Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 10: Train to Rebuildtown

Episode Date: January 21, 2020

This episode discusses the prospect of a roster rebuild, and why it probably won't be taken far enough.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, everybody. My name is Mike. I'm here with Tommy. Welcome to another episode of Driving the Basket, back after a holiday hiatus. Today's episode, we are going to focus on the prospective, hopefully, rebuild of the roster that seems to be upcoming for the Pistons. Maybe it'll be a shorter rebuild, maybe it'll be a longer one. The team could probably use a more protected rebuild, but it'll probably be what we have come to colloquially refer to as a rebuild on the fly. We'll get to that a bit later in the show. So, quick summary. How do we get to this? point. The Pistons have an owner, Tom Gores, who unfortunately, ever since taking over in 2011, has insisted upon competing every year, or what he calls competing every year, building a quote-unquote winning culture. Unfortunately, as we know, this has not worked out particularly well. The Pistons have zero playoff wins over that span. And of course, they've only made the playoffs twice.

Now, in not having a playoff win over that span, they are one of only two teams. The other is the Sacramento Kings, who also have a very bad. owned by the name of Vivek Granadive. So generally, what this all means, winning right now is that the Pistons have had to do with a bunch of really, really not very good rosters that haven't been able to accomplish anything also generally under the purview of some not-so-good coaches. But Tom Gores has refused to allow the team to rebuild. You know, his number one goal is to see the Pistons make the postseason, apparently no matter what happens.

Now, we may have seen a slight change to this recently. Gores came out The Pistons were playing I believe in L.A. where Gores is based. He came on an interview and said, you know what, we really don't want to be competing

just for the eighth seed every year. So, you know, whether or not he'll stick to that is anybody's guess. But it seemed to signal a willingness on his part to launch into a bit of a rebuild of the roster with an aim

toward making it further in the playoffs rather than simply, like, as we saw last season, you know, best case scenario. Well, last season with a arguably the best campaign of Blake Griffin's career. You had in very good health from Blake and from Drummond and from Jackson, though Jackson did take a bit time to get up to speed.

The Pistons made the playoffs on the last day of the season and then suffered the worst first round beating of all time from the Milwaukee Bucks. That wasn't really much of an accomplishment. Now the Pistons added to the team in the off season. You add Marcus Morris. Great. You got some depth of power forward. He's done.

pretty well as a bench score. As a starter, he was very, very bad. You had Tony Snell, who gives you a small forward. That's about the best thing can be said about Tony Snell, but the Pistons didn't really have a viable small forward before that. He, unfortunately, has been very, very bad. Quietly so, but nonetheless, terrible. The team has been drastically worse with them on the floor. And you bring in Derek Rose, who has been a tremendous upgrade upon H. Smith.

He's just having a fantastic season. And you get some, you bring in Svee McIllick, who thanks to injuries, has made it another rotation and has done well. You get some progression from Bruce Brown. You get some progression from Luke Canard. So on paper, this season's roster may have been able to challenge for the second round. It would have been a comfortable playoff team. Unfortunately, you had excellent injury luck last season. As I said, between, like Griffin made it three-quarter of the season before he really started swelming down.

Drummond was healthy. the entire season. Reggie Jackson played 82 games. He just had fantastic injury luck. You lost Kennard for a bit. You watched Isch Smith for a fairly extended period, unfortunately. But as far as the team's principles went, health was excellent, and that didn't hold. Griffin, unfortunately, never really recovered from the injury.

He seemed last spring. He looked like a shell of himself, a terrible shell of himself when he returned. And there wasn't much to do but give up. on him. Jackson played about one full game. He definitely played in two games. He played one full game. The second game, he could barely even hit the rim with his shots and back injuries are dicey. So he's been out for, you know, functional, he's going to function speaking the entire season. You've lost Luke Kennard for an extended stretch. So more or less, you had that injury look last season and you don't have it this season. And the result has been a miniature disaster. The

Pistons are just an outright bad team. So I got to think that if the Pistons were close to 500 at this point, Tom Gores would not be quite as willing to allow a rebuild, even though anybody, any professional, any competent professional management could have told him and hopefully has told him, hopefully these people have been open with him, that the Pistons needed to rebuild a long time ago and ideally a rebuild that would last a couple of seasons. But here we are now. Andre Drummond is on the block. Blake Griffin's out for the entire season.

Andre Drummond is on the trade block, whether or not anything will come of that. We'll see in the next two to three weeks. The trade deadline is on February 6th. And you've got to think you'll see some other guys go as well. But the Pistons may have reached a bit of a fork on the road. So I'm just going to throw it over to Tommy now. What do you think about all this?

Yeah. Yeah, so right now, I think nothing's changed for me really. The Pistons, they need to rebuild. We've talked about this in pretty much every episode. If Blake Griffin isn't doing what he did last year, everything the Pistons have kind of built to this point falls apart because they were so reliant on him. And now that he's had this second surgery in eight months, potentially season ending, there's really not. no point in building with Blake further. I don't think that he'll ever return to that 2018, 2019 level where he was just doing everything for the Pistons. He was drawing second and third defenders. He was passing out, hitting threes, and he wasn't elevating like he was in his Clipper days, but he was still able to move fairly well.

