a more powerful expression of what they seem to be trying to express. Yeah. But it definitely wasn't as whitewashed as I was maybe assuming that it was going to be. Yeah, I thought so too.

I thought the Destrehan tour was the most interesting because the woman was like older. She was like dressed into like plantation, the formal plantation. Yeah. garments and she just had a theatrical performance to her presentation, which was kind of entertaining. But I mean, she did mention like the 1811 slave revolt, which I was really wondering if they were going to mention that because at the Destrehan, that's where they had the revolt or that's a large part of where it took place. And like that's where slaves, once they were overthrown, the enslaved were decapitated and their heads were strung along the Mississippi River as like

a warning to like future revolts and like I was really interested to see if because that's such a dark I mean I would say that's among the darkest definitely you know um experiences and to hear her address that I thought I was surprised that she did but also appreciative that they are at least acknowledging those the brutality of it absolutely absolutely all right well um does there anything else you wanted to cover that we didn't cover no I think we're good Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It's been, it's been amazing working on this show. I feel very lucky to have been given the opportunity. So thank you for trusting me to be able to do this because I know your fans are very used to your voice. For better or for worse.

And having, injecting my voice in there six seasons in. I hope everybody enjoys the work that I do. Yeah. And I hope that you are happy with the work I was able to. to do. Yeah, you're doing a great job. I think it's been a great experience so far. I mean, we're not even halfway through the season, I don't think. But yeah, we're really excited to keep progressing it and keep working on it with you. It's been, for me, it's been a great experience so far too, and I've been learning a lot from you. And yeah, I think we're putting together something really good this season. So yeah. And shout out to Maggie. Shout out to Maggie Lacey. Yeah, Maggie Lacey. At this point, we just brought her on about a month ago and she's helping

writing some scripts and she's doing an incredible job. So definitely shot out to her. Shout out to Mike who put together some really great analysis outlines for us to use. Yeah, it's been great to get, you know, dissect started as just me and my garage, basically, and just now to have each season I'm trying to grow and do something different and having all these different voices, perspective, experiences, all talking about the same work has been really cool to kind of assimilate into the, these episodes and I think it's hopefully making the show more dynamic and better and not just me.

Yeah, I never thought that doing dissect was easy. Like listening to it, I could tell how much work went into it. But being a part of it, it makes me realize like how much work it is to do this show and how lucky we are to have you steering this ship and being able to consume your work. It's been, I'm a huge fan of the show and will continue to be a huge fan of the show and really love the work that you do. It's really important. Yeah, appreciate that. And shout out Dope Labs, everyone. If you're not subscribed to Dope Labs yet, definitely subscribe on Spotify, wherever you listen. But yeah, well, I guess that's a good place to end.

We'll probably do another one of these towards the end of the season just to kind of recap our experience. I don't know if we can go to Louisiana again, but. Let's want to accuse to come back. Yeah, seriously. We have to. We have to. All right. Well, thank you.

Thank you.