This whole season, he just hasn't looked himself. not there were times where he looked better than others but he never really came all the way back so I think the Blake Griffin experiment I don't think anybody or I don't think I never considered it to be a winning move but it's pretty firmly a failure at this point I don't I don't know that there's any way you can really rationalize

there are still people who think they can make it work like he'll come back healthy I just don't see that happening I'm no doctor but he two knee surgeries in eight months. I don't think there's a way to rationalize or that it's a smart idea to think of Blake as a big piece of the future. Yeah, I mean, I think an additional problem we have to look at is that when he does come back,

he'll never be able to play with a guy who's high usage and really needs the ball. But, I mean, I guess that's probably the least of the pissment's problems right now. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what you would do with him at this point. He's probably got negative value. maybe hold on to him.

You hope that in a year or so when he's a massive expiring contract, maybe somebody will take him and maybe attach a pick to him. That's pretty far down the line. You don't know if he'll come back and maybe he shows something reminiscent of the old Blake, and maybe then somebody will want him. Right now, I say, hold on to Blake. But as far as the rest of the win now, guys, I would say move them. Drummond, certainly, I would say move him.

I don't know who would really make sense for him as a trade partner. Atlanta is the one that came up in that woe's tweet, and it doesn't really make sense to me for them. One, Atlanta's kind of got a lot of guys who can move up the floor quickly. They've already got a high flyer in John Collins, and while he's not a true center, and he's not the defensive presence inside that Andre Drummond is. I don't know that I would make the trade for Drummond. I probably wouldn't want to give up assets for Drummond,

considering that Atlanta's one of the few teams with a good amount of calf space. They could probably just sign him outright in the summer if the Pistons don't want to make a big offer in there, by all indications, they don't. The other name that comes up is Derek Rose. And I've kind of been back and forth on this one, On one hand, he's a very well-respected veteran. He plays hard every game.

He never shies away from, you know, contact. He's always going straight into the paint. The problem is if you do want to rebuild, you can't give so many possessions to Derek Rose. I know tonight, Seku had a lot of foul trouble. He only played about 20 minutes, but even then he's not getting a lot of touches. and Rose has a tendency to once he decides to go inside, he puts his head down and then a lot of times he does get the shot himself, but you don't want to go through a rebuild where Derek Rose is just getting a ton of possessions

and you're not getting a lot of touches to your young guys. So maybe if the right offer came along, I would say move him. But if we wanted to keep Derek Rose, I would really like him to have more of a pass. first attitude. Certainly, you know, do his thing and get inside and be the exciting player that we all know we can be. But I don't want him to be taking a lot of minutes and developmental possessions away from the rookies and the young guys that we want to bring in if we were to rebuild. Yeah, I would say when it comes to Drummond's, so, I mean, the situation the Pistons are in, either you move the guy now or you risk losing him for nothing.

So I think when it comes to that, I mean, I would honestly say like some people, I know might balk at this initially and say, oh, you know, we have to get X number X assets from Drummond. I think it would be hopefully the front office isn't thinking about it that way. That isn't basically holding out until they get something good because they probably won't. At this point, I mean, you have two sides, you know, you have two potential outcomes for Grumman. Get something, get nothing. you know or you have the worst case scenario which is him opting in for next season

which would just be i mean who knows i mean maybe maybe depending on how um gores is thinking about this maybe he wants to you know pivot and compete again next season we can you know talk about that a little bit down the line but uh i mean honestly if the best you can get for drummond is an expiring deal and a second round pick you do it because you get something also importantly you get him off the roster like at this point the pistons are best off losing as many games as they can. I don't have the highest opinion of Drummond, but he's vastly better than the next guy in line.

So there's your benefit. So honestly, if I were the front office, I mean, I would be engaged in the field right now. So, I mean, I guess they have a little bit of a conflict. It's like, do you wait until closer to the deadline and see if you get a better offer, which is, I suspect what they will do. So, I mean, there are two sides to it.

If I were that, if I were that, would be torn between that and just getting him off the roster right now the business can start losing more. But why do you do it if you're the Hawks? Part of it is that the locker room culture out there, allegedly even by the admission of some players, is horrific. Guys are just completely disengaged.

I mean, the team is just terrible. And the young guys are having trouble dealing with that, apparently just that things are very bad over there. So you add Drummond, maybe you win a few more games, maybe people are a little bit energized. And if you can add him at a relatively small price, and you feel like, okay, this will give us a leg up on keeping him next year.

And who knows, maybe you do great, but Tray Young. but that's why you do it, especially if the price is going to be pretty low, if it's going to be like a watery protected pick, maybe you throw in, you know, I don't know who, but if you can get him for a low price, then it absolutely makes sense even just to audition him. But for the Pistons, I just think they have to get rid of him. It's like, get something and just get them out so this team can be high in the lottery. I would say that, you know, everybody else, I would say there are very few players who should not be untouchable for the Pistons right now. I mean, maybe you keep Bruce Brown

because he's unlikely to draw much anyway. And he's, you know, he could be an important part of the future. I mean, it certainly is a leader. And just, you know, as an overall rotation player, he's the kind of guy you really want to have on your team. Of course, if a big offer comes for him, which it will not. I mean, you want to say yes. I mean, I think you got to deal with this like the Celtics did a few seasons back

when they were rebuilding. Everybody's got to be available. You know, except for certain guys, except for certain assets. Langston Galloway, I'd say, If you can kick him off for a second round pick, do that. He's got no purpose of this team right now at all. Do it before, you know, things start to go downhill for him, which they already have.

Get rid of Marquif Morris. He's injured right now, presumably he'll be back. He's like a $3.6 million contract, easy to trade to another team. And you get a second round pick for him. Great. I mean, you got about a 25% chance of getting a good rotation player in the second round. So, I mean, it's not great. odds, but it happens.

You know, you got to wish you could trade Tony Snow. But who knows? He'll probably opt in for next season, and that's fine if the Bissons are trying to lose because he's been terrible for the Bistons. Good shooter, overall, very, very, very bad player for the Bistons. He's been, in terms of net impact, aside from Thonmaker, the worst player in the rotation, this is what comes to playing horrible defense and being extremely limited. prone to disappearance on the offensive end.

But yeah, that brings us to Derek Rose and kind of the crux of the matter. Though, you know, let's get to that in a bit because that's the question of where things will go next. Who do you think this team should really be looking to keep? And then who amongst the less obvious guys would you choose to trade away? Yeah, I was thinking about this in terms of like who's untouchable. Right now, I would say, say, Kudumboa, that's about it. the other one that I'm kind of still thinking about is Luke Kinnard because his value is probably

fairly high right now. And I know that he's been like a bright spot for the Pistons, but when people talk about this young core that we have right now, you have to kind of think about the fact that guys like Luke and Sveemkeye-Luke, they're probably not going to get a lot better and they're probably not going to add a lot more to their game. You know, Luke was, he was drafted to be a shooter, and he's done that. He's coming in and he's putting up shots, and that's about all you can expect from him. I mean, he's added a little bit of a passing game, but he still struggles to get inside, and you wonder how much better is Luke Kinnard going to get and how much impact is he going to have for a team like the Pistons in the future? I mean, could he be a starter on a championship

team or is he really just like a really good sixth man? And if the answer is you don't think he's going to contribute to a championship team and you think that his value is really high right now because he's got a little bit of hype behind him and he's still in his rookie deal, maybe you move him for the right deal. You want guys who are high ceiling and that you think would work together with other guys. And Luke is a guy that would fit on pretty much any team because he's not ball dominant. He can be a catch and shoot guy. So I think if the pistons can get like a good piece for him

or if they like package him with somebody else and they maybe get a lottery pick for him, I say maybe that's the right move. Same thing with Sveemukai Luke. I mean, he's fun and I'm happy that he's getting these minutes and he's done really well with this opportunity that he's been given. But I would say move him as well. I mean, really the only one who's kind of shown like a really high ceiling

in terms of athleticism and shooting the ball really well, Saku. And I know it's only been four or five games at this point, but the potential is very obviously there. I mean, you've seen the athleticism when that dunk on Thompson. The shooting stroke is really, really nice, super high arc, which is something that shooters love. And I think everybody's pretty high on him.

I think some of the hype is getting a little bit out of control, but I really like him as a long-term piece. I think if he has the work ethic, he could probably become, you know, a starter on a championship team. Yeah, I would say with just to address Seku first. Yeah, he, so the things you like about that, obviously, you know, he's got a great body for the NBA. He's really long. He's athletic. He can certainly play above the rim.

It's like I said, he seems to have a shooting mechanics down fairly well, which is fairly new. Actually, I don't think he was that kind of a shooter in the French League. He's super young. He's got a lot of untapped talents. It's very nice to have that shot first. You know, you never know when guys are going to come in, and they're just, they don't have the shot, and they never will. He's got a little bit of adjustment to do on the spin, I think.

You see some of them just kind of come off the rim very strangely or just miss altogether. But I'd say he looks way better than anybody would have expected. It isn't upside to all the injuries this season that he's been allowed to roll, and it's just going to get some time. He's super raw. He's had a lot of, a lot of difficult defensive

matchups and they had them to done too well with them but that's perfectly fun you know he's young he's got a lot to grow into by all accounts he has a fantastic work ethic you know that's one of the things that was set in the draft he's just

you know he's a joy to work with he works super hard and that's important I mean guys you know I'm not going to go out and compare him to Pascoeak and Giannis you know I'm just not going to do it why do that at this point I mean that's just incredibly premature not that anybody

K, you know, it's not going to have any, it's not going to have the impact if I make that comparison, but it's like, I don't see any reason to do that just yet. But one thing they said about, I think it was Zach Lowe said about Janus is, you know, people thought he'd be good. He had a great body for the NBA. He was super athletic. But nobody knew that he was going to work this hard. I mean, Janus is apparently just an incredibly hard worker. So that work ethic is important. In some way, Sek was kind of like the anti-Stanley Johnson. Stanley Johnson who just came in, you know, sort of resting on the, you know, his athletic laurels that had gotten him through high school and college.

His shots sucked, as we know, again, it never improved. And he wasn't willing to put in the work. So, but none of us want to remember Stanley Johnson right now. So, yeah, it's been fun watching Zeku play. It's fun to watch kind of a sort of personification of hope, which is something that this, you know, it was a quantity on which this organization's been very low for some time. so yeah why don't you uh you know anything else you like to say about second yeah um i think just this is just outside of all the stuff that's going on with him it's been really

nice for the fan base as a whole to have something to get excited about and i think that's something that people were just waiting for and that's another reason why i think the the fan should or the organization rather should consider rebuilding because I mean the stands are empty the arena is empty and for the first time in a long time we have something to get really excited about there's always a little bit of hype behind rookies but sake who's really kind of showing us something and I mean the strategy of the last 10 years of just trying to build with very little cap space and, you know, late first rounders and mid-first rounders, it hasn't worked all that well. And I know people are going to say, well, Sakeu was the 15th pick.

It's not typical to find very good players that far down. Your odds of getting an all-star, I believe, are it's 50% are taken in the first five picks and then the other 50% obviously in the next 55. So when you think about where would you rather be? The choice for me is clear. It's you want to be on that top five. If you're not going to build on something this year, why would you want to continue to win, you know?

Like that's why I was kind of confused by the takes from last year where it was like, well, we made the eighth seed and Blake's playing well. Maybe we'll build on this. Maybe next year we can, no, I didn't, I don't buy that. I saw that team as there's not a whole lot of room to grow there. I mean, Blake was already playing it the best he's ever played. I didn't think Drummond was going to get significantly better. He's played better defense this year.

And then I didn't expect our rookie Seku to be able to contribute significantly. I don't think the org did either. I mean, like they've said on the broadcast, Seiku was actually almost about to head back to Grand Rapids. It's these injuries that have kind of created this opportunity for him. Like, you think about where we were. You back? Yeah. You think about where we were just at the end of last year.

I mean, there wasn't a whole lot going on. I mean, Luke and I showed out in the playoffs, but there was not much cap space to work with. The Pistons did fine with what they had, but I didn't think they were going to up their win total from last year. So for me, it's like, why are you still wasting time with this roster? You know, it's a 500 team. Maybe they make the playoffs.

Maybe they don't. And with the injury history, I just didn't see the point in trying to build on this foundation. Yeah, I mean, I would say that, you know, I agree. I mean, what has been done for years and years is just the symptom of a very poor organizational decision-making. Pardon me. Yeah, I mean, this team, if it were healthy, at a very definable ceiling of maybe like a fifth or sixth seed. But that would require that all the injury. I think last season, basically, people were very encouraged by the very good injury luck.

and it was improbably good fortune to have Blake Griffin that healthy and Ritchie Jackson that healthy. So you had your three principal players, I think, between them, between Drummond's Griffin and Jackson missed like to injury, maybe like eight games plus the games that Griffin was load managed. So, yeah, you're right. We never would have seen this. And we never would have seen Seku because he's not good enough to play in a rotation.

of a team that wants to win right now. I mean, you hate to say that. Right now, he's probably, it's like, you know, if Blake Griffin were healthy and Marquis Morris were healthy, second would be the third best choice, probably. You know, he looks very unpolished, and again, that's perfectly fine. He's 19, and it's a lot of fun to watch him play.

But, you know, if you've got three power forwards and that's what you're looking at, you're probably going to, especially if you're, certainly if you're Dwayne Casey for all of his reputation, developing guys with his mandate, make the playoffs, you're going to stick with the veterans. But back to something you said about Luke and R, I got to agree as much as I like Luke, you know, and he is a capable player who, as you said, will fit in anywhere because he can shoot.

He's got some limited playmaking abilities and able pick and roll guy. I agree if you get a good offer, you got to move on from him for a couple of reasons. Number one, it's just like, you know, he could be a good sixth man. I'd say that's where he tops off, especially if you can play point guard. The worry you've got to look at right now is his knees. I think he's on his third knee injury. He had a knee injury that caused him to Miss Summer League and kind of be late to conditioning for his sophomore season. And, okay, this would be his second, actually.

He's just, he's ever-curring issues with his knee. I think he had issues with this past off season as well. And he's been walking over the knee brace on the bench. And of course, now he's missed several games. So you've got to worry about a guy who's developing, you know, the chronic issue in the lower body. You know, and at this point, if you can get an asset for him, you want to unload him before that kind of becomes a conspicuous problem,

where teams are like, yeah, he's a good player, but maybe, you know, we don't feel quite as high on him because he's got a real recurring problem here. Even in his early 20s, if you get to your third knee injury, people are like, whoa, you know, unless you're the Pistons and, you know, you're desperate, unless you're the Pistons general manager and you're desperate for your job, in which case, you trade for a gap with the history of knee problems. But two of them actually, Reggie Jackson has issues with knee problems, but of course, it had been an issue since college, but there was no indication at that point that things

we're going to go south so quickly. So I'm not going to blame Stamping Eddie for that. Griffin, of course, not just knee other problems as well. But that's, you know, people have been over that. I mean, obviously nobody should be surprised at this injury, but, you know, we've been all over that. So, yeah, I would say if you can trade Luke, for example, like if you're very lucky and you get that, you know, weights, you get that lottery protected Nets pick, for example, from the Hawks. And I believe the Nets will probably make the playoffs. And you can package that with Loup to get into the teens somewhere.

You know, the low teens may be brilliant, in great shape. And if somebody went straight for him, great. Otherwise, I just keep the guy. He's a useful bench player. I think he'll top office as shooting specialist. I don't think he'll ever really get his pick and roll game going. I just don't think he has, you know, maybe he'll be a passer. But, you know, if you're no threat to score at the basket and he's not, I just don't think he has to know us for it in the NBA.

You know, being in amongst the trees, so to speak. I just don't think he has the game. He doesn't have the wingspan, certainly. but you can do it without a wingspan if you, without a good wing span, if you've got the acuity for it. It's more difficult, but you can do it, but he can't. So basically, you've got to stop driving or you've got to pull up, you get a pull-up game from mid-range, rather. And he's been obbly resistant to that. But I don't think you get much for him, and it's always helpful to have the shooting specialist off the bench.

So I think he would stay even in a hypothetical everybody is available rebuild. And it's like you said about draft stock. Definitely your chances of getting an all-star are drastically higher in the first five picks. Like there's a site I'm looking at right now, actually, that I've looked at quite a few times in the past, that list your chances of getting a star. And certainly top five, it's just drastically higher. At the 15th pick, yeah, you can say, oh, yeah, there were guys, Kawhi Leonard and Janus and Teddicole and whatnot. It's just, it's not likely.

you've got like a one and four shot roughly of getting a starter, you know, consistent starter at the 15th pick. Seku, if he is just a good combo forward going for, you know, moving ahead and he doesn't pick him a star, it's like great. The Pist, you know, maybe he would have disappointed, but the Pistons have still gotten a really good value at the 15th pick. As much as Luke Kinnard is pilloried for not being Donovan Mitchell, who was picked right after. And Luke Kinnard at the number 12 pick is still a very good value for what he's provided. So like you said, you can't expect to get great players, you know, in the team. teens. But let's look back to Derek Rose and whether or not you should trade him.

And this brings us to kind of a disturbing aspect of this potential rebuild, which is that Tom Gores may not be willing to go all the way with it. There are some indications that he wants to keep, he and accordingly the front office, I'll just go with the front office at this point, which is an extension of his will, obviously, as the owner of the team. Though I will say for Ed Stefanski, he seems to be more willing to stand up to Tom or us than Van Gundy was. But, you know, I don't know what goes on beyond the scenes, so maybe that's unfair.

But by certain accounts, they want to pivot straight from a rebuild into competing again next year, which would be a fucking terrible idea, excuse the language. And that's one reason why they might keep Derek Rose around. Now, Derek Rose has been effective. He's in the conversation with six men of the year. He's fun to watch. the Pistons won't really have a point guard on the roster going into next season unless, you know, aside from Rose, if he's still around,

unless they pick somebody in the draft. Here's the issue. Okay. Number one, you can't half-ass this rebuild if you really want to succeed. Maybe you go into this draft and get, like, the first overall pick. Great, fantastic. Maybe you can come back and compete next season. But your roster right now isn't that great? And who knows if Griffin will be back in strength and it will really be back and look like his old self.

And who knows if you can stay healthy, these injuries take a progressive toll, especially when it comes to your knees and humans, your muscular, where it comes to musculoskeletal issues, it's going to be most primarily in the knees in the back. And once you develop problems there that become chronic, it's unlikely that they will be fully good ever again. You know, I'm not speaking at professional level, but, you know, is somebody in some education on this. Sure, you can heal. but if you're a sports person and you have recurring problems in the knees in the back, I mean, those are the big problem areas. This is the price of the humans pay, us humans pay for walking upright. So somebody with the recurring knee problem is likely to stay the same or get worse.

I don't know the particulars, but it's like you've said, it's not a good look, especially in a guy who was already chronically injury-grown. But there's also the issue that this upcoming free agent quest, is viciously weak. Like, Andre Drummond will be a top five player in this class. Every team is, and this is one of the reasons why the Pistons expiring deals, we're never going to be that valuable, is that teams are, nobody is hoarding cab space for this summer.

Teams are all hoarding cab space for 2021. So what do you do? You go in and throw a max deal at Fred Van Fleet. It's like, that sounds like a terrible idea. He's a good player, but he's not a great player. You know, Toronto will probably try to keep him anyway. I mean, T.T. apparently loves it there, and Kyle Lowry's in the last year of his deal, I think.

Correct me for wrong. I don't think he's been extended. I think he had a one-year extension. I don't know if it ends this summer, though. It might have been that he was supposed to end this summer. It might. Yeah, so, I mean, it's just, I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure that they'll aim to keep him in any events, you know, by, like, by all accounts. So, yeah.

Actually, I believe he's, Kyle Lowry is expiring. But whatever the case, it's like, who are you going to go out when Damar de Rosen is likely to be, to be the best player in this free agent class? You've got Damar de Rosen, Gallinari, drumming like Bogdanovich. He'll probably, I would say, get moved and be extended by somebody. Whoever trades for him, apparently, I don't know whom that might be. They've contacted the Lakers about Kuzma. The Kings have. it's just you can't reload this summer.

The best thing you can go out and do is exactly what Joe Dumas did. You can go out and get really subpar players at a premium price. And then you're just, you know, training yourself the treadmill again. And that's what I'm afraid is going to happen. Even if they don't go in and sign players, it's like you, like go all the way. Like I've likened this to what the pistons have been doing for so long to, and this is very fitting, I think, given this team, it's like you have an athlete, who has a nagging injury that's lowering their ceiling considerably.

And this athlete, or this athlete's manager, whoever, the attitude is, no, I refuse to take time off to rehab and miss out on, you know, on, you know, competing this year because I want to compete right now, you know, I'm injured, but I want to compete right now. And I'm, you know, I'm not going to be able to win. But, you know, actually, I'm just not going to accept that I'm not going to be able to win. I'm just, I want to compete right now and I'm not going to take this break. And it's like, in basketball, it's like in any sport, it's like sometimes you have to take a step back, take step forward. Either that, you have to get incredibly lucky in the draft. Yeah.

So what do you think? Do you think we actually have a legitimate chance of seeing a rebuild here? I'm not sure. I mean, if it were me, I would do everything so that five years down the line you can really start competing. A rebuild. that's the difference between a rebuild and a tank. Rebuild, you might make moves to get younger. You ship out some bloated contracts. Maybe you take on young guys that you hope to develop. That's a

rebuild, retool. A tank would be what I would do, which is where it would just sign a bunch of, you know, unknown young guys, some good high character vets. And you give all the developmental minutes to the young guys. And then you drag up. with ideally a top five pick and then you give that guy a lot of opportunity in minutes. Maybe that's where a guy like Casey comes in and he makes the guy earn it and that would be ideal. But I don't think that's what the Pistons are going to do. And there are a lot of reasons to take that route. One of them being, you know, you need to make the salaries work.

Rookie extensions last three or four years. you want those all to kind of kick in three to four years down the line so that right before those first two or so rookie extensions kick in, like assuming that you do draft well and you get like one or two really good players who are going to need a max extension pretty quickly. You want to use, you want to sign some nice bench players before that extension kicks in so that you have young players who are on heavy contracts, but before those contracts kicked in, you've already signed a decent bench. Because once those extensions kick in, your financial mobility, like your ability to sign

a good bench in free agency, it goes out the window. And that's one of the business issues. They keep trying to make, like, they've made good signings this summer, but you can't expect that every summer. there are so many little things that need to work out. Everything needs to kind of culminate into one big, perfect playoff push, championship push, for you to reasonably expect a championship. Like people talk about, oh, well, we'll make the playoffs, and then maybe we'll build from

there. There's a huge talent disparity between us or whoever's in the AC, the Orlando, and the Milwaukee bucks, and we saw that last year. The league is kind of splitting up like that, and that all the bad teams are like, all right, we're not competing. We should be terrible. I saw a stat earlier today. Only OKC is on pace for a record in the 40s. Every other team is on a pace for 30 or lower, 30s or lower or 50s and higher. That's where the league is at this point. I don't think the pistons are going to do that. I think that they're going to try to rebuild quickly. I would really hate to see that. It's encouraging

that they're thinking moving Drummond for a draft pick. Loge said that it was that Brooklyn first rounder, lottery protected, but that probably won't matter. I think Brooklyn will stay seventh seed, and that's good. But if they do end up standing a guy like Fred Van Vleet, they do keep Derek Rose to try to make the playoffs, then all you've managed to do is shed Drummond,

and you're right back on the treadmill, which would be really unfortunate. fortunate because then Saku gets a year older, he gets closer to an extension. Luke is going to be signing an extension soon either with us or he leaves and you probably don't get to keep him or you don't get any value out of him. Maybe somebody just makes a bigger offer than you're willing to make and restrict a free agency because the pistons have kind of painted their way into a corner and then they can't, they don't want to exceed the luxury tax.

There's all sorts of, you know, issues that you kind of kick the can down the road. Now you have to deal with them and it just makes your rebuild. that much harder. That's why I always advocate for a clean, clean slate, move as much money off the books as possible so that you have the ability to maneuver. You have a lot more options in terms of signing guys. Maybe you find a guy in the G League who ends up being good like Christian Wood or Robert Covington, high value guy. You don't have to give up any assets for him. That would be ideal for me. And more than that, you need to make sure that you're... finding guys that work well together.

One of the things that people point to when they talk about, oh, we don't want a tank, we don't want to rebuild is the Sixers. You know, they were the ultimate tank, and you can't recreate their tank because pretty much all of their rookies missed significant time in their first few years. I think Ben Simmons missed all of his rookie year. Joel Embed missed a couple years. I think even their current rookie, Zaire Smith, it might be this year or last year. He's missed significant time.

You can't expect that because you had these really high-level prospects, and they're sitting on the bench. So then you suck another year, and then you get another high pick. You can't recreate that. You don't want to rest your rookies. That's not what you expect to happen to the pistons. But what you do want is to make sure that those guys, the guys that you draft are the ones that are getting all those developmental minutes.

You don't want to try to do some instant rebuild thing because it's just not going to work out the way that people think it's going to work out. You can't make these moves and you can't rebuild if you think Blake Griffin is going to come back at 32 and contribute to your young team that still needs time to grow. You know, all those things need to work out. The salary, the timeline, everything needs to work together so that for like a three to four year stretch maybe you're really competing. and everything is working well together so that you have a real shot at a championship. Everything needs to go right, especially for a small market team that can't really reasonably expect to sign a superstar in free agency or Ler one. Even the only way that's going to happen is if we're already a contending team.

Like some superstars, like tired of losing and some other small market team. And they're like, all right, maybe I can get a ring here. It'll be good for my legacy. That's the only way that's going to happen. the problem there is that that requires a lot of foresight. And I don't think that's something that this org has. I mean, if they really want to keep Rose just so they can get back into the playoffs next year, I don't see them having the foresight to really do this thing the right way.

I say the right way. I mean, the way I would want them to do it. I just don't think that's going to happen. I agree. I mean, an additional issue with Rose is that you have one less asset because I think somebody would give up something maybe you wait first for him, and you also win more games. So it's a double whammy. I mean, it's about you to say, yeah, as far as superstars go, yeah, it's hard to make,

it's going to be hard to get them to come to Detroit in any events. I mean, it's just, it's a big advantage to be Miami or L.A. or New York. But, yeah, I remember that was one of the, that was one of the, the positive state at the time of the Griffins rate. It's like, oh, you're never get a player like this, you know, to come to Detroit. It's, you know, this is what you, you know, you hope you can, you know, get a guy like Blake Griffin here. It's like, you know, this is why you have draft picks. You can get a guy like Blake Griffin here or whatever.

It's like, I don't remember exactly how it was put it. It's like, no, you look for Blake Griffin on a contract like this. You look for a guy on a contract like this who is here at the right time and is on, you know, a reasonable contract and is ideally not incredibly injury-grown. just the mere act of getting a star in the city is not going to make all your problems go away. And obviously we saw that pretty clearly. I think, yeah, so basically, I mean, I don't think we'll ever see another five-year rebuild for any team ever again, just because the lottery reform also, like you said, the Sixers were really an anomaly. You have a team like Dallas who really were at it for about two years before everything came together for them.

I mean, they deliberately, you know, tanked before, you know, the 2017-2018 season. I mean, it was pretty flagrant even if Mark Cuban hadn't come out and actively set it and gotten fine for it. Rick Carlyle, you know, in the fourth quarter of an enclosed game would just put his benchwarmers in, and they would lose. There was one game late in that season in which with the benchformers, they almost beat the Pistons, who were trying to win. Yeah, that was back when Van Gundy was playing Reggie Jackson. for no apparent reason beyond, I guess, trying to run the record up in a wait season when he couldn't possibly make the playoffs.

And Jackson ended up having to rehab the entire summer. But whatever, in any event. So, yeah, I don't know if I go as extreme as, you know, trying to, trying to even be a competitive team five years down the line. I think they could happen a little bit more quickly than that if they do it right. But here's another thing in the East. It's like you said, I mean, it's gotten polarized. I think you have six teams in the East right now who are, very significantly better than the Pistons.

The Bucks, obviously, of course that could change if he honest leaves. I don't think he will, but the heat, you know, the Bucks are a great team with a great coach. The Heat are a great team, a very good team with a great coach. The Celtics are a very good team with a great coach. The Raptors are a good team with a great coach. The Sixers and the Pacers are not quite as well coached, but they're both quite good. I mean, the Pacers are sure the Pistons have beaten them twice, but, uh,

That's a good matchup for the Pistons, but also there's no Ola Depot. And he's going to be back. And, you know, they're 23 and 15 without him until apparently be back at the end of the month. And then you've got the rest of the conference. The Nets are in the eighth seat right now. I think, you know, who knows? Maybe if Kyrie comes back, they'll be better. And he should be back soon.

But Durant will be in next season. So you've got another team that's. significantly better than the pistons. So basically now you are literally fighting for the eighth seed. Like maybe the nets will be in reach. Maybe, maybe if Durant doesn't play well. And, you know, he's a guy who doesn't really depend on explosiveness. And he had an Achilles tear on his non-shooting foot, which is an important distinction.

But it's very possible next season. It's like, it's hilarious Tom Gores. We don't want to fight for the eight seed. Well, you know, if things pan out for the nets and the other teams don't get worse, and I don't see any reason why they will, then that's all you can reasonably hope for after like a mini rebuild. It is completely pointless for them to do that. And it's, yeah, it's like I said, you got to commit to going all the way. And with these pistons, I mean, you just don't, you don't have the means to rebuild on the fly again. And yeah, it is a lack of

foresight. And it's a complete and utter and brutal traumatizing lack of foresight that this team has shown for the last decade that has this where we are now. And again, it's like you said, the arena is empty. People are not showing up for these games. People did not show up to see Blake Griffin. They did not show up, you know, even when he was all NBA last year, they weren't coming by to see him in this super mediocre team. And just the fan base has been leached of hope from these just terrible last 10 years.

The only hope we've really seen was three seasons ago. you know, when they made the playoffs and played against the caps, and it's like, yeah, you have a young core and you can sign some guys. Of course, Van Gundy botched that. But you look at the Red Wings, they are horrible. I mean, people thought they would be bad. They are comically bad. They're on pace right now, though, you know, statistically speaking.

There's, I don't remember what the stat is. There's basically a luck stat in the NHL. You know, it's one of their advanced metrics that's basically, you know, how the team played versus how you could kind of expect. So, I mean, there's some indications the revenues get a little bit better. But if they don't, they'll have, I mean, they're on pace for the worst record since the lockout. And that's fine. You know, it's an org.

They know we're not going to compete. So we might as well be really bad. I don't think we have much choice in the matter this year. But there's hope because the team has a vision. They've got a capable general manager, Steve Isam into the helm. and they got themselves into the same situation as the Pistons by trying to remain competitive. We got to make the first round. We got to make the playoffs.

And that culminated, you know, in Ken Holland, who was, in my opinion, an incredibly overrated general manager, who never took risks, never made trades to reload on young talents in a league in which the salary cap is hugely more punishing than it is in the NBA because it's a hard cap. every team right now, aside from one, I think aside from the Hawks and the NBA is, is over the cap right now. You can't go over the cap in the NHL except for temporarily because of injuries. So it ended with, you know, the final season, you know, the first one when they didn't make the playoffs. Ken Holland signed a bunch of terrible contracts for guys. It's like, okay, well, these guys will keep us contending for now. And that didn't, and they have these terrible contracts on the books.

But there's hope for the fan base. You've got some good young players and you know what direction you're taking. The pistons have no direction besides we want to compete right now in a way that's not going to produce an effective product. If you want the fans to come back, you have to give them one of two things. Hope. Actually, I'd say three things. An exciting product of some kind, which the pistons have not had for a long time. Hope in the form of ideally young players.

players who will develop. You see the fans going mad about Seku just because he's the first exciting young player they've had forever who seems to have a high ceiling. And ultimately a successful product. That's what you need. You need to be consistently competent and successful in order to maintain your fan base, particularly in a city like Detroit. But unfortunately, the problem starts at ownership.

Starts at a guy who insists we need to compete right now. A policy that has gotten a piston zero playoff wins and only two playoff appearances since he took over in 2011. So it's no coincidence that the five worst teams in the league over the reason past, which should be the Pistons, the Hornets, Sons, Nicks, and Kings are the teams with the most meddlesome idiotic owners in the league. So what are you going to do? I mean, we both know you and I where we want this to go. I guess we can only hope for the best with being reported is that, yeah, the Pistons would

like to win next season, but if they don't feel like they can reload properly in the summertime, then they'll probably just spend next year. season rebuilding too. And I think a two-season rebuild is the best we can hope for him. Maybe it'll be enough. But I think we can just hope that some team knocks piss and socks off with

an offer for Rose, the deadline. And unfortunately, I don't think it'll be the Lakers. You've got Darren Collison coming back. He says he wants to go to L.A. The Clippers would only get him to keep him away from the Lakers. I mean, they've got Lou Williams coming off the bench, a point guard there. And Cullison could instantly go in

and be basically the third most important player. If you can play, we get it up last season on the Lakers and have a major role. So maybe the Sixers, I don't know if they can even have a pick, they can trade. But we just got to hope for that. Because if Derek Rose goes, then it's like, sorry, you're not competing next season. You know, that assumes, of course, the Derek Rose stays healthy this season and next, which is the big if. Yeah.

Yeah. You got to love the guy, but, I mean, it's just the case of somebody playing in Detroit right now where there's no reason for him to be there and there's no reason for the business. It's a really good reason for business to keep. So anyway, yeah, we've run up over an hour. So I think we will be calling you quits in this episode right now, but want to thank everybody as always for listening. And we'll see you next time.